Can't Help ATC While VFR Above the Clouds

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  • Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2020
  • Lunch at TAS was great but it's time to depart Defiance, Ohio and head back home. I climb VFR above the clouds and unfortunately can't help ATC when they asked me to descend for traffic heading into Chicago Midway Airport. We did get to see a Southwest Airlines 737 pass under us 500 feet waiting to climb till they got past us. I also briefly explain my theory of managing fuel levels for flight.
    Also follow me on:
    Patreon - / 310pilot
    Instagram - / 310_pilot
    Website/Store - www.310pilot.net
    Maintenance by: TAS Aviation; 419.658.4444; tas-aviation.com
    For more information on the autopilot: stec3100.genesys-aerosystems....
    Music by: / piano-rock-instrumental
    The 126ers - Lonesome Avenue
    This video is for entertainment purposes only and is not intended as instruction in any way. For instruction please contact your local flight school.
    This video does not represent the views of the FAA.

Комментарии • 243

  • @MikeJamesMedia
    @MikeJamesMedia 3 года назад +2

    Always interesting and fun. Thanks for all the effort to share these flights with us!

  • @robertwren2289
    @robertwren2289 3 года назад +2

    Always enjoy flying with you!

  • @waynehoeft6265
    @waynehoeft6265 3 года назад +3

    Love flying with you ! keep up the good work

  • @s8tmanpaul77
    @s8tmanpaul77 3 года назад +3

    Nice landing Kevin!! Really enjoy when you take us through what you do during flight!

  • @spiro5327
    @spiro5327 3 года назад +2

    Another nice flight, enjoying the videos as always. Thanks mate.

  • @spencerbright629
    @spencerbright629 3 года назад +2

    Love the vid man keep up the good work

  • @Jesse-le9bh
    @Jesse-le9bh 3 года назад +2

    Thanks Kevin. As always a good one.

  • @Donaica1
    @Donaica1 3 года назад +3

    Nice flying with you again ❤️

  • @williamsellers704
    @williamsellers704 3 года назад +2

    Nice to see you again Kevin. I always enjoy riding along. Always learning something new.

  • @vanallen9453
    @vanallen9453 3 года назад +2

    Thanks again Kevin...always interesting...

  • @billroberts4012
    @billroberts4012 3 года назад +2

    Thank you Kevin for sharing

  • @nickbening4368
    @nickbening4368 3 года назад +13

    It’s so cool how he recognized the Chicago approach controllers and they recognize him back

    • @masseypadgham7113
      @masseypadgham7113 3 года назад +9

      He is a senior controller at Chicago ATC, even trained a bunch of them.

    • @okiegrandboater
      @okiegrandboater 3 года назад +3

      It would be weird if they didn’t since they all work together 😀

  • @aztecpilot9862
    @aztecpilot9862 3 года назад

    Close proximity to the airlines is really cool. I'm glad you were able to record that! Keep up the nice work.

  • @jimeaton9244
    @jimeaton9244 3 года назад

    Thank you Kevin for letting us ride along! They way your doing this is cool , like we’re family / much appreciated & enjoyed.

  • @itzjoeylo4501
    @itzjoeylo4501 3 года назад +11

    You were in Ohio when you guys went to Put-in-Bay. Thank you for the great content Kevin I live vicariously through you and your content. In my younger years I had the opportunity to start flying lessons and decided to stay on the ground with my RC hobby and chose not to proceed with the training. Keep up the great work

  • @flyinbrianewing
    @flyinbrianewing 3 года назад +4

    I was in the middle of helicopter ground school but you guys have made fixed wing look so fun and shown me how practical it is to travel this way that I'm changing. I worked in Aurora for years and I'm now in Rockford so I might run into you someday.

  • @terrysesco7157
    @terrysesco7157 3 года назад +2

    Thanks Kevin, I've been watching for couple weeks and have enjoyed catching up on general aviation flying thru your youtube channel. Looks like the good Lord blessed you with a great family also. I'm retired Air Force, aviation maintenance but, use to fly private pilot a lot. So, watching your channel keeps love of flying more than just a memory. Aim high and Go Dawgs........Terry

  • @palhein-reim7430
    @palhein-reim7430 3 года назад +1

    Thanks for taking the time to create high quality vids like these for those of us who couldn’t complete our dream of flying,professionally. Thank you!

  • @JodelFlyer
    @JodelFlyer 3 года назад +2

    As I have said before Kevin, always enjoy flying with you. I don't always comment as I know you get lots of comments as your channel continues to grow but it's good to know who is watching and what they are thinking. Another lockdown here in England so no flying for at least a month so looking forward to the next trip with you. Best wishes to you, Jaime and the family 😎👍🇬🇧Tim

  • @bobbrandt6383
    @bobbrandt6383 3 года назад +2

    Another enjoyable video especially when you’re on top of the cloud layer.

  • @davidbaumgartner7215
    @davidbaumgartner7215 3 года назад +36

    Not a pilot, but enjoy watching your videos. Hopefully going to plan a discovery flight soon to see what its like. Thanks for getting me interested in flying.

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +5

      Glad you're enjoying the videos David and hope you have a blast on your discovery flight!! Check back and let us know your thoughts. :)

    • @brandonhoffman5663
      @brandonhoffman5663 3 года назад +10

      Proceed with your Discovery flight with caution, I did mine to "see how id like it" and now $15k in and 50 flight hours later I have my PPL checkride next week lol. Flying is a literal drug haha

    • @brandonhoffman5663
      @brandonhoffman5663 3 года назад +2

      @NonyaBusiness! I too was asked to land on my discovery flight and was more nervous ive ever been in my life and somehow magically greased it

    • @davidbaumgartner7215
      @davidbaumgartner7215 3 года назад +2

      Thanks guys, I'll take my time but like all of you, I'm sure I'll get addicted. Just wish I could get my wife to enjoy it she likes her feet on the ground.

    • @brandonhoffman5663
      @brandonhoffman5663 3 года назад

      @NonyaBusiness! Are you referring to him "flaring" as a wheelie?

  • @patrickpepper4587
    @patrickpepper4587 3 года назад +3

    Very nice Kevin and you’ve really got your landings down nicely ...

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +1

      Thanks Patrick...glad to have those back to normal!! :)

  • @micbrooks5912
    @micbrooks5912 3 года назад

    Greased it Kevin! Good stuff as always!

  • @archstanton9206
    @archstanton9206 3 года назад

    Never get too much of that view out over the tip tank, then the pan to the spinner and the prop turning...just love it. Think that view must trigger the memory from my ride in a 310 about 45 years ago.

  • @JimsPlanesandTrains
    @JimsPlanesandTrains 3 года назад

    Excellent video sir! Makes me excited about getting my multi in a Seminole in the spring! It really crazy you can tell your coworkers apart on the radio, I think Sarah has worked me before, but that’s the only voice I’ve been able to distinguish.

  • @neilditsler
    @neilditsler 3 года назад +1

    Love the older 310's with the tuna tanks. Great video as always.

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +1

      They are pretty as well Neil. :) Glad you enjoyed it!

  • @edwardkirkland686
    @edwardkirkland686 3 года назад +1

    Nice landing ! Good job enjoy your videos.

  • @alanblack9540
    @alanblack9540 3 года назад

    That was agreat vlog Kevin. Very enjoyable.

  • @waqarsyed6641
    @waqarsyed6641 3 года назад +2

    AWESOME very cool. Fly safe

  • @grummangreaser4701
    @grummangreaser4701 3 года назад +4

    KEVO!!! Love the content brother.

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +2

      Thank you...glad you're enjoying it!!

  • @N98858
    @N98858 3 года назад +3

    Nice Ride Back Kevin... Thanks ';-)

  • @doesntmatter3068
    @doesntmatter3068 3 года назад

    Defiance Oh,,, I lived there for 16 years and is where I did my training for my private.
    That was pretty cool seeing that again as I moved away from there years ago..
    I used to rent a Cardinal RG from there too...Can't believe Tony still there!!
    Thanks for the walk (ride) down memory lane!! 👍

  • @mikeramsey9747
    @mikeramsey9747 3 года назад

    I use to work the Fort Wayne Approach 1993-2004, nice seeing your flight up through the Chicago area.

  • @dalesmith9865
    @dalesmith9865 3 года назад

    Hey Kevin, looks like you have the landings down to a science. Thanks for taking us along.

  • @donaldholman9070
    @donaldholman9070 3 года назад +1

    Great video, thank you

  • @lechstryzewski9350
    @lechstryzewski9350 3 года назад

    Textbook landing ..... That was beautiful Kevin !!!!

  • @buckbuchanan5849
    @buckbuchanan5849 3 года назад +3

    Thanks Kevin, always enjoy your videos!

  • @tonymezzacappa1067
    @tonymezzacappa1067 3 года назад +2

    Hi Kevin,
    On those refueling suggestions that you've heard, another good point that I have thought of when I was working the ramp is:
    Imagine all that weight on that spar and for how many days? Not to mention flat spots developing on the tires!
    Glad you had a great time.

  • @garyjones6862
    @garyjones6862 3 года назад +1

    good 2 see u flying keep it up...........

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +1

      Will do Gary!! We have a bunch of fun trips coming out soon where Jaime and I tour New England, go down to Tennessee and Arkansas....stay tuned. :)

  • @ede8193
    @ede8193 3 года назад +1

    I live in Ohio...in the Akron area, great video Kevin!

  • @garydell2023
    @garydell2023 3 года назад +1

    Another nice uneventful flight. Thank you Kevin.

  • @jaiden575
    @jaiden575 3 года назад +3

    heyyy,love your vids!
    Love from Toronto🇨🇦

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +3

      Glad you're enjoying them! On our upcoming New England series we fly across Canada coming back from Niagara. :)

    • @jaiden575
      @jaiden575 3 года назад +2

      @@310Pilot Cool! Hope you like your time in Canada!😀

  • @fininho220
    @fininho220 3 года назад

    Hi Kevin, this is from Brazil. I don't miss a video man hehe. Good flights!

  • @generalsnickers1
    @generalsnickers1 3 года назад +1

    Nice flight.

  • @donc9751
    @donc9751 3 года назад +3

    You've got your landings dialed now that you have realized the extra lift your new wing vortex generators helps!

  • @michaelburke9153
    @michaelburke9153 3 года назад +1

    Nice quiet flight.

  • @gerdawhite6012
    @gerdawhite6012 3 года назад +1

    Sweet ride - thanks.

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +1

      Glad you enjoyed it Gerda!

  • @firemedic1329
    @firemedic1329 3 года назад

    Thats awesome I grew up about 15 mins from Defiance My brother is a pilot and we would fly from OWX and up that way quite a bit beautiful area.

  • @mattcollins4550
    @mattcollins4550 3 года назад +1

    Glad you found the hole... once again :-D

  • @FiremanSVFD-cf1jn
    @FiremanSVFD-cf1jn 3 года назад

    Them landings are butter lol. Seen a jam up emergency landing yesterday in a bean field. Single engine plane had just left fayettville regional airport for Savannah. Number 6 piston blowed and he put it down in the field with no damage. The plane stopped about 10 feet from the fence along interstate 95.

  • @larrymayberry2312
    @larrymayberry2312 3 года назад

    Don't you just love that newly installed inhibit button? Great video, glad you had fun. We sure miss Jamie.

  • @scotty11782
    @scotty11782 3 года назад

    Thanks Kevin

  • @freakfly23
    @freakfly23 3 года назад +1

    I love it when I find the hole.

  • @keithcollins6303
    @keithcollins6303 3 года назад

    Fun to see you land in Aurora. I've driven past the airport just off Hwy 30 several times coming to see my sister who lives on the east side of the Fox River. By the way, don't miss the Tedeschi Trucks Band at River Edge Park on July 15, 2021. Great band.

  • @soarandskor.aviation
    @soarandskor.aviation 3 года назад +1

    Noticed your hat while watching, go gators! Hall are going down! Love your content nonetheless, and you were one of my main influences in starting my ppl. Keep it up, and maybe I’ll see you in the sky one day!

  • @williamrouse3510
    @williamrouse3510 3 года назад

    Very much enjoy your videos. 1BC is a pretty bird!

  • @roncarguy72
    @roncarguy72 3 года назад

    Nice truck dude!

  • @james3282
    @james3282 3 года назад

    Great landing 👌 👍 👏 😀 😎

  • @HoosierPilot
    @HoosierPilot 3 года назад +7

    Love it. I’m glad to see you’re still getting to do aviation events despite COVID.

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +7

      I'm happy to be able to get at least a little of it in. We are still staying as safe as possible and being cognizant. :)

    • @HoosierPilot
      @HoosierPilot 3 года назад +5

      @@310Pilot we’ve all got to be safe, but we can’t stop living life .

    • @AleRon72
      @AleRon72 3 года назад +1

      Whereas here in the U.K., the government have just bannedGA until December 😤

    • @HoosierPilot
      @HoosierPilot 3 года назад

      @@AleRon72 wow! That’s crazy. I’m sorry to hear that.

    • @freakfly23
      @freakfly23 3 года назад

      @Werner Voss they gave up their means to stop the government in the UK.

  • @Parr4theCourse
    @Parr4theCourse 3 года назад

    Good job, I noticed you fly VFR a lot, I've started doing that a little more often as well, more options!
    Looks like the 2021 ACCA will be up near you're way, hope to see ya again!!

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +2

      I like both VFR and IFR and select based on airspace, weather and mood. :) I saw they were going to be close. Now I can do what you did and just visit while sleeping in my own bed.

    • @Parr4theCourse
      @Parr4theCourse 3 года назад

      @@310Pilot
      But NOW..... we can’t!!!
      Oh well, looks like a great location!

  • @rckuhmann
    @rckuhmann 3 года назад +1

    Thanks for sharing! Yet another fun trip (indeed) ... keep 'em coming! Dr. R.C. Kuhmann, PhD. Delavan, WI. Am thinking to acquire an SR22. East Trop airport is 15 mins from my door.

  • @N1120A
    @N1120A 3 года назад

    Good explanation of fuel management when you fly something that carries more fuel. If you don't need the extra gas, you can save a good chunk of cash when you do tanker.

  • @kcolombo49
    @kcolombo49 3 года назад

    I like your camera setup.

  • @UPdan
    @UPdan 3 года назад

    Love to watch the landings. Next summer, Toronto?

  • @johntrent121
    @johntrent121 3 года назад +2

    Hi Kevin. Always fun watching your videos. It occurred to me when you mentioned Jaimie, do you consider yourself a pilot first who happens to be an Air Traffic Controller or an AT Controller first who is also a pilot? Either way, I am a little bit envious. As a pilot, I think working traffic and keeping flying for fun is the best way to go. And, when you and Jaimie are ready for a change of pace, consider a trip to the Southwest. Lots to see and an add on to your piloting skills; mountain flying.
    John

  • @outdoororiginal4364
    @outdoororiginal4364 3 года назад +3

    Sure do miss your wingman with you. God bless sir.

    • @notevenfound
      @notevenfound 3 года назад

      so what exactly happen? never caught on

  • @benklotz6881
    @benklotz6881 3 года назад

    Man all those twin cessna's! my personal heaven!

  • @JohnTalbot-k6xi
    @JohnTalbot-k6xi 3 года назад +2

    Nice Trip (!!)

  • @jcims
    @jcims 3 года назад

    Once wifi was available on commercial flights I started watching FlightRadar24 while we were in the air and would look for other planes. Saw one fly opposite heading under us by probably 1000' while we were both up at 35k feet or so. Pretty amazing how fast everything is moving.

  • @okiegrandboater
    @okiegrandboater 3 года назад

    Couldn’t agree with you more on the not topping the tanks everytime I land. I fly a single engine with long range tanks, holds 94 gallons. Most of.of my missions are 2 hour flights. I understand being taught to top the tanks to keep the condensation to minimal but for me the lighter plane that equals a higher climb rate and the ability to stuff the plane completely full at a moments notice with out being anywhere near gross is worth taking a little extra time and making extra sure there is no water in the fuel😀

  • @richorourke7872
    @richorourke7872 3 года назад +3

    Have a good day kevin. Sorry Jamie
    Had too work be safe!

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад

      Thanks Rich...hope you have a nice one as well. :)

    • @desireeramsey1277
      @desireeramsey1277 3 года назад

      Another enjoyable video especially when you’re on top of the cloud layer.

  • @tucksmith8300
    @tucksmith8300 3 года назад +3

    That was a nice little flight home from Ohio and how do you like your pickup truck?

  • @zanebandy3380
    @zanebandy3380 3 года назад

    Go to Grimes Field (I74) in Urbana, Ohio! Get some breakfast at the airport cafe lol it would be cool to see you fly in to my home town!

  • @raypelot1512
    @raypelot1512 3 года назад

    Nice flight. Btw. GO DAWGS!

  • @donemory7459
    @donemory7459 3 года назад

    Thumbs-up Kevin! Don/NE Ohio :-)

  • @lp2733
    @lp2733 3 года назад

    Nice video👍. What are those crops around Aurora, they’re so green?

  • @jerrysolomon7623
    @jerrysolomon7623 3 года назад +3

    I think your flight path came close flying over my home.

  • @andyrechenberg
    @andyrechenberg 3 года назад +4

    Put-In-Bay is technically Ohio but not "mainland" Ohio 😉Thanks for the great videos!

    • @jcims
      @jcims 3 года назад

      Nor is it 'mainstream' Ohio haha.

  • @karlfair
    @karlfair 3 года назад

    You made it look easy Kevin. Thanks for the episode.

  • @JustinOhio
    @JustinOhio 3 года назад

    Put N Bay was in Ohio. :) Visiting Hocking Hills would be fun for you two.

  • @edwardwerthner7717
    @edwardwerthner7717 3 года назад

    Great stuff, what’s your trick to monitor gas flo between tanks

  • @lenyancey5236
    @lenyancey5236 3 года назад

    Hey Kev, why no "tap the brakes, gear comin' up" lately? lol Are you just leaving them down now? 🤣🤣 Just kidding. Nice flying! Sierra hotel!

  • @lrodpeterson3046
    @lrodpeterson3046 3 года назад +1

    Curious. I like your calls, even when solo: fuel flow, 1700 RPM, airspeed alive, airspeeds, rotate, tap the brakes, gear up, etc. I had started doing the same thing back in the '80s, 20 years after getting my license. I'm curious why you don't call "positive rate" as the precedent for "gear up".
    I don't think it's possible to control the airspace around CGT and JOT without a special concern for VFR traffic between 60 and 100. Nice to see others doing it, and with your special knowledge, you doing so, too.

  • @larrylara6589
    @larrylara6589 3 года назад

    Sorry Dawg! GatorNation............this year. Great video full of info, as always. Thanks

  • @satguy
    @satguy 3 года назад

    I have always wondered what do you do for a living, that allows you to fly the way you do. Thanks

  • @rayvonnesr1672
    @rayvonnesr1672 3 года назад

    Hey Kevin.... is the 310 wider then the 340? It seems like it’s more comfortable as well. Not as cramped. You guys are doing a great job and very natural! 👍🏼

  • @bobmcgehee1749
    @bobmcgehee1749 3 года назад +1

    Nice grease job Kev

  • @james3282
    @james3282 3 года назад +4

    I enjoy your videos and information but as a nonpilot, I'm just trying to figure out what everything means, letters, what is being said, I usually catch the planes code.

  • @zebrabob
    @zebrabob 3 года назад +7

    You've been to Ohio before when you and Jamie went to Put-In-Bay! Enjoy the videos. If you ever go back to Mackinac Island, try flying up the west coast of Michigan and catch my home area of Frankfort and Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes!

    • @310Pilot
      @310Pilot  3 года назад +2

      Yeah, I had forgot and put the link to the Put-in-Bay video up at the end. Oops. :) We for sure need to check out the Dunes there...heard good things.

    • @tjpruitt4778
      @tjpruitt4778 3 года назад +1

      Put in bay is a blast my wife and I have been there on a day trip love it

  • @DrewAnth
    @DrewAnth 3 года назад

    12:35 Thank you sir.

  • @jch5150
    @jch5150 3 года назад

    Need more Jamie in these videos. 😎

  • @inquisitive980
    @inquisitive980 3 года назад +2

    Kevin,
    Did I miss the brakes on to 1700 before starting your roll?

  • @rhkennerly
    @rhkennerly 3 года назад +5

    On landing, why we're your mixture knobs so uneven? (one further forward than the other).

    • @jonashelmke2564
      @jonashelmke2564 3 года назад +1

      My first thought was this might act like a workaround for rudder trim? I'd love to know as well.

  • @spaceshuttle8332
    @spaceshuttle8332 3 года назад

    Awesome video! Quick question at 13:40 why are the gauges on the right next to the RPM (right above the yoke) moving all over when you're doing the approach and landing? Is that normal?

    • @jpdj2715
      @jpdj2715 3 года назад

      I'm not a pilot in any way, just enjoying the videos. It seems to me these are the fuel gauges of left and right tanks. With every move of the plane, the fuel moves in the tanks and this is reflected by the needles. I guess the needles are connected to some simple flotation devices which might be very reliable in the longer run. With modern tech, like ultrasonic empty space meters, it might be possible to reduce or get rid of this wobble, but that introduces more complexity and may reduce reliability.

  • @robertcary435
    @robertcary435 3 года назад +2

    You flew to Put In Bay, that is in Ohio I believe. 🙂

  • @Michael-fw9zx
    @Michael-fw9zx 3 года назад

    you should include the run ups also, you talk it through so well and its just as important as taking off. just saying

  • @triplethreatcga2358
    @triplethreatcga2358 3 года назад

    Kevin, you like flying so much, you should apply to United Airlines or Delta for an Airline Pilot's job.

  • @rizzeau
    @rizzeau 3 года назад +4

    Kinda surprised the traffic advisories don't recognize you're at field elevation and silence themselves!

    • @robertg5393
      @robertg5393 3 года назад

      You want to hear the traffic advisories so that you can get a mental picture of where traffic is and what is going on around the airfield.

  • @jbrown3547
    @jbrown3547 3 года назад

    Curious about the thought process going into purchasing a twin, and the C310, vs a single engine. Solely on peace of mind?

  • @johnwyoder
    @johnwyoder 3 года назад +1

    Kevin, when you state "fuel on the mains," I assume you are talking about the fuel currently feeding the engines is coming from the main fuel tanks in the wings, vs the wingtip tanks? Is that because fuel flow from the tip tanks could be affected by your bank angle on approach?

    • @rhkennerly
      @rhkennerly 3 года назад +1

      I don’t know which version 310 kevin has, but the 310 fuel system has been Byzantine at times. Not only can you pump fuel from the various tanks, you can also cross-feed from one side of the airplane to the other. This is normally done for trim purposes.
      High capacity fuel tanks are often baffled, as well. This keeps the fuel from building up momentum & sloshing quickly as the airplane changes attitude (most boats have baffles in the fuel tanks for the same reason. A half full tank of gas can hit the end of the tank hard enough to rip the tank off of its mounts otherwise). Some 310s have an always “on” fuel pump just to pump gas from forward of the baffle in the main tanks to the back of the tank, to keep fuel over the fuel sump in a steep descent.
      Best practices close to the ground is to have your fuel selector on the mains, left & right. Enroute, full wing tip tanks add a lot of momentum in roll & yaw. So a lot of 310 pilot do loads of fuel management switching & shunting fuel to empty the tuna tanks (& optional auxiliary tanks) first to ensure the mains are the fullest tanks on landing.
      More basic trainer-type aircraft fuel is either “off” or “on.” Sometimes there is an on/off for each side. The older the “complex” airplane, the more demanding the fuel management. Older deHaveland Beavers involved pumping gas around the airplane in flight with a hand pump. Often there were a half dozen small tanks to be managed, stashed all over the body, in addition to the mains. The idea was to keep fuel draining into the sump tank along the centerline, from which the engine drew it’s fuel.
      Here is the 310R fuel plan:
      www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/attachments/img_0401-jpg.54542/
      On studying this schematic further, it looks like the tip tanks are the “mains” on this model of 310. That’s not what I remember, but I’ve only been in one twice. And then only as “honorary” SIC. Come to think of it, it was an old tuna tank Sky King model. It may have been coal powered.

    • @johnwyoder
      @johnwyoder 3 года назад +1

      @@rhkennerly Wow, thanks for that detailed explanation. I see this diagram is for the 310R, whereas his is, I believe, the 310Q. May not make any difference, though.