Warhammer Weekly 02032021 - Negative Play Experience
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the results of the NPE (Negative Play Experience) Survey and talking through what exactly people think IS NPE.
0:00 News
45:30 Pick of the Week
48:50 Hobby Time
50:40 Negative Play Experience Survey
3:25:40 Summary
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These surveys are such a boon to the community, keep up the outstanding work!
Glad you like them!
After watching you guys the past 6 months I've decided to get into AoS for the first time. Cheers guys, and keep it going!
Welcome aboard!
You know yesterday was National Golden Retriever day! You should have had your doggos on the show more!
MIssed opportunity. :)
Who the hack celebrates a dog race with a day... This world grows more awkward with each day
Who the hack celebrates a dog race with a day... This world grows more awkward with each day
Just wanted to say that I really hope you send this to GW, and that they pay attention to it. It struck me while watching your awesome breakdown that it is baffling that GW doesn't do these sorts of surveys themselves - there is so much excellent information here for them about what people like and don't like.
I'm going to share it out, so they are certainly welcome to it as well. :)
"We don't have enough data to make any changes" - GW AOS FAQ team...
@@TundraGheist It is certainly true that they lack of some datas, nobody can gather all the informations, but they are also totally not honest by saying that too.
I think a series of videos about some of the fundamental tactics and more advanced tips and playstyles for AoS would be amazing. There's nothing really like that in a clear concise video format on RUclips at the moment so I think it'd do really well and be a great starting point for people looking to be more competitive.
I'll see what we can do.
So stoked for the anvil! Going to see how I can rework some Tomb Kings things with it.
Yeah, this will be interesting for sure. :)
In regards to killing heroes too easily with shooting, a couple of things:
1) look out sir should not just be a -1, but also reflect the possibility that a regular soldier may be willing to die for the general/leader. Maybe a 5+ pass along wound or mortal wound.
2) Also the image of a unit of 20 archers all aiming at one guy and hitting him with the same likelihood as a unit of 60 goblins has always stood out to me. Arrows hit each other in the air, there's literally just less surface area to hit etc. At a certain range perhaps, give a debuff of some kind for targeting a single model
Totally agree with point 2, but then they need to make ranged units worth attacking blobs. It also feels bad to shoot a unit of 20 archers at a unit of 60 gobbos and do maybe 5 wounds, which is why I think most ranged units are relegated to sniper duty not crowd control.
English Longbowmen decimated french armored cavalry by being able to snipe them, look it up, bows are way more acurate than you would think, even in groups
Yeah, the 5+ is an interesting idea, especially now that there is a cap on stacking those.
@@marc-andrefecteau1463 I'm not saying they're inaccurate, but shooting a unit of armoured cavalry is not the same as shooting 1 individual, on foot, who may be surrounded by other soldiers
@@ChickenIandlEggs potentially, but maybe that's just an issue of target priority for the player with the shooting.
The biggest issue is the mortal wound on hits, especially combined with reroll all, as it just negates any protections you can provide a hero model.
I love warhammer weekly but these episodes are my absolute favourites! Presenting the analysis from the surveys is much needed and I am so glad you are doing this to help AOS going forwards in the best direction! Keep 'em coming :)
Glad you enjoy it!
Awesome episode guys. Thanks for all the work you put into this, Vince!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Vince, thanks for taking the time to run and analyse this survey. It's a lot of useful data. I personally only really have an NPE when I just get stomped by a superior army (I play Nighthaunt and Sylvaneth, so plenty fit the bill). I don't mind losing, but I'd like to have the feeling that I could have played differently, or have a little more luck, and won the game. But for some games I just sit there and think "there is no universe in which I win this matchup". That just makes me feel like I wasted the 3+ hours spent playing the game.
Yep, that makes perfect sense to me. :)
Slaanesh player here. I love the models, I love the hobby, I am looking forward to painting new miniatures that are coming soon. I intend to spend money on the figures.
But the game itself is... bad. Just bad. I stopped playing until I get the new battle tome and possibly AOS 3.0 and then I might... MIGHT, come back to actual play.
I cannot stress enough how much of a bad design current Slaanesh is. You spoke of interactivity and I agree. With this tome I feel like I cannot even interact with my own army, let alone opponent's. It is like the army is playing me and not the other way around. You have one viable list and one way to play it. You maybe have magic, if the Big Magic Cartels let you have it :D
Most of the time, it is obvious how the game will go based on the matchup.
Playing my army was NPE when it was good, and it remains NPE now that it was nerfed into the ground... It really isn't about winning or loosing.
And that is on top of a rule set that is, to be honest, just bad. GW army design philosophy seems to revolve around extremes - meaning that some armies have all of something while having nothing of something else. These kinds of extremes result in some matchups being extremely easy/hard ie NPE. A notion that certain army is seriously favored against the other is just bad design.
There was a mention that the shooting is necessary because otherwise skink priests would run amok... Well, some armies just do not have access to any tools that would mitigate this. (Looking forward to those glorious archer models NGL).
Additional problem is that AoS is essentially a game of deathtouch tag - things die to easy and too fast. Hence why activation wars are so toxic, you either touch the opponent first or he touches you. Sure, that is not the case if you have a unit of Liberators brawling with a unit of Chaos Warriors, they will stay there locked in melee until T5, but no one plays those. This kind of explosiveness only increases the role of dice in the game (especially the dreaded DT roll).
Not to mention how rules encourage certain unit formations. I will die before I deploy my cavalry in a conga line sideways towards the opponent. That is just... NO.
To sum up, I don't mind loosing. I play a variety of miniature wargames and I am losing most because I am not the greatest player in the world. I probably have the best win rate in AoS. That does not change the fact that AoS is the most unfun tabletop wargame I have played. I feel like I as a player bring the least to the table in this game. Probably why I win more here than with the other games :D
Here is hoping for good things for the new tome.
@@VinceVenturella Yup, I am literally holding my breath :)
Thanks for putting in all the work to collect and compile this data. It was enlightening.
Glad it was helpful!
Great show! Gave me ideas for future show suggestions: fixing shooting in AoS. Introduction to strategy in AoS (due to that bit about player experience being influencial)
It's true, there are many more surveys and topics for sure.
One more example of a badass. Gavespawn Doombull with the Mutating Gnarlblade. With a couple CP he’ll take down almost anything.
I’ve had Archaon re-roll a save roll of 1 into a 6 to only take 17 damage from him. I’ve had him 1 shot a Scar-vet on Carnosaur, do 20 damage to Durthu etc. Even without the artefact I’ve had Doombull win a dual with a Bloodthirster, after he’s chewed through some Skullcrushers.
Doombulls are the best
He's never worked for me, I love him, but he always lets me down. :)
@@VinceVenturella you can watch me play game 1 of the Titans of Ghur event on the Honest Wargamer for some hot Doombull and Bullgor action ;)
I love how you take the time and energy to make these surveys. A lot of people have strong opinions about the state of the game, but you back your stuff with numbers. One can only hope that GW does stg similar as well (even if the results are not public) !
Yeah, opinions are good and I think mine are informed, but it's much better when I can back it up with real data. :)
Again, a great and very informative video. Thank you Vince.
Glad you enjoyed it
I know that this is an older video, but specificially regarding the discussion you had about how to deploy chaff correctly and such - would you know any resource that talks about this in depth? I had seen an AoS Coach Video on the topic, but maybe there are other resources - thanks :)
I'm not sure if there is really any other videos specifically on it, your best bet might be battle reports from people like Seasons of War, where you can see it in action.
I think chaff units are boring. When you listed having two layers of chaff just as standard I'm sitting here sad.
I didn't choose to play my army so I can spam lines of disposable garbage. I want to play in this epic high fantasy Exalted meets Planescape setting where my hulking golden armoured warriors carrying absurdly oversized weapons smash into giants and demons and horrible bone amalgam creations.
If I want to be playing games where screening and skirmishing to control space and delay movement and so forth is the order of the day then I'll be playing a historical game. There are tons of them out there and they are amazing fun. But I'm looking for something different out of AoS.
I want to be excited about every unit in my army. And it just becomes a drag on that energy to be required to bring a bunch of stuff that I don't like just to 'be allowed to play' and chaff units fall into that bracket.
Part of that is knowing your community and knowing how everyone wants to play. I think playing Narratively playa that better.
Yeah, it never seemed weird to me. I like sort of mixed arms forces with lots of different unit types. I like having those units because they let me control the board, move around and chafe, but also hold objectives. It feels like they are a valuable part of the army (even when sometimes, that job is just to die). :)
@@VinceVenturella It's less that 'they exist' because, as you point out, it's an enjoyable tool for people to use.
It becomes a problem, for me, when I feel that I don't have a choice in bringing those units. I basically have to have chaff screens because of the way AoS plays.
You dismissed 1st Turn Alpha Strikes as not a true problem because you've got 2 lines of chaff, set X inches apart to prevent double pile in and such. And that's just something you do as standard. I consider that the game is making you do that 'as standard' to be a problem.
Tom talked about not finding so many things to be NPE because he goes in with the understanding of the game and that sets his expectations. I find the expectation of bringing a big chunk of chaff to be a problem in itself.
@@sirbobulous That makes sense. And just ot be clear, I wasn't dismissing the problem, more just saying the problem surprised me personally, as I never really thought about it. BUt it's a good note.
Every army throughout history, both real and fictionary, has BATTLELINE TROOPS and disposable front-line dudes. That's literally the foundation of warfare (Bulk of main forces, then specialists, then leaders)
You cant have Giants without having Normals....you can't have Elite Troops without having Regular Joes!
There were some comments on how armies like IDK and Fyreslayers were seeing NPE at relatively high rates. I think you might want to consider that an IDK list with 40 - 80 Namartii or Fyreslayer lists builds from start collecting box contents have a very different experience than Eel or Hearthguard Spam. This was not a focus on tournament play so a much higher list diversity is to be expected.
It's a good point, certain lists maybe even many are fine, but the bad lists color the perception of the whole army.
Amazing study! I didn't fill out the survey because I think I'm too new in the hobby most of NPE are me going "oh shit that is what that army does?" And I didn't want to skew data
All good, glad the data was enjoyable. :)
Great show, I always love these. Often results which go against expectations. One thing I’d like to see is what abilities people love when they have them. What makes you feel strong or a having a good experience in game. Because some of the ones we see here could also come up there. For example I love playing with magic, and wouldn’t have come back to AoS maybe two years ago because magic as such was so meh. But if I look at what most people play right now, I don’t wonder why magical dominance is high up there as an NPE, same for shooting (both are clearly also representing the interactivity issue though). For most people magic is mostly annoying when it’s strong. But GW might miss out on attracting new players who enjoy certain ways to play. So I think it’s good that there are a few armies which can play like that, but GW should find out a way to increase interactivity for those playstyles, and also keep a core of factions which play mostly in the melee range (which seems what most people are enjoying).
This is a really great point, I think a positive play survey is exactly what we need.
I don't know if anybody has mentioned it yet, but the thing in the rumour engine could also very well be something from the upcoming Kislev range?
I mentioned it in the show, I think it's coincidence. Given the time frame on Old World, it would seem unlikely they have any models yet (we are still about 2 years at minimum out from their discussed launch).
Great video. Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
This was a fascinating video. Thanks for putting it together! As a Beast of Chaos player I think NPE doesn't bother me as much for a couple of reasons:
1) My army is an easy 1-drop so I can almost always decide whether I want to be the one rushing across the table or not.
2) Shooting my troops is basically worthless since there are around 200 of them. Shooting at the heroes either doesn't matters because I expect them to die or they are hidden behind the herdstone and are difficulty to actually see. Also shooting heavy armies usually only get 1 turn to fire before I charge their units with garbage and force them to shoot at units that don't matter.
3) My build, at least, is about maximizing summoning points and zoning objectives. I can easily bring a chariot or cockatrice in every turn and since I 1 drop I will usually gum up the field until the game is over. This makes things like Activation Wars or anything that cause my guys to die a horrible death not really matter unless it is very extreme.
On a fun note, you can totally make some sweet foot heroes with the Anvil of Apotheosis!
It's funny to me how close BoC could be to a really good and scary army. They have a lot of advantages, but the weakness and a few really weak warscrolls really hold them back. I think with the right warscroll changes and a spcial ability or two around battleshock, and they could really be beyond potent.
Tom: what does Owen Jacksson have that i dont have?
Fyreslayers have a strong look that noone likes so pants and less silly hats would make them palatable. Someone must have made a conversion that looks good. And for a combined dwarf faction are we talking the old city ones + fyreslayers via a broken realm or do you think they will ruin the good thing they have with KO folding in the drunken babies, old sculpts and KO into the unified dwarfen front of Duardin?
Not having the underworlds warbands playable in Warcry seems like leaving money on the table tbh so i do hope they rectify that going forward
I agree, it's just so obvious.
Great episode guys. Vince, when you started talking about the player archetype and needing a small dude to take out big dudes I started saying "Knight-Questor" repeatedly to myself as well! :D:D
Exactly!
Damn I play Khorne an I’m chill AF. I beat the best of them and lost to the worst of them. Let’s have fun and roll some dice
After all Khorne cares not!
There you go, more proff that Khorne players are awesome.
Khorne always wins as long as blood flows :D
I love playing Khorne It’s not the most competetive book but when I build lists I have fun options and they play out on the table as I think they will (except Bloodletters) Most of the time I get to play with my toys before I get killed and have to remove them from the table.
As said before We sometimes wins against the best if I play at the top of my game and loose to the the worst armys of I play poorly
@@gertat75 I play reapers of vengeance min gore pilgrims battalion. Mortals are very weak right now without slaves to darkness. The best the book has is unfettered fury+Skarbrand Leave none alive and the unfettered fury command pile in. Spamming with crimson crown. Unfortunately the mortals are so bad that 30 man blobs of Bloodletters are necessary. And spamming 10 man reaver squads for bloodtite is a sure way to lose in this format. Large units with killing power is the new way
RE: BoC attitude to shooting and alpha strikes..
If your shooting options were Ungor Raiders, Cygors, Skyfires, Chimera and Cockatrices, you'd probably think shooting isnt a big deal either ;)
Also, you are right about BoC not caring about alphas due to easy screen access. But the other part of the equation is that BoC are generally pretty happy if people decide to charge into herdstone range turn 1/2. Please, be my guest....
It's a good point on all counts.
Awesome show guys
Glad you enjoyed it
This is why I play defenders of lethis, no one complains about my army. It has some really good units (eels, hearthguard) but they don't get turned up to 11 with allegiance abilities.
It's a good point.
Fascinating as always. Also good to see the top level breakdown of armies played. Doesn't look like my store's meta at all as there are loads of us playing BOC and Slaanesh! :)
Also, just need to add in solidarity that I too have a Fyreslayers army. They could be the ugliest models but they're still dwarves.
Glad you enjoyed!
Great show as always and I forgot to say was nice to see you both in a Warhammer community article, you should have advertised it in one of your shows.
Regarding this show, it was a great analysis but I think certain conclusions are a bit too uncertain to be called. The poll was about which army we play and what NPE we experienced while we could select multiple armies we play. So the NPE could have been with one or more of the played armies in case of multiple choices. For example I played LoN at their top and stopped because I couldn’t lose in my local group, had lots of fun with Nighthaunt since then where I did experience NPE, but I also have an FEC army that I play when I want to be more competitive. So my answers would have given points to all those armies where really my NPE comes from my really synergistic heroes being shot down on turn 1/max 2 because I can never choose who starts as my battalions don’t cover enough of the army to do one drop.
And they survive longer only if they are in the underworld but then there’s no synergies on the table...
And the second point I also wanted to comment on is about alpha strikes. AoS is a game that in average takes 2-3h to play, I shouldn’t lose the match after the first 10-15m because I don’t know how to deploy efficiently. Otherwise let’s call a game of deploy and never roll a dice, no purpose in having 5 rounds if all that counts is what happens before. And to that point the fact that certain armies can almost always decide who starts the first round because of battalions other armies don’t have, creates a great disparity between armies.
Good thoughts all around. :)
The cynic in me tells me the foremost reason we don't have any "mythic archetype" foot heroes is that for the most part that'd be 32-40mm bases and GW would rather not sell you a 15-20 USD model that is 25-30% of your army list when the other option is a 50-100 USD huge monster / deamon / diorama that can bring more money (and more hype)
You may be onto something there.
Question: When you guys are talking about 'vanguard wing' for stormcast being toxic and broken, what exactly are you referring to? Vanguard have been out for ages and raptors/aetherwings are good, but I wouldn't call them broken? I thought the only toxic/broken thing recently for SCE is the battalions for the stormkeeps, specifically the redeploy, which is more about shoving liberators up your opponent's nose rather than anything from Vanguard? Or have I been playing stormcast all this time and missed something completely broken??
So several years ago, pre-AOS 2, there was a batallion called Vanguard Wing that used big hordes of liberators that could teleport and and redeploy into combat directly, every round. It was quite toxic and stuck around far too long.
@@VinceVenturella Ahh I see, that was pre-my triumphant return to warhammer and love affair with The Golden Bois! Thanks Vince.
I would love to have a halberd whielding champion in full plate that can actually stand up to a monster. I mean, in a world overflowing with magic, who would argue with that one guys armor being a bit special?
also, high but conditional rend values are what we are missing I think.
Agree on both counts.
Cool show. Really enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Is the issue not more with low Rend rather than high Saves then?
Got me thinking though, I wonder if there be an alternative rule to represent models with good armour?
It's a good question, I think there is several areas we haven't explored with armor.
@@VinceVenturella Perhaps incorporate this topic in a future video? 🤞
In the armies played section. To be fair to OBR it makes sense that there are more Ogre players even though they got a book at the same time because many people already had ogre armies from Fantasy and earlier in AOs
A fair point for sure.
Order fights order, destruction fights order, death fights order, chaos fights all of them weakened oh but then godrakk headbutts archaeon, declares himself a winner and walks off into the sunset...
Hmm, familiar.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Someone! please tell me which episode Tom talks about lumineth being Hashut's worshippers?!
I believe it was in the original Lumineth Reivew.
Great show as always Vince. Some really interesting data. On the NPE Sentiment Factor slide and Seraphon, I am a Seraphon player and have two reasons why I clicked lots of options on that question.
First, I often win games but still have an NPE. I don't want to stomp my opponent - I want to win perhaps, but I want to fin a fun and fair game. With Seraphon it is often really easy to accidentally win and have an NPE (because Seraphon have very few bad options). I have only ever played Kroak in tournament-style games because I do not enjoy playing with him most of the time.
Second, this survey was over the last two years. Because of where my part of the world has been with Covid since last March, i.e. when the new Seraphon book came out, I have played far more games with the old Seraphon book than with the new in that time. Perhaps I should have ignored all the games my old Seraphon got murdered, but the survey didn't tell me to only think of games since my last battletome release in the last two years, so I did include those NPE games in my answers.
In short, my high answer rate on what constitutes an NPE is partly reflecting what I know my opponent and I don't enjoy playing in the new book, and partly all my games with the old, pretty awful book. I hope that helps! :)
That makes complete sense.
1:12:10 I suspect the high No rate may also be a factor of limited local metas. If you only ever play against 4 or 5 different armies, and your friends/FLGS attendees tend to play fat middle armies... It might be less of a thing than for the local metas that include a deep-pockets Chad who chases the strong stuff?
Yep, I think I mentioned this in there, that basically, it could be an extention of the small play groups I suspect most have. :)
On the actual topic - NPE is personal, while there are universal threads, people look for different things in games so Tom's flippant point at the beginning is not wrong for Tom but that is not an expectation you can/should have for all players. To me the crux with rules based NPE is it discourages players for putting what they like on the tabletop - from both directions. So it is not just the person with a zero trick army that suffers, but also the player who has spent a year plus beautifully painting an army that happens to offer very negative play for their opponents so they feel bad fielding it. If I personally had to define it, it would be when the opponents rules mean you effectively do get to play a game. I am fine with glass hammers if they are glass, or avoidance if it can only do so for x time then it is lights out. As then the game become who can play into the strengths the best to win the game, and both players cool toys should shine.
In some ways core mechanics of AoS don't help, limited variance in stats, dice and action options means certain rules interactions will always create a hard counter. As an aside, the whole melee range thing - change it to no of bases and exclude anything bigger than 40 mm. Also to preface to the next point, I also think the whole micro-movement in combat and piling in frankly just needs go in a game which can have hundreds of models on a table - clever tricks aren't strategy they a rules exploitation (negative conations not intended but it summarises best). It also slows the game down
On the point of skill cap design it is a real design minefield especially in a minis game with a high investment. As the army needs to have a base level functionality or a less experience player buys an army that just gets smashed and gets the message they are losing with a great army. However, if that base level is middling the skill cap elements then make it oppressive. Which is a real shame as playing a tech army and unlocking that can be one of the most rewarding experiences in wargaming. In many ways this is where borrowing from bloodbowl for a tier list for armies may be an idea - it sets expectations and allows clear discussion and means you can have skill cap armies but set the base level lower.
Really great thoughts all around.
Thanks for looking into this! The NPE analysis is such an interesting segment. As a Sylvaneth player, I find myself agreeing with some things, and not others. Then when I look from my Beastclaw or Maggotkin perspective I agree and disagree with a different set of things. My guess is the things to look for here are the things that are seen as NPE across most or all of the armies. I am looking forward to the GHB2021, as 2020 was a bit disappointing for me. Guessing AoS 3.0 will launch soon though.
I agree, I feel big changes are on the way soon.
I never played WFB, and stopped paying attention entirely after 4th ed, but I hear tell of Herohammer from the mid 2000s. It seems the hero archetype comes and goes in the crunch, maybe it's time for them to come back into fashion?
I am looking for a very specific type of hero. ;)
Vince needs a hero
He's holding out for a hero 'till the end of the night
He's gotta be strong, and he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
Vince needs a hero
He's holding out for a hero 'till the morning light
He's gotta be sure, and it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life
Larger than life
could you maybe share links to these decks?
I'm going to find a place to host the raw data.
Love Vinci’s sound bites. Do you know what you do before you fine tune? You tune..... Here comes Kathy 30:32. You are never going to let him forget it. He needs to embrace it and stop fighting it.
Oh, she loves this. :)
Gordrak wants a big chunk of the spear of malus so he can find the big worm with the realmgate to the eightpoints
There you go, thank you. :)
Vince, your Power Point Kung Fu is impressive! You manage to make slides compelling, informative and not boring. If you know someone in the rules team of GW, you need to send them that, and your other surveys....they should see that as a gold mine! GW if you are looking....listen to Vince!
Very much apprecaited. :)
I think this is one of your best shows.
Thank you, this one was really fun.
Idk don't like multiple fights because they come from things like death frenzy or terrorgiest. So even if you make a good combat and strike first you will still lose your unit because they get a combat anyway.
This is likely a good point.
Awesome! This one's going to be a vital resource for the community for a long time.
One note on the alpha strike discussion - even if it's mostly an issue for new players, I think it might have merited a bigger share of the discussion since those are the folks the game needs to impress in order to grow. It's not enough to say more players need to learn deployment if there's anything GW design can do about it too. I worry the prevalence of alpha strike hate in this survey indicates a greater issue in the community at large, since the viewership here might skew towards enfranchised/experienced players, who are less likely to have a problem with it.
You're exactly right, I think this needs a video or show on deployment.
I started with StD a year before the battletome dropped (having played chaos in warhammer fantasy 5th ed to 8th ed), had some fun but started DoT soon after (old battletome) and had much more fun and success. Had a NPE against FEC and DoK they were just too good against my army at the time. I only really play my tzeentch for tournaments.
That makes sense to me. :)
Know what I'm dying to see a study into? How armies played/=1 NPE votes correlate to buy-in price. Because I have a suspicion that stuff like Nighthaunt and SCE are high in armies played because they're cheap too.
that's also a point. Yet I for example try not to jump onto the hot rules garbage GW has just released. I chose a army by style and by fun for me AND my opponent.
It would be interesting to put a collection price, it's a little squishy, as some armies also have more availability on the secondary market, as that also skews prices down.
@@VinceVenturella Yeah, I'm not sure how you'd gather data for that, because I'm not sure there's a large sample for "Price per average 2k list" etc, but I'd wager stuff like Fyreslayers are at the bottom end of the collectors ratings just through pure price per model.
Vince about war hammer total war having bad ass hero’s that only really happened in the last update. With the last update they got more mass so they wouldn’t get destroyed from a hero on a monster charging them. That would be cool to have really good foot hero’s in AoS but I would still probably run mounted hero’s for mobility and for the fun of it.
I am okay for both. :)
@@VinceVenturella oh and about the rumor engine I think it’s lizard men shields and you said something could be photoshopped out if so it could be a new monster for them.
I just had my second worst NPE experience in AOS (1st was Slaanesh). Playing against Lumineth who dominated my magic phase (never got a spell off), they dominated their phase (basically auto cast 4 spells per turn and at best I was attempting to dispel 4 spells but he had +2 to to cast rolls. He had loads of shooting to wipe away all my heroes and his units hit like a truck in melee. Finally he has a spell that doubles my command point requirements which basically killed off half of my armies abilities right then and there. While his units melted quickly in combat he still tabled me on turn 4 with ease. The total package was literally stopping me from playing my army and was just terrible to face.
Can you please create some merch designs with "Is Owen Jackson here?!" on? I've heard (from you) that the man is a legend.
Oh, this needs to happen.
I think NPE is bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. If for example enough people say it’s not fun to face Seraphon or that it’s not fun to play BoC then you will feel that before you’ve even rolled a dice
It can likely influence it. :)
Also, I missed out on this survey, but I do consider myself a Khorne main. And I have to agree. There are definitely some things in the army that are poorly designed. But the army as a whole is fun to me, and often when I lose I recognize it is my own fault (usually for not screening effectively). Using Blood Tithe really frustrates me because of Use or Lose, but you're right, the reward for losing units feels good, and being able to redeem it for something useful is great.
Yeah, the consolation prize is awesome in Khorne, it just turns things right around, even when you lose stuff.
👍🏻👍🏻. Could it b something hanging of the bottom of some sort of ship maybe 🤷♂️👍🏻👍🏻
Yeah, may very well be. :)
I'm down for destruction in the starter set, but I can't see ironjawz. They've used it to launch new stuff in the past but ironjawz feels like a pretty complete faction overall.
Personally i think a new faction is more likely, like an entirely new orruk clan (greenskinz or speed freekz maybe?) Or a new grot tribe like gitmob or scuttlers.
Although spiderfang could definitely go in for a model line refresh...
Either way if destructions in the box i'll be happy.
It does seem more and more likely.
A bit late bit some feedback, it would neat to see a chart of the degrees of competitiveness people look for in their game. For example, you could measure if people are playing to win, more casual games but somewhat competitive games, or beer n pretzels throw a cool list together and go.
You alluded to this during your talk about Khorne players, but it would be neat to see as a chart. I think it would help give a bit more context as to what decisions players are making in regards to armies played vs percieved npe.
Yes, this is something that I am very much interested in, I am just not sure people are going to be able to answer honestly. But it's something I want to see answered.
Npe Experience First Turn Alpha should be split in melee and shooting.
Because I picked it and I actually mean alpha shooting.
Against KO as example... If you screen properly you will be forced to go first and the alpha will be delayed to second turn. If you go aggressive you will be first turn shot.
Also the npe does not mean an inexperience in playing against it. It can be negative even if you know how to counter
I am fairly experienced btw. With years of play in both 40k and aos
Yeah, no issue, and you are right, shooting was brought up and that's a great example, thats why I hedged so hard on the inexperience thing. I am sure that can happen, but I am positive it's not all that, not even close. That's a really bad experience for sure, the alpha shooting is just one of those things that are almost completely a total feel bad.
Could the rumour engine be the gutplate of a new plastic maneater?
I could only wish it to be true. :)
I agree with the investment of shooting. Like in my beast if I decide to kill a support hero its roughly 60 raiders hoping to make that kill. It's also 480 points shooting. My opinion is 99% of shooting should be 4s 4s no rend 1 dmg. Aka it should be support dmg
the funniest thing, is one of the most powerful shooting units is 5s/5s, no rend 1 damage...
Yeah, it just feels like it needs to be more of a commitment.
Another very interesting survey and discussion, thanks! I just started playing LRL(Zaitrec) and played my first game against Slaanesh. Even not knowing the game (and my army) that well, I was still like “damn some of my stuff seems OP”.. Needless to say I won 12-3...beginners luck? Lol
It's a tough match up for Slaanesh.
Not surprised that Beasts didn't find too much (except for Spell Dominance) particularly crippling. We are all tricks, no punch.
I would think that the votes for hit/wound debuffs would be a lot of BoC players.
It's such a fascinating army.
Hot Take: AoS 3 will not have wound overflow freeing up design space for high damage heroes that are good at killing monsters but only ok against infantry.
I'd have to think on that one. It would have a large impact, that's for sure.
Seraphon are in the right place on the chart as the battletome came out when covid hit. Vince's under-costed kroakx300 skink lists that maybe 0.5% of Seraphon players have actually played (on TTS or something) are of course not going to be reflected in the data. Up until that point it was a solid 2 years of ass kickings.
I remember playing my hardest before the battletome with models I liked and with heavy summoning spam. It was harrowing and many many losses against equally skilled opponents with better armies or better opponents with similar+ armies.
THis is actually a good point that somehow escaped me. You are dead on. That's recency bias on my part.
I think the only caveat re slide one, is that people may have some armies just because they have owned them forever. I'd like to see data of "What armies do you own?" "Of these how many have you purchased or added to in last 12 months?" and "Which have you actually played in the last 3 months?"
Yeah, I might do a play survey next, because that's actually tough to pry apart. I have at times went 6 months or more without putting my Skaven on the table, but if you asked me, I am a skaven player for sure.
12:08 Its like God and Jesus. Two stat blocks, one deity.
There we go.
I was thinking about the Ossiarch data point that showed they had the fewest complaints about NPE.
I was thinking that a big selling point of that army's playstyle is the survivability. It's enjoyable to watch the enemy run over and dash themselves against the rocks of your army. The power fantasy is 'you cannot hurt me' and seeing the enemy try again and again and again to hurt you and fail is the actual draw. So many of those types of NPE are in fact positives. You get to fight first? Cool, now I get my little power fantasy rush earlier in the turn! You fight twice? Awesome, now I get my endorphin hit twice as often! Etc.
I think you're very correct on that.
Even with knowledge of Alpha Striking, (I'v read all battletomes, own 7 armies, and played with 13 of the current 20+ ones) It's almost impossible to avoid Alpha striking SHOOTY armies for many armies, perhaps the statistics in this reflect the combination? not just the lack of knowledge of cannon fodder screens, and castle deployments?
When it comes to sniping heroes I deffinetly think we need something more here, maybe increase it to -2 to hit for ranged And 5+ damage swap to nearby unit against mortals (both shooting and spells)
No, I think that is very true, and I speak about that a little later in talking about alpha strikes. It's hard to outdeploy shooting armies, espcially teleporting ones. This is challenge that they need to address, armies that can combine long range shooting, high rend shooting and high mobility, that's the challenge.
I know I'm a little late on this, but I found the fact that fat middle armies were being played more often than the strongest armies totally unsurprising.
I shelved my Disciples of Tzeentch army for a year or so before their newest battletome came out, and I was really excited to play the new rules. Neither my friends or I are hyper competitive but we understand the game and play our typically subpar lists to win. I brought an Eternal Conflagation one drop Changehost list (pre-nerfs) and just had an AWFUL night of games. I won every single match easily, to the point that my opponent was flustered and I was bored.
I actually got rather disheartened after that night of games, but thankfully this story has a happy ending. Firstly, Changehost was reigned in a bit - and secondly, I decided to drop the Eternal Conflagation flamer spam and instead make a mixed Mortals/Daemons Guild of Summoners list.
It's an absolutely subpar Tzeentch list, but I genuinely have fun playing it! :D
Makes total sense.
Underworlds is simple etc, true. its also still the best competitive game that GW has produced, theres no reason to move on from it to warcry.
Totally fair.
35:50 I think that's GWs thing now, they want centerpiece characters to be centerpiece models. And if they have to be smaller dudes, they make dioramas now like Shrine of St. Katherine or Katakros.
I suppose I am fine with a diorama thing, but I really just want a few billy bad asses. ;)
I swear I never get this exited for charts
These are the charts we need at work each day. ;)
I haven't played AOS yet but am nearly ready to play (just need to assemble 2 more models to at least field an army). The last couple of weeks though had me discouraged about getting into AOS but this show has made me more encouraged to play.
The main thing that was discouraging was the announcement of Broken Realms: Teclis and then a few days later showing LRL getting a large number of new units (12?). Having watched battle reports it is an army I think is very broken before the new stuff.
I am more encouraged since it is nice to see that the vast majority of players have and play more "fair" armies so it should be easy to have fun games.
It is still a little bit discouraging to see that GW doesn't really understand what is and isn't "negative" by releasing all of the new LRL stuff and of course not addressing certain things in the Winter FAQ.
Yeah, there are some problem spots, but I will say that overall, as someone who plays at minimum once a week, most armies are so much fun, the real key is we as players (unfortunately) have to step up and get the game the rest of the way there.
Vince - the orruk megaboss on foot is nails
He's okay, mathematically, he gets punked by most any monster (as well he should, if he at 140 points was beating down 300-400 point monsters, that would be a problem), though he can do work the round he goes active with destroyer.
@@VinceVenturella but this is a good idea you have stumbled upon and also an opportunity to expand the game further. But we don't want everything at the same time right?
I also assume you mean generic '5 wound' heroes and not named ones?
@@acejustice1 Yeah, some generic 5-6W heroes that are purely combat focused. :)
@@VinceVenturella lord of pain is a small step in the right direction, seems they need 2 weapon profiles to cut the mustard though or even if some artifacts boosted them
I feel like AOS 3.0 really needs top adopt the 40k rule where characters at a certain wound threshold are un-targetable to shooting. The -1 to hit was fine when shooting wasn't so prevalent, but the number of armies now that can just gut armies by deleting all their buffing pieces is the epitome of NPE to me. Heroes buffing units is one of the core mechanics of the game and armies like KO, LRL, Cities ect just say "nope".
That rule would be really huge in AoS, I am generally against these kind of systemic fixes. They are too strong and have a lot of unintended consequences on a system that wasn't built ot have them and scrolls that were written without them in mind. As always, I prefer a targetted fix, there should be much less high rend, long range, high mobility shooting, then you can actually just protect characters from positioning.
@@VinceVenturella I agree that I always prefer a tactical alternative to blanket rules when possible. Im also interested in seeing the impact a potential smaller board size would have, it had a huge impact on Tau in 40k.
I wanted to comment on the last pair of slides, with armies based on NPE.
I personally find it rather fun because I started WH, because i liked the Skaven models, (anthropomorphic rodents FTW). And I bought the Carrion Empire Box to get me started, which got me into FEC...and those two are the MIDDLEST armies. Then i fell in love with squigs, and out of love of 40 blocks of 25mm models, so started trolls. Then not even a year ago i owned 2 Seraphon SC, and a Serphon Battle Box from a year or two back, then bought my first Seraphon Tome on release.
So now I have an army that has 80 skinks, that is no fun for anyone to play(but gets a chance at a tourney in April in MI), so what do i usually end up playing? Trolls, because i know itll be a fair game, no one will complain, and sometimes you just have some insane moments, like Hand o Gorking a Hag, behind a lord of Afflictions, and hitting and wounding on all 6 vomits to one shot him, to my Dankboss SQUISHING a lord Castellant, (go 6 on the die) to the look on the opponent's face when you tell them the 4 saves they failed from the Rockguts is 12 wounds, even with all of that, no one every complains, and a good time is usually had (freaking 2 ties against Stormcast....why, stupid secondary objectives)
Troll armies are right in that most fun place where people are always happy to play against them, win or lose.
I don't play AoS, but I still watched the whole presentation, because game metas are interesting to me, and I see so many of these things echoed in other minis games I have played. The specifics are different, but NPEs definitely exist in other games, and they of the come back to the same point--single models/units getting too much love while others suffer, and the removal of interaction or counterplay. A lot of power pieces can be forgiven if there's a way to play around them; where NPEs come in is when they're unavoidable and you need to just accept that you're playing a worse version of the game you like for a while.
A lot of food for thought regardless of the specific game in quesiton.
I'm glad it was helpful and interesting. :)
How to fix magical dominance: stop giving these super powerful wizards big bonuses to unbind as well.
Let kroak keep his +4 to cast, but take away his +4 to unbind.
I would rather we just bring it all back down to like +1. ;)
What really puts me off is the pillowfist VS burning rod of Doom-Metal. I always feel like that when playing S2D (I neither use Bela'kor nor Archaon, imo Archaon is a whiny oversized Chaos-Joytoy that used to be a priest of Sigmar...) :D
Great show, very nice results! I hope GW listens and we might be spared another LRL/Hedonites Situation.
Concerning Idoneth: The thing with idoneth is, that you actually want to play Namarti (the foot sloggers), yet they're just bad and all the mechanics to revive them and so forth don't work because they die in droves and then flee the battle. That is causing quite a lot of frustration with the army - Yet most of these issues were fixed with BR: Morathi which let's me field a well mixed Idoneth force, which is fun for both players, in an effective manner.
Yeah, I think BR: Morathi really showed what these books could do for an army.
Fyreslayers are also low because they are just so expensive to get any of the "good" stuff.
Do you mean in dollars or points?
@@VinceVenturella Dollars
As a Chaos Daemons player, that Total War Warhammer 3 trailer didn't really do it for me. While I look forward to the game, I can not for the life of me comprehend why their first choice would be the daemons of the blood god in a trailer where they're not allowed to show any blood at all.
It's a strange choice. Horrors would have been cool.
They always sell blood DLC/unlock though.
I agree that the game suffers from the lack of the powerful on-foot hero. I see that stemming from a lack of named characters, which in turn requires lore development and appropriate miniature development time, and I'd say there hasn't been enough time for that to happen yet . BUT, who needs a powerful on-foot hero when you have actual gods (or their avatars) leading your armies?
Well, I am looking more for the middle ground, something between the 100 point foot heroes and the 800 point gods. ;)
Tom might be joking but i would not be surprised if Fyreslayers and Dispossed get souped and then rather than a ALL THE DWARVES book broken realms gives us some 'alliance of land and sea' style battallion thats KO and this land dwarf allying when needs must but its the lodges and dispossessed in particular trying to retake their homes.
Also inb4 the Orcs finally break down the gates to excelsis to find it was conquered by Tzeentch years ago. Give both of them anything to do.
No, I think that would be the way to save it, KO just seem like they belong on their own.
I want vampires on foot with that power level. And a very killy Skaven Deathmaster.
YES, Deathmaster.
Skaven player here explaining my fear of alpha strikes. About to make a counter-intuative statement as well. I treat rat-men at being a great anvil army. Just chunks of wounds that I dare an opponent to go through. Unlike true anvils however, Skaven can only achieve this with experience. When I roll up to a table, I know my stuff is gonna die, no one model is precious. Blobs of models can be anvils when we control when they die and not how many die. Its a tempo thing. Now alpha strikes completely throw the tempo of losing models off (well duh) but hurts in particular for the vermintide strategy. It was mentioned that skaven suffer from battalion choice as well, and that creates a inescapable scenario of getting hit first against an alpha strike army list. Our strengths also are tempo reliant, shooting and magic and retaliation every players turn isn't gonna happen. Our strengths, along with the rest of the army, have no actual saves and can just get destroyed by a stiff breeze. We've got tricks don't get me wrong but 'dem tricks are squishy.
That's totaly fair. :)
Slaaneshi champions don't have dust ups I believe the the technical term is slap fight
That's a good point.
For me, increase Rend (in melee, good call Tom) and reduce mortal wound spam would be two good improvements.
It means that my armour that I am paying for and am able to often interact with by using cover or by using spells or that have abilities to reroll 1s or whatever all get to come into play but you as the opponent also get to line up your armour breakers and such.
Mortal Wounds bypass that entire part of the game, remove my entire ability to react to it. I either have an 'ignore MWs' ability or I don't.
I think that is completely right. :)
Also, I think shooting ranks very high because how obsolete low wound heroes are because of it.
Also, not enough data yet to realise LRL and Seraphon need the nerfbat right in the teeth! :D
I would say swing away. ;)
Here's my crazy prediction: At the end of Broken Realms, Archaon breaks through the Gates of Azyr... and finds it empty.
I'm not against that ... I'm holding out for a crackling beam of light and [Insert: Thor Arrives in Wakanda moment]. 🔨⚡💥
How very dragon age of you
That would be crazy for sure.
That moment when you question yourself as to how in fact....diameter works.
It's like magnets.
I would like to say that I really dissagree regarding Lumineth and your views on them mate.. It is an army with many weaknesses, extremely slow, no chaf units (not even from allies) and can be easily affected my antimagic armies among other things.. I agree that total eclipse can be annoying for certain armies and that the 80 sentinels build can certainly create bad play experiences, but you really exaggerate claiming they are that powerful or offending as an army.. Of course this may change with the new units and I may be wrong, but as they are now they are a mid-high faction at best in my opinion... That said kudos for taking the time to do this survey and compile all these data! It was an interesting show!
I agree with the movement, what I will say is they have pretty consistently performed in the top 5 when you look at the TTS data and certainly been performing in the tourneys as well. I don't think the Sentinel spam is actually a good list, it's just NPE in losing list form. I am saying I think they earn their place as tier 1, but the new units could really push them into overdrive.
@@VinceVenturella According to the data from the spanish guys of DKHM twitter.com/aosdkhm?s=21 Lumineth are nowhere near as high performing as Tier 1 would suggest.. Personally as it is one of the armies I own I have played thus far 21 games of which I have a 10/11 win/loss ratio. Granted my opponent pool due ti the pandemic is quite limited and I'm still trying to figure out rhe army but I don't feel them as strong as they are portrayed by many people.. Regarding the 80 sentinels list I agree that it can't win tournaments as while it will pulverize some armies it will auto-lose vs a few of them and hero scoring scenarios. it is NPE though. All in all I believe we'll need time to really assess the actual tier of al armies that have come/will come during the pandemic. I made the comment here to give you a different perspective on the matter.. :-)
I like 5 point increments because it makes it easier to have lists hit 2000 on the nose :-p
I mean, mathematically I am not sure that is true. ;)
I think we don´t have a foothero with a 1k faces is because we have "gods" in AOS. When you bring this "Godkillers" you move the focus away from the gods of AOS and demystifice Models like Nagash, Teclis
I mean, don't get me wrong, gods still dunk on these heroes, I am just looking for some 300-400 point bad asses that can handle their own. Hercules and Gilgamesh certainly still had a place in mythic fantasy with the gods.
Would be cool if when Teclis and Nagash were in the final duel..... Gotrek throws an axe outta nowhere into gashes shoulder "That's for Felix" haha.
We would all be better off. ;)
What if you could give people an amount of points to attribute to armies with how NPE they are. People might really hate LRL but their second most hated might only he half as much
I don't think the survey tool can do that, but it's a great idea, it's very behavioral econ.
@@VinceVenturella I thought of this after the fact, but it would also limit the effect any one person has on the results. They would be automatically adjusted based on the amount of armies or mechanics that person dislikes because they would have to spread points thinner. Might be a bad thing?