The Worst Smash Bros. Mechanic...
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- Опубликовано: 11 мар 2024
- The legendary Vars III put out a video tha tI saw that I REALLY wanted to talk about: "Touch of Death" Characters - The Worst Designed Mechanic In Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. As a certified Kazuya disliker, I felt like it was only appropriate to watch this with my chat and also give my input on this mechanic in Smash Ultimate as a competitive player.
Original video by @VarsIII:
• "Touch of Death" Chara...
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🕹 Games: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, Guilty Gear Strive, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Street Fighter V, FGC, Anime Fighters, Chess, Speedrunning, Dragon Ball FighterZ
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on the Nintendo Switch brings together everyone’s favorite Nintendo characters such as Mario (Super Mario Bros.), Link (The Legend of Zelda), Samus (Metroid), and Pikachu (Pokemon) in one of the most popular fighting games ever made! The series is further set apart by including a selection of 3rd party video game characters from different franchises such as Persona’s Joker, Street Fighter’s Ryu, Final Fantasy VII’s Cloud and Sephiroth, and Sega’s Sonic The Hedgehog. Most recently the game has been updated to Version 13.0 where Square Enix’s Sora from Kingdom Hearts has been added as DLC to the game!
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Игры
I'm beginning to think every time Marss reacts to my videos he's just reliving past traumas and being like "They called me a madman..."
I love "Princess Kazuya"
That’s my favorite Ghibli movie
@@verybluevanssame
@@verybluevanshahahaha
something that’s not mentioned in the video is how TODs function differently in other games. In games like DBFZ, every character has a tod. However, it’s balanced by the situational awareness AND resource management. most of these tods need the corner, probably a specific counterhit starter, some sort of executional barrier, and almost always you need to cash out all your resources. in ggst, only a few characters can tod, but they also need a specific starter, the corner, and full meter, plus they have to consider if the opponent can burst. the problem with tods and even regular high damage characters in smash is that most of the characters that can output like this don’t need nearly as much of this awareness. there’s no meter to save so you can spend it on a ko, there’s no reward for counterhitting somebody instead of hitting them normally or shield poking them, you can combo after throws without spending meter, there’s no scaling to make it harder as the combo gets longer. In theory, the opponent can DI, but in ultimate combo DI is so weak that it almost never matters, and can even be option selected. In trad fighters, there’s a lot of risk to taking these moments to get big damage, but in smash there’s virtually none
absolutely agree, getting into more fighting games thats been a really fun aspect of it
if the opponent saved up max resources and you have nothing you probably deserve to die, but smash kazuya never has to do that
in smash it has getting gimped, you managed stage control badly / had it taken from you and got punished
when the combos are consistently 50/50-albe by DI then thats a cool way to make disadvantage work that I love but dealing with fully flowcharted top level 0 to deaths sounds miserable
ToD chars suck because they genuinely just aren't fun to (optimally) play against with majority of the cast. The game is campy enough and they can make it 3x worse.
True. The only thing I find fun is developing ToD combos in low tiers that usually only work from the opponent panicking 😂
That's exactly it, exactly why I get upset when I lose. Why am I being forced to camp out Kazuya for 7 literal minutes just to win a single round, I want to actually use the tools I practiced with the character I've spent hours of practice on.
The game is just better with friends casualy. Goes for most fighting games
@@Phillip-cy4mk also fun af when you have a healthy competitive attitude with the homies. I’ve recorded a lot of audio from our sessions and played it back to them cause the trash talk/rage was just too mf funny 😂😂
Touch of Death literally goes against some of the core designs of Smash so it’s kinda weird that they are a thing at all. Sakurai doesn’t want Smash to be about long combos you can’t escape. Yet we got Kazuya.
Touch of death is definitely not a mechanic, just something the players find. I think the least offensive of the ToD characters is Ice Climbers. Mainly because their ToD is the hardest to learn (at least in my opinion).
Agree, you are expected to interact with mechanics in a video game, touch of death is the exact opposite of interaction.
Plus Nana's AI is vulnerable to being exploited, introducing actual unique counterplay as opposed to camping
Also I’m aware Peach and Bayo aren’t ToD characters but they have similar tools
What makes them bearable is that they are a lot tamer outside of their ToD combos. If they had easier access to that stuff like Kazuya or Luigi, they’d be on the same list of hated ToD characters
I kinda get what he means by mechanic. These combos are built into the character due to either the lack of knock back allowing for a continuation move or the canceling of knock back like Kazuya’s electric.
Vars' Smash content is very underrated and really well made so it's sick to see Marss reacting to more off it
its definitely demoralizing to encounter a touch of death player. any mistake could lead to loss
The Pokémon mystery dungeon music in the beginning 😍😍
I think it was a turndownforwalt video or something similar describing Zain's domination in melee:
Platform fighters begin with what characters/players can win neutral the most into who can get the most out of a single neutral win. Obviously it's a combination of the two, but in both melee and ultimate the latter matters a lot more.
Marss managed to explain my issue with the thumbnail within 15 seconds of the video starting. Nicely done!
The crazy thing is that at the end of smash 4, I felt like dlc killed the game. In ult, there are so many base-game characters that are awful to watch and play against that I can’t say it’s dlc’s fault. This game is just kinda bad
Marss commentary on these videos is really good. Keep it up!
incineroar shouldve been an honorable mention. Playing against my friend who mains him is so rage inducing when revenge + alolan whip kills you at 30% from one missed interaction
I fought a Kazuya who was able to consistently pull off the tod combo for the most part and genuinely I hadn’t felt more helpless playin this game. I know it’s probably exacerbated by the fact how I was playing Roy, but it really feels like having to walk across a minefield. I don’t know a better way to say it
3:27 well, there was a lot of talk about banning cloud in doubles. it even resulted in the banning of double cloud teams. if you're just talking about singles, then yeah, but overall, cloud doubles bans was a pretty big thing
That’s probably true but nobody plays doubles 😭
@@bosniagaming2708 ...pretty much every one of the top players plays doubles. Doubles just isn't as highly publicized.
@@bosniagaming2708 Doubles was pretty big in Smash 4, on average amassing more entrants than Ult doubles brackets do nowadays. Of course it was always a side event, but it had more time in the spotlight back then. Cloud certainly was ruining the format, and so double Cloud was banned and some tournaments even banned any team with Cloud.
Generally any top player at a tournament would be entering doubles as well, and if I'm not mistaken that's still the case in Ultimate.
The main reason platform fighters are fun, is because of the "neutral-Advantage-Disadvantage" triangle. Optimizing these three aspects in different scenarios by creatively using all of your tools IS the fun.
TOD combos completely removes disadvantage from the triangle, which decimates the core gameplay loop.
I would argue that almost all of the issues players have with characters in smash is because they shift this triangle for the opponent way too far in one direction in a way that makes the game more frustrating than fun (Sonic, Min-Min, Mii Gunner, Samus, Steve, etc.).
If ToD was that game braeking then we would see those characters dominating the pro scene.... but we do not. So is it really that bad?
As a spectator, I checked out after Sephiroth, but I don't think this game is bad or dead. There are games people have played for 10 years+ and are still going strong. Just look at Melee. Some mechanics do take a lot away from the enjoyment tho. I'm glad there is still a lot of support for this game. This is actually the game that made me buy my Switch.
Honestly, that's why I stopped playing Smash. The moment those characters got optimized, it wasn't fun anymore.
Edit: The comment HeavyT12 said is exactly what I'm saying. It's why I'm playing Tekken 8 now, because as I've learned the game I'm seeing where I'm the one making mistakes, and it isn't just broken character alert.
*fun for you. There a still people who enjoy the game
@4546Bean I never said no one can enjoy it, so this is evidently a personal issue I have. I still enjoy plenty of games others write off as bad.
TOD is terrible but sometimes you just get edge guarded by a square vs Acola when you're winning. My least favorite set ending I've EVER witnessed. I'm still bitter lol
Once again the editor is subtly showing his game diversity with the Shenmue music during Marss' commentary. Good work making these RUclips vids so fun
mashing disjoints and unpunishable moves = fundies
Me when idk what im talking about:
If leo were using a touch of death character, i dont think people would be making content on how troublesome the aspect of the game is...
Literally almost every one likes Leo bcs he plays fun characters, if he played ToD characters he wouldn't be even close as popular as he is lmao
14:24 Marss spitting facts for 3 minutes 20 seconds straight
Weighing in on whether "touch of death characters" are a mechanic - a character being a "touch of death" character is an emergent outcome of things like their moveset and movement attributes. Those coded values and frame data which define the moves and movement attributes could fall under the purview of mechanics, but when we're talking about something like the idea of "touch of death" which comes about as the result of the interactions of those mechanics, that's closer to the scope of "dynamics." Dynamics in turn shape aesthetics, which describe the player experience, so when we talk about how the presence of touch-of-death characters influences the way it feels to play the game, we're talking about aesthetics.
Taking Marss' example of tripping, Brawl tripping *is* a mechanic because it's something that the game is directly programmed to do, but then if we talk about how that disincentivizes ground movement, that involves an emergent outcome of several different mechanics of the game, so that's what would be considered a dynamic, and if we then talk about how those incentives change the way it feels to play Brawl versus games without random tripping, then we're talking about aesthetics that are formed by those dynamics. This is at the heart of the MDA model which is used to describe game design at a formal level.
Anyway I know nobody asked but I think that system is interesting so I felt like sharing. Off to actually watch the video now
Just to tack onto that, this (www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf) is a great paper for people interested in these concepts
12:48 It's boring seeing Kazuya lose 5 neutral interactions in a row only to get a 0tD on the 6th. Doesn't feel like he's earned it.
Something funny is bowser jr has a true TOD on all the cast or like 90% but it’s very impractical cuz it’s only on town and city when the platforms are around
Did not expect my comment to pop up in the vid LOL but my point stands! I appreciate when top players like Marss are willing to be transparent about their experience competing in the game
9:27 he wants to be mario so bad
ToD becomes a mechanic when the entire kit of the character is built to enable the combos and if the character would be fundamentally worse in every way
I don't think anyone has a problem with ice climber 0 to deaths because you can not easily replicate it where as anyone can do the base luigi 0 to death
The game will be improved and more enjoyable for everyone if they remove all characters from the game except the super heavy weights. Change my mind.
I could only get the game two years ago, but watched it since launch. I love this game but I really feel like I miss the prime years
Ice climbers isnt really a tod caracter. Most 0 to deaths have a "trick" that you must know to not die. Some are real true combos but you generally have to be cornered to get true 0 to death. Across the stage 0 to deaths are really hard and not that good because you need to fish for them. It's the most counterplayable tod caracter in the game
This is why non-combo characters are the truest smash characters. Play neutral, over and over, and outplay your opponent.
Heavies. Heavies are what this game is really about
The worst smash bros mechanic imo is invincibility. Especially on a move like EWGF
It's not just EWGF, Kazuya has SO MANY moves in his arsenal that give him invincibility for no reason LMAO
And most of them are either hard or next to impossible to react to (starting on frame 8 kind of thing).
Its really sad how much they fucked the game up
It was such a good fun game, then fp2 happened, and instead of fixing the mess they created they fuckin ditched game just like they did with smash 4
I feel the sunken cost fallacy so much. I played kazuya when i got a gc controller. I put like 2 months into kazuya after that. I understand hes cringe as fuck, but i put so much time into him that i feel like im required to play him :(
I know this is crazy but I think this is why this game is so good and unique it’s almost like controlled chaos like people actually compete in Mario kart; I think that’s crazy lol that game might have even more variables and RNG but people compete in it still.
Can't believe Kazuya can even do this to the most strongest and respected character on the whole cast of Smash Ultimate... The magnificient Captain TOAD 😂🎉
Given how it seems Marss is forced to play defensively by a lot of what he's facing recently, I'm kind of wishing he'd play Snake himself some more, or maybe even try to bring back his Megaman.
a video of TODs, and meta knight is not mentioned. Truly balanced
I prefer prince's mishima since kazuya is kazuya's first name.
Damn, he put my thoughts into words near the end there. I stopped watching 99% of smash streams/tourneys after the first few years because shit got boring real fast. When you see the typical hype players like Marss have to change their gameplan to accommodate all these bs characters, the stream gets closed super fast lol
it's sounds like zss just aint it anymore. More and more she's forced to play time out zss...
sounds like it's time to become a joker main with a egregious ez bake secondary. like cloud.... or gnw lol
MySmashCorner walked so Varslll could run ether way I loved his content great video from you to marss thank you 😁
didn't acola play luigi before he picked up kazuya and steve?
The minecraft music in the background is fantastic
Wet hands my beloved
he deleted his subscribe counter, how am ii supposed to know how many gifted subs to drop from my burner?
I can beat the tod characters but at what cost? I play the game for fun and a healthy amount of competitiveness, not to get tod’d.
TOD characters just don’t let you play the game
Smash 6 when sakurai? 😊
Sunk cost fallacy is so real. Early on, I thought Ultimate was so much more fun than Smash 4, but the truth is that going to events for 4 was more fun for me when you account for all the time since release. I didn't quit 4, but I did end up quitting ultimate
Ultimate is alive and well
I'd rather get hit by a ToD than play against a zoner.
You sound like me. But zoners are easier to figure out, when you fight someone that consistently knows how to ToD you’ll understand. The first time I fought someone who could consistently pull of Kazuya’s combo routes genuinely felt like my soul was slowly being ripped out of my body. Literally one mistake was a stock for him no matter how much I did
@@CipherKnighto I'd rather watch a cool clip, than solve a puzzle from the other side of the stage.
@@Melvonathan dude it’s not much of a puzzle. You just need to stop brainlessly rushing in, zoners excel at keeping you out but suck at getting you off of them. Against one touches you literally basically can’t get hit, a single neutral loss means you can take 100 from just a conversion or vaporize altogether. Zoners are nowhere near as problematic as that, at least they are designed properly and have more standout weaknesses.
@@Melvonathan I’d like to add also, your comment and reply kind of made it evident that you haven’t fought someone who knows how to pull off any of these routes with them. I know because I said the exact same thing as you, you aren’t going to get it until you experience it. At least with zoners you can find the satisfaction of actually opening them up. One touches can literally drag all agency from you off of one mistake. You can’t show them too much respect or too little. A simple overextension or read is all they need, and then you have to basically watch a cutscene of you dying with no way of interrupting it for the most part. That’s less fun than being kept away.
@@CipherKnighto You are doing a lot of angry and assuming. I'm just sitting here lmao.
Only Kazuya is a tod character. Everyone else just has good frame data on strong moves.
Ganondorf forever 🗿🗿🗿
That’s just kind of cap- your saying LUIGI is not a TOD character?
@@joelcudjoe3833 What I mean is that Kazuya was designed to be a TOD character, whereas Luigi just sorta happened to become one.
Back throw flip kick lol
I quit Smash because there isn't any point in being the best in a game that has a parent company constantly shutting down it's tournaments. Always played anime fighters though so at least I got that to fall back on for that competitive itch. I dunno why people were happy that Nintendo started to get involved at first, personally I wanna know what they were smoking and where I can get some of that shit cuz it wasn't gonna end in any other way than being given $20 gift cards for grands and a miserable time for spectators and competitors alike.
So while the game isn't dead, it's defintely on life support and Nintendo is the spastic gradeschooler with ADHD desperately trying to pull the plug, same as it's been for Melee for the last near two decades. The community heads are just the nurses slapping Nintendo's hand whenever it gets anywhere near the plug. Maybe eventually Nintendo will get bored and leave it alone, but I wouldn't count on it.
this doesnt apply to pro play does it? cuz the best players in the world main characters that are nto TOD characters.
tbf the characters that "outplay for 3 minutes straight just to get TOD'd" also come with insanely better neutral than most
I get what the guy is saying about not trying to minimize the players achievements but like… they don’t have to be as good or try as hard as most players. Riddles is fundamentally a much much worse player than Leo or Spargo but he can still win because he decided to choose a specific character
womp womp
I think it’s a mechanic. They had the opportunity to get rid of it but they kept it in through MULTIPLE games. This is Sakurai’s grand design
It is WILDDD that he has peach as a 0td combo character in the background so much. I don't think people understand quite how complicated peach combos are
He has ice climbers as a 0td character whose combos are also very difficult. The difficulty of the combos doesn’t make the character not capable of doing them.
this shit is the reason I full send switched to min min after being a link main since 2015. I actually have a say in what happens to me and when I lose, I feel like I was outplayed. Playing the lamest character in the game makes every matchup more fun for me than it is for them and I love that.
I play kazuya and enjoy it. In my defense, it’s really fun to 0td people
I know this man didn’t say Roy side b kills at 40 at ledge and Pichu is the dummy. I mean, they’re not wrong but chief if yours gonna use a character as an example, don’t use the character who dies when someone breathes
6:52 this is genuinely all Byleth’s go for against my DK and it’s honestly pathetic. Getting out of it and securing the W feels divine lmao
if they have a path to victory easier than others why wouldn't they go for it? its not pathetic, its common sense. and im not even a byleth player
@@nap_time_ it shows a singular thirst for gsp and a fear of getting bodied/lack of confidence in one’s skill that cannot be respected lol. But hey if you wanna be a WiFi sweatlord that’s up to you lmao
@@nathanm6372 'lack of confidence' ok bro. just dont get hit by it
@@nap_time_ okay keyboard warrior, you respond faster than the cops lol. Such a weak counter-point to try throwing out on a video entirely about ToD nonsense and how it makes the game less fun and skill based 😂
@@nathanm6372 i agree ToDs r shit but like... i dont think this counts because its one character specific and also its not the easiest thing to start- if ur getting hit by raw up b that kinda is a skill issue. and i respond fast because i dont have a life
smash ultimate was perfect until whichever patch nerfed wolf
Kazuya, Hero, Min Min and Steve ruined Smash for me. Kazuya has a broken moveset, Hero has too many moves, Min Mins are cowards, and Steve can whoop your ass in the most boring way possible. I’d rather get whooped by a broken Pythra
i think peach is the only character in this archetype that is remotely ok to exist as she is, she’s the only one where you actually need to learn and master in-depth character-specific mechanics in order to make half the shit she does work, on top of everything else needed to play the game at top level
879 views in 19 minutes…. Jk props lmao
second?
If you’re not first you’re last
ToD is literally all of melee at top play lmao get over it imo
First?
All these people saying the characters are so broken the quit yall wimps
As a kazuya co-main I can confirm that he has some stupid bs. However despite that he is still fundamentally a pretty mid character(bad neutral and horrendous disadvantage) despite him being a ToD. And IMO he's probably one of the most balanced characters of that archetype
Edit: fixed a typo
or just get good 😏🤙🏼
Skill issue tbh
Respectfully, skill issue. ToD chars have bad neutral.