Fellow Wingnut here! 😂 funnily enough, my church also just did a sermon about women in ministry. My pastor got an email from someone asking what our church's stance is on women being pastors and why we don't have any female pastors or elders, so he decided to do a sermon about it. My husband and I just started going to this church in October of last year, so it was really awesome to see them tackle such a tough controversial issue and land on it pretty much exactly as Mike did (which we both agree with, and have spent the past few years listening to Mike's videos on the subject).
And your closing statement and I say it with respect. If you are questioning your wife being a pastor because of what you read in scripture than she shouldn't be. You don't need to pray harder and let the spirit show you something. He already is through his word, you just possibly might not like it because of the situation you are in. The bible is direct and firm on the roles of pastors which many men as well do not have qualifications to pastors either. so it is not only just women but some men also should not be pastors of any kind. We need to quit using "secondary issue" as an excuse to allow or overlook things.
Hey brother, we have to touch on something. You saying "I'm not a woman, so the command isn't for me" is a cop out. The bible tells us to hold our brothers and sisters in christ accountable. But even more importantly, your wife is literally one body with you in which you are the head of. If you tell your hand to do something, it will do it. If your wife is sinning, you need to tell her to stop. It is in your authority of your house to do so. I think being the worship leader is a perfect place for women in the church, but she is NOT a pastor. This attitude you portrayed is cowardly. You need to be a bold leader in the truth. Pray on it.
Bingo, I had the same thought. This makes me think of Adam and Eve. Adam was held responsible for Eve's sin. The bible places the blame on Adam as the one responsible for the fall of mankind. Eve was the one who had been deceived, while Adam had not been deceived, but choose to sin when he took the fruit from her. He chose his wife over God. God bless everyone.
Right on, but I would go a little further. A woman can worship, but to be the leader implies the exercise of authority. I don’t think that is a position she can hold.
@@matthewdyer2926 Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
@@8784-l3b You are probably too far gone to engage, but I'll try. There were no "pastors" under the old covenant; "pastor" is a position specific to the Church established by Christ in the New Covenant age. Second, you're still glaringly wrong. Paul explicitly forbids women in Church leadership. Third, the reason all egalitarian heretics immediately appeal to Deborah is because she is the exception to the rule. Have you heard the phrase _"the exception proves the rule"?_ Deborah was ordained by God as a _judgement_ on the idolatrous and effeminate Israelite men who had abdicated their duty of headship. She was the exception that proves the rule, and the rule is patriarchy. _"My people-infants are their oppressors, _*_and women rule over them._*_ O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths."_ This recycled egalitarian nonsense gets so old...
“Boiiz,” it’s time to be men (you look old enough). If your church is in error on women in leadership you should have some conversations about it. I’m not sure women serving as worship pastors is completely wrong but if your church has female elders that should be addressed. And you don’t have to be a woman or a pastor to care about sound doctrine that’s for everyone.
Scripture is glaringly patriarchal through and through, because God established the patriarchy. It has never been a matter of whether there will be a patriarchy, but whether the patriarchs will be good men, or evil men. The reality of patriarchy was never questioned until the present century. Be shaped by Scripture, not by your culture.
@@redwojak5182 Protestants were certainly patriarchal until this century. Eastern “Orthodoxy” has numerous facets that render it heretical. I’ll stick to my Bible.
Mike Winger online ministry has changed my life. He has taught me how to think Biblically about everything, and thanks to him and his teachings my heart and mind has been changed on a number of issues. Thanks to him, and some other online ministries, I have gone from being somewhat liberal Christian to being a conservative one. ( I'm not speaking in political terms). However, when it comes to Mike's Women in Ministry series, I have to say this: Mike has not given an objective presentation of both sides. His intention at the start of this project might have been to be objective and to give a comprehensive and thorough presentation of both egalitarian and complementarian side, but unfortunately he has failed at this task. I wish Mike had done this whole series differently. He should have included and had on his program actual authors and/or scholars from both sides present their views. I recommend watching Sean McDowell's dialogue with Denny Burk and Ron Pierce as an example of how this should have been done. Mike, despite what he said in the first episode of his Women in Ministry series that he wanted to be egalitarian and warning us of dangers of not being able to be objective and impartial, has always been and stayed complementarian and has not been able to be objective and impartial himself. He should've called this series Complementarian View on Women in Ministry. There is obviously nothing wrong with being complementarian and having a twenty or more hour long series on complementarianism and defense of it, but what you should not do is present it the way Mike did; his interpretation being an objective, impartial, and his interpretation being the only one possible and as the only correct interpretation of the Bible on this subject.
Mike Winger totally presented this issue with biblical truth. Also he has said, " study the scriptures for yourself." I think he did an awesome job at presenting the egalitarian views, sometimes to the point of redundancy. He didn't need to have other authors on his videos to defend their point of view. God's word and God's point of view is all that matters.
@@josephS4223USA Of course God's view is the only one that matters. What is your point? God shares His will with us through His Word, the Bible, however as we all know we don't have the mind of God, nor is our understanding or the interpretation of God's message perfect/infallible. That's why we have Biblical scholars, theologians and Christian apologists. Btw, many egalitarian scholars have come forward in criticism of Mike's presentation of egalitarian scholarship and views. And many of them invited him to have a dialog. Mike has not accepted any invitation of that kind so far. Lastly, what point were you trying to make by saying " Also he has said, 'study the Scriptures for yourself. ' " What, or where in my comment did I indicate that I don't. If anything the first few remarks re. the impact of Mike's ministry on me would indicate that that's exactly what I took from it.
@@mimimimz6719 I never in any way said that you didn't read the scripture. In all of Mike's videos he says that he is presenting the scriptures and his understanding of the scriptures. He says in every one of his videos that he may be wrong, but this is how he sees it. I have actually studied under female pastors, but I do believe that. as Mike says he is, I am a soft complementarian. I do believe that bible allows women to teach and be deacons but not to be and elder or lead pastor. Just my opinion on what I read and understand.
@@josephS4223USA you wrote: ...but not to be and elder or lead pastor. Just my opinion on what I read and understand. Doesn't work because of Deborah. The Judge was the primary pastor/shepherd of God's people during that time period. They had the authority to execute a man for his sin. I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah. All of this is valid. Read time: 12 minutes
Women being a worship pastor is not what Mike Winger was referencing. He was referencing an actual teaching elder role. I'm pretty sure Mike is fine with a female worship pastor but probably doesn't think the title should be "worship pastor" but rather "worship leader" because it would make more sense theologically.
But it does say in 1 Timothy 3:12 referring to deacons. "Deacons must have only one wife and be good leaders of their children and their own families." with that if women are deacons wouldn't that promote homosexuality since it says must have only one wife.
And what are the qualifications for 'father'? For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers... -excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV -words of Paul If one supports the qualifications of elder, as put forward by Paul, one MUST also accept that the title/position of 'father' is valid and proper in Christianity. Since this is also one of Paul's teachings. But the title of 'father' was expressly forbidden by Jesus. And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven. -excerpt Matthew 23 -words of Jesus A full post on this is available. Paul regarded his position as 'father' as valid and significant.
So he said his wife is the worship pastor. Why does this position have to be called a pastor at all? Women can be given so many different roles in the church body, why does she need to be given a title of pastor? If a woman teaches the children on Sunday mornings or leads a women's bible study, is she now a children's ministry pastor or women's bible study pastor?
What part of Mike's video did you disagree with or what piece of scripture did he not talk about that supports the egalitarian view? I'm a woman who believes the complimentarian view, but if complomentarianism is wrong I would like to have my mind changed so I better know what God wants for my life.
@@shadowmelon6081 Complementarianism The priesthood of the New Covenant is a 2-tiered priesthood based on birthright. That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are. The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can they teach men. So why is that? The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make any sense. A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower, at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier. A Christian that is in the lower tier (woman) is not allowed to complain of the tier she was placed in. That would be sin, because God made her a woman by His choice. She should accept and also embrace her position in the lower tier. A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women. A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but they aren't, but they are, when did that start? But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. -excerpt 1 Timothy 2 It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb. So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the spiritually superior level of a Christian man.
@@shadowmelon6081 shadowmelon You need to know 2 things. #1) Understand Deborah well (I have a short free postable essay.) #2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. (That is another free essay.) Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions. Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. -excerpt Genesis 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created. -excerpt Genesis 5
Paul taught this about women. Jesus used women along with men. Jesus taught not to lift yourself above anyone. No such things as pastor, priest, etc. we have only one teacher leave the church system.
Jesus also had 11 apostles (prior to Paul and Barnabas) that were sent out to plant churches. Also, as Paul writes in his letters to Timothy, there are rules about elders, leaders, and pastors of Churches. There is a hierarchy in the Church just as any organization needs a leadership structure. There are also roles that both men and women need to follow. As it states in the household, for example, that the man is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the Church. Men are to lead and sacrificially love their wives, while wives are to submit to their husbands leadership of the family.
@@prvtcaboose Jesus says do not Lord over each other as the Gentiles do. If you want to be first be last and serve. Read John chapter 4 (woman at the well). No need for churches, worship in spirit and truth. Jesus says as from the beginning they are to be joined as “ONE”. No two individuals creating hierarchy. But One as one flesh. The head is God.
@@TheShutterbug1968 you should use all scripture, not just the ones you like. If the two becoming one do not have roles, then why are Jesus and the Church going to be married... Does that mean that Jesus is not the head of the church? Is the church "equal" with Christ? I believe the whole of scripture would say that Jesus is the head and the one that is the head. Ephesians 5:22-30 HCSB [22] Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, [23] for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. [24] Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives are to submit to their husbands in everything. [25] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her [26] to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the word. [27] He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless. [28] In the same way, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no one ever hates his own flesh but provides and cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, [30] since we are members of His body. The church submits to Christ as the wife submits to the husband. Now, there is, and always has been a hierarchy in the Church. This is because there must be people who work to run the Church and resolve internal disputes. This started with apostles and continued to their chosen pastors, elders, and leaders. All of that is in scripture. It even gives an outline of how to choose people for those positions. I'm not sure what you are getting at with the women at the well. Jesus reveals to her that He is the Messiah and the living water... So how does that relate to the Church? The idea you refer to is in Matthew: Matthew 20:24-28 HCSB [24] When the 10 disciples heard this, they became indignant with the two brothers. [25] But Jesus called them over and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and the men of high position exercise power over them. [26] It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, [27] and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; [28] just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life - a ransom for many.” This is not the same as having no hierarchy. On the contrary, it presupposes a hierarchy by saying that the last will be first and the first will be last. All it is saying is that those who serve will be the greatest as Christ came, served, and gave the most. And He is therefore the King. To have no one in charge of a Church means that it wouldn't last long. If Paul and the apostles had no authority, then how can there even be a Church (since Jesus charged them with building the Church up). In fact, the only time that Jesus even mentions His church is when he charges the disciples with authority and then tells them to go out and make disciples of the nations. Matthew 16:17-19 HCSB [17] And Jesus responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven. [18] And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.” Matthew 28:18-20 HCSB [18] Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [19] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” So, are they not to lead the Church? When you don't use all scripture as context, you run into problems like this.
Fellow Wingnut here! 😂 funnily enough, my church also just did a sermon about women in ministry. My pastor got an email from someone asking what our church's stance is on women being pastors and why we don't have any female pastors or elders, so he decided to do a sermon about it.
My husband and I just started going to this church in October of last year, so it was really awesome to see them tackle such a tough controversial issue and land on it pretty much exactly as Mike did (which we both agree with, and have spent the past few years listening to Mike's videos on the subject).
Be careful of the teachings of Paul, on pastors/shepherds,
and other subjects.
@@8784-l3b the teaching of Paul are God-breathed scripture.
@@8784-l3b Paul isn't the problem. The problem is those who misinterpret him.
And your closing statement and I say it with respect. If you are questioning your wife being a pastor because of what you read in scripture than she shouldn't be. You don't need to pray harder and let the spirit show you something. He already is through his word, you just possibly might not like it because of the situation you are in. The bible is direct and firm on the roles of pastors which many men as well do not have qualifications to pastors either. so it is not only just women but some men also should not be pastors of any kind. We need to quit using "secondary issue" as an excuse to allow or overlook things.
Hey brother, we have to touch on something. You saying "I'm not a woman, so the command isn't for me" is a cop out. The bible tells us to hold our brothers and sisters in christ accountable. But even more importantly, your wife is literally one body with you in which you are the head of. If you tell your hand to do something, it will do it. If your wife is sinning, you need to tell her to stop. It is in your authority of your house to do so. I think being the worship leader is a perfect place for women in the church, but she is NOT a pastor. This attitude you portrayed is cowardly. You need to be a bold leader in the truth. Pray on it.
Bingo, I had the same thought. This makes me think of Adam and Eve. Adam was held responsible for Eve's sin. The bible places the blame on Adam as the one responsible for the fall of mankind. Eve was the one who had been deceived, while Adam had not been deceived, but choose to sin when he took the fruit from her. He chose his wife over God. God bless everyone.
Right on, but I would go a little further. A woman can worship, but to be the leader implies the exercise of authority. I don’t think that is a position she can hold.
@@matthewdyer2926
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
lif
The Judges were pastors/shepherds according to God.
That included Deborah.
@@8784-l3b You are probably too far gone to engage, but I'll try.
There were no "pastors" under the old covenant; "pastor" is a position specific to the Church established by Christ in the New Covenant age.
Second, you're still glaringly wrong. Paul explicitly forbids women in Church leadership.
Third, the reason all egalitarian heretics immediately appeal to Deborah is because she is the exception to the rule. Have you heard the phrase _"the exception proves the rule"?_ Deborah was ordained by God as a _judgement_ on the idolatrous and effeminate Israelite men who had abdicated their duty of headship. She was the exception that proves the rule, and the rule is patriarchy.
_"My people-infants are their oppressors, _*_and women rule over them._*_ O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths."_
This recycled egalitarian nonsense gets so old...
“Boiiz,” it’s time to be men (you look old enough). If your church is in error on women in leadership you should have some conversations about it. I’m not sure women serving as worship pastors is completely wrong but if your church has female elders that should be addressed. And you don’t have to be a woman or a pastor to care about sound doctrine that’s for everyone.
Scripture is glaringly patriarchal through and through, because God established the patriarchy. It has never been a matter of whether there will be a patriarchy, but whether the patriarchs will be good men, or evil men.
The reality of patriarchy was never questioned until the present century. Be shaped by Scripture, not by your culture.
Orthodoxy is patriarchal, not protestants
@@redwojak5182 Protestants were certainly patriarchal until this century. Eastern “Orthodoxy” has numerous facets that render it heretical. I’ll stick to my Bible.
@@matthewdyer2926 😂 lol, we gave you the bible and you picked out a few books you liked.
Lots of guts to call us heretical, pure american arrogance.
Mike Winger online ministry has changed my life. He has taught me how to think Biblically about everything, and thanks to him and his teachings my heart and mind has been changed on a number of issues. Thanks to him, and some other online ministries, I have gone from being somewhat liberal Christian to being a conservative one. ( I'm not speaking in political terms). However, when it comes to Mike's Women in Ministry series, I have to say this: Mike has not given an objective presentation of both sides. His intention at the start of this project might have been to be objective and to give a comprehensive and thorough presentation of both egalitarian and complementarian side, but unfortunately he has failed at this task. I wish Mike had done this whole series differently. He should have included and had on his program actual authors and/or scholars from both sides present their views. I recommend watching Sean McDowell's dialogue with Denny Burk and Ron Pierce as an example of how this should have been done. Mike, despite what he said in the first episode of his Women in Ministry series that he wanted to be egalitarian and warning us of dangers of not being able to be objective and impartial, has always been and stayed complementarian and has not been able to be objective and impartial himself. He should've called this series Complementarian View on Women in Ministry. There is obviously nothing wrong with being complementarian and having a twenty or more hour long series on complementarianism and defense of it, but what you should not do is present it the way Mike did; his interpretation being an objective, impartial, and his interpretation being the only one possible and as the only correct interpretation of the Bible on this subject.
Mike Winger totally presented this issue with biblical truth. Also he has said, " study the scriptures for yourself." I think he did an awesome job at presenting the egalitarian views, sometimes to the point of redundancy. He didn't need to have other authors on his videos to defend their point of view. God's word and God's point of view is all that matters.
@@josephS4223USA
Of course God's view is the only one that matters. What is your point?
God shares His will with us through His Word, the Bible, however as we all know we don't have the mind of God, nor is our understanding or the interpretation of God's message perfect/infallible. That's why we have Biblical scholars, theologians and Christian apologists.
Btw, many egalitarian scholars have come forward in criticism of Mike's presentation of egalitarian scholarship and views. And many of them invited him to have a dialog. Mike has not accepted any invitation of that kind so far.
Lastly, what point were you trying to make by saying " Also he has said, 'study the Scriptures for yourself. ' " What, or where in my comment did I indicate that I don't. If anything the first few remarks re. the impact of Mike's ministry on me would indicate that that's exactly what I took from it.
@@mimimimz6719 I never in any way said that you didn't read the scripture. In all of Mike's videos he says that he is presenting the scriptures and his understanding of the scriptures. He says in every one of his videos that he may be wrong, but this is how he sees it. I have actually studied under female pastors, but I do believe that. as Mike says he is, I am a soft complementarian. I do believe that bible allows women to teach and be deacons but not to be and elder or lead pastor. Just my opinion on what I read and understand.
@@josephS4223USA
you wrote:
...but not to be and elder or lead pastor. Just my opinion on what I read and understand.
Doesn't work because of Deborah. The Judge was the
primary pastor/shepherd of God's people during that time
period. They had the authority to execute a man for his sin.
I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah. All of this is valid.
Read time: 12 minutes
@@8784-l3b under the advice and supervision of the Levites
Women being a worship pastor is not what Mike Winger was referencing. He was referencing an actual teaching elder role. I'm pretty sure Mike is fine with a female worship pastor but probably doesn't think the title should be "worship pastor" but rather "worship leader" because it would make more sense theologically.
NO!!! Why??? because the Bible says so!!!
this is about creation, illusdtration, order and role, not feminism and equality and also about submission to gods purpose to you and obedience
But it does say in 1 Timothy 3:12 referring to deacons. "Deacons must have only one wife and be good leaders of their children and their own families." with that if women are deacons wouldn't that promote homosexuality since it says must have only one wife.
ruclips.net/user/liveU6qqT9jv-ic?si=A4nKeyG4ggXaIrxR
Watched what you were referring to but he does not go to verse 12. He stops at 11@@thechristianboiiz
And what are the qualifications for 'father'?
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers...
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV
-words of Paul
If one supports the qualifications of elder, as put forward by Paul, one
MUST also accept that the title/position of 'father' is valid and proper in
Christianity. Since this is also one of Paul's teachings.
But the title of 'father' was expressly forbidden by Jesus.
And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
-excerpt Matthew 23
-words of Jesus
A full post on this is available. Paul regarded his position
as 'father' as valid and significant.
So he said his wife is the worship pastor. Why does this position have to be called a pastor at all? Women can be given so many different roles in the church body, why does she need to be given a title of pastor? If a woman teaches the children on Sunday mornings or leads a women's bible study, is she now a children's ministry pastor or women's bible study pastor?
pastor and shepherd are the same word. The Judges are described
as pastors/shepherds. So Deborah, Judges 4 and 5.
I am a big fan of Mike Winger but disagree with him on this. I am an egalitarian and agree with Craig Keener on his view of women in ministry.
What part of Mike's video did you disagree with or what piece of scripture did he not talk about that supports the egalitarian view? I'm a woman who believes the complimentarian view, but if complomentarianism is wrong I would like to have my mind changed so I better know what God wants for my life.
@@shadowmelon6081
Complementarianism
The priesthood of the New Covenant is a 2-tiered priesthood
based on birthright.
That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than
Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are.
The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding
certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can
they teach men. So why is that?
The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant
is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in
leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the
lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited
from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make
any sense.
A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower,
at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines
their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier.
A Christian that is in the lower tier (woman) is not allowed to
complain of the tier she was placed in. That would be sin, because
God made her a woman by His choice. She should accept and also
embrace her position in the lower tier.
A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women.
A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be
a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but
they aren't, but they are, when did that start?
But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer.
-excerpt 1 Timothy 2
It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we
have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders
are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability
that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This
inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman
in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb.
So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because
an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not
sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the
spiritually superior level of a Christian man.
@@shadowmelon6081
shadowmelon
You need to know 2 things.
#1) Understand Deborah well (I have a short free postable essay.)
#2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher.
(That is another free essay.)
Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
-excerpt Genesis 1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.
-excerpt Genesis 5
It's so simple. The Bible says no, straight up. Stop trying to conform to society
Paul taught this about women. Jesus used women along with men. Jesus taught not to lift yourself above anyone. No such things as pastor, priest, etc. we have only one teacher leave the church system.
Jesus also had 11 apostles (prior to Paul and Barnabas) that were sent out to plant churches. Also, as Paul writes in his letters to Timothy, there are rules about elders, leaders, and pastors of Churches. There is a hierarchy in the Church just as any organization needs a leadership structure. There are also roles that both men and women need to follow.
As it states in the household, for example, that the man is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the Church. Men are to lead and sacrificially love their wives, while wives are to submit to their husbands leadership of the family.
@@prvtcaboose Jesus says do not Lord over each other as the Gentiles do. If you want to be first be last and serve. Read John chapter 4 (woman at the well). No need for churches, worship in spirit and truth. Jesus says as from the beginning they are to be joined as “ONE”. No two individuals creating hierarchy. But One as one flesh. The head is God.
@@TheShutterbug1968 you should use all scripture, not just the ones you like. If the two becoming one do not have roles, then why are Jesus and the Church going to be married... Does that mean that Jesus is not the head of the church? Is the church "equal" with Christ? I believe the whole of scripture would say that Jesus is the head and the one that is the head.
Ephesians 5:22-30 HCSB
[22] Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, [23] for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. [24] Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives are to submit to their husbands in everything. [25] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her [26] to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the word. [27] He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless. [28] In the same way, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no one ever hates his own flesh but provides and cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, [30] since we are members of His body.
The church submits to Christ as the wife submits to the husband.
Now, there is, and always has been a hierarchy in the Church. This is because there must be people who work to run the Church and resolve internal disputes. This started with apostles and continued to their chosen pastors, elders, and leaders. All of that is in scripture. It even gives an outline of how to choose people for those positions.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the women at the well. Jesus reveals to her that He is the Messiah and the living water... So how does that relate to the Church?
The idea you refer to is in Matthew:
Matthew 20:24-28 HCSB
[24] When the 10 disciples heard this, they became indignant with the two brothers. [25] But Jesus called them over and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and the men of high position exercise power over them. [26] It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, [27] and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; [28] just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life - a ransom for many.”
This is not the same as having no hierarchy. On the contrary, it presupposes a hierarchy by saying that the last will be first and the first will be last. All it is saying is that those who serve will be the greatest as Christ came, served, and gave the most. And He is therefore the King. To have no one in charge of a Church means that it wouldn't last long. If Paul and the apostles had no authority, then how can there even be a Church (since Jesus charged them with building the Church up).
In fact, the only time that Jesus even mentions His church is when he charges the disciples with authority and then tells them to go out and make disciples of the nations.
Matthew 16:17-19 HCSB
[17] And Jesus responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven. [18] And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 28:18-20 HCSB
[18] Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [19] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
So, are they not to lead the Church? When you don't use all scripture as context, you run into problems like this.
And just to be clear, are you claiming that anything outside the gospels should be discounted because it is not Jesus directly speaking?
@@prvtcaboose Don't assume and put words in my mouth please.