Reacting to "Analysis: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" Amazing video!
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Original video:
• Analysis: The Conseque...
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A commentor on the original video said it best:
"Lowering the skill floor is okay, lowering the skill ceiling is not."
That comment in a nutshell helps summarize what i like and hate about smash games, in general.
Melee's got the skill ceiling I want, Ultimate's got the skill floor I want. I don't want to feel helpless until I get good, but I want infinite potential to improve in all aspects, especially combos. (edit: to clarify, I hate L-cancelling as a mechanic so much that I quite literally hinder myself and my ability to excel at melee as much as I could, that's a me problem but still. I also like combos that are very diverse and ledgeguards that actually work, and I don't like being able to just spam smash attacks up to a mid-level with some characters.)
Play Rivals then, is a really good middle point
@@ruznam1252 Sorry but I'm in disagree with you, Rivals is a game that doesn't has two of the main fighting games aspects (the shield and the grabs), Rivals is really focused on offensive strategies and does not reward any kind of defensive play style.
@@pauloreyes6919 The parry system in rivals is a perfect way to make a defensive option more aggressive and honestly feels far more rewarding than holding down a shield button which is stupidly simple to do. Since rivals gets rid of shield for a parry it also doesn't need grabs. Also grabs can be used aggressively or defensively just like dash dancing or even wave dashing, which rivals keeps. Rivals characters themselves also have a lot more depth to them and are very varied when compared to one another. Each character has their own gimmick which functions as a sort of minigame mid match, when you complete the goal minigame/gimmick you get rewarded for it. Also the defensive play style, just like in smash, is rewarded more with certain characters that fit that style of play.
(Parrying despite being more of an aggressive option is still used as a defensive strategy)
I don’t really get the point of melee having a high skill floor though. Not knowing things like L-cancelling doesn’t make the game impossible to just play casually with friends. That’s what the skill floor is for, the moment you get into competitive and start looking into new mechanics and what is possible you start looking at the skill ceiling. I’ve played melee and brawl a lot as a kid without knowing about the competitive sight and both were great games for me. The only reason I played brawl more is because it looked better and was the newer game. Recovering was pretty much just using up-b because casuals don’t edgeguard and you just try to hit the opponent before he hits you so 2 new players can have fun after 10 minutes of learning the buttons in both games.
NO YOU'RE CHEATING
YOU'RE GONNA LEARN KID
God I love justin
Core A-gaming is the best channel of FGC
depends on what you look for in a channel. Core A is the most digestible as far as presentation, Sajam has the most variety and inside information, Hi-Fight has the most information and the best analysis of sets. You can only speak for your own experience
By FAR !
The presentation is great; from purely aesthetic things like the editing/footage to the flow and structure of the video, it makes for very easily watchable videos that make you think. But the analysis itself is often pretty thin, it lacks depth imo. Which is why it's great to have someone like Armada react to it
Core-A-Gaming is my favorite yt channel
Lala Lala It’s interesting that you should say that haha. Maybe for you, but for people like me with only light knowledge of the FGC found it incredibly in depth
Armada and Core-A in one video. This is the good stuff.
Oh since your in this comment section I thought I would ask you about your most recent video. On little Mac you say the problem with Little Mac is his lack of options. Do you think they adding an ex meter would be a better solution as it gives Mac more options while retaining his poor air game
MockRock the G.O.A.T
One thing I wish smash as a franchise got more credit for was being a game for both casual and more competitive players. Despite Nintendo refusing to actually help the competitive scene they've managed to make a franchise that anyone can pick up and have fun with and at the same time it has very specific movement and tech options for players who seek that experience. It's actually really impressive how well they've blended those two formulas
*_Easy to learn, hard to master._*
I'd argue that aside from backdashing and sidestepping, Tekken also fits that mold.
Having the four buttons mapped to each limb is very intuitive and you can have some fun matches with friends using basic attacks and blocking. You don't need long combos or electrics at a beginner level.
BrokenMoonStudios this is the truth
BrokenMoonStudios low skill floor high skill ceiling
“Easy to learn, hard to master”
A very underused term in competitive games like SFV, Smash Ultimate, Smash 4, etc. games like these with this mindset of game design that people who love games like Melee and SF3 don’t understand the value of.
Like boi I promise that the ceiling is mad high, you just like your own personal tastes too much, adapt.
It seems to me that creators of fighting games have mixed up “ease” of controls with “intuition” of controls. Ideally you’d have a game that works well that people can pick up, but has plenty of in-depth mechanics for die hard players.
This. So much.
So true. This is also why I think the Smash franchise has been so successful. The CORE movement of Smash is 2d platforming, which is gameplay that is almost as old as videogames. It's super intuitive.
That's why I love PM, and more recently, P+, even more than ultimate. You are able to execute the same tech and combos like in melee but it feels more comfortable and accessible without dumbing it down, if that makes sense lol
@@Jellyman3 slower jankier melee, and i love everything about it
@@Jellyman3 I feel the same way about Rivals
Note about the Daigo parry: You can't parry the first hit of Chun Li's super on reaction to the super flash. You have to tap forward in anticipation for it and then time the rest of it afterwards. Also if Daigo had tried to block he would just die from chip obviously.
Ya the read itself is what made it even more hype.
welp my head just exploded again years later. that's incredible.
It is a bit of a misconception that you can't parry Chun Li's super after the Super Flash. It is possible but the window is incredibly small (I believe 2 frames).
@@lostinaseaofdreams It's not practically reactable
You can even see daigo start to move forward right before chun hits the super
Honestly, I would watch Armada reacting to ANY Core-A Gaming video because the level of insight and depth Armada brings to the table is unparalleled. (Like when he was casually fact-checking "There Will Never Ever Be Another Melee Player Like Hungrybox").
@elchema yes he missed half the point of his own reaction
@elchema what
@@GetCareless Ya, reaction videos of any sort struggle with the big picture, because your reactions are almost always to the small minute details. By fragmenting the videos like this, it's almost inevitable that the central thesis is missed. Just kind of a grain of salt thing and applies to everyone, Armada included.
@elchema I like the HBox doc a ton but what point did he miss. All he said to the contrary was minor fact checks, and saying that ALL big figures get a lot of hate.
@@CraftyChicken91 He downplayed the hbox hate to a concerning degree "The crowd was cheering against me once. That means hbox didn't have it that bad." It was shit like that that made people realize Armada didn't get the point. It felt like he was more concerned that the video wasn't about him.
Core-A is the "Every Frame a Painting" of fighting game channels. That's a big compliment btw.
RIP that amazing channel :(
@@dandelyon2796 why?
Man, this guy has so much input and thoughts about the matter, he should try some kind of Competitive game, like melee or something.
?????
yeah maybe with fox or peach
He plays both Tekken and street fighter competitively.
@@para7554 nah, he seems more like a puff kinda guy
@@bloxx4866 lmao biggest whoosh
Calling him "Diego" still gets me. 🤣
I’m mostly a Guilty Gear player, but I love your videos. I’m glad your venturing outside of smash for a bit. Awesome video!
Armada + Core-A Gaming is too powerful
Core-[A] Gaming.
BEEEEEEG YOOOOSHIIIII
I'm surprised that Armada doesn't play Tekken considering that the game is nothing but punishes and spacing.
I’ve always wondered if he hasn’t played a lot of traditional fighting games because he liked smash’s movement system too much. That’s probably the biggest aspect of smash that makes it unique compared to other fighting games, aside from it’s roster of characters
Tekken punish is somewhat set in stone tho, there is not as much space for personality as in smash. Also many characters have easy af punish game. Punish game in tekken is actually more a routine thing you have to know, playing neutral and being able to defend are the real stuff that differentiates good tekken player from mediocre ones.
@@michelemichienzi934 I agree with the first part with punishes not having too much variety, although there may be some arguments with that since there are punishes that result in damage vs wallcarry vs oki setups. Playing neutral is very much punishing (whiff punishing) and spacing to get punishes, hence why korean backdash is a widely used technique. Also, having good defense is also a good point but knowing how to punish from a defensive state is just as important.
In regards to Armada's point about a lack of interest with upsets; that's exactly how I felt about most smash 4 tournaments. Hearing that a top 50 player lost in round 1 or 2 pools rarely got me excited as it happened so often. Hearing that a top 20 player lost to rage or lylat never felt statisfying, and more so left me waiting for a tournament where the seeded top 8 made it to top 8. The best tournaments that involved upsets were things like Frostbite w/ Tsu or Evo w/ Kameme, cause they didn't get lucky with one upset. They consistently beat good players, so the upsets felt impactful.
I couldn’t agree more. It’s a video game there’s going to be flukes.
Thank god that’s not the case with ultimate, FB prodigy vs leo and/or light vs toast are examples
Games like Ultimate aren’t considered “hype” because the gameplay is pretty basic. But this makes upsets and things like spikes more interesting.
@@happycamperds9917 what? Its considered hype by a lot of people who follow the scene, theres tons of hype moments, like when Nairo took out light with ganon, or when Leo made the crazy comeback on tweek at evo. You're acting like that's a definitive fact instead of saying you don't feel hyped
Keaton That is what I am saying. You remember those moments better than you do a Samus shine spiking some guy at 15%. There are fewer hype moments but they are more memorable because of this, and therefore more hype.
I played Melee casually during maybe 2 or 3 years and I cared about winning. Even so, I was a super casual player. When Brawl came out I bought it and didn't quite liked it because it felt different but I could never pinpoint why. That's why I agree a ton when people say casuals don't care or notice. Melee is a super high skill ceiling game and I enjoyed the hell out of it without performing a single "advanced" technique.
IMO lowering the skill gap is trying to get people who know about competitive scene enough to care and at the same time they want to compete themselves. I don't think for a second they're more than the casual player base. But game companies are actively trying to cater to them. To me a good and high skill ceiling is best. It creates a rewarding experience for people who put in the work and casuals like I am (or was?) don't care or even notice.
The little experience I had with developping PM has taught me something very important: "A game can be both deep and accessible all at once"
Depth and accessibility are not mutually exclusive. Melee is a very easy game to play at a basic level. If anything, I find it is "easier" to play at a basic level than games like say...Ultimate just because it is more responsive. You fight less with the controls, and the characters does exactly what you want it to do. The skill floor is very low, yet the skill ceiling is very high. As such, there is pretty much a near limitless amounts of depth, and it can be enjoyed at every level. Furthermore, responsiveness directly ties into being able to express yourself in your gameplay.
Melee is by far (After Project M), the most accessible game in the series, simply because it caters to pretty much every skill level.
Some will say "But what about those that don't want to be crushed online?". Matchmaking. What about those that don't want to lose to their friends? Grow up.
People argue fairness when trying to narrow the skill gap, but is it, really? One can argue that it is very unfair for someone to put in effort into mastering a game, only to be defeated by random chance. Isn't it unfair for skilled players to not be rewarded for the effort they put in? It is an agument of equality of outcome VS equality of opportunity. Now, when it comes to games at least, I believe in equality of opportunity. Almsot everyone who tries to get good at Melee can become good. Handicaps can have an impact, unfortunately, but otherwise, it is inherently fair in terms of opportunity. Anyone can try and better themselves. Not everyone will make it to the top, but we can all try. Those hwo argue for equality of opportunity in gaming essentially say "I don't want to put in effort and still want to win". It is essentially robbing people of the rewards for their hard work.
Now, about creator intent: It honestly does not matter. Games are transformative by nature, and are impacted by those who play them. Every single individual has a personal relationsip with the games that they play, and as such, creator intent is completely irrelevant, save perhaps for the initial design philosophy. A good creator adapts to new realities. Just how comboes were not "intended" to exist in Street Fighter, or game designers never intended for there to be a speedrun community, it doesn't matter. In the end, a good designer is not going to get bogged down by a narrow-minded vision. Project M was originally intended to be aimed at competitive players, but we grew more and more aware that more casual players also enjoyed the game. So we added items, cosmetics, and other non-competitive features for those fans. It was us recognizing that the game evolved past our original intentions... and this is fine. People being able to play on their own terms; that is the mark of true accessibility. Accessibility at the top, bottom, and anywhere in between
On upsets: Upsets only mean something to me when I understand te meaning fo the upset. For example, Axe's victory at a major was exciting because he was an underdog that toiled for years to get where he was at. He won with a suboptimal character, and what wa sinspiring was his journey, and the result of it. Zain winning with an online tourney with Roy was exciting because he took the character to a whole new level. These upsets meant something because their victories were against people who showed consistently high levels of skill. Champions don't change all of the time. When someone wins, it's because they climbed a mountain and defeated Goliath. In a game where champions change as often as I change socks, it's not really much of an upset.
I agree with everything bit melee isn't really that eccessible: if you want to be at least decent in competitice melee (because that's what we need to consider for accessibility) you have to know how to L cancel which requires frame perfect timing, then you have to know how to instant short hop aerial in a game where there's no buffer, short hop up air eslecially is really hard because of jump cancel up smash, I don't know if you can't win without wavedashing but I'll assume you need it. Also again there's no buffer so a lot of inputs have to be frame perfect, granted that isn't as much of a big deal because of higher hitstun but still. Everything else you're right tho.
ultimate is easier to play at a casual level tf??? melee doesnt have a buffer and that's HUGE for a casual player. the only reason you think it's more responsive is you've started with melee.
This analysis is very black and white. Rewarding skill is inevitable no matter what game you're playing. Lowering the skill gap doesn't mean you want everyone to win with no effort (why does this exaggeration keep coming up?). And lowering the ENTRY BARRIER doesn't mean destroying the skill gap either.
Beginners don't mind losing a reasonable amount of time (some basic matchmaking) as they progress. They quit because they can't even keep up with why they're losing. Some people will inevitably endure and get better, and some people will quit either way. But you're ignoring a huge middle portion that wants to get into it, only for the game to turn its back on them.
Let's take something as simple as a frame window. There's a middle player who is beginning to understand combos and have a decent skill in neutral. Nothing crazy but getting some stuff. But, no, there's a 2-frame link that they can't do consistently. And not just that. Every failed attempt is a punish. Is that fun? Is that a display of rewarding the most skill? Or is that just frustrating the middle of the pack player for arbitrary reasons? Are you expecting every player to just suck it up and stay dedicated to your game? This is where fighting games can improve a whole lot more. And we'd still be nowhere near giving that player a free win.
@@fernandobanda5734 "Some people will inevitably endure and get better, and some people will quit either way. But you're ignoring a huge middle portion that wants to get into it, only for the game to turn its back on them.
"
I disagree with that point. Everyone is on even footing when it comes to learning and practicing a game, unless of course they have a physical disability that won't allow them to play the game optimally. If they quit because of how they perceive the game's difficulty then the game isn't turning its back on them, they are turning their back on the game.
Also would like to know where the statistics and quantification of this "huge middle portion" comes from
what I want is accessibility to the depth. It's cool and all to be able to play, but what tools does the game give me to understand and learn the underlying tech. The meat and potatoes of advanced play? If someone has to go out of their way to teach the community outside of the game, then in my opinion you've FAILED! If the game can't teach me advanced techniques organically... then fuck it, I'll play something that respects my time and intelligence. I'm not saying tech needs to be easy to pull off, far from it. But I'd like if it taught me what to do, how to do it and provided a challenge to beat that tech into my skull.
@14:20 when Armada is talking about "football" and my USA Mango brain started thinking of American Football
Great band, always thinking of them
The point he was making luckily applies to both games
@From Maui it requires "happy feet"
Core-A’s delivery of his lines is so interesting
14:50 yep, combos were a secret feature that was accidentally made after the Lead producer discovered that the hit stun created by landing a move was enough to chain another move in while he was debugging the car smash bonus stage. He decided to leave it in as a hidden feature because he thought the timing for a “combo” was too complex to be practically utilized in a real match.
Easy to pickup, hard to master is the sweet spot.
I'm fine with pros wrecking me, I just don't want to invest 10+ hours just to do literally anything at all with a character.
I thought Melee WAS the sweet spot tbh.
Being exposed to anyone of even midlevel skill for a new player makes melee seem like an impossible mountain. I think it's just 10% (cough l canceling) too far
I loved that aspect of Melee, my growth and accomplishments seem to be more noticeable and just overall greater just because of how difficult it was. L canceling seemed like BS at first but now it's not something that I even notice myself doing, except when I was losing, then I started noticing it and anticipating it and then messing up even more. It became a way to train and strengthen my mentality overall.
@@rakkatytam it ended up becoming a thing you can do. But... what's the tradeoff? It's hard to believe the work justifies any strategical element to its use
@@freddiesimmons1394 I believe the it conditions the player for more difficult techniques. Now this is entirely projection because I do not have a case study so all I have is my own empirical perspective. L canceling was both hard enough yet simple enough to prepare *me* for more difficult challenges, because it engenders consistency. Like learning how to ledge dash, shield drop, wavedash, combo, etc. I saw it as the a small step towards deciding whether or not the challenge of learning the rest of the game was worth it.
As for the topic of consistency, it does force the player to learn the different timings and be cognizant of when they occur. The player with the better awareness and mentality wins; the better player wins. I see some arguments say: "you learn the timing and then you're done", which is not true. The timing changes and forces awareness of a situation like say:
A bunch of shy guys jumping in your way,
your opponent dashing back and you whiff ,
your opponent light shielding when you thought they were going to shield,
a missile, fire ball, turnip collides with your hitbox
Now this might not seem like a big deal in high level play, but at low level play it becomes the deciding in factor in who is playing better and who will inevitably win. Taking it out of the equation will also make the dominant spacies at the low level overly dominant to the point where low level floaties and semi fast fallers might switch mains or quit. Just my conjecture though.
If I were to design a smash game would I implement it? Probably not. Would I take it out of 64 and Melee? No, I just do not think it is that detrimental.
Sorry for the long post.
Armada you should change your titles from reaction to analysis, what you're doing takes a different skill than just reacting...
100% agree
Reacting is the clickbait, analysis keeps the casual watching
Take notes Adam
Maybe he didnt wanna do Analysis of "Analyiss: Consequences of ...", just sounds silly. but i agree with future videos
*IRAN DID WHAT???*
This guy gives a lot of neat advice for those trying to get into the fgc
I love upsets when they display the exceptional and unexpected growth of a player or team, not when the more skilled contender just got unlucky.
I mostly agree with Armada but tbh the combo skill gap between SFIV and SFV is so different to Melee and Ultimate - the designed difference of tripling the frame link window isn't the same as Melee's combos, which are in many ways based on properties and idiosyncrasies of particular moves (which I would bet a lot of money the devs didn't know about - Falcon's Tipman would not have been a designed property), being different to Ultimate's combos, which are much more designed in the way Street Fighter combos were designed. When Gerald talks about how SFV doesn't let combo masters like Sakunoko and Gamerbee being able to express themselves, the combos these guys were performing in SFIV were made using universal mechanics that Capcom definitely knew were possible. Armada's punish game? I'm certain the designers had no idea that was possible.
Great analysis though.
Imo when people say something is "too" hard in a game that's just an issue with their mentality... In my mind when I'm trying to learn a new difficult skip in a speedrun for example I think it is very hard but not too hard and that just pushes me to try harder to get it. I think a speedrunning kind of mentality is a good way to look at competitive games as well since in speedruns the glitches and skips and their frame data weren't set by the developers and therefore judging wether it is too hard or balanced is pointless since the glitches are what they are. Also, when other people can do it it is possible and thus not too hard, one is just not skilled enough. I also think it's a very positive trait of a competitive game to have a high skill ceiling so the players that are better also get rewarded more. Where's the fun in a game where everyone can win regardless of who played better? A game of this kind would have no incentive to actually play it and gain skill and experience in it.
I will say I typically shy away from Melee due to it being hard in weird places. I play Rivals which has easier wavedashes, no L cancelling, and allows you to set tilt stick and turn off tap jump. These are things I could get used to in Melee sure, but I'd rather just jump into Rivals. Granted I'll appreciate both games for their depth and difficulty in areas that actually matter.
I agree. I like Melee a lot and appreciate that it's hard but in my opinion (Melee players are totally free to disagree), there are some parts that just don't feel very good.
Nice video Adam. I think acceptable ways to lower the skill gap are: there is no good reason for a technique to be so hard, the technique is bad for your hands (not allowing ergonomic button remapping, claw is notoriously bad for hands), there is no fun bridge to competitive play (a game like melee can be picked up off the shelf and enjoyed, but conceivably, a game could be unplayable until a lot of skill was obtained)
Reason street fighter parrys are harder is you are leaving back and hitting forward, so if you mistime it early or the opponent delays their hit a slight bit, you are now eating the combo instead of shielding like in Smash. Smash parry is actually more akin to Just Defend from SNK fighters, where the window is shorter but the consequence is a regular block.
36:15 you should enter Project + tournaments if you feel you can't take ultimate seriously. We'd love to see the Swedish Sniper dominate again
Dark Souls games (especially the 1st) proved that a huge portion of gamers want high challenge and want to learn about the game without being hand held, since the game doesnt explain a majority of the game it let's you explore
>dark souls (especially the 1st)
So you mean Demon Souls?
Dark Souls isn't the best example because at it's not really multiplayer or competitive.
@@zacclark5945 some will say pvp has fighting game elements in how you approach, bait and punish (it's not a good comparison, coming from someone who has done a fair amount of invasions and pvp) but it regardless it did influence a whole "souls like" genre. Souls games by design are basically a series of skill checks, risk/reward assessment and understanding what the game will allow you to do and when.
@@zacclark5945 It was absolutely multiplayer, that was and is a huge part of the way the game is built... but i'm not arguing from a competitive standpoint, i'm stating that from a psychological standpoint people have proven by the success of the souls series that they want to be challenged, in an era post 2000's where companies kept watering down their games and removing barriers of entry. Fighting games do this naturally, but Souls games do this in their own way.
The lack of expressivity in ultimate kills me whenever wolf gets a grab
Some characters can be expressive.
For example, Shiek and Fox.
BrokenMoonStudios young link, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Falco, sheik, Daisy, peach, pika, Pichu, and more all have very long drawn out expressive combo trees with many different effective branches. And that’s not even accounting for expressive zoners like link, snake, duck hunt, and Pac-Man. There’s so much room for customization in ult with most characters
Well, zackray will rather go for a dash attack whereas oryon often go for shine combos.
With wario, when the opponent is offstage, gluto often goes for a dair edgeguard whereas tweek goes for a dtilt 2 frame.
With falcon, after a dthrow, ogey goes for a high rewarding knee whereas fatality goes for a more consistent nair.
I could give a ton of concrete examples like this just to tell you that there is a lot of expressivity in ultimate (except with palutena).
Ult has some expression through it's gameplay. True combos aren't that expressive usually but strings are.
13:57 What Armada is referring to here is basically death of the author in writing. Which is that the intended goals of the writing don't matter as the viewer's interpretation of a piece of writing will always matter more to them than the author's intent.
I believe there is no concept more important to any form of art than Death of the Author
Personally, I feel like developers should try to reach a middle ground when it comes to execution. I don't think that a game that directly deteriorates hand health such as melee can be justified by it's depth, but I also don't think a game like ultimate which is mechanically very simple is a good idea either, since this greatly reduces depth. I think a good example of a middle ground is rivals of aether, the game simplifies various mechanics such as wavedashing, while not sacrificing the depth of the game. Things such as parrying should always be difficult, but basic mechanics of a game, such as the input commands in a fighting game should be easy. A player will never be able to string together the basic tools of the game into solid movement and combos without practice, if a game has sufficient depth, artificial difficulty becomes unnecessary. As for input delay, it's always a bad idea to increase it as it takes away a player's control of their character.
Yes but those hand breaking options should still exist. A Street Fighter competitor should have the option to go for that one-frame link to squeeze out that extra damage, and have 3 other one-frame links to have style-defining combos. The bread and butter combos still exist for people who focus more on neutral or reads or for weaker players that don’t want that extra bit of damage. The skill ceiling of combos shouldn’t drop tho
Melee destroying hands is such a myth. A lot of people have gotten hand problems playing melee- just like a lot of people have gotten hand problems playing the piano, typing, etc. If you don't take care of your hands doing something intensive with them, you'll get hand problems. Should the piano have less depth because people have hurt their hands playing it? No. It's not the piano's fault. It's the same thing with melee. If you take care of yourself, you can be fine. The vast majority of melee players don't get long term hand problems. This idea that it's inevitable getting hand problems playing melee is just wrong.
Core A Gaming is amazing! I was already into Smash Bro’s but it helped me get into Tekken and Street Fighter.
Tbh this video with Armada's commentary has made me understand more about the Melee player mindset than any argument I've heard since forever.
I can honestly say now after years of not really understanding why Melee players dog so hard on the newer Smash games, that I can really grasp those takes.
Don't agree with em any more than I did before, but it definitely comes off in a different light now.
Can confirm as a melee enjoyer I didn't even know there was a high skill ceiling until years later when someone made a youtube documentary on it.
It just felt fun, and brawl didn't.
When Armada was saying Sakurai I kept thinking he was saying Zackray
Wow thank you for pointing this out, I was confused lmao
Yeah I checked, in street fighter 2, the combos weren't intentional but they knew about it and they choose to keep it (exactly like wavedash in melee)
35:30 I think I can provide you with a reasonable argument as to why you ~6 frames of input delay might be a good idea.
The more input delay you have, the more player lag you can "hide" in the netcode.
(if the input is 5 frames late due to lag, you can wait 1 more frame before you simulate the input in game, hiding the lag completely).
This means you get a buffer of 6*16ms = 96ms (which should be enough for most peoples lag).
This way netplay will more closely resemble offline play. It makes sense to try keep the game consistent between the two modes so that you are actually "playing for real" when you're in netplay.
This consistency has the additional benefit that everything that is reactable in training mode / locally is also reactable online.
So you are trading responsiveness for game consistency.
Not that I disagree with the conclusion that it's a bad idea. Something like GGPO seems to work better in practice (although it isn't perfect, can create some strange artifacts and might trip you up if you are trying to react, because a move might turn into a different move mid-animation)
cheers :)
With regards to parrying Chun’s super in SFV: obviously it’s a lot easier, and it should probably be harder than it is. However, the risk associated with parrying in SFV as opposed to 3s is completely different (not with regards to moment 37 just generally). Parrying in 3s is an instant action. Ryu’s VS1 isn’t active until frame 3. Also, and most importantly, parries in 3s have no whiff animation. If you guess parry and the opponent doesn’t press a button, you simply walk forward. If Ryu guess parries in SFV and the opponent doesn’t push a button, Ryu has 32 frames of recovery in which he is in a counter hit state. They made parrying easier because they made it riskier. Having it be both difficult and extremely punishable wouldn’t make much sense from a balance perspective.
Every game I love in any format follows the "easy to learn, hard to master" approach. Chess, Melee, Poker, Street fighter, Mordhau, dark souls etc. Games that don't force fun on you but give you all the tools and resources to have fun your own way are always the best games and the ones that stay alive and breathing years after release. Definitely possible to appeal to everyone with this in mind.
Thank you for this video Armada! I appreciate you!
So imagined Melee reducing the skill gap :
- Automatic L-Cancel
- Performing wavedash is just a spam of directional airdodge without been precise
- Everyone now can do the amazing combos we see from Mang0 , Armada , etc.
- People now can do out of shield options so easily.
- There is now two jump buttons, for full hop and other for a short-hop, no need to be precise for a short hop
- Parrys and power shields are insane easily by just pressing shield
- The Amsa tech get so easy that no need to be precise, just spam.
- DI is just mashing random buttons and not of a precise angle.
- Everyone can now just moon-walk with no effort, making it not so sick :(
L cancel is bad mechanic imo its pointless there is no reason to not do it so a lower overall landing lag or all moves can be auto cancelled will be better
@@legendredux1291 64 and melee players have been pressing sheild to land for 2 decades
@@legendredux1291 L-cancel is fine. I personally feel one of the main things that needed adjusting was shield dropping.
@@legendredux1291 Did you watch the video? You've failed to grasp one of its main points.
i mean it would be cool as a mod only for fun idk
Ive loved core a gaming for years and it's awesome to see how other smashers think of his content
8:40 I’m inclined to disagree with this point when melee came out there was no online scene for these types of games so casuals couldn’t even interact with good players but now that games are more online than local it’s very easy for a casual to go online, get bodied then call the game too hard and quit. In the past accessibility was less important because games were more closed off but now that you can play with anyone around the world companies have more incentive to reduce the skill gap to make casuals feel better about themselves online.
I don't think the skill gap should be reduced EVEN if online exists. Maybe a better matching sistem is important.
This kinf of game should have a "simple mode" and a "pro mode" that would be the solution .... For ultimate, making a cut of input lag by half in a "special mode" would do the work , and everybody happy
Reducing input lag wouldnt change combos, punish game or edgegaurding in any way for example
Like marvel vs Capcom
Blazblue lol
As someone who plays Ultimate, when The video got to the topic of taking away defensive options I felt that man. I felt that.
Another video by Core A-Gaming that you would probably enjoy is "Analysis: Why fighting gaming is better than fighting sports" In my opinion it's anamazing video as well just as all the other ones on Core A-Gaming
The only kind of upsets I wanna see, are like Wizzy eliminating Hbox at GOML19. Watching a player come so close so many times, and finally accomplishing a feat is the only type of upset anybody should be hyped about. Plup winning a major, M2K winning a summit. If the upset doesn't have a story that accompanies it, a history of climbing that mountain... what even makes it hype?
Love how Armada essentially predicted core-a talking about extra frame lag leading to reliance on predicting rather than reaction, in turn making more uncertainty in outcome.
This is why I love games that are "easy to play, hard to master" . It has the best of both worlds, the game is fun and easy for casuals to play but at the same the same time, there's a lot of depth to the game's mechanics that competitive players can have fun learning.
Love these react videos and critiques from Armada. By a large margin he is the best top player at succinctly analyzing and logically explaining concepts behind fighting games.
It's only too bad he doesn't have the tone of voice, online charisma, and X-factor needed to appeal to younger audiences to be a massive RUclips star.
He doesn't need to be. I honestly somewhat segmented form of the FGC is a strength, and Armada is more of a 'mid-high' level of entry type of guy.
Maximilian, Core-A, those kind of guys are better presenters and knowledgeable, but not as in depth as Armada.
His fanbase is well earned, and he has his place for his community, but by his very nature, he can't be like those guys. Because he's not them.
Armada doing Core-A-Gaming?? DO MORE I NEED IT!!!
Don't wish it was easier wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenge wish for more wisdom.
- Jim Rohn
I want to have a high skill game that focuses on teaching new players, like fun game modes that helps you practice the fundamentals or whatever. Something like that.
Thems Fighting Heards is probably what you're looking for then. If you can get over the ponies, you'll actually pick up useful FGC related information while going through the single player.
I think Ultimate makes a LITTLE too easy for some things and the hold buffer is def too lenient but it's nowhere near as bad as SFV. I had no idea what SFV was like, wow!
One of the reasons I main Yoshi in Ultimate is he actually has pretty good combo variety and a lot of almost-true strings. Not Melee level of course, but he has some cool stuff.
14:00 Combos back in Street Fighter 2 were a glitch found by the developers which they decided to leave in. You can see how this greatly influenced fighting games.
Ice Climbers feel like the only characters in Ultimate that allow you to have freedom with your combo structure. Great for Icies, not so great for nair train Palu or down throw dash attack Wolf.
Core A Gaming is one of my favorite RUclips channels. Hopefully you'll take a look at more of their videos!
I do have to say that normal punishes are easier in ultimate, but there is still creativity and expression. The problem is that it's not worth it to learn setups to punish escape options and get extensions to make great punishes, but since there are sooooo many different characters that it is much more optimal to just practice neutral and corner/ledge traps cuz that works on everyone instead of just specific characters.
.... So, is it just me, or is a "FGC personality talks about a Core-A video" video the most fascinating thing?
It's laughable when Ultimate introduced Parry Shielding 'cause people thought they were gonna be doin' a Smash Bros. equivalent of Moment 37.
Armada’s gonna eventually react to everything Smash or fighting game related
Video?
Counterpoint: if you took chess and added a difficult dancing skillcheck that one would need to pass in order not to pass their turn, professional dancers would outperform Magnus Carlsen.
In the end, the kind and difficulty of skillchecks that make it into any given game determine what the game is really about.
When a game (that has many players with an incentive to play to win) has certain players that consistently make it to the top, it's sufficient evidence for the game being competitive and skill-based. The game could still not be fun or the skills checked might be uninteresting, but that has a degree of subjectivity.
I mean, that chess variant could still be interesting, depending on what a "dancing skillcheck" would look like, just different. Chess is a pure strategy game at its core, the skills being tested are entirely mental, and the game could technically be played without the board. Any game where reaction times are being tested immediately invites physical skill measurements.
I like smash because it's easy to learn, hard to master.
Ultimate I will admit has it's issues with many people, but the only one I have is the Imput Lag and the Buffer.
I hate lowering the skill ceiling you should be rewarded for your dedication to the game
What I like about smash is it’s one of the easiest fighting games out there but still has tech and gameplay that allows for a very high skill ceiling as well.
You should have more content from Gerald's channel. Not a jab at smash players, but most of the smash audience has no competitive experience in any fighting games outside of smash. Giving smash players a broader view of the FGC needs to be more of a trend
14:11
A better example imo is Basketball, which initially was made as a general warm up game. Spalding (however you spell that) made the first basketball for a coach who wanted balls with certain specifications to use in a training game meant to exercise the entire body and practice precision. It just happened to be a competitive sport in it's own right.
"Nobody thought Melee was hard to pick up" Imagine if it had had online. You would have gotten destroyed not just by mere skill, but by players doing basic competitive that weren't explained anywhere else or intuitive at all.
If you could somehow "turn off" edge hogging, L-canceling, jump-canceling Fox's Reflector, etc. for casual play, sure. That is pretty much what happens when you're just playing against Adventure Mode CPUs or friends who don't know better. But as it is, part of the entry barrier is all the hidden stuff that's essential to playing well.
Honestly, I don't really care who is better or who wins. What I care about is that the match shows an interesting dynamic between two people who're trying to win. It's not about the upsets for me or about rooting for a particular player. I watch for the hype moments and players who manage to surprise their opponents and the audience through ingenious plays.
When games try to reduce the skillgap, all they are doing is reducing the tech skill required in exchange for reaction skill and other skills that are far less apparent but just as real. Its just that tech skill is the thing that looks cool (and retires melee players due to arthritis)
I think a decent amount of difference in opinion here can come down to what specifically a player finds value in when it comes to fighting games (or game design in general). For instance you value having a nuanced punish game and the ability to self express through unique gameplay decisions as well as having higher execution demands making things feel more rewarding and more impressive when they are pulled off. Personally I love having a lot of interesting options for self expression above most other things here and I don't particular care for execution barriers being higher so I'm going to value design choices differently. Having a lot of options is naturally going to make the game harder both in terms of execution as well how much any player needs to learn. I also like faster paced games (as I'm sure you do as well) which also ends up making games more difficult and widens the skill gap but I personally see making things more difficult to execute as downsides that are simply worth doing for the sake of very good up sides that come along with other design goals (making the game faster and increasing options).
For example I personally don't find most of the Daigo clip especially impressive in a vacuum as simple execution performance doesn't impress me all that much and I don't value it especially highly. I DO find the initial parry impressive because it required knowing the opponent was going for that option in order to pull off but everything after that not so much (and let's be honest a 10F window is pretty generous). There's also the bit about it being game 5 of grand finals and it was literally do or die that makes it quite impressive. But really when you boil it down it was one important decision followed by a bunch of execution checks. Any failure on this execution check would then devalue the excellent decision making that preceded it. Best not fail what I see as a glorified quick time event.
Now granted for full disclosure I DO have a bias here as my hands don't work as well as they used to and had to quit some games due to hand pain but I did still have most of this same opinion before that came to be the case.
For Smash Ultimate in particular I'd like to see an expansion of follow up options from slightly added hitstun and probably slightly better mobility for some characters which would end up making the game more difficult and increasing the skill gap but do so for reasons that I find valuable. On the flip side I was very disappointed with how one of the updates was handled with jumping (where they added the ability to press two buttons at the same time to short hop). I would MUCH rather see the ability to map individual buttons to short hop as well as full hop. This would also address an issue a lot of players have with how the short hop aerial buffer functions. I personally do not value arbitrary execution checks like being able to short hop properly. We can talk about how impressive the Daigo clip was and sure, but the flip side to execution checks like this are things like failing a ledge dash in Melee and losing a game due to the SD which is the polar opposite of impressive or satisfying - that's something that also can come with this sort of execution minded design too.
I guess that's a lot of words to say "I don't value execution for execution's sake" but that's where I come at this from. Either way I do like the video and enjoy the chance to talk game design. I value your opinion more than most on game design subjects even if I disagree with you from time to time. Dunno if you'll read this or whatever but if you like player expression a lot then I do genuinely think you'd enjoy Guilty Gear (especially XX, not as much XRD).
Yo, everyone else has said how I feel about CoreA's original video and Armada's analysis/input on it, but I just want to appreciate how Armada immediately rejected the use of "retarded" as a pejorative - good shit to community leaders for consistently pushing for more empathetic/inclusive language.
The sad part about Ultimate’s high input delay is they might have increased it artificially just to put all the supported controllers at an equal level.
Bit late here but afaik its a 1f or 2f window against chun after the first parry. And it depends on how you parry the first hit of chun super
Regarding your football (soccer) analogy, it started in medieval times to my knowledge. It was a game for young boys using a pig’s stomach as a ball.
Core-A-Gaming is suuuch a good channel !
they don't need to shorten the skill gap, they need to lower the skill floor
43:10 this hits very differently after recent events
Regarding high input delay at around the 35:30 mark: It is a necessity for fighting games without rollback netcode.
This video was amazing. I have same criticisms of ultimate with the input lag that you cant effectively punish your opponents bad/missed moves.
People don't play games to admire or show off how good someone's fingers are at performing stupidly precise inputs on a controller, people play games for the GAME. That is the actual interaction going on INSIDE the game. Anything that makes execution of ANY action in the game a player wants to do easier is a good thing. That is the whole point of "CONTROLS" in a game, that you actually can CONTROL it. If you are struggling to CONTROL your character because of how hard the "CONTROLS" are then they are BAD controls. The most ideal set of controls possible would be total telepathic control, that is instantaneous input from your brain's thoughts to the input of your character in game. Anything a player wants to do but can't because they are unable to perform the controller inputs needed is just indicative of bad controls
33:15 at one point, ultimate had an average of 12 frames of input lag online
This is why i like traditional sports a lot, all skill basically no luck in something like distance running
Yup, the second you allow for individual differences (i.e. not 100% random) there will be inequality, which with time will lead to a dominance hierarchy of skill.
one thing to note is that there's a difference between mechanical skill and strategic skill. I think that there is value to mechanical skill in a game, but obviously if you take it to its limit, every single move requiring 1 frame accuracy is dumb. i think there's a balance that needs to be made, games should be easy to pick up but hard to master. that balance is hard to find.
I think games can often suffer strategically when they are mechanically too simple.
@@calumfoster-bayliss7122 like chess? Go? Reversi? Backgammon?
@@yonatanbeer3475 like backgammon. Chess is not mechanically simple. There are exceptions to every rule, like Go. But yeah, Chess is NOT mechanically simple, not for an ancient game like that.
@@yonatanbeer3475 for instance, Mr.Beer, mancala, checkers, othello, and tic-tac-to are all strategically AND mechanically simpler than Chess. I think when it comes to those games that they are strategically simpler in part because they are mechanically simpler. It is of course possible to create a mechanically dense game that is actually super simple strategically.
I actually feel that intentionally easier game design ruins the experience for a lot of newer competitively minded players. If you make it seem like everyone can be a pro, but are unable to 100% remove all elements of skill (essentially just not making the game a roll of dice only), you actually dishearten newer players from becoming more competitive. You may feel like you can be amazing because that's the message the game sends you, but even after practicing for a bit, you get destroyed by a pro, it makes you feel like something is wrong with you, because according to the game anybody and everybody should be able to achieve the best. If you can't achieve the best in a game like this, then something must be wrong with you. I feel this way in ultimate since, despite well over 1,000 hours of pure practice, I can't keep up with better players, no matter how much the game tries to hold my hand and tell me I can do anything. It disheartened me to the point that I've mostly given up ultimate in favour of P+, where I can feel like I'm earning progress, and not like I'm being handed enough to make me confident in ability I don't actually have/haven't achieved.
Going against a pro will give you that same experience no matter what the game tells you about your skill. What will help you a lot is to focus on the improvement of execution instead of results. That will come eventually.
@@thegreattsbob But when you go against a pro in a game with a wider set of skills, you can visibly see where you fall short a lot more.
Where as incredibly niche situations like neutral is a lot harder to perceive, especially when the game shifts more things to guessing so it's hard to pinpoint what you are actually doing wrong besides making bad guesses.
In Melee you can look at your Fox compared to Leffen and say "You should have done this here, you messed up here, etc"
In Ult when you're looking at a match it takes a lot more knowledge to point out where you went wrong and could have done better.
As a high level player in multiple games, coaching someone in a game like Ult is actually a lot harder than in something like Melee.
You have so many less things you can work on at a macro-level. It's more so even the mid-high level players are already arriving at the point where micro-improvements is all they can really do.
Where as in Melee even pro players have macro things they could still work in some matchups, as well as the micro changes.
@@Saskaruto16 this sounds like the differences in gameplay between sc:bw and sc2, there is an interesting video from brownbear where he examines where sc2 went wrong and postulates that higher mechanical depth doesnt just not detract from the new player experience but actually enhances it, and it also enhances strategy and player identity, but only if properly implemented.
i cant find any exact video but this article by the same person is still timeless and a very interesting piece that translates to fighting games as well to some degree, and i recommend reading it wholeheartedly.
just felt like talking about something i dont know why
Take a shot every time he says “like”
I've always enjoyed games with either a high requirement of knowledge or technical skill. Which is why i like competitive pokemon and competitve smash for those 2 reasons. In melee even with my friends who can shffl and dash dance somewhat comfortably, the hours i put in practcing the technical skills was as much fun for me as using it naturally in a match, and even if they outread me, i can out-tech them. Pokemon lacks the technical skills, but knowledge of the meta and how to make a competitive team is super important and you need to study it, much like tech skill in melee. It also allows you a lot of room to be creative. As new games now a days slowly slip into simple rock-paper-scizors i find myself liking them less and less.
What Pokemon gen made it more rock paper scissors for you
Little added note to SFV's balancing. thankfully at this point they have removed all the gross input delay. I think it was removed around the end of S3?
the reason why i like Melty is that the last arc requires an ex shield during blood heat, which is a 3f window +1 late frame,. doing a full parry in that game is tough, but you get a lot of damage or an unblockable, untechable, insta kill from the damage.
Melee has a very high skill gap, is very difficult to play optimally, and is very expressive. As a result, I think melee players tend to defend things like it's difficulty because they aren't exactly sure which legs of melee they could remove and still have the game they love function. I think the idea that a higher skill gap and expression are always positively correlated is flawed. Imagine melee but where every advanced technique has a one or two frame window (l canceling, wavesdashing, etc.) and only the best players could perform these techniques consistently. This OVERLY rewards people with a talent (or penchant) for hard tech, and should serve as a foil to how gutting difficult inputs made SFV a worse game. You would not say there is more expression in "harder melee". Rather there would be less expression of skills we prize in melee (not just movement but how it is used, etc).
I think that melee is expressive primarily because of the freedom it gives players more so than its specific placement on the skill gap spectrum. Personally, I think melee's difficulty tends to be too hard and to hinder skill expression. However, I think it is closer to the perfect balance than other games in the franchise. This is in part because of poor choices by developers in lowering the skill gap. Tripping is an example of the worst way to lower skill gap, however, I think some techniques in melee could be made easier to (hypothetically) make melee a better game. Making some high difficulty tech easier would improve the game (hypothically) where it doesn't have an adverse effect (making ledgedashing too easy makes the ledge over powered and skews the game toward defense). Trying to close the execution gap between casuals and experts is going too far, but in general I think the difference between good players and great players should be primarily in decision making and not in difficult execution. If I had Armada's techskill tomorrow I would not have his punish game. The most important part of his punish game is in his head, not his hands.
Yeah melee seems really fun and I appreciate the skill it takes, but sometimes the amount of precision required to do simple things seems kinda stupid, from an admittedly pretty outside position. Like dashback in vanilla melee
you are LIKE a machine gun saying LIKE ✔️
The most impressive parts of the Daigo parry are more impressive than a cursory glance shows. 10 frame window or not, actually parrying Chun's super 2 requires you to input parry BEFORE super-flash, so there has to be some kind of indication or hard read for you to parry it successfully. Here's where the first problem comes in, you can stop people from seeing you do the motion before the super comes out by doing another quick move that whiffs/hits, and buffering the super during the animation, activating it when the move ends. Another way of noticing they're about to super, listen for the distinct double fireball sound from the opponent's stick... But for Daigo, this was not an option. Justin Wong was intentionally spinning his stick and mashing buttons that don't do anything in order to throw Daigo off... Worst of all, that Chun Super? It starts in 1 frame, if Daigo did ANYTHING wrong and that super came out, he is dead. In comparison, Street Fighter 5 has none of these aspects to consider, since, well... Ryu's Parry kinda sucks anyway, and he's the only one that can use it... lol...
i love how armada made a 14 minute video into a 49 minute video
The 7 frames of input delay in ultimate are not there to be more friendly to newer player, it's a restriction of the engine. They need to process graphics and stuff and there's a balance between having nice looking games and having low input lag.
Competitive players don't care about good graphics and would probably rather play without visual effects so that only hitboxes are visible, so of course they'll be against adding input lag (bad) for increasing visual effects (also bad), but casuals won't notice input lag (up to something like 7 frames) and like visual effects.
I've tried playing PM with hit boxes on. People hate that shit lol.
I just dont understand how we ever sacrificed function for looks. Ever
I want to see a reaction video to this Core-A video from a pro in Smash Ultimate to see what their thoughts are on this. Although I do agree with the video, it comes off as shitting on Ultimate, and I wanna see another perspective.
A lot of Ult players also have some of these opinions even if they don’t wanna completely admit it. We saw ZeRo and Tweek criticize Ult early on, and ended up walking some of it back because the Smash mob doesn’t like it when their precious game is criticized, even by people who play it for a fucking living. If certain Ult pros were able to say what they wanted about the game without the mob shitting on them, it would probably go a lot like this video just because Ult has an even lower skill ceiling than Smash 4.
The halo franchise now faces a similar crisis. Halo 5 added a bunch of extra mechanics to the meta and really increased the skill gap to a ludicrous degree Adding a tone of player expression through gameplay. However the part of the community that’s non competitive doesn’t like that the game ceiling is now so high and want to regress almost all of the added meta to make the individual skill ceiling lower so it’s more like “classic halo“