The God's not dead example is so absurd too, they're trying to create a philosopher atheist professor but it's a guy whose actually Christian and just mad at god. You can't be mad at God if you don't believe... One of the many hilarious blunders of that movie series, and shallow apologetics
I know right. Never laughed so hard than hearing a pastor say, "I used to be an atheist. Back then I was so mad at god I threw my bible at the wall every day." I think it's fair to say he was never an atheist, without committing the no true Scotsman falicy.
The "you can be mad/hate (what ever) God because don't exist/don't believe" made zero sense.... People have feeling for fictional character all the time... I hate palatine... And I mad with Anakin... But I'm not believe in them..
This "hating god = atheist" absurdity originated with *C.S. Lewis,* who personally claimed he was once an atheist while simultaneously claiming to hate god. Lewis' position is nonsense when it's analysed, but Christians prefer to believe that nonsense, rather than try to understand an actual atheist.
I'm not mad at "god".. because HE's NEVER SHOWN UP OR SAID ANYTHING TO ME.. I'm ANGRY at the PEOPLE who spread 🐂💩 LIES and the TRAUMA they impose on young minds you're born a sinner as such you're a POS the only salvation is JESUS here eat his body and drink his blood you heathen!! get on your KNEES and BEG for forgiveness!! although.. in my family's eyes.. I'm NEVER worthy of forgiveness because I was born a sinner.. its a vicious cycle of abuse that started with my first black eye.. for being a sinner.. at 1.5 years of age.. these people deserve NOTHING but a JAIL CELL.. except.. their religion protects them and SHUNS the victim.. oh.. and.. me being GAY is the reason they give today.. 58 years later.. cuz.. yeah.. I was a practicing lesbian at 1.5
Lost my faith this month and I can say that the people who say "you were never a Christian" are the only ones that really hurt. 4 years of crying and screaming at the ceiling begging not to have God slip away. Once I finally made my decision it wasn't about my pervious faith and absolutely beliefs. Its about the fact I don't believe anymore.
I lost my faith around 2 years ago and it was really hard for me to admit to myself that I was no longer a believer, I prayed daily for God to come back into my heart but he never did and time moved on I came to terms that the feelings I was having for 14 years as a Born again belivere was all in my head, and I was parroting everything I heard from a early age.
*hugs* welcome. I can strongly relate to the years of crying over losing my faith when I lost my faith years ago. I still feel those emotions now when I look back. I got furious with my sister when she accused me of not being really strong in my faith when I was a kid. That was blatantly false, considering my faith was strongest in middle and high school, and I ended up hanging up on my sister in a rage because of it. It's laughable that she gave me that crap considering my sister was addicted to pain pills, drank underage, and performed sexual acts with other girls for the attention of boys when she was in high school (claiming to be Christian at the time), and admitted to me a while back that she only became strong in her faith after getting out of an abusive relationship in undergrad. It still hurts to have my previous faith questioned.
I recently came out as an atheist to a family of Christians, I have heard a lot of these. I have been told to "soul search." Every time I have been told this, I think about the fact that I have been soul searching since I had doubt in my faith about a year ago. I also tend to get the "What do you got to lose?" My thought is always my self identity and me wanting to find my true self as opposed to forcing myself to believe something I don't believe. Edit and update a year later: I am in a much much better headspace and far more confident in my journey of being an atheist in a community of Christians. I am happy to report that despite their being a couple "serious" arguments with my parents regarding religion over the past year, they have come around to respect my position. I don't know if this will be seen by anyone but I just wanted to update you all on this.
When you come out as a materialist/nihilist, it’s natural for family to respond with care. Atheism provides no basis for morality, truth or metaphysics.
@@MadebyJimbob How do you think we ignore all of the HORRIBLE teachings and commands by God in the Bible and only accept and adopt the GOOD teachings of the Bible, which are far fewer? It is called SECULAR REASONING. That means PEOPLE define morality. You should try to read the Bible to understand this statement. If you go to church and only concentrate on the small parts of the Bible that you LIKE and FIND MORALITY in it, that is not representative of the Bible as a whole. Christians ignore a lot of their Bible and pretend all the evil doesn't exist... They have to, which of course, is just lying to themselves. Christians are in the uncomfortable position of being far more moral and intelligent than their psychopath God of their Bible that they are told to worship, or burn in hell for eternity... Nice religion
@@MadebyJimbob Morality is really easy to establish. I want to be happy and live comfortably, simply because it's in my nature to do so. I live in a world with many people in it, and I interact with them every day. They also presumably want to live happily and comfortably. I could survive on my own in the forest or something; I would have to scavenge for food, build my own shelter, etc. But working together with people lets me live in an apartment, get running water and electricity, and a secure home where I can keep my belongings. When people work together to achieve their goals, we can always get further than if we all set out on our own. Therefore, I'm encouraged to help people when they need it, because others have helped me get to where I'm at. You don't need religion to establish that you should respect other people
One of my favorite response to "you left because you just want to sin" is "nah, I would have remained Christian if I really wanted to sin because I could just go get forgiven... ten Hail Marys plus five our fathers, then I'm golden." The look on their face... priceless.
I know some Christians do seem to live like they can sin and simply ask forgiveness and then carry on doing it. However, that is dishonest. I've met a few Christians like that, but most do not. If a Christian claims to love God and understand that sin cost Jesus his life, how could they possibly choose to go on deliberately sinning. That is not love, that, to my mind, is just using God's forgiveness to live how you want. You can't genuinely repent if you don't turn from the sin you know is wrong. God can not be fooled. He knows genuine repentance.
If I wanted to do quote on quote "evil" things without repercussions I'd absolutely play the role of an american christian. They have a proven track record of defending their in group no matter the accusations put against them. Meanwhile leaving christianity itself takes a lot of courage and a strong will to bear the ridicule hurled at oneself If leaving christianity to sin is the easy choice out then explain how you're already accusing me of being evil and interacting with me as such and how that is easier than telling you nothing Furthermore, you don't get to claim christians never harass atheists simply for existing anymore as that's exactly what you are doing right now I was also gonna say something about how it's weird that you think you can't sin as a christian and that you have to be an atheist... seeing as that's literally why christians believe they have to be forgiven and why jesus died... But I forgot the exact specifics on why this felt important lol
I choose not to believe in dragons simply because I want to live a life free of the fear of dragons. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with the complete lack of evidence for the existence of dragons.
Hmm, sorry for my pedantism, but so you *choose not to believe* in dragons, or have no choice but not believe due to lack of strong or sufficient evidence for their existence?
@@tempestive1 it’s a tongue-in-cheek poke at folks who claim that atheists simply choose not to believe in a god (typically, the Abrahamic version) because they like to sin and don’t want to think about being held accountable. These folks completely discount the lack of compelling evidence to believe in such a god in the first place.
@@stefanorinieri4656 I personally have not been told that one. Just repeatedly the hating god crap. I just tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens on religion poisons everything.
They are psychologically projecting their own insecurities onto you. A good response would be "Do you hate other gods? Allah? Dark Age Jesus? I love Deists more than any other religious faction, do you?" Since Deism is singularly about God only without much baggage.
"your friend became a Buddhist because she wanted to sin" is so funny to me, because Buddhism is a pretty rigorously ethical system of thought. that isn't to say that i agree with every aspect of every sect's ethical interpretations, but the broad discourse of how to minimize suffering is baked into it from the start. if anything can be said to be a universal Buddhist ethical principle, it's Ahimsa, non-violence, not intentionally causing suffering to any sentient being.
The argument becomes more ridiculous when it's used against ANOTHER religion with similar rules. It was already ineffective against atheism but this is a new low.
@@kevinquiroz5384 what's funnier is that the followers of Buddhism are way more peaceful than Christians and they don't go around trying to convert everyone like Christianity and Islam do.
@@kevinquiroz5384 it's theorized that Buddhist missionaries to Syria, Egypt, and Greece around 250 BC may have introduced some of the ethical principles that would form Christianity (the more reasonable, "love your neighbor, care for the sick, feed the hungry" parts), so the core rules both are *supposed* to follow are literally the same in many cases. it was a whole Axial Age Ethical Philosophical Revolution thing.
@@b-zar8912 my theory is that Mindfulness Practice is largely about training your mind to resist dualistic, Us/Them thinking, so monks have mostly been somewhat less prone to ingroup/outgroup bias. you don't really "convert to Buddhism," because you can be a Buddhist Christian or Jew or Atheist. for much of its history, most of China was Confucian/Taoist/Buddhist, and Japan today is Buddhist/Shinto/Irreligious.
God never answered my prayers despite the propaganda. Only the prayers of socially normative/wealthy/attractive people. Most of their “answered prayers” involved humans doing things for them, or them doing human things. Or coincidences.
Gamer Tech maybe because people grow up hearing about god working miracles, saving people. Yet when ever they need god the most he's no where to be seen. If gods will will be done than apparently it was his will for every rape, murder, robbery, and genocide in history to happen. He had the power to stop it, to protect the innocent, he chose not to. At best that makes god indifferent to the suffering of the innocent, at worst that makes him a sadist that likes to watch the innocent suffer. The way the world actually works is how it'd work if their was no god, its chaotic neutral, bad things happen to good and bad people, and good things happen good and bad people. The only way things get better or worse is through human action. There's no loving god pulling the strings, we just have each other and frankly random chance.
@@ronb8066 who says god had to create species lol. I figure they made the first cell and let it grow with the laws of space and time that they created.
I’m glad that you called out atheists also. We can certainly elevate our approach in discourse - and that’s the best way to promote rationality and empathy.
I almost left the atheism because of that, then I realized, atheism wasn't supposed to be an homogeneous group and saw the same bullshit I was expecting to avoid. I got out of the atheism later for other reasons, but mostly realizing that's not an testable hypothesis in either direction, so its stupid altogether to spend time on it. I still like to be entertained by the skepticism.
@@monad_tcp Sorry, at risk to sound like I falling into one of those bias, saying "getting out" of atheism makes no sense. Atheism is not a club and certainly is not a religion. It really sounds you are impling something on that line which is another thing that some believers say too often. So, would you like to explain why you phrased it in this weird way?
“Approach your out group with empathy” I love this! Im an athlete found atheist RUclips when I was trying to understand people who had harmed me with their religious beliefs. It was cathartic to hear the “dunking on christians” type rhetoric but the empathetic approach has served me far better since I’ve come around to it.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists that is an absolutely absurd argument. Does elaborate writing mean that Shakespeare is holy scripture? Is Maya Angelou a devine prophet?
As a former Muslim, I can say these cliches are not exclusively used against former Christians, well the want to sin argument was not something my mother insisted on, and she at least seems convinced that I honestly don't believe in God anymore, but other than that, there certainly is a significant amount overlap.
Former muslim??? I urge you to come back to Islam. You will lose all of your family, relatives and muslim friends. You will be shunned by everyone. You shall dwell forever in Hell according to God. The punishment and pain is too much to reject Islam. It mentions hell 93 times in the koran. You MUST return to islam!
@@EpicGamerWinXD69 Seems like you've chosen the painful route. Hell shall be your permanent residence for all eternity according to what God says in his books.
My favorite part is that Hostile Attribution Bias and Defensive Attribution are inherently in conflict with each other in these examples, because one implies you still secretly believe and one implies that you never believed. And then they'll turn around and use both arguments at the same time.
@Goombachi I don’t believe Hostile Attribution Bias or Defensive Attribution implies what you have described even though the phrases you mentioned are used by well intentioned people. Hostile Attribution Bias basically means a tendency to interpret someone’s actions as hostile - like when someone is offended by another trying to warn them about hell. Defensive Attribution is basically a tendency to rationalize that fault is not with themselves - as when people claim they are not guilty because God made them this way.
@@Goombachi it is disgraceful that people inside churches are acting as immorally as people outside churches. They are imposters who claim to know God but continue to practice evil. In some ways I am glad when professing pastors and Christians finally exit. Better than those who stay inside the churches and continue their hypocrisy. “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these. For among them are those who slip into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:1-6
I remember my mom saying "God loves you, even though you chose to be agnostic." But to be fair, I was an agnostic, progressive Christian for a lot of 2020. And there were many times I considered just ditching the faith. It wasn't until late April of this year that I decided to finally actually do it. I mainly stayed in the faith out of fear for basically my whole life. Plus, even if God is real, when I took off the rose colored lenses, I realized that he does not sound like someone I want to serve. He is basically an abusive father that for some reason people refuse to hold accountable. Christianity just seems like Stockholm Syndrome within a large group. Not to mention, I am very prone to gaslighting. That's why the phrases that you mentioned are especially harmful for me. I have a habit of doubting my own motives and reasoning and that can be easily taken advantage of by these people. Also, 11:04 actually reflects my own experience by quite a lot. I have OCD, and I always got the thoughts of "God isn't real" or other intrusive thoughts like that during my adolescence. But my own fear made me blind to the fact that they were actually wakeup calls.
Seeing that Muslim apologist say the exact same thing a Christian apologist would say was eye opening to me. They all really do think the same despite each one believing the other to be false yet when people leave they both hurl the same insults. Wow. I also love how you called out atheists too...Biases are not partial man and we all have to work to get rid of these biases. GREAT VIDEO MAN. LOVE YOUR CONTENT.
My personal "deconstruction" has always been met with complete silence by Christians. Nobody has ever attacked me over my story, but if they did, I'm sure I can reasonably defend my choice to leave the faith when I chose to do so. My personal "deconstruction" story: When I was about 6 or 7, I started reading the Bible for myself. Up to this point I had come to believe, in my childish way, that "god" was some kind of loving father-figure that just wanted everyone to behave nicely. But I became worried quite quickly because the stories in the Bible were confusing, so I kept reading, hoping it would all make sense later. _But then I got to the bit about the ark and the animals ..._ I simply couldn't understand why almost every animal was going to be killed by drowning, plus lots of little human babies. I had two little brothers, and the idea of just watching them drown as they struggled in deep water seemed horrific. And the idea of watching an animal drown was just as bad. _It just didn't make any sense._ Until ... it occurred to me that the stories were just made-up, like the stories about Zeus and Thor and other gods. _That made sense._ So I was an atheist long before I had even heard the word atheist. And no Christian has ever attacked me because of my reasoning, nor tried to explain to me the story of Noah's Ark in a way that makes sense. And, of course, I remain an atheist to this day.
Even when I was a true believer i didn't believe the Noah's ark story lmaoo had a Bible teacher yell at me that actually it was true and literal and boy could I not accept that
Noah is a really interesting one to me. If you look into it, you'll find that many cultures have some version of the Flood Myth, and the one in the bible is a relatively recent iteration of it. There are also worldwide floods recorded in Mesopotamian, Greek, Hindu, Norse, and even Native American and Aboriginal Australian cultures. It seems to me that early humans would experience a flood that destroys their city (their whole personal world) and the stories would be embellished upon over the course of hundreds of years
@@k1rbyguy Early societies had no idea how large the world was. The most distant people they'd ever heard of was probably a few weeks travel by foot. To them the "world" may be a hundred miles. When devastation that could destroy your own area is that complete, it is hard to imagine that a different place may have different weather.
@@k1rbyguy The easy access to water was important for the development of early human settlements. This is why you have stories about such flood events all around the world. It wasn’t because one world-wide flood happened (it would still disprove the literal biblical Noah’s flood if someone survived to record said event in another part of the world who wasn’t Noah and his family), but because human settlements were positioned close to bodies of water and thus susceptible to flood, lightning flood, monsoes, tsunamis and other water-related disasters.
This is because we are human, in life we have the option to believe. When people commit suicide, or are filled with depression, anxiety or hopelessness, they are believing the lies. Like I once did before. Animals go by feelings, we are human.
In a world of “takedowns” and callouts, I appreciate your drive for kindness and collaboration as opposed to hatred and conflict. I love your call to understand and empathize, even if the same courtesy may not be extended back. Keep up the great work, thank you for the inspiration!
I appreciated the encouragement at the end of the video to treat our outgroup with empathy and not to be predictable (i.e. fall victim to the biases described in the video) If I am honest, I am guilty of these outgroup biases way too often in my life. Thanks for the gentle reminder to fight my own biases!
Very well-reasoned video. Being in a family of evangelicals (and living in the southern United States) I have certainly had to deal with my fair share of these implications. I really appreciate it being turned back around on the atheist community as well. We all need reminders not to fall into cognitive biases. None of us are mind readers so if someone tells you why they believe / think / feel a certain way believe them.
As a Christian myself, I agree with what you just said. We do need to be more understanding towards one another, as much as we may not be able to stand the other side.
Drew, as a student at an evangelical university who deconverted while there, I find your videos to be really helpful. Its hard to be the only fish of your kind in the sea. Kinda poetic really, considering I used to suffer the very same thing as an evangelical at a secular high school. Thank you so much.
@@anne8896 A mixture of an intellectual deconstruction of the faith and (though don't think that this means I only left out of emotional turmoil) beliefs that caused uncertainty within me (such as the uncertainty of salvation) that lead to tragic circumstances
Did you happen to attend Liberty U,by any chance? I listened to season 3 of the "Gangster Capitalism" podcast and they go through a lot of the toxic environment and issues there. And of course the joke that is Falwell Jr.
I most definitely left the faith because I just wanted to sin. But wouldn’t sinning be even easier if i stayed in the faith where all my sins would be forgiven as long as i truly believe? I could even commit absolute atrocities and be forgiven for “knowing” my god exists. Yup leaving my faith was all about making my sins easier to commit while also putting all of my decisions; good and bad; all on myself and no one else.
But you’re accountable to no one, only the law in atheism as in there is no one that’s has to forgive you except for the governor. Right now fornicating is legal therefore you need no forgiveness but if you were a Christian you would need forgiveness. Or porn is legal therefore your not a sinner but if your a Christian the holy spirt “nags” you about your sin and you need yo be forgiven.
"Your religion makes a series of claims that are at best unfalsiable and at worst, objectively wrong, but none of them align with history or science." "Oh you just want to sin. Your faith was weak."
I love how you pointed out that group biases affect us all, even other religions and atheists. "They we're never really atheist" made me chuckle. Great video!
I have biases, but you know, there's a good reason behind it. My dad was a religious man and a civil engineer and he was and still is pretty awesome. Why wouldn't I want to be like him?
This video is so we'll structured that even my Christian mom realized her problem when judging people who leave faith. I became an atheist about a year ago, and I've been hearing these statements day after day, by everyone around me. Right now I really wish that you make a video about how to loose fear of hell, I'm ok with not believing, but sometimes I'm still fearful of hell.
@@travisjazzbo3490 because when something has been taught to you from a young age as being fact and often used as a fear tactic to many, even leaving that ideology doesn’t just suddenly undo the fears or psychological damage caused by it.
@@schlamothy Yes... I understand that. But obviously it is not logical to state you are an atheist, and then state you still fear hell. I understand psychological damage of indoctrination, but only LOGIC will bring him out of an irrational fear. You can't state with confidence you are an Atheist, and then say you still fear hell. Something is not honest there, which is what he needs to explore.
@@travisjazzbo3490 so the whole atheist still fearing hell thing..think of it like this..a kid is physically abused as a form of punishment, once they are an adult, away from their abusive parents, they still get fear getting hit, even if the source of the pain is gone, that's how i see religion's threats of eternal damnnation is
When my grandmother was dying (42 years ago) she asked the pastor if heaven was real. He answered "I don't know, but if there is, you are going there". For a lot of people in my country Christianity is so much different than for many people in the USA.
As a Christian, who by all means despite the direction culture has moved still very much practices, I might say that I agree that we should not make assumptions or judge those who leave, we should practice what we preach and be ‘quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry.’ If we all took the humble road and asked questions to those we disagree with, we to would be a lot more likely to be listened to ourselves! I enjoy dialogues with people I disagree with including atheists but the best discussion is not starting with assumptions (either way) but where we start with questions seeking to understand the person who holds a contrary viewpoint than ours and then they likewise ask us questions. If we do not act like Jesus in our discussions, how on earth can we expect others to become his followers?
Atheist here, hi. Agreed, that's one of the things that make this channel so good. Sadly, owning up to our own shortcomings has gone out of fashion. Rather than it revealing common ground, such shows of strength get dunked on as inconsistent or weak-minded. No matter where we stand on the issue of religion, everybody has had a brat from the other camp make them regret trying to meet half way. Of course i've been the brat at times. I feel good about feeling bad about that, if that makes as much sense as it does in my head ^^°
I absolutely agree and it's why I followed this channel.Rebecca Watson is not religion specific but I like their skeptic videos as well, skeptics are held accountable for their bad faith memes and incorrect information as well!
I’m glad he did because his Christian spots verse his Muslims were totally different. Bill Maher does a piece on this. The attitudes of the Muslims towards unbelief was almost hostile. While the other to comments seemed a psychological Analysis as to why one would leave a such obvious truth.
"You cannot see what I see because you see what you see. You cannot know what I know because you know what you know. What I see and what I know cannot be added to what you see and what you know because they are not of the same kind. Neither can it replace what you see and what you know, because that would be to replace you yourself." -Douglas Adams [from: The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy: Mostly Harmless] I think Douglas Adams said it best what it's like to see things from the other side (even from the point of view in being a nonbeliever) not explicitly in this text (possibly in the subtext) but it sure does make the point quite clear in what it's like to no longer see things the way you used to see them. Especially when the person you once were is no longer the same person (in a manner of speaking) that you once were.
The "you were never a real Christian" argument is actually true for me. My family was catholic/Christian but with a pretty distant relationship from the church after I left a catholic school. We prayed on holidays and at funerals. But that was really as close as I ever was with God. Becoming an atheist was actually easy. I met someone in highschool who said they didn't believe in God, and it just kinda hit me that that was a thing. Not believing, it never really occurred to me that not believing in anything was a normal thing to do. Only about an hour of thinking on the subject made me realize I didn't really believe either, I only practiced the traditions.
Basically the same here. I got baptised by a Catholic church but never did my confirmation. I only "pray" when there is a baby born in the family, a wedding, or a funeral. My parents aren't religious either, so I was never told to believe in God. There is the cultural context of where I'm from also. A lot of the population isn't Christian because the church took control of every aspect of our lives and put us in danger of losing our language and culture (I'm from Quebec if you're curious). We basically got tired and tried to distance ourselves, but we still keep some of the things as traditions.
I am an ex-Christian pastor. I debate Christian pastors at different denominations. When I start out with my speech I bring up all the predictable and ridiculous nonsensical apologetic points. Which creates a problem when their arguments get started. Plus it creates confusion for the crowd when they want to ask questions. They seem to be more Apprehensive to go there. I just give them a gift Gallup of things they will say and point out the immoral problems with the Bible.
@@motaman8074 I would suggest going to Matt Dillahunty’s channel and go to Atheist debate. He has a lot of excellent arguments to deconstruct. Are use a lot of them, but most of them I knew before his videos. But I’ve learned a lot on how he breaks it down. There are 30 bullet points of the Bibles immoral actions. Slavery is a class example in Exodus 21. Is it the right thing to own people as property? Of course you will get excuses in backpedaling. Or they tend to make it out to be happy joyful slavery with excellent health benefits excuses. You can shut those down by just using the Bible. Also there are over 20 different bullet points on how the Bible gets science completely wrong. The majority of it is in Genesis even in the first two chapters. Go to the Friendly Atheist channel, and look at his playlist, on how the Bible gets everything wrong. Go to his channel and you will learn a lot how to deconstruct these issues.
I have experienced this level of hatred from former church members simply due to my conversion from the extreme right that is the Southern Baptist Church to the Episcopal Church. I couldn't have made a better decision. Episcopalians welcome all people and all questions- and don't hate people just for being different. God loves all of his children. Thank you for the hard work you do on your channel to expose the ridiculous nature of the modern Evangelical Church. I find that I often agree with atheists more than Christians on the nature of Jesus. Keep calling out hypocrisy and helping people escape from these cults.
Oh love, all of the 3 major Abrahamatic religions stem from the same material and yet they murder each other while they believe the same thing and just call “God” two different words. All Christianity is a cult. The Romans who pushed to create this used this to colonize. I know, as a recovered English Irish Catholic, as someone who has been inside the Vatican and seen all the stolen goods and seen individuals destroyed by the disgustingness that is organized religion-get out. Get OUT. please think for yourself. Your church can’t possibly accept everyone because that would go against actual Christian practices for millennia. I was forced to go to church every week until I was 18. From the time I was 5 and entered the Catholic “school” (pure indoctrination) I fully understood that the adults around me were the worst types of people who constantly belittle and harm others and walk around as if they’re “gods gift to earth” despite truly being some of the least innovative thinkers on this planet. It’s 2021 and people are still believing in outdated fairy tales.
@@eajaros it is tragic how people have distorted the Bible for their personal gain and to exercise authority over others. Is this why you are an atheist?
@@offgridvr8716 This has happened many times. Distorting the Bible to say things it doesn't say. I could say "When the Bible says there is no love greater than for one man to give his life for his friend" I can probably twist it to promote the homosexual agenda but that isn't what it means at all.
Thank you! I was nodding along all smug like this didn't apply to me, and then you started discussing atheist examples. This was so convicting for me. I've made some of those same lazy assumptions about priests and seminary graduates who 'surely know too much to really believe this'. Thinking more rationally is a never ending struggle. I might backslide, but at least for today you've changed my perspective. Thank you again for the awesome content. Your channel means a lot to me.
Raised a catholic, not strict devotees on this level, so when I explained to my mum I wasnt going back to the church she allowed me to choose for myself at 11yrs old.. ❤ love her for that.. A stranger walks into my parents house, the introductions were done, he shook my grandmother's hand, my mother, and two aunties, and then mum introduces me, he tries to hug me, it was soooo icky, I took large steps back from him, I felt so uncomfortable that my well being was in danger.. he was a priest there to discuss my grandfather's funeral.. After he left I told my mum, she said if a priest made me so uncomfortable I didnt have to attend church anymore.. As I grew older I became fully aware of the religious atrocities around the world, by every denomination of faith, throughout history, in the name of God... I have always said I can't suport a religion that has a commandment, "thou shalt not kill" , and then commits genocide.. I escaped a cult...
I remember the irony of being told "it takes years and years of studying to understand scripture" by a someone I went to Christian K-12 with and who knew I went to Bible college when I told them I had deconstructed
@Bean Brewes It actually does take years to understand scripture, or maybe a few months. Depending on how long you can rid yourself of denominational biases. I was 13 when I started to realize not every scripture held some moral truth, but then I hadn't gone to church in four years. But it takes more than understanding the bible to believe in God. It takes faith of which in your case will require evidence.
Thanks for this. I’m becoming a bit more vocal about my deconstruction and I’m running into this for the first time. The “you were never a real Christian” really stings. This is so validating and helps me to have more compassion those who say this stuff.
Having many Christians tell me "god still loves you despite your hate" and "i will pray for you" were probably the most annoying. Many of my old church friends responded similar to this. Along with "Just because you disbelieve doesn't mean you should speak negatively about MY faith" which is understandable but at the same time they were shaming me for leaving Christianity telling me that my faith must have not been strong enough, i didn't believe right and tried to persuade me to come back to the faith. Given i don't talk to those people anymore; but once those responses became the norm to me it is quite difficult to see others wont respond like that.
@@mattr.1887 He doesn’t need you to have faith. But you must have faith to have a relationship with Him. Scripture says that without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Also, I don’t doubt that you were truly saved. It is possible for a Christian to deny Jesus and their salvation and to return to their old lifestyle. The purpose for the book of Hebrews in the Bible was to warn persecuted Christians to not fall away from the faith.
I'm glad you took a look at examples of those biases in atheists, too; it shows that you care about the facts rather than making your side look better at all costs
Why would you leave a religion that forgives you for your sins.. to sin? If you still believe you'll be accountable to your god, then pretending you're a Buddhist isn't going to relieve you of responsibility. In other words, if you believe in an all-knowing sky spy, then there's nowhere to hide.
Yeah. While many of these involve ignoring what the person actually says their reasons are, that one is particularly bad, because it doesn't even make sense as a reason for some hypothetical or fictional example.
I just wanted to say thank you, your videos have changed my life for the better. I changed from a terrible person into someone who I am proud to be and it never would have happened if it weren’t for the chain of events that started with me finding your channel, while I don’t watch your videos as often anymore I have a massive amount of respect for the work you do. To everyone who sees this, have a good day!
@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic “If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18:6
@@onward8231 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." Matthew 16:8-9
@@Rune3100 In other words, if your computer causes you to sin by watching porn, throw it away because it is better to enter heaven without it then enter hell with it.
You are the reason for a secular organization being started on my college campus. A friend and I are high-ranking officers of a different student organization and met to discuss some things about that organization. When we finished, we got to talking because we didn't know each other all that well at the time. We discovered that we are both big fans of your channel, and that led to discussions about trying to start a secular organization. It just got approved today! 😄 Thank you Drew for being inspiring and always having thoughtful and understanding content to foster growth and community
Hugely powerful video. The implications go way beyond religion. I struggle so much with getting pulled into the us vs them mentality in current politics. I'm guilty of all of the biases you listed and it's helped a lot to see it for what it is.
I used to believe that deconstructioners could never have been born again Christians like me. Now that I'm no longer a Christian (in the orthodox sense) people say the same thing about me and now I realise. I fully understood Christianity, I was all the way in it, and yet I ended up deconstructing.
Yeahhh, same here. I mean, when that's all your taught, it does make sense from their perspective. Like there's no way that someone could rationally leave the faith if they legitimately had it right? That seems to be the line of reasoning. But yeah, hope you're doing well post deconstruction
Well the reason I don't believe "I used to be an atheist" stories most of the time is because almost always the person saying that immediately follows it by a story about things they did or felt that only make sense when they actually still believed in a god. "I used to be an atheist" followed by "I just wanted to party all day long, I wanted to be free, I didn't want to believe in a god anymore" for example. Obviously they were just trying to convince themselves they were atheists as an excuse to ignore the expectations of their religious group, but the fact that they saw it as sin, as not _wanting_ to believe in a god, shows they actually did believe in a god (or are making the entire story up for a fake reconversion story). If they _actually_ didn't believe in a god anymore, if they actually _were_ atheist, the whole concept of being an atheist because you just want to sin wouldn't have made any sense to them. It's utterly incoherent to someone who actually doesn't believe in a god, because sin - a concept you don't think is real - can't be an issue or motivation for anything if you don't believe in a god. It's extremely rare for "I used to be an atheist" to be followed by stories that actually are possible for an atheist. But then again, the only "I used to be an atheist" stories I hear are from apologists, so I'm sure the selection of stories isn't representative to begin with.
I have to admit that the only former-atheist confessions I have ever heard are the ones that are brought up specifically to debunk, vilify or otherwise claim the falsity of Atheism. Perhaps it's because I live in the Netherlands, where religion simply isn't as enormous a factor in most people's lives (anymore) - but I've only ever heard former-atheist-apologetics used _in_ apologetics; People who, genuinely or not, feel they have to justify not only their former-atheist state but also their currently-religious state of mind. These confessions and apologia are invariably targeted to an already-religious audience, serving little more purpose than the propagandistic nature of, say, Mr. Kent Hovind's 'Whack-An-Atheist' videos; Where Mr. Hovind poisons the well thoroughly, erects a few strawmen and burns them down, vilifying the likes of Paulogia, Viced Rhino, Sciman Dan, et cetera - and then symbolically hits a Spongebob figure with a toy mallet. 'They' get to feel like something has been achieved, like someone has been Put In Their Place, The World Is Now Right Again, and the arguments made that have been thoroughly vilified and straw-manned can now be dismissed without bothering to listen to them because The Big Man Said They Were Worthless... ... And nothing, nothing whatsoever has actually been achieved, nothing resolved, and Mr. Hovind gets to pretend he's owned another atheist without having ever actually _done_ anything of any worth or value in any way, shape or form whatsoever.
This method of apologetics is courtesy of *C.S. Lewis,* who wrote a book in which he made the absurd claim that he was, _at the same time,_ both an atheist and somebody who "hated God". For anyone who thinks for a moment, his claim of at one time being an atheist clearly isn't true, but nevertheless his tactic is still employed to this day by dishonest Christian apologists.
@@guuspot923 I've heard a few. William Lane Craig as a atheist had existential dread. Seems plausible. David Wood as an atheist was a murdering psychopath. Also seems possible (and well documented). But I agree that many demonstrate that they weren't logically consistent atheists. However, they aren't very logically consistent as theists either so again... plausible.
@Stefan, Guus and Golden, I have to agree with you all, the ex-atheist apologist stories are very very rarely believable but then they are apologists for a reason.
I love the roast at r/Atheism. There are many atheists who are convinced that all or most priests are con men, the same way there are many religious people who are convinced that atheists are evil. As an atheist myself, I always cringe when I see this kind of biases in people who claim themselves as the rational ones.
All priests are telling lies. Whether or not they're well intentioned or not doesn't really matter. Also, the internet is a refuge for Atheists in otherwise hostile environments. It's natural to see people so against theism and religion because the internet is their outlet to vent about the problems of both things.
@Sam A lie is when someone makes a statement that they know to be false or omit information from a statement in an attempt to create a false perception of the subject matter. Lies are by definition matters of intention. It is not a lie to be mistaken or to put forward a possible answer to a question so long as you are clear that it is just a possibility. For example, an audience member wouldn't be lying when they claim to have seen a mentalist read somebody's mind. They'd just be mistaken, tricked by the act and techniques of the mentalist.
i've not many "professional" bible thumpers, ie priest or whatever, but the ones i have met live up to my stereotypes, i have a catholic priest as anext door neighbour, he's the grumpiest person i know and the last person i would "turn to" for any reason. i suppose there are some nice theists out there, but like their boss they hide efficiently.
@@violeth2255 it's no excuse when you work for the master of the universe. especially when you are dictating to rules to others, okay be a "nice preacher" but when you are condemning people to hell, telling them they are sinners, telling them they are immoral, dictating healthcare and lifestyle i hope you can see that they have a moral RESPONSIBILITY to be CORRECT. if you're too lazy to question what you preach then you are dishonest at best.
Simply incredible video. Hits so many serious points without any subjective bend or seasationalism. Presenting ideas and letting them fall together as the viewer sees fit. This is why we watch your videos. Because we've seen people with much more hostile approaches on each side of the argument, but none are as approachable, concice, and convincing.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists Bcuz killing another person accomplishes nothing good in most cases. Killing a mass murderer would be good for humanity. Killing your next door neighbor bcuz he’s doesn’t have the same beliefs as you would be an example of bad for humanity.
@@onward8231 Good is what is good for society. Murder is bad in society that’s why there are laws against murder. Rape and slavery are bad for society that’s why there are laws against them….except in the Bible and Quran where they are advocated and encouraged by God.
You’re something special. I’ve recommended you to many people. I’m a middle-aged atheist who adored “The Four Horsemen of Atheism” in my 20s. I love your approach!
Gotta say, this is why I haven't come out to my old church friends about becoming an atheist this year. I don't want to lose them and I don't want the backlash from the community.
A SUBSTANTIAL percentage of ex-Christians faked it for years. That's why the idea that there are many more still pretending is entirely reasonable; but it's not literally all of them.
I'm agnostic and definitely don't believe in the Abrahamic god as described, but I'm in the same boat with my old church friends. I've enjoyed our times together and appreciate the support and community we all had together, and still even respect a good number of them. Plus, a good chunk of my family. I just don't want to deal with the emotional exhaustion that would be opening up about my leaving the faith... At the very least, I've moved across the country so I don't need to take my beliefs by attending church or bible study groups with them or cause suspicion by not doing those all of a sudden.
As a Christian turned atheist turned spiritualist, I have learned a lot about patience and understanding. At times I consider visiting my local catholic church to see if they would let me give confession, one, because I know the psychology of how that works and it makes sense, and two, to also dive into the mind of the local priest through his interactions with my statements. Not as a troll looking to tear him down as I probably would have in my edgy atheist days but as an outsider interested in bridging faith. I don't know if catholicism is okay with me doing that so I never bothered to try. I appreciate these videos so much. Thanks, Drew!
I am a way better person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. There was so much ingrained hate and anger in the dogma that I have had to unlearn my tendency to group and judge people. Yes I am also a lesbian and therefore sinning in the eyes of my previous social group. But when I left the faith I hadn’t even understood my sexual orientation. I wasn’t given enough information about love or sex to even know what my “butterflies in stomach” equivalent meant. I didn’t know I wanted what they consider wrong so it couldn’t have been a motivation.
Well done. I appreciate this content so much. As an ex Mormon I feel this in my soul the God I was taught is abusive and conditions apply for His acceptance and love.
Just felt to say that I'm still a Christian but I love your content. A lot of Christian's use the Word to act as authority and sadly those people exist everywhere in everything and are horrible. Keep up the good work you do.
I actually sin less as an atheist than I did as a Christian, because I no longer have the get out of jail free card that was divine forgiveness. Now I only have my very real accountability to my fellow human beings and that's a lot harder to face than having to make a confession to god in secret. I don't hate god, but I am bitter towards the betrayal of having lived under a false promise. I wasn't mad at Santa Clause because of gifts I never got, I was mad at being accused of being a bad child by a rich kid who thought they were better than me because they got more gifts. It's not the character I'm mad about, it's all the false hope and wasted years.
@Yvonne Dalton Some people may genuinely find transformation through religion. I do believe that. I've also come to believe that Christianity is not the only religion people can genuinely find personal transformation through. I've met genuinely good people of every religion, and genuinely horrible people as well. The same goes with atheists. My experience was not a good one and I was very deeply damaged by my former faith. I was devout, to be sure, but a lot happened that eventually broke me and my faith in god. It's an extremely sensitive topic so forgive me if I refrain from details. You may be sceptical, but that doesn't change what I went through. You may doubt, but sadly, my personal experience doesn't hinge on the credulity of others. I found personal growth and liberation in valuing others without being told to or under the penalty of divine retribution. I learned to love others out of genuine compassion, no god required. I'm glad that others can be better people through faith, but there are so many people wearing crosses who have hurt and torn down others, even as far as making laws to forbid them equal civil rights. I just have a hard time seeing any one path as the "only way" when so many paths seem to produce some good but mostly mediocre (and a few truly awful) people. All in all, though, this feels a lot like a doubt of my former faith. You don't know me and you're wrong about what you've inferred about me in your reply. It's easy to say "you just didn't do it right" when something that worked for you doesn't work for someone else. It's even easy to assume why and how they "did it wong." I've been guilty of that in my past. In spite of me being a non-believer, I am genuinely far better off that I was when I was in the faith. I found transformation on a path different that yours and that's okay. If your faith makes you a better person then I hope you remain strong in it. For many, unfortunately, it only serves to reinforce their worst values. For others it creates a cycle of hurt and self lothing. For some, it's even worse.
@Yvonne Dalton you need to understand, EVERY religion makes claims like these. Notice how none of them are demonstrable. None of what you're saying is something you can prive to be true. Anyone can claim to be a new creation, and anyone can claim to have the holy spirit just because they want it to be true, and they can't prove it's true and nobody can prove it's false. Its all bullshit. It's in your head.
Christianity has HUGE abusive relationship vibes. If the premise of Jesus was applied to ANY OTHER relationship, every person that knew you would be screaming for you to GET OUT! "I love you. All I want, all I need, is for you to love me back. Only me. I want what's best for you, truly. I know what's best for you, if you'd only trust me. Only me. Don't listen to anyone else; they are trying to take you away from me. Turn your back on your friends, your family, your children if you must... I must come first. I want you to be with me forever. Because you want to be with me forever. Serving me. Forever. But if you question me, if you doubt me, it will not end well for you. I promise. I could change that, true. But I won't. I'd have to allow you to be ruined. Because you had it coming. Love me. Serve me. Worship me. And I will save you. I'm the only one who can."
"If you must." Evil comes in all shapes, bodies and. Well. It can be bound by family. Sometimes a family member can be destructive to your life, and your chance at a kingdom of heaven on earth. You can't say, let's substitute Jesus, if you're not gonna substitute it for Jesus's equivalent. He is love. Forget the word God for a second. Jesus is two things. Love. And Forgiveness. You certainly can't serve two masters. Especially if they're in opposition towards one another. Children can be evil. Parents will be evil. Brothers and sisters. If you must abandon, then you have to. No one must come before love and forgiveness. Don't listen to anyone else, they're trying to take you away from LOVE. Love wants what's best for you, truly. Love knows what's best. If only you trust in it. Jesus is not abusive. He's the furthest thing from.
@@jossuearias3509 the dynamics of that relationship are. Manipulative and abusive, in any other context. Your argument, though, is that, "Jesus is different". Ask any abuse survivor if that sounds familiar.
I have yet to tell my parents I’m agnostic because one time my mom said “I don’t even want to think about my children being agnostic” and I now have a deep fear of telling them because I feel like I will be lesser in their eyes. It’s just hard for me to even think about telling them about it. They’re not even hardcore Christians they’re just your average family. It’s amazing how one sentence could impact me so hard and make me want to not share with them. Here’s hoping I can find the whatever I need to tell them one day.
Based on my personal life experiences and stories from those I've known, my first assumption is "something happened." People usually lose faith because of some event that made them feel like it was wrong. Sometimes it was a whole series of events and finally something was the straw that broke the camel's back. Sometimes it's internal conflict between doctrine and yourself, as was the case for me. Sometimes it's entirely external, like a priest who represents the faith doing or saying something terrible to you, like at least two people I've known. People don't just WANT to sin, they want to be happy, they want to be able to love themselves, to not live in shame or misery, sometimes even being abused by those they were supposed to be able to trust and rely on. And also it's not about how much anyone was taught. I was taught some of that apologetics BS, I even believed it for a few years. But I can't deny the scientific evidence. When I learned I had been taught lies- and not just a few, but a LOT, it became impossible to trust anything they'd taught me. My questioning led to more questions, and now I doubt the Bible was really written by God or is any kind of divine or perfectly historical truth. So how could I call myself a Christian if I don't believe the Bible? I was fairly "well educated" about it, but once lies are uncovered you can't just close your eyes, pretend you saw nothing, and go back into the dark. The truth is that their foundation is shaky, their reasoning is questionable, their evidence is utterly lacking, and much of what they claim today is well known to have been deliberately altered throughout history to fit the agenda of the Church and those in it, and they'd question ME? It's laughable. And now that I've seen how much harm religions and cults can do, how easy they are to subvert and use for evil, and how easily they can cause serious harm and suffering to their members or be used by members to justify doing harm to others and then feel absolutely no guilt about it, I can't ever join one again. Even if I knew what to believe for certain I could never join a church again. I'm done with organized religion. Doesn't matter if it's Christian, Wiccan, or anything else. No one's going to try to get their hooks into my mind again or use me as a pawn in petty little power games. Oh, and I'm also not mad at God. I generally do still believe there's something beyond this life, and something like God behind it all, but I figure that if they wanted to be known by a certain name and for everyone to worship them a certain way and follow certain rituals they'd be much more obvious about it. So since they aren't they have no rational right to get mad when we mess it up, do they? If they get mad anyway, then they aren't worthy of worship. If I'm wrong either I'm going to Hell or whatever equivalent exists along with an awful lot of people or I won't have to worry about it. I love this world, it's think it's amazing and beautiful and intricate. So I have to admire whoever made it to at least some degree- they're the ultimate artist. I figure it's not perfect because if it was nothing we did would matter. We'd have nothing to think or worry about, so we'd never have to strive to achieve anything. We aren't perfect because if we were we'd have no choices to make, so we wouldn't matter. Yes, some people make the wrong choices, and it can cause great pain the themselves and others, but if that weren't possible then nothing would matter, so I have no reason to be angry at God over it. I am annoyed that with all the scientific progress we have made we don't focus more on trying to figure out and fix the issues that cause the worst of it, but that's our problem. I believe in reincarnation. It's convenient for me. My ancestors did. And there's a lot of stories about kids who remember their past lives. So I see no reason not to. And that also makes the bad stuff more bearable because no matter how brief and or short someone's life is I can hold on to the belief that they will have another chance. Lots of people have terrible lives, so the odds aren't good, but you're bound to get lucky from time to time. Might as well enjoy what you can while you can and try to make the world a better place so that everyone in the future- possibly including you again!- has a better chance of a truly good life.
People arguing that atheists are just "mad at God" do not understand we can't be mad at something we do not believe exists. If we are angry at all, it is anger towards people who use faith as a smoke screen for abusing "wrongthinkers". But because they are hiding behind the word of God, they think our anger cannot be aimed at them. It's simply a responsibility shift ingrained in people who were always taught that all their wrongdoings are forgiven and forgotten as long as they exercise their faith fervently.
Every single ex-atheist I've ever met or heard of always and ALWAYS without fail converted because they were in a mentally dark place/were depressed/had some sort of mental health issue and they went to church with a friend/family member, and "felt convicted by God". Coincidentally, they always say that the preacher was saying something like "You're broken, but God can make you whole and love you" and they accept Jesus in front of the whole congregation. Its a formula really because these churches are just emotional manipulators who draw you in promising love and a community when they really just want your attendance and money and to feel morally superior. The "feeling" always comes first. It's never the "evidence"
Basically, the same game every con artist plays when they want something from someone whatever that is. It helps if the potential convert is at a low place in their lives or feels unfulfilled for one reason or another. They want to want it, no matter what 'it' is, if it promises better than what they have now.
I know this is just personal experience, but I live in a very religious country, and I've also never heard a healthy convertion story. It's always desperate people.
Hey Jaash. That is a good Analysis there. To be fair with you thats what the Bibel Speaks about. It is a faith for the poor and the broken hearted. In Times where you are overwhelmed with the complexity of life and the questions of life you are for more open and humble towards ideas like this. But in my consideration it Shows the philosophical and psychological advantages christianity has. I, as a Christian, want to be honest with you. Of course in terms of pure scientific evidence it will be Hard at some Times to stand on Solid ground. But I think the question of the "true" faith should be more than just fact checking. When you were a follower of Christ yourself then you know what good it does to you as a Person. And nerver forget. Maybe we will find out New Things that we dont know today and maybe the Things we know today could be false tomorrow. If there are some mistakes in grammar and pronouciation please have mercy with me. Yours sincere, Lukas.
My deconversion from Hinduism started when I was very young. My family was doing a weekly prayer service called a Puja. We got interrupted by a phonecall (no answering machines back then) that lasted a long time. I quickly grew bored, and decided to finish the prayers by myself. But when I prayed, it felt like I was talking to myself. No one was listening. As if that wasn't bad enough, once the call was done I tried to explain to my parents that I had finished my prayers. Predictably they were having none of it, and dragged me back to repeat those same empty prayers. That planted the subversive idea in my young mind, that all these prayers and devotions were nothing but a dog and pony show. If a god or gods were real, they had no interest. Once planted, the idea could not be stopped. From there on out, prayer was nothing but a rote exercise, saying what mortal people wanted to hear. It was a very long time before I finally shed the last vestiges of my faith. And good riddance. I didn't need it, and am much better off without.
@Jaash Welcome to my problem with organized religion, despite being a Christian. Because they always and I mean ALWAYS go after the emotionally and mentally vulnerable. Hence why, I believe the claims of former atheists. Because as someone who's one the outside of politics and organized religion looking in, I'm aware that much like there are soft minded theists, there are also weak minded atheists vulnerable to the manipulative tactics of shady pastors. Instead of knowing God honestly, they conform to an ill-concieved idea. That's how pastors like Kenneth Copeland and Jessie Duplantis made their fortune, leeching off gullible fools. It bugs me because for atheists there are alternatives like therapy, and religion isn't just about emotion, it's about strengthening the mind, body, and spirit. You have to be informed, and resolute in wanting to grow. And that evidence bit is the part that irks me most of all. This is why such emotionally vulnerable atheists may need to spend more time with people like you. That way they won't be easily swayed since evidence for God's existence is vital for you to believe he exist.
I find a lot of fellow Christians reinforce their beliefs with assumptive evidence: "So and so was brilliant and believed in God so it must be true," "I heard this miraculous thing happened and I believe it and it confirms all my beliefs to be true,". I think that they think it strengthens their faith, but it ultimately weakens it because they're building upon half-truths and assumptions rather than learning to be comfortable with uncertainty and not knowing all the answers. Afterall, Peter said to Jesus after the Bread of Life discourse: "This is hard to swallow. But we believe in you. So we won't abandon you even in our doubt." I appreciate the thoughtful video and wish you all the best.
A great example of this I only recently discovered was Steven Crowder vs Rhett and link. Rhett and Link used to be major evangelical Christians and they decided to share their deconstruction stories on their podcasts, and Steven turned it into multiple videos responding to them and claiming that they are trying to push people away from the church and Christianity which he said he viewed as bad. If he bothered to watch their story, he’d know that that is not the case and their story was very personal and took them each nearly 20 years to get to where they are now which isn’t even athiesm but just agnosticism. Steven’s responses were so predictable and yet still hurtful nonetheless because of how he tried to misconstrue two genuinely kindhearted guys into devious anti religious zealots Love the video man, keep up the good work
My frustration is in trying to have an intelligent conversation about why I believe what I do. I have a Christian friend who says he respects my beliefs, and we have some good conversations. However, it is so evident to me (since I used to be just like him) that he is only talking to me because he is worried about my eternal soul and wants to "win me back." He just cannot accept that my reason for leaving the church has NOTHING to do with someone in the church "hurting my feelings." I try to explain that it is completely intellectual and critical thinking - but he just won't buy it.
I taught religion in a UK secondary school with 35% children of Muslim parents. A group of bright 12 year old Muslim boys approached me after a lesson. 'Why aren't you Muslim sir?' I scratched my head. "Well I don't believe any God exists.". "But you know so much about Islam and everyone we know who know that much believes it. We just thought that if you know that much then you had to believe it." "But boys, I know a lot about Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism. Why would I pick out Islam as the one to believe? In fact it is that fact that I know about all of them that lead me to reject all of them."
I just discovered your channel, and have been going back and watching some of the older ones. This is absolutely one of my favorites. As someone who "deconstructed" almost 40 years ago (at which time there wasn't really a word for it), I have heard all of these responses over the years. What I never realized was that those responses are so universal to other religions and even atheists. Hell, I've probably said one of two of them myself over the years. This video is a real eye-opener. Thanks.
We can try so hard to convince Christians that we didn’t just leave because of anger with or feeling betrayed by God, but in reality, that should be a valid reason to leave. If I don’t want to worship what I perceive to be an abusive God, I won’t.
As an atheist, thank you for including atheists who have the same group biases. Showing that both sides do it makes a fair argument and undercuts the claim that you're just attacking Christianity or Islam (or Christians and Muslims). It's a credit to you.
Engaging an ingroup of established religion with empathy is the most difficult thing to practice. One we are usually facing them as an out group ourselves and met with hostility and bad faith, putting us on a dire defensive. Two, when the societal harm of the out group practice is the observed and pointed out, and still met with defiance of the points it inducts a sense of bad faith, that the members of the ingroup then willfully engage in harmful practice.
Terrific video. Great insights. SO much insight. I am on a journey "reconstructing" my faith. I want a New Christianity. To hear your accepting your own fellow Atheist failings that mirror those of fundamentalists is so cleansing. Love Onward.
What gets me is when Christian's say your sweet and kind and loving but as soon as you say you're an atheist, you can see the negative judgement in their face.
I will definitely need to keep Outgroup Homogeneity Bias in mind. The general information I see about Christians, particularly Southern Baptists, reinforces the stereotype of them all being self righteous, authoritarian jerks. Still, the individual Christians I know are mostly good people who have differing ideas about things. You're right, it is silly to think that Evangelicals are all the same.
Great video, so recognizable! Thank you. Those believers are so harsh, judgemental, and biassed. At the root of all this, I think, is fear. Yoda was right after all: Fear is the path to the dark side, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
1. "You just choose to disbelief, because you just want to sin" This one is truly maddening as it packs so much ridiculous nonsense in a single attack. It's _impossible_ to choose what you belief or don't. And it's _impossible_ for an atheist to want to sin, because if you don't believe a god exist you can't believe sin exists either, you can't intend to do something you don't believe exist. Furthermore if a theist was just pretending to be atheist so they could sin they are flat out insane; you can't be sane and think that pretending to be an atheist would fool the omniscient god you actually do believe in, nor that somehow you wouldn't get send to hell for your sin while the only sin you actually get send to hell for is being an atheist... This one attack alone truly shows how damaging religion can be to someone's ability to think... And that's on top of the outgroup stuff. It's one thing to have a bias to think the outgroup is lying, it's another to give insane excuses for it.
This is really one of your best and most important videos, Drew, maybe you should elaborate some more on this. Amazing how many commenters, including me, recognize this. Maybe I will share some personal things later. It is all fear: believers fear, consciously or unawares, that people that abandon their faith, might have sound reasons to disbelieve.
@L B I must admit, I'm guilty of having that thought gross my mind, but it's for a reason different from the zealots. Many atheists who defect from religion largely because the thought that God exist doesn't sound reasonable to them in the face of science and reason. This is also due to reinforced notions from family and a community. And religion as you know is supposed to be a matter of the heart, and yet from what I've seen for many that's easier said than done. Hell took me nine years to find the line between my emotion and my sense of reason. So whenever I think "you were never a true Christian," I feel I'm insulting someone by implying they were a brainwashed sheep in a cult. Hence why I don't voice such a sentiment.
"You were never a true christian" is self-defeating because it admits that true christians are those unwilling to change their minds based on evidence, experience, reason, logic and personal growth.
My brother told me the same thing and my response was “how on earth could you know that?” It is such a huge assumption based on “real Christians won’t become atheists.”
I would imagine there’s a strong correlation between leaving a behaviour controlling religion and performing a previously prohibited behaviour. Even my atheist friend thought my journey out of my religion was prompted by a desire to perform restricted behaviours. It was liberating to not have my behaviour controlled, but I could have carried on faithfully if I still believed the truth claims of the religion.
Of course there's a strong correlation. Most controlling religions prohibit either leaving or disbelieving in the controlling religion. If so, it is impossible to leave WITHOUT performing a prohibited behaviour.
Some behaviors people really should have under control. I believe that sex shouldn't happen outside of marriage for religious reasons, but there's a lot of secular reasons too. Mostly deadbeat dads that won't pay child support. If the woman can't afford to raise the child on her own, well that means more public assistance is needed and taxes go up. This situation still happens even when sex is within a marriage and a divorce occurs afterward, but when it happens in non-marriages as well, that's just more problems happening that really shouldn't be happening if our culture was more responsible. If it's controlling to hold people accountable for foolish impulsive behaviors, then I'm all for it.
@@theboombody that is to a large part a result of various factors eliminating clans and other larger family groups. Deadbeat dads are more of a problem within marriage than without. Outside of marriage there is less of a contract to violate. And the Abrahamic religious traditions giving all rights and no responsibility to the husband is a big part of the problem. In non-patriarchal religions, the wife has more power, and control of the finances is often in the hands of a woman. And in countries with reasonable maternal/paternal leave and proper childcare systems, the problem is much less prevalent. Unchecked capitalism leading to insufficient wages leads to problems like this. Even Adam Smith advocated for regulations on Capitalism.
@@theboombody thanks for your reply. From my perspective, if you can give a reason for a prohibition on behaviour than we can inspect whether those reasons are good and appropriate and the religious foundation becomes superfluous to reasonableness. Religion however, often restricts behaviour without being reasonable or the reason is given pots hoc and makes spurious claims. Behaviour controlling religions often restrict behaviours that have been shown to have positive effects on human well-being and the attempt to shame and control the behaviour does far more harm than any potential good. What I found leaving a behaviour controlling religion is that it has little to do with prudence and almost everything to do with obedience.
@@Soylent1981 Well of course religion often restricts behavior without being reasonable. That was half of Jesus's message to the synagogue leaders. But what makes you think secularism is immune from that? There's no religion in the US tax code, but there are a lot of tiny restrictive rules in there that often seem to have no purpose. And you're right about unchecked capitalism being a bad thing, but how does sleeping around indiscriminately make any improvements to capitalism?
@WillTell It's a guilt tactic to keep the sheep in line and from exploring the world around them. Starting to see why people think many Christians like myself are cultists. Hence why I try to distance myself from this denominational crap.
Sin is only within a religion, it is a member breaking religious rules. If you're Christian, for example, you can't sin in Judaism. If you're Buddhist you can't sin in Christianity. If you're atheist you can't sin at all.
@@austinlincoln3414 I wouldn't call this a display of intellect, as I'm speaking from experience of growing up exposed to and living with this mentality. Because of the Pokemon Satanic Panic period, I started thinking any media that wasn't bluntly religious was deemed "evil." This effected me when I started creating comics and novels in my teens. I felt incredibly guilty writing a comic issue where angels, demons, humans, and an elf fight team up to fight a demon lord. I was also racked with guilt over writing a story about demon girl seeking eternal salvation, because it could be seen as advocacy for Satanism. I got over this guilt as I got older, but threw myself back in when I sensed my big break was coming. Can't bring myself to tell my parents about my current published works, so I'm torturing myself trying to write a "good Christian story" that won't freak them or any other "devout Christian" out. That's why I'm watching this, as background noise while going through such a labor.
@@thekaxmax I really hate these semantics... Because if atheists don't believe in the concept of sin, then what do you consider immoral actions? And how do you judge what is immoral? But I'm not dumb, as I understand why many atheists reject the concept. It's because many sects define nearly everything as "sin." Like I implied in my reply to Austin Lincoln, I grew up exposed to that mentality. So it makes sense why many atheists reject the idea and label of "sin."
This was wonderful. I'm a devout Christian, and I respect this message completely. Regardless of the truth or falsehood of the claims of why people go or stay in a group, even if they simply didn't want to be bound by that group's rules, etc, to demand that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is precisely the reason that person left is just epistemicaly arrogant, and at the very best, unhelpful to literally everyone. If yiu want to persuade someone, start from where they say they are, and don't assume they're lying or that you know them better than they know themselves. It's frigging irritating, and you guarantee that perosn will be turned off by you. If you're a Christian, you have every reason to listen to that warning, if you literally believe that those who refuse Jesus's pardon will be annihilated or worse, eternally consciously tormented, you better start figuring out how to love them like Jesus did, and real quick. I respect your manner and candor drew. Thanks.
I can understand how believers could make this generalization if they are unable to see things from an outside perspective. It would seem that when someone stops believing, they start doing things that the religion prohibits. However if they took the time to understand, they would see that when you stop caring about the arbitrary rules of a particular faith you are obviously no longer going to see things as wrong by it's dictates. Instead your morality will be governed by other means. Basically, it's not that they stopped believing so that they could "sin". They started "sinning" because they now see those rules are pointless. Think of it this way, if a woman stopped being a Muslim, wouldn't it make sense for her to no longer worry about covering herself with a hijab?
Does this help explain the apologist trope of "I was an atheist until I came across real evidence for (insert deity) now I try to convert others!"? Because that's one that is just as tired.
@@timeshark8727 Usually bring out the bible as proof of God's existence and when you ask them how they know the bible is true, they say because it says so in the bible. Whenever they have to fall back on that one, which they invariably do, they lose. With all the archeology/anthropology that has gone on, you'd think some evidence would have been found by now, yet nothing mentioned in the Bible has ever surfaced.
@@timeshark8727 I'd love if somebody tried to convert people to the old Greek pantheon because Zeus tried to bang his dog. Perfectly in character for the god, too.
Ahhh this guy, Dr. Turek, I attended a presentation in Nashville several years ago and challenged him on the framing of Atheism vs Theism as opposite positive positions, as well the moral absurdity that godly knowledge makes clear justification for the appearance of evil, cruel suffering, etc. Also, a full hour+ prior to speaking, a massive projection of his book was shining on the backdrop.
Great video once again, Drew. This is coming from a Christian. I do think it is imperative for my fellow Christians to come down to the level of others if they really want to show their care.
The first point about wanting to sin - I haven't officially ever stated that I'm an atheist, but I've been looking to become one. Currently though, I'm a muslim, in the sense where I follow the rules (dont eat pork, dont date, the lot). But yes, I do get excited when I think about how I would be able to do these things if I left islam. What I don't like is when you accuse me that I don't believe in a god because I want to do these things. That's absolutely not it. I don't believe for a completely different reason. I obviously will not follow Islamic rules when I became an atheist.
Thankyou. It’s important to be aware of these biased responses - not just to defend ourselves from biased others - but to defend others from our own biases. It’s always worth reminding myself to regard others, especially my outgroup, with compassion and earnest listening.
1:41 "And one can utilize that body of knowledge to understand why certain Christian responses to their outgroup are so common." Now, if we replaced 'Christian' with [fill in the blank] . . .
@@tkps Exactly. I was just wondering if someone was going to identify which group has replaced Christians as the dominant arbiter of values nowadays (i.e., the group that many are now afraid to contradict).
@@paulthompson9668 This is about outgroup bias which every group has, so the very idea of a largest ingroup has who replaced Christianity as the arbiters of moral truth nowadays is nonsensical. I bet some small atheist groups in medieval times believed that the Church was only in it for the money and were immoral liars like some atheists nowadays claim. To get close to answering your question you would have to ask what ingroup is the most influential in society about our morals. And their is no such group that obviously commands much more moral influence than all others. The constant flip-flipping between whichever political parties have the most influence in our governments shows that no singular ideology or group has such influence (at least in the English speaking sphere of the world, IDK a out places outside said sphere). Of course on a local level or in certain groups their can some ingroups that obviously have a dominant hold on morality. But for 'society' as a whole, depending on what you mean by society? There is no singular group that dominantes all others. There is no one group or thing that hands down the moral truth for us. The subject of where and how individuals and societies come to their moral values is a complex and deep one. Any simplistic conclusion one comes to about such a thing is likely, if not outright wrong, extremely oversimplified and not nuanced enough to get a proper understanding.
@@liarwithagun Allow me to introduce you to the woke cartel of Big Tech, the Mainstream Media, the Democratic party, and their corporate panderers (e.g., Procter & Gamble, the NFL, Nike, etc.)
Atheists aren't angry at god. They're angry at christians he pretend to hold the ultimate truth but are willing to critically address the many issues in the church the text
The God's not dead example is so absurd too, they're trying to create a philosopher atheist professor but it's a guy whose actually Christian and just mad at god. You can't be mad at God if you don't believe... One of the many hilarious blunders of that movie series, and shallow apologetics
so remarkably shallow i remember thinking that when i was shown it at my lutheran high school sophomore year.
I know right. Never laughed so hard than hearing a pastor say, "I used to be an atheist. Back then I was so mad at god I threw my bible at the wall every day."
I think it's fair to say he was never an atheist, without committing the no true Scotsman falicy.
The "you can be mad/hate (what ever)
God because don't exist/don't believe"
made zero sense....
People have feeling for fictional character all the time...
I hate palatine...
And I mad with Anakin...
But I'm not believe in them..
This "hating god = atheist" absurdity originated with *C.S. Lewis,* who personally claimed he was once an atheist while simultaneously claiming to hate god.
Lewis' position is nonsense when it's analysed, but Christians prefer to believe that nonsense, rather than try to understand an actual atheist.
I'm not mad at "god".. because HE's NEVER SHOWN UP OR SAID ANYTHING TO ME..
I'm ANGRY at the PEOPLE who spread 🐂💩 LIES and the TRAUMA they impose on young minds
you're born a sinner
as such you're a POS
the only salvation is JESUS
here eat his body and drink his blood you heathen!! get on your KNEES and BEG for forgiveness!!
although.. in my family's eyes.. I'm NEVER worthy of forgiveness because I was born a sinner..
its a vicious cycle of abuse that started with my first black eye.. for being a sinner.. at 1.5 years of age..
these people deserve NOTHING but a JAIL CELL.. except.. their religion protects them and SHUNS the victim.. oh.. and.. me being GAY is the reason they give today.. 58 years later.. cuz.. yeah.. I was a practicing lesbian at 1.5
Lost my faith this month and I can say that the people who say "you were never a Christian" are the only ones that really hurt. 4 years of crying and screaming at the ceiling begging not to have God slip away. Once I finally made my decision it wasn't about my pervious faith and absolutely beliefs. Its about the fact I don't believe anymore.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists How is poetry proof when it is subjective. I mean I have heard better poems
I lost my faith around 2 years ago and it was really hard for me to admit to myself that I was no longer a believer, I prayed daily for God to come back into my heart but he never did and time moved on I came to terms that the feelings I was having for 14 years as a Born again belivere was all in my head, and I was parroting everything I heard from a early age.
*hugs* welcome. I can strongly relate to the years of crying over losing my faith when I lost my faith years ago. I still feel those emotions now when I look back. I got furious with my sister when she accused me of not being really strong in my faith when I was a kid. That was blatantly false, considering my faith was strongest in middle and high school, and I ended up hanging up on my sister in a rage because of it. It's laughable that she gave me that crap considering my sister was addicted to pain pills, drank underage, and performed sexual acts with other girls for the attention of boys when she was in high school (claiming to be Christian at the time), and admitted to me a while back that she only became strong in her faith after getting out of an abusive relationship in undergrad. It still hurts to have my previous faith questioned.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists how does continually reposting advance your position? All it does is minimize you.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists The Oxford University has lasted longer was their building holy
I recently came out as an atheist to a family of Christians, I have heard a lot of these. I have been told to "soul search." Every time I have been told this, I think about the fact that I have been soul searching since I had doubt in my faith about a year ago. I also tend to get the "What do you got to lose?" My thought is always my self identity and me wanting to find my true self as opposed to forcing myself to believe something I don't believe.
Edit and update a year later: I am in a much much better headspace and far more confident in my journey of being an atheist in a community of Christians. I am happy to report that despite their being a couple "serious" arguments with my parents regarding religion over the past year, they have come around to respect my position. I don't know if this will be seen by anyone but I just wanted to update you all on this.
When you come out as a materialist/nihilist, it’s natural for family to respond with care. Atheism provides no basis for morality, truth or metaphysics.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists Quran isn't true because the book I just wrote said it isn't true.
@@MadebyJimbob How do you think we ignore all of the HORRIBLE teachings and commands by God in the Bible and only accept and adopt the GOOD teachings of the Bible, which are far fewer?
It is called SECULAR REASONING. That means PEOPLE define morality.
You should try to read the Bible to understand this statement. If you go to church and only concentrate on the small parts of the Bible that you LIKE and FIND MORALITY in it, that is not representative of the Bible as a whole.
Christians ignore a lot of their Bible and pretend all the evil doesn't exist... They have to, which of course, is just lying to themselves.
Christians are in the uncomfortable position of being far more moral and intelligent than their psychopath God of their Bible that they are told to worship, or burn in hell for eternity... Nice religion
@@MadebyJimbob That's what philosophy is for. You can find morality elsewhere. A faith isn't the only source of morality.
@@MadebyJimbob Morality is really easy to establish.
I want to be happy and live comfortably, simply because it's in my nature to do so. I live in a world with many people in it, and I interact with them every day. They also presumably want to live happily and comfortably.
I could survive on my own in the forest or something; I would have to scavenge for food, build my own shelter, etc. But working together with people lets me live in an apartment, get running water and electricity, and a secure home where I can keep my belongings. When people work together to achieve their goals, we can always get further than if we all set out on our own.
Therefore, I'm encouraged to help people when they need it, because others have helped me get to where I'm at. You don't need religion to establish that you should respect other people
One of my favorite response to "you left because you just want to sin" is "nah, I would have remained Christian if I really wanted to sin because I could just go get forgiven... ten Hail Marys plus five our fathers, then I'm golden." The look on their face... priceless.
That doesn't work like that. You can't get forgiven if willing to repeat the sin. For forgiveness, wanting to change is necessary
@tomasrubioelia6912 I was exaggerating. I went to Catechism, so I know how it works
I know some Christians do seem to live like they can sin and simply ask forgiveness and then carry on doing it. However, that is dishonest. I've met a few Christians like that, but most do not. If a Christian claims to love God and understand that sin cost Jesus his life, how could they possibly choose to go on deliberately sinning. That is not love, that, to my mind, is just using God's forgiveness to live how you want. You can't genuinely repent if you don't turn from the sin you know is wrong. God can not be fooled. He knows genuine repentance.
If I wanted to do quote on quote "evil" things without repercussions I'd absolutely play the role of an american christian. They have a proven track record of defending their in group no matter the accusations put against them. Meanwhile leaving christianity itself takes a lot of courage and a strong will to bear the ridicule hurled at oneself
If leaving christianity to sin is the easy choice out then explain how you're already accusing me of being evil and interacting with me as such and how that is easier than telling you nothing
Furthermore, you don't get to claim christians never harass atheists simply for existing anymore as that's exactly what you are doing right now
I was also gonna say something about how it's weird that you think you can't sin as a christian and that you have to be an atheist... seeing as that's literally why christians believe they have to be forgiven and why jesus died... But I forgot the exact specifics on why this felt important lol
Christians have to live by faith. We can’t just abuse God’s grace.
I choose not to believe in dragons simply because I want to live a life free of the fear of dragons. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with the complete lack of evidence for the existence of dragons.
I need a T-shirt with this on it.
@@FatBaldGuy60 agreed, me too
Hehe.
Hmm, sorry for my pedantism, but so you *choose not to believe* in dragons, or have no choice but not believe due to lack of strong or sufficient evidence for their existence?
@@tempestive1 it’s a tongue-in-cheek poke at folks who claim that atheists simply choose not to believe in a god (typically, the Abrahamic version) because they like to sin and don’t want to think about being held accountable. These folks completely discount the lack of compelling evidence to believe in such a god in the first place.
Never fails, I always get the "why do you hate god."
And " you say this because you want to sin "
@@stefanorinieri4656 I personally have not been told that one. Just repeatedly the hating god crap. I just tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens on religion poisons everything.
"Why do you not?"
This post made by dystheist gang.
I would say: any intelligent moral seeking person would. I would rather say:why do you love this psychopath?
They are psychologically projecting their own insecurities onto you. A good response would be "Do you hate other gods? Allah? Dark Age Jesus? I love Deists more than any other religious faction, do you?" Since Deism is singularly about God only without much baggage.
"your friend became a Buddhist because she wanted to sin" is so funny to me, because Buddhism is a pretty rigorously ethical system of thought. that isn't to say that i agree with every aspect of every sect's ethical interpretations, but the broad discourse of how to minimize suffering is baked into it from the start. if anything can be said to be a universal Buddhist ethical principle, it's Ahimsa, non-violence, not intentionally causing suffering to any sentient being.
The argument becomes more ridiculous when it's used against ANOTHER religion with similar rules. It was already ineffective against atheism but this is a new low.
@@kevinquiroz5384 what's funnier is that the followers of Buddhism are way more peaceful than Christians and they don't go around trying to convert everyone like Christianity and Islam do.
@@kevinquiroz5384 it's theorized that Buddhist missionaries to Syria, Egypt, and Greece around 250 BC may have introduced some of the ethical principles that would form Christianity (the more reasonable, "love your neighbor, care for the sick, feed the hungry" parts), so the core rules both are *supposed* to follow are literally the same in many cases. it was a whole Axial Age Ethical Philosophical Revolution thing.
@@b-zar8912 my theory is that Mindfulness Practice is largely about training your mind to resist dualistic, Us/Them thinking, so monks have mostly been somewhat less prone to ingroup/outgroup bias. you don't really "convert to Buddhism," because you can be a Buddhist Christian or Jew or Atheist. for much of its history, most of China was Confucian/Taoist/Buddhist, and Japan today is Buddhist/Shinto/Irreligious.
Yes - but grammar?
?
What I love about Drew, more than any other atheist youtuber is that he is willing to call out atheists as well. He is incredibly honest with himself.
Hypocrisy and irrationality are the only true enemies of all of us.
@@robertashton8069 Praise be unto Fauci 🕺💃
ruclips.net/video/S7t1cYSMuWQ/видео.html
@omegamart employee #0 You dare question the SCIENE???? 😳😳😳👩🔬🔭🧬🧪🔭👩🔬🧬👩💻⚗️
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@omegamart employee #0 Yes, the revolution is going well! 😃🍻🕺💃🧬🇨🇳⚒️👩🔬
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@omegamart employee #0 Dam bro that crazy! In other breaking broken news; the sky is blue today 😃🧬💃⚒️🧬🕺🧪🇨🇳🍻👏👏👏
Ironically, I used to be angry at god back when i was a christian. As an atheist now, I only see him as a mythological being.
Yup
God never answered my prayers despite the propaganda. Only the prayers of socially normative/wealthy/attractive people. Most of their “answered prayers” involved humans doing things for them, or them doing human things. Or coincidences.
@@BiblicalTeachings God chose not to stop people abusing you.
@@BiblicalTeachings God let that happen if he exists, as well as all the natural disasters. Disease.....death. Predation. The cruelty of the universe.
Gamer Tech maybe because people grow up hearing about god working miracles, saving people. Yet when ever they need god the most he's no where to be seen. If gods will will be done than apparently it was his will for every rape, murder, robbery, and genocide in history to happen. He had the power to stop it, to protect the innocent, he chose not to. At best that makes god indifferent to the suffering of the innocent, at worst that makes him a sadist that likes to watch the innocent suffer. The way the world actually works is how it'd work if their was no god, its chaotic neutral, bad things happen to good and bad people, and good things happen good and bad people. The only way things get better or worse is through human action. There's no loving god pulling the strings, we just have each other and frankly random chance.
Drew, your ability to remain evenhanded and to approach such infuriating responses with empathy is inspiring
Indeed, Beetle. Indeed
And, as the biologist Haldane said, if a god exists, he foremost loves beetles, because he made so many species of those (at least 300,000).
@@ronb8066 who says god had to create species lol. I figure they made the first cell and let it grow with the laws of space and time that they created.
@@ronb8066 This cracks me up! Imagining God like, "idk why you humans are so obsessed with me... Clearly I'm all about the insects"
@@ikumquats6579 he's not being wholly literal dude. Even *I* can see that.
I’m glad that you called out atheists also. We can certainly elevate our approach in discourse - and that’s the best way to promote rationality and empathy.
I almost left the atheism because of that, then I realized, atheism wasn't supposed to be an homogeneous group and saw the same bullshit I was expecting to avoid. I got out of the atheism later for other reasons, but mostly realizing that's not an testable hypothesis in either direction, so its stupid altogether to spend time on it.
I still like to be entertained by the skepticism.
@@monad_tcp Sorry, at risk to sound like I falling into one of those bias, saying "getting out" of atheism makes no sense.
Atheism is not a club and certainly is not a religion. It really sounds you are impling something on that line which is another thing that some believers say too often.
So, would you like to explain why you phrased it in this weird way?
@@monad_tcp how does one "get out of atheism?" Are you saying your belief in a deity is predicated on a dislike of some atheist community or another?
What exactly is the rationality of atheism? Why do you believe people should (moral impetus?) be empathetic?
@@jessebryant9233 Two words. Human decency. Look into it. God certainly didn't come up with it.
“Approach your out group with empathy” I love this! Im an athlete found atheist RUclips when I was trying to understand people who had harmed me with their religious beliefs. It was cathartic to hear the “dunking on christians” type rhetoric but the empathetic approach has served me far better since I’ve come around to it.
Know Darkmatter2525 and other good Atheist-RUclipsrs?
Yeah, worth checking out is all i say here.
"you're lashing out at Christians by sharing your story"
Same vibe as "you're infringing on my safety as a straight person by coming out as LGBT".
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists that is an absolutely absurd argument. Does elaborate writing mean that Shakespeare is holy scripture? Is Maya Angelou a devine prophet?
@@DaveCM I knew it!
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists You heard it here folks. The Quran invented genre bending in poetry.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists Anyone that spent a couple years studying writing could imitate the way the Quran was written.
Dafuq does The second part even mean how can coming out as lgbt infringe on the safety of straight people. Unless they are in prison 😂😂😂
As a former Muslim, I can say these cliches are not exclusively used against former Christians, well the want to sin argument was not something my mother insisted on, and she at least seems convinced that I honestly don't believe in God anymore, but other than that, there certainly is a significant amount overlap.
Former muslim??? I urge you to come back to Islam. You will lose all of your family, relatives and muslim friends. You will be shunned by everyone. You shall dwell forever in Hell according to God. The punishment and pain is too much to reject Islam. It mentions hell 93 times in the koran. You MUST return to islam!
@@pazuzuxx If hell is where all the scientific guys are, they've invented air conditioning down there by now. I'll be fine.
@@EpicGamerWinXD69 Seems like you've chosen the painful route. Hell shall be your permanent residence for all eternity according to what God says in his books.
@@pazuzuxx Permanent residence eh? Great! Looks like I won't have to pay rent when that happens!
@@pazuzuxx A God doesn't need books to pass his message. He can do better
My favorite part is that Hostile Attribution Bias and Defensive Attribution are inherently in conflict with each other in these examples, because one implies you still secretly believe and one implies that you never believed. And then they'll turn around and use both arguments at the same time.
It’s a classic example of “This says more about you than me.” They are projectiving their desperate attempt to cling to their beliefs onto you.
Bravo!
@Goombachi I don’t believe Hostile Attribution Bias or Defensive Attribution implies what you have described even though the phrases you mentioned are used by well intentioned people. Hostile Attribution Bias basically means a tendency to interpret someone’s actions as hostile - like when someone is offended by another trying to warn them about hell. Defensive Attribution is basically a tendency to rationalize that fault is not with themselves - as when people claim they are not guilty because God made them this way.
@@offgridvr8716 Yeah, you have to look at the examples cited in the video for my comment to make sense.
@@Goombachi it is disgraceful that people inside churches are acting as immorally as people outside churches. They are imposters who claim to know God but continue to practice evil. In some ways I am glad when professing pastors and Christians finally exit. Better than those who stay inside the churches and continue their hypocrisy.
“But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these. For among them are those who slip into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:1-6
I remember my mom saying "God loves you, even though you chose to be agnostic." But to be fair, I was an agnostic, progressive Christian for a lot of 2020. And there were many times I considered just ditching the faith. It wasn't until late April of this year that I decided to finally actually do it. I mainly stayed in the faith out of fear for basically my whole life.
Plus, even if God is real, when I took off the rose colored lenses, I realized that he does not sound like someone I want to serve. He is basically an abusive father that for some reason people refuse to hold accountable. Christianity just seems like Stockholm Syndrome within a large group.
Not to mention, I am very prone to gaslighting. That's why the phrases that you mentioned are especially harmful for me. I have a habit of doubting my own motives and reasoning and that can be easily taken advantage of by these people.
Also, 11:04 actually reflects my own experience by quite a lot. I have OCD, and I always got the thoughts of "God isn't real" or other intrusive thoughts like that during my adolescence. But my own fear made me blind to the fact that they were actually wakeup calls.
Seeing that Muslim apologist say the exact same thing a Christian apologist would say was eye opening to me. They all really do think the same despite each one believing the other to be false yet when people leave they both hurl the same insults. Wow.
I also love how you called out atheists too...Biases are not partial man and we all have to work to get rid of these biases. GREAT VIDEO MAN. LOVE YOUR CONTENT.
Wow, dude, deal with your massive overgeneralisation "they all really do think the same" - and bigotry. Outgrow fundamentalism.
My personal "deconstruction" has always been met with complete silence by Christians.
Nobody has ever attacked me over my story, but if they did, I'm sure I can reasonably defend my choice to leave the faith when I chose to do so.
My personal "deconstruction" story:
When I was about 6 or 7, I started reading the Bible for myself. Up to this point I had come to believe, in my childish way, that "god" was some kind of loving father-figure that just wanted everyone to behave nicely.
But I became worried quite quickly because the stories in the Bible were confusing, so I kept reading, hoping it would all make sense later.
_But then I got to the bit about the ark and the animals ..._
I simply couldn't understand why almost every animal was going to be killed by drowning, plus lots of little human babies.
I had two little brothers, and the idea of just watching them drown as they struggled in deep water seemed horrific.
And the idea of watching an animal drown was just as bad.
_It just didn't make any sense._
Until ... it occurred to me that the stories were just made-up, like the stories about Zeus and Thor and other gods. _That made sense._
So I was an atheist long before I had even heard the word atheist.
And no Christian has ever attacked me because of my reasoning, nor tried to explain to me the story of Noah's Ark in a way that makes sense.
And, of course, I remain an atheist to this day.
Even when I was a true believer i didn't believe the Noah's ark story lmaoo had a Bible teacher yell at me that actually it was true and literal and boy could I not accept that
Noah is a really interesting one to me. If you look into it, you'll find that many cultures have some version of the Flood Myth, and the one in the bible is a relatively recent iteration of it. There are also worldwide floods recorded in Mesopotamian, Greek, Hindu, Norse, and even Native American and Aboriginal Australian cultures.
It seems to me that early humans would experience a flood that destroys their city (their whole personal world) and the stories would be embellished upon over the course of hundreds of years
@@k1rbyguy Early societies had no idea how large the world was. The most distant people they'd ever heard of was probably a few weeks travel by foot. To them the "world" may be a hundred miles. When devastation that could destroy your own area is that complete, it is hard to imagine that a different place may have different weather.
@@k1rbyguy The easy access to water was important for the development of early human settlements. This is why you have stories about such flood events all around the world. It wasn’t because one world-wide flood happened (it would still disprove the literal biblical Noah’s flood if someone survived to record said event in another part of the world who wasn’t Noah and his family), but because human settlements were positioned close to bodies of water and thus susceptible to flood, lightning flood, monsoes, tsunamis and other water-related disasters.
This is because we are human, in life we have the option to believe. When people commit suicide, or are filled with depression, anxiety or hopelessness, they are believing the lies. Like I once did before. Animals go by feelings, we are human.
In a world of “takedowns” and callouts, I appreciate your drive for kindness and collaboration as opposed to hatred and conflict. I love your call to understand and empathize, even if the same courtesy may not be extended back. Keep up the great work, thank you for the inspiration!
WWJD turn the other cheek. As an atheist, he’s a better Christian than they are.
I appreciated the encouragement at the end of the video to treat our outgroup with empathy and not to be predictable (i.e. fall victim to the biases described in the video) If I am honest, I am guilty of these outgroup biases way too often in my life. Thanks for the gentle reminder to fight my own biases!
I wish there were more RUclipsrs like Drew.
Very well-reasoned video. Being in a family of evangelicals (and living in the southern United States) I have certainly had to deal with my fair share of these implications. I really appreciate it being turned back around on the atheist community as well. We all need reminders not to fall into cognitive biases. None of us are mind readers so if someone tells you why they believe / think / feel a certain way believe them.
As a Christian myself, I agree with what you just said. We do need to be more understanding towards one another, as much as we may not be able to stand the other side.
I don’t even tell my family
@@jamesoneil1388
“Celestial North Korea”,
Lol, that’s sad and funny,
also a little bit scary.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists
That’s sad.
I am so sorry.
Drew, as a student at an evangelical university who deconverted while there, I find your videos to be really helpful. Its hard to be the only fish of your kind in the sea.
Kinda poetic really, considering I used to suffer the very same thing as an evangelical at a secular high school. Thank you so much.
Why did you deconvert?
@@anne8896 A mixture of an intellectual deconstruction of the faith and (though don't think that this means I only left out of emotional turmoil) beliefs that caused uncertainty within me (such as the uncertainty of salvation) that lead to tragic circumstances
@@thetheatreguy9853 okay thank you:)
Did you happen to attend Liberty U,by any chance? I listened to season 3 of the "Gangster Capitalism" podcast and they go through a lot of the toxic environment and issues there. And of course the joke that is Falwell Jr.
I just dropped out of my Christian College because of my deconstruction as well, you are definitely not alone :):)
I most definitely left the faith because I just wanted to sin. But wouldn’t sinning be even easier if i stayed in the faith where all my sins would be forgiven as long as i truly believe? I could even commit absolute atrocities and be forgiven for “knowing” my god exists. Yup leaving my faith was all about making my sins easier to commit while also putting all of my decisions; good and bad; all on myself and no one else.
Except the very concept of "sin" is fictional ;)
But you’re accountable to no one, only the law in atheism as in there is no one that’s has to forgive you except for the governor. Right now fornicating is legal therefore you need no forgiveness but if you were a Christian you would need forgiveness. Or porn is legal therefore your not a sinner but if your a Christian the holy spirt “nags” you about your sin and you need yo be forgiven.
Firgiveness needa repentance, so no its not like that.
Your sins would only be forgiven if you’d turn away from them meaning stop sinning
You gotta sin, otherwise Jesus died for nothing. Ha! (Not my joke but I love it)
I'm a christian, yet I enjoy your videos so much. You give so much to think about, and you do it so humbly and respectfully. Thank you
May I ask, what is the main reason you're a Christian?
Does he believe Christian Apologists are bigoted and their education dubious? Isn’t that a form an outright bias?
"Your religion makes a series of claims that are at best unfalsiable and at worst, objectively wrong, but none of them align with history or science."
"Oh you just want to sin. Your faith was weak."
Oh no, not another assumption that religion is about claims, or that religion is in conflict with science. Outgrow fundamentalism.
I love how you pointed out that group biases affect us all, even other religions and atheists. "They we're never really atheist" made me chuckle. Great video!
Well? Really us all? I aint so sure about that.
@@slevinchannel7589 I think your group biases are telling you that. 😎
@@captainsunshine918 Dude... if you had not done this Emoji, it would have still not been 'cool', but it would at least been a semi-good...
I have biases, but you know, there's a good reason behind it. My dad was a religious man and a civil engineer and he was and still is pretty awesome. Why wouldn't I want to be like him?
This video is so we'll structured that even my Christian mom realized her problem when judging people who leave faith. I became an atheist about a year ago, and I've been hearing these statements day after day, by everyone around me. Right now I really wish that you make a video about how to loose fear of hell, I'm ok with not believing, but sometimes I'm still fearful of hell.
If you don't believe in a particular faith, and that faith invented the concept of hell, why would you fear hell?
@@travisjazzbo3490 because when something has been taught to you from a young age as being fact and often used as a fear tactic to many, even leaving that ideology doesn’t just suddenly undo the fears or psychological damage caused by it.
@@schlamothy Yes... I understand that. But obviously it is not logical to state you are an atheist, and then state you still fear hell.
I understand psychological damage of indoctrination, but only LOGIC will bring him out of an irrational fear.
You can't state with confidence you are an Atheist, and then say you still fear hell. Something is not honest there, which is what he needs to explore.
@@travisjazzbo3490 so the whole atheist still fearing hell thing..think of it like this..a kid is physically abused as a form of punishment, once they are an adult, away from their abusive parents, they still get fear getting hit, even if the source of the pain is gone, that's how i see religion's threats of eternal damnnation is
@Prisca K - Yep, that's the story I was told, too. Emphasis on "story".
When my grandmother was dying (42 years ago) she asked the pastor if heaven was real. He answered "I don't know, but if there is, you are going there".
For a lot of people in my country Christianity is so much different than for many people in the USA.
What country do you live in?
As a Christian, who by all means despite the direction culture has moved still very much practices, I might say that I agree that we should not make assumptions or judge those who leave, we should practice what we preach and be ‘quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry.’ If we all took the humble road and asked questions to those we disagree with, we to would be a lot more likely to be listened to ourselves! I enjoy dialogues with people I disagree with including atheists but the best discussion is not starting with assumptions (either way) but where we start with questions seeking to understand the person who holds a contrary viewpoint than ours and then they likewise ask us questions. If we do not act like Jesus in our discussions, how on earth can we expect others to become his followers?
I was about to say “Hold on there, GMS! Atheists do the same thing!” Then he shows that atheists indeed do the same thing. Good for him.
I wonder if you should be asking yourself why it bothers you that he didn't, if he didn't.
@@tkps
Why do you wonder that? Isn’t it a good thing to see a fault in yourself that you see in others?
Atheist here, hi.
Agreed, that's one of the things that make this channel so good. Sadly, owning up to our own shortcomings has gone out of fashion. Rather than it revealing common ground, such shows of strength get dunked on as inconsistent or weak-minded. No matter where we stand on the issue of religion, everybody has had a brat from the other camp make them regret trying to meet half way. Of course i've been the brat at times. I feel good about feeling bad about that, if that makes as much sense as it does in my head ^^°
I absolutely agree and it's why I followed this channel.Rebecca Watson is not religion specific but I like their skeptic videos as well, skeptics are held accountable for their bad faith memes and incorrect information as well!
I’m glad he did because his Christian spots verse his Muslims were totally different. Bill Maher does a piece on this. The attitudes of the Muslims towards unbelief was almost hostile. While the other to comments seemed a psychological Analysis as to why one would leave a such obvious truth.
"You cannot see what I see because you see what you see. You cannot know what I know because you know what you know. What I see and what I know cannot be added to what you see and what you know because they are not of the same kind. Neither can it replace what you see and what you know, because that would be to replace you yourself."
-Douglas Adams [from: The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy: Mostly Harmless]
I think Douglas Adams said it best what it's like to see things from the other side (even from the point of view in being a nonbeliever) not explicitly in this text (possibly in the subtext) but it sure does make the point quite clear in what it's like to no longer see things the way you used to see them. Especially when the person you once were is no longer the same person (in a manner of speaking) that you once were.
a good explanation of "no free will".
@@HarryNicNicholas Actually, I would call it a good explanation "of free will".
Great quote, I’ve been getting into some of the older sci-fi franchises lately, I need to add The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy to the list.
The "you were never a real Christian" argument is actually true for me. My family was catholic/Christian but with a pretty distant relationship from the church after I left a catholic school. We prayed on holidays and at funerals. But that was really as close as I ever was with God. Becoming an atheist was actually easy. I met someone in highschool who said they didn't believe in God, and it just kinda hit me that that was a thing. Not believing, it never really occurred to me that not believing in anything was a normal thing to do. Only about an hour of thinking on the subject made me realize I didn't really believe either, I only practiced the traditions.
Basically the same here. I got baptised by a Catholic church but never did my confirmation. I only "pray" when there is a baby born in the family, a wedding, or a funeral.
My parents aren't religious either, so I was never told to believe in God.
There is the cultural context of where I'm from also. A lot of the population isn't Christian because the church took control of every aspect of our lives and put us in danger of losing our language and culture (I'm from Quebec if you're curious). We basically got tired and tried to distance ourselves, but we still keep some of the things as traditions.
I am an ex-Christian pastor. I debate Christian pastors at different denominations. When I start out with my speech I bring up all the predictable and ridiculous nonsensical apologetic points. Which creates a problem when their arguments get started. Plus it creates confusion for the crowd when they want to ask questions. They seem to be more Apprehensive to go there. I just give them a gift Gallup of things they will say and point out the immoral problems with the Bible.
Would love to hear you speak
Teach me some I want to use them on someone
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists Jiambie hio nonsense kuna nafasi kubwa hapa
Do you record and publish these debates anywhere? I'd love to hear some!
@@motaman8074 I would suggest going to Matt Dillahunty’s channel and go to Atheist debate. He has a lot of excellent arguments to deconstruct. Are use a lot of them, but most of them I knew before his videos. But I’ve learned a lot on how he breaks it down.
There are 30 bullet points of the Bibles immoral actions. Slavery is a class example in Exodus 21. Is it the right thing to own people as property? Of course you will get excuses in backpedaling. Or they tend to make it out to be happy joyful slavery with excellent health benefits excuses. You can shut those down by just using the Bible.
Also there are over 20 different bullet points on how the Bible gets science completely wrong. The majority of it is in Genesis even in the first two chapters.
Go to the Friendly Atheist channel, and look at his playlist, on how the Bible gets everything wrong. Go to his channel and you will learn a lot how to deconstruct these issues.
I have experienced this level of hatred from former church members simply due to my conversion from the extreme right that is the Southern Baptist Church to the Episcopal Church. I couldn't have made a better decision. Episcopalians welcome all people and all questions- and don't hate people just for being different. God loves all of his children.
Thank you for the hard work you do on your channel to expose the ridiculous nature of the modern Evangelical Church. I find that I often agree with atheists more than Christians on the nature of Jesus. Keep calling out hypocrisy and helping people escape from these cults.
Oh love, all of the 3 major Abrahamatic religions stem from the same material and yet they murder each other while they believe the same thing and just call “God” two different words. All Christianity is a cult. The Romans who pushed to create this used this to colonize. I know, as a recovered English Irish Catholic, as someone who has been inside the Vatican and seen all the stolen goods and seen individuals destroyed by the disgustingness that is organized religion-get out. Get OUT. please think for yourself. Your church can’t possibly accept everyone because that would go against actual Christian practices for millennia. I was forced to go to church every week until I was 18. From the time I was 5 and entered the Catholic “school” (pure indoctrination) I fully understood that the adults around me were the worst types of people who constantly belittle and harm others and walk around as if they’re “gods gift to earth” despite truly being some of the least innovative thinkers on this planet. It’s 2021 and people are still believing in outdated fairy tales.
@@eajaros it is tragic how people have distorted the Bible for their personal gain and to exercise authority over others. Is this why you are an atheist?
@Narrare how did that baptist church express hatred towards people who were different?
@@offgridvr8716 This has happened many times. Distorting the Bible to say things it doesn't say. I could say "When the Bible says there is no love greater than for one man to give his life for his friend" I can probably twist it to promote the homosexual agenda but that isn't what it means at all.
Thank you! I was nodding along all smug like this didn't apply to me, and then you started discussing atheist examples. This was so convicting for me. I've made some of those same lazy assumptions about priests and seminary graduates who 'surely know too much to really believe this'. Thinking more rationally is a never ending struggle. I might backslide, but at least for today you've changed my perspective. Thank you again for the awesome content. Your channel means a lot to me.
Raised a catholic, not strict devotees on this level, so when I explained to my mum I wasnt going back to the church she allowed me to choose for myself at 11yrs old..
❤ love her for that..
A stranger walks into my parents house, the introductions were done, he shook my grandmother's hand, my mother, and two aunties, and then mum introduces me, he tries to hug me, it was soooo icky, I took large steps back from him, I felt so uncomfortable that my well being was in danger.. he was a priest there to discuss my grandfather's funeral..
After he left I told my mum,
she said if a priest made me so uncomfortable I didnt have to attend church anymore..
As I grew older I became fully aware of the religious atrocities around the world, by every denomination of faith, throughout history, in the name of God...
I have always said I can't suport a religion that has a commandment, "thou shalt not kill" , and then commits genocide..
I escaped a cult...
I love mum 2
I remember the irony of being told "it takes years and years of studying to understand scripture" by a someone I went to Christian K-12 with and who knew I went to Bible college when I told them I had deconstructed
@Bean Brewes
It actually does take years to understand scripture, or maybe a few months. Depending on how long you can rid yourself of denominational biases. I was 13 when I started to realize not every scripture held some moral truth, but then I hadn't gone to church in four years.
But it takes more than understanding the bible to believe in God. It takes faith of which in your case will require evidence.
Thanks for this. I’m becoming a bit more vocal about my deconstruction and I’m running into this for the first time. The “you were never a real Christian” really stings. This is so validating and helps me to have more compassion those who say this stuff.
Having many Christians tell me "god still loves you despite your hate" and "i will pray for you" were probably the most annoying. Many of my old church friends responded similar to this. Along with "Just because you disbelieve doesn't mean you should speak negatively about MY faith" which is understandable but at the same time they were shaming me for leaving Christianity telling me that my faith must have not been strong enough, i didn't believe right and tried to persuade me to come back to the faith. Given i don't talk to those people anymore; but once those responses became the norm to me it is quite difficult to see others wont respond like that.
It's funny to think that God is codependent that he would even need you to have "faith".
Yeah its pretty condescending
@@mattr.1887 He doesn’t need you to have faith. But you must have faith to have a relationship with Him. Scripture says that without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Also, I don’t doubt that you were truly saved. It is possible for a Christian to deny Jesus and their salvation and to return to their old lifestyle. The purpose for the book of Hebrews in the Bible was to warn persecuted Christians to not fall away from the faith.
They argue that people leave religion because of their emotions but every reason they have to believe is purely emotional.
The hypocrisy.
New statistics show: Atheism on the Rise.
I'm glad you took a look at examples of those biases in atheists, too; it shows that you care about the facts rather than making your side look better at all costs
Why would you leave a religion that forgives you for your sins.. to sin? If you still believe you'll be accountable to your god, then pretending you're a Buddhist isn't going to relieve you of responsibility. In other words, if you believe in an all-knowing sky spy, then there's nowhere to hide.
@Deborah Downs asked "Why would you leave a religion that forgives you for your sins.. to sin?" An excellent question.
Yeah. While many of these involve ignoring what the person actually says their reasons are, that one is particularly bad, because it doesn't even make sense as a reason for some hypothetical or fictional example.
I am SO GLAD I was never in a faith in the first place. I find the mindset so bizarre.
Respect for calling out everone making that rediculous argument, even atheist
I just wanted to say thank you, your videos have changed my life for the better.
I changed from a terrible person into someone who I am proud to be and it never would have happened if it weren’t for the chain of events that started with me finding your channel, while I don’t watch your videos as often anymore I have a massive amount of respect for the work you do.
To everyone who sees this, have a good day!
Wow, that’s incredible! Thank you so much!
@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic
“If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matthew 18:6
@@onward8231 we already know that you like to use death treats to scare people, it just isn't too effective when you do it so often
@@onward8231 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Matthew 16:8-9
@@Rune3100 In other words, if your computer causes you to sin by watching porn, throw it away because it is better to enter heaven without it then enter hell with it.
You are the reason for a secular organization being started on my college campus. A friend and I are high-ranking officers of a different student organization and met to discuss some things about that organization. When we finished, we got to talking because we didn't know each other all that well at the time. We discovered that we are both big fans of your channel, and that led to discussions about trying to start a secular organization. It just got approved today! 😄 Thank you Drew for being inspiring and always having thoughtful and understanding content to foster growth and community
Hugely powerful video. The implications go way beyond religion. I struggle so much with getting pulled into the us vs them mentality in current politics. I'm guilty of all of the biases you listed and it's helped a lot to see it for what it is.
I used to believe that deconstructioners could never have been born again Christians like me. Now that I'm no longer a Christian (in the orthodox sense) people say the same thing about me and now I realise. I fully understood Christianity, I was all the way in it, and yet I ended up deconstructing.
Yeahhh, same here. I mean, when that's all your taught, it does make sense from their perspective. Like there's no way that someone could rationally leave the faith if they legitimately had it right? That seems to be the line of reasoning. But yeah, hope you're doing well post deconstruction
Well the reason I don't believe "I used to be an atheist" stories most of the time is because almost always the person saying that immediately follows it by a story about things they did or felt that only make sense when they actually still believed in a god. "I used to be an atheist" followed by "I just wanted to party all day long, I wanted to be free, I didn't want to believe in a god anymore" for example. Obviously they were just trying to convince themselves they were atheists as an excuse to ignore the expectations of their religious group, but the fact that they saw it as sin, as not _wanting_ to believe in a god, shows they actually did believe in a god (or are making the entire story up for a fake reconversion story).
If they _actually_ didn't believe in a god anymore, if they actually _were_ atheist, the whole concept of being an atheist because you just want to sin wouldn't have made any sense to them. It's utterly incoherent to someone who actually doesn't believe in a god, because sin - a concept you don't think is real - can't be an issue or motivation for anything if you don't believe in a god.
It's extremely rare for "I used to be an atheist" to be followed by stories that actually are possible for an atheist. But then again, the only "I used to be an atheist" stories I hear are from apologists, so I'm sure the selection of stories isn't representative to begin with.
I have to admit that the only former-atheist confessions I have ever heard are the ones that are brought up specifically to debunk, vilify or otherwise claim the falsity of Atheism. Perhaps it's because I live in the Netherlands, where religion simply isn't as enormous a factor in most people's lives (anymore) - but I've only ever heard former-atheist-apologetics used _in_ apologetics; People who, genuinely or not, feel they have to justify not only their former-atheist state but also their currently-religious state of mind.
These confessions and apologia are invariably targeted to an already-religious audience, serving little more purpose than the propagandistic nature of, say, Mr. Kent Hovind's 'Whack-An-Atheist' videos; Where Mr. Hovind poisons the well thoroughly, erects a few strawmen and burns them down, vilifying the likes of Paulogia, Viced Rhino, Sciman Dan, et cetera
- and then symbolically hits a Spongebob figure with a toy mallet.
'They' get to feel like something has been achieved, like someone has been Put In Their Place, The World Is Now Right Again, and the arguments made that have been thoroughly vilified and straw-manned can now be dismissed without bothering to listen to them because The Big Man Said They Were Worthless...
... And nothing, nothing whatsoever has actually been achieved, nothing resolved, and Mr. Hovind gets to pretend he's owned another atheist without having ever actually _done_ anything of any worth or value in any way, shape or form whatsoever.
@@guuspot923 yeah, Dutchy here as well.
This method of apologetics is courtesy of *C.S. Lewis,* who wrote a book in which he made the absurd claim that he was, _at the same time,_ both an atheist and somebody who "hated God".
For anyone who thinks for a moment, his claim of at one time being an atheist clearly isn't true, but nevertheless his tactic is still employed to this day by dishonest Christian apologists.
@@guuspot923 I've heard a few.
William Lane Craig as a atheist had existential dread. Seems plausible.
David Wood as an atheist was a murdering psychopath. Also seems possible (and well documented).
But I agree that many demonstrate that they weren't logically consistent atheists. However, they aren't very logically consistent as theists either so again... plausible.
@Stefan, Guus and Golden, I have to agree with you all, the ex-atheist apologist stories are very very rarely believable but then they are apologists for a reason.
I love the roast at r/Atheism. There are many atheists who are convinced that all or most priests are con men, the same way there are many religious people who are convinced that atheists are evil. As an atheist myself, I always cringe when I see this kind of biases in people who claim themselves as the rational ones.
Yeah, kind of embarassing somehow, that there are those types who reasoned for atheism that way. 😬
All priests are telling lies. Whether or not they're well intentioned or not doesn't really matter.
Also, the internet is a refuge for Atheists in otherwise hostile environments. It's natural to see people so against theism and religion because the internet is their outlet to vent about the problems of both things.
@Sam A lie is when someone makes a statement that they know to be false or omit information from a statement in an attempt to create a false perception of the subject matter. Lies are by definition matters of intention.
It is not a lie to be mistaken or to put forward a possible answer to a question so long as you are clear that it is just a possibility.
For example, an audience member wouldn't be lying when they claim to have seen a mentalist read somebody's mind. They'd just be mistaken, tricked by the act and techniques of the mentalist.
i've not many "professional" bible thumpers, ie priest or whatever, but the ones i have met live up to my stereotypes, i have a catholic priest as anext door neighbour, he's the grumpiest person i know and the last person i would "turn to" for any reason. i suppose there are some nice theists out there, but like their boss they hide efficiently.
@@violeth2255 it's no excuse when you work for the master of the universe. especially when you are dictating to rules to others, okay be a "nice preacher" but when you are condemning people to hell, telling them they are sinners, telling them they are immoral, dictating healthcare and lifestyle i hope you can see that they have a moral RESPONSIBILITY to be CORRECT. if you're too lazy to question what you preach then you are dishonest at best.
I’ve already watched this twice. Thank you, it’s outstanding.
Simply incredible video. Hits so many serious points without any subjective bend or seasationalism. Presenting ideas and letting them fall together as the viewer sees fit. This is why we watch your videos. Because we've seen people with much more hostile approaches on each side of the argument, but none are as approachable, concice, and convincing.
Like”life has no purpose without god”.
Our legacies and contribution to the world is our prurpose.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists Bcuz killing another person accomplishes nothing good in most cases. Killing a mass murderer would be good for humanity. Killing your next door neighbor bcuz he’s doesn’t have the same beliefs as you would be an example of bad for humanity.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists bcuz money is not as important as your own humanity.
@Check proofs of Islam in my playlists decides what? People make their own decisions.
@@tonym9439 when you say creates nothing good. What is good?
@@onward8231 Good is what is good for society. Murder is bad in society that’s why there are laws against murder.
Rape and slavery are bad for society that’s why there are laws against them….except in the Bible and Quran where they are advocated and encouraged by God.
You’re something special. I’ve recommended you to many people. I’m a middle-aged atheist who adored “The Four Horsemen of Atheism” in my 20s. I love your approach!
Gotta say, this is why I haven't come out to my old church friends about becoming an atheist this year. I don't want to lose them and I don't want the backlash from the community.
A SUBSTANTIAL percentage of ex-Christians faked it for years. That's why the idea that there are many more still pretending is entirely reasonable; but it's not literally all of them.
I'm agnostic and definitely don't believe in the Abrahamic god as described, but I'm in the same boat with my old church friends. I've enjoyed our times together and appreciate the support and community we all had together, and still even respect a good number of them. Plus, a good chunk of my family. I just don't want to deal with the emotional exhaustion that would be opening up about my leaving the faith... At the very least, I've moved across the country so I don't need to take my beliefs by attending church or bible study groups with them or cause suspicion by not doing those all of a sudden.
As a Christian turned atheist turned spiritualist, I have learned a lot about patience and understanding. At times I consider visiting my local catholic church to see if they would let me give confession, one, because I know the psychology of how that works and it makes sense, and two, to also dive into the mind of the local priest through his interactions with my statements. Not as a troll looking to tear him down as I probably would have in my edgy atheist days but as an outsider interested in bridging faith.
I don't know if catholicism is okay with me doing that so I never bothered to try.
I appreciate these videos so much. Thanks, Drew!
I am a way better person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. There was so much ingrained hate and anger in the dogma that I have had to unlearn my tendency to group and judge people. Yes I am also a lesbian and therefore sinning in the eyes of my previous social group. But when I left the faith I hadn’t even understood my sexual orientation. I wasn’t given enough information about love or sex to even know what my “butterflies in stomach” equivalent meant. I didn’t know I wanted what they consider wrong so it couldn’t have been a motivation.
Well done. I appreciate this content so much. As an ex Mormon I feel this in my soul the God I was taught is abusive and conditions apply for His acceptance and love.
Just felt to say that I'm still a Christian but I love your content. A lot of Christian's use the Word to act as authority and sadly those people exist everywhere in everything and are horrible. Keep up the good work you do.
I actually sin less as an atheist than I did as a Christian, because I no longer have the get out of jail free card that was divine forgiveness. Now I only have my very real accountability to my fellow human beings and that's a lot harder to face than having to make a confession to god in secret.
I don't hate god, but I am bitter towards the betrayal of having lived under a false promise. I wasn't mad at Santa Clause because of gifts I never got, I was mad at being accused of being a bad child by a rich kid who thought they were better than me because they got more gifts. It's not the character I'm mad about, it's all the false hope and wasted years.
@Yvonne Dalton Some people may genuinely find transformation through religion. I do believe that. I've also come to believe that Christianity is not the only religion people can genuinely find personal transformation through. I've met genuinely good people of every religion, and genuinely horrible people as well. The same goes with atheists. My experience was not a good one and I was very deeply damaged by my former faith. I was devout, to be sure, but a lot happened that eventually broke me and my faith in god. It's an extremely sensitive topic so forgive me if I refrain from details. You may be sceptical, but that doesn't change what I went through. You may doubt, but sadly, my personal experience doesn't hinge on the credulity of others. I found personal growth and liberation in valuing others without being told to or under the penalty of divine retribution. I learned to love others out of genuine compassion, no god required.
I'm glad that others can be better people through faith, but there are so many people wearing crosses who have hurt and torn down others, even as far as making laws to forbid them equal civil rights. I just have a hard time seeing any one path as the "only way" when so many paths seem to produce some good but mostly mediocre (and a few truly awful) people.
All in all, though, this feels a lot like a doubt of my former faith. You don't know me and you're wrong about what you've inferred about me in your reply. It's easy to say "you just didn't do it right" when something that worked for you doesn't work for someone else. It's even easy to assume why and how they "did it wong." I've been guilty of that in my past. In spite of me being a non-believer, I am genuinely far better off that I was when I was in the faith. I found transformation on a path different that yours and that's okay.
If your faith makes you a better person then I hope you remain strong in it. For many, unfortunately, it only serves to reinforce their worst values. For others it creates a cycle of hurt and self lothing. For some, it's even worse.
@Yvonne Dalton you need to understand, EVERY religion makes claims like these. Notice how none of them are demonstrable. None of what you're saying is something you can prive to be true. Anyone can claim to be a new creation, and anyone can claim to have the holy spirit just because they want it to be true, and they can't prove it's true and nobody can prove it's false. Its all bullshit. It's in your head.
"You were never a true Christian"
"Yep"
(that was my experience)
Yeah, me too :-)
Me three,
cuz while I haven’t told most people,
I don’t remember, feeling bad,
cuz I have always been trying,
to understand myself.
Fascinating. I definitely have some self reflecting to do.
Christianity has HUGE abusive relationship vibes. If the premise of Jesus was applied to ANY OTHER relationship, every person that knew you would be screaming for you to
GET OUT!
"I love you. All I want, all I need, is for you to love me back. Only me.
I want what's best for you, truly. I know what's best for you, if you'd only trust me.
Only me.
Don't listen to anyone else; they are trying to take you away from me.
Turn your back on your friends, your family, your children if you must... I must come first.
I want you to be with me forever. Because you want to be with me forever.
Serving me. Forever.
But if you question me, if you doubt me, it will not end well for you.
I promise.
I could change that, true. But I won't.
I'd have to allow you to be ruined.
Because you had it coming.
Love me. Serve me. Worship me. And I will save you.
I'm the only one who can."
Darkmatter2525 did a great video on that. It is abuse.
And gIVe ME *MONEY!*
@@edunlap6594
🎶"Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet. Make your contribution and you'll get the better seat"🎶
"If you must." Evil comes in all shapes, bodies and. Well. It can be bound by family. Sometimes a family member can be destructive to your life, and your chance at a kingdom of heaven on earth. You can't say, let's substitute Jesus, if you're not gonna substitute it for Jesus's equivalent. He is love. Forget the word God for a second. Jesus is two things. Love. And Forgiveness. You certainly can't serve two masters. Especially if they're in opposition towards one another. Children can be evil. Parents will be evil. Brothers and sisters. If you must abandon, then you have to. No one must come before love and forgiveness. Don't listen to anyone else, they're trying to take you away from LOVE. Love wants what's best for you, truly. Love knows what's best. If only you trust in it. Jesus is not abusive. He's the furthest thing from.
@@jossuearias3509 the dynamics of that relationship are. Manipulative and abusive, in any other context.
Your argument, though, is that, "Jesus is different".
Ask any abuse survivor if that sounds familiar.
I have yet to tell my parents I’m agnostic because one time my mom said “I don’t even want to think about my children being agnostic” and I now have a deep fear of telling them because I feel like I will be lesser in their eyes. It’s just hard for me to even think about telling them about it. They’re not even hardcore Christians they’re just your average family. It’s amazing how one sentence could impact me so hard and make me want to not share with them. Here’s hoping I can find the whatever I need to tell them one day.
Based on my personal life experiences and stories from those I've known, my first assumption is "something happened." People usually lose faith because of some event that made them feel like it was wrong. Sometimes it was a whole series of events and finally something was the straw that broke the camel's back. Sometimes it's internal conflict between doctrine and yourself, as was the case for me. Sometimes it's entirely external, like a priest who represents the faith doing or saying something terrible to you, like at least two people I've known. People don't just WANT to sin, they want to be happy, they want to be able to love themselves, to not live in shame or misery, sometimes even being abused by those they were supposed to be able to trust and rely on. And also it's not about how much anyone was taught. I was taught some of that apologetics BS, I even believed it for a few years. But I can't deny the scientific evidence. When I learned I had been taught lies- and not just a few, but a LOT, it became impossible to trust anything they'd taught me. My questioning led to more questions, and now I doubt the Bible was really written by God or is any kind of divine or perfectly historical truth. So how could I call myself a Christian if I don't believe the Bible? I was fairly "well educated" about it, but once lies are uncovered you can't just close your eyes, pretend you saw nothing, and go back into the dark. The truth is that their foundation is shaky, their reasoning is questionable, their evidence is utterly lacking, and much of what they claim today is well known to have been deliberately altered throughout history to fit the agenda of the Church and those in it, and they'd question ME? It's laughable. And now that I've seen how much harm religions and cults can do, how easy they are to subvert and use for evil, and how easily they can cause serious harm and suffering to their members or be used by members to justify doing harm to others and then feel absolutely no guilt about it, I can't ever join one again. Even if I knew what to believe for certain I could never join a church again. I'm done with organized religion. Doesn't matter if it's Christian, Wiccan, or anything else. No one's going to try to get their hooks into my mind again or use me as a pawn in petty little power games.
Oh, and I'm also not mad at God. I generally do still believe there's something beyond this life, and something like God behind it all, but I figure that if they wanted to be known by a certain name and for everyone to worship them a certain way and follow certain rituals they'd be much more obvious about it. So since they aren't they have no rational right to get mad when we mess it up, do they? If they get mad anyway, then they aren't worthy of worship. If I'm wrong either I'm going to Hell or whatever equivalent exists along with an awful lot of people or I won't have to worry about it. I love this world, it's think it's amazing and beautiful and intricate. So I have to admire whoever made it to at least some degree- they're the ultimate artist. I figure it's not perfect because if it was nothing we did would matter. We'd have nothing to think or worry about, so we'd never have to strive to achieve anything. We aren't perfect because if we were we'd have no choices to make, so we wouldn't matter. Yes, some people make the wrong choices, and it can cause great pain the themselves and others, but if that weren't possible then nothing would matter, so I have no reason to be angry at God over it. I am annoyed that with all the scientific progress we have made we don't focus more on trying to figure out and fix the issues that cause the worst of it, but that's our problem. I believe in reincarnation. It's convenient for me. My ancestors did. And there's a lot of stories about kids who remember their past lives. So I see no reason not to. And that also makes the bad stuff more bearable because no matter how brief and or short someone's life is I can hold on to the belief that they will have another chance. Lots of people have terrible lives, so the odds aren't good, but you're bound to get lucky from time to time. Might as well enjoy what you can while you can and try to make the world a better place so that everyone in the future- possibly including you again!- has a better chance of a truly good life.
You wrote a essay
People arguing that atheists are just "mad at God" do not understand we can't be mad at something we do not believe exists. If we are angry at all, it is anger towards people who use faith as a smoke screen for abusing "wrongthinkers". But because they are hiding behind the word of God, they think our anger cannot be aimed at them. It's simply a responsibility shift ingrained in people who were always taught that all their wrongdoings are forgiven and forgotten as long as they exercise their faith fervently.
Yep
Nicely constructed 👍🏽
Every single ex-atheist I've ever met or heard of always and ALWAYS without fail converted because they were in a mentally dark place/were depressed/had some sort of mental health issue and they went to church with a friend/family member, and "felt convicted by God". Coincidentally, they always say that the preacher was saying something like "You're broken, but God can make you whole and love you" and they accept Jesus in front of the whole congregation. Its a formula really because these churches are just emotional manipulators who draw you in promising love and a community when they really just want your attendance and money and to feel morally superior. The "feeling" always comes first. It's never the "evidence"
Basically, the same game every con artist plays when they want something from someone whatever that is. It helps if the potential convert is at a low place in their lives or feels unfulfilled for one reason or another. They want to want it, no matter what 'it' is, if it promises better than what they have now.
I know this is just personal experience, but I live in a very religious country, and I've also never heard a healthy convertion story. It's always desperate people.
Hey Jaash. That is a good Analysis there. To be fair with you thats what the Bibel Speaks about. It is a faith for the poor and the broken hearted. In Times where you are overwhelmed with the complexity of life and the questions of life you are for more open and humble towards ideas like this.
But in my consideration it Shows the philosophical and psychological advantages christianity has.
I, as a Christian, want to be honest with you. Of course in terms of pure scientific evidence it will be Hard at some Times to stand on Solid ground. But I think the question of the "true" faith should be more than just fact checking.
When you were a follower of Christ yourself then you know what good it does to you as a Person.
And nerver forget.
Maybe we will find out New Things that we dont know today and maybe the Things we know today could be false tomorrow.
If there are some mistakes in grammar and pronouciation please have mercy with me.
Yours sincere,
Lukas.
My deconversion from Hinduism started when I was very young. My family was doing a weekly prayer service called a Puja. We got interrupted by a phonecall (no answering machines back then) that lasted a long time. I quickly grew bored, and decided to finish the prayers by myself. But when I prayed, it felt like I was talking to myself. No one was listening. As if that wasn't bad enough, once the call was done I tried to explain to my parents that I had finished my prayers. Predictably they were having none of it, and dragged me back to repeat those same empty prayers. That planted the subversive idea in my young mind, that all these prayers and devotions were nothing but a dog and pony show. If a god or gods were real, they had no interest. Once planted, the idea could not be stopped. From there on out, prayer was nothing but a rote exercise, saying what mortal people wanted to hear. It was a very long time before I finally shed the last vestiges of my faith. And good riddance. I didn't need it, and am much better off without.
@Jaash
Welcome to my problem with organized religion, despite being a Christian.
Because they always and I mean ALWAYS go after the emotionally and mentally vulnerable. Hence why, I believe the claims of former atheists. Because as someone who's one the outside of politics and organized religion looking in, I'm aware that much like there are soft minded theists, there are also weak minded atheists vulnerable to the manipulative tactics of shady pastors. Instead of knowing God honestly, they conform to an ill-concieved idea. That's how pastors like Kenneth Copeland and Jessie Duplantis made their fortune, leeching off gullible fools.
It bugs me because for atheists there are alternatives like therapy, and religion isn't just about emotion, it's about strengthening the mind, body, and spirit. You have to be informed, and resolute in wanting to grow. And that evidence bit is the part that irks me most of all. This is why such emotionally vulnerable atheists may need to spend more time with people like you. That way they won't be easily swayed since evidence for God's existence is vital for you to believe he exist.
I find a lot of fellow Christians reinforce their beliefs with assumptive evidence: "So and so was brilliant and believed in God so it must be true," "I heard this miraculous thing happened and I believe it and it confirms all my beliefs to be true,". I think that they think it strengthens their faith, but it ultimately weakens it because they're building upon half-truths and assumptions rather than learning to be comfortable with uncertainty and not knowing all the answers. Afterall, Peter said to Jesus after the Bread of Life discourse: "This is hard to swallow. But we believe in you. So we won't abandon you even in our doubt." I appreciate the thoughtful video and wish you all the best.
A great example of this I only recently discovered was Steven Crowder vs Rhett and link. Rhett and Link used to be major evangelical Christians and they decided to share their deconstruction stories on their podcasts, and Steven turned it into multiple videos responding to them and claiming that they are trying to push people away from the church and Christianity which he said he viewed as bad. If he bothered to watch their story, he’d know that that is not the case and their story was very personal and took them each nearly 20 years to get to where they are now which isn’t even athiesm but just agnosticism. Steven’s responses were so predictable and yet still hurtful nonetheless because of how he tried to misconstrue two genuinely kindhearted guys into devious anti religious zealots
Love the video man, keep up the good work
Steven is a PoS for a large variety of reasons, not surprised he did something like this at all.
My frustration is in trying to have an intelligent conversation about why I believe what I do. I have a Christian friend who says he respects my beliefs, and we have some good conversations. However, it is so evident to me (since I used to be just like him) that he is only talking to me because he is worried about my eternal soul and wants to "win me back." He just cannot accept that my reason for leaving the church has NOTHING to do with someone in the church "hurting my feelings." I try to explain that it is completely intellectual and critical thinking - but he just won't buy it.
I taught religion in a UK secondary school with 35% children of Muslim parents. A group of bright 12 year old Muslim boys approached me after a lesson. 'Why aren't you Muslim sir?'
I scratched my head. "Well I don't believe any God exists.".
"But you know so much about Islam and everyone we know who know that much believes it. We just thought that if you know that much then you had to believe it."
"But boys, I know a lot about Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism. Why would I pick out Islam as the one to believe? In fact it is that fact that I know about all of them that lead me to reject all of them."
I just discovered your channel, and have been going back and watching some of the older ones. This is absolutely one of my favorites. As someone who "deconstructed" almost 40 years ago (at which time there wasn't really a word for it), I have heard all of these responses over the years. What I never realized was that those responses are so universal to other religions and even atheists. Hell, I've probably said one of two of them myself over the years. This video is a real eye-opener. Thanks.
We can try so hard to convince Christians that we didn’t just leave because of anger with or feeling betrayed by God, but in reality, that should be a valid reason to leave. If I don’t want to worship what I perceive to be an abusive God, I won’t.
As an atheist, thank you for including atheists who have the same group biases. Showing that both sides do it makes a fair argument and undercuts the claim that you're just attacking Christianity or Islam (or Christians and Muslims). It's a credit to you.
That’s what makes him a high quality dude.
Engaging an ingroup of established religion with empathy is the most difficult thing to practice. One we are usually facing them as an out group ourselves and met with hostility and bad faith, putting us on a dire defensive. Two, when the societal harm of the out group practice is the observed and pointed out, and still met with defiance of the points it inducts a sense of bad faith, that the members of the ingroup then willfully engage in harmful practice.
Terrific video. Great insights. SO much insight. I am on a journey "reconstructing" my faith. I want a New Christianity. To hear your accepting your own fellow Atheist failings that mirror those of fundamentalists is so cleansing. Love Onward.
May i recommend some atheist-youtuber who are real-good?
What gets me is when Christian's say your sweet and kind and loving but as soon as you say you're an atheist, you can see the negative judgement in their face.
I will definitely need to keep Outgroup Homogeneity Bias in mind. The general information I see about Christians, particularly Southern Baptists, reinforces the stereotype of them all being self righteous, authoritarian jerks. Still, the individual Christians I know are mostly good people who have differing ideas about things. You're right, it is silly to think that Evangelicals are all the same.
Yeah, I never noticed I actually sometimes did that until I thought about it just now. Will have to try harder not to generalize.
Same
The psychology behind tribalism is fascinating. Great video!
Great video, so recognizable! Thank you.
Those believers are so harsh, judgemental, and biassed.
At the root of all this, I think, is fear. Yoda was right after all:
Fear is the path to the dark side, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
1. "You just choose to disbelief, because you just want to sin"
This one is truly maddening as it packs so much ridiculous nonsense in a single attack. It's _impossible_ to choose what you belief or don't. And it's _impossible_ for an atheist to want to sin, because if you don't believe a god exist you can't believe sin exists either, you can't intend to do something you don't believe exist. Furthermore if a theist was just pretending to be atheist so they could sin they are flat out insane; you can't be sane and think that pretending to be an atheist would fool the omniscient god you actually do believe in, nor that somehow you wouldn't get send to hell for your sin while the only sin you actually get send to hell for is being an atheist... This one attack alone truly shows how damaging religion can be to someone's ability to think...
And that's on top of the outgroup stuff. It's one thing to have a bias to think the outgroup is lying, it's another to give insane excuses for it.
This is really one of your best and most important videos, Drew, maybe you should elaborate some more on this.
Amazing how many commenters, including me, recognize this. Maybe I will share some personal things later.
It is all fear: believers fear, consciously or unawares, that people that abandon their faith, might have sound reasons to disbelieve.
The one who said "They were never atheists" clearly never heard of babies.
ruclips.net/video/yTqvlVWq0sA/видео.html&lc=UgwV2aj_koeU-BXL-Jp4AaABAg
One of your best so far. Always good to take a look in the mirror. Thanks.
Christian: "You were never a true Christian!"
Me "Guess not..."
or
Me "You don't know what my walk with God is/was..."
Throughout the bible, God/Lord is the Sun. God can stay right where he is.
@L B
I must admit, I'm guilty of having that thought gross my mind, but it's for a reason different from the zealots.
Many atheists who defect from religion largely because the thought that God exist doesn't sound reasonable to them in the face of science and reason. This is also due to reinforced notions from family and a community. And religion as you know is supposed to be a matter of the heart, and yet from what I've seen for many that's easier said than done.
Hell took me nine years to find the line between my emotion and my sense of reason.
So whenever I think "you were never a true Christian," I feel I'm insulting someone by implying they were a brainwashed sheep in a cult. Hence why I don't voice such a sentiment.
"You were never a true christian" is self-defeating because it admits that true christians are those unwilling to change their minds based on evidence, experience, reason, logic and personal growth.
@@DoctorZisIN It's also a True Scotsman argument. Nothing of value gained there.
My brother told me the same thing and my response was “how on earth could you know that?” It is such a huge assumption based on “real Christians won’t become atheists.”
I would imagine there’s a strong correlation between leaving a behaviour controlling religion and performing a previously prohibited behaviour. Even my atheist friend thought my journey out of my religion was prompted by a desire to perform restricted behaviours. It was liberating to not have my behaviour controlled, but I could have carried on faithfully if I still believed the truth claims of the religion.
Of course there's a strong correlation. Most controlling religions prohibit either leaving or disbelieving in the controlling religion. If so, it is impossible to leave WITHOUT performing a prohibited behaviour.
Some behaviors people really should have under control. I believe that sex shouldn't happen outside of marriage for religious reasons, but there's a lot of secular reasons too. Mostly deadbeat dads that won't pay child support. If the woman can't afford to raise the child on her own, well that means more public assistance is needed and taxes go up. This situation still happens even when sex is within a marriage and a divorce occurs afterward, but when it happens in non-marriages as well, that's just more problems happening that really shouldn't be happening if our culture was more responsible. If it's controlling to hold people accountable for foolish impulsive behaviors, then I'm all for it.
@@theboombody that is to a large part a result of various factors eliminating clans and other larger family groups.
Deadbeat dads are more of a problem within marriage than without. Outside of marriage there is less of a contract to violate.
And the Abrahamic religious traditions giving all rights and no responsibility to the husband is a big part of the problem.
In non-patriarchal religions, the wife has more power, and control of the finances is often in the hands of a woman.
And in countries with reasonable maternal/paternal leave and proper childcare systems, the problem is much less prevalent. Unchecked capitalism leading to insufficient wages leads to problems like this. Even Adam Smith advocated for regulations on Capitalism.
@@theboombody thanks for your reply. From my perspective, if you can give a reason for a prohibition on behaviour than we can inspect whether those reasons are good and appropriate and the religious foundation becomes superfluous to reasonableness. Religion however, often restricts behaviour without being reasonable or the reason is given pots hoc and makes spurious claims. Behaviour controlling religions often restrict behaviours that have been shown to have positive effects on human well-being and the attempt to shame and control the behaviour does far more harm than any potential good. What I found leaving a behaviour controlling religion is that it has little to do with prudence and almost everything to do with obedience.
@@Soylent1981 Well of course religion often restricts behavior without being reasonable. That was half of Jesus's message to the synagogue leaders. But what makes you think secularism is immune from that? There's no religion in the US tax code, but there are a lot of tiny restrictive rules in there that often seem to have no purpose.
And you're right about unchecked capitalism being a bad thing, but how does sleeping around indiscriminately make any improvements to capitalism?
I love the "you just want to sin" one, it's not like you can ask god to be forgiven for everything...
@WillTell
It's a guilt tactic to keep the sheep in line and from exploring the world around them.
Starting to see why people think many Christians like myself are cultists. Hence why I try to distance myself from this denominational crap.
Demonic you’re big brain I admire your intellect
Sin is only within a religion, it is a member breaking religious rules. If you're Christian, for example, you can't sin in Judaism. If you're Buddhist you can't sin in Christianity. If you're atheist you can't sin at all.
@@austinlincoln3414
I wouldn't call this a display of intellect, as I'm speaking from experience of growing up exposed to and living with this mentality. Because of the Pokemon Satanic Panic period, I started thinking any media that wasn't bluntly religious was deemed "evil." This effected me when I started creating comics and novels in my teens. I felt incredibly guilty writing a comic issue where angels, demons, humans, and an elf fight team up to fight a demon lord. I was also racked with guilt over writing a story about demon girl seeking eternal salvation, because it could be seen as advocacy for Satanism.
I got over this guilt as I got older, but threw myself back in when I sensed my big break was coming. Can't bring myself to tell my parents about my current published works, so I'm torturing myself trying to write a "good Christian story" that won't freak them or any other "devout Christian" out. That's why I'm watching this, as background noise while going through such a labor.
@@thekaxmax
I really hate these semantics... Because if atheists don't believe in the concept of sin, then what do you consider immoral actions? And how do you judge what is immoral?
But I'm not dumb, as I understand why many atheists reject the concept. It's because many sects define nearly everything as "sin."
Like I implied in my reply to Austin Lincoln, I grew up exposed to that mentality. So it makes sense why many atheists reject the idea and label of "sin."
This was wonderful. I'm a devout Christian, and I respect this message completely.
Regardless of the truth or falsehood of the claims of why people go or stay in a group, even if they simply didn't want to be bound by that group's rules, etc, to demand that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is precisely the reason that person left is just epistemicaly arrogant, and at the very best, unhelpful to literally everyone.
If yiu want to persuade someone, start from where they say they are, and don't assume they're lying or that you know them better than they know themselves. It's frigging irritating, and you guarantee that perosn will be turned off by you.
If you're a Christian, you have every reason to listen to that warning, if you literally believe that those who refuse Jesus's pardon will be annihilated or worse, eternally consciously tormented, you better start figuring out how to love them like Jesus did, and real quick.
I respect your manner and candor drew. Thanks.
I can understand how believers could make this generalization if they are unable to see things from an outside perspective. It would seem that when someone stops believing, they start doing things that the religion prohibits. However if they took the time to understand, they would see that when you stop caring about the arbitrary rules of a particular faith you are obviously no longer going to see things as wrong by it's dictates. Instead your morality will be governed by other means. Basically, it's not that they stopped believing so that they could "sin". They started "sinning" because they now see those rules are pointless.
Think of it this way, if a woman stopped being a Muslim, wouldn't it make sense for her to no longer worry about covering herself with a hijab?
💯 Well put!
Love the topic! Keep up the great work!
Does this help explain the apologist trope of "I was an atheist until I came across real evidence for (insert deity) now I try to convert others!"? Because that's one that is just as tired.
I love that one... especially when you ask them for this "real evidence" and they just regurgitate a string of long addressed philosophical arguments.
@@timeshark8727 Usually bring out the bible as proof of God's existence and when you ask them how they know the bible is true, they say because it says so in the bible. Whenever they have to fall back on that one, which they invariably do, they lose. With all the archeology/anthropology that has gone on, you'd think some evidence would have been found by now, yet nothing mentioned in the Bible has ever surfaced.
@@timeshark8727 I'd love if somebody tried to convert people to the old Greek pantheon because Zeus tried to bang his dog. Perfectly in character for the god, too.
@@Llortnerof What didn't Zeus try to bang?
@@timeshark8727 The “real evidence” is usually “Trust me. I’m a smart guy and I looked into it and the evidence is really clear. Take my word for it”.
Ahhh this guy, Dr. Turek, I attended a presentation in Nashville several years ago and challenged him on the framing of Atheism vs Theism as opposite positive positions, as well the moral absurdity that godly knowledge makes clear justification for the appearance of evil, cruel suffering, etc. Also, a full hour+ prior to speaking, a massive projection of his book was shining on the backdrop.
Great video once again, Drew. This is coming from a Christian. I do think it is imperative for my fellow Christians to come down to the level of others if they really want to show their care.
For myself.....and I think this applies to most Christians who have deconstructed their faith....we educated our way out.
I outgrew atheism - such a freeing experience.
The first point about wanting to sin - I haven't officially ever stated that I'm an atheist, but I've been looking to become one. Currently though, I'm a muslim, in the sense where I follow the rules (dont eat pork, dont date, the lot). But yes, I do get excited when I think about how I would be able to do these things if I left islam. What I don't like is when you accuse me that I don't believe in a god because I want to do these things. That's absolutely not it. I don't believe for a completely different reason. I obviously will not follow Islamic rules when I became an atheist.
Thankyou. It’s important to be aware of these biased responses - not just to defend ourselves from biased others - but to defend others from our own biases. It’s always worth reminding myself to regard others, especially my outgroup, with compassion and earnest listening.
The fact that you used atheists to show that it's more of a group/out group thing more than a religious thing makes this video amazing imo
1:41 "And one can utilize that body of knowledge to understand why certain Christian responses to their outgroup are so common."
Now, if we replaced 'Christian' with [fill in the blank] . . .
Which basically proves it's a human trait which ended up in religion because it was made up by humans.
@@tkps Exactly. I was just wondering if someone was going to identify which group has replaced Christians as the dominant arbiter of values nowadays (i.e., the group that many are now afraid to contradict).
@@paulthompson9668 This is about outgroup bias which every group has, so the very idea of a largest ingroup has who replaced Christianity as the arbiters of moral truth nowadays is nonsensical. I bet some small atheist groups in medieval times believed that the Church was only in it for the money and were immoral liars like some atheists nowadays claim.
To get close to answering your question you would have to ask what ingroup is the most influential in society about our morals. And their is no such group that obviously commands much more moral influence than all others. The constant flip-flipping between whichever political parties have the most influence in our governments shows that no singular ideology or group has such influence (at least in the English speaking sphere of the world, IDK a out places outside said sphere).
Of course on a local level or in certain groups their can some ingroups that obviously have a dominant hold on morality. But for 'society' as a whole, depending on what you mean by society? There is no singular group that dominantes all others.
There is no one group or thing that hands down the moral truth for us.
The subject of where and how individuals and societies come to their moral values is a complex and deep one. Any simplistic conclusion one comes to about such a thing is likely, if not outright wrong, extremely oversimplified and not nuanced enough to get a proper understanding.
@@liarwithagun Allow me to introduce you to the woke cartel of Big Tech, the Mainstream Media, the Democratic party, and their corporate panderers (e.g., Procter & Gamble, the NFL, Nike, etc.)
You're a level-headed dude, man. Keep doing good.
Atheists aren't angry at god. They're angry at christians he pretend to hold the ultimate truth but are willing to critically address the many issues in the church the text