Intel is FIGHTING BACK - Lunar Lake + Arrow Lake Explained - Everything we know about 15th Gen
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2024
- Strap yourselves in because this is going to be a hefty deep dive into everything we know about Intel’s latest lineup of CPUs, and their next gen GPUs too - and there is a lot to talk about. Let’s start with what “Lunar Lake” and “Arrow Lake” mean. Lunar Lake is what Intel has talked the most about, and that’s the next generation of mobile CPUs. Seems like they’ll be 4P 4E core designs at most, so this is likely to be the mid to low end chips, rather than the next set you’ll find in gaming laptops. Arrow Lake is is the next generation of desktop CPUs, and that’s the one Intel hasn’t talked as much about, although Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake are set to be rather similar in their designs, so talking about Lunar Lake should give us a pretty good picture of what’s to come on the desktop. One interesting thing is that the current generation, codenamed Meteor Lake, never came to the desktop. I made a video talking through the frankly major changes Intel made with Meteor Lake, and my expectation we’d see those changes on the desktop front too, but instead Intel re-released the same chips on the desktop with new names, and held fire for the further changes we can see in Lunar Lake. So, what’s new? Well, a hell of a lot…
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It's certainly interesting. Intel is looking to try and be more efficient, it's much needed to be competitive with Ryzen.
I don't think they care about ryzen as much as they want to make Apple come back to use their chips. I can see they are trying to pivot for better mobile chips and use E P cores just like big.little arch in apple's arm arch design. AMD doesn't have that kind of a flexibility to combine different types of cores, yet.
@@slimjimjimslim5923 Does Apple even make a ripple in the market to matter all that much? I always thought Apple's market share was peanuts compared to x86 corporate and enterprise. It's large enough to make Apple gajillions in profit, of course, but in terms of volume (even including phones phones), they're just a drop in the bucket in terms of overall units sold.
@@slimjimjimslim5923 apple will never go wtih intel again, they have there own design and it works why would they go back to making less profit for there own product, in house development is way better for the product and how long it takes to make
@@slimjimjimslim5923E/P cores only exist because they can't have one really efficient core, and if you've been following the latest SoC releases, people are even shifting from it, e.g: X Elite, AMD Ryzen, and MediaTek too with the All big core design CPU, and I don't think Intel Devs are so delusional and trying to get Apple back, they are trying not to lose the contracts they have now with PC vendors and even trying to open more Intel foundries to competitors
@slimjimjimslim5923 even if Intel chips were twice as fast and efficient Apple would not use Intel again. Apple wants complete control over every part of the hardware inside their devices.
I really appreciate that intel prioritized the efficiency and even used TSMC instead of being stubborn and using their own silicon which is not quite at the same level yet
yet they are not even going to available until end of the year or next year.
Congratulations on 100K subs by the way.
They are using tsmc because they have a better process than what intel can ship at volume right now. 20A is better but not at volume.
Also consider that the chips get designed ahead of time, even if they wanted to use intel fabs, in that point back in time 2 years ago or less, they saw TSMC in a better position. So they made a strong choice to play it safe or gamble it. I think Intel took the best option at that time for those chips.
They’re using N3B for the Battlemage GPUs but the CPUs remain on 18A
@@PaulsTechSpace18A is Panther Lake in 2025. No 18A chips are launching this year
@@moist_ointment on the original roadmaps, Lunar lake was labeled as 18A
@PaulsTechSpace I've never seen any roadmap to suggest that.
18A, being early 2025, is 6 months ahead of original schedule. Intel purchased large volume of N3B years ago.
The timelines don't align
Great job on the video. Intel's poised to make a comeback? That's great news! We can't have AMD turning into Intel on the CPU side, and Nvidia needs more competition than just Radeon.
E-cores should have no problem with access L3 cache, they do have access to Memory Side cache 8 Mb. Regarding comparison E-cores to Raptor cove. This is comparison E-cores that are connected to a L3 and ring bus, it's Arrow Lake btw. This can be seen in the slides.
Amazing overview
I don't know if you can call Lunar Lake low end when it will likely be the fastest chip to date running Windows tasks like those found on pcmark10. It will be extremely responsive in business class laptops and ultrabooks while beating Qualcomm on power consumption which is just slightly better than Meteor Lake per notebookcheck.
Lunar Lake is more like Low-Mid Range. Strix Point will take up High End. To compete, Intel will also release high end Arrow Lake to Laptop. Lunar Lake is mostly meant for business class laptops, for college students, and for people who want a portable option for AI, Gaming and Productivity.
Good especulation and explanation about the topics. Very down to earth and sober. It seems good news to see Intel introducing changes to the organization of the blocks. Meteor lake still quite decent leap but didn't reach the hype promised. Given my urgency I think I will get a Meteor Lake now instead of wait for the innovation and performance that is coming with Lunar Lake. Again, efficiency will be great but Meteor Lake is quite good for most people according to my understand. Battery saving in Lunar Lake will be great, though. The nail in the coffin was that we didn't see Thunderbolt 5 in Lunar Lake.
Wonder if they’ll fix the latency / stuttering? I get it on my windows 13-gen laptop. I thought it was BS until I experienced it myself.
Several laptop chip designs didn’t come to desktop. Icelake and tigerlake are someone what recent examples
HT isn't necessarily going to the grave. It's just not present in the *mobile parts* at least this time around. HT still makes a lot of sense in the desktop and server parts. I don't think we have heard that HT is completely, universally dead, yet. On mobile, that 20% power for 30% IPC (remember, that IPC is for the whole core, ie 2 threads running at the same time, not a single thread of execution) doesn't make as much sense when power consumption is the primary design consideration.
I’m really looking forward to efficient hardware going forward. And the only reason I’d upgrade my system at this point
Intel also said HT is modular. They removed it in Lunarlake but Arrow lake and Xeon are a different story. Xeon will have hyperthreading but we don't know if Arrow lake will. Or even if it's there, low end arrow lake may not have it
I enjoyed your detailed summary. I like how Intel is taking on ARM with their new and improved version of x64. Battery longevity is a must. However, manufacturers tend to reduce, not increase battery capacity from these efficiencies, which is ridiculous. I wouldn't mind if AMD & Intel dabbled into creating their own ARM SOC. Definitely great times for Apple, Qualcomm, Intel, AMD & the consumer.
Intel should provide an option for users to choose whether to use the onboard low latency 16/32GB memory as L4 cache and provide additional memory slots on the motherboard.
We'll see about that when independent reviews arrive. Best reaction i can give right now is "sounds promising".
my curiosity is camm next ddr6 module ?
I'm actually super excited for Lunar Lake, hoping it's super power efficient :)
Great summary
I'm curious. Why are they building AI into the CPU core if they already have the NPU? And why do they build the NPU if they already have AI support in the GPU? Do all *PUs need AI support? If so, are they aimed at different AI workloads? Which are good at what? So many questions...
The AI in the CPU isn't actually ai, it's just finds the best way to use the cores
Npus are better at ai workloads then GPUs, GPU uses more power as well,
It's like making a CPU do GPU things
The AI allows them to change clocks on the fly.
His explanation was wrong. What Intel is saying is that they moved from setting clocks using a table to AI deciding what clocks they need based on the current temperature and workload.
This also means Lunarlake may be more inconsistent amongst reviewers
AMD lost it.
with 8c/8t it’s very unlikely that lunar lake will be remotely competitive with amd in multicore performance
i don't know if this is a silly question but i'm kinda new to all this gaming pc and streaming stuff but if hyperthreading makes the core more powerful how come the i7 9700k didn't beat the i9 9900k in single-core performance as the hyperthreading is taken away from the i7?, if you get what i mean
Single core is technically single thread in some benchmarks. So you are comparing a 1C/1T chip against a 1C/1T chip. It will be a draw.
I don't know this right！ Here is my result of conclusion：Since the launch of the Alder Lake 12th generation Core, the processor architecture has begun to shift towards multi-density processing and no longer focuses on single-core performance. Hyper-threading technology is mainly used to improve single-core performance. Now, the new architecture focuses on optimizing multi-core performance and multi-density processing to achieve the best performance state of the processor.
Not sure my thought is correctly
Congrats on 100k subs!
arrow lake plus battlemage should be pretty great combination
Meteor Lake never came to desktop because they had, and still have, mountains of 13th and 14th gen desktop CPUs in the distribution pipeline and didn't want to crush sales. It's that simple.
also Meteor Lake desktop probably won't be as fast as Raptor lake, they would just be more power efficient. In that case, it make sense Meteor Lake desktop not to exist. Power efficiency is more of a mobile chip and server concern anyway. And for server Intel already got Sierra Forest e-core clusters on the way.
@@slimjimjimslim5923 Yup, Meteor Lake was both a clock speed and IPC regression. A pretty hard sell when Meteor Lake also costs more to produce than Raptor Lake.
what people i think are missing is that intel is continuously moving towards a focus on the data center along with nvidia
Amazing info sub for life ty for the video
Lunar Lake has built-in 16GB or 32GB memory on SoC, that 's quite exciting. If overall system performance and efficiency like what Intel claimed, it will kill Qualcomm Snapdragon X laptops, and gain large market share back from AMD.
Snapdragon X Elite isn't gonna fair very well against Lunar Lake even if it fell short. It has marginally higher battery life against Meteor Lake, and while it does have decent single core and multicore performance(in most cases at least), it struggles in gaming. Lunar Lake should be able to beat that quite easily. The real competition with Lunar Lake is with Low-Mid Range Strix Point.
@@auritro3903 x-elite is hobbled by win-on-arm more than anything else. Just cannot gain the x-86 maturity in a short time. Emulation layer will have glitches and hiccups for many non-MS apps.
Intel has straight up stated that at the time of designing Lunar Lake TSMC had the better node for the job. Simple as that, apparently. A more humble Intel under Pat Gelsinger 🤷♂️
i actually have pretty high hopes for this. i think in terms of real /scientific workloads these new CPUs are going to absolutely destroy the competition.
Its a shame that intel giving Xe2 gpu on Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake getting only tweaked version of Xe1st gen
所以LUNAR LAKE 將來不會用在高階筆電作為 CPU嗎？？？？
This niche is for Arrow Lake mobile chips
we all know what means "up to..." ^^ we will see in practice ..
Meteor lake desktop delay too much until there's no point to deliver it. That's why jumping into Arrow lake instead.❤😂
Finally Intel chips are interesting again! They appear efficient, but that doesn't mean they still won't suck down tons of power during high performance loads.
It would be nice if I can stop ripping on Intel for putting out enough heat to cook steaks with.
And I for one am glad hyper-threading died, it had a purpose before but not anymore.
I agree. Intel's strutting away from Hyper Threating is like a millennial change in their technology. Which they induced for entire Earth. I hope they know what they are doing. And hold on for a second, if i get this idea right... Integrating RAM module into CPU die? That seems to me like they found latency may brake performance of their chip. Nothing is without a reason. I really wish they show us the engineering sample, one with RAM modules outside chip, and one with integrated.
Apple has RAM on package. Lunar Lake, if you look at the die shots, looks very similar to base M series design. It began development when M1 was released.
i hope intel or someone else stateside can catch up with TSMC. it’s not good to have all of that capability centralized in one island of the world
Lunar Lake looks nice, but is limited to only 32 GB RAM :(
it's aimed at mid-low end laptops i think it's sensible
It's for thin and low power laptops. They said that higher end chips from the next generation will be able to use upgradeable memory if the manufacturer decides to do so. Frankly, nothing is changing here at least for the end user from what we currently have.
Considering thats it's for low-mid end light laptops that most people are gonna use for software purposes and with AI, with a tinge of gaming in it, 32 GB is honestly pretty good. Most gamers themselves don't use over 32 GB RAM on their desktops unless it's a high end build like a i7/R7 + 4070S/7800XT + build.
The idea is that by the time you really need the Memory upgrade, you properly need a CPU upgrade as well. I never think solder in memory is a bad idea, especially when they did it right. You get higher performance. But yes, 8GB solder in stupid. Apple....
@@auritro3903 I have now 32G on my ThinkPad P16s with 12th Gen Intel i7-1270P processor and would like to have the next ThinkPad with a processor like Lunar Lake and 64G Ram. If Lunar Lake is limited to 32G now, then perhaps next year will be a next generation of such processors, which support up to 64G.
It is true that 32G is enough for almost everything, but running AIs locally, WSL with docker containers it is better to have more.
TOPS / CPU Hz = ___________________?
Can't wait to put them into an Asus motherboard
desperate times require desperate measures... Good Luck Intel, you had your time and you wasted... ARM!
only real application testing side by side can be trust. since last year Intel had already told everyone core ultra how good on paper, and how the benchmark kick amd ass. but we all know the outcome is core ultra even can’t beat amd a year older product. especially the igpu, the 3dmark of core ultra is 15-20% faster than 780m, however core ultra lose almost all real gaming test. Intel put too much water on their marketing, so I don’t trust any information they announced.
so you saying 20% less power and same single core performance and maybe little more mulitcore performance :-p i hope intel make Arc performe better with arc and intel cpu
The more I learn about arrow lake, the less I'm excited for it. Lion cove has only 14% ipc improvement over the worthless regressive meteor lake with 1.5 nodes jump. There's no way arrow lake would be competitive with zen5x3d while costing significantly more to produce. Dead on arrival.
"Significnatly more to produce "
What are the costs of each, specifically?
The Redwood Cove cores have higher IPC.
Actual regressions are from memory access which Arrow lake and Lunarlake have lower latencies
i am so glad hyperthreading is going to be gone
Tf is that branding? Are they trying to trick people out of buying Ryzen?
All this talk is USELESS unless they ship it and it PERFORMS!. If Ryzen keeps ripping it, there is no chance!.
Intel having the entire chip at TSMC says something where they were at with 'intel 3' a couple of years ago not how the node is acting now.
if Arrowlake gets pushed back that would say something about intel 3 now.
I hope it's a good chip that acts like what apple is offering
Intel 3 literally just launched this month and was planned for the Xeon line. Arrow Lake and Lunar Lake were never Intel 3 parts.
Phoronix has (Intel 3 based) Sierra Forest reviews already.
I am not so sure about intel anymore. Unless they get their thermals in check and work with laptop OEMs to give decent battery life, they are not going to work in the ultra portable line of laptops.
My Lenovo Yoga 7X with Snapdragon X Elite has been amazing as a portable laptop for coding, productivity, and media consumption. I am getting 12-16 hours of battery life on average over the past 2 days of me using it.
Another person who drank the ARM on windows koolaid
Stop calling it 15th gen.
It's even more confusing that way!
these are core ultra 2nd gen.
My eyes: Core Ultra 7 200 series.
My heart: Core i7 15th Gen.
@@auritro3903speaking for us all
It is interesting that the chip was designed in Israel.
The Design is pretty good. I like the combination of CISC architecture with a very good power control. Perfect Performance per Watt. Performance exactly when you need it, otherwise economical.
Dothan, the precursor for the core architecture, was also designed in Israel. i ran a 1.6ghz dothan cpu on an asus motherboard with a socket adapter, and it would run at 2.4ghz all day long. it was the fastest faming cpu at the time. lets hope they deliver again.
Intel pumps out a lot tech specs but what matters is real world performance relative to competitors. Nothing suggests their next gen chips will beat the new ARM in power efficiency or AMD in iGPU or EPYC . In other words, it seems like they will lose even more ground. It's in the fab space Intel lost their edge. IMO if Intel wants to be clear performance king again it will probably depend on if their upcoming fabs that use ASMLs Twinscan lithography machines can finally beat the best TSMC can offer.
It reminds me of Nokia's N9. Nokia in the late 2000's in the smartphone industry was like Intel now. They had been the king, but Apple/Google came. Nokia tried not to lose to the new smartphone trend with their next-gen N9, but it miserably failed. I think the tide has turned to ARM. No matter what Intel does, I don't think they can catch up. Apple and Qualcomm won't stay still till Intel catch up.
Than I think you don't really understand how cpu works and how they are designed. ISA doesn't guarantee performance and efficiency but your microarchitechtural changes and design focus do make a difference.
@@KP21530 That's the same thing also said by jim keller himself. ARM will not magically give efficiency. Everyone is sleeping on lunar lake when it seems it will be the best chip for laptop on windows side
There is a reason why big desktop games can't run in arm laptops. Because arm will run on same or more power than x86 if that happens.
@@MrDevilex94 Yeah but most of the people and youtubers think if its arm it is going to be more efficient, which is true but only in some cases and with node shrink the difference will be negligible.
TSMC have a new 'fab' in the USA, that's why Intel are outsourcing - it makes financial sense.
TSMC’s US Arizona fab isn’t active yet, so this is incorrect. They’ve already said they’re using TSMC because TSMC has a better node at the moment. In the future Intel will switch to using their own nodes.
@@killercage2 I think they also said Arrowlake will be using the new Intel node as well.
@@thetheoryguy5544 hasn’t been fully elaborated on but the prevailing rumor is they’re using Intel 20a for the CPU tile on certain midrange Arrow Lake chips. They’ll still use TSMC for most of the tiles on though.
@@thetheoryguy5544 20Ångström
Lunar Lake is the only CPU lineup by Intel using a TSMC node. While Lunar Lake was being designed, Intel's foundry was going through a major restructuring, where they were rapidly improving from 10nm Intel 7 to 1.8nm Intel 18A. Now that Intel 3, Intel 20A and Intel 18A are up and running, Intel once again seems to have the node superiority, and will switch to using their own fabs again. Not to mention, Xeon 6 is being manufactured on Intel 3, while Arrow Lake is being manufactured on Intel 20A. Upcoming Panther Lake is also going to be manufactured in 18A, giving node superiority potentially back to Intel.
Game over for X86. Snapdragon is ripping through benchmarks across the board
dont make me laugh. Everyone is mocking it for how mediocre it is delusional arm fan
And by ripping, you mean it's struggling against Meteor Lake and Hawk Point? It's barely even an Intel/AMD competitor, let alone a fucking M3 destroyer.
In benchmarks, an X Elite chip in the Vivobook has barely higher batterly life than a 155H, and has much lower than that of a 7840U(and from what I've heard, possibly even a 185H). The multicore performance is decent? But it gets mauled in gaming by Intel and AMD(and even apple sometimes). Even though it has a strong point in AI, Lunar Lake and Strix Point are coming out soon anyways, both of which have better NPUs and much higher platform TOPS than the X Elite. And while there are better models of the X Elite, they aren't as significant of an upgrade over the base X Elite, and will likely be crushed by Strix Point and Lunar Lake.
Do people even know why x86 is still here? Because it has instruction set that both ARM or RISC V or whatever "reduce instruction set" CPU are lacking. So how come ARM is so "popular", and the answer is simple, because the device that runs ARM aren't design for running applications that needed those "other" instruction set. And the true is, if they do need those addition instruction set. they simply would have to either figure out some way to converted, and take the performance hit, OR, they would have to make an "extension pack" for the CPU. Gaming, video editing, or other meida creation or comsuption aren't all that people use computer for.
@@iokwong1871 there's no real advantage in either RISC or CISC
while RISC requires less cycles for an instruction it requires more instructions to do the same thing bcs it is lacking some
ARM based SoCs are likely only ahead bcs the priority has always been low power consumption
i think all the other advancements in the microarchitecture of ARM SoCs are what make them more efficient not the instruction set itself
also most apps and especially games are compiled to x86 so you'll need to run them under emulation which requires more power so it's safe to say x86 isn't going anywhere for the next 10 years
@@niveZz- I would argue that most games probably won't be needed x86. But I don't know all the major game engines to make that claim for sure. But look at nearly all of not all Open source games that can compile ARM or RISC V no problems , except for those who use x86 specific assembly codes. But yeah, 9/10 of the people who said x86 is dead don't really know what they are talking about.
intel lost it.
They did, but under Pat Gelsinger they will come back, whether it is via their processors or via their Fab business
And now on the upswing back I believe