Hey everyone! Thanks for watching! I forgot to link to the articles I mentioned in our conversation so if you reply here to what those were I can add them ASAP.
Thank you Trent for meeting with Jon. I would just suggest that you let him finish his train of thought before jumping in with your defense. Your passion is evident... it just would have been nice to have heard more of Jon's since he was willing to be so vulnerable by sharing his journey with RUclips land. God bless you!
If I'm not mistaken, Jon is a epistemic agnostic. I do pray he will be blessed in his truth seeking journey, I believe he's doing a great job with his channel. Some of his problems with God is very painful, and I suffer with it myself, and still do, however I can't give up on God, or leave him for he has saved me. I pray Jon will be able to overcome his doubts, and I pray that God heals other Christians suffering from these terrible doubts. God bless all of you!
I believe it is common to hit dry spells within our faith journey. That is when we need to pray for Jesus to help us with our unbelief! (Mark 9:23-25) We may loose sight of Jesus... But Jesus never looses sight of us! God bless you my friend! 💠
I didn't know Jon at all. I totally appreciate his honesty. Also, what a humble way to open his heart and listen other's points. I'll pray for you and your family, brother. THANKS a lot, Trent, for all you do. Oremus ad invicem!
@@tony1685 bro leave the Catholic RUclips channels alone. Protestantism is not convincing and your arguments have been disproved long ago. I've had arguments with u many times, your just a troll on the Catholic side of RUclips.
What an incredibly genuine, open minded, and intelligent guy. I hope he is able to follow the truth, and I'll offer him a prayer for what it's worth. God bless.
Trent portrayed lots of kindness but still interrupted Jon at almost every opportunity. I get that it’s his show but to me, he seemed much more interested in defending than actually hearing Jon out.
Loved the interview and love your work, Trent. But one point of feedback: conversations like this might go smoother if you make more of a conscious effort to not interrupt your interlocutor. There were quite a few moments where I wanted to hear Jon finish his idea but then you jumped in a bit early.
This is the exact kind of “dialogue” and “accompaniment” that the Church needs. I hope the synod on synodality reached out/ reaches out to Trent for input.
I really like Trent! Much prefer this type of discussion than the usual debates! I'm an atheist myself, but really like listening to these type of discussions!
Trent, you were masterful in how you led and steered this conversation. And Jon articulated some of my own deepest struggles so well. He seems like such an intelligent, honest man -- I pray that God continues to lead him (and all of us) to truth.
Fascinating discussion, it's so interesting to see Jon mention things throughout his life that lead him further and further from God because of the [deficiency of his faith formation from a young age]. Or to put it more charitably, lack of emphasis of particular aspects of his childhood faith. I pray that God may plant a seed in Jon sa a result of this conversation to lead to his reversion. In any case, God bless you both and thanks for sharing.
@@lullabiesofthedusk Issue #1: The Quran was written hundrends of years after the death of Jesus and says that Jesus did NOT die on the cross. Virtually *all* historians on Earth accept that Jesus died on the cross. Therefore, the Quran has been corrupted. Issue #2: The islamic dilemma (qurannic dilemma). The Quran needs the Bible to verify its claims and the Bible does not give room for the Quran. In other words, the Quran is self-defeating! Do I need to say more?
Great discussion! Trent, I wish you would take on all the mega-million dollar protestant "churches" that are so popular in your Dallas, TX since you live there. It's like a whole city of anti-catholic and false churches
@@Andy-ul1yh agreed but start telling them that or even myself just over a year and a half ago and they’d be rebuking. I pray for them and pray that God can use me to speak or at least have patience
So glad that he’s open to discussing the topics that are on his heart the most. And discussing these things with an excellent Catholic apologist will help him tremendously. The Catholic Church has the answers that he seeks and I pray for him to seek the truth and reason out his faith.
Trent, I did really enjoy this interview. I am so glad to hear that Jon has tempered his views and it is obvious he is doing some deep reading. I have to agree with his rejection of the Christianity in which he was originally steeped. So many share the route of leaving evangelicalism, testing atheism, and then coming to the true Church, and I pray that is the journey that Jon ultimately ends up completing. As an aside, I realize that on Catholic Answers Live you have to get out in front of the callers before they ramble too far, but in this longer format interview, it would be nice to allow guests like Jon to complete their thoughts before beginning your rejoinder. I think when we have the opportunity to hear someone like him be open and vulnerable, allowing him to flesh out his position, even if you are correctly anticipating what he is going to say, would be beneficial for the audience; we are not as adept at interpreting partial thoughts. I think your responses to his comments would have more context if we had the benefit of hearing the guests' full commentary first. Pax Christi.
I agree, I felt that Trent interrupted Jon a lot, and I kept thinking, "I really wanted to know what he was going to say." I would have gotten really thrown off of track and a bit miffed if I had been Jon. Not trying to attack your style, it just had too much debate-feel coming from Trent than a more conversational style that I hear from someone like Matt Fradd in his dialogues
Great discussion. I would love to sit down and talk with this guy. His demeanor and way of speaking is so reflective of myself. Needless to say, it was questions like he is asking that lead me to Catholicism.
Thank you so much for this conversation. Very grateful to you and to Jon for having the courage to be vulnerable and to talk about these things. God bless you.
I agree. But as someone who has struggled similarly, the Eucharist isn't an instant cure. I grew up Protestant, and through struggles converted to Catholicism. Things are better, but the struggle is still there.
@@Stygard No matter how much you struggle, know that the closer one gets to The Cross, the greater the struggle, God has brought you this far, don't give up now. May God reward you eternally and May The Immaculate Heart be our Refuge!
As a catholic, I can't see how can you make such statement without sarcasm. Eucharist? A piece of bread with a transcedent, essence that we can't experience with any of our senses = the tangible God who is really there? Sorry, that's just funny to me. If someone has a problem with God's hiddeness, Eucharist will only make them deeper, because "why God wants us to believe it's a body but doesn't actually change it INTO a body and just makes us believe transsubstanciation takes place?" Yet another argument against God.
God Bless you Trent and your apologetics. I could See Jon pondering a lot and him being satisfied with the some of the answers you were giving him. You are on your way to becoming the Catholic "Joe Rogan" of podcasting.
I disagree. He’s definitely good at understanding and synthesizing. But not good at listening. He talks far too much. Jon hardly got to speak a complete thought without Trent interrupting.
@@blackhairedrubio it's easy to criticize when you're watching a video of the conversation. everyone's constantly criticizing each other for not listening. yet we all wind up interrupting each other constantly. it's a human problem. we get so focused on our thoughts, not wanting to forget them before we express them, that we don't notice that we're interrupting. but we always notice when someone else interrupts us or interrupts someone else.
I appreciate much of Trent's work! However, I feel like he didn't let Jon speak very much on this episode! Would've liked to have heard more of Jon's story.
I think in these kinds of discussions it's easy to think that one has to rebutt all the point ones opponent makes. You could feel that tendency in both but Jon was better at letting stuff slide. Also, being a guest I think you are more deferring. But yes, completely agrees that Trent spoke a lot more to the point of mild annoyance.
Completely agree he did not model listening to understand or to enable his interlocutor to make their points as strongly as they can. Rather he seemed to be listening only as much as needed to frame a rebuttal and frequently interrupted and talked over his guest.
I pray that my fellow Trent Horn followers would share his videos more. The prudence of his way to practice our faith is very refreshing, therefore easier to grasp. Thank God for this.
This is so good! Jon please make your Mystery and Wonder of Being episodes available again. I was going through a very isolated deconstruction around the same time as you and those episodes helped me more than you could ever know. Now my kids are asking questions about why I don’t believe and I really want to go back to those episodes for clarity. I respect if you don’t want to make new episodes but please at least bring the old ones back! Even if your views have changed since then, all of your insights and conversations were so influential to me that I would really like to be able to revisit them and maybe even share them with my kids
As michael voris puts it, "church of nice". But its implicit in our culture. I mean, our sort of diverse multicultural society can't exist if we don't put being nice before our other beliefs.
Jon, I so wish you got to speak more...there were so many interesting moments that got missed because Trent wasn't really receiving you - ironic that the conversation ended by you speaking of the importance of presence!! I would love to see you have a talk with Leah Libresco because I have a feeling we would hear your heart more. Trent, if I may, I was listening to the podcast of the Sisters of Life called Talking about Talking and I think you should give it a listen...it really convicted me about how I speak to people especially when trying to explain matters of faith.
This had me in tears at the end. I grew up listening to Hawk Nelson and, as a recent Catholic convert, listening to Jon, I can empathize with the tradition he came from. The truth is out there Joh, it may take time for you to see it but keep seeking it. Even if it takes you to a place that terrifies you, keep seeking. Praying for you brother. God bless you Trent for doing this interview. So often Christians try to shove the faith down people's throat and not really care about the person. Yes we are to wittness but you heard him out and met him where he was at and weren't pushy. Keep doing what you're doing brother.
I had the exact same thought, and Trent Horn is my favorite. At some point in the interview, Jon seemingly tried to drop a hint to Trent by saying: "We keep going on tangents, and I haven't been able to tie a bow on it." And Trent still didn't pick up on it. Jon was gracious though, and I don't think Trent had any bad or selfish intentions, just a little too excited to jump into apologetics. Trent also probably felt a responsibility, for the sake of doubting Christians in his audience, to not leave anything unaddressed.
Great conversation and really appreciate Jon taking the time to talk about these questions with Trent. Wish there was more of this. Only thing I would say is that his deep questions that he poses to Trent (or deep thoughts) have long been thought through by Catholic thinkers, and I think Trent does a good job trying to bring this up in a friendly way. It's just another example, unfortunately, of how an evangelical/protestant upbringing conceals reason (i.e... thank you Em. Kant...)
I'd be curious to see a breakdown of how many minutes and seconds Trent talked for in this interview vs how many minutes and seconds Jon talked. Having a dialogue is fine but Trent repeatedly interrupted Jon and then determinedly talked over him, leaving Jon unable to finish or nuance his thought while Trent reformulated what (he thought) Jon was saying or went off on whatever thought of his own that was sparked by something Jon had said. Mixture of appreciation and frustration watching this convo, tbh.
I love how Jon brought up this question: “What makes a person good? What makes a person bad?” This brings me back to my belief that there is actually no such thing as a “good person” or a “bad person” - we are all just people who make good or bad choices. We ALL have great capacity for good or evil.
Is easy to formulate excuses and try to distance ourselves from our actions, to try an justify ourselves, but that’s not reality. We truly are our decisions. Our words and actions flow from the heart.
We do have the capacity to do good and bad things, but what makes a person either good or bad is not only his actions but also his intentions and what he is capable of given his circumstances. I like to imagine a lot of medieval peasants are rather bland in terms of goodness because they were not capable of much great evil. At least they are good though. But somebody who has access to a lot of money and power and who gives that up for the sake of virtue, such as Confucius or Thomas More, this is a great person, because he desires goodness, and he chooses good things, despite the fact that this means losing a lot of apparent goods.
We need to distinguish between good vs bad in the eyes of the world as opposed to good vs bad in the eyes of God. As Jesus said to the rich young ruler, no one is good except God. That's why even "good Christians" never get beyond their need for the Gospel.
Haven`t watched yet, just wanted to say I have been waiting to know why this man left the Faith ever since it happened. Thank you Mr.Horn for having Mr.Steingard on your show.
Great job, Jon, interviewing Trent on your show. Thanks for allowing him to share his faith with you! I really hope you learned the problem of suffering is not a real problem at all and divine hiddenes is just for enrichment. Keep up the good work, Jon, and continue to let your guests have the floor to share their side of the story or dialouge their opinions mostly.
Interesting, I watched the video but didn't come away with the feeling that either the problem of evil or divine hiddenness were dealt with. It was an interesting part of the conversation, but just as they got to talking about the people in the bible who had met god, the conversation moved away and they never really finished that particular thread. The only counter to the problem of evil I remember from the conversation was the freewill idea, but that doesn't feel compelling when compared to the people in the bible or to the people in heaven.
@@Wertbag99 sometimes nonbelievers are invited to christian shows not to be truly heard and understood but to show their believing audience how to get around difficult questions and continue to follow the programming.
22:31 “I think if I were Hitler’s dad I would be profoundly disappointed” Oversimplified: “All of this enraged Adolf’s father, who punished him severely”
Trent, could you address the difference between the sin of doubt and when its fine and good to be skeptical and dig into doubts you feel? This conversation was really helpful for me, thank you!
I had the same problem as Jon Steingard as a young man. I was presented the science of evolution and since I grew up in a church that taught the world was 6000 years old I ran into the problem of black and white thinking where if the one teaching I received was flawed then the whole thing must be.
Trent- Thanks for engaging in these conversations. Speaking of which, can you let the other person finish their thoughts and after hearing them out respond to their point with a summary of what they said to show that you understand them before then responding with your own point? Not every one is as antagonistic and dishonest as James White.
If only I had been half as earnest and good-faith in the pursuit of truth as Jon is when I became an atheist. I hope his seeking is fruitful and that it doesn't lead him the places it led me.
I could never understand the “Gods hidden” argument in context of Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made” - Gods creation isn’t just a happenstance, its was created to show God to us. So he is not hidden -“rationalism” of 200 years ago taken this from us. -sex, marriage, friendship, love…on and on, don’t exist for anything else then to show us the nature of God. His faithfulness, His joy, His method of creation, His beauty. - we have been taught that things are just things….they are not…they have an agency beyond themselves. If we understand this we see clearly that God is not hidden.
Due to my own life experience, I am so grateful to have a moment of clarity around this doubt. The moment boiled in down to humans attempting to control. When we think we know what is best (for us..or anything really), it is a slippery slope to not believing in God (which I can hardly type because it is so infinitely beyond sad and treacherous to even consider that unbelief). We really have to "see" that we, plain and simple, don't know much...let alone what is "best"..in order to have the relationship with God that He informs us about in Scripture (aka..a relationship with Him that is True and Righteous) Thank you, beyond measure, dear Lord God..for your Living Word.. and for everything. In Jesus Christ's Holy name, Amen.
…..releasing that "control' ..along with repenting, to me, seem like a really sound recipe for being saved and The Holy Spirit answering and lingering "questions" ..and all in a single moment.. ..all in the name of knowing Jesus Christ as The Way, The Truth and The Life All Glory to God.
I love dialogues like this. Two people with no animus toward the other's belief system, just trying to discover the truth and letting the conversation go where it goes. These two in particular have a way of blending their personal experience with the objectivity of the truth as they each understand it, and that is even rarer to come across. However, I have to point out that Trent frequently interrupted Jon, which made an otherwise highly enjoyable conversation very difficult to watch. I am 100% on the Trent side of the debate here, but it seems that in his zeal to challenge Jon he often didn't give Jon the time to express himself. The thumbnail shows Trent listening while Jon talks, but the reality of the video is the opposite. That being said, I would absolutely watch these kinds of conversations again. Keep up the good work, Trent. God bless you in your ministry.
Thank You Trent for this interview, Great one Jon = Can you do a video explaining Friedrich Nietzsche, I would like to know what is he for Christians or not, also knowing how the Nazis loved him but I also know that others say he was misinterpret, but also Ive read some of his works & it seem selfish & others seemed to be insightful. AUSTRALIA
Do you think this kind of a comment is charitable or helpful? He humbly (and quite bravely) agreed to be on Trent's podcast in order to tell his story and dialogue about it, and I think if he read a comment like this it would be quite hurtful and off-putting.
@@milesswigart706 And I commend him for that. However, I have observed a pattern in vegetarians, utilitarians and similar no harm principle people. Like when someone says something like "Are you saved?" or something like that you know that person is a "once saved always saved" person, although logically doesn't have to be. Whether people with this voice are more drawn to the no harm principle, or no harm principle causes the voice or some other explanation I do not know. But it is a pattern. I don't want to mock or be hurtful, and I certainly didn't mean to be, but if someone takes what I said for an insult, then he certainly is putting my sentence in a context it was never meant to be in.
1:01:05 Jon explains this brilliantly. A god that doesn't give you enough information to make such a seismic choice of burning forever is at the very least a bit off. Trent's answer was shockingly underwhelming by just outright denying Jon's framing.
I don't understand how a thinking man can either believe nor disbelieve without struggling through the issue. The very name given to Issac "Isrial" specifically refers to that struggle, meaning he who struggles with God. I find no real problem with that he appears to be honest. God will meet him. But we should expect more of these kind of problems. It is incredible how drastic the change of belief caused by Martin Luther's heresy. Clearly not the Gospel of the Apostles.
I was a charasmatic kid. It was fun but as an adult I needed to pursue the intellectual side of Christianity. People like Trent Horn and Bishop Barron are an integral part of that process.
When faced with the question of why does God allow bad things to happen Im often look to this quote as a reminder that God is absolute order in a disordered world and all injustices and pain stems from us disobeying him. "Sometimes I want to ask God why He allows poverty, famine, and injustice when He could do something about it, but l'm afraid he might just ask me the same question."
It was very easy to tell what issue was front and center. Your guest tried to minimize his involvement but it was obvious from the first sentence he said.
![Kodak Black - Sharp Vibes [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oEV0OoLJeIs/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey everyone! Thanks for watching! I forgot to link to the articles I mentioned in our conversation so if you reply here to what those were I can add them ASAP.
A transcript with notes of this 'dialogue' could be a bestseller... 📖 🥇
Thank you Trent for meeting with Jon. I would just suggest that you let him finish his train of thought before jumping in with your defense. Your passion is evident... it just would have been nice to have heard more of Jon's since he was willing to be so vulnerable by sharing his journey with RUclips land.
God bless you!
In 1:05:43 you quote C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, book 2 towards the end of chapter 5 "The Practical Conclusion". Excellent book
43:30 - mention articles about Galileo, in regards to how he was treated by the Church as well as the Church and science.
You're too dominating in this, Trent haha :D. Maybe your apologist side.
If I'm not mistaken, Jon is a epistemic agnostic. I do pray he will be blessed in his truth seeking journey, I believe he's doing a great job with his channel. Some of his problems with God is very painful, and I suffer with it myself, and still do, however I can't give up on God, or leave him for he has saved me. I pray Jon will be able to overcome his doubts, and I pray that God heals other Christians suffering from these terrible doubts. God bless all of you!
I believe it is common to hit dry spells within our faith journey. That is when we need to pray for Jesus to help us with our unbelief!
(Mark 9:23-25)
We may loose sight of Jesus...
But Jesus never looses sight of us!
God bless you my friend! 💠
@@rosiegirl2485 Amen. Thanks for these words friend, God bless!!!
I didn't know Jon at all. I totally appreciate his honesty. Also, what a humble way to open his heart and listen other's points. I'll pray for you and your family, brother.
THANKS a lot, Trent, for all you do. Oremus ad invicem!
I have often thought "I wish Trent would talk to this person (not necessarily Jon- but it was great)". Wish fulfilled!
Great to see you here Kent. Greetings in christ I follow your videos
Keith you should talk to John
Keith your Catholicism is contagious! Please talk to John!
I am a fan of Keith Nestor.. Trent is also great in his debates. Both great Catholic evangelisers
@@tony1685 bro leave the Catholic RUclips channels alone. Protestantism is not convincing and your arguments have been disproved long ago. I've had arguments with u many times, your just a troll on the Catholic side of RUclips.
What an incredibly genuine, open minded, and intelligent guy. I hope he is able to follow the truth, and I'll offer him a prayer for what it's worth.
God bless.
worth a lot🙂
This is a masterclass of how to engage with a fallen away Christian, agnostic or atheist. Trent is a true hero for all he does.
Agree .. totally willing the good of the other, not pretentious
Amen
Trent portrayed lots of kindness but still interrupted Jon at almost every opportunity. I get that it’s his show but to me, he seemed much more interested in defending than actually hearing Jon out.
Loved the interview and love your work, Trent. But one point of feedback: conversations like this might go smoother if you make more of a conscious effort to not interrupt your interlocutor. There were quite a few moments where I wanted to hear Jon finish his idea but then you jumped in a bit early.
This is the exact kind of “dialogue” and “accompaniment” that the Church needs. I hope the synod on synodality reached out/ reaches out to Trent for input.
Trent Horn never fails at showing you a whole new perspective on God. I'm a Catholic and he continues to blow my mind!!! God bless 🙏❤️💙🙏✝️🛐
I'm grateful for our Catholic Faith 🙏
I really like Trent! Much prefer this type of discussion than the usual debates! I'm an atheist myself, but really like listening to these type of discussions!
I’m glad that Trent had this conversation because I’m sure a lot of people are struggling with these same things.
Trent, you were masterful in how you led and steered this conversation. And Jon articulated some of my own deepest struggles so well. He seems like such an intelligent, honest man -- I pray that God continues to lead him (and all of us) to truth.
Fascinating discussion, it's so interesting to see Jon mention things throughout his life that lead him further and further from God because of the [deficiency of his faith formation from a young age]. Or to put it more charitably, lack of emphasis of particular aspects of his childhood faith. I pray that God may plant a seed in Jon sa a result of this conversation to lead to his reversion.
In any case, God bless you both and thanks for sharing.
@Ruus why not a Muslim specifically?
What's so bad about being an atheist. Why do you care whether someone is christian or not?
@@lullabiesofthedusk
Issue #1:
The Quran was written hundrends of years after the death of Jesus and says that Jesus did NOT die on the cross.
Virtually *all* historians on Earth accept that Jesus died on the cross. Therefore, the Quran has been corrupted.
Issue #2:
The islamic dilemma (qurannic dilemma). The Quran needs the Bible to verify its claims and the Bible does not give room for the Quran. In other words, the Quran is self-defeating!
Do I need to say more?
@@hhstark8663that's a valid point and I do try to clarify that to any Muslim but my question was directly to Ruus, out of curiosity
lack of faith is a good thing. Faith makes people do stupid things
Great discussion! Trent, I wish you would take on all the mega-million dollar protestant "churches" that are so popular in your Dallas, TX since you live there. It's like a whole city of anti-catholic and false churches
im sure trent's up for it. The question is whether they are up for it.
Even many non catholic Christians see this. It’s horrible.
They're a wolves in sheep clothings.
@@Andy-ul1yh from one dude to another... I know your type.... meet me on the Cathoholicism discord...
@@Andy-ul1yh agreed but start telling them that or even myself just over a year and a half ago and they’d be rebuking. I pray for them and pray that God can use me to speak or at least have patience
So glad that he’s open to discussing the topics that are on his heart the most. And discussing these things with an excellent Catholic apologist will help him tremendously. The Catholic Church has the answers that he seeks and I pray for him to seek the truth and reason out his faith.
Trent, I did really enjoy this interview. I am so glad to hear that Jon has tempered his views and it is obvious he is doing some deep reading. I have to agree with his rejection of the Christianity in which he was originally steeped. So many share the route of leaving evangelicalism, testing atheism, and then coming to the true Church, and I pray that is the journey that Jon ultimately ends up completing.
As an aside, I realize that on Catholic Answers Live you have to get out in front of the callers before they ramble too far, but in this longer format interview, it would be nice to allow guests like Jon to complete their thoughts before beginning your rejoinder. I think when we have the opportunity to hear someone like him be open and vulnerable, allowing him to flesh out his position, even if you are correctly anticipating what he is going to say, would be beneficial for the audience; we are not as adept at interpreting partial thoughts. I think your responses to his comments would have more context if we had the benefit of hearing the guests' full commentary first.
Pax Christi.
I agree, I felt that Trent interrupted Jon a lot, and I kept thinking, "I really wanted to know what he was going to say." I would have gotten really thrown off of track and a bit miffed if I had been Jon. Not trying to attack your style, it just had too much debate-feel coming from Trent than a more conversational style that I hear from someone like Matt Fradd in his dialogues
Unfortunately I see a lot of ex Catholics in my charismatic circles. Cuts both ways
Great discussion. I would love to sit down and talk with this guy. His demeanor and way of speaking is so reflective of myself. Needless to say, it was questions like he is asking that lead me to Catholicism.
Agreed, he sounds exactly like where I was right before going to RCIA and receiving the sacraments.
Thank you so much for this conversation. Very grateful to you and to Jon for having the courage to be vulnerable and to talk about these things. God bless you.
He wants a tangible God that is really there. This man needs the Eucharist.
This is exactly what I was thinking too!
I agree. But as someone who has struggled similarly, the Eucharist isn't an instant cure. I grew up Protestant, and through struggles converted to Catholicism. Things are better, but the struggle is still there.
Amen Brotha!
@@Stygard No matter how much you struggle, know that the closer one gets to The Cross, the greater the struggle, God has brought you this far, don't give up now.
May God reward you eternally and May The Immaculate Heart be our Refuge!
As a catholic, I can't see how can you make such statement without sarcasm. Eucharist? A piece of bread with a transcedent, essence that we can't experience with any of our senses = the tangible God who is really there? Sorry, that's just funny to me. If someone has a problem with God's hiddeness, Eucharist will only make them deeper, because "why God wants us to believe it's a body but doesn't actually change it INTO a body and just makes us believe transsubstanciation takes place?" Yet another argument against God.
God Bless you Trent and your apologetics. I could See Jon pondering a lot and him being satisfied with the some of the answers you were giving him. You are on your way to becoming the Catholic "Joe Rogan" of podcasting.
Trent has supernatural listening skills. Great interview
He's very understanding too
I disagree. He’s definitely good at understanding and synthesizing. But not good at listening. He talks far too much. Jon hardly got to speak a complete thought without Trent interrupting.
@@blackhairedrubio 100% agree. It would have been a much better interview if Trent has listened more and talked less.
@@blackhairedrubio iagree
@@blackhairedrubio it's easy to criticize when you're watching a video of the conversation. everyone's constantly criticizing each other for not listening. yet we all wind up interrupting each other constantly. it's a human problem. we get so focused on our thoughts, not wanting to forget them before we express them, that we don't notice that we're interrupting. but we always notice when someone else interrupts us or interrupts someone else.
I love learning more and more about my faith 😊
I appreciate much of Trent's work! However, I feel like he didn't let Jon speak very much on this episode! Would've liked to have heard more of Jon's story.
I think in these kinds of discussions it's easy to think that one has to rebutt all the point ones opponent makes. You could feel that tendency in both but Jon was better at letting stuff slide. Also, being a guest I think you are more deferring.
But yes, completely agrees that Trent spoke a lot more to the point of mild annoyance.
Completely agree he did not model listening to understand or to enable his interlocutor to make their points as strongly as they can. Rather he seemed to be listening only as much as needed to frame a rebuttal and frequently interrupted and talked over his guest.
I love the dialogue episodes. I like the debates too, but these are much more relatable and realistic to a conversation I might actually have.
I pray that my fellow Trent Horn followers would share his videos more. The prudence of his way to practice our faith is very refreshing, therefore easier to grasp. Thank God for this.
I usually do not sit and watch 2 hour interviews but this, this was an exception. This conversation warmed my soul
This is so good! Jon please make your Mystery and Wonder of Being episodes available again. I was going through a very isolated deconstruction around the same time as you and those episodes helped me more than you could ever know. Now my kids are asking questions about why I don’t believe and I really want to go back to those episodes for clarity. I respect if you don’t want to make new episodes but please at least bring the old ones back! Even if your views have changed since then, all of your insights and conversations were so influential to me that I would really like to be able to revisit them and maybe even share them with my kids
The modern man thinks being "nice" is the highest good. I see it everywhere.
As michael voris puts it, "church of nice". But its implicit in our culture. I mean, our sort of diverse multicultural society can't exist if we don't put being nice before our other beliefs.
Very Humanistic
Yep. You can get banned on Twitter and Facebook if you're not nice. Especially if you're not nice to rotten people.
Their favorite word seems to be empathy as if that's the secret ingredient.
@@TickleMeElmo55 Empathy for law breakers and degenerates is what they mean.
Trent our Lord has given you lots of wisdom and patience. Lord bless you and greetings from a Lutheran brother in Christ.
1:08:00 Never heard about “beauty” of sharing about God with others like our children. Thank you Trent.
Jon, I so wish you got to speak more...there were so many interesting moments that got missed because Trent wasn't really receiving you - ironic that the conversation ended by you speaking of the importance of presence!! I would love to see you have a talk with Leah Libresco because I have a feeling we would hear your heart more.
Trent, if I may, I was listening to the podcast of the Sisters of Life called Talking about Talking and I think you should give it a listen...it really convicted me about how I speak to people especially when trying to explain matters of faith.
In the words of Bishop Barron responding to Jon's statement last year,
"THIS IS WHY SOLAR SCRIPTURA DOESN'T WORK"
Sola not solar. We're not sun worshippers.
Bishop Barron belives that Christianity is only A PRIVILIGED way and NOT The ONLY WAY not the best bishop to follow
@@borderlands6606
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well, Christ is the SON of God.
@@bibibuu6646 Well, he does believe Christ is the only way.
kinda funny....Barron must have been attempting a pun here.....that went over some heads.
This had me in tears at the end. I grew up listening to Hawk Nelson and, as a recent Catholic convert, listening to Jon, I can empathize with the tradition he came from. The truth is out there Joh, it may take time for you to see it but keep seeking it. Even if it takes you to a place that terrifies you, keep seeking. Praying for you brother.
God bless you Trent for doing this interview. So often Christians try to shove the faith down people's throat and not really care about the person. Yes we are to wittness but you heard him out and met him where he was at and weren't pushy. Keep doing what you're doing brother.
I'm 15 minutes into this and am enjoying it..but I really wish Trent would let Jon finish his thoughts...let the man speak a bit more
I had the exact same thought, and Trent Horn is my favorite. At some point in the interview, Jon seemingly tried to drop a hint to Trent by saying: "We keep going on tangents, and I haven't been able to tie a bow on it." And Trent still didn't pick up on it. Jon was gracious though, and I don't think Trent had any bad or selfish intentions, just a little too excited to jump into apologetics. Trent also probably felt a responsibility, for the sake of doubting Christians in his audience, to not leave anything unaddressed.
Great conversation and really appreciate Jon taking the time to talk about these questions with Trent. Wish there was more of this. Only thing I would say is that his deep questions that he poses to Trent (or deep thoughts) have long been thought through by Catholic thinkers, and I think Trent does a good job trying to bring this up in a friendly way. It's just another example, unfortunately, of how an evangelical/protestant upbringing conceals reason (i.e... thank you Em. Kant...)
God bless brother, all our questions in our mind, one day God will provide answers.
Great interview! I really liked this style of episode!
Trent, I think you could do a better job of letting him finishes his thoughts.
This is worth saving. In case one of my kids ever strays or has doubts. So glad Trent is on our team !
I'd be curious to see a breakdown of how many minutes and seconds Trent talked for in this interview vs how many minutes and seconds Jon talked. Having a dialogue is fine but Trent repeatedly interrupted Jon and then determinedly talked over him, leaving Jon unable to finish or nuance his thought while Trent reformulated what (he thought) Jon was saying or went off on whatever thought of his own that was sparked by something Jon had said. Mixture of appreciation and frustration watching this convo, tbh.
I love how Jon brought up this question: “What makes a person good? What makes a person bad?” This brings me back to my belief that there is actually no such thing as a “good person” or a “bad person” - we are all just people who make good or bad choices. We ALL have great capacity for good or evil.
I read the “what makes a person good” part of this comment exactly when he said it
Is easy to formulate excuses and try to distance ourselves from our actions, to try an justify ourselves, but that’s not reality. We truly are our decisions. Our words and actions flow from the heart.
We do have the capacity to do good and bad things, but what makes a person either good or bad is not only his actions but also his intentions and what he is capable of given his circumstances.
I like to imagine a lot of medieval peasants are rather bland in terms of goodness because they were not capable of much great evil. At least they are good though. But somebody who has access to a lot of money and power and who gives that up for the sake of virtue, such as Confucius or Thomas More, this is a great person, because he desires goodness, and he chooses good things, despite the fact that this means losing a lot of apparent goods.
We need to distinguish between good vs bad in the eyes of the world as opposed to good vs bad in the eyes of God. As Jesus said to the rich young ruler, no one is good except God. That's why even "good Christians" never get beyond their need for the Gospel.
@@sarco64 Until they reach the transforming union, but it is God who causes this anyway so yeah...
Appreciate this discussion. Would have liked hearing more from Jon.
We need a repeat! Want to hear more from him. 2020 has done so much to stir so much within us. Well, not 2020 but the Holy Spirit. Keep the faith.
Haven`t watched yet, just wanted to say I have been waiting to know why this man left the Faith ever since it happened. Thank you Mr.Horn for having Mr.Steingard on your show.
Great job, Jon, interviewing Trent on your show. Thanks for allowing him to share his faith with you! I really hope you learned the problem of suffering is not a real problem at all and divine hiddenes is just for enrichment. Keep up the good work, Jon, and continue to let your guests have the floor to share their side of the story or dialouge their opinions mostly.
Interesting, I watched the video but didn't come away with the feeling that either the problem of evil or divine hiddenness were dealt with. It was an interesting part of the conversation, but just as they got to talking about the people in the bible who had met god, the conversation moved away and they never really finished that particular thread. The only counter to the problem of evil I remember from the conversation was the freewill idea, but that doesn't feel compelling when compared to the people in the bible or to the people in heaven.
@@Wertbag99 sometimes nonbelievers are invited to christian shows not to be truly heard and understood but to show their believing audience how to get around difficult questions and continue to follow the programming.
Thank you so much for conversations like this!! I hope many people see this!
Great job - and I really admire his openness. I'll pray for Jon and his conversion. God bless him and his family.
This was a beautiful conversation. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Maybe that moment of realization with his daughter reaching up to him was ‘God revealing Himself ’ to him.
I respect Trent for his great maturity in debating. We pray your successful in evangelising
This was a discussion....not meant to be a debate. We need to see more discussions and less debates......and less proselytizing.
22:31 “I think if I were Hitler’s dad I would be profoundly disappointed”
Oversimplified: “All of this enraged Adolf’s father, who punished him severely”
I always thought to be the only person in this world watching Trent AND Oversimplified ;-)
@@danielvinzent2520 Nope lol
Trent, could you address the difference between the sin of doubt and when its fine and good to be skeptical and dig into doubts you feel? This conversation was really helpful for me, thank you!
This was an amazing conversation.
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Amazing conversation! I’ll pray for Jon to find peace!
This guy, John Steingard, knows his stuff/atheism. He are aware the most popular issues raised by atheist. Clearly he studies in his journey.
I had the same problem as Jon Steingard as a young man. I was presented the science of evolution and since I grew up in a church that taught the world was 6000 years old I ran into the problem of black and white thinking where if the one teaching I received was flawed then the whole thing must be.
By far my favorite video you have ever done!
He seems like an extremely intelligent, humble and articulate man. I hope he finds his way
Trent- Thanks for engaging in these conversations. Speaking of which, can you let the other person finish their thoughts and after hearing them out respond to their point with a summary of what they said to show that you understand them before then responding with your own point? Not every one is as antagonistic and dishonest as James White.
If only I had been half as earnest and good-faith in the pursuit of truth as Jon is when I became an atheist. I hope his seeking is fruitful and that it doesn't lead him the places it led me.
Wow. It’s so wonderful to hear the discussion is authentic and polite. There’s not too much of that in the world.
The whole time I am thinking “he’s looking for the Eucharist”. Nothing more tangible than that. Bring him home, Trent!
Good talk. The fact that he hasn't heard of classical theism before leads me to believe he is VERY reachable. Hope you keep talking to him.
I live in Oceanside and would very much enjoy a tour of the studio
I could never understand the “Gods hidden” argument in context of Romans 1:20
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made”
- Gods creation isn’t just a happenstance, its was created to show God to us. So he is not hidden
-“rationalism” of 200 years ago taken this from us.
-sex, marriage, friendship, love…on and on, don’t exist for anything else then to show us the nature of God. His faithfulness, His joy, His method of creation, His beauty.
- we have been taught that things are just things….they are not…they have an agency beyond themselves. If we understand this we see clearly that God is not hidden.
Trent talks so much that it appears as though the guest didn’t get to finish a full thought at all.
Due to my own life experience, I am so grateful to have a moment of clarity around this doubt. The moment boiled in down to humans attempting to control.
When we think we know what is best (for us..or anything really), it is a slippery slope to not believing in God
(which I can hardly type because it is so infinitely beyond sad and treacherous to even consider that unbelief).
We really have to "see" that we, plain and simple, don't know much...let alone what is "best"..in order to have the relationship with God that He informs us about in Scripture
(aka..a relationship with Him that is True and Righteous)
Thank you, beyond measure, dear Lord God..for your Living Word.. and for everything. In Jesus Christ's Holy name, Amen.
…..releasing that "control' ..along with repenting, to me, seem like a really sound recipe for being saved and The Holy Spirit answering and lingering "questions" ..and all in a single moment..
..all in the name of knowing Jesus Christ as The Way, The Truth and The Life
All Glory to God.
I love dialogues like this. Two people with no animus toward the other's belief system, just trying to discover the truth and letting the conversation go where it goes. These two in particular have a way of blending their personal experience with the objectivity of the truth as they each understand it, and that is even rarer to come across.
However, I have to point out that Trent frequently interrupted Jon, which made an otherwise highly enjoyable conversation very difficult to watch. I am 100% on the Trent side of the debate here, but it seems that in his zeal to challenge Jon he often didn't give Jon the time to express himself. The thumbnail shows Trent listening while Jon talks, but the reality of the video is the opposite.
That being said, I would absolutely watch these kinds of conversations again. Keep up the good work, Trent. God bless you in your ministry.
I have been following Jon’s journey out of evangelicalism and faith deconstruction because I have been on this road as well. Great conversation.
Would you be open minded about hearing a few of the arguments for the divine origins of Catholicism if I said I could prove it to you?
Thank you for this conversation
just a very helpful conversation to listen to.
He's just the disciple Thomas, WAITING TO SEE THE RESURRECTED CHRIST.
One day hopefully he says “My Lord and my God” like Thomas. That’s my prayer.
Thank You Trent for this interview, Great one Jon = Can you do a video explaining Friedrich Nietzsche, I would like to know what is he for Christians or not, also knowing how the Nazis loved him but I also know that others say he was misinterpret, but also Ive read some of his works & it seem selfish & others seemed to be insightful. AUSTRALIA
Great civil conversation. Both guys have great listening skills and patience
3 repetitions of the Angelic Salutation for each of you 🌹🌹🌹 🙏🏻 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻
Impressed by both.
Guest hardly had a chance to talk - reached the point of RUDENESS . I felt cheated because I had hoped to hear what the guest was thinking.
I don't know why, but I was certain of the first reason from his voice.
Lmaooo
Same. It was pretty obvious lol.
Do you think this kind of a comment is charitable or helpful? He humbly (and quite bravely) agreed to be on Trent's podcast in order to tell his story and dialogue about it, and I think if he read a comment like this it would be quite hurtful and off-putting.
@@milesswigart706 And I commend him for that.
However, I have observed a pattern in vegetarians, utilitarians and similar no harm principle people. Like when someone says something like "Are you saved?" or something like that you know that person is a "once saved always saved" person, although logically doesn't have to be.
Whether people with this voice are more drawn to the no harm principle, or no harm principle causes the voice or some other explanation I do not know. But it is a pattern.
I don't want to mock or be hurtful, and I certainly didn't mean to be, but if someone takes what I said for an insult, then he certainly is putting my sentence in a context it was never meant to be in.
Great interview!
Can someone tell me what the name of the painting behind them is?
We saw Hawk Nelson at the Durham Bulls Athletic Park in Durham on Faith Night about 15-20 years ago
1:01:05 Jon explains this brilliantly. A god that doesn't give you enough information to make such a seismic choice of burning forever is at the very least a bit off. Trent's answer was shockingly underwhelming by just outright denying Jon's framing.
Thank you so much, God bless
Him describing his Protestant upbringing resonates with me too well.
Great conversation, I loved Five Iron Frenzy and Relient K. Some of my favorite bands.
YES I loved Relient K!
Jon drew an important distinction between God as the ground of being, and God as a personal being.
Let Jon finish just one sentence !!!!!
This guy needs to read CS Lewis' "Miracles". It will help him with regard to the Incarnation, Resurrection, etc.
I don't understand how a thinking man can either believe nor disbelieve without struggling through the issue.
The very name given to Issac "Isrial" specifically refers to that struggle, meaning he who struggles with God. I find no real problem with that he appears to be honest. God will meet him. But we should expect more of these kind of problems.
It is incredible how drastic the change of belief caused by Martin Luther's heresy. Clearly not the Gospel of the Apostles.
Btw Jacob was called Israel, not Isaac.
Get Audrey Assad on this
Great dialogue!!! I loved the level of respect on both sides.
Amazing interview! Thank you both.
I was a charasmatic kid. It was fun but as an adult I needed to pursue the intellectual side of Christianity. People like Trent Horn and Bishop Barron are an integral part of that process.
Great conversation
When faced with the question of why does God allow bad things to happen Im often look to this quote as a reminder that God is absolute order in a disordered world and all injustices and pain stems from us disobeying him.
"Sometimes I want to ask God why He allows poverty, famine, and injustice when He could do something about it, but l'm afraid
he might just ask me the same question."
I did enjoy Sean McDowells conversations with Jon Steingard. Sean build up a friendship with Jon.
Great Dialogue!
It was very easy to tell what issue was front and center. Your guest tried to minimize his involvement but it was obvious from the first sentence he said.
I guess those of us who God revealed himself to are pretty blessed.
God will reveal himself to him one day as well.
Wow you're a Library.
God Bless you ! :)