Another great video answer. I always appreciate your professional and educational way of conversing. You break things down in an easy to understand way. That's not something everyone can do. Therefore, thank you for your excellent work & continued efforts! ~ Neil
I have a high-performance 5.2.4 setup within a small 13 x 11.5 ft dampening down room, which consists of an Arcam AVR20 & matching power amps that are driving some Sonus Faber speakers. And I would just say when it comes to reducing noise, one of the most unlikely but most rewarding upgrades I've made to date was choosing to go with shielded cables. Going from what I experienced, I would estimate 80% of background noise can be gone with entry-level shielded cables. It's getting rid of the last 20%, which is where the big bucks come in.
Thanks for these videos. It's a priceless service for folks like myself who can't afford professional calibration. I would like to know what you think about Onkyo receivers. TX-RZ30, TX-RZ50, TX-RZ70. Especially the TX-RZ50 because that's what I have.
They're good, but their issue is less subwoofer channels. The Denon X3800h has gone on sale as low as $920 and has 7.4.4 Preouts, Dirac Live Bass Control upgrade support. The RZ50 has been as low as $750, but only does 7.1.4 and still could use DLBC but it's less worth it for a single sub. The RZ50 has cleaner and stronger Preamp and Amp power, but worse Amp SINAD when compared to the X3800h. If you're not using the internal amps and using a MiniDSP for additional subs, the RZ50 is a good AVR. For me I'd step up to the X3800h for the 4 sub channels.
@andrewskaterrr when I went to upgrade last year I was looking at TX-RZ50, Pioneer vsx-lx505 & Denon 3800. I probably would have went with Denon but they charge way too much just to get dirac in the first place on top of the avr price. The other 2 have dirac included with possibility to upgrade later. As for subs, while I'd like more than 1, it's not in my budget & I don't have space for 2 let alone 4.😁 And I've seen the prices all of them are at now. I probably could have waited to upgrade but I was wanting to upgrade for years and finally could do so. My avr was from 2009. The Pioneer VSX-1019AH. Kinda outdated 😄
I too own a Marantz cinema 30 and was thinking about getting a external amplifier i just wasn't sure if it would be worth it i have svs ultra bookshelf and svs ultra surrounds and svs ultra center plus 4 elevation svs speakers and am doing 7.1.4 and I sit 9 feet away from the 3 mains but how is your experience with adding separates did it make a big difference and if so in what if you can let me know it would be much appreciated
@@ddcrocky3831I have the cinema 40 and added an audiocontrol pantages g4 to power my bed layer speakers. I was using Klipsch 8000f, 504c and 600m at the time and the first thing I noticed was more detail in sound especially background and off screen sound, a crisper more alive sound as well. And the Marantz receivers you can turn off individual internal amps so the receiver can focus on processing the sound. I now have Perlisten r7t and r5c for my LCRs and my overall soundstage sounds wonderful. Hope that helps….
The hiss is largely depended on the sensitivity of the speakers right? I think you need to have very sensitive speakers to hear the hiss. I have an 86dB speaker sensitivity and could never hear a hiss with a mid level avr even if I put my ear next to the tweeter.
I find that the different brands have materially different house sounds, some of which I don’t enjoy. I think that choice is an important starting point, even though the sound of the entire “system” will be affected by various other factors as well.
Thanks for answering my question. To boil it down, outside of edge cases, the very worst and the very best, the answer is no? For instance the difference between a Marantz Cinema 50 and an AV10 would be tough for most of us to distinguish, ALL other things being equal. My semi-dedicated theatre is nowhere near as quiet as yours. Although I must say if I heard a hiss out of a speaker and could pin it down to a specific piece of equipment, it would be going back. Thanks again and I hope you’re enjoying the holidays. 😊
In my experience, different amps can sound extremely different if you have good enough speakers, some amps really sound very harsh on top end, while others are more mellow, I don't know how else to describe it... More cheaper amp, more difference between them. While in the expensive ones, the differences start to be not that big.
@lazymass thanks for the response. I’m really asking about the processors and preamp stages and how technology like Dirac would “equalize” the result. For example the Denon 3800 on up all share the same processor, the ADSP-20593, their DACs differ and that is measurable. However is it audible? So if you hooked up a 3800 and an A1H to the same amps and the same speakers in the same room, and ran DLBC on both could you hear a difference? Accepting of course that Dirac will spit out a different solution each time and mic placement might be slightly different. Bottom line, when the rubber hits the road, what do you get for your extra $6500? EDIT: Amplifiers aside and if both processors fit your needs - 7.4.4 or fewer speakers.
@@Kevince52 I can hear the difference on expensive speakers (Like Adam Audio S3V) pretty clearly, better DACs give more resolution to the music, adding more stage to the music, better separation of the sounds, the high end is much more enjoyable. But when running it on cheaper speakers (like Dali Ikon 2), the differences become much less noticeable, since the speakers itself cant actually play that added detail/less distortion from the DAC very well - when running it on old Pilot ST550 (year 1990), there is basically no difference at all. So I guess it all goes to what setup you are running and what are all the links in it. Every link adds its own distortion to the sound, possibly masking the differences between DACs output or preamp output
Switching from a pretty decent AVR (Marantz 6013/4) to a 7706 and dedicated amps was a noticeable improvement. It was bigger than when I switched from a budget Onkyo to the Marantz although that was very noticable. Im sure there's a diminishing return that in pretty close to getting to. Swapping prepro and amps this year to accommodate bi amping LCRs and adding 2 more surrounds. My guess is that'll a about do it for me unless new tech comes out.
I had recently done a system where I switched a Marantz AV10 for a Trinnov Alt32. In my opinion, the Trinnov didn’t sound better inherently. It was substantially more flexible and the final system sounded better. But that was due to the tools I had to tune it. It wasn’t like the processor had any lower distortion or noise. They are basically on par with each other. Same with bandwidth. I actually did a little quick comparison where I tried listening to both in an uncalibrated format as a DAC preamp. I was curious what I might hear. I don’t think I could hear a difference and I doubt anyone else could.
Another excellent and informative video! I really like your realistic approach to considerations of budget. For sure, everything is a compromise! Although I’m sure you have some clients that have a very large budget, most of us do not. I would be interested to hear what your go to processor is below the price of the Marantz AV 10 but one that still has DIRAC LIVE? At $7000 it still seems quite expensive to me. I really appreciate you sharing your professional insights to the guys like me that really like this hobby but find it confusing and difficult to implement! Merry Christmas! Tony. 😊😁🇺🇸
I choose processors based on DACs even though the implementation matters more than the type. I have an HTP-1 because it has AKM 4493 DACs and Dirac. Best value in the market at $4K in my opinion. And of course, a well-treated dedicated room is essential.
In the world of smartphones and apps I find that a simple app can transform the sound of my system in the same way that a physical equalizer, preamp, receiver would in the “old days”. So here’s my question, are apps making physical components obsolete? I have an app on my phone that adds incredible low frequency boost and it completely/amazingly transforms how my system sounds. It suddenly sounds like I added a high in subwoofer and all because a simple app. I think the smartphone can replace a lot of physical components that we once used in the past for sound enhancement.
really great question. more than anything the placement of sounds in a 3d mesh. (atmos) has big improvements with things like 360 spacial sound mapping (sony on the low end and trinnov on the high end) i really feel like things like tonality and performance were aced as far back as my anthem mrx 700 which doesnt image like the best implementations going around now but its so good i havent upgraded my home theatre
Good explanation! Another factor is speaker sensetivity right? A more sensetive speaker will reveal all the cheap dac and noise floor. Btw any benefit to long term Sony ES review ?
I have Klipsch 8000F II, they sound far better on the Yamaha RX-V6A over the RX-A8A which is 5 times the price. The higher end amp makes the Klipsch speakers sound harsh.
A better receiver is all about proper calibration. A better calibration is all about room acoustics and proper placement of speakers and bass-systems/subwoofers. Calibration technique when it comes to proper mic placement can make any receiver sound bad. Even Audioholics latest instruction video of "How to Do Perfect Measurements" is not done properly. Better sound rely on to many factors and price is the least important 🤝
I can say that changing pre amplifier in an av system can make significant differences. Unfortunately the pre amplifier set up in a lot of AV receivers and processors are very poor and very compromised
Has anyone considered or accomplished modifying an avr to send spdif digital out to an external dac and pre-amp and using the avr for atmos processing only. I am considering this with a Denon x3600 that I use with amps manually disabled.
@@Hirnlego999 that why I use it. With the amps disabled even better. But the opamps are good but not excellent. Want to use the digital in of a technics g700m2
@@TrueStereo- Well, I believe the amp section of the 3600 should be fully transparent. Probably the only thing I would've done is to use a better cheaper DAC for 2 channel audio, something like SMSL D6S
it's almost a good thing that I am perpetually broke. Wanting better gear and room treatments is all I can do. So, the money I save from not buying gear seems like a win. I tell my friends I have "no compromises" HT. Can't afford anything, so no compromises made - right? hahaha! Just keeping the expectations of myself inline with reality. Someday, I'll make a close model of a Trinnov processor to drop my dumpster AVR in and I'll look like the deep pocket big boys in Facebook posts. OH! Some Blue Light Meters for good measure. LOL.
Its very hard to tell the difference between AVR and High end processors. Get a good AVR with Preamp outputs and great amplifiers that match your speakers and call it the day. Noise ? I disagree you could hear that, unless you have a problem with connection.
I’ve heard hiss on quite a few systems. Not sure how you can disagree with that. Maybe your spaces are much noisier. Otherwise sure the high end receivers do sound a lot like the high end processors. They all measure quite low. But receivers typically have low preamp voltage output which leads to worse noise performance and all receivers have more basic setup capabilities than the best processors (like Storm and Trinnov). Often the reason, when budget allows, to use these better processors is the setup flexibility. Not the noise or distortion.
I have that same pioneer and I dont hear the hiss , maybe my ear is not that good or my Martin Logan speakers don’t translate it?My room is terrible in regard to being a good listening environment.What can I look for in measuring?
The ML maybe have low enough sensitivity or your listening area has a higher noise floor. If you can't hear it, maybe it doesn't matter. You may hear it more by putting your ear next to the speaker :)
The room is the most important for the sound. But Sony cheap receiver are really perform well. in this time we leaving in, its no correlation between the price and quality. See to Topping dac . Smash everything
So many people out there say "there is no difference in receivers and processors" yet our ears tell a very different story. I always say there are so many factors involved that its nearly impossible to tell whats making the difference and it could be the receiver or processor and a dozen other things as well.
What is the definition of a "better" Receiver.? And, what is meant by "sound better" ? I would never buy a Receiver in the first place. I can achieve a three dimensional sound stage just by using my two front stereo speakers with cross-talk cancellation where the room and the speakers "disappear". I use a separate tube Phono Stage. A tube line level stereo Preamplifier. and a 200 watt per channel Rotel Power Amplifier. Do you know, the more speakers you put in your room, the worse is the sound. ?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
9:58 Trying to absorb Matt's take on things, but also, the cat.
Another great video answer. I always appreciate your professional and educational way of conversing. You break things down in an easy to understand way. That's not something everyone can do. Therefore, thank you for your excellent work & continued efforts! ~ Neil
You're very welcome Neil! I appreciate you taking the time to watch.
The mobile absorber in the back.. "10m 10s Wait what.. are you filming this?"
And then happily continues licking the backside lol
As you stated the main determining factor is the wife. Now I understand quiet…it’s what my wife is when a buy another piece of gear.
I have a high-performance 5.2.4 setup within a small 13 x 11.5 ft dampening down room, which consists of an Arcam AVR20 & matching power amps that are driving some Sonus Faber speakers. And I would just say when it comes to reducing noise, one of the most unlikely but most rewarding upgrades I've made to date was choosing to go with shielded cables. Going from what I experienced, I would estimate 80% of background noise can be gone with entry-level shielded cables. It's getting rid of the last 20%, which is where the big bucks come in.
Thank you for addressing these fundamental issues. Your experience is invaluable.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for everything and Merry Christmas!
Thanks, Merry Christmas to you as well!
An absolutely great video.
Thanks! I appreciate you watching.
even the cat was like enough about the 50k microphones, he gets up and goes to work on something more interesting
Thanks for these videos. It's a priceless service for folks like myself who can't afford professional calibration. I would like to know what you think about Onkyo receivers. TX-RZ30, TX-RZ50, TX-RZ70. Especially the TX-RZ50 because that's what I have.
They're good, but their issue is less subwoofer channels. The Denon X3800h has gone on sale as low as $920 and has 7.4.4 Preouts, Dirac Live Bass Control upgrade support. The RZ50 has been as low as $750, but only does 7.1.4 and still could use DLBC but it's less worth it for a single sub. The RZ50 has cleaner and stronger Preamp and Amp power, but worse Amp SINAD when compared to the X3800h. If you're not using the internal amps and using a MiniDSP for additional subs, the RZ50 is a good AVR. For me I'd step up to the X3800h for the 4 sub channels.
@andrewskaterrr when I went to upgrade last year I was looking at TX-RZ50, Pioneer vsx-lx505 & Denon 3800. I probably would have went with Denon but they charge way too much just to get dirac in the first place on top of the avr price. The other 2 have dirac included with possibility to upgrade later. As for subs, while I'd like more than 1, it's not in my budget & I don't have space for 2 let alone 4.😁 And I've seen the prices all of them are at now. I probably could have waited to upgrade but I was wanting to upgrade for years and finally could do so. My avr was from 2009. The Pioneer VSX-1019AH. Kinda outdated 😄
hey, lets keep our voices down, kitty is sleeping back there.
Great video . I looked at AV10 and found Cinema 30 worked better for my budget using preamp out. Good to hear AV10 is a practical option for some.
I too own a Marantz cinema 30 and was thinking about getting a external amplifier i just wasn't sure if it would be worth it i have svs ultra bookshelf and svs ultra surrounds and svs ultra center plus 4 elevation svs speakers and am doing 7.1.4 and I sit 9 feet away from the 3 mains but how is your experience with adding separates did it make a big difference and if so in what if you can let me know it would be much appreciated
@@ddcrocky3831I have the cinema 40 and added an audiocontrol pantages g4 to power my bed layer speakers. I was using Klipsch 8000f, 504c and 600m at the time and the first thing I noticed was more detail in sound especially background and off screen sound, a crisper more alive sound as well. And the Marantz receivers you can turn off individual internal amps so the receiver can focus on processing the sound. I now have Perlisten r7t and r5c for my LCRs and my overall soundstage sounds wonderful. Hope that helps….
The hiss is largely depended on the sensitivity of the speakers right? I think you need to have very sensitive speakers to hear the hiss. I have an 86dB speaker sensitivity and could never hear a hiss with a mid level avr even if I put my ear next to the tweeter.
I find that the different brands have materially different house sounds, some of which I don’t enjoy. I think that choice is an important starting point, even though the sound of the entire “system” will be affected by various other factors as well.
Thanks for answering my question. To boil it down, outside of edge cases, the very worst and the very best, the answer is no? For instance the difference between a Marantz Cinema 50 and an AV10 would be tough for most of us to distinguish, ALL other things being equal. My semi-dedicated theatre is nowhere near as quiet as yours. Although I must say if I heard a hiss out of a speaker and could pin it down to a specific piece of equipment, it would be going back. Thanks again and I hope you’re enjoying the holidays. 😊
In my experience, different amps can sound extremely different if you have good enough speakers, some amps really sound very harsh on top end, while others are more mellow, I don't know how else to describe it... More cheaper amp, more difference between them. While in the expensive ones, the differences start to be not that big.
@lazymass thanks for the response. I’m really asking about the processors and preamp stages and how technology like Dirac would “equalize” the result. For example the Denon 3800 on up all share the same processor, the ADSP-20593, their DACs differ and that is measurable. However is it audible? So if you hooked up a 3800 and an A1H to the same amps and the same speakers in the same room, and ran DLBC on both could you hear a difference? Accepting of course that Dirac will spit out a different solution each time and mic placement might be slightly different. Bottom line, when the rubber hits the road, what do you get for your extra $6500? EDIT: Amplifiers aside and if both processors fit your needs - 7.4.4 or fewer speakers.
@@Kevince52 I can hear the difference on expensive speakers (Like Adam Audio S3V) pretty clearly, better DACs give more resolution to the music, adding more stage to the music, better separation of the sounds, the high end is much more enjoyable. But when running it on cheaper speakers (like Dali Ikon 2), the differences become much less noticeable, since the speakers itself cant actually play that added detail/less distortion from the DAC very well - when running it on old Pilot ST550 (year 1990), there is basically no difference at all. So I guess it all goes to what setup you are running and what are all the links in it. Every link adds its own distortion to the sound, possibly masking the differences between DACs output or preamp output
@ agree. Speakers are very important.
Switching from a pretty decent AVR (Marantz 6013/4) to a 7706 and dedicated amps was a noticeable improvement. It was bigger than when I switched from a budget Onkyo to the Marantz although that was very noticable.
Im sure there's a diminishing return that in pretty close to getting to. Swapping prepro and amps this year to accommodate bi amping LCRs and adding 2 more surrounds. My guess is that'll a about do it for me unless new tech comes out.
I had recently done a system where I switched a Marantz AV10 for a Trinnov Alt32. In my opinion, the Trinnov didn’t sound better inherently. It was substantially more flexible and the final system sounded better. But that was due to the tools I had to tune it. It wasn’t like the processor had any lower distortion or noise. They are basically on par with each other. Same with bandwidth. I actually did a little quick comparison where I tried listening to both in an uncalibrated format as a DAC preamp. I was curious what I might hear. I don’t think I could hear a difference and I doubt anyone else could.
Another excellent and informative video! I really like your realistic approach to considerations of budget. For sure, everything is a compromise! Although I’m sure you have some clients that have a very large budget, most of us do not. I would be interested to hear what your go to processor is below the price of the Marantz AV 10 but one that still has DIRAC LIVE? At $7000 it still seems quite expensive to me. I really appreciate you sharing your professional insights to the guys like me that really like this hobby but find it confusing and difficult to implement! Merry Christmas! Tony. 😊😁🇺🇸
I choose processors based on DACs even though the implementation matters more than the type. I have an HTP-1 because it has AKM 4493 DACs and Dirac. Best value in the market at $4K in my opinion. And of course, a well-treated dedicated room is essential.
Just wanted to wish you a merry x-mas from Denmark to you and your family.
Thank you, Happy Holidays!
In the world of smartphones and apps I find that a simple app can transform the sound of my system in the same way that a physical equalizer, preamp, receiver would in the “old days”. So here’s my question, are apps making physical components obsolete? I have an app on my phone that adds incredible low frequency boost and it completely/amazingly transforms how my system sounds. It suddenly sounds like I added a high in subwoofer and all because a simple app. I think the smartphone can replace a lot of physical components that we once used in the past for sound enhancement.
Great video Matt. Speaking of better receivers, any experience with the Storm ISR Fusion 20 vs traditional separates such as AV10 with AMP 10?
I had pioneer receivers. I had never heard any noise
Demo, Demo, Demo. That’s the way. Excellent job.
really great question. more than anything the placement of sounds in a 3d mesh. (atmos) has big improvements with things like 360 spacial sound mapping (sony on the low end and trinnov on the high end) i really feel like things like tonality and performance were aced as far back as my anthem mrx 700 which doesnt image like the best implementations going around now but its so good i havent upgraded my home theatre
Good explanation! Another factor is speaker sensetivity right? A more sensetive speaker will reveal all the cheap dac and noise floor. Btw any benefit to long term Sony ES review ?
I have Klipsch 8000F II, they sound far better on the Yamaha RX-V6A over the RX-A8A which is 5 times the price. The higher end amp makes the Klipsch speakers sound harsh.
Was that mid grade receiver a Pioneer Elite VSX-LX505?
A better receiver is all about proper calibration. A better calibration is all about room acoustics and proper placement of speakers and bass-systems/subwoofers. Calibration technique when it comes to proper mic placement can make any receiver sound bad. Even Audioholics latest instruction video of "How to Do Perfect Measurements" is not done properly. Better sound rely on to many factors and price is the least important 🤝
muddy vs clear, dynamic, separated imho
I can say that changing pre amplifier in an av system can make significant differences. Unfortunately the pre amplifier set up in a lot of AV receivers and processors are very poor and very compromised
Same topic but Amplifiers seems logical that watts are watts kinda like cables are cables
Has anyone considered or accomplished modifying an avr to send spdif digital out to an external dac and pre-amp and using the avr for atmos processing only. I am considering this with a Denon x3600 that I use with amps manually disabled.
ASR measurements show that 3600 is quite capable all around. 3700 was a downgrade and 3800 has a cheaper DAC inside.
@@Hirnlego999 that why I use it. With the amps disabled even better. But the opamps are good but not excellent. Want to use the digital in of a technics g700m2
@@TrueStereo- Well, I believe the amp section of the 3600 should be fully transparent. Probably the only thing I would've done is to use a better cheaper DAC for 2 channel audio, something like SMSL D6S
@@Hirnlego999 that is what I am doing now
it's almost a good thing that I am perpetually broke. Wanting better gear and room treatments is all I can do. So, the money I save from not buying gear seems like a win. I tell my friends I have "no compromises" HT. Can't afford anything, so no compromises made - right? hahaha! Just keeping the expectations of myself inline with reality. Someday, I'll make a close model of a Trinnov processor to drop my dumpster AVR in and I'll look like the deep pocket big boys in Facebook posts. OH! Some Blue Light Meters for good measure. LOL.
Its very hard to tell the difference between AVR and High end processors. Get a good AVR with Preamp outputs and great amplifiers that match your speakers and call it the day. Noise ? I disagree you could hear that, unless you have a problem with connection.
I’ve heard hiss on quite a few systems. Not sure how you can disagree with that. Maybe your spaces are much noisier.
Otherwise sure the high end receivers do sound a lot like the high end processors. They all measure quite low. But receivers typically have low preamp voltage output which leads to worse noise performance and all receivers have more basic setup capabilities than the best processors (like Storm and Trinnov). Often the reason, when budget allows, to use these better processors is the setup flexibility. Not the noise or distortion.
I have that same pioneer and I dont hear the hiss , maybe my ear is not that good or my Martin Logan speakers don’t translate it?My room is terrible in regard to being a good listening environment.What can I look for in measuring?
The ML maybe have low enough sensitivity or your listening area has a higher noise floor. If you can't hear it, maybe it doesn't matter.
You may hear it more by putting your ear next to the speaker :)
so if i spend 100000 on a mic system for my 500 dollar receiver im good right?
My plasma is not not noisy ;^/ Also, and sadly, my ears themselves are not noise-free :|
you can't use the cheap avr, cause I make a living with the high end.
The room is the most important for the sound. But Sony cheap receiver are really perform well. in this time we leaving in, its no correlation between the price and quality. See to Topping dac . Smash everything
So many people out there say "there is no difference in receivers and processors" yet our ears tell a very different story.
I always say there are so many factors involved that its nearly impossible to tell whats making the difference and it could be the receiver or processor and a dozen other things as well.
👏🏼👍🏼🏴🇬🇧
What is the definition of a "better" Receiver.?
And, what is meant by "sound better" ?
I would never buy a Receiver in the first place.
I can achieve a three dimensional sound stage just by using my two front stereo speakers with cross-talk cancellation where the room and the speakers "disappear". I use a separate tube Phono Stage. A tube line level stereo Preamplifier. and a 200 watt per channel Rotel Power Amplifier.
Do you know, the more speakers you put in your room, the worse is the sound. ?