Iam a Dutchmen. Isn't it so that napoleon renamed them because they are original the Dutch marine Corps. These elite troops were integrated into the guard like napoleon did with others
The Dutch and practically all of Victor’s foreign corps were known for their defense at the Beresina, since France annexed the Netherlands, the Dutch army was merged into the Great Army (example: 2-3 Dutch régiments would be merged into a single « French » regiment) They were the 123rd-126th? Regiments that were also Dutchmen, correct me if I’m wrong
Like your vids very much. I just have to pick up on a few points you made about the Middle Guard. It was the 2nd Grenadiers and Chasseurs who disappeared when they were amalgamated with the 1st regiments in 1809. The Middle Guard didn't disappear as the term was not used until 1811. The Fusilier regiments which were formed in 1806 remained in service throughout until 1814. The term Young Guard came into use in 1809, so between 1809-11, the Fusiliers were known as the old men of the Young Guard. The Fusiliers were originally formed from the Velites of the Old Guard units and from the best conscripts from the existing reserves. Because of the 6 year service requirement for recruits, their age tended to be 25-30, experienced men in the prime of their life with experienced Guard officers. At the start of the Russian campaign, the 2nd Guard Division under Roguert were considered to be the best infantry soldiers in the army (even better than the old guard, a quote I cannot place, but remember!). No doubt it was their fitness which helped them suffer comparatively less casualties during the retreat than the other Guard units. This division were the two fusilier regiments, the 1st Tiralliers and 1st Voltigeurs. These regiments had experience from Spain too which the other Young Guard units did not. For the table, I would give them a fighting quality on par with the Old Guard grenadiers and chasseurs certainly, who lets face it were carrying many older men by the end of the Napoleonic wars. The 3rd Dutch Grenadiers perhaps not, while in the 1815 campaign the units termed 3rd and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs I agree performed well and deserve a high rating too. cheers..
I think that Napoleon, instead of pulling experienced soldiers from line regiments to form the middle guard, he should use top raw recruits as privates, experienced corporals from line regiments as corporals, and corporals and sergeants from the old guard as sergeants & officers to form the middle guard. And the privates and corporals in the middle guard can become corporals and sergeants in the line regiments. This way can avoid the manpower drain of experienced NCOs the line regiment you mentioned. Or did Napoleon tried to do that in the young guard??
Good Day Sir. I’m sorry but I can’t tell if you’re joking or serious. If I honestly crossed a social convention, I do apologize. If you’re joking, well, you got me! Either way, I wish you a wonderful day. Cheers
Fascinating! I had only heard of the Middle Guard before watching this video, and found it to be very helpful. I’m trying to make sense of the uniforms. E.g. at 28:39 the flankers wear great coats, cloth covered shakos, and blue trousers, which elsewhere is labeled campaign dress. Is this winter only or year round? The inside right and left wear white faced coats, uncovered shakos with pompoms, and white trousers. Is this summer campaign dress? The middle figures wear white faced coats, shakos with tall plumes, and white breeches with black over the knee gaiters. Is this parade dress that was not used in battle/on campaign? Finally, were the same shakos used for campaign dress and parade ground, with the cording and plumes added when marching on parade, or did the soldiers receive two shakos, one for parade and one for campaign?
Hi mate, Big fan of your channel, helps me put my French napoleonic army together, we dives into it with my group and I have to admit I barely know anything about army organizations. I have a quick question for you: do you know where I can find the rules for Black Powder for the French, Prussia, Russian and Austrian armies for the period of 1805-1812? Thanks in advance.
The young guard werent a thing until 1809, so the were sepatate at least until then. Its bery confusing and doesnt really impact on the tabletop, which is the focus of the channel. For this series I thought it best to separate the guard by unit, but all that said, interesting point!
The perpetual downside of "Elite" Units. You take the best and put them in special units, thereby depriving the regular units of guys who would have made excellent NCO's and officers...then you put the "elite" units into absolutely dreadful situations where they get massacred. Then you proclaim the elite units were so much better than the line units...partially because you gutted the line units of competent soldiers. (and historically, some "elite units" were formed for specific missions, especially in WWII and by the time they were trained, the specific mission had been cancelled. Thinking of 1st Special Service Force that was supposed to join the Brits in Norway and ended up as reinforcements in Italy after the Norway idea flamed out.) And tho the Elite Units might have played well in the press and propaganda, their existence usually ticked off your regular units morale because they saw the Elites getting better gear and first dibs on supplies.
I don't think that was ever an issue. You see strong and highly capable personnel in every facet of military life, not just special operations forces. SOF are also not uniform in their capabilities. You will observe many people who excell in the military and do not join such prestigious units, simply because it is not in their interest, or there don't happen to be slots. So what you say, is actualy not lacking, but a *thing* in modern day militaries. You will find "overqualified" and super intelligent people all over the place, not just in specific branches or units.
@@lkvideos7181 Another thing is that with Napoleon's Guard the men accepted into the guard were usually of well above average height. This means that the excellent soldiers who would otherwise have joined the guard (discipline record, citation for bravery, skills, experience) had to remain in the line due to not meeting height requirements (unless you received legion of Honour). Now...you had to be 173cm tall to join the chasseurs of the guard. This is approx 1 standard deviation above average height meaning that at the very most only 20% of your veterans would be able to join. For the grenadiers at 178cm we are down to maybe 5% of veterans if not less.
A French battalion on campaign had 500-600 men, perhaps closer to full complement just at leaving the barracks for the campaign. Will taking say 2 'best' men from that unit make it noticeably worse? If 200 or so fresh conscripts from that unit begin taking step backs or running away what are the few experienced soldiers supposed to do? They will have to follow them.... the fact that these 2 men can shoot 4 rounds a minute wont change the firepower of the battalion since recruits can manage say 2.5 shot per minute, 2 men wont be able to order the men after the lines had been shattered by cannon fire and so on... Of course this is all within reason, taking few men from a battalion wont change it drastically, but taking 50 may very well make it far less organised in the heat of battle and indeed you could make a point that prior to the invasion of Russia, at its greatest extent the imperial guard was simply too big at some 21 regiments containing best veterans and cream of the conscripts but this is a material for a big study, not a paragraph in yt comment section.
Sorry but I strongly disagree. I'd pick a toughened 30-40y ( most Old Guard were actualy barely older than 30-35 ) old professional in a profession where men die young, with tons of exp on his back, over 18-25y olds, any day of the week.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
no idea what black powder is but love the history, photos and minatures
The Dutch Grenadiers had been renumbered The 3rd Grenadiers of the Guard by 1812 and were wiped out covering the retreat of the Grand Armee
Amazingly welll timed! Check out this evening's video for the story of the destruction of the Dutch Grenadiers ;)
Iam a Dutchmen. Isn't it so that napoleon renamed them because they are original the Dutch marine Corps.
These elite troops were integrated into the guard like napoleon did with others
@@thekameleon9785 didn’t Napoleon give them OG status after?
The Dutch and practically all of Victor’s foreign corps were known for their defense at the Beresina, since France annexed the Netherlands, the Dutch army was merged into the Great Army (example: 2-3 Dutch régiments would be merged into a single « French » regiment) They were the 123rd-126th? Regiments that were also Dutchmen, correct me if I’m wrong
Like your vids very much. I just have to pick up on a few points you made about the Middle Guard. It was the 2nd Grenadiers and Chasseurs who disappeared when they were amalgamated with the 1st regiments in 1809. The Middle Guard didn't disappear as the term was not used until 1811. The Fusilier regiments which were formed in 1806 remained in service throughout until 1814. The term Young Guard came into use in 1809, so between 1809-11, the Fusiliers were known as the old men of the Young Guard. The Fusiliers were originally formed from the Velites of the Old Guard units and from the best conscripts from the existing reserves. Because of the 6 year service requirement for recruits, their age tended to be 25-30, experienced men in the prime of their life with experienced Guard officers. At the start of the Russian campaign, the 2nd Guard Division under Roguert were considered to be the best infantry soldiers in the army (even better than the old guard, a quote I cannot place, but remember!). No doubt it was their fitness which helped them suffer comparatively less casualties during the retreat than the other Guard units. This division were the two fusilier regiments, the 1st Tiralliers and 1st Voltigeurs. These regiments had experience from Spain too which the other Young Guard units did not. For the table, I would give them a fighting quality on par with the Old Guard grenadiers and chasseurs certainly, who lets face it were carrying many older men by the end of the Napoleonic wars. The 3rd Dutch Grenadiers perhaps not, while in the 1815 campaign the units termed 3rd and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs I agree performed well and deserve a high rating too. cheers..
I would certainly enjoy some rule where a battalion has “Middle Guard NCOs”, some small boost but maybe nothing awesome, more for the flavour of it.
Yeah that would be co! Maybe more a skirmish level rule?
I think that Napoleon, instead of pulling experienced soldiers from line regiments to form the middle guard, he should use top raw recruits as privates, experienced corporals from line regiments as corporals, and corporals and sergeants from the old guard as sergeants & officers to form the middle guard. And the privates and corporals in the middle guard can become corporals and sergeants in the line regiments. This way can avoid the manpower drain of experienced NCOs the line regiment you mentioned. Or did Napoleon tried to do that in the young guard??
Thank you! I really enjoyed the history of the French Guards! Thank you!
Good Day Sir. I’m sorry but I can’t tell if you’re joking or serious. If I honestly crossed a social convention, I do apologize. If you’re joking, well, you got me! Either way, I wish you a wonderful day. Cheers
Fascinating! I had only heard of the Middle Guard before watching this video, and found it to be very helpful. I’m trying to make sense of the uniforms. E.g. at 28:39 the flankers wear great coats, cloth covered shakos, and blue trousers, which elsewhere is labeled campaign dress. Is this winter only or year round? The inside right and left wear white faced coats, uncovered shakos with pompoms, and white trousers. Is this summer campaign dress? The middle figures wear white faced coats, shakos with tall plumes, and white breeches with black over the knee gaiters. Is this parade dress that was not used in battle/on campaign? Finally, were the same shakos used for campaign dress and parade ground, with the cording and plumes added when marching on parade, or did the soldiers receive two shakos, one for parade and one for campaign?
Good questions I’d like an answer to as well.
Is that 5'5" in English inches or French inches? (Remembering that Napoleon's "5'2" was so misinterpreted by the perfidious English)
wonderful video....did you do one on Sappeurs?? Thanks
Interesting chat. Thanks for posting. 🙂
Great video. Just finished painting up some 28mm Middle Guard however struggling to find flags for 1815. Any ideas?
GMB flags?
@@eruditefool4183 sadly not
Hi mate,
Big fan of your channel, helps me put my French napoleonic army together, we dives into it with my group and I have to admit I barely know anything about army organizations.
I have a quick question for you: do you know where I can find the rules for Black Powder for the French, Prussia, Russian and Austrian armies for the period of 1805-1812?
Thanks in advance.
There's no official rules for them yet. I was a little disappointed they went for 1812 instead of 1805-9 but hey, something to look forward to!
@@NapoleonicWargaming any unofficial rules you could recommend?
Thanks for your reply and keep your amazing work
@@Ymlhael there were some on TMP but I can't seem to find it...don't know if it's been removed. Maybe it'd be a good topic for a future video!
@@NapoleonicWargaming @Ymlhael have any 1805-1812 rules been written yet for the French, Prussians, Austrians, and Russians?
Thank you for interest video
thank you
There was no Middle Guard technically, administration all were the Young Guard. 3&4 Grenadier and 3&4 Chasseur, were nicknamed the middle guard.
The young guard werent a thing until 1809, so the were sepatate at least until then. Its bery confusing and doesnt really impact on the tabletop, which is the focus of the channel. For this series I thought it best to separate the guard by unit, but all that said, interesting point!
Did you paint the Battalion in Great Coats? What Brand are the figures please?
At the start? Not mine, but they are Victrix
The perpetual downside of "Elite" Units. You take the best and put them in special units, thereby depriving the regular units of guys who would have made excellent NCO's and officers...then you put the "elite" units into absolutely dreadful situations where they get massacred. Then you proclaim the elite units were so much better than the line units...partially because you gutted the line units of competent soldiers. (and historically, some "elite units" were formed for specific missions, especially in WWII and by the time they were trained, the specific mission had been cancelled. Thinking of 1st Special Service Force that was supposed to join the Brits in Norway and ended up as reinforcements in Italy after the Norway idea flamed out.) And tho the Elite Units might have played well in the press and propaganda, their existence usually ticked off your regular units morale because they saw the Elites getting better gear and first dibs on supplies.
I don't think that was ever an issue. You see strong and highly capable personnel in every facet of military life, not just special operations forces. SOF are also not uniform in their capabilities. You will observe many people who excell in the military and do not join such prestigious units, simply because it is not in their interest, or there don't happen to be slots. So what you say, is actualy not lacking, but a *thing* in modern day militaries. You will find "overqualified" and super intelligent people all over the place, not just in specific branches or units.
@@lkvideos7181 Another thing is that with Napoleon's Guard the men accepted into the guard were usually of well above average height. This means that the excellent soldiers who would otherwise have joined the guard (discipline record, citation for bravery, skills, experience) had to remain in the line due to not meeting height requirements (unless you received legion of Honour). Now...you had to be 173cm tall to join the chasseurs of the guard. This is approx 1 standard deviation above average height meaning that at the very most only 20% of your veterans would be able to join. For the grenadiers at 178cm we are down to maybe 5% of veterans if not less.
A French battalion on campaign had 500-600 men, perhaps closer to full complement just at leaving the barracks for the campaign. Will taking say 2 'best' men from that unit make it noticeably worse? If 200 or so fresh conscripts from that unit begin taking step backs or running away what are the few experienced soldiers supposed to do? They will have to follow them.... the fact that these 2 men can shoot 4 rounds a minute wont change the firepower of the battalion since recruits can manage say 2.5 shot per minute, 2 men wont be able to order the men after the lines had been shattered by cannon fire and so on...
Of course this is all within reason, taking few men from a battalion wont change it drastically, but taking 50 may very well make it far less organised in the heat of battle and indeed you could make a point that prior to the invasion of Russia, at its greatest extent the imperial guard was simply too big at some 21 regiments containing best veterans and cream of the conscripts but this is a material for a big study, not a paragraph in yt comment section.
Sorry but I strongly disagree. I'd pick a toughened 30-40y ( most Old Guard were actualy barely older than 30-35 ) old professional in a profession where men die young, with tons of exp on his back, over 18-25y olds, any day of the week.
Indeed, just look at the age of best marathon runners, surprisingly they aren't exactly very young.
1805*, by 1905 the french army was outdated
1905? Lol