The boiler statement needs more clarification,the 117 boiler fitted to the A2/3s no spare boilers were built for these engines,and that is why the Peppercorn 118 boilers were used , Doncaster considered the boilers to be interchangeble,and at various times the two types were used on both A2/1s,3s,A2s and A1s,in fact by 1962 all A2/3s had carried the 118 type at some time,the obvious way to tell the difference is the dome shape,except that is when the 117 boiler was used on the A1s,and the one A2/1,when a dummy banjo dome cover was fitted.
@@routeman680 Yes your right that was a mistake the A2/1s were fitted with the 109 diagram boiler.the 117 boiler was only used on 60505 fitted in 1957 to scrap,the 117 boiler was interchangable with the 118,on A2/3s A2s and A1s.
Edward Thompson was my great uncle. My Brother and Sister and myself were taken to meet him once when he lived just outside Sandwich in Kent. I think it was 1953 and he was retired. Like Uncles did in those days, he gave each of us a half crown. He was of course very highly regarded in the family and was always referred to as Uncle Ned.
Hate to say it, but the A2/3 Thompson Pacific's were failures overall. Their long bogie arrangements meant that their pipes and frames tended to bend. Not to mention the problems with wheelslip and also jamming breaks
@@RB-vr6zego watch Railway Mania episode 5, or the A1/1 episode of this series before you go spouting that nonsense. I love Gresley as much as the next LNER foamer, but I hate it when people talk straight up lies without a single effort to research.
@@thestarlightalchemist7333 sorry thats my bad. forgot to correct that it was the A1/1 that had the issues, the A2/2's were some of Thomsons best units
They weren’t in reality *that* long, the A2/1’s were just about 4 or 5 feet longer than the V2’s. I think even the LMS Princess Royals were longer, possibly the GWR Kings, not to mention the Raven A2’s, THEY were the definition of *L O N G L A D S* Unfortunately they didn’t last long enough to work the Thompson pacifics.
In my youth I frequently visited the East Coast mainline at Hitchen. The Thompson A2’s were only seen on secondary turns ,often the same that you could see V2’s on. The only A2’s to be seen on express passenger turns were the Peppercorn locos., but infrequently as they were all ( except 60535) allocated to the N.E. or Scottish Regions. Additionally, the majority of Thompson Pacifics, including 60113 were allocated to sheds which did not feature on long distance,high speed expresses ,these were the domain of Gresley & Peppercorn Pacifics from Kings Cross, Gateshead/Heaton & Haymarket.
Well I know they were not an uncommon sight at the head of 'The Norseman' King's Cross to Newcastle train, though I couldn't find anything else in regards to prestigious work they may or may not have done. Thanks for the info!
I did come across one photograph of #60500 “Edward Thompson” pulling the “Heart of Midlothian” train in the 60’s. Along with a postcard advertising the “Yorkshire Pullman” in the 50’s with the engine pulling it.
Yet the official records (and many photographs!) shows that your opinion isn’t true. Thompson Pacifics were to be found across all of the top link trains in the 40s, 50s and 60s. They were more rarely seen but they were indeed recorded. The Thompson Pacifics were much more small in number, as wartime stop gaps, and as such were always going to have been seen less overall.
Honestly, I'd like to take up the one to have Thompson's A/3 Pacifics as my favorite mainline locomotive for Britain. Probably cause of it's size but also cause of them being such odd ones out at the same time, a shame none of them survived into preservation, I should try getting a model of one of them. Very informative, Scott, very well done as usual.
Well YT randomly threw this up on my recommended vids and now I have the urge to do a bit of digging and work this engine in to an episode of The Loco Files
I was a Service Manager in a former life and the reason that Thompson's Pacifics went to the scrap heap first was due to them being a relatively small class whereas parts for the older Gresley engines were more plentiful. You state yourself that conjugated valve gear is high maintenance. It is, but Thompson never had the staff to maintain it so Thompson tried to simplify things. He had also promised to use as much of the P2s as possible. Hence short rods and wheelbase when he used 3/4 of the rear frame section of the P2s. Regarding their propensity for slipping, yes they did slip, but I doubt that they were worse than Bulleid's Pacifics and regarding cylinder location it is not far removed from the Stars, Castles, Kings, Princesses and Chapelon's locomotives, all of which were classed as successful. Thompsons valve events were good and his engines were free steaming. They were not faultless but their early demise was due to dieselisation not necessarily inefficiency. The A2/2 locos were more reliable than the P2s and did not suffer broken axles like both they and Bulleid's Pacifics did. I often saw a Thompson Pacific on the Heart of Midlothian admittedly never on the Scotsman, but even A3s were precluded from that train.
In my eyes they don't look ugly because I love every steam locomotive in the world and through times no matter how they look or if they were way too expensive or if they they failed many times in service!
The A4s outlasted the A2/3s only by about one year 1965-1966. The A2 class (Thompson A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 and the Peppercorn A2) had 6ft 2in coupled wheels and were intended for mixed traffic. The Gresley A3s and A4s and Peppercorn A1s had 6ft 8in coupled wheels and were intended for express passenger use. Even so, some sheds seem to have used their Pacific engines interchangeably. Withdrawals of all the Pacific types really got under way in 1962, when the first A4 and first A2/3s were withdrawn, along with A3s and Peppercorn A2s. With the arrival of Deltics and the closure of Kings Cross Shed in mid 1963 the Pacifics' express days were numbered.
I know you do mainly British stuff, but the Prussian P8 4-6-0 are a fascinating class. Later known as the P38's in Deutsch Reichsbahn and Deutsch Bundesbahn service, these rugged mixed traffic locos influenced mixed traffic engines from Spain to Russia.
This opinion is, factually, the wrong and pig ignorant one. If you wish to attack his character, if you follow the bread crumbs you will find Thompson and Peppercorn were very much alike in the way they worked with their direct and indirect subordinates. If you wish to devalue the engineering, I point to the LNER board minutes and availability numbers. His Pacifics had a higher availability than the A3s and therefor did more work when they were needed most. Only the fitting of the Kylchap to the Racehorses made them the better locomotives in the end. If you wish to ridicule Thompson's A1/1, 60113 had the highest mileage out of any Pacific on the East Coast by the time her cylinder wore out. It was not his choice to rebuilt that particular locomotive, only adding to the backwards stance that Gresley and Stanier rebuilding the locomotives of their predecessors is somehow any different.
@@FlyingScott opinions are opinions and you have every right to expand your views as to why my opinion may be wrong. It is also your right to describe a differing opinion as ‘pig ignorant’ although such a description would appear to deny any respect for differing views. I have found your content to be both interesting and informative, but I will now exercise my right to cease patronising your channel.
@@FlyingScott if I may, Great northern had the highest mileage of the Thompson Pacifics. Older Gresley locos had higher mileages, and some Peppercorn A1s were higher for lifetime mileages too. But she’s definitely right up there. Otherwise entirely correct what you say.
Good video, with its engrossing and sensitive treatment of this ticklish subject! Apart from which I was intrigued by a small detail - at about 7:55 Flying Scott refers to Polmadie depot. Back in the day, my spotting chums and I (all schoolboy Sassenachs from Nottingham!) pronounced it Pol-MAY-dee until we were corrected by someone supposedly in-the-know telling us that it should be Polma-DEE. And now about 65 years later, Flying Scott comes along, as authentic a source as anyone could hope to hear, calling it Pol-MAA-dee! Can anyone enlighten me as to the definitive version?
I've heard it pronounced various ways. Most common seems to be Pol-Maddy, in second place is Polma-DEE, firmly. Turns out Polma-DEE is the correct one, as it is stressed the same way it would be in Gaelic! Oops!
If anything, he simplified them. But a reduce in specialised mechanisms means a reduce in performance. They were great for hauling trains at 75 mph, the Thompsons that is, but they certainly were no A3s.
Hm… some of these designs seem familiar, pertaining to a certain big blue engine we all are likely familiar with Gordon has the simple dome of a Pepercorn A1, a similar footplate to a Thompson A2 with a modification that that one dip isn’t there, has the wheel configuration of a A1/3, the length and boiler shape of a Peppercorn A1, the pistons of a Stanier, and the spirit of a Doncaster Quite the interesting engine design
I honestly would like if some trust made a replica of Great Northern as an A1/1. Great Northern overall was the highest mileage Thompson pacific, and availability close to the best performing A4’s. She had the same boiler as an A4, A4 frames with little modifications, and the similar 8-wheel tender.
Thompson really did get some unfair stick over his time in charge. Yes some of his rebuilds was barely any better than the class they replaced (here’s looking at you P2 & A2/2) but he had little in the way of finances and resources to work with because of the fallout from the war. And he proved he could come up with his own truly excellent designs (the B1). Also, LONG LADS 😂😂😂😂😂
It is disingenuous to label the A2/2s as "worse" than the P2s. Truth is the P2s were colossal failures marked with a few moments of success. The A2/2 steamed better, spent less time on the maintenance row, had a higher overall availability and frankly were better suited to the jobs the East Coast had available, after the Aberdeen Road had no need for them. They just don't hold a candle to the A4s and eventually even the Kylchap A3s surpassed them. In of themselves, they were good, willing locomotives, but the constant comparison to machines built for totally different purposes does not paint them in a good light at all.
@@FlyingScott Oh don’t get me wrong I’m not slating the A2/2’s or Thompson. Merely pointing out that they wasn’t the best of his rebuild attempts and that he only had limited resources to try to implement what he wanted.
@@FlyingScott I think hate is too strong a word. I've read a lot of accounts over the years from people that knew him and worked with him. He certainly was no man manager unlike Peppercorn, they were as different as chalk and cheese. Peppercorn was more of a Team Manager, Thompson an Autocrat. He certainly knew what he was doing with choosing Great Northern as was pointed out to him at the time. There were plenty of other equally poor A1 Locomotives he could have chosen. You certainly had to approach him with care if you wanted to get him to re-look at one of his decision. Quite a few paid the price and were moved ...When we say this was a Thompson Locomotive or Peppercorn Locomotive, really it is the design of the Head Draughtsman and his team with the CME saying what he wanted. Thompson moved Gresley's Head Draughtsman and Peppercorn brought him back again.
The boiler statement needs more clarification,the 117 boiler fitted to the A2/3s no spare boilers were built for these engines,and that is why the Peppercorn 118 boilers were used , Doncaster considered the boilers to be interchangeble,and at various times the two types were used on both A2/1s,3s,A2s and A1s,in fact by 1962 all A2/3s had carried the 118 type at some time,the obvious way to tell the difference is the dome shape,except that is when the 117 boiler was used on the A1s,and the one A2/1,when a dummy banjo dome cover was fitted.
Don't you mean a 117 boiler was fitted to an A2/2, not an A2/1?
@@routeman680 Yes your right that was a mistake the A2/1s were fitted with the 109 diagram boiler.the 117 boiler was only used on 60505 fitted in 1957 to scrap,the 117 boiler was interchangable with the 118,on A2/3s A2s and A1s.
Edward Thompson was my great uncle. My Brother and Sister and myself were taken to meet him once when he lived just outside Sandwich in Kent. I think it was 1953 and he was retired. Like Uncles did in those days, he gave each of us a half crown. He was of course very highly regarded in the family and was always referred to as Uncle Ned.
Hate to say it, but the A2/3 Thompson Pacific's were failures overall. Their long bogie arrangements meant that their pipes and frames tended to bend. Not to mention the problems with wheelslip and also jamming breaks
@@RB-vr6zego watch Railway Mania episode 5, or the A1/1 episode of this series before you go spouting that nonsense. I love Gresley as much as the next LNER foamer, but I hate it when people talk straight up lies without a single effort to research.
@@thestarlightalchemist7333 sorry thats my bad. forgot to correct that it was the A1/1 that had the issues, the A2/2's were some of Thomsons best units
We will now forever refer to all Thompson Pacifics as *L O N G L A D S* .
Someone make this a meme
They weren’t in reality *that* long, the A2/1’s were just about 4 or 5 feet longer than the V2’s. I think even the LMS Princess Royals were longer, possibly the GWR Kings, not to mention the Raven A2’s, THEY were the definition of *L O N G L A D S*
Unfortunately they didn’t last long enough to work the Thompson pacifics.
Yes
I legitimately died in laughter after hearing *LONG LADS* . Very nice video definitely gaining a subscriber for that. Keep up the great work
That's perhaps the best description of Gresleys weird ass Valve gear I've ever heard.
Interesting history on the Thompson A2 family. Nicely done my dude!
Glad you liked it, especially since I know you're not all too much into LNER locos!
In my youth I frequently visited the East Coast mainline at Hitchen. The Thompson A2’s were only seen on secondary turns ,often the same that you could see V2’s on. The only A2’s to be seen on express passenger turns were the Peppercorn locos., but infrequently as they were all ( except 60535) allocated to the N.E. or Scottish Regions. Additionally, the majority of Thompson Pacifics, including 60113 were allocated to sheds which did not feature on long distance,high speed expresses ,these were the domain of Gresley & Peppercorn Pacifics from Kings Cross, Gateshead/Heaton & Haymarket.
Well I know they were not an uncommon sight at the head of 'The Norseman' King's Cross to Newcastle train, though I couldn't find anything else in regards to prestigious work they may or may not have done. Thanks for the info!
I did come across one photograph of #60500 “Edward Thompson” pulling the “Heart of Midlothian” train in the 60’s. Along with a postcard advertising the “Yorkshire Pullman” in the 50’s with the engine pulling it.
Yet the official records (and many photographs!) shows that your opinion isn’t true.
Thompson Pacifics were to be found across all of the top link trains in the 40s, 50s and 60s. They were more rarely seen but they were indeed recorded.
The Thompson Pacifics were much more small in number, as wartime stop gaps, and as such were always going to have been seen less overall.
You have awoken my love for Thompson Pacifics. Thank you so much!!!
I’m not sure if “long lads” was supposed to be as funny as it is but it really got me
Honestly, I'd like to take up the one to have Thompson's A/3 Pacifics as my favorite mainline locomotive for Britain. Probably cause of it's size but also cause of them being such odd ones out at the same time, a shame none of them survived into preservation, I should try getting a model of one of them. Very informative, Scott, very well done as usual.
Well YT randomly threw this up on my recommended vids and now I have the urge to do a bit of digging and work this engine in to an episode of The Loco Files
L O N G L A D S
I was a Service Manager in a former life and the reason that Thompson's Pacifics went to the scrap heap first was due to them being a relatively small class whereas parts for the older Gresley engines were more plentiful. You state yourself that conjugated valve gear is high maintenance. It is, but Thompson never had the staff to maintain it so Thompson tried to simplify things. He had also promised to use as much of the P2s as possible. Hence short rods and wheelbase when he used 3/4 of the rear frame section of the P2s.
Regarding their propensity for slipping, yes they did slip, but I doubt that they were worse than Bulleid's Pacifics and regarding cylinder location it is not far removed from the Stars, Castles, Kings, Princesses and Chapelon's locomotives, all of which were classed as successful.
Thompsons valve events were good and his engines were free steaming. They were not faultless but their early demise was due to dieselisation not necessarily inefficiency. The A2/2 locos were more reliable than the P2s and did not suffer broken axles like both they and Bulleid's Pacifics did.
I often saw a Thompson Pacific on the Heart of Midlothian admittedly never on the Scotsman, but even A3s were precluded from that train.
In my eyes they don't look ugly because I love every steam locomotive in the world and through times no matter how they look or if they were way too expensive or if they they failed many times in service!
To be honest i really like them they were practically attractive locomotives in my opinion
This channel has got potential
The A4s outlasted the A2/3s only by about one year 1965-1966. The A2 class (Thompson A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 and the Peppercorn A2) had 6ft 2in coupled wheels and were intended for mixed traffic. The Gresley A3s and A4s and Peppercorn A1s had 6ft 8in coupled wheels and were intended for express passenger use. Even so, some sheds seem to have used their Pacific engines interchangeably. Withdrawals of all the Pacific types really got under way in 1962, when the first A4 and first A2/3s were withdrawn, along with A3s and Peppercorn A2s. With the arrival of Deltics and the closure of Kings Cross Shed in mid 1963 the Pacifics' express days were numbered.
What better than a Scotsman talking discussing steam locomotives?
brilliant video mate, just gotta love LNER engines, of any kind!
Awesome video! Great work
I 'spotted' 60517 Ocean Swell across the platform from a passing train back in '61, and may have seen a couple more
Picture of 500 taken at Nottingham Victoria.
Great presentation
It’s ashamed that none of the Thompson Class A2/3s were not in preservation
I dunno why I'm here
I dunno what I'm watching
But I'm entertained
Oh could you do either the 9f class or the city class next please those are my top 2 favorite loco classes
I know you do mainly British stuff, but the Prussian P8 4-6-0 are a fascinating class. Later known as the P38's in Deutsch Reichsbahn and Deutsch Bundesbahn service, these rugged mixed traffic locos influenced mixed traffic engines from Spain to Russia.
Oooh, those are indeed interesting. Lot of film of them in the Schwartzwalt, living out their final years. Will look into it!
I would like you to do the episode about Thompson A2/1s.
Thompson should be remembered for the B1 and everything else conveniently forgotten.
This opinion is, factually, the wrong and pig ignorant one.
If you wish to attack his character, if you follow the bread crumbs you will find Thompson and Peppercorn were very much alike in the way they worked with their direct and indirect subordinates.
If you wish to devalue the engineering, I point to the LNER board minutes and availability numbers. His Pacifics had a higher availability than the A3s and therefor did more work when they were needed most. Only the fitting of the Kylchap to the Racehorses made them the better locomotives in the end.
If you wish to ridicule Thompson's A1/1, 60113 had the highest mileage out of any Pacific on the East Coast by the time her cylinder wore out. It was not his choice to rebuilt that particular locomotive, only adding to the backwards stance that Gresley and Stanier rebuilding the locomotives of their predecessors is somehow any different.
@@FlyingScott opinions are opinions and you have every right to expand your views as to why my opinion may be wrong. It is also your right to describe a differing opinion as ‘pig ignorant’ although such a description would appear to deny any respect for differing views. I have found your content to be both interesting and informative, but I will now exercise my right to cease patronising your channel.
@@FlyingScott if I may, Great northern had the highest mileage of the Thompson Pacifics. Older Gresley locos had higher mileages, and some Peppercorn A1s were higher for lifetime mileages too. But she’s definitely right up there. Otherwise entirely correct what you say.
I would like you to release videos of the A4 and A3 Pacifics please
I love them hope someone might build one
Have you ever considered doing a video on the Raven A2?
I love Thompson A2/A3s. Their smoke deflectors look great on them, in my personal opinion they look better than the Gresley A1
Hi mate
a fantastic made video some great info too
A video on lms princess please
Keep safe arp
Good video, with its engrossing and sensitive treatment of this ticklish subject! Apart from which I was intrigued by a small detail - at about 7:55 Flying Scott refers to Polmadie depot. Back in the day, my spotting chums and I (all schoolboy Sassenachs from Nottingham!) pronounced it
Pol-MAY-dee until we were corrected by someone supposedly in-the-know telling us that it should be Polma-DEE. And now about 65 years later, Flying Scott comes along, as authentic a source as anyone could hope to hear, calling it Pol-MAA-dee! Can anyone enlighten me as to the definitive version?
I've heard it pronounced various ways. Most common seems to be Pol-Maddy, in second place is Polma-DEE, firmly. Turns out Polma-DEE is the correct one, as it is stressed the same way it would be in Gaelic! Oops!
@@FlyingScott Ha, ha! - thanks for that, very enlightening! Now, while we're at it, what about Milngavie, Culross, Garioch, Culzean..............
so you see kids, Thompson didn't ruin Gresley's locos, he fixed them.
If anything, he simplified them. But a reduce in specialised mechanisms means a reduce in performance. They were great for hauling trains at 75 mph, the Thompsons that is, but they certainly were no A3s.
@@FlyingScott Definitely the right move during WW2
@@popothefirst6521 Except most were built after WW2
60500 Edward Thompson should have been preserved
Poor old Thompson. He gets as almost as much stick as Bouch.
As a joke I know why people hate Edward Thompson because
An a2 had a stroke
2:48-2:53
The Golden Moment
Hm… some of these designs seem familiar, pertaining to a certain big blue engine we all are likely familiar with
Gordon has the simple dome of a Pepercorn A1, a similar footplate to a Thompson A2 with a modification that that one dip isn’t there, has the wheel configuration of a A1/3, the length and boiler shape of a Peppercorn A1, the pistons of a Stanier, and the spirit of a Doncaster
Quite the interesting engine design
Ok guys who wants to start the a2/3 trust building 1 to recreate this extinct class
I honestly would like if some trust made a replica of Great Northern as an A1/1. Great Northern overall was the highest mileage Thompson pacific, and availability close to the best performing A4’s. She had the same boiler as an A4, A4 frames with little modifications, and the similar 8-wheel tender.
@@Kris-qy7hh ok all we need to do is try and get 5 million from somewhere
Nice history
l o n g l a d s
I dunno about you but I love the A2/3s looks. Big sexy
Thompson really did get some unfair stick over his time in charge. Yes some of his rebuilds was barely any better than the class they replaced (here’s looking at you P2 & A2/2) but he had little in the way of finances and resources to work with because of the fallout from the war. And he proved he could come up with his own truly excellent designs (the B1).
Also, LONG LADS 😂😂😂😂😂
It is disingenuous to label the A2/2s as "worse" than the P2s. Truth is the P2s were colossal failures marked with a few moments of success. The A2/2 steamed better, spent less time on the maintenance row, had a higher overall availability and frankly were better suited to the jobs the East Coast had available, after the Aberdeen Road had no need for them.
They just don't hold a candle to the A4s and eventually even the Kylchap A3s surpassed them. In of themselves, they were good, willing locomotives, but the constant comparison to machines built for totally different purposes does not paint them in a good light at all.
@@FlyingScott Oh don’t get me wrong I’m not slating the A2/2’s or Thompson. Merely pointing out that they wasn’t the best of his rebuild attempts and that he only had limited resources to try to implement what he wanted.
All hale the L O N G L A D S 🫡
Epic
causually looking from the comment on this from Little Blue Embarrresment
2:51
You’re welcome.
Tbh I like the Thompson engines, even the pacifics. I have a taste for "different" engines out of the overrated ones...
GWR Holden 101 0-4-0
Oooh that's a good one, on the list it goes!
This video explains why everyone hates Edward Thompson
People blind to historical context and the nature of the CME position "hate" Thompson.
@@FlyingScott I think hate is too strong a word. I've read a lot of accounts over the years from people that knew him and worked with him. He certainly was no man manager unlike Peppercorn, they were as different as chalk and cheese. Peppercorn was more of a Team Manager, Thompson an Autocrat. He certainly knew what he was doing with choosing Great Northern as was pointed out to him at the time. There were plenty of other equally poor A1 Locomotives he could have chosen. You certainly had to approach him with care if you wanted to get him to re-look at one of his decision. Quite a few paid the price and were moved ...When we say this was a Thompson Locomotive or Peppercorn Locomotive, really it is the design of the Head Draughtsman and his team with the CME saying what he wanted. Thompson moved Gresley's Head Draughtsman and Peppercorn brought him back again.
this loco class was god ugly and may it never be brought back