I've been in your shoes on this one Blair. I'd say talk to whoever you need to and let them know that as a responsible and caring person you don't believe that the extra cost vs gain is something you want to do. Yeah, sometimes it's not easy having a conscience! Thanks for sharing and take care.
A real pain, especially with eucalyptus, gum, blue gum, ... topping, but such tinder-snappy wood, that any safety pruning of the top, but snapping branches all the way down, or even potentially have a major trunk or limb just decide to split in 2. Very difficult situation. Get a miliary banana helicopter, cable lash up both trees, lift up, cut off at bottom, take over to your wood shop, and drop. No problems thereafter !!!
With hopes of a follow up video, I'm standing back and watching, waiting for the decision. And like another commenter said, I'd be concerned about those sudden branch drops. I think it was Dr Harris who wrote about that. Now I need to go find it again...
I would only really recommend reducing the branches that are coming out sideways. We've got a couple of giant gum trees at my parents place and the only problems we've had with those is the bar branches coming down because all the weight is at the ends of them. If the weather doesn't look like there is any forseeable droughts I don't see the problem :/ (in Australia here btw)
Not sure. From the way those Gums are branching out fairly low down the trunk some coppicing or topping may have occurred early in their lives. If that is the case all those big branches are compromised right from where they grow from the trunk.
I'm also an Australian arborist. You are spot on. I'd recommend establishing replacement trees now with a plan for eventually removing these two. Eucs are not like oaks or liquidambar or other large trees that you're familiar with, they are not forever. Fire is an essential part of their lifecycle and while they might live for several hundred years they really are not optimised for it biologically or structurally. They grow fast and die young as far as big trees are concerned.
JefAlan Long we have 100 plus year old Blue Gums here and yes fire is a huge concern. Often built homes around these giants, they can be significant liabilities.
Blair sorry don't misunderstand me I'm not saying they are a greater fire risk than a similar tree (although with a very high oil content in dry conditions that is indeed the case) so much as that bushfire is a natural part of their lifecycle in their native home and therefore they don't develop the structure that a similar sized oak or whatever might. 100 years is a very good innings for a euc where an oak might expect 1000 if unmolested. Best.
agun17 lots of trees drop limbs. Big trees drop big limbs. When a Euc fails, damage can be bad. So Eucs get a bad rap but the reality is that it is dependent on the species. Red iron bark more than most.
agun17 it is true that eucalypts can drop dead limbs after they completely seal off against the dead tissue. However there is warning, this limb will have had no foliage for a number of years and clearly be dead. This will usually happen on an unusually windy day or night or during a storm.
how old are they? we have plenty giants like those here in phoenix az. recently one here in my apartment complex has been dropping limbs and damaging cars. many people fear them and i can see why but they are gorgeous! especially at there peak of growth for the season.
I also would like to see a follow up. look, tree's aren't manufacturing decisions based on conforming design. each is like a fingerprint. you can top any tree, but usually the results are a mess. if they truly want these, then a minimal thinning/raising is the way to go, and you hope for the best, maybe even installing fencing? I don't know, but the risk is "usually" worth it for at least a few years. as for spur use, I've found, with exception to ornamentals and trees such as these, (very smooth bark) doesn't affect the health of the tree that much. other than unsightly scratches/tears, with he right size gaffs the "wounds" are usually minimal, and heal fast. I can show you cottonwoods/hackberry's/oaks/maples/REDWOODS that aren't negatively affected in the least, not to mention providing safety to the climber. the sharper the gaff, the smaller the wound. interesting stuff none the less...
Hi Blair, I have worked as a tree surgeon in Perth Western Australia and have worked on a lot gums (local term for eucs) and as you know if you lop them or cut them back too much, as you said, they will sucker and this grow will have a very weak attachment. Which will end up being more dangerous than the current structure. Do you know what species of euc the trees are? As these large gums are called widow makers and depending on the species can be notoriuos limb droppers. Does it show signs of having dropped any limbs in the past? Anyway a very tricky one to be cofronted with, I will be intersted to see how you go. Regards Mark
Mark Denning thanks Mark, the Eucalyptus globulas (blue gum), get huge in California. The fear of this tree is based on when a failure does occur, there is a lot of weight coming down. That doesn't mean that failures are more common in this species. Failures are also often associated with past pruning wounds.
Hi Blair, thanks for the reply. It is good that it is a blue gum as my experience with them is that they are not usually limb droppers and very sound. But there are no guaratees with trees. As you said the effects of bad pruning can lead to limb failure. What I have noticed is that root damage can cause long term issues with a trees vigour & health and can lead to limb failure many years after the damage was done. Regards Mark
What the consulting arborist should have done is a tree risk assessment based on the clients concerns. Using the resistograph was a little premature and is usually the next step following the tree risk assessment.Tree Risk Assessments are based on defects or abnormalities in the tree or it's structure. Since, I'm assuming, there are no defects, the risk of failure would be relatively low, unless you have an "act of God". Raising the tree would only decrease the live crown ratio and increase the load on the lever arm, also increasing the chances of failure. The lateral branches on the tree appear to have been already reduced. I'm sure you've already asked, but what is the maintenance history on this tree? Other than maybe installing a cable or two? I would do nothing at this point and indicate to the client your reasons why.
Dane Connolly-Nelson I do consultations as well but because there is a conflict of interest, they went with a very reputable firm. I can't say I agree with the reduction recommendation and I'm going to decline the. They will find someone to do it though.
This looks like a potential "perfect storm" situation -- expensive consultant, owner worried about safety, strong incentive to do something (even if it's wrong). It's going to be hard to do any work safely. The result the owner wants will be aesthetically horrid, pointless and bad for the trees. Good luck...
Time to be like Davey Crocket......"know you are right and then go ahead". You know what is right ....run away as quickly as you can! Sadly these trees should come down. The minute you work on them you are commissioned into the wrong that made this situation. To bad they are not Oaks or Sycamores then it would really be vexing!
You will be $$$ ahead to not bid on it but talk with them and explain your side and then walk away. Engineers , conultants etc they don't always get it right as is the case here.
You're overthinking this, mate. Just do what the high-priced consultant recommended, get paid and get outta there. The decision has been made. You have been asked to bid on the job. Agree or disagree with the decision, as a business owner you have to bid based on resources, risk and manpower. You are not the consultant. (imho).
But it is also his and his businesses reputation on the line as well. If he does as the consultant says and the owner freaks out to how butchered or how awful the tree looks a year from now, the blame is on Blair.
Mike Jowsey I put my name on my work. Just because "that's the job", doesn't make it right. Ethically speaking, you're missing the purpose of this channel.
Good to see and hear from someone who cares about more than just a mighty buck. Thk Blair
I've been in your shoes on this one Blair. I'd say talk to whoever you need to and let them know that as a responsible and caring person you don't believe that the extra cost vs gain is something you want to do.
Yeah, sometimes it's not easy having a conscience!
Thanks for sharing and take care.
Blair puts the trees and safety first. Very admirable quality.
A real pain, especially with eucalyptus, gum, blue gum, ... topping, but such tinder-snappy wood, that any safety pruning of the top, but snapping branches all the way down, or even potentially have a major trunk or limb just decide to split in 2. Very difficult situation. Get a miliary banana helicopter, cable lash up both trees, lift up, cut off at bottom, take over to your wood shop, and drop. No problems thereafter !!!
With hopes of a follow up video, I'm standing back and watching, waiting for the decision.
And like another commenter said, I'd be concerned about those sudden branch drops. I think it was Dr Harris who wrote about that. Now I need to go find it again...
As a fellow Arborist I really appreciate your videos.
Thanks Max, stay safe
I would only really recommend reducing the branches that are coming out sideways. We've got a couple of giant gum trees at my parents place and the only problems we've had with those is the bar branches coming down because all the weight is at the ends of them. If the weather doesn't look like there is any forseeable droughts I don't see the problem :/ (in Australia here btw)
Not sure. From the way those Gums are branching out fairly low down the trunk some coppicing or topping may have occurred early in their lives. If that is the case all those big branches are compromised right from where they grow from the trunk.
Beautiful trees. I hope they don't hack them up out of paranoia.
I'm also an Australian arborist. You are spot on. I'd recommend establishing replacement trees now with a plan for eventually removing these two. Eucs are not like oaks or liquidambar or other large trees that you're familiar with, they are not forever. Fire is an essential part of their lifecycle and while they might live for several hundred years they really are not optimised for it biologically or structurally. They grow fast and die young as far as big trees are concerned.
JefAlan Long we have 100 plus year old Blue Gums here and yes fire is a huge concern. Often built homes around these giants, they can be significant liabilities.
Blair sorry don't misunderstand me I'm not saying they are a greater fire risk than a similar tree (although with a very high oil content in dry conditions that is indeed the case) so much as that bushfire is a natural part of their lifecycle in their native home and therefore they don't develop the structure that a similar sized oak or whatever might. 100 years is a very good innings for a euc where an oak might expect 1000 if unmolested. Best.
Is it true that eucalyptus trees can drop huge logs without warning?
agun17 lots of trees drop limbs. Big trees drop big limbs. When a Euc fails, damage can be bad. So Eucs get a bad rap but the reality is that it is dependent on the species. Red iron bark more than most.
agun17 it is true that eucalypts can drop dead limbs after they completely seal off against the dead tissue. However there is warning, this limb will have had no foliage for a number of years and clearly be dead. This will usually happen on an unusually windy day or night or during a storm.
how old are they? we have plenty giants like those here in phoenix az. recently one here in my apartment complex has been dropping limbs and damaging cars. many people fear them and i can see why but they are gorgeous! especially at there peak of growth for the season.
I also would like to see a follow up. look, tree's aren't manufacturing decisions based on conforming design. each is like a fingerprint. you can top any tree, but usually the results are a mess. if they truly want these, then a minimal thinning/raising is the way to go, and you hope for the best, maybe even installing fencing? I don't know, but the risk is "usually" worth it for at least a few years. as for spur use, I've found, with exception to ornamentals and trees such as these, (very smooth bark) doesn't affect the health of the tree that much. other than unsightly scratches/tears, with he right size gaffs the "wounds" are usually minimal, and heal fast. I can show you cottonwoods/hackberry's/oaks/maples/REDWOODS that aren't negatively affected in the least, not to mention providing safety to the climber. the sharper the gaff, the smaller the wound. interesting stuff none the less...
Hi Blair,
I have worked as a tree surgeon in Perth Western Australia and have worked on a lot gums (local term for eucs) and as you know if you lop them or cut them back too much, as you said, they will sucker and this grow will have a very weak attachment. Which will end up being more dangerous than the current structure. Do you know what species of euc the trees are? As these large gums are called widow makers and depending on the species can be notoriuos limb droppers. Does it show signs of having dropped any limbs in the past?
Anyway a very tricky one to be cofronted with, I will be intersted to see how you go.
Regards
Mark
Mark Denning thanks Mark, the Eucalyptus globulas (blue gum), get huge in California. The fear of this tree is based on when a failure does occur, there is a lot of weight coming down. That doesn't mean that failures are more common in this species. Failures are also often associated with past pruning wounds.
Hi Blair, thanks for the reply. It is good that it is a blue gum as my experience with them is that they are not usually limb droppers and very sound. But there are no guaratees with trees. As you said the effects of bad pruning can lead to limb failure.
What I have noticed is that root damage can cause long term issues with a trees vigour & health and can lead to limb failure many years after the damage was done.
Regards
Mark
Agree with you
What the consulting arborist should have done is a tree risk assessment based on the clients concerns. Using the resistograph was a little premature and is usually the next step following the tree risk assessment.Tree Risk Assessments are based on defects or abnormalities in the tree or it's structure. Since, I'm assuming, there are no defects, the risk of failure would be relatively low, unless you have an "act of God". Raising the tree would only decrease the live crown ratio and increase the load on the lever arm, also increasing the chances of failure. The lateral branches on the tree appear to have been already reduced. I'm sure you've already asked, but what is the maintenance history on this tree? Other than maybe installing a cable or two? I would do nothing at this point and indicate to the client your reasons why.
Dane Connolly-Nelson I do consultations as well but because there is a conflict of interest, they went with a very reputable firm. I can't say I agree with the reduction recommendation and I'm going to decline the. They will find someone to do it though.
This looks like a potential "perfect storm" situation -- expensive consultant, owner worried about safety, strong incentive to do something (even if it's wrong). It's going to be hard to do any work safely. The result the owner wants will be aesthetically horrid, pointless and bad for the trees. Good luck...
yes David-
Time to be like Davey Crocket......"know you are right and then go ahead". You know what is right ....run away as quickly as you can! Sadly these trees should come down. The minute you work on them you are commissioned into the wrong that made this situation. To bad they are not Oaks or Sycamores then it would really be vexing!
You will be $$$ ahead to not bid on it but talk with them and explain your side and then walk away.
Engineers , conultants etc they don't always get it right as is the case here.
consultants (sorry)
You're overthinking this, mate. Just do what the high-priced consultant recommended, get paid and get outta there. The decision has been made. You have been asked to bid on the job. Agree or disagree with the decision, as a business owner you have to bid based on resources, risk and manpower. You are not the consultant. (imho).
But it is also his and his businesses reputation on the line as well. If he does as the consultant says and the owner freaks out to how butchered or how awful the tree looks a year from now, the blame is on Blair.
Mike Jowsey I put my name on my work. Just because "that's the job", doesn't make it right. Ethically speaking, you're missing the purpose of this channel.