You'll know if you are if ladies give you feedback that you are. If ladies like dancing with you, ask you to dance, than you know you on a good track 😉.
🎉 nice topic! Relaaaaax 😅🙏🏼👍👍👍 True…The world doesn't just revolve around you.. IMO at the moment a lot of people take each word personal. That is so exhausting 😓 not just in dancing 😊
As a leader I find it amazingly usefull to switch to following from time to time. It's fun and it makes me more aware of what works well in leading. I don't feel comfortable with sensual bachata as a follower, since it feels more feminine in nature than I allow myself to be, but salsa, traditional and modern bachata, and kizomba I enjoy alot. At the end it's just dancing and it should be fun. I look forward to the day we develop a dance vocabulary where you can signal the intent to switch roles mid dance. Like "Hey I want to lead now" and "Take it away" or "Not yet" 😅.
The great thing about gender roles in dancing is that they're rules of thumb, rather than hard rules. It seems to me that it's mostly the pros who are concerned with role reversal. And some people don't fit the mould, want to try doing things differently. More power to them. But the roles are there, and the vast majority of dancers like them the way they are. Men enjoy asking women to dance, figuring out on the fly how to match their moves to the music, and learning how to clearly communicate their ideas to their partners. Women enjoy being asked to dance, and being able to focus on styling, on looking good and feeling good, while their partner takes care of the trivial things, such as choreography and staying on beat. I generally don't mind/care how other people dance, as long as it doesn't interfere with my dancing. I find it useful to practise with other men in class. The moves make a lot more sense when I understand them from both the leader's and the follower's perspectives. Dancing as a follower at social events, however, is a firm no from me, with men or women. I've done martial arts far longer than I've been dancing, and if somebody surprised me with a dip, or I lost my balance, the wrong reflex might kick in, and I might embarrass myself, or hurt my partner. 🥔 for those who read to the end.
Recently one of our instructors referred to the dance partners as the driver and the steering wheel. That confused the heck out of us! The general concesses afterwards was " stick to the traditional leader and follower".
I'm not sure who is supposed to be the driver, and who the steering wheel, but neither possibility strikes me as particularly accurate. If I were to use a car analogy to describe dancing, I'd say the leader is the navigator, and the follower - the driver. The leader plans ahead and gives suggestions, the follower stays in the moment and decides how, or whether, to follow the suggestions.
I want to add that the gender roles changes being pushed is a direction reflection of what is happening in the outside world especially the Modern Dating ( my area of speciallity) I am creating something called the LaZuras MD map. We all deserve love and happiness, the world is to big and diverse for everyone to be one, if if we want it to be. The core of this is combination of acceptance ( what's you and what's not) tolerance ( living alongside ppl different) and knowledge ( knowing where or how to find your respective EQUALS) The LaZuras Map will provide a guide based on their reality of all life Status, Age , Experiences ,SMV practiced values not spoken ones and Reality what's actually working , that's why my RUclips stuff delayed.
If a guy ask me to dance i say you going to buy me a drink 1st 🍹 i joke , i joke Rasa I think its just respect and communication. I dont do the role swapping with guy or girl but that just me, i don't have a problem with them doing it next to me or in front of me. From the comments i think it is.like this for many. Ppl just don't like being pressured into doing something they don't want. Like you said its not personal.
I think it is quite immature to think someone is gay or straight for leading or following once in a while. But if I was to be totally honest, I am not comfortable as a man being led even by a woman, specifically in bachata. Salsa would probably be fine. Its simply that bachata following is a very feminine dance. In fact, when you see the pros do it, they intentionally strike feminine poses, partly in jest but partly because it is necessary. Obviously this doesn't mean I won't follow at all if only to improve my leading as so many advance leaders have done.
I do not do any of the dance styles you teach (Salsa or Bachata). I grew into dancing by balfolk myself. With that being said, I like being a follower and I also like to lead. Its like you get a whole new set of moves to experience and experiment with. What is also more common in Balfolk is that there is a dancing style where there is neither lead nor follower, so you both give input on what you do next. I can lead from the follower dance position, and can follow from the lead position. It just gives that much more freedom to express yourself. I never tied any of this stuff to my identity either. One remark/ disagreement I do have is about calling it leader/follower instead of man/women. In the specific situation of you dealing with beginner dancers and open balls at least. As an experienced dancer you know enough places and people, and have seen already that the word is interchangeable and does not matter. A beginner walking in, does NOT know that. They listen to what is being told, and the first impression matters. They will look confused if you say man/women all the time as a teacher and then some man asks to follow. The same kind of confusion you get when an experienced dancer shows musicality in their steps while a beginner is doing "the steps". Also there are still plenty of schools that do not accept women as leads and men as followers, at least in my area. The beginners should know if they landed in such a school or place, or if they are actually free to do what they want to.
I can see how the appropriate words can have impact especially at the beginning. I was at PKC and in one workshop the instructors insisted, insisted I kid you not that it should be called Instigator and Reciever ,I prefer Recievinator, but Receiver is what they suggest is the new way forward...gave a speech on it and everything. Will be interesting to see if ppl will start using this.
I used to have a communist-anarchist friend who, in a salsa class, firstly objected to the use of "men and women" because she believed such terms engendered social historical inequality of gender roles, and then objected to the use of "leaders and followers" because she didn't believe in such hierarchical structures. We must've wasted five minutes of class time arguing over use of language to satisfy her political leaning.
To a different dynamic to the chat while relevant to the the topic its not just role swapping ppl are judged on sexuallity.as this seems to be one of the themes in the video. Way ppl dress and and style, themselves. I heard comments from others,Thats why i believe many play it safe in the stlye sense, maninly men on this one. Also something never spoken about on SBK chats publicly, we have an exclusive 🥁📢 When you either reject gyal for the nookie Or Sometimes but more rare You dont make a.move and she on flirting pls hint mode max. I tell Rasa some unfiltered truth, but i dont think the chat is ready for 🤐
To expand I believe men feel they would be judged for grooming habits. Myself as example, I use to think that stuff was girly and gay, regrettably to my Shame 🔔shame 🔔shame on myself,.as I would judge other men for it too and so did my circle of friends to be fair. Now I do all the skincare routine and take care of body more, got into this collagen ting, they have a serum not cheap but I invest in that shit. I have been trying to use this L'Oréal mens face mask.for a year now, and although i don't do it yet, I would be down for pedicures and manicures and that whole.spa ting 💯 But Gaurentee i would be called Gay by some for.doing it, I still gonna do it but it is a reality in our society as you explore in this video.
Recently a gay couple showed up at our West Coast Swing class. They were both dressed in neon yellow and white, they chose the center of the room to stand in. It was definitely "entertaining" to watch it all unfold! Our female instructor did a fine job, and stuck with her basics. She used terms like change partners, men side of the room, lady side of the room, leader and follower, ladies wait for the man to lead, ladies do not start raising your hand let the man raise your hand, etc... honestly, they were like a big barrier in the center of the room! No one said anything derogatory to them, or mistreated them. Instead they were mostly avoided and kept to themselves. They haven't been back since.
So two people came to a class to learn to dance, and they were deliberately excluded? By the teacher? And to a degree where they felt unable to come back and dance again? :o
@@JonathanNewman-x8j They where not excluded at all. They chose to not change partners when given the opportunity. ( I failed to mention that the instructor gives the option to couples to not change partners, however, she recommends it) They seemed very "comfortable"-- hands all over each other, kissing, constant talking, disrupting the class, etc... which, in all my years no one has acted that way at a dance lesson. That's where they where avoided and left to themselves, nothing was said to them about it. Who knows why they haven't returned? Their choice.
@@chrisomalley1105 hmm. Your post says its was entertaining to watch. And that the teacher kept saying 'ladies wait for the man to lead' etc. And that they were avoided. That seems very excluding. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrote. But why shouldn't they be comfortable with each other, just like a straight couple could be? Kissing is inappropriate, but I've certainly seen straight couples behaving in a way that wouldn't be tolerated from a gay couple. And I have certainly seen a straight couple at a recent class kiss each other briefly each time their faces came together in a move. I can just imagine a gay couple trying to do that. I've also seen a lot of disruption and chatting from straight dancers without any kick back from the group as a whole (the teacher of course may intervene). As for choosing not to swap partners, I would have done the same. Being in a strange class and being a male follow is very intimidating, because you know in advance that you will get a reaction from at least some of the leads. And others will show you how uncomfortable they are. The dance scene is still sadly excluding to gay people. Bizarre really given the perception non-dancers have of it.
the gender-based roles start when the guy asks the girl to dance... A hand is revealed (where did that come from!), the man takes said hand and **leads** the way. I sometimes try to avoid the hand, and indicate the way using body-language, but the results are unpredictable. Even Rasa has issues asking the guys to dance *the whole evening*, the intensity of emotion was unmissable, yet that is precisely what the guys are doing. But guys cannot lose their masculinity! It will however be in ruins if we fancy her (!), she dances better and is in a position of authority... intimidated! So here I will disagree with this either/or, and make it more interchangeable and swap roles even during the dance. Oh no! One step at a time...
Hey Rasa love your videos
You'll know if you are if ladies give you feedback that you are. If ladies like dancing with you, ask you to dance, than you know you on a good track 😉.
Thank you Rasa❤
Welcome 😊
It’s difficult to change Salsa much because of the sheer beat of the music! I agree with your balanced approach! Nice video.
💗
🎉 nice topic! Relaaaaax 😅🙏🏼👍👍👍
True…The world doesn't just revolve around you.. IMO at the moment a lot of people take each word personal. That is so exhausting 😓 not just in dancing 😊
Absolutely 😉
As a leader I find it amazingly usefull to switch to following from time to time. It's fun and it makes me more aware of what works well in leading. I don't feel comfortable with sensual bachata as a follower, since it feels more feminine in nature than I allow myself to be, but salsa, traditional and modern bachata, and kizomba I enjoy alot. At the end it's just dancing and it should be fun. I look forward to the day we develop a dance vocabulary where you can signal the intent to switch roles mid dance. Like "Hey I want to lead now" and "Take it away" or "Not yet" 😅.
😁😁😁
The great thing about gender roles in dancing is that they're rules of thumb, rather than hard rules. It seems to me that it's mostly the pros who are concerned with role reversal. And some people don't fit the mould, want to try doing things differently. More power to them. But the roles are there, and the vast majority of dancers like them the way they are.
Men enjoy asking women to dance, figuring out on the fly how to match their moves to the music, and learning how to clearly communicate their ideas to their partners. Women enjoy being asked to dance, and being able to focus on styling, on looking good and feeling good, while their partner takes care of the trivial things, such as choreography and staying on beat.
I generally don't mind/care how other people dance, as long as it doesn't interfere with my dancing. I find it useful to practise with other men in class. The moves make a lot more sense when I understand them from both the leader's and the follower's perspectives. Dancing as a follower at social events, however, is a firm no from me, with men or women. I've done martial arts far longer than I've been dancing, and if somebody surprised me with a dip, or I lost my balance, the wrong reflex might kick in, and I might embarrass myself, or hurt my partner.
🥔 for those who read to the end.
❤️
Great topic. I agree that in class the students most obey the rules set by the instructors. At the dance floor you as a dancer have your choices.
😉😉
Recently one of our instructors referred to the dance partners as the driver and the steering wheel. That confused the heck out of us! The general concesses afterwards was " stick to the traditional leader and follower".
At least it wasn't the toreador and flag. Anyone for the Paso?
I'm not sure who is supposed to be the driver, and who the steering wheel, but neither possibility strikes me as particularly accurate. If I were to use a car analogy to describe dancing, I'd say the leader is the navigator, and the follower - the driver. The leader plans ahead and gives suggestions, the follower stays in the moment and decides how, or whether, to follow the suggestions.
😅😅😅
🙈🙈🙈
I have no car analogies 😅
I want to add that the gender roles changes being pushed is a direction reflection of what is happening in the outside world especially the Modern Dating ( my area of speciallity)
I am creating something called the LaZuras MD map. We all deserve love and happiness, the world is to big and diverse for everyone to be one, if if we want it to be.
The core of this is combination of acceptance ( what's you and what's not) tolerance ( living alongside ppl different) and knowledge ( knowing where or how to find your respective EQUALS)
The LaZuras Map will provide a guide based on their reality of all life Status, Age , Experiences ,SMV practiced values not spoken ones and Reality what's actually working , that's why my RUclips stuff delayed.
👍👍👍
I was triggered by the phrase "try not to be triggered". I agree with everything else.
😅 fair enough 😉
If a guy ask me to dance i say you going to buy me a drink 1st 🍹 i joke , i joke Rasa
I think its just respect and communication.
I dont do the role swapping with guy or girl but that just me, i don't have a problem with them doing it next to me or in front of me. From the comments i think it is.like this for many. Ppl just don't like being pressured into doing something they don't want. Like you said its not personal.
Exactly 💯
I think it is quite immature to think someone is gay or straight for leading or following once in a while. But if I was to be totally honest, I am not comfortable as a man being led even by a woman, specifically in bachata. Salsa would probably be fine. Its simply that bachata following is a very feminine dance. In fact, when you see the pros do it, they intentionally strike feminine poses, partly in jest but partly because it is necessary. Obviously this doesn't mean I won't follow at all if only to improve my leading as so many advance leaders have done.
That's absolutely fair enough 😊
I do not do any of the dance styles you teach (Salsa or Bachata). I grew into dancing by balfolk myself.
With that being said, I like being a follower and I also like to lead. Its like you get a whole new set of moves to experience and experiment with. What is also more common in Balfolk is that there is a dancing style where there is neither lead nor follower, so you both give input on what you do next. I can lead from the follower dance position, and can follow from the lead position. It just gives that much more freedom to express yourself.
I never tied any of this stuff to my identity either.
One remark/ disagreement I do have is about calling it leader/follower instead of man/women. In the specific situation of you dealing with beginner dancers and open balls at least.
As an experienced dancer you know enough places and people, and have seen already that the word is interchangeable and does not matter.
A beginner walking in, does NOT know that. They listen to what is being told, and the first impression matters. They will look confused if you say man/women all the time as a teacher and then some man asks to follow. The same kind of confusion you get when an experienced dancer shows musicality in their steps while a beginner is doing "the steps".
Also there are still plenty of schools that do not accept women as leads and men as followers, at least in my area. The beginners should know if they landed in such a school or place, or if they are actually free to do what they want to.
Great observation 👍
I can see how the appropriate words can have impact especially at the beginning.
I was at PKC and in one workshop the instructors insisted, insisted I kid you not that it should be called Instigator and Reciever ,I prefer Recievinator, but Receiver is what they suggest is the new way forward...gave a speech on it and everything. Will be interesting to see if ppl will start using this.
I used to have a communist-anarchist friend who, in a salsa class, firstly objected to the use of "men and women" because she believed such terms engendered social historical inequality of gender roles, and then objected to the use of "leaders and followers" because she didn't believe in such hierarchical structures. We must've wasted five minutes of class time arguing over use of language to satisfy her political leaning.
That would not happen in my class. If she wanted that discussion, she could have it with me after the class, not during!!!!
To a different dynamic to the chat while relevant to the the topic its not just role swapping ppl are judged on sexuallity.as this seems to be one of the themes in the video.
Way ppl dress and and style, themselves. I heard comments from others,Thats why i believe many play it safe in the stlye sense, maninly men on this one.
Also something never spoken about on SBK chats publicly, we have an exclusive 🥁📢
When you either reject gyal for the nookie
Or
Sometimes but more rare You dont make a.move and she on flirting pls hint mode max.
I tell Rasa some unfiltered truth, but i dont think the chat is ready for 🤐
To expand I believe men feel they would be judged for grooming habits.
Myself as example, I use to think that stuff was girly and gay, regrettably to my Shame 🔔shame 🔔shame on myself,.as I would judge other men for it too and so did my circle of friends to be fair.
Now I do all the skincare routine and take care of body more, got into this collagen ting, they have a serum not cheap but I invest in that shit. I have been trying to use this L'Oréal mens face mask.for a year now, and although i don't do it yet, I would be down for pedicures and manicures and that whole.spa ting 💯
But Gaurentee i would be called Gay by some for.doing it, I still gonna do it but it is a reality in our society as you explore in this video.
@@gogokizomba6903 agree. And the fact that many men are so sensitive to being seen this way is a sign of homophobia in society sadly.
Recently a gay couple showed up at our West Coast Swing class. They were both dressed in neon yellow and white, they chose the center of the room to stand in. It was definitely "entertaining" to watch it all unfold! Our female instructor did a fine job, and stuck with her basics. She used terms like change partners, men side of the room, lady side of the room, leader and follower, ladies wait for the man to lead, ladies do not start raising your hand let the man raise your hand, etc... honestly, they were like a big barrier in the center of the room! No one said anything derogatory to them, or mistreated them. Instead they were mostly avoided and kept to themselves. They haven't been back since.
So two people came to a class to learn to dance, and they were deliberately excluded? By the teacher? And to a degree where they felt unable to come back and dance again? :o
@@JonathanNewman-x8j They where not excluded at all. They chose to not change partners when given the opportunity. ( I failed to mention that the instructor gives the option to couples to not change partners, however, she recommends it) They seemed very "comfortable"-- hands all over each other, kissing, constant talking, disrupting the class, etc... which, in all my years no one has acted that way at a dance lesson. That's where they where avoided and left to themselves, nothing was said to them about it. Who knows why they haven't returned? Their choice.
@@chrisomalley1105 hmm. Your post says its was entertaining to watch. And that the teacher kept saying 'ladies wait for the man to lead' etc. And that they were avoided. That seems very excluding. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrote. But why shouldn't they be comfortable with each other, just like a straight couple could be? Kissing is inappropriate, but I've certainly seen straight couples behaving in a way that wouldn't be tolerated from a gay couple. And I have certainly seen a straight couple at a recent class kiss each other briefly each time their faces came together in a move. I can just imagine a gay couple trying to do that. I've also seen a lot of disruption and chatting from straight dancers without any kick back from the group as a whole (the teacher of course may intervene).
As for choosing not to swap partners, I would have done the same. Being in a strange class and being a male follow is very intimidating, because you know in advance that you will get a reaction from at least some of the leads. And others will show you how uncomfortable they are. The dance scene is still sadly excluding to gay people. Bizarre really given the perception non-dancers have of it.
the gender-based roles start when the guy asks the girl to dance...
A hand is revealed (where did that come from!), the man takes said hand and **leads** the way.
I sometimes try to avoid the hand, and indicate the way using body-language, but the results are unpredictable.
Even Rasa has issues asking the guys to dance *the whole evening*, the intensity of emotion was unmissable, yet that is precisely what the guys are doing. But guys cannot lose their masculinity! It will however be in ruins if we fancy her (!), she dances better and is in a position of authority... intimidated!
So here I will disagree with this either/or, and make it more interchangeable and swap roles even during the dance. Oh no!
One step at a time...