Matt, I couldn't agree more! While battling with low frequencies in my budget room/gear I'm finding that I go right back to blocking the ports and changing the setting in my SVS PB1000 Pro sub woofer. I keep wanting heavy slam during movies, but the bass just gets sloppy. It also sucks that my MLP is also in a room mode of low bass and I can't do much a about the position because of the room size and Atmos speaker layout. I've tried dual dual subs, but I don't have matching pair and can't afford to get another SVS. I wish I could afford to hire you to come over; even if it's just to listen to my mess and tell me how bad it really is. I'm sure it sucks! Anyway, thanks a million for all you do for us out here and I hope that you have fantastic day, Kevin
Happy Thanksgiving Matt, A few follow up questions please: What problems are inherent to passive radiators? In the GSG Behind The Screen (BTS) 21 inch subwoofer designs the port can be aimed to the side to avoid rippling the screen; Is there a audible reduction in port noise because the port is aimed away from the listener? If a ported sub is tuned at 16Hz and I roll it off above that (maybe 19Hz); is that an effective way of reducing the port issues below audible levels? Thanks very much!
Aiming the port at the floor or wall can reduce the audible onset of port chuffing or other port noise issues. Passive radiators are not as linear as ports. They are more lossy. Think of a PR and a Port as a variation on the same thing. It’s a mass that resonates at a fixed frequency. But imagine they a port is a mass that moves freely. It has no damping or restrictions of its movement. The PR has attached that mass to a suspension and that suspension has losses. It doesn’t allow the free movement of the mass. And so the performance is worse. In addition, the mass and suspension of a PR introduce an additional 5th order topology due to this Fs of the PR. So it also has a steeper rolloff. I should say. There are ways to design ported subwoofers that achieve performance that is a balance between a sealed and ported design. You get some benefits from the port output and excursion control. You also get maximally flat group delay through the passband.
I’ve had good success with sealed. The smaller air volume and careful placement for room boundary gain means tight and articulate bass. The SB Audience 15OB350 15” woofer works wonderfully in a 70L sealed even though it’s an open baffle woofer. It’s not the most dynamic 15” model but the size factor has plenty of headroom compared to a 70L bass reflex using a smaller driver. Enclosure volume almost halves when going sealed.
Excellent feedback Matt. Each LCR has a pair of B&C 10” 10NW76 woofers with 800w continuous power handling but relatively high Fs. They are capable of massive output at 45Hz and are integrated beautifully at 80Hz while ported via the Trinnov’s setup. The sealed Fb is about 80Hz. If I experiment going the sealed route I’ll use the active speaker approach in the Trinnov. Thanks for covering so much ground in such a succinct video response!
It would of been nice to hear your opinion on open baffle speakers mixed with sealed subs, maybe in another video, anyway thanks for the informative video.
Ascendo and Meyer Sound have all ported main speakers, even the Black Swan and the Bluehorn (big enough) are ported and I am sure they know what they are doing. What might be the way and the reason they are doing that ?
It’s a different set of trade offs. They use a driver that couldn’t hit the requisite output at 80hz without the port. I’ve also setup both mentioned systems and there is some time domain problems from the ports. But given the intended use, the tradeoff is acceptable. Distorting and compressing output would be worse. In the pro audio sphere the mindset is different and not everything they believe is correct. For example the pro approach to bass management is to have a dedicated bass management speaker for each channel or channel group. That means the LCRs each get their own bass management speaker. LFE is sent to a separate dedicated speaker. This really is nonsensical in small rooms. Meyer does it. But it is wrong. It comes from the pro cinema world that was in such large rooms that room modes were not a concern. In the small rooms we work in, it makes for more sense to follow the residential standard that THX and Dolby adopted. This mixes the LFE and bass management channels together. Further, we now use multiple subs all sent the same rendered channel in a strategic way to minimize modal problems. So just because a great company does it doesn’t always mean it’s optimal. Often it’s addressing a different problem. Nothing is perfect so you have to pick your battles. Strike a good balance. And sometimes they do it because they don’t know better. Meaning what they do isn’t correct. They are just ill informed. This particular “battle” is one that the residential pros have been fighting with the commercial pros for a while. But the science and physics is on our side.
Hey Matthew, firstly, thanks for the awesome content! Question, when talking about subwoofer integration, notwithstanding the obvious concerns about sub placement, room modes etc. Would you agree that SBIR for the mains, should be top of the list for best crossover point(s)? 2. Even and especially when running mains full range (LFE + Main). I've dabbled (to say the least) and although there is an appreciable, audible difference / improvement at lower listening levels, I find (LFE+ Main) the speakers simply can't manage reference clean output unless crossed over.
You are welcome to your preferences. That isn’t my preference and certainly not a win for me. I prefer to avoid excessive port chuffing, high group delay, and other inharmonic distortions that ports all produce eventually, always well below the actual SPL limit of the subwoofer.
I prefer the attitude of John Hunter at Rel. Their crossover controls are unmarked. Stops you setting the crossover where you think it should be, or where the science suggests it should be. Forces you to set the crossover by ear. Admittedly, it did take me a very long time of trial and error before I knew I’d got it right. But when that happened, it was unmistakable!
You are welcome to use whatever approach you prefer. I don’t happen to agree that blindly setting them based on faulty listening tests would yield the best results. I’ve certainly done this plenty of times and often measuring it will show that it had numerous problems that would be hard to hear, identify, and fix.
If it’s “hard to hear”, is it then of any real concern? I’m not criticising your methodology, just stating what works for me on a more basic level. I am only a 2 channel man, so perhaps don’t face some of the complexities of a multi channel arrangement.
@@howardskeivys4184you're leaving a lot on the table to be desired. Dialing in by ear with music is never fruitful for subs. Your music doesn't play the proper spectrum of bass frequencies simultaneously for you to get polarity, crossover, phase shift and gain, set correctly. Use a calibrated mic, periodic pink noise, and the RTA and you'll get it bang on in no time. I was like you once and used my ears. There was always something seemed "off". Then I got a calibrated mic and I was way off. Then I had to learn how to use that calibrated mic to my advantage to make set up a lot easier.
I’m pleased to learn that the methodology you choose to adopt to maximise the integration of your subs achieves the results you’re aiming for. I believe that I’ve achieved that sane goal following the directions of the manufacturer of my subs. Indeed, when I purchased my last sub, 1 of the manufacturer’s technicians was kind enough to deliver and install it for me. Utilising the exact methods that I’d used. Would he not have used a calibrated Mike if he thought those results would produce better results for his companies products? Wouldn’t he want any of my family friends or colleagues to get the best impression possible when listening to his subs?
If your speakers play lower, say to 40 Hz, ported or not if having them play that low along with your subs makes a difference worth having in bass response doesn't that mean your subs aren't capable of doing it on their own? If you're in this situation isn't it best to add subs as you conclude anyway as even if you can achieve the same results with your existing speakers down to 40 Hz surely that means you still have problems below 40 Hz?
It’s more than that. Just because a speaker has a response to 40hz doesn’t mean it will play loudly. It also doesn’t mean the speakers are in a good position for smooth bass. If you want clean smooth bass, especially in multiple seats, 2+ separate subs in strategic locations is generally best.
@PoesAcoustics aye. I think an interesting question is what happens when you use Dirac ART. Sealed speakers Vs ported speakers Vs using smaller subs but having one under every bed layer speaker.
Matt, I couldn't agree more! While battling with low frequencies in my budget room/gear I'm finding that I go right back to blocking the ports and changing the setting in my SVS PB1000 Pro sub woofer. I keep wanting heavy slam during movies, but the bass just gets sloppy. It also sucks that my MLP is also in a room mode of low bass and I can't do much a about the position because of the room size and Atmos speaker layout. I've tried dual dual subs, but I don't have matching pair and can't afford to get another SVS. I wish I could afford to hire you to come over; even if it's just to listen to my mess and tell me how bad it really is. I'm sure it sucks!
Anyway, thanks a million for all you do for us out here and I hope that you have fantastic day, Kevin
Thanks 4 Giving us your knowledge😁!
Thanks for watching!
Happy Thanksgiving Matt,
A few follow up questions please:
What problems are inherent to passive radiators?
In the GSG Behind The Screen (BTS) 21 inch subwoofer designs the port can be aimed to the side to avoid rippling the screen; Is there a audible reduction in port noise because the port is aimed away from the listener?
If a ported sub is tuned at 16Hz and I roll it off above that (maybe 19Hz); is that an effective way of reducing the port issues below audible levels?
Thanks very much!
Aiming the port at the floor or wall can reduce the audible onset of port chuffing or other port noise issues.
Passive radiators are not as linear as ports. They are more lossy. Think of a PR and a Port as a variation on the same thing. It’s a mass that resonates at a fixed frequency. But imagine they a port is a mass that moves freely. It has no damping or restrictions of its movement. The PR has attached that mass to a suspension and that suspension has losses. It doesn’t allow the free movement of the mass. And so the performance is worse. In addition, the mass and suspension of a PR introduce an additional 5th order topology due to this Fs of the PR. So it also has a steeper rolloff.
I should say. There are ways to design ported subwoofers that achieve performance that is a balance between a sealed and ported design. You get some benefits from the port output and excursion control. You also get maximally flat group delay through the passband.
I’ve had good success with sealed. The smaller air volume and careful placement for room boundary gain means tight and articulate bass. The SB Audience 15OB350 15” woofer works wonderfully in a 70L sealed even though it’s an open baffle woofer. It’s not the most dynamic 15” model but the size factor has plenty of headroom compared to a 70L bass reflex using a smaller driver. Enclosure volume almost halves when going sealed.
Excellent feedback Matt. Each LCR has a pair of B&C 10” 10NW76 woofers with 800w continuous power handling but relatively high Fs. They are capable of massive output at 45Hz and are integrated beautifully at 80Hz while ported via the Trinnov’s setup. The sealed Fb is about 80Hz. If I experiment going the sealed route I’ll use the active speaker approach in the Trinnov. Thanks for covering so much ground in such a succinct video response!
Thanks Matt, very informative as always
You’re welcome.
It would of been nice to hear your opinion on open baffle speakers mixed with sealed subs, maybe in another video, anyway thanks for the informative video.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!
The Trick is to stack your subwoofers to get the best performance - in any shape of room :)
Subbed. Thanks.
Ascendo and Meyer Sound have all ported main speakers, even the Black Swan and the Bluehorn (big enough) are ported and I am sure they know what they are doing. What might be the way and the reason they are doing that ?
It’s a different set of trade offs. They use a driver that couldn’t hit the requisite output at 80hz without the port.
I’ve also setup both mentioned systems and there is some time domain problems from the ports. But given the intended use, the tradeoff is acceptable. Distorting and compressing output would be worse.
In the pro audio sphere the mindset is different and not everything they believe is correct.
For example the pro approach to bass management is to have a dedicated bass management speaker for each channel or channel group. That means the LCRs each get their own bass management speaker. LFE is sent to a separate dedicated speaker. This really is nonsensical in small rooms. Meyer does it. But it is wrong. It comes from the pro cinema world that was in such large rooms that room modes were not a concern. In the small rooms we work in, it makes for more sense to follow the residential standard that THX and Dolby adopted. This mixes the LFE and bass management channels together. Further, we now use multiple subs all sent the same rendered channel in a strategic way to minimize modal problems.
So just because a great company does it doesn’t always mean it’s optimal. Often it’s addressing a different problem. Nothing is perfect so you have to pick your battles. Strike a good balance. And sometimes they do it because they don’t know better. Meaning what they do isn’t correct. They are just ill informed. This particular “battle” is one that the residential pros have been fighting with the commercial pros for a while. But the science and physics is on our side.
Hey Matthew, firstly, thanks for the awesome content!
Question, when talking about subwoofer integration, notwithstanding the obvious concerns about sub placement, room modes etc.
Would you agree that SBIR for the mains, should be top of the list for best crossover point(s)? 2. Even and especially when running mains full range (LFE + Main).
I've dabbled (to say the least) and although there is an appreciable, audible difference / improvement at lower listening levels, I find (LFE+ Main) the speakers simply can't manage reference clean output unless crossed over.
Yes and your conclusions make sense.
Ported subwoofers FOR THE WIN! 🙌🏼❤️❤️
You are welcome to your preferences. That isn’t my preference and certainly not a win for me. I prefer to avoid excessive port chuffing, high group delay, and other inharmonic distortions that ports all produce eventually, always well below the actual SPL limit of the subwoofer.
I prefer the attitude of John Hunter at Rel. Their crossover controls are unmarked. Stops you setting the crossover where you think it should be, or where the science suggests it should be. Forces you to set the crossover by ear. Admittedly, it did take me a very long time of trial and error before I knew I’d got it right. But when that happened, it was unmistakable!
You are welcome to use whatever approach you prefer. I don’t happen to agree that blindly setting them based on faulty listening tests would yield the best results. I’ve certainly done this plenty of times and often measuring it will show that it had numerous problems that would be hard to hear, identify, and fix.
If it’s “hard to hear”, is it then of any real concern? I’m not criticising your methodology, just stating what works for me on a more basic level. I am only a 2 channel man, so perhaps don’t face some of the complexities of a multi channel arrangement.
@@howardskeivys4184you're leaving a lot on the table to be desired. Dialing in by ear with music is never fruitful for subs. Your music doesn't play the proper spectrum of bass frequencies simultaneously for you to get polarity, crossover, phase shift and gain, set correctly. Use a calibrated mic, periodic pink noise, and the RTA and you'll get it bang on in no time. I was like you once and used my ears. There was always something seemed "off". Then I got a calibrated mic and I was way off. Then I had to learn how to use that calibrated mic to my advantage to make set up a lot easier.
I’m pleased to learn that the methodology you choose to adopt to maximise the integration of your subs achieves the results you’re aiming for. I believe that I’ve achieved that sane goal following the directions of the manufacturer of my subs. Indeed, when I purchased my last sub, 1 of the manufacturer’s technicians was kind enough to deliver and install it for me. Utilising the exact methods that I’d used. Would he not have used a calibrated Mike if he thought those results would produce better results for his companies products? Wouldn’t he want any of my family friends or colleagues to get the best impression possible when listening to his subs?
@@howardskeivys4184 ignorance is bliss. I was there not too long ago. Enjoy. 🤘
If your speakers play lower, say to 40 Hz, ported or not if having them play that low along with your subs makes a difference worth having in bass response doesn't that mean your subs aren't capable of doing it on their own?
If you're in this situation isn't it best to add subs as you conclude anyway as even if you can achieve the same results with your existing speakers down to 40 Hz surely that means you still have problems below 40 Hz?
It’s more than that. Just because a speaker has a response to 40hz doesn’t mean it will play loudly. It also doesn’t mean the speakers are in a good position for smooth bass. If you want clean smooth bass, especially in multiple seats, 2+ separate subs in strategic locations is generally best.
@PoesAcoustics aye. I think an interesting question is what happens when you use Dirac ART. Sealed speakers Vs ported speakers Vs using smaller subs but having one under every bed layer speaker.