Army Tiers in Psychographic Profiles - Warhammer Weekly 08182021
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week we are breaking down the armies into tiers according to Psychographic Profiles - Timmy, Johnny and Spike. This should be a spicy one.
0:00 News
34:40 Pick of the Week
38:45 Hobby Time
1:05:45 Psychographic Profiles
1:34:00 Army Tiers
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Hey, I'm the slaanesh player that you spoke about going 4-1 lol. I'd be happy to explain how I won if you want! I'm going to be on AOS Coach later next week.
Thanks for the shoutout!
Awesome! I saw the show was coming up, I didn't know it was you Evan. Heroic effort good sir, can't wait to watch the episode! You make us all proud.
You are my hero! You're using all the models I love.
what an amazing story of Vince painting an army for Tyler. What a hobby hero, what a legend, what a decent human being. Tyler deserves it so much, he is such a treat for the show and I hope he will stay on. Nothing but respect and support from me!!
I'm glad he has an army now, it was well deserved. :)
Thanks for the kind words! Yeah it was hard to talk about what Anthony and Vince did...just deeply grateful.
Wonderful people.
It seems to me that there is another distinction between the three profiles: Timmy plays the unit, Johnny plays the army, and Spike plays the game.
I like that distinction.
Except that by that definition, two of the three types aren't playing the game. Much of the point of these profiles is to show that different people play the game for different reasons, not to validate one playstyle as "correct."
@@weyen1602 You're right OP's take is a bit reductive as a take. Still it could be useful once you've considered the other stuff to add as an additional criteria. Trying to help people grasp this stuff can be difficult if you don't already know it so building a bridge between their understanding to help them digest this conceptual stuff is worthy.
Like I said it can feel a bit reductive though. Timmy for instance is the easiest to stereotype and this sort of thinking could really belie the depth of their enjoyment of the game. Screaming Waaagh before you try to make 4, 9" charges is a very Timmy situation. They don't care about any individual model in particular right then. They just want the sweet experience.
@@weyen1602 by playing the game I think he means that spikes think about the scenarios and build their lists to be able to score objectives in multiple scenarios and maximize vp. I don't think his distinction is saying Johnny's and Timmy's cant or don't play the game.
@@Silentwolf4321 That's exactly it. It's about where each of the profiles finds its best moment. Psychographic profiles as a concept are reductive; nobody is all one or the other.
This might be the most important episode so far. I learned a lot about myself here. I'm a very Johnny list builder who plays like a Timmy. Or as I will call it from now on, a Timmy in the streets, Johnny in the sheets.
The worst game I can imagine is one where I win, but a week later I don't remember anything that happened.
Jimmy
Love it!
For people who want an AOS shorthand:
Timmy=Shoe
Johnny=Brent
Spike=Jack
Perfection.
Absolutely perfect
I mean, you nailed it.
Im totally a Johnny who wants to be a Timmy, I always gravitate to random explody fun then get angry that my plan doesnt work because everything blows up in my face.
Truly hilarious. :)
This episode literally changed how I look at Warhammer. This weekend I tried out one of the armies that was suggested for what what I considered my profile. And as a result I had one of the most fun Warhammer games I've had in years. Looking at the game with a pseudo-scholarship lens was very rewarding for me and now I'm searching for more.
That's wonderful and truly awesome. :)
This was the most overall fun episode and the most useful tier list method I've ever seen. As a solid Timmy with some Johnny leanings I better understand why I eventually stopped playing 40k with it's Johnny/Spike saturation and equipped everything with plasma guns because something is guaranteed to go boom. Great episode.
Makes sense to me. This was a fun one for sure. :)
I feel the same way daemons used to be so yummy and I love rolling on all my tables every turn and 8 before the game and now I put a greater daemon on the table trying to smash with khorne or survive with nurgle and it doesn’t really happen it’s now very finesse and I struggle with it
Omg I love how much you all support each other in this community! The gifting of the army to Tyler got me all teary eyed!
He certainly more than deserves it. :)
I am a Beast of Chaos player and I totally agree with what you all said. Besides being a glutton for punishment I find myself of the mentality that I want to prove myself as a good player, the whole “I WILL make this army work” repeats through my mind.
There you go. :)
I really like this show guys I'm not even playing AoS until I finish my 40k army but I still lurk on this RUclips channel to keep up. You guys are really the best
This is actually super valuable information to me as a person playing 40k right now with an absolute path towards AoS (or old world) but I haven't decided which army to pick up yet. I'm a bit anxious because I love tzeentch (I play thousand sons in 40k) and I stay away from spike gaming on principle. Maybe that's silly but I won't run archaon based solely on what I've heard in other episodes on this podcast.
Awesome, and I get it on Archaon, here's hoping for a points adjustment.
Vince, the gift for Tyler is why i love this hobby and community so much....looking forward to the painting vid
It's going to be a fun video for sure. :)
Also congrats Tyler you are a legend. What a amazing gift a painted army man you deserve it .
It was well earned for sure.
The three-hour payoff for the six Stormfriends joke was worth every single minute.
It was incredible. :)
Loved this show - made me really reflect and understand myself better.
Would be a complex chart but would love to see this combined with the power/well designed chart that you did a few months back. Suspect with that combination you would have a really powerful suggestion of which army to pick/try if you are x type of player.
Thanks again for the great content.
Yeah, it would be interesting to put this information together with that, good call.
Since it was brought up, I'd love to see a color pie breakdown too. The fact that a few of my Stormcast are painted and lightly converted to be Planeswalkers has no bearing on the desire to see more AoS/MtG overlap
I actually did a video a long time ago on the color wheel applied to warhammer, it would be a good topic.
"You're a hammer and every problem looks like a nail."
I need that in Latin across my shoulders. I love it.
Vos es forsit a malleo similis omnibus, et clavus.
Absolutely fantastic chat on this topic and having Meph and Tyler really coming at it from opposite directions really boosted the conversation into the stratosphere - great dynamics!!!
Thanks, this one was really fun. :)
Fantastic Show. Really fun to learn and have a good think about all of this.
Awesome, glad you enjoyed. :)
This was one of your best shows and now one of my personal favourites. Great topic. I think we are a mix of all 3, and the mix can change. It was nice to see the armies I have fall with in what I consider myself to be. Also helped pick what future Factions I may get into.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow, I never really thought about my weird twisted spike personality aspects. My aim is always to do the best I can with the least popular thing in the meta.
That's a hard spike move for sure, out to prove something, it could also be a little johnny here and there if you are really into the list tech. ;)
Thursdays are always my best work commutes because I have a fresh helping of your goodness waiting to be enjoyed. Also, I was surprised initially by the length of it. But, then I saw your guest host was Mr. Mephisto and I understood. 😄
Yeah, it was inevitable. ;)
Great video! Really enjoyed the discussion, and interesting to see where my own favorite armies ended up. Food for thought when choosing a new one to collect at some point.
Awesome. :)
43:28 I am just a stranger on the interwebs, and have not nor will ever meet/know Tyler. I know one thing for certain about him though. Tyler, you absolutely deserve the army.
Also, vince was painting this during rantaton. If you watch carefully during his block, you can see the distinct look of a brute choppa appear on camera a few times
I completely agree about Tyler and that is so funny on the Brute. :)
Thanks, that's incredibly nice of you to say, and I hope we do meet one day. :)
Great show. Vince, you're the man. Amazing gesture from you guys and well deserved for Tyler. He's been a great addition to the show. Awesome stuff everyone!
Thanks, this was a really fun one.
Thanks, appreciate it! Tom is irreplaceable, but it's been an honor subbing in for a little while.
Johnny here.
When playing Pathfinder, I am the wizard that combos utility spells into deadly traps and effects.
I see we are one in the same. ;)
Johnny feeling very seen right here 😆 👀
Great show!
You are one of the true blue Johnnies my friend. :)
What an amazing gift for Tyler! Well deserved!
I agree, it was very much deserved.
I got Anthony and Vince on the phone immediately and must've sounded absolutely deranged for the first few minutes.
This was actually super helpful in letting me work out what armies I should check out as a Timmy Johnny. Soulblight, Nurgle, or Skaven here we come.
There you go, that was the goal! :)
I'm a 100% Johnny. I own all the versions of Khorne Bloodbound heroes.
Awesome.
Great video. Thanks for the link! It all makes more sense now, and is a really interesting way of looking at things.
Glad it was helpful!
I always love the power point presentation and this was a really interesting episode. cheers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This show taught me that I was a Johnny, even though I want to be a Timmy. Meanwhile opponents in the know keep asking why I'm not playing a Spike list.
...Slaves to Darkness problems.
I see only solutions if you're playing the established as factually perfect army, Slaves to Darkness. ;)
S2D, just playing all the ways. :)
Fascinating show, I had an epiphany, like Tyler that I'm a spike. I've not played a lot of Warhammer but in games like magic I prefer efficient strategies simple strategies over flashy combos. Also it really appeals to me to take a faction that's underpowered and pilot it to some unexpected wins.
There you go!
Glad to hear I wasn't the only one! :) Definitely resonate with that re: trying to get the most out of an underpowered list.
I feel like it depends a lot on how experienced you are with the game. The game itself from the outside appeals to your inner Timmy at first, then your inner Johnny discovers the complexity and finally your inner Spike takes control so that you don't just lose every time because you don't really know what you're doing. It takes a really special person to keep having Timmy inform their choices in the face of constant defeat.
That feel when I'm a Timmy player who also loves T'au models and lore. It sucks because everyone hates playing against the T'au, but I just want to deploy cool giant mecha robots and shoot a bunch of laser guns.
I get that, they are the coolest thing in 40k
Having heard the terms before, I'm glad it was broken down and now I have a firm grasp of the concept. Gamer psychology and playing the player is probably not spoken of enough in table tops, full stop. Just another tool in the box to help read game state
Awesome, always happy to help. :)
What a great episode. This stuff was fascinating, as I play lots of games, and it really made sense for me and friends.
Glad it was helpful!
3:15:40 for Cities of Sigmar. Great show gentlemen.
Always happy to help. :)
I always thought of myself as a Spike but I guess I'm more of a Johnny than I would have previously admitted. Regarding the Giant's extra battle tactics I'd say those battle tactics will DEFINITELY be used and probably a lot more than you might think. In fact in a non-zero (probably a reasonable number actually) the Giants player will elect to use one of these coinflip/dice roll mechanics when they run out of other viable options. Great show, learned a bit about myself and it was great seeing Meph!
Great seeing you too! This was my favorite show to be a part of so far. Just an absolute blast with the hosts and concepts we were discussing.
They have such strong play in the battle tactics where you can often guarantee so many (I often have them guaranteed into round 4 in my games), but sure, if they are desperate enough. :)
@@VinceVenturella well now you have more options for round 5, sir.
I can already tell from the title, this is going to be a great show
This was a really fun one. :)
Our need as a species to obsessively categorise everything is truly fascinating XD
It's a post enlightenment addiction I would say. :)
Fingers crossed for Kruleboyz being Timmy with a Johnny edge.
I guess we will see.
Food for thought from this show, as usual!
Experience, Express, Evince seems more fitting to me to summarise the three types though.
I like the alliteration.
This is one of the shows where you learn a lot about yourself. Before starting to actually think about it, I thought I was there for the ride. Turns out (and my armies reflect it) I am a Johnny with a healthy dash of Spike. Lumineth-Sylvaneth-Idoneth. Also Army themes (Lumineth reclaiming their arctic palace on handmade ruin bases, snow and little reddened noses)
That's awesome, I really loved doing this show. :)
I never really thought of current Ossiarchs being in the Spike realm but that's probably because I play them very much as a Timmy. I love my 20 man blobs of Mortek Guard with spears throwing out 20+ attacks with exploding 5/6's being backed up by Gothizzar Harvesters who can also happily trundle off on their own to hit things with their maces.
The most Spike part of my army, I feel, is the terrain piece and even then I super dislike how big and annoying it can be as a thing but it's free so why wouldn't I take it?
I maintain that OBR, despite its previous reputation has a VERY SATISFYING Timmy aspect to it. Might've been more charitable to call it Spike/Timmy because you are definitely doing the Timmy thing and laughing at how invincible you are lol. 😂
I think Meph is dead on.
Great getting to hear this breakdown of the styles. Amongst other things certainly brought to light things about Spike that had never heard of before.
For the longest time had though that "enjoying the suffering of others" WAS a Spike trait based on people had run across; a few even having made the claim that it was a "personality" thing.
This explains so much things like how HeyWoah and Tyler seem like a great guys while still being considered a Spike.
Pretty cool with Tyler finding out himself to be a closet Spike.
Sounds like a lot of Min-Maxers would probably end up somewhere in the Johnny-Spike range. Whatever it may be that they are Min-Maxing.
Started slowly painting together an Ossiarchs army a bit ago; so far only 20x Mortek Guard in.
Don't fully know my mix but being part Johnny, but not to the max, does seem to fit.
Hearing how it has most entirely landed in Spike land now; any guesses if something 'll be done to potentially pull them back towards Johnny land a bit?
Sounds like a bunch of Johnnys were originally attracted to them based on the forums and having their whole RDP set of abilities.
Any plans to have a follow-up show to this?
Maybe focused on how the army concepts & narratives align with the Psychographic Profiles; as a side-by-side display of cognitive dissonances.
Which could easily break into spitballing some ideas on how those breaks might get bridged; and if that then would leave a hole behind in the gameplay.
I can't speak for Vince's intent on future shows but I thoroughly enjoyed being on this one and think Vince was in peak host mode, really guiding the conversation proactively and really putting forth these concepts that may be more esoteric or difficult to grasp in a way that really seemed to resonate. Huge shout outs to Vince. He really brought it and proved why he's the best there is at what he does.
Watching Tyler as the audience surrogate who had less of an understanding come to understand more about the concepts himself was quite frankly magical. Tyler is one of the smartest people in Age of Sigmar and seeing him in real time learning and then articulating the concepts in my mind made the show. That throughline from concept to practice he showed was the beating heart here.
Onto the OBR thing - I'm a huge Johnny who loves a Timmy Flair or Finish. I also LOVE OBR. It is what I call my forever home as an army - I just, ya know, built a nice little SBG expansion on my forever home is all. I've always love undead and started in WHFB 4th Ed with Undead before jumping on Vampire Counts when they split my army up. When I came back I messed around on Grand Alliance Death before the LON Battletome came out and had a lot of fun and fell in love with AOS and rediscovered my love of all things ghoulish and macabre through the lens of AOS. But when OBR came out... oh, baby, I can't even describe the heaven I was in. I've not come down from that high since.
But enough about me just wanted to hammer home how deeply personally I relate to all my armies with OBR in particular being my favorite. I pointed out on this show that OBR is deceptive to some. That OBR has some SERIOUS Timmy vibes and pieces - Stalkers, Mortek Crawlers (because mortek crawlers go brrrrr then BOOOOOM with the splodey funeral pires they're launching), Gothizzar Harvesters, even Mortek Guard have a Timmy quality to them, like how we described the Timmy joy of being unkillable in Nurgle, you can experience a certain Timmy glee with Mortek Guard. The Johnny of OBR is still there in ways. List building for instance is STILL a Rubik's Cube of finding the perfect 200 points but the reality of the army is we have one allegiance ability - Ranks Unbroken By Dissent (well two because we have a Death Save too but that's ALL DEATH not Uniquely OBR) and that is where the Johnny play itself comes from. Running this unit the extra 3, setting that one shield tilt, that one to get some bonus rend, maybe you're bringing Arkhan to chain gun some Mystic Shields etc but Relentless Discipline as it exists in the game, hampered by the General Rules that stop us from double or triple tapping our Command Abilities with our abundance of RDP while also prohibiting us from using Generic Command Abilities that all other armies have, the Johnny is just a shadow of itself and you're making fewer decisions (which johnny really likes to do) than just a normal ass army spending its normal ass Command Points. For me this is a big feels bad and I want nothing more than for GW to address it; give us that Wave 2 OBR release (akin to LRL's 2nd Wave) or a core battalion that lets us do something with our left over RDP each turn, I dunno anything really. I DIDN'T want people to take away from the show that OBR are in a Bad Place with capital letters. There's just not in their, for me, ideal place. They still slap stuff around on the table but they're doing so by just being darn good units played within the normal confines of the fundamentals of AOS (with some stuff even cut off to them to make their game even more straight forward).
I could've probably made a strong case for it being a Spike-Timmy army at the end of the day to be quite honest and maybe should've but to get my point across from them being a Johnny (Anything) and into them being Spike was already drifting them one or two notches from their perceived position, I didn't want to stretch it too much, ya know?
Which brings me to my final thought and I hope you read this with some self-affirming positivity. What an army is, is far less worthy than what you are as a player and how you choose to experience, express, or prove something. Knowing what you like to do and why you like to do it is just useful information to have but in the end It's YOUR. ARMY. and YOUR. GAME. Johnny above all others feels games are extensions of their self expression and if the way you express yourself comes out in OBR despite some disharmony with RDP or List Building or whatever I might cite, then that's all that matters. Express yourself, my friend. OBR are a great army with a lot to give and no talking head on the internet, myself included, can really boil down or simplify your journey to a couple charts on the internet.
@@MrMephistoMori thanks for all the great inside insights to someone who's on the fringe finding their way in!
It is great to get to hear some of where you're coming from mixed in with your perspective on all these points.
Sounds like any which way OBR is probably going to be a great starter army in many ways because of the solid fundamentals.
Using a bit of RDP to get a whole force painted and together under a single theme will still be nice to have.
Here's to hoping that they'll be adding back in some nice tool-kitting options and how far to push "down the peddle" choices during play in what comes next for both of us.
I think you did a pretty good job bringing up how the army can land in Timmy-Spike during the show without over pressing the point.
Seems like all of you were in the groove almost like a jazz band adding in good things while keeping things moving at the same time. With those little slow downs to cover great points and balancing it out with some brevity in other areas.
@@Fadeing Appreciate your feedback and I really do wish you luck on your AOS journey. I've played a few games of AOS 3.0 with my OBR and still love my army. I'm not going to let worries about 'what could or might be' stop me from enjoying what I have. See you around, internet stranger!
I think there is so much more ground to cover here, this was really fun and I look forward to more shows like this. :)
It was so cute watching AoS players get all excited about how 3 wasn't gonna have army specific strategies and battalions.
Oh how Naive we were.
@@VinceVenturella Gotta sell those army books somehow.
Wish they would just put points and rules online and let the army books be Art/Lore and a basic ruleset for beginners.
This video is nice to watch in late 2022 haha
great episode! learned a lot and enjoyed thinking about armies from a different perspective.
Glad to hear it!
Loved tonight's show. Totally interesting to watch.
Glad you enjoyed it
I prefer to play Armies that are slightly underdogs, where I dont feel bad playing it really well, and a bit proud when I mannage to win.
And prefer games where both parties have a sporting chance and have FUN, worst games for me is when either me or opponent is dominated, I'm fairly successfull and like to do complex tricks / armies, but to keep beeing able to do such things without making games completly one sided I tend to try find armies on bottom of A or B tier at best (in a S-E tier list), it helps I own 7 armies for AoS, and tend to pick armies I'd rank below the oppoent I face if it's not a tournament, allowing me to play my best while still feeling like it's a cool friendly game not too unbalanced, as army balance goes up and down it helps with multiple choices!
Totally agree, much the same for me.
Pretty sure after this discussion, I’d describe myself as a Johnny/Spike who wants to be a Timmy sometimes
Makes sense.
Gitz has gotten to a point where those of us that love the faction want to prove that it’s good in a very similar way to BoC players. “If I juice my boingrots with snufflers and get the charge off… I can kill Archaon” is a real thought I’ve had.
Checks out.
I just discovered I’m a Jonny Timmy type of player! Good to know :) great show as always!
Rock on!
I would have loved to have a sphere graph to have armies leaning towards the middle (all 3 profiles) and some armies being on the sides ( typical x or y). But this confirms my Johnny-Timmy mix 😉 I'm right there with skavens and gloomspite and my willingness to start nurgle or SG
Yeah, this should have been a triangle, that was silly of me.
Very interesting discussion ! My son plays ironjaws for the timmy part of it. We are figuring out wheter the inclusion of kragnos will jump it more over the Timmy part and wheter it is worth it!
Exzcellent, he is certainly super Timmy!
Tremendous guys, this was super interesting!
Awesome, glad you enjoyed. :)
Tzeentch has way too many mechanics to be pure Spike. However, it’s attracting a lot of players that just “want to win.” Hence, the impulse to label it pure Spike.
Yep, seems fair.
Imo, Khorne (strongly Johnny) leans Timmy because Blood Tithe. What's more Timmy than dropping a meteor on the field because half your army is dead? Khorne is still pretty Timmy for a beer & pretzels game.
Sure, I thought about Johnny Timmy, but I think they minimized too much of the Timmy in it's current book, though they could bring it back. :)
I hope they do.
Don't know how much you are into MtG, but if Dredge and Storm are the decks I find the most fun, which 2-3 factions would you recommend that I started looking at?
Those are some very classic johnny enabler super-combos. So you should look at the techiest factions. Tzeentch, Khorne even the new Kruleboyz. Those are some very techy factions right now.
@@VinceVenturella Thanks, I'll look at those factions first.
How about the Realmlords, they seem like a combo engine army when spoken about, or am I misunderstanding something?
Are we able to do an updated version of this? I'm interested to hear what everyone's thoughts on how the new books are classified:)
Also, could we have a Venn Diagram of Timmy-Johnny-Spike instead?
I will do an update for this, I will definitely use a venn diagram next time.
Great episode! Do you think that GW could/should make more armies like Fyreslayers appeal to “Johnys” by expanding their rosters by adding more units/heroes?
I think FS is a lost cause if you want my personal opinion, but they could always suprirse us.
Great show!! Thank you!
Our pleasure! :)
Great episode. quick question
With the new core battalions of Son of Behemat. Can you take 4 megangargants?! No man crushers need it?!
Correct, you don't need the core batalions though, everything in the army is battleline.
Finally got to see this after through and I find it funny while I believe my FEC and SCE are correctly explained and placed I feel my 40K tendencies are different and don't know how to balance the game system with the profile ... if there is really a balance that needs to be found, or at the end of the day just have fun with your models (or MTG cards). 😉
Oh, I'm a different beast in MTG and I suspect its similar with 40k. Different games bring out different aspects of people I'd bet. For instance Monopoly or Mario Kart, the only profile is Spike as far as the eye can see. :P
Yeah, as Meph said, different games can often provike different responses, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. :)
It is so funny to listen to this after my 40k game this weekend where I was super excited for my thousand sons to mortal wound everything and teleport around the board which feels very Timmy/Johnny vs a Dark Angel’s player who’s win condition was stand still and do nothing which felt very spike.
Yep, sounds about right.
I know I'm late to the game, but I think I might have this in DnD terms. Timmy is the Wild Magic Sorceror, Johnny is the toolbox Wizard that has a spell for every situation, and Spike is a Sorcadin that can smite all day every day. Sound about right?
I think you're exactly right, but I might swap Johnny for the Bard (I mean, why use a spell when you can use a skill? - I have played so many Johnny Bards, I can't help myself, it's the best class), But yes, you have exactly the idea.
As my current armies are Doomwheel heavy Skaven, and Barak Thryng from Kharadron; I guess I’m really Johnny and Timmy!! 😅
Man I laughed when you said the quote “I think people are sleeping on this”; that is Exactly what was going through my head as I started to build a whole scheme of moves and counter moves for my armies 😁
but in the end I just want to see them go off in spectacular destruction, like Timmy, and really don’t care if I win or not!
Classic Johnny Timmy right there. :)
Any chance to get a 2023 update using the newest books and rules for armies
Absolutely
Hey Vince, this was an awesome show and I used some of the slides to have a discussion with my AoS friends on our discord server about where we line up! ^.^
I have a question though. Been in the hobby since 2020 with just a Nighthaunt army and I'm not sure where I line up between Johnny, Timmy, and Spike, I just know I don't like spending all my time list building. Do you have any recommendations for how to discover what sort of psychographic profiles a player leans toward? I read the game designer article in the description and while I know more about the archetypes, I still don't know where I land!
Well, Johnny loves list building and tech. The best questions to ask yourself are why are you playing the game? What sort of moments are the most memorable to you looking back on your game? A big monster wiping a unit? A cool combo? Just a great win? These kind of things can help you find the right place.
@@VinceVenturella Thanks for the response!!!
Great video! Love the categorization.
A bit surprised how few Timmy and how many Johnny armies there are. And agreed that the flagship intro faction shouldn't lean too hard into Johnny and should lean more into Timmy. Fingers crossed that the new battletome moves Stormcast Eternals right into Timmy-Johnny territory.
Wish I had done more research before getting my first army, Sylvaneth. Love the models, but I am not a huge fan of the playstyle.
Yeah, I really hope they take SCE in the right direction (at least with this newest generation of models)
By the way Vince, I accidentally got a a huge frosting from some gorilla super glue on my painted loon shrine when I was putting together painted sub assemblies. I accidentally discovered that glossy varnish made the frosting effect from the glue disappear. Have you ever tried this?
Yep, additional layers of varnish can rmove frosting, as can olive oil if that doesn't work. :)
It would be fun to see an updated version of the "tier list" for the new Battletomes of the V3 (and maybe a distinction between the different Warclans)
Absolutely, this is something I want to return to, especially as we get more 3.0 battletomes.
It's interesting that for a "Timmy Game" you guys found very few pure Timmy Army's but lots of pure Johnny ones. And I think there is a reason for that, game designers are most often Johnny's. Making a game is a very "look at how creative and clever I am'' exercise. Game designers are often not spikes and they are too in their own head to be Timmy's. It takes a lot of empathy for someone to really understand another mindset but it's much easier to just make something that speaks to you personally. I would also bet that Timmy's are the hardest to get feedback from as they would use terms like "it doesn't feel right" where as Spikes would say this is too powerful by 20 percent, which is much more actionable even if the Timmy comment about "feel'' is just as valid.
Basically you have mostly Johnny's creating rules with feedback from mostly spikes.
Fun show!
THis is a great insight, I love this.
Excellent, excellent read. Great take and I agree 100% no 1000%!
Super fun discussion! Definitely learned something about myself (and my friends).
I'm very curious to see how Kill Team '21 maps to Timmy-Johnny-Spike. I feel that the game as a whole has gotten more Spike/Timmy as opposed to KT'18, which was much more listbuilding-Johnny. KT'21 moves the game towards proving yourself on the board (spike) and the much more deadly combat (timmy).
Some keywords used in the current KT'21 discussions are Elites-vs-Hordes, Glass cannon, Shooty-vs-melee, playing-the-objectives, board control. And a lot of discussion on whether 4 custodes are overpowered / 'can you beat them?'
Interesting, I don't know enough about the game, but I bet there is a lot to dissect there. :)
I feel the in more casual space Khorne is Timmy-Johnny. List building is for sure Johnny, but it's just so fun to get into during gameplay. Blood Tithe is always happy lol
Blood Tithe is one of their better mechanics they have ever created for sure. :)
@@VinceVenturella I still get annoyed that my summoning points are competing with one of my other key allegiance abilities, on top of the wasted points if going for a lower value choice than how many I have. Both of which are factors the other 3 gods summoning points dont have to deal with. Would love to see that fixed in the next book.
That being said, the fight in the hero phase ability has allowed me to kill both Allarielle and the Shadow Queen with my Lord on Manticore in 3rd edition, on their turns if I remember correctly!
Oh wow. I thought I was Timmy Johnny, but I guess I have some Spike too. I'm the seraphon player that doesn't take multiple big blocks of skinks. I'm actually taking kroxigors to a tournament this weekend.
Awesome. :)
Great discussion. Not sure why Tyler is down on Be’lakor when you have Morathi in the game.
He is the perfect counter to a lot of these problems. :)
One answer to bad rules/mechanics is good TOs. See Rob’s terrain pack. If army specific battalions create a new Changehost, TO’s need to strike them from their events. Keep it to the true Core Battalions that all factions have access to.
agreed
Would you say it’s reasonable to think of these categories as like before, during and after? Like Johnny is before, the planning and contemplation, Timmy is during, the thrill of the moment, and Spike is after, the satisfaction of victory? Is this a sensible way to interpret these profiles?
There are elements of that, but that's a little too narrow. For example, Johnny can also love the moment to moment, the responses (like LRL, or using Redeploy in the perfect moment). Spike might be all about the grind of finding the exact most efficient unit and thinking it through over and over again. If we're talking the defaults (kind of what these tend to be about as they manifest, yeah that's probably pretty close).
32:00 wait, is objective "wholly within" your territory meant to mean the 6" radius? Because the obective is supposed to be just a spot like 1 pixel. I understood it as it just has to be at least a fraction of an inch outside of your territory to be kicked into the territory so it's wholly within.
That whole concept also made me question whether obectives that are on the edge of a territory count as *inside* the territory or not for some battleplans...
They are inside but not wholly inside. So the battleplan that requires you to hold 2 objectives not wholly within your territory works.
No, it's just the 1mm area, the trick is, you are betting you will kick the thing from wholly outside to wholly inside, and most objectives (as per their set-up on the map) just aren't in a place where you could do that with any confidence.
Do you guys have / know of any discord to discuss Warhammer/ Rules ?
I know AoS Coach has a discord, as does RR1/2+ Tough.
@@VinceVenturella Thank you very much, I will check it out :)!
The most Melvin thing for me are the Vanari weapon profiles. Everything hits on 3s cause they’re good but not crazy good, except the heroes who hit on 2s cause they’re heroes.
All the units wound on 4s with no rend, yet are modified the same way if you do what you’re supposed to with them. Wardens get +1 to wound and +1 rend if they’re charged, Dawnriders get it if they charge, and Sentinels if they’re close enough. Just so beautiful.
Yeah, cavalry often does the Melvin thing pretty well, with Dawnriders being one of the best.
You need to rename the categories Vince, Meph and Tyler lol
It would have been accurate. :)
What happened to the Celestant's Tempestos Hammer?
Did they squat it?
He still has the hammer profile on there 3/3/-2/2.
Hey Vince really loved your guest. Is he a content creator? He's awesome ! Also hey can you guys still get Kon round for a khorne faction focus he's a genius loved his direct matter of fact way of speaking think it would be a great show with you guys.
Mr. Mephisto, he has a youtube channel under that name. Meph is wonderful. :)
@@VinceVenturella thanks man great guests as always
Johny (Vorthos) lookin at you with a Skaven army, Skrib Nibblers ;)
Not enough use of Skrib Nibblers.
Hmmm, I've been building an IJ army (yet to play my first game) and got the Dominion box, was thinking to also build up the SC from that box. But I strongly feel I'm a big Timmy player, with a bit of Spike. I'd rather have fun with a list I found online than having to go through all the different rules and think of combinations.
SC are probably not the army for me then - unless the meta changes when their tome drops.
I am hoping for much more Timmy out of SCE in the new book.
Blade of Khorne is hardcore Timmy because 3 Bloodthirster builds are still a thing. Everyone I’ve played that runs Khorne is a Timny. It’s probably why the army doesn’t rate well right now is because so many people bought into Khorne running it like a Timmy when they shouldn’t be.
Yeah, it thinks its a Timmy army, but actually, to play it, you have to be a johnny and that's how it actually wants you to play, hence the placement. :)
Thought I was a Timmy then every army I play landed on the Johnny/Spike border...
You might still be a Timmy. Mapping the armies to some aggregate of factors broadly doesn't mean you personally don't play them for the experience - the Timmy way.
I begrudgingly mapped my favorite army to Spike (OBR). It's true I've felt disharmony playing it since 3.0 since the Johnny aspect is utterly lacking but I love the army in totality from aesthetics to backstory, both things that weren't mapped.
Keep your head up. You're more than the army you play.
It was an epiphany for many I am sure. :)
I can guarantee that when new tzeentch book drops, it will have op battalions and easy to score battle tactics like cast 3 spells. Kill 10 models with mortal wounds
Yep, it just feels like a foregone conclusion.
My major Warhammer issue at the moment and for a while is: I never get to play the finished game. We won't ever have a significant window of time to play AoS 3.0 in a form where all armies have all thier rules, models, and points at a level field.
I'd rather they do as you've said where we all play with the same core battalion's, battle tactics and such. Where rules changes don't invalidate whole books.
Editions should be what seasons are supposed to be. Over all rules that change the missions, maybe all the core battalion's, and stuff like that for everyone equally.
Rather than killing everyone's battalion's and giving them back piece meal over the next 3 years.
Yeah, honestly, it's been amazing the last few months, because it felt very complete.
Can you be a Timmy for play style and a Johnny/Spike for painting and converting do you think?
I love this and absolutely.
I'm probably Timmy/Melvin but the opposite way to Vince. In Magic a 1/5 is way cooler than a 5/1. Play white with healing and creatures that just don't die.
In AoS things like Phoenecium, Fyreslayers and so on are my jam. If I can end the game stuck in fighting without losing a model then *that's* a perfect game.
You are definitely the opposite Timmy of me. :)
1:25:12 Meph just confirmed he’s a Bond villain
checks out.
Did I ever try to hide it? ;)
I play Beasts of Chaos nearly all Ungor, gor, bestigors and Bullgors so I think that makes me Timmy Spike?
If you're playing the army and start every game saying "gentlemen, start you engines!" Then screaming across the table, you may be playing it VERY Timmy lol.
And as established, all of us active BoC players got something to prove. ;)
Sounds about right to me.
I have given this some thought and I am not sure you are getting your Timmy picks quite right (I don't know the armies well enough). For Timmy players I think the big flashy effects is a bit of red herring, to be a good Timmy army I think the army just has to match the fiction. So an army that's supposed to be subtle and tricky can be a good Timmy army if the game rules bring out the flavor of that fiction. This makes me think that some armies that you have squarely put into Johny are also great for some Timmy players if that's the fiction that they are looking for.
This makes me also think that we are asking three different questions rather than trying categorise.
for Timmy we ask does the play style match the fiction?
for Johny we ask is there depth of strategic options?
and for Spike we ask how good is this army in the meta at the moment?
Well, Timmy wants to experience something, usually something extraordinary. What you're describing of the lore alignment is more of an appreciation profile, namely Vorthos, but you are right that these are a spectrum.
@@VinceVenturella My understanding is that Vorthos wasn't to inhabit the world and live the lore. That's not what I am saying at all. For Timmy I think the lore has to promise an experience that the Timmy wants (and this can be a pretty wide range of experiences) and the game-play has to deliver the advertised experience. I think there is a danger of reading too much into how Timmies tend to manifest in magic the gathering when comparing that to a game like AoS where there are a lot more factions but less parts (does that make sense).
Take Tzeentch as an example, A Timmy playing this faction is looking for the experience of playing the avatar of the god of treachery, deceipt and magic the rules work well for the Timmy as long as they deliver on that promise (not having the experience with the game yet I can tell you whether it lives up to that promise, but I would expect to have access to powerful magics, lots of underhanded tricks and I would expect to lose if I wasn't being underhanded and tricky enough). Now I would expect Johny players to also love this army but for very different reasons.
Lets face it, If an AoS faction isn't using it's lore to advertise some sort of exiting experience that you could be having what is it even doing there.
coming back to this I shouldn't have said lore. Lore is part of it but it's also but it's also the visual and tactile elements of the army, how large are the models, what do the sculpts look like, what are they influenced by? With a good Timmy army I think you need Prosody between all these elements and the mechanics, first and foremost.
I guess I'm a Timmy? Idk. I play armies that I think look cool and I love in the lore. I love pain bringers and use them. I love vampire heros and try to just use a lot of them. I'm not really looking for a experience just a story that I can tell in my head. Some times I do well and that's great other times I do horrible and I'm good with that (as long as I made their general almost dead at the least other wise I completely failed).
Totally makes sense. :)
Hi, I'm sure it's going to be another fantastic show, but before I continue watching I want to give a small criticism only 1 minute in.
Can you please make sure the audio level is a little higher? I have to crank my audio up for warhammer weekly, so the next time some other sound plays, I fall from my chair.
Love you guys ^^
Yeah, I didn't realize my levels were still down from last week, I fix it at one point.
@@VinceVenturella It's great to read these comments and see that it's only you with the audio issues, for once. :)