Hey guys, this video was recorded before the edh bans last Monday, and before the episode I made with Cimo last week about those bans. We rushed it out for topical relevance. Enjoy this episode. If you hoped for gameplay today, you can find some here - ruclips.net/video/zYc_DuLzuhw/видео.htmlsi=QZBUKdNYmGaG12c8
@covertgoblue when are you going to play IRL magic with Cimoooo. Because thats where the MTG experience comes. (Make a EDH game with Raran Cimo and Farfa
@@Conradd23 Set so broken they had to print a card that banishes all the card from that set! I still remember what Mr. Garfield said about the set "If we print a set like that again, we must be stupid"
It's kinda hard to remember just how old and powerful MTG is sometimes. It's really done a number on the card game lexicon, I thought he was going to call Timetwister a wheel lol.
In fairness to cimo, yugioh players don't really call them "tutors". Nowadays they're just "searchers", or 90% of the time they're gonna be a "starter", or even back in the day they were a "Stratos" (like demonic tutor, named after a card with the effect), but I'm not too surprised he didn't realise that he was looking at the tutor.
@@IGNEUS1607 well he absolutely knows about the term tutor and has used it before in gameplay videos(watch history of yugioh, especially in the early episodes) And still imo the funniest card to have a "card type" named after it is Gem-Knight Garnet
On the Time Walk playtest card, the way that playtest cards were created originally is "(total cost) specific cost" so the (2)U would be read as "2 mana including one blue," it was always supposed to be 2 mana
@@RLKC8 Starburst was from the same Gamma playtest set, and said "opponent loses next turn" which most playtesters thought meant they just lost the game, not their turn lol They cut it from the Alpha card pool to make it simpler, and the fact that they already had Time Walk which was functionally the same.
In reference to Armageddon: "If this happened to me the first time I ever played I would just quit" Armageddon was included in one of the fourth edition starter boxes.
Back in the day, I played one of those tutorial CDs they used to give out. I remember they included Armageddon in one of the early lessons alongside Wrath of God, to teach the player about overextending.
xD Idk why but this reads so funny to me... "your regular wife". "I know, you had that extra special wife on the show recently, but here I'd like just the regular one, please" Thank you for that^^
@@EliasMheart I wrote regular guest first but then I thought that wasn't specific so then I wrote in wife there and you're right it looks weird but I figured that was fine, people know what I mean.
You missed the best part of the anecdote of the playtest version of Time Walk. It used to say "target player loses next turn" and there was people playing it as though it just made the opponent lose the game as soon as you passed the turn.
That's actually a bit of a conflation of info. The playtest versions of Time Walk already had the text "Take an extra turn", but there was another card, Starburst, which was 2R (in normal formatting, 1R, since that meant 2 total one being red) and read "Opponent loses next turn". The latter (effectively a red Time Walk) was cut from the final set.
@@GrizonII Yeah I thought of that when CGB said time walk in playtesting costed 2U or 3 mana. Playtest cards are weird formatting to people who play with just normal templated cards. Something could be 6GG like craw wurm, but it would be 4GG in alpha, 5th edition, 10th edition, etc.
I play vintage on mtgo. Time vault is an option in some decks. Versions of Shops uses it as a wincon. The negative is that voltaic key is a do nothing for a lot of decks, which in vintage is really, really bad. A lot of decks can't waste a card slot on a piece that doesn't contribute most of the time, whereas shops decks can use it to untap various pieces (grim monolith etc.)
Objection! I'm actually fairly sure that the cost on Time Walk wasn't reduced. I believe that originally, the (2) in the cost of (2U) essentially indicated the total mana value of the card to be played. So it was (2) mana, one of which was (U). Looking through more of the original playtest cards, Regrowth cost (2G), Psionic Blast cost (3U), "Minor Wizard" AKA Prodigal Sorcerer cost (3U), etc, and none of them that I've seen are costed (1X). I'm open to being corrected but I'm pretty confident in this. Either way, crossover videos like this are some of my favorite TCG content on the net, and this one delivers as usual! Well, from what I've seen of it so far. Back to watching.
Kinda feel like that Alpha Lotus sale was made TO break a record, like the buyer was after the title of "guy who bought the most valuable MtG card ever" and overpaid in order to get it.
I think to some extent it also matters that at the time that record was posty's $2 million purchace of the one ring, and the narrative that black lotus is the most expensive magic card might have been important to the buyer for whatever reason
I think some of it is that it is the only perfect 10 in existence. iirc there are 2 others that exist but are signed. as to being more than t1r, lotus is just so much more iconic
I remember when I was in my early 20s, selling a set of the Power 9 so that I could afford rent for a few months, after I lost my job. I kick myself now, and wish I'd found another way, due to how much the price has spiked since then.
I play vintage on mtgo. Yes, time vault is one of the vest things you can be doing. It got worse/less consistent now that Urza's saga got restricted, but its stil pretty freaking busted
The 3 million dollar sale was fake, sold by the grading company to an "anonymous" buyer Considering the one ring with it's entire marketing campaign and bought at a premium by a celebrity only reached 2 million it doesn't take a genius to figure that out
The thing that really throws off price guessing for old powerful cards is whether they know it's on the reserve list or not and there is no logical way to determine if a card is on the RL, especially for non-mtg players.
The price guessing is just a complete crap shoot anyways. I understand that talking about the price is interesting but the guessing part isn't to me at all.
@@eruantien9932 Nah, if we were going to alter power 9 now it's time vault included not close. They had to take it out of the cube because it was that stupidly OP, I would say it's even better than black lotus and sol ring in cube because it's infinite turns with so many different cards now. In vintage people still try to squeeze time vault into most things AFAIK because there are tutors for pieces like tinker and demonic tutor. Library was part of the power 10 back in the day, but even there some people think it should be replaced by time vault especially since time vault is from the OG set, but library is not. Library is also only really played in cube because vintage decks have cut it going back over 15 years. It's also even worse with current mulligan rules encouraging you to mulligan more, which library doesn't work with it essentially becomes a colorless land then.
Channel was printed as an uncommon though, so it was always easy to get a copy, especially after it was restricted and doubly after Revised. Even most casual green decks had one. Same issue with Sol Ring. Not "Power 9" just because of how easy they were to acquire.
Armageddon isn't as crazy as it sounds. We're dealing with crazy fast mana or undercosted extra turns or tutors. In comparison to the, Armageddon costs four and needs you to be ahead already. It's not banned in Legacy unlike the others nor really played.
Funny CGB thought of the story of Moses when describing MTG, that would imply MTG and Yu-Gi-Oh are connected as Moses fled Egypt whit the Israelites and we know how important Egypt is for Yu-Gi-Oh lore.
Vault-Key is still very much a thing that happens in vintage. It's so free to just slot it into most decks that have the space for it. Urza's Saga and Lurrus making it even more insane being able to tutor the key from Saga or replay the pieces off Lurrus. And that's not even bringing up Tinker Ancestral Recall targetting your opponent is also a significant wincon against Doomsday. Recent Vintage tournament had BoshNRoll winning with such maneouvres in the quarterfinals.
My favorite way of winning with ancestral is against oath of druids personally when their creature is buried too deep. Though doomsday is a much more common deck in vintage now because thoracle made it so easy to win with and they have all the best ways to draw into the pile in gitaxian probe, gush, and their own ancestral.
@@aidan8473And in vintage cube time walk is a win condition with Tamiyo, Soulfire Grandmaster, and Underworld Breach. That’s why I put my 4th and 5th Mox on hold to snag one for 600$.
Demonic Tutor I feel the name made me want to say it is in the power 9. Demonic 'Tutor'. it is so infamous tutoring a card is used across card games to describe looking for a card in your deck.
Yeah it was volcanic island and circle of protection: black that got left out of alpha if memory serves. I can't recall if something else got left out of alpha but put in beta.
Tbf I also feel as if Rarran is also the person that is the most inconsistent with his evaluations. Still cannot believe how hard he misjudged Timetwister even if its the weakest of the power 9
As someone who plays both games, I know of only one Yu-Gi-Oh card that technically counts as an extra turn card. It's called The Six Shinobi, which allows you to skip your opponent's next turn if you control 6 Six Samurai monsters with 6 different attributes. The card is bad, you'll basically never get it off, and it's incredibly slow. But it exists, and it does give you an extra turn, so yeah.
I think that might actually be the case. A universes beyond card going for 2 mil probably opened up a whole can of worms for the pricing of old in universe cards
There’s a good chance that sale is fake, as it’s a private sale with an undisclosed buyer. Though your probably right, it was made in response to the one ring
Interestingly, Fiber Jar in the OCG originally didn’t shuffle itself if it died in battle. Because flip effects are “in the aether” while resolving & destroyed in battle. When brought to the TCG, this interaction wasn’t widely understood & Fiber Jar was given an unwritten errata to shuffle itself back. Anybody aware of Parasite Paracide is familiar with Flip monsters being unable to move themself if they’re destroyed. Fiber Jar is a rare exception.
Time Twister is so broken, but you only see it when you play it and see it working. The thing is you reshuffle all your previously broken spells again, while soft disrupting your opponents' hand. And of course, 7 cards for 3 mana is completely insane, and your turn doesn't end, so you draw 7 and continue playing, with all your broken spells again in your deck. This is so strong, and fitts well any deck.
"How do you tell what cards are rare?" This was a feature, not a bug. Early Magic intentionally obfuscated this information. There were basic lands included on every rarity sheet, so you could open Island as your rare card in a pack.
Some of the best decks in Vintage use Time Vault. It's good with Lurrus, it's good in Paradoxical Outcome artifact decks. Other good decks are like Oath of Druids, Doomsday, Mishra's Workshop, White initiative, Sulti control, Dredge.
I really like the story behind Time Walk in development. People thought it was an instant win because it was worded "Target player loses next turn." So naturally they thought it meant that the target lost as soon as the next turn started.
that playtest set actually included both time walk as it currently exists, and the card that you're describing, only it was red. the idea was that blue would get a card that grants an extra turn, and red would have a card that makes the opponent skip a turn. they cut the red card because the difference was only relevant and multiplayer and they didn't want to have two cards that function the same 99 times out of a 100.
A little sad that CGB didn't mention more context like how Channel is legal (but one of the few restricted cards) in Timeless and how Armageddon was often used as a White Weenie finisher against slower decks, so in 1v1 it wouldn't be that miserable in that you'd (ideally) finish the game quickly.
Also there were more mana rocks back then. It's an infamous play but it's not like it was just a toxic card, it was intended to end games very quickly. Hating on land destruction is actually stranger than hating on discard or counterspells or any of the million things casual MtG players like to whine about.
@@Spaced92Exactly. I'd even argue Armageddon has it's place in casual commander (albeit context dependent) with Avacyn Archangel of Hope, or maybe crucible of worlds + Azusa
I used to play Yugioh back in high school, after I got out of college in 2019 I got into MTG. As a viewer of both of these channels at one point in time or another, I wholeheartedly approve of this collab. Yugioh and MTG players have a lot of solidarity in how they feel their games are being mismanaged. It's great to see folks like Cimo and CGB making content together, same with the Proff from TCC and Team APS.
I played Magic for the first time back in 1995. I heard tell of the fabled Black Lotus. The most powerful card ever made and permanently banned. I was in awe. I asked what it did. Thirteen year old me was very disappointed to learn the answer was "You get three mana once." As a 43 year old with decades of various card games experience behind him now, I understand why that's a problematic mechanic. For a kid just learning the concept of card games for the first time it seems very underwhelming.
Time Vault has a storied history. It is one of the few cards that got errata to curb its power level. (Sort of like Hearthstone does, but without the advantage of being a digital game that can be updated). It got some extra text about time counters that kept the original intent (skip a turn and get to take that turn later). The result was a flavorful but rather bad card. It stayed like that for close to a decade, until a combo was found with a newly printed card. This combo didn't involve taking extra turns, but rather it abused skipping your next many turns to get to tap the card many times now, ending the game before getting to the skipped turns. As a lot, it got some more errata, restricting the untap effect to a one per turn trigger. Half a year later, they erratta'd the time counters away. However, it still got some text to prevent the easiest combos: it got the text "If Time Vault would become untapped, instead choose one -- untap Time Vault and you skip your next turn or Time Vault remains tapped." This didn't shut down all combos, though, as things that would temporarily copy the Time Vault could still give you Time Walks. In particular, Mizzium Transreliquat could temporarily become a copy every turn, which would still give infinite turns. This held up for two years, until it took its final and also original form in 2008 when they decided to remove all power level errata. All combos were possible again and the card got banned/restricted everywhere again (you had been free to play the full four during the errata days). Of course, this whole history influences its price over the years, and indirectly is current price.
I know two things about yugioh: Blue Eyes White Dragon is the guy, and Upstart Goblin was slept on. Super impressed by Cimo's ability to assess these cards in the dark. Loved his comparisons like calling Lotus multiple time walks, astutely referring to time walk as a time skip rather than an extra turn, and identifying that channel existed in the same atmosphere as lotus/moxen to rate its power. Lots more Cimo please!
Not playing, but watched a decent amount of vintage. Timevault+key isn't like a primary strategy to win the game for most decks, but moreso decks with artifacts have it floating around as an incidental/alternate wincon because it takes away very little deckspace and drawing one piece + dt or tinker gets there. Also can use urzas saga for key cause, of course you can. I think most vintage is played on MTGO for obvious reasons. Not even the most expensive format on there because the power cards are fairly cheap.
I wanna see Cimo react to the Commander Ban explanations, since he's pretty familiar with the history and bans in ygo, I think it would be fun to see him react to some of the silly reasons cards get banned or not banned in Commander
Channel brought back a near ptsd moment from school, when doing a mini-tournament. First match, instantly on the receiving end of a Channel + Blaze combo. Was not expecting it from him as he was well known for playing Sliver decks, and instantly side decked 3 Hallows cards which were just random fillers at the time, which ended up saving me. Fastest match ever, with total of around 8 turns total. Did wonder why this card was even allowed to exist, despite we had no ban list other than black lotus, rofl.
Another thing about Time Vault is that it is actually the most errataed card in Magic, because as it turns out, being able to skip turns creates rulings nightmares. One of those erratas created a really dumb infinite combo with Wall Of Roots, because it turns out that the time period in between turns (when you decide whether or not you’re skipping your turn) isn’t technically part of a turn, so you could activate Wall Of Roots an infinite number of times (because state-based actions aren’t being checked and mana sources could be used at literally any time back then). Then with Stasis in play, you could skip directly to your upkeep, allowing you to actually use that mana before it disappears. Time Vault was enabling infinite combos in decks that *weren’t even running Time Vault*. (Granted, this combo got errataed out of existence within a week.)
They hold multiple events every year, usually one huge one in Las Vegas. They call the events "Eternal Weekend" currently there are 3 lined up one in Shizouka Japan October 12-13, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Nov 21-24, and Prague, Czech Republic December 6-8. Also some events called Legacy/Vintage Champs with big prize pools as well usually $20,000+ I believe over 100,000$ a few times? especially the Las Vegas ones. security is usually pretty good at these events and sometimes people have body guards because of how much money they are carrying around in decks/brief cases.
Okay, I know these are difficult discussions to be had amongst friendly content creators but CGB should politely introduce a timer, keep things moving faster: cimooo is taking too much time mulling over his answers, he tries too hard. The "hm, but maybe... but the again... hm, still..." phase is too long, man. Just go for it! :D Keep the conversation flowing, you can expand on your thoughts once CGB reveals the answer and adds further context. Let's keep it snappy, boys! :D
I wanna add to this, dead air is the enemy of entertainment, I love these videos but lately Cimo has been taking his time (for good reason) to make an evaluation, please consider either editing (bad, content suffers), having a timer (weird, evaluation suffers) or both people engaging more actively into evaluation, honestly there's not a very good way to put this and I mean no bad intent towards either of you, I've been watching every collab between you guys and I hope there's a lot more to come
Eternal Weekend held at US, Europe and Japan I think is probably the one big tournament where one gets to play competitive vintage outside of MTGO Vintage is only sort of semi-supported by WOTC so these tournaments typically actually allow some number of proxies as otherwise there would not be enough players to afford to play the format. Ironically this probably makes the format somewhat cheaper than Legacy depending of the deck.
Really want you to show him Masterpiece cards. Their power levels and prices are all over the place. They're also super unique looking, so I think that'll blow him away
Time Vault in Vintage is one of the best thing you could be doing in specific decks, but it's still a slow way to win. Dredge and Mono White Initiative just kill you faster than you can get the combo on board (1 copy really means you have to search for it, and it is vulnerable to FOW). It is a fine a card in vintage, but just as a way to end the game sometimes. There are other cards way more broken in the game itself. The One Ring just stops this combo and the deck that play the One Ring can basically loop it infinitely. I haven't played with the new ban list, but the restriction of Urza's Saga means you can't get key to the city as easily out and the decks that played Time Vault have kinda disappeared from the meta. It's not played in Lurrus Saga decks, but it is still played in the Shops deck. In vintage there are 4 big decks that fight each other and some other other smaller meta share decks. The big 4 are Dredge, Lurrus Saga, Mono W Initiative and Shops. Smaller decks are like Show and Tell with Atraxa and stuff like that.
Vintage player here: Time vault used to be among the best things to do in the format, but ever since urza's saga got restricted it's been taking a bit of a backseat. Notably, the combo used to get slotted into otherwise fair decks like UB luurus saga due to how easy it was to search out key, and now that saga can't be a 4 of time vault is basically only in Jewel shops and some paridoxical outcome builds
The day the ban on Channel was announced around 2012ish, my lgs had them in the bulk commons, 15 for $1, all editons aside from Alpha. I bought about 20, passed them around to friends just for fun, we all built an insane channel deck for kitchen table, and I sold my copies with my collection years back. I'm glad to see the value increase on them, and I hope anyone I gave some to manage to turn them into more.
Yeah, destroy all land cards are horrible and not fun! I don't know why they exist. Also you keep nailing these guesses on Mtg cards dude! I'm impressed!
Interesting that you've never heard about Eternal Weekends - big Vintage and Legacy tournaments happening every year in Japan, Europe and North America. There are also plently of other competitive vintage tournaments happening all over the world.
Cimo's rant about land destruction was hilarious, since as other commenters have said, both Armageddon and Wrath of God were punish cards for greed/overextension. It's very much up for debate if that style of card is healthy design or if using that against basic resources is healthy, but hearing someone outside just go off about it is funny to me. Edit: Ya, early MtG printed all sorts of jank for their early sets. Hindsight is 20/20, but they were really the first to do these things. Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Hearthstone, all of the card games afterwards and even MtG itself can learn from the mistakes from the early printings. They don't always do, and it's especially sad when Magic doesn't, but those initial sets is where we see the proof of 'ya, that was kindof dumb to put that in the game that way.".
I found this line: "Imagine, in a Commander game, Armageddon; pass." Also, casting Armageddon in a random Commander pod is grounds for dragging someone over the table by their neck.
the raging river card reminded me so much of the yugioh anime, where every duel had some "weird" special conditions to them... and cimo nails the price, coincidence? dont think so :))) great video as always
A fun way of think about time walk is that in it's "worst" case, that is using all you mana on it, and passing. It is a free card, with no cost (since you gain the mana next turn). So it is a smaller deck.
The Collector’s Edition Timetwister which is technically not legal in anything (pretty much everyone will allow them in EDH) are around $800. I got mine years ago for $150ish.
These videos have been so great. I’m glad CGB has been able to find something outside of playing Standard Bo1 to keep both himself and us happy. Give me all the Cimo!
One of my favorite stories about Time Vault is that they've issued so much errata for it, at one point it was part of a two-card infinite with Flame Fusillade that didn't even care about the extra turns at all!
I played HS,yugi and magic a bit (Tournament wise) and one thing i was lovely befuddled of and started to love... where the Un-Sets. Show them to the others! It will blow their mind and it will be so much fun (so in the spirit of the Un-Sets) :P
2024 Vintage player here: Time Vault + Key combo is still one of the best things to be doing and is one of the most popular win conditions in the format. Typically decks will generate infinite turns and then win via construct beat down.
The funny thing is that for most of the early years of Magic, Armageddon really was just fine. Good counter spells and hand disruption kept it from wreaking havoc excessively.
Old School also influences the prices of these cards quite a bit. Especially ones that are reserved list and playable there. For example, Time Vault is only niche playability in Old School while being much more common in Vintage and Cube.
Yes Time Vault is still played in vintage, one of the best things you can do for sure. Keep in mind that every vintage deck is likely to have multiple degenrate combo kills. Tinker, Bolas' Citadel + Sensei's Top is another combo you'd likely see in the same deck unless you're playing against Lurrus.
My favorite thing about Armageddon is not only did it get reprinted, but they also printed a card called Ravages of War, which is the same card type, colors, cost, and effect. It is word for word the same exact card, except now you can run twice as many Armageddon copies under a different name.
fun fact: the original minimal deck size was 40 cards, so you could have 4 copies of the power 9 + any wincon and just win on turn 1 with a loop of extra turns, draws and graveyard recursion that was basically deterministic
I defense of Raging River it does play way better than it reads. The idea is that you cut in half the possible defending creatures because if they left one side without creatures you can just attack that side and not be blocked - this does give you a lot of control on the attacking since it also allow you to not be blocked by a specific creature you want to avoid. With that said, it is not worth the price tag
The thing about the first set other than being the first TCG is that they had no idea how popular magic would become, and expected people to have a limited amount of cards with which to build their decks and trade with other people, they didn't look at it with the context of having access to every card. In fact in the beginning there was no limit to how many copies of a card you can have in your deck
22:22 Actually I haven't seen this clip, but I think I know what happened. During the playtests, casting cost was written as total cost to play it, and then how much of that mana needs to be in a given color, whereas on printed cards it's written as generic plus colored costs. What this means is an Alpha Time Walk reads 1U, but a playtest Time Walk would read 2U. They're both 2 mana, one of which needs to be blue, but written differently.
@@Pinfeldorf I double checked Alpha and I had no idea there were so many low cost cards with double or triple pips. I could totally see this being the case. Still, there are some decently statted fatties one could drop with it like Earth Elemental and Shivan Dragon.
I play vintage in 2024, and yes time vault is one of the best things to be doing. it’s much harder to find key now after the urza’s saga restriction, though
"Blue-eyes is the face of YGO as much as Black Lotus is to MTG." You couldn't be more right, I used to buy magazines for these two games, and you guessed it: the YGO one was called "Dragon Blanc" (White Dragon) and the MTG one was called "Lotus Noir" (Black Lotus)!
They didnt reduce the cost if time walk, the og playtest cards showed mana as the total amount (2 in time walks case) and thenwhat colors your needed (a single blue) so the cost was shown as 2U, 2 mana 1 of which must be blue. Some people found it confusing so Richard changed it to be how we now know
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Hey guys, this video was recorded before the edh bans last Monday, and before the episode I made with Cimo last week about those bans. We rushed it out for topical relevance. Enjoy this episode. If you hoped for gameplay today, you can find some here - ruclips.net/video/zYc_DuLzuhw/видео.htmlsi=QZBUKdNYmGaG12c8
@covertgoblue when are you going to play IRL magic with Cimoooo. Because thats where the MTG experience comes. (Make a EDH game with Raran Cimo and Farfa
Please GCB, I'm begging you. Stoneforge Mystic in one of these videos. Absolute bait card of broken-ness.
Thank you CGB we love you
Yeah, so this is what he was referencing about you lying to him lmao
lol having him say "Commander players are unhinged" even before the reactions to 3 out of the 4 cards being banned is hilarious to me.
Missing the extremely iconic messa falcon (played by a MTG legend during a pro tour)
Alpha wasn't powerful enough to print that card... They needed to save it for the truly powerful set: Homelands
@@Conradd23 Set so broken they had to print a card that banishes all the card from that set! I still remember what Mr. Garfield said about the set "If we print a set like that again, we must be stupid"
It was from a later set, so wait for that video
He's already been shown Mesa Falcon though. His first reaction was "Why are you showing me this?"
48:13 Cimo correctly guessed it wasn’t Power 9- I don’t think it matters for the video, just making sure he gets credit on the scorecard lol
I would have commented the same thing. Justice for Cimo! :)
It honestly should have been over like Timetwister.
42:30 I think it's funny how cimo is describing the concept of a tutor, while looking at the card that named the mechanic lmao
Beat me to it. Wanted to say the same thing.
It's kinda hard to remember just how old and powerful MTG is sometimes. It's really done a number on the card game lexicon, I thought he was going to call Timetwister a wheel lol.
In fairness to cimo, yugioh players don't really call them "tutors". Nowadays they're just "searchers", or 90% of the time they're gonna be a "starter", or even back in the day they were a "Stratos" (like demonic tutor, named after a card with the effect), but I'm not too surprised he didn't realise that he was looking at the tutor.
@@IGNEUS1607 well he absolutely knows about the term tutor and has used it before in gameplay videos(watch history of yugioh, especially in the early episodes)
And still imo the funniest card to have a "card type" named after it is Gem-Knight Garnet
@@IGNEUS1607 Or we call them recruiters
On the Time Walk playtest card, the way that playtest cards were created originally is "(total cost) specific cost" so the (2)U would be read as "2 mana including one blue," it was always supposed to be 2 mana
Thank god they changed it!
wasn't is (2)R?
@@pairot01 Yeah, part of their Gamma playtesting feedback was that everyone was confused by how the old mana cost layout worked lol
@@RLKC8 Starburst was from the same Gamma playtest set, and said "opponent loses next turn" which most playtesters thought meant they just lost the game, not their turn lol
They cut it from the Alpha card pool to make it simpler, and the fact that they already had Time Walk which was functionally the same.
@@bricknolty5478 wait I thought star burst became time walk
Let's see if Cimo is going to call it 'Powerful nine' the whole time like Rarran did.
This is just slander. Have just re-watched that video, and Mr. Ran uses "Power" at least once.
It's Rarran and Not Rarran, there's no comparison
Man is a trendsetter, what ya gonna do
Stupid question. But where is this video. I don’t find it.
@@maximegirard9099 search rarran power 9. It's on rarrans channel.
In reference to Armageddon: "If this happened to me the first time I ever played I would just quit"
Armageddon was included in one of the fourth edition starter boxes.
And let's not forget that Ravages of War (same effect and same cost) exists in Portal 3 Kingdoms which is a set that was aimed at new players.
wotc used to loooooove mass land destruction in magic lol
@@ITAmich That one's also in the Fallout Commander set.
Back in the day, I played one of those tutorial CDs they used to give out. I remember they included Armageddon in one of the early lessons alongside Wrath of God, to teach the player about overextending.
@@sagecolvard9644 at least that's on flavor
I know Rarran is coming for commander one day but please get Cimoo in there with him, with your regular wife guest that's 4 and it would be awesome.
Or bring Mega Mogwai
xD Idk why but this reads so funny to me... "your regular wife".
"I know, you had that extra special wife on the show recently, but here I'd like just the regular one, please"
Thank you for that^^
@@EliasMheart I wrote regular guest first but then I thought that wasn't specific so then I wrote in wife there and you're right it looks weird but I figured that was fine, people know what I mean.
You missed the best part of the anecdote of the playtest version of Time Walk. It used to say "target player loses next turn" and there was people playing it as though it just made the opponent lose the game as soon as you passed the turn.
That's actually a bit of a conflation of info. The playtest versions of Time Walk already had the text "Take an extra turn", but there was another card, Starburst, which was 2R (in normal formatting, 1R, since that meant 2 total one being red) and read "Opponent loses next turn". The latter (effectively a red Time Walk) was cut from the final set.
is it real lmao? that's so funny
@@GrizonII Yeah I thought of that when CGB said time walk in playtesting costed 2U or 3 mana. Playtest cards are weird formatting to people who play with just normal templated cards. Something could be 6GG like craw wurm, but it would be 4GG in alpha, 5th edition, 10th edition, etc.
I play vintage on mtgo. Time vault is an option in some decks. Versions of Shops uses it as a wincon. The negative is that voltaic key is a do nothing for a lot of decks, which in vintage is really, really bad. A lot of decks can't waste a card slot on a piece that doesn't contribute most of the time, whereas shops decks can use it to untap various pieces (grim monolith etc.)
good looking out xD
Objection! I'm actually fairly sure that the cost on Time Walk wasn't reduced. I believe that originally, the (2) in the cost of (2U) essentially indicated the total mana value of the card to be played. So it was (2) mana, one of which was (U). Looking through more of the original playtest cards, Regrowth cost (2G), Psionic Blast cost (3U), "Minor Wizard" AKA Prodigal Sorcerer cost (3U), etc, and none of them that I've seen are costed (1X). I'm open to being corrected but I'm pretty confident in this.
Either way, crossover videos like this are some of my favorite TCG content on the net, and this one delivers as usual! Well, from what I've seen of it so far. Back to watching.
Correct. I think MaRo or some other writer for the mothership talked about it when they were talking about playtest cards.
Yep! All the Gamma cards were formatted that way. It got changed for Alpha, as playtesting revealed it was more clear that way.
I came to the comments to say exactly this
There is a Black Lotus car (Lotus Evora 400) with reg number ADD3MANA
that is really clever
Cimo agonizes over the prices like he's going to win it if he's right.
48:36 cimo I believe said he didn’t think it was in the power 9 but was marked as wrong
Kinda feel like that Alpha Lotus sale was made TO break a record, like the buyer was after the title of "guy who bought the most valuable MtG card ever" and overpaid in order to get it.
I think to some extent it also matters that at the time that record was posty's $2 million purchace of the one ring, and the narrative that black lotus is the most expensive magic card might have been important to the buyer for whatever reason
I mean considering the sale was from a grading company to an anonymous buyer that's the least suspicious part of that sale
I think some of it is that it is the only perfect 10 in existence. iirc there are 2 others that exist but are signed. as to being more than t1r, lotus is just so much more iconic
Lmao shady af
39:52 Armageddon’s restriction comes from how you’ll never be asked to play again and probably get your kneecaps broken in the parking lot.
Sounds too tame of a restriction tbh. Needs harsher consequences 😂
I remember when I was in my early 20s, selling a set of the Power 9 so that I could afford rent for a few months, after I lost my job. I kick myself now, and wish I'd found another way, due to how much the price has spiked since then.
At least you got something for yours, my grandparents decided I was too old to be keeping a children's card game around the house...
@@Wearywastrel Big ouch. oof.
Woulds been better to sell a car or something like that
I play vintage on mtgo. Yes, time vault is one of the vest things you can be doing. It got worse/less consistent now that Urza's saga got restricted, but its stil pretty freaking busted
The 3 million dollar sale was fake, sold by the grading company to an "anonymous" buyer
Considering the one ring with it's entire marketing campaign and bought at a premium by a celebrity only reached 2 million it doesn't take a genius to figure that out
I could have sworn said celebrity also bought a black lotus psa9.9 for over 1 mil but under 2
I do believe Posty bought that Lotus for 800k, and it's artist signed.
Also the artist print of it
@@SyxxPunk That's what it was, yeah
The thing that really throws off price guessing for old powerful cards is whether they know it's on the reserve list or not and there is no logical way to determine if a card is on the RL, especially for non-mtg players.
The price guessing is just a complete crap shoot anyways. I understand that talking about the price is interesting but the guessing part isn't to me at all.
Tbh, Channel probably *deserved* to be in the power nine.
love how even after cgb told him it was banned everywhere he was still like yeah it seems good i guess
If we're adding a 10th power card it's gotta be Library of Alexandria
@@jackbaker6372 Possibly controversial opinion; Timetwister should be demoted out of the P9, and Library should take its place.
@@eruantien9932 Nah, if we were going to alter power 9 now it's time vault included not close. They had to take it out of the cube because it was that stupidly OP, I would say it's even better than black lotus and sol ring in cube because it's infinite turns with so many different cards now. In vintage people still try to squeeze time vault into most things AFAIK because there are tutors for pieces like tinker and demonic tutor.
Library was part of the power 10 back in the day, but even there some people think it should be replaced by time vault especially since time vault is from the OG set, but library is not. Library is also only really played in cube because vintage decks have cut it going back over 15 years. It's also even worse with current mulligan rules encouraging you to mulligan more, which library doesn't work with it essentially becomes a colorless land then.
Channel was printed as an uncommon though, so it was always easy to get a copy, especially after it was restricted and doubly after Revised. Even most casual green decks had one. Same issue with Sol Ring. Not "Power 9" just because of how easy they were to acquire.
46:28 As he says "I actually don't think this is good enough" about Demonic Tutor, an ad for something called "Yu-gi-oh player copes" pops up
Armageddon isn't as crazy as it sounds. We're dealing with crazy fast mana or undercosted extra turns or tutors. In comparison to the, Armageddon costs four and needs you to be ahead already. It's not banned in Legacy unlike the others nor really played.
Funny CGB thought of the story of Moses when describing MTG, that would imply MTG and Yu-Gi-Oh are connected as Moses fled Egypt whit the Israelites and we know how important Egypt is for Yu-Gi-Oh lore.
And don’t forget Moses parted the Red Sea with a Beyblade
And who can forget the iconic parting of the Raging River?
and don't forget there is no archeological evidence for the exodus
Time walk's mana cost wasn't actually reduced, playtest cards just wrote it differently. The 2 reffers to the cmc, not the generic cost
Interesting
Competitive Vintage is typically played on MTGO, where it costs a reasonable amount of money to get a deck. No one plays on paper really.
for the last 3-4 days i have watched every single video that consist of a combination of CGB-Cimo-Rarran.. Please, never stop doing these videos
Vault-Key is still very much a thing that happens in vintage. It's so free to just slot it into most decks that have the space for it.
Urza's Saga and Lurrus making it even more insane being able to tutor the key from Saga or replay the pieces off Lurrus.
And that's not even bringing up Tinker
Ancestral Recall targetting your opponent is also a significant wincon against Doomsday. Recent Vintage tournament had BoshNRoll winning with such maneouvres in the quarterfinals.
My favorite way of winning with ancestral is against oath of druids personally when their creature is buried too deep. Though doomsday is a much more common deck in vintage now because thoracle made it so easy to win with and they have all the best ways to draw into the pile in gitaxian probe, gush, and their own ancestral.
Holy sh*t, "Black Lotus is basically four Time Walks" is... one of the soundbytes of all time.
He's basically correct!
He also said "A Sword of Revealing Light is basically 3 card draws" so that's just how his brain functions.
@@ItsPForPeaHe's good at card evaluation then, sometimes Time Walk is just a really off rate Explore.
@@aidan8473And in vintage cube time walk is a win condition with Tamiyo, Soulfire Grandmaster, and Underworld Breach.
That’s why I put my 4th and 5th Mox on hold to snag one for 600$.
@@drokhalis3338 600 is a steal I'm astonished it's that low
My 1994 deck would be worth a ton right now
Power 9
12 dual lands
4 tabernacle
Demonic Tutor I feel the name made me want to say it is in the power 9. Demonic 'Tutor'. it is so infamous tutoring a card is used across card games to describe looking for a card in your deck.
By that logic Millstone should also be in the Power 9 lol.
@Noobie2k7 Tutoring is, in general, a lot stronger than milling lol
pretty sure the only thing holding Demonic Tutor back is the fact that it's a sorcery and not an instant.
@@Noobie2k7 by that logic Garnet should be in the power 9
"there's only one card that lets you draw three cards for one blue mana" (shoves my treasure cruises under the desk)
Pay no attention to the ancestral vision behind the curtain.
I love both of your channels and seeing frequent collabs lately have made me so happy
Somehow Volcanic Island left out of Alpha for the printers to print.😂
yea., the Art got turned into Birds of Paradise
And the A/B/U art for Plateau got lost, so it got new art in Revised
Yeah it was volcanic island and circle of protection: black that got left out of alpha if memory serves. I can't recall if something else got left out of alpha but put in beta.
Love that CGB is showing a card that Rarran failed to analyze correctly just to get another chance to roast him lmao
Rarran constantly catching strays from these guys
Tbf I also feel as if Rarran is also the person that is the most inconsistent with his evaluations. Still cannot believe how hard he misjudged Timetwister even if its the weakest of the power 9
As someone who plays both games, I know of only one Yu-Gi-Oh card that technically counts as an extra turn card. It's called The Six Shinobi, which allows you to skip your opponent's next turn if you control 6 Six Samurai monsters with 6 different attributes. The card is bad, you'll basically never get it off, and it's incredibly slow. But it exists, and it does give you an extra turn, so yeah.
There's also Arcana Force The World, which is probably the most known one because many people have tried to break it.
Damn I hadn't heard about the april sale, someone looked at one ring breaking the record and said 'bet' XD
I think that might actually be the case. A universes beyond card going for 2 mil probably opened up a whole can of worms for the pricing of old in universe cards
There’s a good chance that sale is fake, as it’s a private sale with an undisclosed buyer. Though your probably right, it was made in response to the one ring
Interestingly, Fiber Jar in the OCG originally didn’t shuffle itself if it died in battle. Because flip effects are “in the aether” while resolving & destroyed in battle. When brought to the TCG, this interaction wasn’t widely understood & Fiber Jar was given an unwritten errata to shuffle itself back.
Anybody aware of Parasite Paracide is familiar with Flip monsters being unable to move themself if they’re destroyed. Fiber Jar is a rare exception.
Time Twister is so broken, but you only see it when you play it and see it working. The thing is you reshuffle all your previously broken spells again, while soft disrupting your opponents' hand. And of course, 7 cards for 3 mana is completely insane, and your turn doesn't end, so you draw 7 and continue playing, with all your broken spells again in your deck. This is so strong, and fitts well any deck.
"How do you tell what cards are rare?"
This was a feature, not a bug.
Early Magic intentionally obfuscated this information. There were basic lands included on every rarity sheet, so you could open Island as your rare card in a pack.
Man he really drugged out that Black lotus price guess
Would have been fun to talk about the conspiracy theories on the recent lotus sale being so high specifically to spite the One Ring sale
Some of the best decks in Vintage use Time Vault. It's good with Lurrus, it's good in Paradoxical Outcome artifact decks. Other good decks are like Oath of Druids, Doomsday, Mishra's Workshop, White initiative, Sulti control, Dredge.
I really like the story behind Time Walk in development. People thought it was an instant win because it was worded "Target player loses next turn." So naturally they thought it meant that the target lost as soon as the next turn started.
that playtest set actually included both time walk as it currently exists, and the card that you're describing, only it was red. the idea was that blue would get a card that grants an extra turn, and red would have a card that makes the opponent skip a turn. they cut the red card because the difference was only relevant and multiplayer and they didn't want to have two cards that function the same 99 times out of a 100.
$2,25 just for shipping? Outrageous! I'm not buying that alpha Black Lotus!
That card shouldnt be allowed to be shipped that cheaply tbh
Little known fact: In the ancient tongue of the heart of the cards @Cimoooooooo translates into "One who rages with river"
Time Vault is still one of the best things to be doing in Vintage, now that Urza's Saga searches for the key. :)
A little sad that CGB didn't mention more context like how Channel is legal (but one of the few restricted cards) in Timeless and how Armageddon was often used as a White Weenie finisher against slower decks, so in 1v1 it wouldn't be that miserable in that you'd (ideally) finish the game quickly.
Also there were more mana rocks back then. It's an infamous play but it's not like it was just a toxic card, it was intended to end games very quickly. Hating on land destruction is actually stranger than hating on discard or counterspells or any of the million things casual MtG players like to whine about.
@@Spaced92Exactly. I'd even argue Armageddon has it's place in casual commander (albeit context dependent) with Avacyn Archangel of Hope, or maybe crucible of worlds + Azusa
I used to play Yugioh back in high school, after I got out of college in 2019 I got into MTG. As a viewer of both of these channels at one point in time or another, I wholeheartedly approve of this collab. Yugioh and MTG players have a lot of solidarity in how they feel their games are being mismanaged. It's great to see folks like Cimo and CGB making content together, same with the Proff from TCC and Team APS.
I played Magic for the first time back in 1995. I heard tell of the fabled Black Lotus. The most powerful card ever made and permanently banned. I was in awe. I asked what it did. Thirteen year old me was very disappointed to learn the answer was "You get three mana once."
As a 43 year old with decades of various card games experience behind him now, I understand why that's a problematic mechanic. For a kid just learning the concept of card games for the first time it seems very underwhelming.
1:09:09 "I love that you have this whole game within a game going on."
Well now you need to show him Shahrazad.
Time Vault has a storied history. It is one of the few cards that got errata to curb its power level. (Sort of like Hearthstone does, but without the advantage of being a digital game that can be updated). It got some extra text about time counters that kept the original intent (skip a turn and get to take that turn later). The result was a flavorful but rather bad card.
It stayed like that for close to a decade, until a combo was found with a newly printed card. This combo didn't involve taking extra turns, but rather it abused skipping your next many turns to get to tap the card many times now, ending the game before getting to the skipped turns. As a lot, it got some more errata, restricting the untap effect to a one per turn trigger.
Half a year later, they erratta'd the time counters away. However, it still got some text to prevent the easiest combos: it got the text "If Time Vault would become untapped, instead choose one -- untap Time Vault and you skip your next turn or Time Vault remains tapped." This didn't shut down all combos, though, as things that would temporarily copy the Time Vault could still give you Time Walks. In particular, Mizzium Transreliquat could temporarily become a copy every turn, which would still give infinite turns.
This held up for two years, until it took its final and also original form in 2008 when they decided to remove all power level errata. All combos were possible again and the card got banned/restricted everywhere again (you had been free to play the full four during the errata days).
Of course, this whole history influences its price over the years, and indirectly is current price.
CGB is just a nice guy, he's the type of person you would be lucky to be a friend to
I know two things about yugioh: Blue Eyes White Dragon is the guy, and Upstart Goblin was slept on.
Super impressed by Cimo's ability to assess these cards in the dark. Loved his comparisons like calling Lotus multiple time walks, astutely referring to time walk as a time skip rather than an extra turn, and identifying that channel existed in the same atmosphere as lotus/moxen to rate its power.
Lots more Cimo please!
Good ol' Cimo. He really puts a lot thought and effort into these videos and I really appreciate that.
Not playing, but watched a decent amount of vintage. Timevault+key isn't like a primary strategy to win the game for most decks, but moreso decks with artifacts have it floating around as an incidental/alternate wincon because it takes away very little deckspace and drawing one piece + dt or tinker gets there. Also can use urzas saga for key cause, of course you can. I think most vintage is played on MTGO for obvious reasons. Not even the most expensive format on there because the power cards are fairly cheap.
I wanna see Cimo react to the Commander Ban explanations, since he's pretty familiar with the history and bans in ygo, I think it would be fun to see him react to some of the silly reasons cards get banned or not banned in Commander
Didn't he recently do a video with CGB on that very topic??
Channel brought back a near ptsd moment from school, when doing a mini-tournament. First match, instantly on the receiving end of a Channel + Blaze combo. Was not expecting it from him as he was well known for playing Sliver decks, and instantly side decked 3 Hallows cards which were just random fillers at the time, which ended up saving me. Fastest match ever, with total of around 8 turns total.
Did wonder why this card was even allowed to exist, despite we had no ban list other than black lotus, rofl.
Another thing about Time Vault is that it is actually the most errataed card in Magic, because as it turns out, being able to skip turns creates rulings nightmares.
One of those erratas created a really dumb infinite combo with Wall Of Roots, because it turns out that the time period in between turns (when you decide whether or not you’re skipping your turn) isn’t technically part of a turn, so you could activate Wall Of Roots an infinite number of times (because state-based actions aren’t being checked and mana sources could be used at literally any time back then). Then with Stasis in play, you could skip directly to your upkeep, allowing you to actually use that mana before it disappears.
Time Vault was enabling infinite combos in decks that *weren’t even running Time Vault*.
(Granted, this combo got errataed out of existence within a week.)
They hold multiple events every year, usually one huge one in Las Vegas. They call the events "Eternal Weekend" currently there are 3 lined up one in Shizouka Japan October 12-13, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Nov 21-24, and Prague, Czech Republic December 6-8.
Also some events called Legacy/Vintage Champs with big prize pools as well usually $20,000+ I believe over 100,000$ a few times? especially the Las Vegas ones. security is usually pretty good at these events and sometimes people have body guards because of how much money they are carrying around in decks/brief cases.
Thanks for lightening up my day have been without power and service. Got my service back and saw a cgb video and had something to look forward to.
56:50 You gotta chat with Bosh N Roll about Eternal Weekend, and some of the crazy Vintage tournaments that have Black Lotus in the prize pool lol
Okay, I know these are difficult discussions to be had amongst friendly content creators but CGB should politely introduce a timer, keep things moving faster: cimooo is taking too much time mulling over his answers, he tries too hard. The "hm, but maybe... but the again... hm, still..." phase is too long, man. Just go for it! :D Keep the conversation flowing, you can expand on your thoughts once CGB reveals the answer and adds further context. Let's keep it snappy, boys! :D
I wanna add to this, dead air is the enemy of entertainment, I love these videos but lately Cimo has been taking his time (for good reason) to make an evaluation, please consider either editing (bad, content suffers), having a timer (weird, evaluation suffers) or both people engaging more actively into evaluation, honestly there's not a very good way to put this and I mean no bad intent towards either of you, I've been watching every collab between you guys and I hope there's a lot more to come
Eternal Weekend held at US, Europe and Japan I think is probably the one big tournament where one gets to play competitive vintage outside of MTGO
Vintage is only sort of semi-supported by WOTC so these tournaments typically actually allow some number of proxies as otherwise there would not be enough players to afford to play the format. Ironically this probably makes the format somewhat cheaper than Legacy depending of the deck.
Really want you to show him Masterpiece cards. Their power levels and prices are all over the place. They're also super unique looking, so I think that'll blow him away
56:00 might have been useful to tell cimo that essentially everything is legal (but possibly restricted) in vintage, including the power 9.
Time Vault in Vintage is one of the best thing you could be doing in specific decks, but it's still a slow way to win. Dredge and Mono White Initiative just kill you faster than you can get the combo on board (1 copy really means you have to search for it, and it is vulnerable to FOW).
It is a fine a card in vintage, but just as a way to end the game sometimes. There are other cards way more broken in the game itself. The One Ring just stops this combo and the deck that play the One Ring can basically loop it infinitely.
I haven't played with the new ban list, but the restriction of Urza's Saga means you can't get key to the city as easily out and the decks that played Time Vault have kinda disappeared from the meta. It's not played in Lurrus Saga decks, but it is still played in the Shops deck.
In vintage there are 4 big decks that fight each other and some other other smaller meta share decks. The big 4 are Dredge, Lurrus Saga, Mono W Initiative and Shops. Smaller decks are like Show and Tell with Atraxa and stuff like that.
Time vault was much better in vintage before the most recent banlist. Dredge is probably the best deck rn
Vintage player here: Time vault used to be among the best things to do in the format, but ever since urza's saga got restricted it's been taking a bit of a backseat. Notably, the combo used to get slotted into otherwise fair decks like UB luurus saga due to how easy it was to search out key, and now that saga can't be a 4 of time vault is basically only in Jewel shops and some paridoxical outcome builds
The day the ban on Channel was announced around 2012ish, my lgs had them in the bulk commons, 15 for $1, all editons aside from Alpha. I bought about 20, passed them around to friends just for fun, we all built an insane channel deck for kitchen table, and I sold my copies with my collection years back.
I'm glad to see the value increase on them, and I hope anyone I gave some to manage to turn them into more.
Yeah, destroy all land cards are horrible and not fun! I don't know why they exist.
Also you keep nailing these guesses on Mtg cards dude! I'm impressed!
Interesting that you've never heard about Eternal Weekends - big Vintage and Legacy tournaments happening every year in Japan, Europe and North America.
There are also plently of other competitive vintage tournaments happening all over the world.
Cimo's rant about land destruction was hilarious, since as other commenters have said, both Armageddon and Wrath of God were punish cards for greed/overextension. It's very much up for debate if that style of card is healthy design or if using that against basic resources is healthy, but hearing someone outside just go off about it is funny to me.
Edit: Ya, early MtG printed all sorts of jank for their early sets. Hindsight is 20/20, but they were really the first to do these things. Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Hearthstone, all of the card games afterwards and even MtG itself can learn from the mistakes from the early printings. They don't always do, and it's especially sad when Magic doesn't, but those initial sets is where we see the proof of 'ya, that was kindof dumb to put that in the game that way.".
I found this line: "Imagine, in a Commander game, Armageddon; pass."
Also, casting Armageddon in a random Commander pod is grounds for dragging someone over the table by their neck.
the raging river card reminded me so much of the yugioh anime, where every duel had some "weird" special conditions to them... and cimo nails the price, coincidence? dont think so :))) great video as always
A fun way of think about time walk is that in it's "worst" case, that is using all you mana on it, and passing. It is a free card, with no cost (since you gain the mana next turn). So it is a smaller deck.
The Collector’s Edition Timetwister which is technically not legal in anything (pretty much everyone will allow them in EDH) are around $800. I got mine years ago for $150ish.
These videos have been so great. I’m glad CGB has been able to find something outside of playing Standard Bo1 to keep both himself and us happy. Give me all the Cimo!
One of my favorite stories about Time Vault is that they've issued so much errata for it, at one point it was part of a two-card infinite with Flame Fusillade that didn't even care about the extra turns at all!
I played HS,yugi and magic a bit (Tournament wise) and one thing i was lovely befuddled of and started to love... where the Un-Sets. Show them to the others! It will blow their mind and it will be so much fun (so in the spirit of the Un-Sets) :P
2024 Vintage player here: Time Vault + Key combo is still one of the best things to be doing and is one of the most popular win conditions in the format. Typically decks will generate infinite turns and then win via construct beat down.
The funny thing is that for most of the early years of Magic, Armageddon really was just fine. Good counter spells and hand disruption kept it from wreaking havoc excessively.
4:30:30 We have a card called Shining Piecephilia! It's just so hard to pull off that effect that I can't tell you if it even shuffles the deck.
17:51 that noise was adorable!
Old School also influences the prices of these cards quite a bit. Especially ones that are reserved list and playable there. For example, Time Vault is only niche playability in Old School while being much more common in Vintage and Cube.
Yes Time Vault is still played in vintage, one of the best things you can do for sure. Keep in mind that every vintage deck is likely to have multiple degenrate combo kills. Tinker, Bolas' Citadel + Sensei's Top is another combo you'd likely see in the same deck unless you're playing against Lurrus.
CGB must show Cimo Lurrus and that cat's insanity
My favorite thing about Armageddon is not only did it get reprinted, but they also printed a card called Ravages of War, which is the same card type, colors, cost, and effect. It is word for word the same exact card, except now you can run twice as many Armageddon copies under a different name.
fun fact: the original minimal deck size was 40 cards, so you could have 4 copies of the power 9 + any wincon and just win on turn 1 with a loop of extra turns, draws and graveyard recursion that was basically deterministic
Moaaaar collabs, we love it
59:16 funnily enough, the current oracle text for Timetwister is only 14 words, exactly double Time Walk’s 7.
I defense of Raging River it does play way better than it reads. The idea is that you cut in half the possible defending creatures because if they left one side without creatures you can just attack that side and not be blocked - this does give you a lot of control on the attacking since it also allow you to not be blocked by a specific creature you want to avoid.
With that said, it is not worth the price tag
41:00 you can totally explain why it's fine. "Artifacts are really good."
Though it might spoil the rest of the video lol.
The thing about the first set other than being the first TCG is that they had no idea how popular magic would become, and expected people to have a limited amount of cards with which to build their decks and trade with other people, they didn't look at it with the context of having access to every card. In fact in the beginning there was no limit to how many copies of a card you can have in your deck
I love how he thinks we wont cast a demonic tutor on turn 1 and win on turn 2.
22:22 Actually I haven't seen this clip, but I think I know what happened. During the playtests, casting cost was written as total cost to play it, and then how much of that mana needs to be in a given color, whereas on printed cards it's written as generic plus colored costs. What this means is an Alpha Time Walk reads 1U, but a playtest Time Walk would read 2U. They're both 2 mana, one of which needs to be blue, but written differently.
you know it's good content when now I want to learn MTG even tho I only know YGO. Keep the collabs coming!
Should've been the Power 10 but people didn't realize Sol Ring's power at the time.
Colorless mana did a lot less back then, too. Dragon Engine, Obsianus Golem, and Juggernaut were kinda it for a while.
@@Pinfeldorf I double checked Alpha and I had no idea there were so many low cost cards with double or triple pips. I could totally see this being the case. Still, there are some decently statted fatties one could drop with it like Earth Elemental and Shivan Dragon.
We did realize it, Sol Ring was restricted for a reason.
@@bortmode but it wasn't good enough, was it?
I play vintage in 2024, and yes time vault is one of the best things to be doing. it’s much harder to find key now after the urza’s saga restriction, though
"Blue-eyes is the face of YGO as much as Black Lotus is to MTG."
You couldn't be more right, I used to buy magazines for these two games, and you guessed it: the YGO one was called "Dragon Blanc" (White Dragon) and the MTG one was called "Lotus Noir" (Black Lotus)!
They didnt reduce the cost if time walk, the og playtest cards showed mana as the total amount (2 in time walks case) and thenwhat colors your needed (a single blue) so the cost was shown as 2U, 2 mana 1 of which must be blue. Some people found it confusing so Richard changed it to be how we now know