Brightline West has a few things going for it: - Brightline Orlando project showed that this company is not just a pie in the sky startup - Construction techniques and methods are know solutions so costs should be well known - Right of Way is manageable, no tunnels or significant bridges - Ridership should be steady - Train and running gear are known PS - Hope they meet the timeline PS2 - Appreciate your putting this video together!
I think the best thing it has going for it is that a private company thinks its worth building and that doesn't happen unless they think they can turn a profit. I think they have two big engineering challenges: 1) figuring out how to build it in the median without significantly disrupting the freeway. 2) logistics of delivering materials and workforce where needed along a 150 mile stretch of desert.
The ROW is really not that great in this section. There will be loads of challenges engineering the path and reconfiguring the highway. I'm surprised by how much of this section is planned to be single track. That is going to severely limit frequency options especially given that there are sections with speed restrictions. Lastly, even with well engineered safety barriers, running the line at grade rather than elevated on the median it has to be assumed that one day a car or truck is going to end up on the track due to an accident. There will need to be very good safety sensors with redundancies to avoid a potentially catastrophic event.
I just hope that announcements for trains departing Las Vegas will be something like “Train leaving on Track 5 for Apple Valley, Hesperia, and Rancho Cu…camonga!”
Trains = Relatively quiet, low vibration especially for passenger trains. Government. Alright bucko slow down so you don't wake up the children. Meanwhile the like 12 lane highway next door which is likely loud af
There are only a few places in this portion where there is even minimal concern about it. However, the rules apply to rail the same as they do anything else. It's worth noting that the train could run quite a bit faster over the route than planned and still have no issues with sound and vibration. I think their relatively low planned speeds in service has more to do with Brightline's operational plans and the amount of side track they plan to utilize to keep to their timetables. It also worth noting that a big part of the sound and vibration impact is the freeway being expanded and that source being pushed closer to sensitive receptors as a result.
The root of the video is that I live within driving distance of the Rancho station, so why not check it out? It dawned on me I could stand at the exact viewpoint of the render. I came closer to the view than I thought I would.
Lucid: Thank you for the road trip on I-15. I have been out west, but not this area. With your direction on how the tracks are going to run. I see the vision of how the track are going to run. Well done sir.
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was a good time to go. Things were a little bit green thanks to our wet winter. Usually this area is very hot and dry!
CLARIFICATION: since I'm running into this over and over... there are parts in the video where I say the speed limit in X area is "due" to sound and vibration impacts. This might be part of the issue, but really those are just the speed limits indicated in the sound and vibration impact report. There ARE places impacted in this way, but there is no direct indicator that speeds in an given area are what they are solely to limit those impacts. UPDATE: Some minor changes have been made public. Check out the link in the description for that. UPDATE: recent information from Brightline has increased the cost estimate of this project to $12 billion. Minor clarification: I state that the Rancho-Apple Valley trip will take 40 mins and the train will average 95mph. The trip will take 40 minutes IF the train stops at the Hesperia station. IF that is the case, the train will average 77 mph while in motion assuming a 2 minute stop per Brightline's timetables in the environmental assessment. However, if a train is a through train and there is no stop at Hesperia, the trip from Rancho to Apple Valley is scheduled to take 35 mins, and this is an average of 84mph. I have no idea where I got 95mph. Thanks to Brian Bundridge for the comment pointing out this additional, pertinent information that I missed.
Tesla remains the ultimate in both safety and traffic reduction through use as an Uber Lyft Turo Hertz etc vehicle Platform but having said that and to increase both real estate and tourist "values" if this effort *"pans out"* as used to be said of the gold rush Years yes, absolutely a very positive benefit to both Los Angeles and Las Vegas during a very difficult time as well...and not just for Southern California but Florida now as well.
$12 billion? LOL Pull my other finger.... If they can do Las Vegas to Apple Valley for $40 billion, they will be doing better than most experts in rail construction suggest. Getting from Apple Valley over Cajon will at least equal to that.
Thanks. That's what I was hoping to provide. It was fun even driving the route and imagining the train next to me even though I'd driven that stretch many times.
The relatively slow, average speed up to Hesperia is largely due to the need to climb/descend a mountain pass. It is a winding climb necessitating that slower speed. Given those limitations, it seems pretty high speed to me. 🤷🏻♂️
I came to the same conclusions. I think the quite narrow nature of the median in that portion also plays a part. It seems like any point between Rancho and Vegas that only has room for one track has a relatively low speed limit(Victorville and Barstow as well, for example)
To build the section from Rancho Cucamonga to apply valley, that’s already huge logistical nightmare. Look at the I-15 freeway and Cajon pass through the rush hour. I live in Victorville since 2012 and I can’t even imagine how do they planning to cope with a traffic dilemma during the construction of the train tracks??????
Same way they've dealt with the construction up to this point! It has amazed me driving around lately just how many roads are under construction. It seems like it hasn't ended anywhere in the last 10 years. I do think widening the freeway or replacing overpasses will be more expensive than they think. To do so over 218 miles of the freeway seems like it would be very expensive and in some places it looks like its going to be tricky.
@@LucidStew right now at LAX they building the people mover which is 3 miles long. And It took them almost full 3 years to complete and almost $4 billion . Now this project at such a magnitude…!!??!! I don’t know at this point how they planning to approach to make that happen to be done by 2027. If that would be somewhere in China… yeah I can say I believe it. But not this days in USA. A simple overpass over I-15 freeway in Hesperia took them way more then a year back in 2013-2014
@@artfromcalifornia104 Does seem optimistic. They do have experience, but they also haven't built in California. One thing they have going for them is that a lot of the ROW is in the middle of nowhere and they'll only need to concern themselves with the freeway median for a good portion.
I think the segment between Rancho Cucamonga and the Victor Valley has a great potential for commuter rail service, because as you can see, I-15 is greatly restricted while going through Cajon Pass. I still expect that Metrolink will use the line to provide direct service to L.A. Union Station. Metrolink has been an invaluable aid to Brightline West, which was getting nowhere when Brightline and before that, "Desert XPress" or what have you, were going it alone.
Agreed. I-15 through the pass has been a mess for decades and with real estate as expensive as it is, only more people will move to the desert over time.
I like the placement of the line. It plays a little bit with the drivers‘ egos when trains are constantly surpassing them. And I assume building it is easier when all the properties are already state-owned and the highway is not too curvy
As far as I know, they still need to acquire the last 6 miles in the Vegas area. The other 212 miles of ROW is negotiated. This means they can start building the vast majority of it as soon as the Record of Decision is published if they have funding.
Great video, a few corrections - train speed has increased to 200mph with the change of the trainsets to the Velaro Novo EMU's. Per the EIS, between Victor Valley and Rancho Cucamonga, max speed will be 140mph and will run on 45 minute headways with a 35 minute travel time. Page 18 on the EIS. It is assumed they'll run 46 trips per day. Page 51 of the EIS. Up from 23 trains a day.
I see where the disparity is. I was going by the 40mins including Hesperia stop - 2mins for the stop rather than the through time. I also got the average speed wrong, and now I'm wondering where I got 95mph. I was wondering why MY travel time was so close to the train's projected time, thinking it averaged 95mph. I averaged about 70mph. Do you have a solid source that shows it will actually be 200mph in service? I see it in plenty of search results, but I've found media reports to be extremely unreliable on these issues. I'm going to be dedicating half a day to driving out to Vegas and back for my next video, so I'd like to get the facts as correct as I can. Personally I'm a little baffled how they're going to get the train to full speed and still take 2h20mins to get there.
I’ve only been seeing 180mph and a 2 hour 15 minute travel time between RC and LV, including on their website. Can you share the EIS or whichever document it says train speeds will now be 200mph?
@@ChrisJones-gx7fc ruclips.net/video/zik44EnmOhI/видео.html Brightline West themselves are stating 200mph. I believe it is also noted in the change order for Brightline West they will operate at 200mph with the Novo trainset
@@bbundridge Sorry about the delay getting back. As usual, YT is not notifying me on all comments. Yeah, he says 90 mins and 200mph in reference to Apple Valley-Las Vegas. That's 7 mins faster than the EIR timetables, so its hard to tell if that's a new goal or he's just generalizing. Still difficult to see where they're at top speed(180 or 200) for any significant portion and still taking 90 mins. I'll definitely mention it in the Apple Valley - Las Vegas video, though. Thanks for the heads up.
I definitely know what you mean about believing Brightline will finish and open this...if they break ground. They don't have a record so far of leaving work half done, but they're very willing to let things sit as un-funded, nebulously future plans until and unless somebody funds them (e.g. the delayed Boca and Aventura stations on the original segment between Miami and West Palm, or the Cocoa station on the new Orlando extension. We'll see what comes after the environmental approvals, if they actually have the money or not. The point about CAHSR came up at one of the recent CAHSR meetings, and the fact that they have to compete with Brightline West for funding while they'd prefer to partner was raised by one of the project leaders. I think ultimately both trains are good plans, the issue is straight up not enough money to go around for improved rail (whether you call Brightline West HSR or something else, it's still a dang fast train).
And this route has existed as a project for almost 20 years. They know more or less what they need to do to run a new passenger line here and roughly what it will cost. Conceivably it gets passed on to the next owner. This has been our experience with it so far, which is why I'm a little skeptical until they actually start it. But, as time goes on, the plan wont need to change much, and the motivation to build it will increase, so seems like something that will definitely happen EVENTUALLY.
@@LucidStew I'd love to see Brightline in the business of "finishing plans other people did most of the lifting to identify and get approved," maybe move on to something like the Texas Central next, but...they need to break ground here before anything like that makes it out of the world of foamer fantasies.
@@mentalillness1574 Eh. If it was privately funded, I could see the state GOP turning around on it like Florida's GOP state government did on rail once they swapped Obama-era HSR for privately-constructed medium speed private rail with Brightline. All of a sudden it's not the evil "government socialism," it's good American corporations doing what California can't, proving why Texas is better or whatever. But like...that assumes it's funded, one way or another, Brightline or other.
Federal infrastructure money is likely to vanish as part of a congressional budget deal. Costs on the Florida Miami-Orlando route grew appreciably. The passenger project was perhaps in part an excuse to rebuild an aging freight rail line and restore it to dual tracks (with new single track for now, expandable to double track on the new line from the coast to Orlando airport).
Good points. It does have to be remember that the Republicans control the House for the time being. Although, Republicans in the 21st century seem to enjoy spending quite a bit and infrastructure is a thing that is ok for them to indulge in.
Brightline has said they may make the section leaving Cajon pass to Vegas 200mph. Brightline and metrolink have now agreed to run hourly so that every train will have a connection at RC. That also means it will integrate better with the statewide transit network. I expect Brightline will run as fast as they can wherever they can give the EMUs allow quick acceleration and deceleration. I also expect them to push FRA track geometry to the limit and may get wavers to allow places with 6-8in of superevlation and 5-7in of unbalanced superevlation along with 4-4.5% grades.
The issue with the whole Metrolink connection is that its pretty slow to Los Angeles. Rancho to Union Station is a 75 minute ride even though its only about 40 miles as the crow flies, and of course you also have to get to Union. Probably turns into a 4 hour+ , 3 seat+ trip. It's not terrible, though. I could still see people doing that. Here's to hoping Brightline will be forthcoming with information beyond the EIRs. After driving it, I'm very interested to see how it plays out. You can see the challenges. You can see the areas where they could run fast. How it all combines into their time tables is the confusing part to me because it seems like that could do much better than 2h20m.
@@LucidStew It is slow to downtown LA but that at least gives them a transit connection to the wider region. I expect they'll have made the timetable conservative and if they can deliver better than they'll change it. Easier to under promise and over deliver than get sued when you can't meet what was planned.
@@LucidStew I remember in 2013ish Metrolink used to run an express commuter service from Cucamonga station to Union Station, but it's discontinued now. Iirc, there were only 2-3 stops made between Rancho and DTLA on that service and there were only a few of these trains per day. But it was an amazing service that took only 45 minutes and a lot of LA County sheriffs and USC students commuting to LA took advantage of this. It makes sense they could bring back that service, because if you've ever taken Metrolink from Rancho to LA, you may have noticed the majority of commuter passengers get on from just a handful of stations (Claremont, Covina). And a 45-50 minute connection makes this whole thing work way better imo, compared to the standard 60-70min service that's running now.
@@mrxman581 It depends where you're headed once you get there. It's less than 3 miles to the south end of The Strip proper. They're planning to have shuttles for various casinos and places like Allegiant. I'll tell you right now, after driving home from there a couple of different times and it taking more than 5 hours, I'd take this train instead if the price were reasonable. That's with me being able to get to Vegas in 3 hours driving on a good day, and it taking me roughly 40 minutes to get to the Rancho station.
@@mrxman581 I've hit a snow storm at Mountain Pass before in the middle of the day, so it's not always at night. 😄 But, yeah, some of my worst experiences were at night, too.
Great video thanks for keeping us up-to-date . Far as the environmental studies go . How can the train be any noisier than the road with all that traffic ? This is why nothing ever gets done too many studies. people want to get your hands and everybody’s pockets.
Union Pacific's City of Los Angeles took about 6 hours to go from LAUPT to Las Vegas. Speed could exceed 100 mph once past Dagget where U. P. left trackage rights on AT&SF. While Brightline is expected to be several hours faster, I question the cost .
Even more interesting to me than the budget is that they plan to lay all the track in one year. If they can do that, or even come close, that would speed up the possibility of other city pairs immensely. I'm really interested to see how this works out over the next 5 years.
This is an interesting video. It amazes me that a church.....a church....is causing the speed of a train to be decreased. Also, are you stating that this railway will be a one-track railway for the entire route? If so, that makes no sense to me. While your attitude with Brightline and CAHSR are the same (you'll "believe it when I see it"), California has actually started construction. Brightline has not. Additionally, neither California nor the Feds have funded CAHSR the way it should, and that's partly why construction is slow, and costs keep going up. I also have the same attitude with Brightline in that I'll believe it as I see it, given this railway has been TALKED about for years.
@@LucidStew Yes. Cali has at least $95 billion more worth to build but it is also more complicated and much longer than Brightline's. I get that people are googly-eyed about Brightline, but it is important to recognize how much more complex California's railway has been up to this point.
@@TheRailwayDrone I briefly compare the two projects in the video. My general conclusion on the subject(not in the video) is that its not necessarily a good thing that CAHSR was intentionally designed as an expensive system. Had it been designed slightly more modestly, it could still be adequately fast, but much more likely to be completed due to lower cost.
5-6% grade in a couple of spots. HSR trains have a very high power to weight ratio and can handle that. They won't be going very fast, though. Stopping in the downhill portion if something goes wrong is the greater concern.
I'm beginning to have very serious reservations about the feasibility of Brightline West's Las Vegas project because of the narrowness of the Right-of-Way at the southern end of the route. From an examination of the I-15 median along the southern section of the route (between Victorville and Rancho Cucamonga) using Google Earth, it appears that median width is about thirty feet. North of Barstow it appears to be about a hundred feet. It seems foolish to invest ten billion dollars on a project that will have only a single track. It can never be doubled at a reasonable cost. Moreover there's not enough width to have passing tracks without shifting the highway lanes laterally on one side of I-15. Still another problem with using the median is the undesirability of having high speed trains racing past motorists on I-15 at very close distances. Imagine having a train approaching you at 180-200 miles an hour at the same time you're going toward the train at 70 miles an hour. The wind displacement in front of the train will be tremendous, and possibly dangerous, even if there is a barrier wall. Union Pacific's main line goes down the middle of MoPac Expressway here in Austin, the state capital, in a median that is only sixty feet wide, and it can be startling when you're going 70 MPH and the oncoming freight train is going 70 MPH. If anyone doubts me, drive along I-10 in LA and face an oncoming Metrolink commuter train in the narrow median of the highway....and the train is probably going only 60 MPH. Also, the experience of riding a high speed train with nothing to look at but huge numbers of cars and trucks coming and going will prove to be tedious and boring. There are many reasons why Brightline West will not be successful, and the ones I've cited are just a few of them. They would be better off building a double track line along BNSF and UP on their own 200 feet wide private right-of-way. It would take longer, but cost less in the long run. Your videos are excellent.
Yeah, most of the way between Rancho and Apple Valley there is no room for more than a single track, but they are not planning to double track much of that part. Basically in and out of the stations on the ends, which will be on the side of the freeway, not the median. Hesperia will be the exception, but the plan is to redo that intersection completely to make room. The EIR indicates they'll need an additional 5 miles or so of passing siding to expand from 45 minute headways to 22.5 minute. I'm pretty sure this will be in the pass where the right of way splits. Good point on the various effects of the train on the freeway traffic. No sure what they're planning there, whether it is to sink or elevate, or higher barriers. The train will also not be super fast on this portion. (~85mph average), although the median in the desert is not particularly wide as it applies to the point either as the next video will show. My only experience with this is the Metro Gold Line in the 210 median, which didn't seem to be an issue, but that's light rail and not particularly fast. I've driven that stretch of the 10 a million times, but don't recall ever seeing a train on those tracks. Maybe I just don't remember it.
@@LucidStewI think Metrolink runs commuter trains in the I-10 median between El Monte and Cal State campus every 45 minutes in each direction. I haven't been to LA in twenty years, so they might have changed the schedules. I'm very skeptical of Brightline West's ability to generate sufficient revenue for viability without direct service to and from LA Union Station. The west side and north side of LA are the affluent parts of the city, and the areas whose residents are most likely to travel to Vegas. If they have to drive to RC to board the high speed trains, they're going to be much less likely to use the service, especially if they live in the San Fernando Valley. You're doing an outstanding job on all of your high speed videos. Continue the really good exploratory coverage of both CHSR and Brightline West. And consider covering the rapidly growing Texas Triangle and the imminent failure of Texas Central. We need high speed rail badly, especially on the I-35 corridor between Dallas/Ft. Worth and Austin/San Antonio, where highway congestion continues to get worse. The growth in the corridor is incredible.
@@michaeljones7927 Roughly 10 million people live within 50 miles of the Rancho station. I don't think inconvenience for west siders is all that important in the face of that. I think they'll do great on weekends, holidays, and when there's a Raiders game. Question is if that's enough. They're not going to compete so much with packing 5 people into a car, but I don't think that's what they're going for and there are plenty of upper middle class people in other parts of socal. I do agree it would be more useful if they could get a single seat to Union Station. That looks daunting from the Rancho station because that Metrolink route is pretty funky. Could happen in 50 years when CAHSR gets to Palmdale... I like HSR as a topic and have followed Texas Central somewhat. I do think thats the project that makes the most sense out of any of them. It's probably something I'll get to, but I need to get back up to speed on it. I once argued with someone from Texas about it and I tried to tell them CAHSR would have been a lot easier 40 years ago, and Texas in 40 years is about where California is now in terms of space, sprawl, and infrastructure.
@@mrxman581 Sorry but don't thiink so. Rather see a Bakersfield to Burbank Tejon Pass Route instead. The Tehachapi and Pacheco Pass routes are way too expensive. Besides even if the Pacheco Pass is built it will be long before the Tehachapis and then you have the problem of tunnels through the San Gabes. Forget Palmdale.
@@mrxman581I agree there is plenty of money in the federal and state budgets to spend more on rail transit. However, the $66 Billion in FRA funds will be spread out over five or more years . The NEC and Amtrak will get the bulk of it. There is plenty of competition for the remainder around the country. Think of the Chcago hub and all of the cities that want to be connected faster. Atlanta wants to connect better to Charlotte, Nashville, Savannah and Dallas. Ohio,Tennessee, Virginia and Florida all want better passenger rail service. Besides the Midwest and Southeast I am sure the Mountain Zone (Arizona, Utah and Colorado) and the Pacific Northwest all have made grant requests. My favorite competitor for funds is Brightline West. I wish CAHSR could get more federal funding but I do not see it to be to be significantly enough. You are right when you say the state because that is where probably atleast 75% of the money will have to come from unless the Feds double and triple down. PS -- I always enjoy your comments a lot.
They already have one going to Miami to Orlando for awhile now it's Orlando to Tampa.Seems to be going good except the train hits a lot of cars in Miami because they are on the tracks.
Not just Miami, though I think there's been just one wrecked car between West Palm Beach and Orlando so far. Yesterday, I watched an elderly driver barely make it under a descending gate, then hesitate on the track and barely make it under the backside gate. So far, the Miami-West Palm Beach leg has resulted in about 100 fatalities, the worst such situation in the country.
Very interesting, we have been curious on its development. 45 minutes is about par when driving from HD to SB on a good day, commuters or vegas traffic? 90min plus though. This train might be a great step in reducing congestion in cajon pass.
Yeah, as is apparent in the video traffic was pretty good that day. That was one thing I found interesting when I looked into it a little deeper. It's kind of two systems in one. Hesperia-Rancho is meant mainly for commuters. Ridership projections are almost always overblown, but they anticipate about 1,500 people using this to commute on a given work day. Rancho-Vegas is destination traffic. They anticipate the biggest impact on weekends and holidays. They have total Rancho-Vegas demand exceeding capacity on weekends/holidays and that's 23 trips each direction, 2/3 of the trains carrying 400 people, 1/3 carrying 800. I remember one time coming home(n. rialto) from work in Montclair on new years eve weekend at about 5pm. Took the 15 without even thinking about it. It was stop and go all the way back to Baseline. And that was back before most of the development up in north Fontana. Not just Cajon Pass though, I've also been stuck in 5 mph traffic between state line and Baker before, which was surreal because there is NOTHING out there. Can you imagine sitting there watching a 150mph train zoom by? It would make you think twice next time you went out there.
It's kind of funny how the government is being picky about keeping noise levels down around Sacred Heart. That church is literally wedged between the 15 Freeway in the back, and sits mayybbe 20ft off of Route 66 in the front (Foothill Blvd). It's possibly in the loudest spot in the entire city and I don't think a train going over 80MPH added to the mix would make an ounce of difference lol.
I misspoke in that section of the video. The speed is not necessarily DUE to sound and vibration impacts, but rather the speed limit for that section is indicated in sound and vibration impact report.
I don’t know how common this is in the U.S. but in Europe when there is construction on a freeway, very often one or even two lanes get temporarily shifted over the median to the side with traffic running in the other direction. Once railway tracks are in the median, such a thing will no longer be possible.
It is regular practice here to build freeways in stages and keep traffic going during construction. I would agree that train tracks in the median will complicate this, but I would also say that a lot of southern California freeway ROWs are either at or near capacity and probably wont be expanded beyond their present boundaries.
@@LucidStew How different the laws and regulations are between countries. Roads, railways, canals are planned by the government in Germany and I’d say most Europe and as long as they follow all procedures correctly (incl. weighing the environmental impact) and, if contested, courts confirm this, then it’s going to be build. There are no pre-existing rights, every expansion has to go through this process. But once approved, property rights of the land needed are all taken care by eminent domain. Of course when it comes to tearing down residential housing, you need good reasons that there was no other way to route the traffic. But then I’d say 90% of all freeway construction in Germany is maintenance of the road surface, of bridges, of tunnels, or smaller things like signage, water runoff management, or remodelling an exit.
@@aphextwin5712 Its very similar here. We are generally dealing with 4 levels of government: Federal, State, County, Municipal. Any project has processes it has to go through with the various governments and levels of governments affected and involved. Many times all levels are involved in funding in some way. California in particular is laden with freeways. A lot of these were started in the 1950s with an established initial right of way. In many cases those ROWs filled and were expanded. Most urban and suburban areas have expanded to directly abut the freeway ROWs. This makes it extremely expensive and nearly politically impossible to expand them further. Some of these still have room to expanding the existing freeway within the existing ROW, but a lot of freeways already fill them. It is EXTREMELY difficult to build a new freeway in California, and I would say impossible in any area that is already developed. We have eminent domain as well. It is used sometimes. However, individual property rights in the U.S. are pretty strong and the litigation that can result can delay large projects or increase their cost. This has happened with CAHSR while trying to acquire land in the Central Valley. It has also managed to trip up the Texas Central line between Houston and Dallas, Texas.
@@LucidStew Expanding roads has become more difficult in Germany as well but more on a societal level. More stringent environmental regulations, more general environmental protests at cutting for example through a forest and overall concern that more roads lead to more traffic and thus greenhouse gas emissions as well as other pollution (noise, air). Coming back to railways, over the last couple of decades, new high speed lines have frequently been situated largely adjacent to freeways where possible because this minimises dividing wildlife habitats further and minimises the number of people exposed to increased noise pollution. Since medians are very rarely wider than a few meters (4 m is the standard that can be reduced to 2.5 m in cramped conditions), nothing is really put there. Having the high speed line on one side also makes it possible to smoothen out curves of the freeway that are too tight for HSR.
We just keep one or two lanes open and keep it moving. If all lanes need to be closed then construction is only at night and traffic is diverted to local roads.
Yes it is billed as "high speed" but that is not the overall goal I don't think. The bigger issue is will it help to lessen car traffic in LA area and on 15 freeway which is way overloaded already.
Brightline is predicting they will pull quite a bit of traffic off the road. The thing is, the faster it goes the more people will use it. Hopefully they will build it and we can see how it turns out.
@@mrxman581 Thirty years ago, Portland, Oregon figured that a light rail tunnel paralleling a surface expressway would be the passenger equivalent of adding a lane in each direction to the expressway, with the added benefit of reducing traffic on side streets and need for parking lots. I doubt that Brightline will make much a dent in the heavy traffic.
People need to temper their expectations. HSR fans will expect this train to haul ass through the entire line . Even the Shinkansen has slow speed sections as it approaches near Tokyo and other major terminal cities. On the Tohoku Shinkansen, it reaches max speed between Omiya and Sendai, then from there to Morioka.
I think as long as its moving faster than the freeway, they'll be ok. People seeing cars passing the train for any significant portion would hurt perception. I'm fairly confident though that it will be quite fast between Baker, CA and the Las Vegas area.
I'm not a fan of interim 1 track builds for roundtrip trains. Why doesn't Brightline West privately fund 2-tracks between Las Vegas and Victor Valley and lobby hard with Metrolink to receive federal funding for a 53-mile, 2-track HSR extension in the High Desert highway median between Victor Valley & Palmdale? The High Desert route is already Environmentally-Cleared. Since it would not have account for the steep slope of I-15 Freeway median, speeds on the High Desert median viaduct could be 185-200 mph for faster trip times. Brightline could lease track time for express trains while Metrolink runs commuter trains. That would better leverage the State of California's HSR & Regional Rail plans. It would also make a stronger ally in California HSR Authority, who must convince the Feds to lead-fund the Palmdale-Burbank-LA HSR segment.
Palmdale doesn't really make any sense unless CAHSR is there, same as terminating outside Apple Valley didn't make any sense. At least with Rancho they can get it to the other side of the mountains and not wait 20 years+.
Yeah, regionally you're doomed. Vast majority will probably drive to the station. Someone within a half hour of LA Union Station one way or the other might find the whole experience reasonable if they indeed manage to properly align the schedule with Metrolink at the 8th St. station. (roughly 4 hours, which would be all-driving equivalent on a good day)
@@mrxman581 Nope, just to get there. The other end is a little too variable to account for. Realistically you could be at a few places in 5 mins. Others 30-40. I've never had an issue with leaving the car in the parking garage the entire time. You have the monorail, lots of people walk the Strip, you can take the odd shuttle or taxi if you need to go further.
@@mrxman581 It would be competitive time-wise. Maybe 20 minutes slower each way. For that you get to avoid all the inconveniences of flying. Harry Reid is only 2 miles closer to anything. I'm not seeing how you're coming to the conclusion that there's that big a difference.
Those intermediate station locations are bizarre. Has brightline confirmed with certainty thar they're sticking with the original plans for the Hesperia and Apple Valley stations? I feel they would make much more sense in different locations. I also think Barstow deserves a stop.
The Victor Valley station is mainly because that's along the Desert Xpress route, which they purchased. Also, there was a lot of land there for their facilities and presumably also development. They're building Hesperia at the request of San Bernardino County. That will act as a commuter station and is meant more for traffic between Rancho and Hesperia. The way the route moves through Barstow proper, you won't see one there. Because of the freeway, it's going to be single tracked the whole way through and the line has to elevate OVER the UP lines and Main Street. Just guessing, but I would think if they ever put a station up there, it would be in Yermo. I can't see it happening with only 30,000 people up there though. It's not exactly the hotbed of development activity either. You have to remember Brightline is a land acquisition and development company first and a railroad second.
I don't really feel as excited about Brightline West anymore. It sounds like a great fast train and, as someone from Perth, W.A., trains in the centre medians of highways is an aesthetic I'm into. However, that's all it really sounds like, fast rail. It sounds like it's only technically "high-speed" because it travels on a mile-long section of track where the train can theoretically go 150 mph. I guess I also have reservations about Brightline as a private company. Call me a Commie, but I don't exactly trust corporations to run public services.
The biggest thing for me is figuring out how its going to go 180MPH and still take 2h20m to go 218 miles. Personally, I'm hoping the time gets adjusted downward when they start testing it and figuring out what will physically work. Just from messing with the math or the time tables and the max speed, it seems like they should be able to do 1h45m without much trouble if they're running around 175mph in the portions that look like they can support it. Running in the freeway ROW has been an issue people have brought up. We do have that here with commuter rail running
@Lucid Stew of course of course, I get it especially in the Cajon pass, but for example there is no need to follow the tight curves of the highway out in the Mojave desert yk...
@@michelangelobuonarroti4958 I think the main benefit there was avoiding land acquisition costs. The original Desert Xpress plan didn't utilize the median. From Barstow to Vegas outskirts most of that is supposed to be double tracked eventually.
That business of going up the Cajon Pass in the middle of that road don't look to hot, as you mentioned about broadening the median. I glanced at the doc. and thought it didn't appear fully worked out (Ooops, found the drawings now.) and at the rate those people charge one can understand why. I stopped to write this when we cam to what looks like 4 or 5%. Not the best for a downbound train trying to stop.
Not sure what the exact plan is there. They might be to able just barely smooth the climb in and out to 4.5%. If they're planning on running a 5% grade, that's pretty interesting. Based on the distance and projected timetables I was thinking they'll limit themselves to 70-80mph through the pass.
@@LucidStewWould that be the one before Baker? (Was wanting especially to look at Mojave R. and a low-lying Barstow station, but didn't realize it was past till you got to Baker.) I did look at some of the drawings from the Desert Express which is pretty polished FEIS. They keep the vertical bending all the time, and always at slight variance to the road, to smooth it. But I really couldn't tell how many feet apart, just that it seems to vary more than not. With the one starting in Anaheim I'm doing long inclined planes, so it ends up with tunnels , but won't "spill the soup". Almost no time for a diner.
@@brucehain In Cajon Pass there are two major climbing sections and then the middle is relatively level comparatively, so you kind of climb into and then out of it. From experience driving, the one on the north end that brings you into the desert is a little steeper. The portion from Baker north to Hallorin Summit isn't quite as bad. The only other grade I can think of that's an issue like Cajon Pass, from driving experience, is south from the Ivanpah power plant up to Mountain Pass. There are usually quite a few cars and trucks struggling there. I'm getting 5.5% for that from Google's topo map.
@@LucidStew Didn't see this till just now, have spent two days and nights on this obsession with Anaheim-Vegas. I have two ways to get from S. of Rancho C. to Victorville, and can't decide, so am drawing them both! I had six V'ville-Barstow and think will select one, with tunnel, but is the lowest. Will probably stop soon but truly am unable to overrule the compulsion, it's very time consuming in Google Earth though so what gets done... I generally use four Circle Tool circles for a curve under 5000' radius, but the only option after that is eight circles. I believe I drew my largest circle yet this morning - 75000'. That's what one has to do to find out if it works or not. Trying to incorporate a large curve is more complicated than just smacking down tangents. I have learned to sort of sketch, not accurately. Am getting more acquainted with your home state, also AZ, and think if I can get a version that's not embarrassing I might start an email conv. with you by your leave at some point. I was there when I was 17 in '73 - hopped trains going both ways part of the way. partial You make the most intelligent train videos and I like it that you think about routing, curves and grades - all that matters! - most people don't and the railroads and engineers at the public agencies know that. What I've got is several things half-done in place of grinding my axe with the MTA in NY, which is ALSO a hopeless cause. We'll see. I'm very critical of the Hudson Tunnel, it's been 27 years and billions spent. Maybe there's a way to get 'em in court if can show what they're doing is bad enough. These hopeless causes keep me interested and alert, but rather compulsive. Be funny of if Brightline West started building and then stopped. It takes a lot to build a modern railroad in that terrain - but instead of doing it in most cases they're charging for it and giving us something else. My Hudson Tunnel article's a little outdated. They changed the grade config. in 'the box" under Hudson Yards - so it dips then turns up up again before reversing a third time and emerging into the muddy river bottom, very close to the the shipping channel overhead. I don't think anything like that's ever been tried. It's and international disgrace, but that's the part that's not in my spiel at the following: www.rail-nyc-access.com/rail-city-access (If you've already seen the page 'scuse it.)
@@brucehain I feel much the same when working on one of my city pair videos. There is something comforting about being consumed by the minutia of it. If you're unaware of it already, the I-15 express lanes could be a major hinderance between Anaheim and the pass. I discuss it a little in my August Stew's News. I only glanced(mostly the pictures) at the Hudson Tunnel, but I'm looking forward to digging into it after I have my next video done. This is a fascinating subject given the expense and its newsworthiness of late.
ps. If they build it with double track throughout, the stations that are off to the side of the freeways, would have a set of tracks diverge a few km before the station, trainsets can decelerate to stop, then accelerate back to speed to re-join. By having these spurs off and of enable 'through trains' to continue at full speed as not every train will stop at every station. The best example of this is the New LGV - Paris to Boudreaux. Slab track on springs... dampen - eliminate any vibrations and or noise concerns. The HSTs can actually operate at 300kph without any concerns for noise. Fact is without the slab track springs etc.. they pass so quickly, you can live Adjacent to the railways and Not notice the trains passing your home.
There are only two stations between the end points, Hesperia and Apple Valley. The schedule in the EIR indicates that all trains will stop at Apple Valley. Hesperia is planned with a single through track, since it is in the freeway median and space will be tight. Many trains will be through trains at this station as it is only meant to facilitate commuters going to and from Rancho Cucamonga. Trains will stop at Hesperia for passengers only in the morning and evening, but all north and southbound trains are scheduled to arrive simultaneously. I think this would likely not synchronize exactly in practice, so one train will likely have to slow or pause at that station for the other on a fairly regular basis. The biggest sound and vibration concern is that since the train will be in the freeway median nearly the whole way, the freeway will need to be widened in places to facilitate the tracks. The FREEWAY will then be pushed closer to sound and vibration receptors as a result. The other is that the freeways have required sound abatement in place, such as sound walls. There are places were the train is planned to be elevated above those measures. In regards to the various speed limits in the EIR, those are found in the sound and vibration assessment. However, sound and vibration is only one factor in why they will limit speeds in certain places. I likely overemphasized sound and vibration in the equation in this presentation.
@@LucidStew I once lived less than 100m from the 91... it was constant Road noise 24x7. I obviously moved after the initial six months due to lack of sleep. I have lived less than 50m from a HSR with mixed traffic. There was 20 HST per hour each way, 45+ tph of intercity and local services, and a few freight trains per hour. It was the point where two rails joined four rails and expanded to 12 rails. The only time ever notice any of the trains was when a heavy freight train went through the area at 0200... and it was because it blew it's horn when it was raining or foggy. The trains pass so quickly and have a maximum axel load of 17t with new models having aluminium bodies with sound proofing on the trainsets. In the 70s and 80s, HSTs were Noisy and Noisy... with lots of vibrations. A 400m long EMU travelling at 400kph will have less noise and vibrations than a single honda civic on a freeway. I can still remember when the time came each day for the 18wheelers to enter the SoCal / LA basin each night. But to your other points about service patterns and frequencies... What is planned and projected will be thrown out the window within the first year as the service pattern (station stopping or not) will be determined by passengers. These stations are similar to Ebbsfleet · Ashford in UK and Haute-Picardie · Gare d'Arras · Gare de Lille-Europe · Gare de Calais-Fréthun in France. At the moment due to new immigration systems, Eurostars are London · Lille · Gare de Nord (Paris) only (to/from UK). Stations get added... again using Eurostar as an example as it is a point to point service lacking multi branching to make the Spider Map routes... Rotterdam · AMS · Amsterdam Centrel were added. I do have an anticipation because of the PPI nature of the railway infrastructure... the initial operator will be Brightline but there will be others who operate services on the tracks paying the standard access fees. This would enable HST from say San Diego to go slow to San Bernadino (area) to join and onwards to LV. The infrastructure for now is BLine... but in a few years, as it will be very popular due to it's cherry picked nature of highly profitable destinations... could be like LGV Nord (france) having six plus different TOC (train operating companies) having trainsets on the rails each hour or at least each day. When this occurs, BLine will either have to share the rails with competitors or will have to bundle their PPI with US, CA, NV governments into a IPO as a stand alone infrastructure (rails and stations) Ltd - company. This is how the rails in most of the developed world operate. I expect it to be very popular and highly profitable. When it demonstrates this = the others will want their share to maximise the rails. With a minimum fully double tracked LGV can have 20+ tph, a train every three minutes. Paris · Lyon, UK... having to build HS2 because there is insufficient space adjacent to the four plus rails of the UK WCML (west coast main line) for dedicated HSR / LGV services from central London to beyond the commuter belt towns.
There is no HSR line, or fast rail line as this is, in the world that does single track operations. I for one didn't realize that some 70km of the line at the LA end will be single track. This is going to place severe limitations on the frequency and constrain reliability of the service even with passing loops. It is really quite crazy to seriously consider ST ops for what will be a high volume line. BLW will then later incur higher construction and reengineering costs for track duplication than just builing it as dual track from the outset.
@@yappofloyd1905 CA HSR is not just an A to B train / railway... SF to LA... NO. It will be an A to Z (SF to SD) with numerous intermediary stations. Not every train will stop at every station. It is the difference between Milk Run Service (stopping at every station), Selective Stops, and A to Z express. Such a service pattern would be the 00, 15, 30, 45 are Express Non stop SD, LA, SF. the 05, 35 stops at B, D, G. the 10, 40 stops at C, F the 20, 50 stops at B, C, D, E, F, G. This is a standard 12tph frequency diagram. When these and other in-fill stations are added... and the frequency is increased to 20tph... a train every 3 minutes. 18tph to 24tph is standard frequency patterns for EurAsian HST Railways. There is ZERO land available in the SD, LA basin, and SF Bay Region to build another 10 to 20 million higher density housing units. When these HSTs are in operation, the lower priced 'INLAND' New Cities will be long over due Over Flow housing. Yes entire new cities can be constructed where the only thing in the area is a HST Railway. Additionally these Inland Urban Conurbations will be able to have Regional Trains (up to 250kph), Local inner Urban Trains (up to 200kph), and Metro Trains in the cities to have a spider map network centred on the new HST Station... oh and Trams of course. The new cities can ditch the single family home on a hectare of land! Think Central Paris, London, Berlin, Shanghai, ... too many to list with integrated retail, entertainments, and housing ... all in walking or a few stops on trams or metro trains. A tram or metro train to HST station, with a train every x minutes (clock faced timings) and can go into SF or LA etc for everything from entertainment to work and be back... flying past all the cars sitting in the snarl crawl of the freeways (slowways). You are absolutely correct... single track on the SD, LA, SF is a very stupid idea as it is 1 dangerous and 2... far more costly LATER to add the second rail - even when/IF the infrastructure was created at the time on initial build. Brightline is also doing single track on the Orlando to Titusville area... It is a Significantly SLOWER train service but will quickly find within months of opening, it is lacking capacity. The London LizPurp Line was predicted to reach capacity after 5, 7 years... It is already having additional services added because maxed out.
Stop in Apple Valley don't make sense. I could see Victorville, or even Hesperia since they are near the freeway and more city infrastructure. Apple Valley is a bit of a drive away from the city or shops, malls, right off the freeway.
It has to do with purchasing the concept from Desert Xpress, the environmental impact statement and record of decision, both of which were complete for Apple Valley-Vegas, and the ability to acquire enough land for the station, various maintenance facilities, and future development around the station.
It’s one thing to be a negative Nancy, but quite a different thing to be a wishy washy Willy. The latter is no help to anyone. The proposed route is dangerously risky because I15 has NO alternative parallel corridor for interstate commerce to use in case of a catastrophe. Except in metropolitan areas the interstate system is vulnerable and needs redundancy to insure some level of contingency for reliable and predictable interstate transportation. Gambling on Brightline understudied proposal risks the vital transportation corridor between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. The Congress should enact legislation to construct a redundant interstate highway system, mandated to incorporate high speed rail through routes of inhabited land. This way engineers can design sensible integration of rail and vehicular roadways gaining the advantage of speed of construction, uninterrupted existing interstate & rail roadways, and thereby control costs resulting from straight through construction. Creative Calvin helps solve problems!😤
It's possible to get around I-15, but its certainly not convenient. It does bring up the subject of transportation redundancy and how running passenger rail in the interstate ROW works counter to that. Imagine if the NEC ran in the I-95 ROW through Philadelphia... Thing thing about the interstate highway system is that its almost done. I don't think you're going to get much more fresh right of way aside from I-69 or ring roads.
I'm glad someone picked up on the sampling of insane driving behavior captured. I got cut off twice despite moving at an extremely steady and cautious clip for the video. I also love the part in Victorville where the rig driver is in the fast lane. You get used to the craziness in socal after a while. There's a part after the Hesperia station where a rig right next to me on my right drifts about half a tire's worth into my lane from the right somewhat out of control due to wind and the poor road conditions. I didn't move over at all. I was just watching to see if they'd keep going. Par for the course.
@@LucidStew nope, 200khm is the current speed of regular non high-speed intercity in europe using regular mainlines in France, Germany, Belgium, Swiss, Netherlands … high speed trains on high speed line are above 250 on the older ones, and goes to 320kmh on new ones … China operated trains above those speed, but they came back to 320 as the time and economical cost of maintenance of the over-used infrastructure makes it really unprofitable above 330 ….
@@LucidStew indeed, but here its gonna be 200kmh not 200mph. This is not a high speed train : just like brightline florida, that’s just a regular train, but trains sucks so hard in the us that they can sell it like a marvel … this project is a scam, and the cajun pass is probably the best example for it … high speed train on a single railway line in the center of a speedway snaking in the mountains … dude …
@@LucidStew yep, but in this case the train is never gonna get over 125mph ( 200kmh ) : the decided integration of the project in the middle of a highway, and across the cajun pass instead of going under is probably gonna build it faster and cheaper, but in the end this is not an high speed train, but just an intercity.
I'm somewhat of the same mind, but they are fairly committed, having acquired all the necessary agreements and the station sites. Of course, they still need to secure the funding for construction and that's the big question mark.
@@davezobeljr9025 They're planning a single check-in service where you check your bags at the origin station and they're delivered to your room on the other end. You can also check bags otherwise. They have a common large item storage area in each car as well as overhead storage. It's not dissimilar from flying.
@@davezobeljr9025Currently on Brightline FL you can carry up to 28" suitcases on the train with you. There's storage at the end of the car as well as overhead. You an even bring your bicycle on the train. They also have a checked luggage service. This is not worth worrying about in the slightest.
The point is , if you dont read the ground existing you are not in their check book ,yet tho its a bit of a hype like a new rifle caliber coming on the market , yet again out side of the median would be the best because of work crews , man hours cut to because of logistics if crews , materials and production put it out of the interstate , traffic crashes , people distracted by bondage of cell phones , how are crews going to get to and from the equipment to build the grade , and materials used , , drive pilings , concrete trucks , pumptrucks it aint going to fly man , let alone travel to and from job area s at the greed of ones gobbeling rent , food , gas prices out there alone will set your agenda off course , you need eziament out side median, i worked on union pacific rail widing in nebraska up line 3rd track 150 miles of rail grade, i operated excavator right beside number onetrack live rail trains coming at you , SAFETY FIRST , I BEEN IN DIRT WORK , CRANES BRIDGES , PIPE , DRAIN , GRADING FOR OVER 45 YEARS , 8 DOLLAR GAS PER GALLON DAILY AND FOOD , day and night shifts , brightline is hypte up , china driven biden fed to get votes , go spend your money lefty loosey
That's mostly California. I lived in Missouri for a year and it was a more pleasant driving experience. Although, I will say that people with Nevada plates on I-15 are pretty crazy as well. You get used it. No-gos everywhere else, like passing rigs on the right, are par for the course.
Do you seriously think that.... 1) UP is going to simply had over sections of their 9th street right-of-way to Brightline? (good luck) 2) CalTrans is going to sign off on tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars of rebuilding bridges, widening freeway right-of-way. and realignment of bridges and exits for Brightline to build a for-profit railroad? That neighbors are all going to be willing to sell or give away land along these highways to widen them for a train track? or the state is willing to use its power of eminent domain for the benifit of a private for-profit company? (Hint: California passed laws against that in the aftermath of the US Supreme Court's Khalo decision) 3) in the three to four miles you identify, it is possible for a HSR line to elevate a railroad parallel running at Interstate level (on viaducts built into the elevating slopes) to safely a height to safely cross over 4 lanes of freeway (bottom of bridgework must be minimum of 13'-6, 15'+ is national standard), then descend to running down the median at highway grade? All at reasonable railroad grades and curves? (did you pass HS math?) 4) That the highway grades through Cajon pass, which include miles long segments that reach 6% grades are not going to affect railroad operations. (hint: no one in his right mind operates a railroad for any lengthy distance on 6% grades)
1) They don't have to. It's on a viaduct at that point. It also may simply be next to the ROW. It's 8th St., btw. 2) Yes. It is not clear that the freeway ROW needs to be expanded at any point. The implication in EIR is that shoulders will be narrowed. 3) 15-20 feet over a mile is a tiny grade. There are many places where this train would not be high speed. I've actually taken a fair amount of advanced math. Please don't insult people in my comments like you have here. I won't hesitate to block you. This is a singular warning. It won't happen twice(both the warning and the insults) 4) The track doesn't have to be at the exact grade of the freeway. One of the places in the pass in question will be a lower grade than the freeway because the track will be elevated to get over emergency CHP crossovers. The train also will likely not travel very quickly through the pass.
@@LucidStew LOL 1) You do understand that a Viaduct requires supporting pillars.....that are going to have to be set into the ground, not hung from magical skyhooks, don't you? That means they need rights to use the land. 2) Do you imagine that CalTrans is going to magically wave off any need for shoulders on an Interstate? They built them there originally for safety reasons. You think that because Brightline asks, they will be willing to forgo them? That's ludicrous. 3) Do you imagine that a viaduct strong enough to support a railroad is a mere 5' thick? LOL Go out and take a look at existing viaduct construction on CA HSR.. Extended viaducts are considerably thicker.....like 10-15' or more depending on design. That means the rails will need to rise at least 30' in a mile, complete two linked curves over the highway, and descend 30' in the final mile. When easing in and out of the grades is accounted for (no, you can't just tilt the track) the peak grades will be1% or greater, which is significant to railroad operations. 4) "The track doesn't have to be at the exact grade of the freeway." ROTFLMAO It does if it is going to travel down the median.....unless you expect it to travel at GREATER grades. You know, like when you say "it will be elevated to get over emergency CHP crossovers." HSR can't operate on 6% grades. Conventional railroads that hope to safely operate and generate a profit choose not to operate on grades over about 2%. Apparently, you are just ignoring the physics of the whole issue.
This project needs to be funded by the greedy oil companies that are charging $5.00 a gallon for gas in California. This project needs to be funded by all the billionaires who live in California. If each of them would donate a billion as an investment, the could recoup their investment over advertising on the trains video feeds, and train cars wrapped in advertising. We have to think outside the box to get these projects funded. Once operational Americans can then become addicted to high speed rail and the demand for it will be instilled and generational.
Not sure how you force people to make investments. We already tax gas quite heavily directly and through cap and trade(part of the reason its $5/gl). The legislature would be the one you want to talk to about where that money goes.
Although the crisis in Europe does not raise domestic oil production costs, it has raised crude oil prices, and oil companies stand to profit on the difference. This comes at a time when oil companies were already reporting record-high profit levels. Last year, four fossil fuel multinational giants-ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron, and BP-earned more than $75 billion in a single year in profits. Crude oil prices are now up 50 percent higher than their average daily price last year. And these profits are not going into research and development projects that sustain our planet. Forcing them to invest in high speed rail expansion could be leverage by government agencies setting up Rail Funds that are directly funded by the profits of of Big Oil, and if they don’t invest, then they are not allowed to bring their oil to market.
@@gottawatch1932 Sure. I think you have a potential source of revenue there, but it would ultimately amount to a gas tax and that's going to be up to the legislature unless there is a proposition which specifically taxes oil and gas production in the state and funnels those revenues specifically to HSR. In the second part of my CAHSR video I forward an increase in the state gas tax as the only viable means of total funding I could think of without waiting more than 30 years.
Oh boy, more freeways getting torn up to shoehorn rail in the right of way., and motorists have to endure the construction/lane shifts/narrow shoulders/bumps. Total BS.
I've been hearing this perspective a lot and it seems the jury is still very far out in terms of this being a good idea in practice. On the bright side, I-15 through this area has been under near constant construction for the last 10 years, so it won't be out of the ordinary at least? :D I'm trying to stay positive, but that's also shellshock talking from decades of ceaseless road construction in the areas I've lived.
Is their any plans for bright line to lay tracks from Los Angeles to Northern California via the tejon passing really interested in bright line west expanding through out all of California
Los Angeles and San Bernardino Counties are planning a high speed connection between BLW and California High Speed Rail between Victorville and Palmdale. Conceivably, if CAHSR reaches Palmdale from the north, that would allow high speed trains to run from northern California to Las Vegas.
Brightline West has a few things going for it:
- Brightline Orlando project showed that this company is not just a pie in the sky startup
- Construction techniques and methods are know solutions so costs should be well known
- Right of Way is manageable, no tunnels or significant bridges
- Ridership should be steady
- Train and running gear are known
PS - Hope they meet the timeline
PS2 - Appreciate your putting this video together!
I think the best thing it has going for it is that a private company thinks its worth building and that doesn't happen unless they think they can turn a profit. I think they have two big engineering challenges: 1) figuring out how to build it in the median without significantly disrupting the freeway. 2) logistics of delivering materials and workforce where needed along a 150 mile stretch of desert.
The ROW is really not that great in this section. There will be loads of challenges engineering the path and reconfiguring the highway. I'm surprised by how much of this section is planned to be single track. That is going to severely limit frequency options especially given that there are sections with speed restrictions. Lastly, even with well engineered safety barriers, running the line at grade rather than elevated on the median it has to be assumed that one day a car or truck is going to end up on the track due to an accident. There will need to be very good safety sensors with redundancies to avoid a potentially catastrophic event.
I just hope that announcements for trains departing Las Vegas will be something like “Train leaving on Track 5 for Apple Valley, Hesperia, and Rancho Cu…camonga!”
Trains = Relatively quiet, low vibration especially for passenger trains. Government. Alright bucko slow down so you don't wake up the children. Meanwhile the like 12 lane highway next door which is likely loud af
There are only a few places in this portion where there is even minimal concern about it. However, the rules apply to rail the same as they do anything else. It's worth noting that the train could run quite a bit faster over the route than planned and still have no issues with sound and vibration. I think their relatively low planned speeds in service has more to do with Brightline's operational plans and the amount of side track they plan to utilize to keep to their timetables. It also worth noting that a big part of the sound and vibration impact is the freeway being expanded and that source being pushed closer to sensitive receptors as a result.
Not having this double tracked is going to be it Achilles heel
That’s superimposition you did at the very beginning of the video is so cool! Gonna have to check out more of your videos. Good work.
The root of the video is that I live within driving distance of the Rancho station, so why not check it out? It dawned on me I could stand at the exact viewpoint of the render. I came closer to the view than I thought I would.
@@LucidStew
Well, that kind of vision is how cinema is made. Keep it up.
Lucid: Thank you for the road trip on I-15. I have been out west, but not this area. With your direction on how the tracks are going to run. I see the vision of how the track are going to run. Well done sir.
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was a good time to go. Things were a little bit green thanks to our wet winter. Usually this area is very hot and dry!
CLARIFICATION: since I'm running into this over and over... there are parts in the video where I say the speed limit in X area is "due" to sound and vibration impacts. This might be part of the issue, but really those are just the speed limits indicated in the sound and vibration impact report. There ARE places impacted in this way, but there is no direct indicator that speeds in an given area are what they are solely to limit those impacts.
UPDATE: Some minor changes have been made public. Check out the link in the description for that.
UPDATE: recent information from Brightline has increased the cost estimate of this project to $12 billion.
Minor clarification: I state that the Rancho-Apple Valley trip will take 40 mins and the train will average 95mph. The trip will take 40 minutes IF the train stops at the Hesperia station. IF that is the case, the train will average 77 mph while in motion assuming a 2 minute stop per Brightline's timetables in the environmental assessment. However, if a train is a through train and there is no stop at Hesperia, the trip from Rancho to Apple Valley is scheduled to take 35 mins, and this is an average of 84mph. I have no idea where I got 95mph. Thanks to Brian Bundridge for the comment pointing out this additional, pertinent information that I missed.
Tesla remains the ultimate in both safety and traffic reduction through use as an Uber Lyft Turo Hertz etc vehicle Platform but having said that and to increase both real estate and tourist "values" if this effort *"pans out"* as used to be said of the gold rush Years yes, absolutely a very positive benefit to both Los Angeles and Las Vegas during a very difficult time as well...and not just for Southern California but Florida now as well.
$12 billion? LOL Pull my other finger....
If they can do Las Vegas to Apple Valley for $40 billion, they will be doing better than most experts in rail construction suggest. Getting from Apple Valley over Cajon will at least equal to that.
Really cool video! It's awesome to visualize the route like this!
Thanks. That's what I was hoping to provide. It was fun even driving the route and imagining the train next to me even though I'd driven that stretch many times.
The relatively slow, average speed up to Hesperia is largely due to the need to climb/descend a mountain pass. It is a winding climb necessitating that slower speed. Given those limitations, it seems pretty high speed to me. 🤷🏻♂️
I came to the same conclusions. I think the quite narrow nature of the median in that portion also plays a part. It seems like any point between Rancho and Vegas that only has room for one track has a relatively low speed limit(Victorville and Barstow as well, for example)
To build the section from Rancho Cucamonga to apply valley, that’s already huge logistical nightmare. Look at the I-15 freeway and Cajon pass through the rush hour. I live in Victorville since 2012 and I can’t even imagine how do they planning to cope with a traffic dilemma during the construction of the train tracks??????
Same way they've dealt with the construction up to this point! It has amazed me driving around lately just how many roads are under construction. It seems like it hasn't ended anywhere in the last 10 years. I do think widening the freeway or replacing overpasses will be more expensive than they think. To do so over 218 miles of the freeway seems like it would be very expensive and in some places it looks like its going to be tricky.
@@LucidStew right now at LAX they building the people mover which is 3 miles long. And It took them almost full 3 years to complete and almost $4 billion . Now this project at such a magnitude…!!??!! I don’t know at this point how they planning to approach to make that happen to be done by 2027. If that would be somewhere in China… yeah I can say I believe it. But not this days in USA. A simple overpass over I-15 freeway in Hesperia took them way more then a year back in 2013-2014
@@artfromcalifornia104 Does seem optimistic. They do have experience, but they also haven't built in California. One thing they have going for them is that a lot of the ROW is in the middle of nowhere and they'll only need to concern themselves with the freeway median for a good portion.
@@LucidStew I just hope they will build that train as soon as possible if possible tomorrow.
I think the segment between Rancho Cucamonga and the Victor Valley has a great potential for commuter rail service, because as you can see, I-15 is greatly restricted while going through Cajon Pass. I still expect that Metrolink will use the line to provide direct service to L.A. Union Station. Metrolink has been an invaluable aid to Brightline West, which was getting nowhere when Brightline and before that, "Desert XPress" or what have you, were going it alone.
Agreed. I-15 through the pass has been a mess for decades and with real estate as expensive as it is, only more people will move to the desert over time.
Great video! So informative. I can’t wait!
Thanks for the update, I am very curious about Brightline West updates.
Thanks for the new info.
I like the placement of the line. It plays a little bit with the drivers‘ egos when trains are constantly surpassing them. And I assume building it is easier when all the properties are already state-owned and the highway is not too curvy
As far as I know, they still need to acquire the last 6 miles in the Vegas area. The other 212 miles of ROW is negotiated. This means they can start building the vast majority of it as soon as the Record of Decision is published if they have funding.
@@mrxman581 and 15-25 mph on the way home, lol.
@@mrxman581 this route will mostly go 186 mph. only some sections are restricted by RFA
Great video, a few corrections - train speed has increased to 200mph with the change of the trainsets to the Velaro Novo EMU's.
Per the EIS, between Victor Valley and Rancho Cucamonga, max speed will be 140mph and will run on 45 minute headways with a 35 minute travel time. Page 18 on the EIS.
It is assumed they'll run 46 trips per day. Page 51 of the EIS. Up from 23 trains a day.
I see where the disparity is. I was going by the 40mins including Hesperia stop - 2mins for the stop rather than the through time. I also got the average speed wrong, and now I'm wondering where I got 95mph. I was wondering why MY travel time was so close to the train's projected time, thinking it averaged 95mph. I averaged about 70mph. Do you have a solid source that shows it will actually be 200mph in service? I see it in plenty of search results, but I've found media reports to be extremely unreliable on these issues. I'm going to be dedicating half a day to driving out to Vegas and back for my next video, so I'd like to get the facts as correct as I can. Personally I'm a little baffled how they're going to get the train to full speed and still take 2h20mins to get there.
I’ve only been seeing 180mph and a 2 hour 15 minute travel time between RC and LV, including on their website. Can you share the EIS or whichever document it says train speeds will now be 200mph?
@@ChrisJones-gx7fc ruclips.net/video/zik44EnmOhI/видео.html Brightline West themselves are stating 200mph. I believe it is also noted in the change order for Brightline West they will operate at 200mph with the Novo trainset
@@bbundridge Sorry about the delay getting back. As usual, YT is not notifying me on all comments. Yeah, he says 90 mins and 200mph in reference to Apple Valley-Las Vegas. That's 7 mins faster than the EIR timetables, so its hard to tell if that's a new goal or he's just generalizing. Still difficult to see where they're at top speed(180 or 200) for any significant portion and still taking 90 mins. I'll definitely mention it in the Apple Valley - Las Vegas video, though. Thanks for the heads up.
I definitely know what you mean about believing Brightline will finish and open this...if they break ground. They don't have a record so far of leaving work half done, but they're very willing to let things sit as un-funded, nebulously future plans until and unless somebody funds them (e.g. the delayed Boca and Aventura stations on the original segment between Miami and West Palm, or the Cocoa station on the new Orlando extension. We'll see what comes after the environmental approvals, if they actually have the money or not.
The point about CAHSR came up at one of the recent CAHSR meetings, and the fact that they have to compete with Brightline West for funding while they'd prefer to partner was raised by one of the project leaders. I think ultimately both trains are good plans, the issue is straight up not enough money to go around for improved rail (whether you call Brightline West HSR or something else, it's still a dang fast train).
And this route has existed as a project for almost 20 years. They know more or less what they need to do to run a new passenger line here and roughly what it will cost. Conceivably it gets passed on to the next owner. This has been our experience with it so far, which is why I'm a little skeptical until they actually start it. But, as time goes on, the plan wont need to change much, and the motivation to build it will increase, so seems like something that will definitely happen EVENTUALLY.
@@LucidStew I'd love to see Brightline in the business of "finishing plans other people did most of the lifting to identify and get approved," maybe move on to something like the Texas Central next, but...they need to break ground here before anything like that makes it out of the world of foamer fantasies.
@@rwdavidoff Texas central isn’t happening as long as the GOP hates passenger rail
@@mentalillness1574 Eh. If it was privately funded, I could see the state GOP turning around on it like Florida's GOP state government did on rail once they swapped Obama-era HSR for privately-constructed medium speed private rail with Brightline. All of a sudden it's not the evil "government socialism," it's good American corporations doing what California can't, proving why Texas is better or whatever. But like...that assumes it's funded, one way or another, Brightline or other.
@@mentalillness1574 well they just won the lawsuit a week after they gave up on the project. It was weird
Federal infrastructure money is likely to vanish as part of a congressional budget deal. Costs on the Florida Miami-Orlando route grew appreciably. The passenger project was perhaps in part an excuse to rebuild an aging freight rail line and restore it to dual tracks (with new single track for now, expandable to double track on the new line from the coast to Orlando airport).
Good points. It does have to be remember that the Republicans control the House for the time being. Although, Republicans in the 21st century seem to enjoy spending quite a bit and infrastructure is a thing that is ok for them to indulge in.
Well well well. Look at the news now
@@LucidStewFlorida has been turning down substantial federal infrastructure funding. Not to mention Medicaid and food for hungry children.
Brightline has said they may make the section leaving Cajon pass to Vegas 200mph.
Brightline and metrolink have now agreed to run hourly so that every train will have a connection at RC. That also means it will integrate better with the statewide transit network.
I expect Brightline will run as fast as they can wherever they can give the EMUs allow quick acceleration and deceleration. I also expect them to push FRA track geometry to the limit and may get wavers to allow places with 6-8in of superevlation and 5-7in of unbalanced superevlation along with 4-4.5% grades.
The issue with the whole Metrolink connection is that its pretty slow to Los Angeles. Rancho to Union Station is a 75 minute ride even though its only about 40 miles as the crow flies, and of course you also have to get to Union. Probably turns into a 4 hour+ , 3 seat+ trip. It's not terrible, though. I could still see people doing that.
Here's to hoping Brightline will be forthcoming with information beyond the EIRs. After driving it, I'm very interested to see how it plays out. You can see the challenges. You can see the areas where they could run fast. How it all combines into their time tables is the confusing part to me because it seems like that could do much better than 2h20m.
@@LucidStew It is slow to downtown LA but that at least gives them a transit connection to the wider region.
I expect they'll have made the timetable conservative and if they can deliver better than they'll change it. Easier to under promise and over deliver than get sued when you can't meet what was planned.
@@LucidStew I remember in 2013ish Metrolink used to run an express commuter service from Cucamonga station to Union Station, but it's discontinued now. Iirc, there were only 2-3 stops made between Rancho and DTLA on that service and there were only a few of these trains per day. But it was an amazing service that took only 45 minutes and a lot of LA County sheriffs and USC students commuting to LA took advantage of this.
It makes sense they could bring back that service, because if you've ever taken Metrolink from Rancho to LA, you may have noticed the majority of commuter passengers get on from just a handful of stations (Claremont, Covina).
And a 45-50 minute connection makes this whole thing work way better imo, compared to the standard 60-70min service that's running now.
@@mrxman581 It depends where you're headed once you get there. It's less than 3 miles to the south end of The Strip proper. They're planning to have shuttles for various casinos and places like Allegiant.
I'll tell you right now, after driving home from there a couple of different times and it taking more than 5 hours, I'd take this train instead if the price were reasonable. That's with me being able to get to Vegas in 3 hours driving on a good day, and it taking me roughly 40 minutes to get to the Rancho station.
@@mrxman581 I've hit a snow storm at Mountain Pass before in the middle of the day, so it's not always at night. 😄 But, yeah, some of my worst experiences were at night, too.
Great video thanks for keeping us up-to-date . Far as the environmental studies go . How can the train be any noisier than the road with all that traffic ? This is why nothing ever gets done too many studies. people want to get your hands and everybody’s pockets.
Train in the median causes expansion of the freeway outward or train rises above freeway noise mitigation.
Union Pacific's City of Los Angeles took about 6 hours to go from LAUPT to Las Vegas. Speed could exceed 100 mph once past Dagget where U. P. left trackage rights on AT&SF. While Brightline is expected to be several hours faster, I question the cost .
Even more interesting to me than the budget is that they plan to lay all the track in one year. If they can do that, or even come close, that would speed up the possibility of other city pairs immensely. I'm really interested to see how this works out over the next 5 years.
@@mrxman581 Yes, but their ability to do so is a huge part in getting the route done quickly.
Hopefully I will be working on the design of this project once my firm announced the win !
That sounds amazing 🤩
THIS IS AN AWESOME VIDEO!!!!
Thanks. More coming. Apple Valley to Las Vegas next. Couple weeks probably.
This is an interesting video. It amazes me that a church.....a church....is causing the speed of a train to be decreased. Also, are you stating that this railway will be a one-track railway for the entire route? If so, that makes no sense to me. While your attitude with Brightline and CAHSR are the same (you'll "believe it when I see it"), California has actually started construction. Brightline has not. Additionally, neither California nor the Feds have funded CAHSR the way it should, and that's partly why construction is slow, and costs keep going up. I also have the same attitude with Brightline in that I'll believe it as I see it, given this railway has been TALKED about for years.
The church also houses a school. It's not that the train MUST go
@@LucidStew Yes. Cali has at least $95 billion more worth to build but it is also more complicated and much longer than Brightline's. I get that people are googly-eyed about Brightline, but it is important to recognize how much more complex California's railway has been up to this point.
@@TheRailwayDrone I briefly compare the two projects in the video. My general conclusion on the subject(not in the video) is that its not necessarily a good thing that CAHSR was intentionally designed as an expensive system. Had it been designed slightly more modestly, it could still be adequately fast, but much more likely to be completed due to lower cost.
This seems like the ultimate vaporware.
I would say its currently closer to getting started than it ever has been, but really the first shovel needs to hit the ground, then I'll believe it.
So, to clarify, the I15 climb up to Cajon Pass is not too steep for a train?
5-6% grade in a couple of spots. HSR trains have a very high power to weight ratio and can handle that. They won't be going very fast, though. Stopping in the downhill portion if something goes wrong is the greater concern.
@@LucidStew Thanks for the reply Stew!
I'm beginning to have very serious reservations about the feasibility of Brightline West's Las Vegas project because of the narrowness of the Right-of-Way at the southern end of the route. From an examination of the I-15 median along the southern section of the route (between Victorville and Rancho Cucamonga) using Google Earth, it appears that median width is about thirty feet. North of Barstow it appears to be about a hundred feet. It seems foolish to invest ten billion dollars on a project that will have only a single track. It can never be doubled at a reasonable cost. Moreover there's not enough width to have passing tracks without shifting the highway lanes laterally on one side of I-15. Still another problem with using the median is the undesirability of having high speed trains racing past motorists on I-15 at very close distances. Imagine having a train approaching you at 180-200 miles an hour at the same time you're going toward the train at 70 miles an hour. The wind displacement in front of the train will be tremendous, and possibly dangerous, even if there is a barrier wall. Union Pacific's main line goes down the middle of MoPac Expressway here in Austin, the state capital, in a median that is only sixty feet wide, and it can be startling when you're going 70 MPH and the oncoming freight train is going 70 MPH. If anyone doubts me, drive along I-10 in LA and face an oncoming Metrolink commuter train in the narrow median of the highway....and the train is probably going only 60 MPH. Also, the experience of riding a high speed train with nothing to look at but huge numbers of cars and trucks coming and going will prove to be tedious and boring. There are many reasons why Brightline West will not be successful, and the ones I've cited are just a few of them. They would be better off building a double track line along BNSF and UP on their own 200 feet wide private right-of-way. It would take longer, but cost less in the long run. Your videos are excellent.
Yeah, most of the way between Rancho and Apple Valley there is no room for more than a single track, but they are not planning to double track much of that part. Basically in and out of the stations on the ends, which will be on the side of the freeway, not the median. Hesperia will be the exception, but the plan is to redo that intersection completely to make room. The EIR indicates they'll need an additional 5 miles or so of passing siding to expand from 45 minute headways to 22.5 minute. I'm pretty sure this will be in the pass where the right of way splits. Good point on the various effects of the train on the freeway traffic. No sure what they're planning there, whether it is to sink or elevate, or higher barriers. The train will also not be super fast on this portion. (~85mph average), although the median in the desert is not particularly wide as it applies to the point either as the next video will show. My only experience with this is the Metro Gold Line in the 210 median, which didn't seem to be an issue, but that's light rail and not particularly fast. I've driven that stretch of the 10 a million times, but don't recall ever seeing a train on those tracks. Maybe I just don't remember it.
@@LucidStewI think Metrolink runs commuter trains in the I-10 median between El Monte and Cal State campus every 45 minutes in each direction. I haven't been to LA in twenty years, so they might have changed the schedules. I'm very skeptical of Brightline West's ability to generate sufficient revenue for viability without direct service to and from LA Union Station. The west side and north side of LA are the affluent parts of the city, and the areas whose residents are most likely to travel to Vegas. If they have to drive to RC to board the high speed trains, they're going to be much less likely to use the service, especially if they live in the San Fernando Valley. You're doing an outstanding job on all of your high speed videos. Continue the really good exploratory coverage of both CHSR and Brightline West. And consider covering the rapidly growing Texas Triangle and the imminent failure of Texas Central. We need high speed rail badly, especially on the I-35 corridor between Dallas/Ft. Worth and Austin/San Antonio, where highway congestion continues to get worse. The growth in the corridor is incredible.
@@michaeljones7927 Roughly 10 million people live within 50 miles of the Rancho station. I don't think inconvenience for west siders is all that important in the face of that. I think they'll do great on weekends, holidays, and when there's a Raiders game. Question is if that's enough. They're not going to compete so much with packing 5 people into a car, but I don't think that's what they're going for and there are plenty of upper middle class people in other parts of socal. I do agree it would be more useful if they could get a single seat to Union Station. That looks daunting from the Rancho station because that Metrolink route is pretty funky. Could happen in 50 years when CAHSR gets to Palmdale... I like HSR as a topic and have followed Texas Central somewhat. I do think thats the project that makes the most sense out of any of them. It's probably something I'll get to, but I need to get back up to speed on it. I once argued with someone from Texas about it and I tried to tell them CAHSR would have been a lot easier 40 years ago, and Texas in 40 years is about where California is now in terms of space, sprawl, and infrastructure.
@@mrxman581 Sorry but don't thiink so. Rather see a Bakersfield to Burbank Tejon Pass Route instead. The Tehachapi and Pacheco Pass routes are way too expensive. Besides even if the Pacheco Pass is built it will be long before the Tehachapis and then you have the problem of tunnels through the San Gabes. Forget Palmdale.
@@mrxman581I agree there is plenty of money in the federal and state budgets to spend more on rail transit. However, the $66 Billion in FRA funds will be spread out over five or more years . The NEC and Amtrak will get the bulk of it. There is plenty of competition for the remainder around the country.
Think of the Chcago hub and all of the cities that want to be connected faster. Atlanta wants to connect better to Charlotte, Nashville, Savannah and Dallas. Ohio,Tennessee, Virginia and Florida all want better passenger rail service. Besides the Midwest and Southeast I am sure the Mountain Zone (Arizona, Utah and Colorado) and the Pacific Northwest all have made grant requests.
My favorite competitor for funds is Brightline West. I wish CAHSR could get more federal funding but I do not see it to be to be significantly enough. You are right when you say the state because that is where probably atleast 75% of the money will have to come from unless the Feds double and triple down. PS -- I always enjoy your comments a lot.
HSR is considered 150 MPH or faster. France's TGV generally travels at 186 MPH or 300 KPH.
250 kph = 155 mph
if its an old upgraded track 200 km/h is already high speed rail, If it is a new track HSR is a minimum of 250kmh can be called HSR.
The section between Rancho and Victor Valley is not High-Speed Rail defined as 124 mph (200 kph) by the UIC.
They have not released specifics, but the "speed limit" along various parts of the route is 140mph. However, it would be new track, not upgraded.
very well produced video. thr
15 Acres Industrial Land Vacant available on Morro Road in Apple Valley CA closed to Bullet train Station .
They already have one going to Miami to Orlando for awhile now it's Orlando to Tampa.Seems to be going good except the train hits a lot of cars in Miami because they are on the tracks.
Not just Miami, though I think there's been just one wrecked car between West Palm Beach and Orlando so far. Yesterday, I watched an elderly driver barely make it under a descending gate, then hesitate on the track and barely make it under the backside gate.
So far, the Miami-West Palm Beach leg has resulted in about 100 fatalities, the worst such situation in the country.
Very interesting, we have been curious on its development. 45 minutes is about par when driving from HD to SB on a good day, commuters or vegas traffic? 90min plus though.
This train might be a great step in reducing congestion in cajon pass.
Yeah, as is apparent in the video traffic was pretty good that day. That was one thing I found interesting when I looked into it a little deeper. It's kind of two systems in one. Hesperia-Rancho is meant mainly for commuters. Ridership projections are almost always overblown, but they anticipate about 1,500 people using this to commute on a given work day. Rancho-Vegas is destination traffic. They anticipate the biggest impact on weekends and holidays. They have total Rancho-Vegas demand exceeding capacity on weekends/holidays and that's 23 trips each direction, 2/3 of the trains carrying 400 people, 1/3 carrying 800.
I remember one time coming home(n. rialto) from work in Montclair on new years eve weekend at about 5pm. Took the 15 without even thinking about it. It was stop and go all the way back to Baseline. And that was back before most of the development up in north Fontana. Not just Cajon Pass though, I've also been stuck in 5 mph traffic between state line and Baker before, which was surreal because there is NOTHING out there. Can you imagine sitting there watching a 150mph train zoom by? It would make you think twice next time you went out there.
It's kind of funny how the government is being picky about keeping noise levels down around Sacred Heart. That church is literally wedged between the 15 Freeway in the back, and sits mayybbe 20ft off of Route 66 in the front (Foothill Blvd). It's possibly in the loudest spot in the entire city and I don't think a train going over 80MPH added to the mix would make an ounce of difference lol.
I misspoke in that section of the video. The speed is not necessarily DUE to sound and vibration impacts, but rather the speed limit for that section is indicated in sound and vibration impact report.
Fantastic video lots of information on the high speed rail bright line
I don’t know how common this is in the U.S. but in Europe when there is construction on a freeway, very often one or even two lanes get temporarily shifted over the median to the side with traffic running in the other direction. Once railway tracks are in the median, such a thing will no longer be possible.
It is regular practice here to build freeways in stages and keep traffic going during construction. I would agree that train tracks in the median will complicate this, but I would also say that a lot of southern California freeway ROWs are either at or near capacity and probably wont be expanded beyond their present boundaries.
@@LucidStew How different the laws and regulations are between countries. Roads, railways, canals are planned by the government in Germany and I’d say most Europe and as long as they follow all procedures correctly (incl. weighing the environmental impact) and, if contested, courts confirm this, then it’s going to be build. There are no pre-existing rights, every expansion has to go through this process.
But once approved, property rights of the land needed are all taken care by eminent domain. Of course when it comes to tearing down residential housing, you need good reasons that there was no other way to route the traffic.
But then I’d say 90% of all freeway construction in Germany is maintenance of the road surface, of bridges, of tunnels, or smaller things like signage, water runoff management, or remodelling an exit.
@@aphextwin5712 Its very similar here. We are generally dealing with 4 levels of government: Federal, State, County, Municipal. Any project has processes it has to go through with the various governments and levels of governments affected and involved. Many times all levels are involved in funding in some way.
California in particular is laden with freeways. A lot of these were started in the 1950s with an established initial right of way. In many cases those ROWs filled and were expanded. Most urban and suburban areas have expanded to directly abut the freeway ROWs.
This makes it extremely expensive and nearly politically impossible to expand them further. Some of these still have room to expanding the existing freeway within the existing ROW, but a lot of freeways already fill them.
It is EXTREMELY difficult to build a new freeway in California, and I would say impossible in any area that is already developed.
We have eminent domain as well. It is used sometimes. However, individual property rights in the U.S. are pretty strong and the litigation that can result can delay large projects or increase their cost. This has happened with CAHSR while trying to acquire land in the Central Valley. It has also managed to trip up the Texas Central line between Houston and Dallas, Texas.
@@LucidStew Expanding roads has become more difficult in Germany as well but more on a societal level. More stringent environmental regulations, more general environmental protests at cutting for example through a forest and overall concern that more roads lead to more traffic and thus greenhouse gas emissions as well as other pollution (noise, air).
Coming back to railways, over the last couple of decades, new high speed lines have frequently been situated largely adjacent to freeways where possible because this minimises dividing wildlife habitats further and minimises the number of people exposed to increased noise pollution. Since medians are very rarely wider than a few meters (4 m is the standard that can be reduced to 2.5 m in cramped conditions), nothing is really put there. Having the high speed line on one side also makes it possible to smoothen out curves of the freeway that are too tight for HSR.
We just keep one or two lanes open and keep it moving. If all lanes need to be closed then construction is only at night and traffic is diverted to local roads.
Yes it is billed as "high speed" but that is not the overall goal I don't think. The bigger issue is will it help to lessen car traffic in LA area and on 15 freeway which is way overloaded already.
Brightline is predicting they will pull quite a bit of traffic off the road. The thing is, the faster it goes the more people will use it. Hopefully they will build it and we can see how it turns out.
@@mrxman581 Thirty years ago, Portland, Oregon figured that a light rail tunnel paralleling a surface expressway would be the passenger equivalent of adding a lane in each direction to the expressway, with the added benefit of reducing traffic on side streets and need for parking lots. I doubt that Brightline will make much a dent in the heavy traffic.
People need to temper their expectations. HSR fans will expect this train to haul ass through the entire line . Even the Shinkansen has slow speed sections as it approaches near Tokyo and other major terminal cities. On the Tohoku Shinkansen, it reaches max speed between Omiya and Sendai, then from there to Morioka.
I think as long as its moving faster than the freeway, they'll be ok. People seeing cars passing the train for any significant portion would hurt perception. I'm fairly confident though that it will be quite fast between Baker, CA and the Las Vegas area.
I'm not a fan of interim 1 track builds for roundtrip trains. Why doesn't Brightline West privately fund 2-tracks between Las Vegas and Victor Valley and lobby hard with Metrolink to receive federal funding for a 53-mile, 2-track HSR extension in the High Desert highway median between Victor Valley & Palmdale? The High Desert route is already Environmentally-Cleared.
Since it would not have account for the steep slope of I-15 Freeway median, speeds on the High Desert median viaduct could be 185-200 mph for faster trip times. Brightline could lease track time for express trains while Metrolink runs commuter trains. That would better leverage the State of California's HSR & Regional Rail plans. It would also make a stronger ally in California HSR Authority, who must convince the Feds to lead-fund the Palmdale-Burbank-LA HSR segment.
Palmdale doesn't really make any sense unless CAHSR is there, same as terminating outside Apple Valley didn't make any sense. At least with Rancho they can get it to the other side of the mountains and not wait 20 years+.
Tbe transit options on the cali side though oof. I checked how long it wluld tske from Cucamonga to san diego and its 6 hours wtf
Yeah, regionally you're doomed. Vast majority will probably drive to the station. Someone within a half hour of LA Union Station one way or the other might find the whole experience reasonable if they indeed manage to properly align the schedule with Metrolink at the 8th St. station. (roughly 4 hours, which would be all-driving equivalent on a good day)
@@mrxman581 Nope, just to get there. The other end is a little too variable to account for. Realistically you could be at a few places in 5 mins. Others 30-40. I've never had an issue with leaving the car in the parking garage the entire time. You have the monorail, lots of people walk the Strip, you can take the odd shuttle or taxi if you need to go further.
@@mrxman581 It would be competitive time-wise. Maybe 20 minutes slower each way. For that you get to avoid all the inconveniences of flying. Harry Reid is only 2 miles closer to anything. I'm not seeing how you're coming to the conclusion that there's that big a difference.
Those intermediate station locations are bizarre. Has brightline confirmed with certainty thar they're sticking with the original plans for the Hesperia and Apple Valley stations? I feel they would make much more sense in different locations. I also think Barstow deserves a stop.
The Victor Valley station is mainly because that's along the Desert Xpress route, which they purchased. Also, there was a lot of land there for their facilities and presumably also development. They're building Hesperia at the request of San Bernardino County. That will act as a commuter station and is meant more for traffic between Rancho and Hesperia. The way the route moves through Barstow proper, you won't see one there. Because of the freeway, it's going to be single tracked the whole way through and the line has to elevate OVER the UP lines and Main Street. Just guessing, but I would think if they ever put a station up there, it would be in Yermo. I can't see it happening with only 30,000 people up there though. It's not exactly the hotbed of development activity either. You have to remember Brightline is a land acquisition and development company first and a railroad second.
I don't really feel as excited about Brightline West anymore. It sounds like a great fast train and, as someone from Perth, W.A., trains in the centre medians of highways is an aesthetic I'm into. However, that's all it really sounds like, fast rail. It sounds like it's only technically "high-speed" because it travels on a mile-long section of track where the train can theoretically go 150 mph.
I guess I also have reservations about Brightline as a private company. Call me a Commie, but I don't exactly trust corporations to run public services.
The biggest thing for me is figuring out how its going to go 180MPH and still take 2h20m to go 218 miles. Personally, I'm hoping the time gets adjusted downward when they start testing it and figuring out what will physically work. Just from messing with the math or the time tables and the max speed, it seems like they should be able to do 1h45m without much trouble if they're running around 175mph in the portions that look like they can support it.
Running in the freeway ROW has been an issue people have brought up. We do have that here with commuter rail running
I really, really don't get the single track in the median idea, you're setting yourself up with such a massive limitation on future expansion man...
Space and cost.
@Lucid Stew of course of course, I get it especially in the Cajon pass, but for example there is no need to follow the tight curves of the highway out in the Mojave desert yk...
@@michelangelobuonarroti4958 I think the main benefit there was avoiding land acquisition costs. The original Desert Xpress plan didn't utilize the median. From Barstow to Vegas outskirts most of that is supposed to be double tracked eventually.
@Lucid Stew oh okay thankss, I guess these are just the compromises you have to make for rail in the US
How much will a ticket cost?
They haven't said, but the distance is similar to Brightline's Miami-Orlando route and those tickets start at $79 roundtrip.
Great video! Please do continue it till vegas
I was going to do it this weekend, but forgot it was Easter. Likely 2-3 weeks on that one.
That business of going up the Cajon Pass in the middle of that road don't look to hot, as you mentioned about broadening the median. I glanced at the doc. and thought it didn't appear fully worked out (Ooops, found the drawings now.) and at the rate those people charge one can understand why. I stopped to write this when we cam to what looks like 4 or 5%. Not the best for a downbound train trying to stop.
Not sure what the exact plan is there. They might be to able just barely smooth the climb in and out to 4.5%. If they're planning on running a 5% grade, that's pretty interesting. Based on the distance and projected timetables I was thinking they'll limit themselves to 70-80mph through the pass.
@@LucidStewWould that be the one before Baker? (Was wanting especially to look at Mojave R. and a low-lying Barstow station, but didn't realize it was past till you got to Baker.) I did look at some of the drawings from the Desert Express which is pretty polished FEIS. They keep the vertical bending all the time, and always at slight variance to the road, to smooth it. But I really couldn't tell how many feet apart, just that it seems to vary more than not. With the one starting in Anaheim I'm doing long inclined planes, so it ends up with tunnels , but won't "spill the soup". Almost no time for a diner.
@@brucehain In Cajon Pass there are two major climbing sections and then the middle is relatively level comparatively, so you kind of climb into and then out of it. From experience driving, the one on the north end that brings you into the desert is a little steeper. The portion from Baker north to Hallorin Summit isn't quite as bad. The only other grade I can think of that's an issue like Cajon Pass, from driving experience, is south from the Ivanpah power plant up to Mountain Pass. There are usually quite a few cars and trucks struggling there. I'm getting 5.5% for that from Google's topo map.
@@LucidStew Didn't see this till just now, have spent two days and nights on this obsession with Anaheim-Vegas. I have two ways to get from S. of Rancho C. to Victorville, and can't decide, so am drawing them both! I had six V'ville-Barstow and think will select one, with tunnel, but is the lowest. Will probably stop soon but truly am unable to overrule the compulsion, it's very time consuming in Google Earth though so what gets done... I generally use four Circle Tool circles for a curve under 5000' radius, but the only option after that is eight circles. I believe I drew my largest circle yet this morning - 75000'. That's what one has to do to find out if it works or not. Trying to incorporate a large curve is more complicated than just smacking down tangents. I have learned to sort of sketch, not accurately. Am getting more acquainted with your home state, also AZ, and think if I can get a version that's not embarrassing I might start an email conv. with you by your leave at some point. I was there when I was 17 in '73 - hopped trains going both ways part of the way. partial You make the most intelligent train videos and I like it that you think about routing, curves and grades - all that matters! - most people don't and the railroads and engineers at the public agencies know that. What I've got is several things half-done in place of grinding my axe with the MTA in NY, which is ALSO a hopeless cause. We'll see. I'm very critical of the Hudson Tunnel, it's been 27 years and billions spent. Maybe there's a way to get 'em in court if can show what they're doing is bad enough. These hopeless causes keep me interested and alert, but rather compulsive. Be funny of if Brightline West started building and then stopped. It takes a lot to build a modern railroad in that terrain - but instead of doing it in most cases they're charging for it and giving us something else. My Hudson Tunnel article's a little outdated. They changed the grade config. in 'the box" under Hudson Yards - so it dips then turns up up again before reversing a third time and emerging into the muddy river bottom, very close to the the shipping channel overhead. I don't think anything like that's ever been tried. It's and international disgrace, but that's the part that's not in my spiel at the following: www.rail-nyc-access.com/rail-city-access (If you've already seen the page 'scuse it.)
@@brucehain I feel much the same when working on one of my city pair videos. There is something comforting about being consumed by the minutia of it. If you're unaware of it already, the I-15 express lanes could be a major hinderance between Anaheim and the pass. I discuss it a little in my August Stew's News.
I only glanced(mostly the pictures) at the Hudson Tunnel, but I'm looking forward to digging into it after I have my next video done. This is a fascinating subject given the expense and its newsworthiness of late.
HSR (High Speed Railways) on LGVs (High Speed Rails) should NEVER have any Single Tracked sections.
Single track on HSR is a recipe for Disasters...
ps. If they build it with double track throughout, the stations that are off to the side of the freeways, would have a set of tracks diverge a few km before the station, trainsets can decelerate to stop, then accelerate back to speed to re-join.
By having these spurs off and of enable 'through trains' to continue at full speed as not every train will stop at every station.
The best example of this is the New LGV - Paris to Boudreaux.
Slab track on springs... dampen - eliminate any vibrations and or noise concerns.
The HSTs can actually operate at 300kph without any concerns for noise. Fact is without the slab track springs etc.. they pass so quickly, you can live Adjacent to the railways and Not notice the trains passing your home.
There are only two stations between the end points, Hesperia and Apple Valley. The schedule in the EIR indicates that all trains will stop at Apple Valley. Hesperia is planned with a single through track, since it is in the freeway median and space will be tight. Many trains will be through trains at this station as it is only meant to facilitate commuters going to and from Rancho Cucamonga. Trains will stop at Hesperia for passengers only in the morning and evening, but all north and southbound trains are scheduled to arrive simultaneously. I think this would likely not synchronize exactly in practice, so one train will likely have to slow or pause at that station for the other on a fairly regular basis.
The biggest sound and vibration concern is that since the train will be in the freeway median nearly the whole way, the freeway will need to be widened in places to facilitate the tracks. The FREEWAY will then be pushed closer to sound and vibration receptors as a result. The other is that the freeways have required sound abatement in place, such as sound walls. There are places were the train is planned to be elevated above those measures.
In regards to the various speed limits in the EIR, those are found in the sound and vibration assessment. However, sound and vibration is only one factor in why they will limit speeds in certain places. I likely overemphasized sound and vibration in the equation in this presentation.
@@LucidStew I once lived less than 100m from the 91... it was constant Road noise 24x7. I obviously moved after the initial six months due to lack of sleep.
I have lived less than 50m from a HSR with mixed traffic. There was 20 HST per hour each way, 45+ tph of intercity and local services, and a few freight trains per hour. It was the point where two rails joined four rails and expanded to 12 rails. The only time ever notice any of the trains was when a heavy freight train went through the area at 0200... and it was because it blew it's horn when it was raining or foggy.
The trains pass so quickly and have a maximum axel load of 17t with new models having aluminium bodies with sound proofing on the trainsets. In the 70s and 80s, HSTs were Noisy and Noisy... with lots of vibrations. A 400m long EMU travelling at 400kph will have less noise and vibrations than a single honda civic on a freeway.
I can still remember when the time came each day for the 18wheelers to enter the SoCal / LA basin each night.
But to your other points about service patterns and frequencies... What is planned and projected will be thrown out the window within the first year as the service pattern (station stopping or not) will be determined by passengers.
These stations are similar to Ebbsfleet · Ashford in UK and Haute-Picardie · Gare d'Arras · Gare de Lille-Europe · Gare de Calais-Fréthun in France.
At the moment due to new immigration systems, Eurostars are London · Lille · Gare de Nord (Paris) only (to/from UK).
Stations get added... again using Eurostar as an example as it is a point to point service lacking multi branching to make the Spider Map routes... Rotterdam · AMS · Amsterdam Centrel were added.
I do have an anticipation because of the PPI nature of the railway infrastructure... the initial operator will be Brightline but there will be others who operate services on the tracks paying the standard access fees.
This would enable HST from say San Diego to go slow to San Bernadino (area) to join and onwards to LV.
The infrastructure for now is BLine... but in a few years, as it will be very popular due to it's cherry picked nature of highly profitable destinations... could be like LGV Nord (france) having six plus different TOC (train operating companies) having trainsets on the rails each hour or at least each day.
When this occurs, BLine will either have to share the rails with competitors or will have to bundle their PPI with US, CA, NV governments into a IPO as a stand alone infrastructure (rails and stations) Ltd - company. This is how the rails in most of the developed world operate.
I expect it to be very popular and highly profitable. When it demonstrates this = the others will want their share to maximise the rails. With a minimum fully double tracked LGV can have 20+ tph, a train every three minutes. Paris · Lyon, UK... having to build HS2 because there is insufficient space adjacent to the four plus rails of the UK WCML (west coast main line) for dedicated HSR / LGV services from central London to beyond the commuter belt towns.
There is no HSR line, or fast rail line as this is, in the world that does single track operations. I for one didn't realize that some 70km of the line at the LA end will be single track. This is going to place severe limitations on the frequency and constrain reliability of the service even with passing loops. It is really quite crazy to seriously consider ST ops for what will be a high volume line. BLW will then later incur higher construction and reengineering costs for track duplication than just builing it as dual track from the outset.
@@yappofloyd1905 CA HSR is not just an A to B train / railway... SF to LA... NO.
It will be an A to Z (SF to SD) with numerous intermediary stations. Not every train will stop at every station. It is the difference between Milk Run Service (stopping at every station), Selective Stops, and A to Z express.
Such a service pattern would be the 00, 15, 30, 45 are Express Non stop SD, LA, SF.
the 05, 35 stops at B, D, G.
the 10, 40 stops at C, F
the 20, 50 stops at B, C, D, E, F, G.
This is a standard 12tph frequency diagram.
When these and other in-fill stations are added... and the frequency is increased to 20tph... a train every 3 minutes.
18tph to 24tph is standard frequency patterns for EurAsian HST Railways.
There is ZERO land available in the SD, LA basin, and SF Bay Region to build another 10 to 20 million higher density housing units. When these HSTs are in operation, the lower priced 'INLAND' New Cities will be long over due Over Flow housing. Yes entire new cities can be constructed where the only thing in the area is a HST Railway.
Additionally these Inland Urban Conurbations will be able to have Regional Trains (up to 250kph), Local inner Urban Trains (up to 200kph), and Metro Trains in the cities to have a spider map network centred on the new HST Station... oh and Trams of course.
The new cities can ditch the single family home on a hectare of land! Think Central Paris, London, Berlin, Shanghai, ... too many to list with integrated retail, entertainments, and housing ... all in walking or a few stops on trams or metro trains.
A tram or metro train to HST station, with a train every x minutes (clock faced timings) and can go into SF or LA etc for everything from entertainment to work and be back... flying past all the cars sitting in the snarl crawl of the freeways (slowways).
You are absolutely correct... single track on the SD, LA, SF is a very stupid idea as it is 1 dangerous and 2... far more costly LATER to add the second rail - even when/IF the infrastructure was created at the time on initial build.
Brightline is also doing single track on the Orlando to Titusville area... It is a Significantly SLOWER train service but will quickly find within months of opening, it is lacking capacity.
The London LizPurp Line was predicted to reach capacity after 5, 7 years...
It is already having additional services added because maxed out.
Stop in Apple Valley don't make sense. I could see Victorville, or even Hesperia since they are near the freeway and more city infrastructure. Apple Valley is a bit of a drive away from the city or shops, malls, right off the freeway.
It has to do with purchasing the concept from Desert Xpress, the environmental impact statement and record of decision, both of which were complete for Apple Valley-Vegas, and the ability to acquire enough land for the station, various maintenance facilities, and future development around the station.
@@LucidStew Why two stops in Hesperia and Apple Valley? Isn't that redundant?
@@barbeej12 The stop in Hesperia was added at the request of San Bernardino County to facilitate people commuting down the hill.
The dedication to spending all this money on gas for a video
It’s one thing to be a negative Nancy, but quite a different thing to be a wishy washy Willy. The latter is no help to anyone. The proposed route is dangerously risky because I15 has NO alternative parallel corridor for interstate commerce to use in case of a catastrophe. Except in metropolitan areas the interstate system is vulnerable and needs redundancy to insure some level of contingency for reliable and predictable interstate transportation. Gambling on Brightline understudied proposal risks the vital transportation corridor between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. The Congress should enact legislation to construct a redundant interstate highway system, mandated to incorporate high speed rail through routes of inhabited land. This way engineers can design sensible integration of rail and vehicular roadways gaining the advantage of speed of construction, uninterrupted existing interstate & rail roadways, and thereby control costs resulting from straight through construction. Creative Calvin helps solve problems!😤
It's possible to get around I-15, but its certainly not convenient. It does bring up the subject of transportation redundancy and how running passenger rail in the interstate ROW works counter to that. Imagine if the NEC ran in the I-95 ROW through Philadelphia... Thing thing about the interstate highway system is that its almost done. I don't think you're going to get much more fresh right of way aside from I-69 or ring roads.
so crazy that americans overtake on the right. Such a dangerous move.
Thanks for the detailed video ;) Really enjoyed the details
I'm glad someone picked up on the sampling of insane driving behavior captured. I got cut off twice despite moving at an extremely steady and cautious clip for the video. I also love the part in Victorville where the rig driver is in the fast lane. You get used to the craziness in socal after a while. There's a part after the Hesperia station where a rig right next to me on my right drifts about half a tire's worth into my lane from the right somewhat out of control due to wind and the poor road conditions. I didn't move over at all. I was just watching to see if they'd keep going. Par for the course.
May Harley-Davidson of Victorville Rest in Peace?
So this is NOT an High speed line
200mph isnt high speed?
@@LucidStew nope, 200khm is the current speed of regular non high-speed intercity in europe using regular mainlines in France, Germany, Belgium, Swiss, Netherlands … high speed trains on high speed line are above 250 on the older ones, and goes to 320kmh on new ones … China operated trains above those speed, but they came back to 320 as the time and economical cost of maintenance of the over-used infrastructure makes it really unprofitable above 330 ….
@@MrElbarto75 200mph is ~320kph
@@LucidStew indeed, but here its gonna be 200kmh not 200mph. This is not a high speed train : just like brightline florida, that’s just a regular train, but trains sucks so hard in the us that they can sell it like a marvel … this project is a scam, and the cajun pass is probably the best example for it … high speed train on a single railway line in the center of a speedway snaking in the mountains … dude …
@@LucidStew yep, but in this case the train is never gonna get over 125mph ( 200kmh ) : the decided integration of the project in the middle of a highway, and across the cajun pass instead of going under is probably gonna build it faster and cheaper, but in the end this is not an high speed train, but just an intercity.
Another pipe dream. this train has been tlaked about since the late 90's and plans come and go. and I don;t think this will be made either.
I'm somewhat of the same mind, but they are fairly committed, having acquired all the necessary agreements and the station sites. Of course, they still need to secure the funding for construction and that's the big question mark.
@@LucidStew It would be nice, But I'm just not seeing it. Plus how are people gonna travel on a commuter train with all kinds of luggage n
@@davezobeljr9025 They're planning a single check-in service where you check your bags at the origin station and they're delivered to your room on the other end. You can also check bags otherwise. They have a common large item storage area in each car as well as overhead storage. It's not dissimilar from flying.
@@davezobeljr9025Currently on Brightline FL you can carry up to 28" suitcases on the train with you. There's storage at the end of the car as well as overhead. You an even bring your bicycle on the train. They also have a checked luggage service. This is not worth worrying about in the slightest.
The point is , if you dont read the ground existing you are not in their check book ,yet tho its a bit of a hype like a new rifle caliber coming on the market , yet again out side of the median would be the best because of work crews , man hours cut to because of logistics if crews , materials and production put it out of the interstate , traffic crashes , people distracted by bondage of cell phones , how are crews going to get to and from the equipment to build the grade , and materials used , , drive pilings , concrete trucks , pumptrucks it aint going to fly man , let alone travel to and from job area s at the greed of ones gobbeling rent , food , gas prices out there alone will set your agenda off course , you need eziament out side median, i worked on union pacific rail widing in nebraska up line 3rd track 150 miles of rail grade, i operated excavator right beside number onetrack live rail trains coming at you , SAFETY FIRST , I BEEN IN DIRT WORK , CRANES BRIDGES , PIPE , DRAIN , GRADING FOR OVER 45 YEARS , 8 DOLLAR GAS PER GALLON DAILY AND FOOD , day and night shifts , brightline is hypte up , china driven biden fed to get votes , go spend your money lefty loosey
Man American freeway driving just looks miserable with that lack of lane etiquette lol.
That's mostly California. I lived in Missouri for a year and it was a more pleasant driving experience. Although, I will say that people with Nevada plates on I-15 are pretty crazy as well. You get used it. No-gos everywhere else, like passing rigs on the right, are par for the course.
Do you seriously think that....
1) UP is going to simply had over sections of their 9th street right-of-way to Brightline? (good luck)
2) CalTrans is going to sign off on tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars of rebuilding bridges, widening freeway right-of-way. and realignment of bridges and exits for Brightline to build a for-profit railroad? That neighbors are all going to be willing to sell or give away land along these highways to widen them for a train track? or the state is willing to use its power of eminent domain for the benifit of a private for-profit company? (Hint: California passed laws against that in the aftermath of the US Supreme Court's Khalo decision)
3) in the three to four miles you identify, it is possible for a HSR line to elevate a railroad parallel running at Interstate level (on viaducts built into the elevating slopes) to safely a height to safely cross over 4 lanes of freeway (bottom of bridgework must be minimum of 13'-6, 15'+ is national standard), then descend to running down the median at highway grade? All at reasonable railroad grades and curves? (did you pass HS math?)
4) That the highway grades through Cajon pass, which include miles long segments that reach 6% grades are not going to affect railroad operations. (hint: no one in his right mind operates a railroad for any lengthy distance on 6% grades)
1) They don't have to. It's on a viaduct at that point. It also may simply be next to the ROW. It's 8th St., btw.
2) Yes. It is not clear that the freeway ROW needs to be expanded at any point. The implication in EIR is that shoulders will be narrowed.
3) 15-20 feet over a mile is a tiny grade. There are many places where this train would not be high speed. I've actually taken a fair amount of advanced math. Please don't insult people in my comments like you have here. I won't hesitate to block you. This is a singular warning. It won't happen twice(both the warning and the insults)
4) The track doesn't have to be at the exact grade of the freeway. One of the places in the pass in question will be a lower grade than the freeway because the track will be elevated to get over emergency CHP crossovers. The train also will likely not travel very quickly through the pass.
@@LucidStew LOL
1) You do understand that a Viaduct requires supporting pillars.....that are going to have to be set into the ground, not hung from magical skyhooks, don't you? That means they need rights to use the land.
2) Do you imagine that CalTrans is going to magically wave off any need for shoulders on an Interstate? They built them there originally for safety reasons. You think that because Brightline asks, they will be willing to forgo them? That's ludicrous.
3) Do you imagine that a viaduct strong enough to support a railroad is a mere 5' thick? LOL Go out and take a look at existing viaduct construction on CA HSR.. Extended viaducts are considerably thicker.....like 10-15' or more depending on design. That means the rails will need to rise at least 30' in a mile, complete two linked curves over the highway, and descend 30' in the final mile. When easing in and out of the grades is accounted for (no, you can't just tilt the track) the peak grades will be1% or greater, which is significant to railroad operations.
4) "The track doesn't have to be at the exact grade of the freeway." ROTFLMAO It does if it is going to travel down the median.....unless you expect it to travel at GREATER grades. You know, like when you say "it will be elevated to get over emergency CHP crossovers." HSR can't operate on 6% grades. Conventional railroads that hope to safely operate and generate a profit choose not to operate on grades over about 2%. Apparently, you are just ignoring the physics of the whole issue.
@@ilikehardplay Respectfully disagree with you regarding grades. The grades won't exceed 3-4% which German HSR trains already easily handle.
This project needs to be funded by the greedy oil companies that are charging $5.00 a gallon for gas in California.
This project needs to be funded by all the billionaires who live in California. If each of them would donate a billion as an investment, the could recoup their investment over advertising on the trains video feeds, and train cars wrapped in advertising.
We have to think outside the box to get these projects funded. Once operational Americans can then become addicted to high speed rail and the demand for it will be instilled and generational.
Not sure how you force people to make investments. We already tax gas quite heavily directly and through cap and trade(part of the reason its $5/gl). The legislature would be the one you want to talk to about where that money goes.
Although the crisis in Europe does not raise domestic oil production costs, it has raised crude oil prices, and oil companies stand to profit on the difference. This comes at a time when oil companies were already reporting record-high profit levels. Last year, four fossil fuel multinational giants-ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron, and BP-earned more than $75 billion in a single year in profits. Crude oil prices are now up 50 percent higher than their average daily price last year.
And these profits are not going into research and development projects that sustain our planet. Forcing them to invest in high speed rail expansion could be leverage by government agencies setting up Rail Funds that are directly funded by the profits of of Big Oil, and if they don’t invest, then they are not allowed to bring their oil to market.
@@gottawatch1932 Sure. I think you have a potential source of revenue there, but it would ultimately amount to a gas tax and that's going to be up to the legislature unless there is a proposition which specifically taxes oil and gas production in the state and funnels those revenues specifically to HSR. In the second part of my CAHSR video I forward an increase in the state gas tax as the only viable means of total funding I could think of without waiting more than 30 years.
Oh boy, more freeways getting torn up to shoehorn rail in the right of way., and motorists have to endure the construction/lane shifts/narrow shoulders/bumps. Total BS.
I've been hearing this perspective a lot and it seems the jury is still very far out in terms of this being a good idea in practice. On the bright side, I-15 through this area has been under near constant construction for the last 10 years, so it won't be out of the ordinary at least? :D I'm trying to stay positive, but that's also shellshock talking from decades of ceaseless road construction in the areas I've lived.
yeah because one more lane will totally fix I-15!
Is their any plans for bright line to lay tracks from Los Angeles to Northern California via the tejon passing really interested in bright line west expanding through out all of California
Los Angeles and San Bernardino Counties are planning a high speed connection between BLW and California High Speed Rail between Victorville and Palmdale. Conceivably, if CAHSR reaches Palmdale from the north, that would allow high speed trains to run from northern California to Las Vegas.
How fast will bright line travel through cajon pass
No official word, but I've made a semi-educated guess that it will be around 75mph.