The turn-based strategy video game "Battle for Wesnoth" has a simple way of including magic: it's a quality that some attacks of some units have, that means the attack will always have at least a 70% chance to hit its target, whereas normally the odds depend on the target's affinity with the terrain it's standing on. Magic basically turns any attack into a homing missile. Magic units thus become experts at taking enemy fortifications. I find this simple and elegant.
I’m not sure it is “cool” but The Battle of Dumai's Wells in the Wheel of Time series is realistic. When conducting a rescue mission against a vastly larger force, 200 mages first arrive by teleporting into the middle of the enemy’s ranks. They then erect a magical dome to stop the enemy coming closer and proceed to slaughter them by the thousand using magic. That’s far more realistic than most fiction where mages are often more for show than substance.
The section on troop types gave me an idea: can you do a video on the Ranger archetype? My fantasy world takes place in a vast and elaborate cave system. The Wild Caverns, deep below the city-state civilization, are dark and unforgiving and full of terrible creatures. I want to create a guild of rangers that take risky tours into the wild for the valuables and power they can find there. Your videos are awesome for world building idea generation!
In my setting, magic is pretty rare but not unheard of. To throw an even bigger spanner in the works, most magic users have seemingly random abilities. Planning for any given opponent is next to impossible. But then, most forces don't have any real focus on using magic because finding enough people who use any one ability is nearly impossible. But then this also makes it nearly impossible for *me* to work with too because I have so many potential variables. The biggest use of magic in my armies that I make use of is my villain's forces. You brought up necromancy but she can go a step further and flat out resurrect anyone she wants, and she doesn't even have to be present on the battlefield for it. So her forces have a reputation for being utterly unstoppable. It's fun to write, especially when it can also delve into how that can impact someone psychologically to die repeatedly.
I think the psychological aspect of being the subject of magic is often underrated. Combine that with normal battlefield ptsd and you’ve got a great recipe for a set of really disturbed individuals! I like it 👏😁
@@JustInTimeWorlds Especially when, as is often the case in fantasy stories, the cast is on the young side. So much complex psychology even in the best of circumstances.
Spoiler alert for Wheel of Time series below: One of the best series using magic for military applications that I have read is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson. Just as one example, in this world they discover how to make magic "gates" they can walk through to move between far flung locations instantly. In the final series of battles they develop a whole host of novel ways to use these gates. For example, they begin using them for reconnaissance by opening gates above the enemy army so they can look through them. One of the main characters begins to hide his artillery in a cave and just opens gates to various parts of the battlefield, enabling him to keep his artillery hidden and protected, while simultaneously being able to attack anywhere on the battlefield. It's really fantastic.
I think that it is really important to consider how common and how powerful magic is to get a good idea of how it affects a world. Most fantasy settings seem to assume magic is rare and weak so that they can be similar to some real historical setting. However, then magic comes along and it is neither rare nor weak. This leads to an inconsistent setting. If magic is sufficiently common or powerful I think modern warfare is a better model rather than historical warfare. A skilled swordsman is about as much use on a magic dominated battlefield as they would be on a modern battlefield, i.e. not very useful. When magic becomes equivalent to technology every soldier would be a mage and/or use arcane devices, otherwise they’d lose a battle against a smaller but more magically capable opponent.
In large numbers that would be devasting though in small numbers it’s “only” like another cannon (if they exist). I suspect the most useful magic would be force multiplier effects such as intelligence gathering and mobility enhancers. Historical armies just didn’t have those capabilities but they are a key part of modern warfare. A mage can scry a target before a few large flying carpets deposit some troops supported by golems… or something like that.
I think the one that stood out to me was Jim Butcher’s Codex Alera. The series is basically an exploration of how elemental magic would affect Roman legions, especially the latter books, and society as a whole. Near every human can use magic, so every soldier is expected to know basic metal, earth, and fire magic (for defense/resistance, drawing out magic properties in roadways, and lighting campfires/lamps, respectively). People who are particularly strong in an element can be given appropriate tasks (like Earthcrafters are often used for construction, Watercrafters as healers, Windcrafters as aerial units and limited transportation, etc.). Innovations for new ways to use these powers also happen in the later books, adding a bit of dynamism to it. Other intelligent species, meanwhile, don’t have that kind of magic, but they do have their own kinds that affect how their armies and societies are structured.
I think you forgot the Medium Infantry and Cavalry, since they're pretty obscure, like the Greeks Thureophoroi who are basically Skirmishers who could fight in a Phalanx, while Medium Cavalry is quite rare as they could be considered Heavy Cavalry, but more nimble.
@@JustInTimeWorlds I expected it continues on in those books, but I've only read the first 2 of the Farseer series. I'm gonna read all of her stuff though, it's the coziest misery!
While there's lots of material about land-based armies, I feel like a lot of people (myself included!) don't know a lot about Navies - let along how magic might be applied to them!
I've got a royal guard one (ruclips.net/video/cbrDqur3seA/видео.html) and an air force one (ruclips.net/video/cs1gvPrDi-c/видео.html) but funny story, I was just today planning an elite forces video :D I'm glad to hear that there's an audience for that!
@JustInTimeWorlds oh yes I'm very interested especially since the first few stories of my world are in various terrains jungle, desert, swamps, mountains
The first example that comes to my mind of healers on the battlefield is bungou stray dogs. In which a girl could heal everyone by a single touch, and nobody dies, but, with that, the war never ended and some soldiers started to kill themselves to escape from the war
It is also important to discuss what siege battles would be like, the formation of armies, the construction of defenses, and the style of combat. I imagine that fireballs would make compact formations of units obsolete, perhaps making the formations of small specialized squads, as in current wars. Walls would also be obsolete, as there are so many ways to break one down using magic. Defenses would perhaps be restricted to underground tunnels, trenches or magical barriers depending on the system used (Especially to deal with air attacks). Magic can also influence the equipment soldiers wear. Depending on how common it is, magical items could be used more. If only gunpowder was capable of completely changing the type of weapons used, magic should have an even greater influence in this regard. There are many other aspects, but I personally think that a spell with so many possibilities would make the battles too chaotic. Just simpler spells, like the style that only does one thing but with several functions (like gunpowder), would be easier to work with. About the video, it's great, I'm glad the algorithm made me find you.
I would very much disagree with the minor impact of mages as artillery pieces. Just as artillery made castles obsolete, the same would apply to sufficiently strong battle mages. Likewise sufficiently strong defensive mages could keep castles in business into the modern era.
5:55 I hear this argument a lot. That a lot of what mages would be doing is counter spelling each other and honestly I think that's rather ignorant. By the same logic we can look to artillery and conclude that since the artillery would largely be counter battering each other, things don't change much. Turns out, this isn't the case. Artillery had a profound game changing effect on the battlefield, but neither did it reduce the usefulness of the infantry. And yes, artillery did revolutionize warfare, far more than just change it, so this idea that direct field attacks aren't a game changer is nonsense. We should also keep in mind that long range magics might not be a thing, and so attacking mages might not be a good parallel to artillery in what their role would be. Which isn't to say they wouldn't change things like artillery did, just that they won't function like artillery necessarily, it depends on the setting. 7:04 On the healing end of things I think this effect can be somewhat overstated. The vast majority of causalities that happened during battles back in the day was not during the battle but at the end during the rout. As in, after logistical support breaks down, thus subverting the usefulness of army wide healing during battle. In these settings, healers probably will be present, but instead of being logistical support from the back line they will travel with the troops into battle. We also have to be careful with necromancy. If necromancers have the ability to raise massive amounts of troops, the nature of armies would fundamentally change to that of undead ones. It also risks subverting any tropes you may be hoping to maintain. In that sense, the scope of necromancy will be extremely limited. Revivals would be unique and/or expensive and even skilled mages cannot have but a small smattering of undead troops under them at any time. This limitation would also extend somewhat to any golemancers, and thus undercut some of their potential usefulness. 9:10 The problem again I have with ideas like this is greater worldbuilding issues. If a magical logistics team could support an army, they could support a kingdom. As in, the need for agriculture would eliminated. That undermines a lot of already desired setting ideas. If we want to maintain that, instead the logistical support we get from such must be, again, rather limited. As for buffs, anyone familiar with Codzilla from d&d knows the folly of a caster who can support many buffs at the same time, so again, if we want to maintain some balance of power here, this aspect will have to be rather limited. 10:27 It could, but depending on the setting that might not be feasible. For example, such an operation would need a dedicated division of illusionists well trained, well disciplined, and well paid. A pre industrial setting for example, would likely not be able to maintain such a force. As most armies were not standing paid ones back in the day. 10:35 Maybe, but the ability to snipe out troops depends on setting. Sniping against squads is useful because of the limited units squads are made of. Sniping against entire divisions, not so useful, which is why archers shot in mass not at individuals. In general, as far as I can tell, magic seems to shift the organization of troops to a more squad based one, or one of reduced body count. Not to say that any setting with magic will have squads, but rather that collections of troops will be smaller and or more mixed. The degree of that depends on time period setting and the power of magic. Body count will go down and flexibility will go up, that seems to be the observed trend regardless.
What's the coolest inclusion of mages in the military that you've ever found in the fantasy medium?
The turn-based strategy video game "Battle for Wesnoth" has a simple way of including magic: it's a quality that some attacks of some units have, that means the attack will always have at least a 70% chance to hit its target, whereas normally the odds depend on the target's affinity with the terrain it's standing on. Magic basically turns any attack into a homing missile. Magic units thus become experts at taking enemy fortifications. I find this simple and elegant.
I’m not sure it is “cool” but The Battle of Dumai's Wells in the Wheel of Time series is realistic. When conducting a rescue mission against a vastly larger force, 200 mages first arrive by teleporting into the middle of the enemy’s ranks. They then erect a magical dome to stop the enemy coming closer and proceed to slaughter them by the thousand using magic. That’s far more realistic than most fiction where mages are often more for show than substance.
The section on troop types gave me an idea: can you do a video on the Ranger archetype? My fantasy world takes place in a vast and elaborate cave system. The Wild Caverns, deep below the city-state civilization, are dark and unforgiving and full of terrible creatures. I want to create a guild of rangers that take risky tours into the wild for the valuables and power they can find there. Your videos are awesome for world building idea generation!
I’ll add it to the list of ideas, I might combine it with something on professions 😉 and I’m glad you’re enjoying them!
You have a great channel that will surely get a lot more views in time. Love your content.
Thank you so much!
As someone who is a really big fan winged characters, I would absolutely adore a video that includes their role in a fantasy army!!!
That one definitely seems popular so look out for it in a few weeks!
In my setting, magic is pretty rare but not unheard of. To throw an even bigger spanner in the works, most magic users have seemingly random abilities. Planning for any given opponent is next to impossible. But then, most forces don't have any real focus on using magic because finding enough people who use any one ability is nearly impossible. But then this also makes it nearly impossible for *me* to work with too because I have so many potential variables.
The biggest use of magic in my armies that I make use of is my villain's forces. You brought up necromancy but she can go a step further and flat out resurrect anyone she wants, and she doesn't even have to be present on the battlefield for it. So her forces have a reputation for being utterly unstoppable. It's fun to write, especially when it can also delve into how that can impact someone psychologically to die repeatedly.
I think the psychological aspect of being the subject of magic is often underrated. Combine that with normal battlefield ptsd and you’ve got a great recipe for a set of really disturbed individuals! I like it 👏😁
@@JustInTimeWorlds Especially when, as is often the case in fantasy stories, the cast is on the young side. So much complex psychology even in the best of circumstances.
Spoiler alert for Wheel of Time series below:
One of the best series using magic for military applications that I have read is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson. Just as one example, in this world they discover how to make magic "gates" they can walk through to move between far flung locations instantly. In the final series of battles they develop a whole host of novel ways to use these gates. For example, they begin using them for reconnaissance by opening gates above the enemy army so they can look through them. One of the main characters begins to hide his artillery in a cave and just opens gates to various parts of the battlefield, enabling him to keep his artillery hidden and protected, while simultaneously being able to attack anywhere on the battlefield. It's really fantastic.
I think that it is really important to consider how common and how powerful magic is to get a good idea of how it affects a world. Most fantasy settings seem to assume magic is rare and weak so that they can be similar to some real historical setting. However, then magic comes along and it is neither rare nor weak. This leads to an inconsistent setting.
If magic is sufficiently common or powerful I think modern warfare is a better model rather than historical warfare. A skilled swordsman is about as much use on a magic dominated battlefield as they would be on a modern battlefield, i.e. not very useful. When magic becomes equivalent to technology every soldier would be a mage and/or use arcane devices, otherwise they’d lose a battle against a smaller but more magically capable opponent.
Evocation based magic especially lends itself to artillery shelling style of combat (fireballs etc)
In large numbers that would be devasting though in small numbers it’s “only” like another cannon (if they exist). I suspect the most useful magic would be force multiplier effects such as intelligence gathering and mobility enhancers. Historical armies just didn’t have those capabilities but they are a key part of modern warfare. A mage can scry a target before a few large flying carpets deposit some troops supported by golems… or something like that.
Great video! Would love to see that one on fantasy races used for warfare
Thank you! I'll add it to the list :)
I think the one that stood out to me was Jim Butcher’s Codex Alera. The series is basically an exploration of how elemental magic would affect Roman legions, especially the latter books, and society as a whole.
Near every human can use magic, so every soldier is expected to know basic metal, earth, and fire magic (for defense/resistance, drawing out magic properties in roadways, and lighting campfires/lamps, respectively). People who are particularly strong in an element can be given appropriate tasks (like Earthcrafters are often used for construction, Watercrafters as healers, Windcrafters as aerial units and limited transportation, etc.). Innovations for new ways to use these powers also happen in the later books, adding a bit of dynamism to it.
Other intelligent species, meanwhile, don’t have that kind of magic, but they do have their own kinds that affect how their armies and societies are structured.
I really enjoyed the world of Codex Alera. It wasn’t his best work in terms of character and plot, but the world was excellent.
I think you forgot the Medium Infantry and Cavalry, since they're pretty obscure, like the Greeks Thureophoroi who are basically Skirmishers who could fight in a Phalanx, while Medium Cavalry is quite rare as they could be considered Heavy Cavalry, but more nimble.
I’ll go do some research into them for future army videos 😄
You should do Navien magic that would be interesting
I’ll add it to the list ☺️ the inheritance video comes out on Friday 😁
You could do a video and portals
Robin Hobb wrote the Skill, which a character uses like long range telepathy to sabotage entire enemy ships.
I remember that! In the live ships series if memory serves.
@@JustInTimeWorlds I expected it continues on in those books, but I've only read the first 2 of the Farseer series.
I'm gonna read all of her stuff though, it's the coziest misery!
@@FardtilUshid hahaha that’s an an amazing description! I love Robin Hobb, I might go reread her, after I read the Dark Company :)
While there's lots of material about land-based armies, I feel like a lot of people (myself included!) don't know a lot about Navies - let along how magic might be applied to them!
I’ll need a few weeks to do research, but expect it soon 😁 Where did I put my copy of master and commander? ☺️😎
I really wanted to flesh out my fantasy navies and did quite a bit of research on them, though I probably could integrate magic a bit better
@@williamsledge3151 Friday I’m publishing my magic navy bit, I’d be quite interested in your take on that 😊
idk if you have a vid already but I'd love to see a vid bout armies or special forces in differenr terrains like desert, mountain, jungles etc
I've got a royal guard one (ruclips.net/video/cbrDqur3seA/видео.html) and an air force one (ruclips.net/video/cs1gvPrDi-c/видео.html) but funny story, I was just today planning an elite forces video :D I'm glad to hear that there's an audience for that!
@JustInTimeWorlds oh yes I'm very interested especially since the first few stories of my world are in various terrains jungle, desert, swamps, mountains
The first example that comes to my mind of healers on the battlefield is bungou stray dogs. In which a girl could heal everyone by a single touch, and nobody dies, but, with that, the war never ended and some soldiers started to kill themselves to escape from the war
Damn, I haven't read that but that sounds like a very interesting take on magical healing.
It is also important to discuss what siege battles would be like, the formation of armies, the construction of defenses, and the style of combat. I imagine that fireballs would make compact formations of units obsolete, perhaps making the formations of small specialized squads, as in current wars. Walls would also be obsolete, as there are so many ways to break one down using magic. Defenses would perhaps be restricted to underground tunnels, trenches or magical barriers depending on the system used (Especially to deal with air attacks). Magic can also influence the equipment soldiers wear. Depending on how common it is, magical items could be used more. If only gunpowder was capable of completely changing the type of weapons used, magic should have an even greater influence in this regard. There are many other aspects, but I personally think that a spell with so many possibilities would make the battles too chaotic. Just simpler spells, like the style that only does one thing but with several functions (like gunpowder), would be easier to work with. About the video, it's great, I'm glad the algorithm made me find you.
Welcome ☺️ I actually have a 4 hour war compilation which you might enjoy. It digs into a lot of the points you made 😁
@@JustInTimeWorlds I'll have a long night then.
I would very much disagree with the minor impact of mages as artillery pieces. Just as artillery made castles obsolete, the same would apply to sufficiently strong battle mages. Likewise sufficiently strong defensive mages could keep castles in business into the modern era.
5:55 I hear this argument a lot. That a lot of what mages would be doing is counter spelling each other and honestly I think that's rather ignorant. By the same logic we can look to artillery and conclude that since the artillery would largely be counter battering each other, things don't change much. Turns out, this isn't the case. Artillery had a profound game changing effect on the battlefield, but neither did it reduce the usefulness of the infantry. And yes, artillery did revolutionize warfare, far more than just change it, so this idea that direct field attacks aren't a game changer is nonsense.
We should also keep in mind that long range magics might not be a thing, and so attacking mages might not be a good parallel to artillery in what their role would be. Which isn't to say they wouldn't change things like artillery did, just that they won't function like artillery necessarily, it depends on the setting.
7:04 On the healing end of things I think this effect can be somewhat overstated. The vast majority of causalities that happened during battles back in the day was not during the battle but at the end during the rout. As in, after logistical support breaks down, thus subverting the usefulness of army wide healing during battle. In these settings, healers probably will be present, but instead of being logistical support from the back line they will travel with the troops into battle. We also have to be careful with necromancy. If necromancers have the ability to raise massive amounts of troops, the nature of armies would fundamentally change to that of undead ones. It also risks subverting any tropes you may be hoping to maintain. In that sense, the scope of necromancy will be extremely limited. Revivals would be unique and/or expensive and even skilled mages cannot have but a small smattering of undead troops under them at any time. This limitation would also extend somewhat to any golemancers, and thus undercut some of their potential usefulness.
9:10 The problem again I have with ideas like this is greater worldbuilding issues. If a magical logistics team could support an army, they could support a kingdom. As in, the need for agriculture would eliminated. That undermines a lot of already desired setting ideas. If we want to maintain that, instead the logistical support we get from such must be, again, rather limited. As for buffs, anyone familiar with Codzilla from d&d knows the folly of a caster who can support many buffs at the same time, so again, if we want to maintain some balance of power here, this aspect will have to be rather limited.
10:27 It could, but depending on the setting that might not be feasible. For example, such an operation would need a dedicated division of illusionists well trained, well disciplined, and well paid. A pre industrial setting for example, would likely not be able to maintain such a force. As most armies were not standing paid ones back in the day.
10:35 Maybe, but the ability to snipe out troops depends on setting. Sniping against squads is useful because of the limited units squads are made of. Sniping against entire divisions, not so useful, which is why archers shot in mass not at individuals.
In general, as far as I can tell, magic seems to shift the organization of troops to a more squad based one, or one of reduced body count. Not to say that any setting with magic will have squads, but rather that collections of troops will be smaller and or more mixed. The degree of that depends on time period setting and the power of magic. Body count will go down and flexibility will go up, that seems to be the observed trend regardless.