Wow, thank you for sharing this, it is very helpful for us, that don’t know too much about either…it makes me want to read more/do a lot more research myself
Thank you for your detailed reply. The participants in this video should be ashamed of their lack of preparation for this discussion. I think they need to invite you next time!!
I don't want to be hyperbolic, but this video is similar to if a secular person read the ten commandments and then spoke as if they understood Christianity. CM is highly mischaracterized here. I've found some great value in your past content, but this video is not only a miss for me, it makes me question the validity of your other discussions.
Yes. I agree it has discredited them. I am.not a fan of their curriculum. It's workbooks and comprehension based literature guides, none of which are part of the classical tradition.
@@classicaleducationpodcastI came across a huge box of their curriculum at a library book sale. I've never seen anything more depressing in my life. It's a formula. Using that would absolutely crush the spirit of curiosity in any child.
It feels like you all really missed the essence of Charlotte Mason in this discussion. She wrote six volumes in her Home Education series, so simply going through her 20 principles really isn't enough to understand her philosophy. I don't even think you communicated her principles accurately. You almost describe her as a Victorian un-schooler, which is not the case. A Charlotte Mason education is very much aligned with Classical principles. The Commonplace here on RUclips is a great CM resource for anyone interested.
Entonces para qué escribió 20 principios si no serán suficientes para entender la filosofía. Con mucho respeto, te digo, me he dado cuenta que todos los defensores de la educación moderna parecen no ser honestos intelectualmente y finalmente parecen no aceptar que no han inventado nada nuevo. Es mejor aceptar que la mejor educación desde una mirada cristiana es aquella que tiene más de 2000 años en vez de 200.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372Mason’s philosophy isn’t 200 years old, though. Which is the entire point. She was using classical methods. Her 20 principles were written when she was older, after the war, as a summation of what she’d found to be true after an entire career. Some things she was doing were “modern” by victorian standards, because what she was doing was actually returning to classical methods using tools like narration. This is similar to how Erasmus and Aristotle would have been educated. Charlotte Mason is thoroughly classical in the classical sense of the word.
She would have been pretty against unschooling. She had things that should be taught as well as how they should be taught. She just didn’t believe in tabula rasa She believes in habit training which MP also has, they really didn’t study Charlotte Mason for this.
The clear lack of preparation for this episode is a mar on Memoria and frankly embarrassing. I hope they can respond to the criticism here with intellectual integrity and don’t just end up brushing this under the rug. Please do better!!
Hello, I read all 6 of Charlotte Mason's books about 20 years ago. I am about 12 minutes into your program. I don't consider myself a strict literalist, when it comes to Charlotte Mason; however, I find much worth in her work. Your initial characterization of Charlotte Mason is a far cry from the Charlotte Mason philosophy that I read about. She was diligently interested in formation through developing habits, which would carry children into adulthood. She urged parents/teachers to be exemplary examples, and constantly exhorted them to watch over the formation of children. Charlotte Mason had an understanding of the dignity of the human person, which, I believe, could have been taken right out of the pages of something written more recently, by John Paul II (one of her great strengths, though, hard to convey to someone who isn't 'a master teacher,' so to speak). Charlotte never left the children to themselves in terms of letting them choose their own learning materials. In fact, she insisted that they not be given what she called "twaddle." Today we might call it 'bad food, or books that are not good for kids/people (including, but not limited to an overdose of leveled readers (probably, unlike Charlotte Mason, I believe they can have a limited, though not exclusive place) and "broken books," to borrow a term from Oliver DeMille. Her use of copywork and narration are excellent means of formation, language development, the development of critical thinking skills, etc). She was by no means hands off, in her approach to education. And she understood the dangers of failing to strive to provide children with proper formation. She did; however, believe that students would learn more from the great minds that wrote great books, than from the potential busy-bodiness of teachers who might want to do what today, we would call micro-managing...so much more to unpack in just the first few statements that you have made in regards to Charlotte Mason's approach to education, but this should make clear the point I am trying to make. I am watching your video, because of an interest in both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education (and they do have very real points of contact). I am not necessarily advocating one approach over another. I just don't get the sense that you are demonstrating a thorough understanding of Charlotte Mason.
MP, please don't be afraid to recant, repent and interview someone knowledgeable such as Karen Glass, Brandy Vencel, Mystie Winckler, Autumn Kern, etc. They are all gracious women who would love to have a conversation about CM.
Actually, they did lie, as they made blatant and arrogant assertions, based on their preconceived notions, without reading her volumes to even understand her terms. Do not present yourself as an expert on what you do not understand, and did not attempt to.
It doesn't seem that a single person in this discussion has read a single book by or even about Charlotte Mason. Nearly every point was misrepresenting her philosophies. For true information about how Charlotte Mason education compares to classical education, read Consider This by Karen Glass. It's an easy read and highly illuminating. It's disheartening that these educators did not even take the time to educate themselves before purporting to "teach" us something. Very disappointed.
I respectfully disagree- her book on narration, Know and Tell, was what helped me understand enough to use this in our school & it has been extremely fruitful.
Disappointed deeply in this one. I have used MP and a CM approach for 20 years. We should be drawing on the good and true from across the classical educational sphere not slapping down strawmen. Commonplace House , Autumn Kern, Karen Glass, Classical Academic press, Circe Institute, Ravi Jain, Christopher Perrin, Jason Barney and so many more Christian classical educators today are working to build a culture of faith and wisdom for our children and firmly place Miss Mason rightfully amongst the educational philosophers best suited to help guide us with this monumental task. It is shameful to see the lack of research, insight and charity in this episode. Are we just competitive companies angling for sales or are we parents and teachers united to educate classically?
Y'all, I'm only 14 minutes in and this is a horrible understanding of Mason. I actually feel bad for the hosts. They don't know how much they are speaking out of turn. It would have been much better to interview Karen Glass or do a book review of Consider This.
Unless there is a follow-up episode that humbly recants, this episode is a thorough indictment on Memoria Press. I've read CM's volumes, Karen Glass's books on CM, and several books on CE. I've even taken a class on Norms and Nobility through Circe, so I believe I have a good grasp on both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education. I have used some MP materials to supplement our Ambleside Online education (I've been homeschooling for 12 years now using Charlotte's methods, and currently have children spanning kindergarten through 10th grade). I don't think we'll use MP anymore. Other curriculum sellers, such as Veritas Press, Simply Charlotte Mason, Circe, Classical Academic Press, and Roman Roads, appreciate Charlotte Mason's contributions to home education, and I will support those organizations over Memoria Press.
This was so disappointing to listen to. I feel like you guys did not put the effort necessary into discussing this subject. Your comments were completely out of context. Miss Mason was not an unschooler by any means. I am merely one year in to this world of classical education and have also explored many aspects of CM education, and I have to say that I feel that you guys have missed the mark on this episode. There is a lot to be respected about both learning styles! I don’t feel this was a fair assessment at all. I love all your podcasts and I am sure I have listened to almost every one now, and many of them numerous times. Memoria Press has changed and enhanced my life and the life of my children in incredible ways over the past year, but this is the first time I have come away incredibly disappointed after one of your podcasts. It felt like a mockery, and an immature discussion. Please revisit this topic with her principles discussed in context next time.
I agree. The immature nature of this discussion was appauling. Right at the beginning when the lady said she had to get these men in line, that put a sour taste in my mouth. She does not need to undermine the men sitting around her. That upset me right off the bat. On all points they clearly have not read Mason. They are describing unschooling. Mason is not unschooling whatsoever.
It is blatantly obvious that none of you have actually read Mason’s 6 volumes. Your “summary” of her 20 Principles is so far off the mark. This episode should never have seen the light of day.
I don’t like to leave comments, but I’m actually just so embarrassed that an organization I thought was incredibly knowledgeable just proved themselves otherwise. 😮 I thought the whole point of educating our children was to teach them to be able to have intelligent discourse and educated thoughts- not to just present information they clearly know nothing about (isn’t that the problem with modern society as a whole?!) I just hope young homeschooling families who watch this actually take the time to READ Charlotte Mason before forming uneducated opinions on her…
I stopped it halfway through because I was genuinely so embarrassed for you all that I couldn’t go on any further. Then my train-wreck curiosity got the better of me and I finished it. I can’t even be mad about the gross misrepresentation of Mason’s philosophies (and who she was as a person) because it’s all so ignorant that it’s laughable. Truly, anyone who has even cracked open one volume will be able to see how utterly unprepared and ill-equipped you all are to give this discussion any weight. As a homeschool mom of six for the last 23 years, I’ve been able to carve out time to read her volumes through multiple times. As education administration is (presumably?) your paid vocations, I’d think you do yourselves (and certainly anyone who comes to you for guidance) a great service by actually reading up on your topic before presenting your “expert” opinion. After all, isn’t that what you’ve taught your Rhetoric stage students to do?
Let’s discuss “War and Peace” next. I’ll go get my cliff notes and my graphic novel. Seriously, my flabbers are gasted. For such a reputable organization, this was mortifying. It was so cringe-worthy that I couldn’t even be outraged at the gross misrepresentation - I just felt embarrassed for the hosts in their ignorance. Apologies are necessary, MP. Your followers deserve better. Also, as others have mentioned, try contacting Karen Glass for an interview as “part 2,” if you guys want to do the right thing. True education should bring humility, not arrogance; let’s see the best in you.
This is a completely incorrect explanation of Charlotte Mason and her philosophy. Even the description on this video contains a number of inaccuracies. I would refer anyone who actually wants to know about Charlotte Mason to begin with Karen Glass' book Consider This.
I’m flabbergasted that a group of adults who consider themselves educators would choose to record themselves having a conversation about a topic they haven’t taken the time to read about. I agree with previous comments, it’s better to answer the question “How does CM compare with classical?” by saying “I don’t know. I haven’t read her work extensively” than what is presented here. Is this a selling point of your curriculum or an opportunity to gain traffic on your podcast? Either way, it’s quite telling. Good luck with posting Part 2 of this conversation.
@@ShawnaRei the point is to either claim her (as “part of” a classical education) or to reject her (which any thinking person would find it impossible to do, because she is/was BRILLIANT). Classical folks are in a pickle (it’s fun to watch them dill with it)… Because if they reject her, they are partially discrediting themselves, because what’s not to love about real books, real art, real music, etc…. But if they claim her, they also partially discredit themselves bc they have to admit that many of their methods are wrong, because hers are in direct opposition to theirs. It’ll be interesting to watch them try to wriggle their way out of this. I agree with you, though. Why compare apples to oranges?
Oh wow. I'm shocked that a group of classical educators would sit and discuss something that they've clearly never read. Charlotte Mason is not "child-led learning," and to summarize it as such is laughable. Perhaps this panel should go back and read the six volumes Mason wrote on education before showing their ignorance further.
I've been trying to decide between Classical Education and Charlotte Mason and i've been finding out that CM is classical. The way they're describing CM does not seem accurate. (See the youtube channel The Commonplace) BUT the way they are describing CE (Memoria Press) in this video is convincing me to use CM (as i understand it, not the way they describe it)
CM is not classical. It contains anything positive there is about CE, contains lots CE doesn’t even touch, and does not contain the negatives of CE. So the real question is not “Is CM classical?” The real question is, “Is Classical Ed CM?” And the answer is, decidedly, “No.”
24:29 no she doesn't disagree with that. She writes extensively about the importance of habit training. AND she was not simply a great teacher, she was a teacher of teachers. this snippet of the conversation alone demonstrates that the panelists not only did not read any of her work, but also did no research on the person of CM. Why? Why bother to do this? If your customers are constantly asking about CM, why not actually prepare to address the topic? Just before this point in the conversation this was said, “Most of your employed life you’ll be doing exactly what is expected of you and required of you, and we start that training, which is a training in virtue, with young students”. Is this content the kind of content Memoria Press expects of their employees? Is this the level of effort you are expected to put into your work? Each podcast participant here is a public facing employee of an organization that prides itself in working to develop the character and mind of the next generation. An organization that proports to value virtue, discipline, and excellence. Yet, none of those values are demonstrated in the work that was put into this episode. It’s a shame. The effort put into this point to a lack of respect for the author and her work. It also disrespects the parents and educators who reach out to Memoria Press regarding the topic. As was said at the beginning, 5:55 they get asked all the time and they've put it off. They should have continued to put it off until they could put in the effort and prepare to have an intelligent conversation about the topic.
They are attacking a Charlotte that doesn't exist, a straw man, then they go on to say things that they are in agreement with, things that are more in line with what Charlotte actually said. This is sad. I expect much more from you, Memoria Press. Charlotte's Motto is Education is an ATMOSPHERE, a DISCIPLINE, and a LIFE.
Wow. I consider myself a strong supporter of classical education, have taught in a classical school, and I send my own children to a hybrid classical school, and we use some memoria press materials in our home. I enjoy some aspects of Charlotte Mason and I agree with a lot of what she had to say in her volumes, but I’m choosing a different path for my kids than what she would recommend. However, this video is a huge mischaracterization on almost every aspect of what y’all “think” she said. This is easy to prove because she wrote so much down that you all spoke to but had not read. For an organization that centers around reaching a point of learning where you can effectively argue a point, this was pretty terrible. There are actually valid arguments against Charlotte mason’s methods and even more valid arguments about how her methods are implemented, packaged and sold in the modern day, but this is a terrible and intellectually lazy analysis. Amazing. You guys are actually even un-selling memoria press with this one, because I’d truly hate for my own student to speak publicly on a topic of which they were so massively uninformed. Sometimes silence is a stronger argument… it definitely is stronger than whatever this was.
Absolutely. I've read CM's volumes, Karen Glass's books on CM, and several books on CE. I've even taken a class on Norms and Nobility through Circe, so I believe I have a thorough grasp on both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education. I have used some MP materials to supplement our Ambleside Online education (I've been homeschooling for 12 years now, and currently have children spanning kindergarten through 10th grade). I don't think we'll use MP anymore. I like other curriculum sellers, like Veritas Press, Simply Charlotte Mason, Circe, and Roman Roads. All of those sellers appreciate Charlotte Mason's contributions to home education, and I will support those organizations over Memoria Press from now on.
If Mitchell was the one leading the discussion, I think he did a poor job of preparation. I agree, Mason is difficult to explain & it is easy to make her sound like an unschooler or “just read books all the time”. I also agree that putting her in the historical context is extremely important to understand her principles as a reaction to the German schools (she says this herself). However, she is decidedly NOT an unschooler, the lessons are NOT student led, & there are still HIGH expectations of students. I’d suggest having further discussion about the differences of Mason & Classical models with Karen Glass, Ambleside Online, Simply Charlotte Mason, or Delectable Education Podcast. DE Podcast has gone through Vol 6 & discussed it as well. I would recommend Mitchell begins listening to it.
I don’t think Mitchell was leading the discussion. I think it was meant to be the 4 of them discussing their thoughts and we get to overhear it. It was never meant to be a thorough overview.
"They need the structure. They need the order." This is not a counterpoint to Charlotte Mason 's ideas. She is very adamant about structure and habit training!
Cringing in secondhand embarrassment. This is like watching a child give a book report on a book he didn't actually read.
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Watching this made me cringe inside. I honestly used to think the same thing that the hosts do about Charlotte Mason and a CM style of education. I told so many people that it was an inadequate form of education and was very prideful about the fact that I only used full Memoria Press cores in our homeschool. The Lord, in His mercy, convicted me of my pride and allowed me to see what an actual CM education looked like which pushed me to read her own words and study the philosophy deeply. I can say that this video is a total mischaracterization of her work and thoughts as an educator. These days, I’m a proud CM style homeschooling mom of 6 and have seen tremendous growth in my children’s lives and an increase in their wisdom and understanding. We actually do still use some MP products - I love their phonics, spelling (some of my kids need a spelling program even though we are CM style) and geography. We use many of their book recommendations and I recommend the curriculum to those looking for workbooks with classical subject matter. I truly hope the hosts will put aside their arrogance and actually read a volume by Charlotte Mason. They don’t have to love it or agree with her, but they shouldn’t misrepresent her.
What an epic misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason. Goodness. Absolutely embarrassing to watch Classical educators sit down to discuss a topic having NOT actually read the source material. If your brand of education encourages using "selections" and "summaries" to deem yourself "knowledgeable" on a subject to the point of speaking "intelligently" on that subject, you not only missed CM (by a longshot), you missed the entire classical approach you yourselves are marketing. Even if the goal of this presentation was to prop up MP by poking holes in CM, you should have come to the table with a deeper understanding. Because even those that are surface level familiar with Charlotte Mason could see through the gaping holes in your arguments. This is a bad look. Yikes.
9:16 the speakers are sharing common misunderstandings about Charlotte Masons approach to education in particular and children in general. I too would be frustrated if I misunderstood Mason the way they characterize her method. “Child are born persons” is the foundational principle for educating a child and here they see it as a romantic ideal (9:37). It’s funny, because Mason and these educators agree on many things- the child has dignity, rightly ordered authority and obedience are essential to the education of children. What struck me the most is that the difference between modern classical educators and a Mason classical education is that Mason is constantly bringing us away from a utilitarian view of education and the child and into honoring the dignity of the child, the teacher, the family (see Home Education.) 26:53 One speaker shares an anecdote about his mother seeing “everything in the house as part of his education.” Here Mason agrees. Then he explained how when he says education he means useful to academics ie Mathematics or linguistic games. Mason wants us to see that we are educating the whole child: mind, body, and soul. (As seen in the use of Knowledge of God, Knowledge of Man, Knowledge of the universe categories) In historically classical and a Mason education there are parts of the child that we will endeavor to educate that may not be useful in the sense it will be directly tied to earning a living - but it will be beneficial to the child in that his affections will be rightly ordered toward what is true, good, and beautiful. Take the example made about nature - “You can’t just drop ‘em in a forest they’ll grow up there…”- (17:55) this is not what Mason is saying in regards to getting outside in nature. She wants to bring children into a relationship with nature -as in Gods creation- because it is their heritage and our children and society is exceedingly poor in knowing and possessing nature. You can’t love what you don’t know. Is there a practical and job-oriented end goal for a child learning about all the flora and fauna in her neighborhood? Perhaps not in a STEM world exactly, but there is a benefit to the child as a person. We can all acknowledge the healing effects of creation on a weary soul. This video was a disappointment and was a huge disservice to the homeschooling community. The clarity we received is that Mason is difficult to understand for modern minds because she pulls us so far outside our usual way of seeing ourselves, our children and education. I encourage those who are interested in Mason to read her for yourself or at least read Karen Glass.
I’m very interested in using with my 6yr old , especially after reading your comment and others below, which volume should I start with? I understand there are six volumes.
@@joycherrick Along side Home Education , Ourselves is so important in the modern era...I recommend it to families of all educational philosophies because it is the perfect poetic knowledge primer of living a virtuous life and understanding the classical view of what man is meant to be and how he is meant to live.
These hosts don't know what they are talking about here. Their cluelessness about Miss Mason makes them blind guides. The whole thing is full of staw man arguments and just plain ignorance of her methods. And plenty of arrogance: they are trying to discuss something they admit they haven't read, and thus can't *actually* speak to. They read only the preface, but think they understand the book. The guy on the left at 20:45 says, "You can't argue against that [the Gradgrindian school] and think you've struck a blow at classical education." Similarly, you can't reject the picture these 4 paint of Charlotte Mason, and think you've struck a blow at her: they are so painfully ignorant on the subject, that it would be impossible for them to say anything that would help you gain an understanding of what she's about. Try reading Consider This by Karen Glass, or visiting the AfterThoughts blog by Brandy Vencil. Or actually reading Miss Mason's 6th volume that they claim to be discussing. I use Charlotte Mason's methods because they are the most beautiful and accessible version of a classical education I have found. Ironically, I don't care for the Memoria Press Latin materials we have because they are easily the least classical, most Gradgrindian of anything we've tried. I was so excited when we got them, but having used them a while... I'm not at all impressed. Fortunately, I've learned to supplement in ways that take the edge off the grind. But my kids just detest those books, and I can't blame them: no ideas, no story, no life --just grinding away at memorization. For *years*. It's pretty audacious of them to say they reject Gradgrind (they don't), and then spend their time tearing down a method that actually does reject the grind, and actually is effective at teaching children to love learning for its own sake.
The conversation began awkwardly, and I don’t think you all were prepared for the discussion and it seems you knew that. I am hopeful a part 2 results in either including people who have read and thought deeply about her volumes or that you will do so beforehand.
Also when she's talking about an artificial environment and at a child's level--- she is arguing against Montessori who insisted in creating a miniature artificial, child size world.
@karenglass9454 wrote an excellent book called Consider This comparing Charlotte Mason and classical education. I would really like to see Memoria have the humility to admit they missed the mark here and perhaps interview Karen on their podcast to correct the many misrepresentations of Charlotte Mason that they presented on this podcast.
"Charlotte Mason probably never read Emile". 🤦♀️🤦♀️ Well, yes she did. In fact, she thoroughly addressed Rousseau in her writings. Which you would know if any of you had read her works 😬😬This is so embarrassing to listen to.
@@merrittfamily1269I remain flabbergasted and appalled that they would publish this conversation. But their curriculum is quite opposite of classical. It's workbooks and comprehension-based. They are not part of the Tradition of classical--if you read the fathers of the classical tradition. I am pretty sure Socrates would not approve of workbooks. 😂
If I were to judge all of MP on this video they way they judged CM on their perceptions of the 20 principles without having any real knowledge of Charlotte Mason I would say they have no business discussing education much less publishing and selling educational materials. Shameful.
It’s like one of you said, “Let’s record ourselves pretending we know what we’re talking about.” Please correct this insult to your listener’s intelligence.
They should never have had a discussion about something they know nothing about and I’m a bit horrified that they said the CSR answer this question on a regular basis.
Thank you for making it clear that (a) you haven't read Charlotte Mason's writings and (b) that Memoria Press is not a resource I can use to guide new-to-homeschooling families.
I’m ~1/3 of the way through this discussion and it is absolutely EXCRUCIATING to watch. It’s obvious that you haven’t read any of Charlotte’s writing and are completely misinterpreting the 20 principles because you don’t understand the premise under which she wrote her principles. You’re speaking about her educational philosophy as though it leans toward unschooling, whereas it is very much the opposite.
I love and use MP, and agree with their educational philosophy. But as a former CM devotee, I have to respectfully agree with the other commenters here that this episode does not present an accurate representation of Mason’s philosophy. She absolutely did not advocate giving children freedom to do and be whatever they wished. She had a definite, structured curriculum, and high expectations. I do agree that she was a romanticist, and I disagree with her on the nature of the child (and don’t get me started on her method of reading instruction). There is much to criticize (and admire) about Mason, but this episode criticized a straw woman.
I wish this would have been an honest and informed discussion. Charlotte Mason is indeed classical. For those desiring better understanding see anything from the Classical Education podcast and website by University of Dallas. Commonplace Mom and Karen Glass Consider This and Norms and Nobility will get you started in this discussion.
This is embarrassing. I think this is what it would look like if I assigned my student something to read and then they pretended to read it only to deliver a Narration based not on the assignment but on what there immature mind preconceived might have been in the chapter. Of course my students don’t do this, because they are intelligent and disciplined students of CM’s philosophy. The way this whole panel engaged the conversation of CM philosophy is exactly why we need classical education today. I just didn’t think I’d see it from a classical publisher. You don’t have to agree with CM. But read, listen, and do better.
Please, please address what some of the commenters have said here. This podcast was a misrepresentation of what Charlotte Mason actually said and is an embarrassment. It sounds like (and I could be wrong) you all read ONLY the 20 principles and then decided to comment on them. To be honest, I think many of her principles would be worded differently if she were writing in 2024. This is why it’s important to read her actual words. Please go back and read the 6th volume (or just do what I am doing and use Brandy Vencel’s Start Here reading plan, which is a journey through her 20 principles with reading assignments from Mason’s volumes for each principle). Just like it is wrong to review a book based on reading the clif notes, this is wrong.
Charlotte Mason is Classical in the broad sense. Most of this was straw man uninformed talk. Of course there are practical and philosophical differences between neo-Classical and Charlotte Mason but this wasn't a great exploration of those. Have you looked at her school schedules to see what her students did? Looked at the day-to-day of modern Charlotte Mason homeschoolers? I think the examples chosen (like whether or not you should fight in front of your kids) aren't at all what Charlotte Mason was speaking to when she said not to dumb down a child's environment. Her comments were a disagreement with Montessori who had tiny child-version everything for the kids. So you're taking an incomplete understanding and a non-educational example (not that her work never addressed parenting and the home life) and making it seem like Charlotte Mason would say it's OK or good to fight in front of your kids? A better examples is that CM would prefer real handicraft tools instead of craft 'kits' made for kids that do most of the work for you. Also a lot of this discussion seems to paint CM as not just different from neo-classical, but self-contradictory and non-sensical. Such as the idea that we have a classroom but kids do the teaching being confused or inconsistent. Please try to understand: having a classroom and choosing, assigning and scheduling the materials does not mean that the child then just absorbs it with the teacher in 'control' (that word was used a lot interestingly). All kids will take slightly different things from those materials and that's normal and OK. That's what Charlotte Mason is saying. So I think Charlotte Mason would not agree with modern lesson plans that specify down to the minutiae what students will 'take' from the lesson. We cannot digest the food for them, nor can we force them to digest it in a certain way. It's OK if you don't see it that way, but trying to present something you haven't really studied as confused and self-contradictory comes across as condescending. I hope you can do better in Part 2. Maybe address some of the practical differences and the philosophical reasons behind those. For example, children making a book of centuries from people they have read and learned about vs. learning/memorizing a timeline of people they haven't learned about yet. People have different reasons for doing it each way. As a background, yes we have used CM for 11 years now.
Wow. That was a completely sham analysis. In the final few minutes, it was acknowledged that CM means that the teacher can teach and the student must be engaged for actual learning to take place. This comment negated most of the negative talk that went on about CM being a child-led philosophy for the first 34 minutes. I think what happens is that some of the most popular and vocal people calling themselves followers of CM are, in fact, unschoolers who have about as much knowledge of CM as these podcasters. Yet, they claim the name CM and her reputation is tied more closely to them than to those who actually read her writings and interact seriously with her ideas, taking into consideration her cultural and historical context. Please do better. Also, you're promoting a servile education in much of this conversation with all the talk of being prepared for the boring real world. That is a very un-Christian view of the world, its beauty and our privilege in it as image bearers.
Wow! Please read Charlotte Mason. This is a complete misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason’s philosophy. The sad thing is that you are giving false information to young parents that are trying to figure out how to educate their children. As a homeschool parent of 25 years that tried so many different curriculums and looked into so many philosophies I can tell you that Charlotte mason is a treasure for any teacher. You will not regret studying her and your children will greatly benefit. I think MP needs to acknowledge publicly their lack of preparation for this episode. If you truly care about your audience, especially young parents, admit that maybe you are not experts on charlotte mason and shouldn’t be advising or acting like you know what you are talking about in this instance.
Charlotte Mason IS classical. And having now listened to your episode, I have a feeling that you completely misunderstood and misrepresented her. The 20 principles are like reading prompts, they're meant to be memory aids of what you have already read in her volumes. The insistence on formation/habits/paideia is very pronounced in Charlotte Mason education. She talks about laying the table of great knowledge before your children and let them feast. But YOU lay the table, you choose the knowledge. And obedience and good habits are fundamental to a successful education.
@@SkylarWhitmirepues mal. No es bíblico ni clásico decir que el maestro es un guía o un amigo. El maestro es alguien dotado de la suficiente sabiduría para ser tu instructor. “INSTRUYE al niño en su camino…”, no dice “GUÍA…” . Tampoco como padre eres amigo de tus hijos, eres su PADRE.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372the quote is itself a quote and a reference to Alexander Pope and books, not a blithe relinquishing of parental duty and Bible principles. It has to be read in context.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372 in the Hebrew the root word ‘hanak’ means both those things. I guess what you’re misunderstanding may come from your lack of knowledge on what the words guide and instruct mean. Depending on the conditions they are the same thing and those words are use interchangeably often in scripture.
I was wondering if there would be only one or two comments disagreeing with the substance of this episode…clearly this overwhelming flood of critiques is onto something.
As many others have said, the ignorance of this panel is beyond disgraceful. I think the comments have covered everything. I just want to say that this discussion has discredited MP in my eyes to such a degree, that I will never purchase another MP product again.
As a frequent listener to the podcast I am highly disappointed in this episode. I echo the recommendations of having a conversation with Autumn Kern and Karen Glass.
Did yall just mansplain Charlotte Mason, based on general impressions, to an audience that has been reading and studying her for decades 😂 oops. Definitely get Karen Glass on for genuine research, and we'll all tune in and boost that. We will cheer that like mad.
I get what you're saying, and it's a good point. But the word "mansplain". 😬😬 I very much doubt that most people who use that word would find "womansplain" or "blacksplain" or "gaysplain" anything even approaching acceptable: it's not any different to do it to men.
Please invite someone who is an expert on Charlotte Mason on your show and interview her or him. Charlotte Mason developed an education method that was more attainable for the average child and that could be replicated at home. As wonderful as a true Classical education is, it is not for every child. Charlotte Mason method is wonderful in that it exposes children to the beautiful and true things and develops a life long love of learning.
I would encourage you to read her volumes and talk with people that have studied this methodology for years. I think you will like it more than you think ❤.
I feel like this was an attempt to get people to choose MP over “Charlotte Mason” instead of doing research and seeing how similar they were. Only Martin did research.
Memoria Press, based on the overwhelming feedback here, you should have a good representative of the CM pedagogy on your show to explain what CM actually is. It’s only the right thing to do.
As a CM educator of 6 children, I feel sorry for you that you made assumptions regarding a CM education instead of having someone join your discussion that’s knowledgeable.
You all are experts in the wonderful classical homeschool program you all produce. People like Karen Glass and Cindy Rollins and Wendi Capehart are experts in implementing Charlotte Mason's methods (see Karen's comments above). I really enjoy Classical Etc. and have used Memoria Press materials for years. Just like you ask Andrew Pudewa to the show when talking about IEW it would be lovely to see you reach out to the Ambleside Online community and its board/developers for much better understanding of Charlotte Mason and her methods.
Oh, Charlotte Mason is not child-led! I have seen this used so many times to describe her philosophy and it's just not accurate. CM is a part of the classical tradition! She herself was classically educated!
Have you read anything by Art Middlekauf of the Charlotte Mason Institute? He is somewhat of an expert and believes Charlotte Mason was a progressive educator and that a CM education is a child-centered one.
@@capsela2 That only shows that even 'experts' can be wrong and we would do well to return to primary sources and critically assess them with our own God given wisdom.
I often enjoy your discussions. This one I find wanting. I’m listening and not convinced you have understood her work beyond the bullet point principles.
Probably not much, this is a classical podcast based on a school that writes their own classical curriculum that’s implemented in their schools. It is not CM based.
'Not encroaching upon their person,' translates to - if their calling is not to be a ballerina, don't force them into those shoes. Charlotte Mason differentiated between the essential; obedience to a parent who tells you not to run into the street, or mistreat your little sister, for instance; and the non-essential: attempting to form a child's interests and aptitudes according to the design of the parent/adult, rather than according to God's plan for them, as revealed in their natural abilities, interests, etc.,
Or if one child tends towards more literal step by step narrations and another tends towards more reflective narrations, we can help each of them grow and expand but we don't need to or want to stamp their own voice out of their narrations.
Wow, this is so far off. You should actually read the books. All of them.This is not children teaching, it isn’t unschooling, it is a feast of an education that is deep and rich. I will never be a purist but I think she treated children more as their own people but guided them to be good people with wisdom and a lot of experiences beyond books. Have you looked at or done a year of a Charlotte Mason education? It is structured. It is probably much more learning than a classical experience. No, I am sure it is, no probably about it, because it instills a love for learning. It is less busy work, but rigorous, and teaches more than just memorization and regurgitation. And trust me there is a lot of memorization. There is also so much enrichment. I don’t agree with every single thing Charlotte Mason and as I said will never be a purist, but her methods are so much better than a classical education ever will be. And if someone is on the fence, this is NOT the video to watch to seal your decision.
I recommend a face to face of MP panel with CM panel (any of those mentioned above would do). We are not against discussing CM pros and cons. It’s not a cult. We invite discussion. The question would be… is there a reason why you wouldn’t want to address CM people face to face?
Honestly as a regular viewer of this podcast I don’t really care about CM and their regular subscribers probably don’t either. Most of these comments are coming from CM message boards!
I wondered why MP curriculum users would even care about this question. After listening to this panel I now wonder if in fact CM methods are cutting into MP's bottom line. I mean, these are smart people. Clearly not educated in CM philosophy, but I'm guessing they never intended to be so.
If there is one quote by Mason that essentially undermines the claims made about her educational philosophy in this video, it's probably this one: “If [our pupils] are so taught that knowledge delights them, they will choose companions who share that pleasure. In this way princes are trained; they must know something of botany to talk with botanists, of history to meet with historians; they cannot afford to be in the company of scientists, adventurers, poets, painters, philanthropists or economists, and themselves be able to do no more than ‘change the weather and pass the time of day’; they must know modern languages to be at home with men of other countries, and ancient tongues to be familiar with classical allusions. Such considerations rule the education of princes, and every boy has a princely right to be brought up so that he may hold his own in good society, that is, the society of those who ‘know.’” - (Towards a Philosophy of Education)
Are these people the owners of Memoria Press? This is astonishingly ignorant. How prideful to give a criticism of someone you have never taken the time to hear out. Is this how they teach Memoria Press students to behave? I'm thankful that Charlotte Mason explicitly tells children not to behave like this in her volume addressed to older children. Check out volume 4's chapters on Justice, beginning at chapter 12. They would be instructive for you. This is shameful.
I agree with you! I have a friend who actually taught at the MP school. She was reprimanded and asked to leave when she veered away from their workbooks to have deeper discussions with the students!She now has her PhD in Bible and has her children in a lovely CM classical school. Her kids hated the MP school and are now thriving.
@@mama_knitterI am not on message boards or social media. I am a podcaster but don't have a social media account. I am the founder of "classical education" on Facebook but I gave ownership to Jeffery Bond last year. I don't have time or care for message boards. This interview is astonishingly embarrassing for them. They clearly have no idea what they are talking about and should be embarrassed to talk about someone that they've never actually read. I rarely post comments even on RUclips because I cannot stand the drama. But this issue about Mason is so wrong that I couldn't stay quiet.
As a previous Charlotte Mason purist and reader of her books every year for the past eight years I'm floored with the backlash you are receiving- Did this get shared on an Ambleside or Mere motherhood group or something? This is completely on par with today's interpretation and the pitfalls of that interpretation in the Charlotte Mason world. Wow. Really surprised that the bulk of these comments are so hostile.
I've read nearly all of the comments and you are the second person to say this. It is good for folks to respond to ignorance with indignation at times. MP has rightly earned a place of trust, and this podcast episode hurt a lot of people's trust because it was so off, and largely based in ignorance-- they were attacking windmills in a quixotic quest to fell a philosophy they obviously don't understand. I think it's okay to call that what it is, and not mince words just because we like other stuff they do.
@TheCarnivore5247 it's bizarre to expect so much. For starters they specify at the very beginning that they will be going over CM's principals. When we combine this with the fact that they are a classical company selling very traditional classics materials I feel it's a large ask to expect.... What? A huge dive into Charlotte Mason? Deep dialogue into her philosophy? I fault MP in one area-that they felt the need to respond to this request at all. It's a completely different philosophy. Period. I fault everyone else on here for a ridiculous expectation of a deep philosophical discussion on a methodology that a company does not even line up with. Again. Bizarre ask.
@TheCarnivore5247 you say it's good for folks to respond with indignation sometimes and you are correct. Unfortunately though it is not healthy for a community to make a special appearance onto another community's podcast to rant against their thoughts. The fact is this video has almost 3x the viewing of any of their other recent videos tells me that there are many commenters that are not usually here. And again, MP is not wrong! I and many others feel this way about today's CM community and her books! Unfortunately when anything is said, however, the likes of Karen Glass or whomever has to try and shut it down with a bunch of put downs. A disagreement is OK. MP doesn't agree with CM (gasp) and you don't agree with their interpretation (gasp, gasp). We have a right to express this.
I think these 4 should have read through the volumes first and really studied them before bringing a video to the public. They clearly don't have a true understanding of Charlotte Mason. And I use both Classical and Charlotte Mason methods and principles in my homeschool.
Highly disappointed in this misrepresentation of Mason and her philosophy. As others here have stated it is clear that beyond the list of principles, most of those in this discussion have not read her actual writings. I just wrote my master's thesis on Plato's ideals of education in his Republic and compared his writings to others including St. Augustine and CM- there is much more overlap than what is hinted at here. I think this video has been a disservice to Memoria Press itself as any family following a CM model that may have enjoyed some of their resources will now probably not consider purchasing them- myself included!
I see there’s a lot of backlash here. I fully understand why people are upset, however, memoria press, in my opinion has very solid curriculum. I do think the Charlotte Mason is widely misunderstood. I think a lot of it has to do with Charlotte Mason inspired curriculum that is making it look like how they are portraying it. Understanding her methods is quite hard to understand. I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I do think they deserve some grace. They have said in their 2nd episode that they will revisit this topic and I think we all can appreciate that.
I mean, if they admitted that Charlotte's philosophy and methods were legit classical instead of straw-manning, then nobody would buy all those workbooks they publish... 😉 MP & VP et al have done a lot of good work making a (neo)classical education accessible to many home- and cottage-schools that aren't ready to let go of the checklist and workbook model, but they need to stay in their lane, especially if they're not going to (apparently) bother to read even just Volume 6 or include a CM expert like Karen Glass in their discussion.
So which CM company publishes Latin and Greek again? Because there is NO classical education without at least Latin (and really Greek should be taught.) If there is no Latin, CM is just as neo-classical as the others you mentioned. Add in the lack of the progym and CM is even more not classical.
And your "expert" was just as wrong about Cardinal Newman in her book as these MP podcasters were about Mason. So should we throw out everything she says and writes because she was ignorant of Cardinal Newman? What else was inaccurate in her book? And I will tell you she was treated far more kindly by Catholic CM homeschoolers about her inaccuracies than I am seeing by CMers on this discussion board.
I'm not 100 percent sure why you are railing against Mrs. Glass, but you could go engage with the post she made on this very thread if you are so concerned with her proposed ignorance on Cardinal Newman, instead of vainly berating other folks about your perspective of that.
Mrs. Glass conceded in a blog post in September of 2015 (I am pretty sure that is when it was, sometime that fall) that she got Cardinal Newman wrong after doing further research (like actually reading his writings). She may be an expert on CM but she certainly wasn't one on Cardinal Newman. Anyone who has actually read her book and writings of Cardinal Newman know she got him wrong in the book. It is as obvious as this group of podcasters getting Charlotte Mason wrong. Charity goes a long way...
The only reason I even brought this up is because the CM mob going after Memoria Press is touting Mrs. Glass as an expert on CM and the classical tradition. However, Mrs. Glass did the SAME EXACT THING as Memoria Press. And it was just as offensive to us as y'all are offended now! Only then we turned the other cheek rather than being absolutely vicious. The charity shown to her has not been shown to Memoria Press.
This was so disappointing. As an avid listener to this podcast and a Charlotte Mason Classical educator you have really missed the mark on this. Really expected one of you at least to have read one of her books or a book about her writings. There are plenty of great suggestions in other comments. Please read and come back with another episode becasue you've got it so so wrong here.
I'm only 8 minutes in. I was hoping to listen to a different perspective on the CM method and learn something, but the constant banter and sarcasm is exhausting. Not sure I can manage to listen to the whole thing.
Well, this is incredibly disappointing to watch. I’m sad for the amount of false information being spread. It’s very clear that you guys have not even read her books. I do hope that you read them and release a video where you fix the false claims made here. Making up falsehoods to try to dissuade a person from choosing a style of learning is horrifying and shows a lack of virtue.
Wow. The second hand embarrassment for these four is crippling. I have been involved in classical education for the better part of twenty years and also have read widely from Mason’s work. This is a poor representation of both, of the spirit of inquiry which should mark Classical Education and of Mason’s pedagogy itself. What a circus this is. What overweening pride this comes across as.
This was very badly done. One of the commentators specifically noted the importance of context, but none of the 4 seem to understand the context of Charlotte Mason's mindset. Please read any of her many volumes before continuing this conversation. There are certainly things about which we could criticize her, but y'all seem to simply misrepresent her entire ideal.
I enjoy listening to the podcast, however, I think this one missed the mark. Susan Wise Bauer’s Well Trained Mind Podcast does a much better analysis from a pro-classical perspective. I’m unsure if they simply read the list of 20 principles or dug deeper into her volumes and the PNEU. Many classical curriculums and modern Charlotte Mason curriculums use similar rigorous classical book lists, emphasize a deep understanding of history, memory work, development habits, and a love/ respect for God. There are also modern Charlotte Mason curriculums, such as Mater Amabilis, that use Memoria Press curriculum resources and teach Latin. She was not an unschooler, as the picture they’re painting of her. Ultimately it’s good to have this dialogue, and I’m far from a Charlotte Mason purist or expert, but I don’t believe this was an accurate assessment for those beginning to learn about Charlotte Mason. However, I do look forward to listening to your dialogue in Part 2.
This was frustrating to listen to to say the least. I'm surprised they did not research the philosophy adequately, I have always heard such good things about Memoria Press. The amount of time's I said out loud "that's exactly what she is saying!".
I was excited to see this video show up in my feed. I love some of the materials from Memoria Press, and sometimes walk the line between Charlotte Mason and a more "Classical" approach in some subjects. The two approaches are very similar in many ways, and so I was interested in a nuanced discussion of the finer distinctions. Was this supposed to be a video comparing Classical with CM though, or comparing Classical with what people think about CM? I absolutely agree that there are things CM got wrong, and I do things differently than she did. But I take Charlotte Mason at her own words, not what others say about her. I didn't "learn" about her from CM purists, or from any specific, rather vocal curriculums. I learned about her philosophy from her own writings. And I would definitely not consider myself a Charlotte Mason (-ish) homeschooler if she actually taught the things addressed in this video.
This is biased with many fallacies. I like some of your products and like “mixing” with CM because all classical isn’t the best fit for my child. Each philosophy can compliment one another well, but with this airing, I think I’ll look elsewhere for any classical materials.
Charlotte Mason is classical, that's what is so absurd about this panel discussion. It is, however, different from a neo-classical education which has renamed itself "classical." The Five Flavors of Homeschooling video calls Neo-classical "classical" and Charlotte Mason by her name and explains the differences succinctly.
I’m not a purest when it comes to either classical or CM. I will however, state that while MP may not have shed proper light on Charlotte. Sadly based on the the numerous blogs, books, and media from others who claim CM I feel like MP hit the nail on the head for Modern interpretations.
That’s like saying based on checking out the most popular classical co-op network we are going to explain Classical education. I would think most serious classical educators would not appreciate that kind of flippancy. They went to Instagram accounts instead of Ambleside online or Charlotte Mason schools. They went to hash tags instead of her volumes or experts. Shoddy.
Exactly right. It’s because no one READS anymore. People think these 4 second (or less) sound bites are enough for them to be informed. CM is almost impossible to summarize or explain. You just have to read it for yourself FROM THE SOURCE-not someone else’s interpretation. That’s why it’s Classic Literature in and of itself! It takes SO LONG to digest. I think that’s why those of us who have been studying it for years/decades are so aggrieved. How could anyone do this??? It takes So. Long. for her philosophy to seep in… because it’s DEEP! And WIDE! To be reduced to this ^ is an absolute abomination.
@@ashleyapplebanana an interesting thing to note: when you get a job at a bank or working with money they show what REAL money is. There are so many ways to create imitations that they only focus on the truth. These people are experts in classical education. They don’t need to be experts in CM to understand like many of us that she doesn’t fit the mold.
Well, that was a train wreck. In the words of Nora from Pete’s Dragon, “There’s room for everyone in this world…” Just let CM people be. Quit trying to encompass us under your “umbrella.” It’s clear that classical education people are threatened and want to either compete with or claim CM. How bout neither? Y’all do you. Let us do us. This episode was a fear-based grab for attention. You can’t keep convincing people that you know more than they do if you don’t even read. Please spare us a Part 2.
LOL I think you have that backwards. It wasn't that many years ago that no CM purist would have dreamed of calling themselves classical educators. There were many discussions at the AO boards about it. This reinvention of CM as classical is barely 10 years old. So no, I don't think that classical educators who have 2000 years of pedagogy behind them are trying to steal Charlotte Mason ideas.
I live in California and I have a 7- and 2-year-old. I’m from Brazil, and my husband is from Italy; English is our second language. I am currently seeking a classical education. Last year, I tried to implement CM with my oldest, but unfortunately, it did not work for us. After reading some of the comments, it looks like you need to have a very deep understanding of CM philosophy. Unfortunately, I don’t have this much time to go deeply. I am grateful for discovering this channel a few months ago, as it allows me to have a comprehensive understanding of classical education. Thank you so much.
There are also amazing podcasts and RUclips channels to make Charlotte Mason a lot easier to understand 🙂 And you can enjoy both! I believe Charlotte Mason is broadly classical. If it's not for you that's fine too, but I'd encourage anyone interested to keep implementing elements of Charlotte Mason as they learn from resources like Simply Charlotte Mason, Ambleside Online, Autumn Kern on YT, Brandy Vencel, Karen Glass, Karen Andreola and many others.
This is the problem with today's Charlotte Mason in the US as a whole! It's a complete moving target. Any question or nay saying you have in regard to her philosophy will be met with "you really need to read her books".
@@anonymous1984y Well this is a little extreme though don't you think? I mean if you're going to critique something you have to have a base understanding of what you're talking about. It's like anyone who criticizes the Bible and Christianity when they've never even read the Bible. I think it's pretty reasonable to at least read her books.
@tarajulian3154 do you? They said up front that they were discussing her principles only. Judging them for not reading the book is like hearing someone's opinion on a sermon and getting mad because they didn't read the whole Bible first.
@@anonymous1984y I should hope every pastor has read the whole Bible and can accurately represent God and His character. If a pastor preached a sermon and said things like "God *probably* this or that" I'd be concerned. No one's asking the hosts to read any of her volumes on the podcast, but why have this discussion with no prep? It's like someone else said, you can't just read the 10 commandments and draw a bunch of conclusions without context. Simply reading her principles and having this discussion and saying things that are verifiably untrue is wrong.
This was incredibly disappointing and incorrect. It would be wonderful if you had included someone who's actually read her volumes. This is a misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason's principles and methods.
The one glimmer of hope within these videos was the guy on the far right (screen right) who seemed to actually be at least interested in this topic. He was reading most of the time while the others yapped and saying stuff that sounded like he was actually comprehending a little bit of it and maybe thinking this isn’t so bad, actually. My prediction: he’ll jump ship 😂
It’s not the choosing between the two that is irksome. It’s the total lack of study of any CM writings. They obviously failed in their preparation. Even people who disagree with CM are in agreement with how poorly this was done.
@ no, I would actually agree with MP. Despite the majority of the comments section, it comes down to radical philosophy. The radical philosophies are different between Mason and MP Classical. If you judge them by their output or branches you’ll get a lot of overlap, but at the core they come from different places. I think a lot of people are just offended.
@@dryerfire5384I’m pretty sure the people commenting aren’t true MP followers. They were probably told in their Facebook groups about these episodes, and came in hard for the attack (I’m here because of a post in a MP group 😂😂). I can’t speak for or against MP in regards to these episodes. Even though I use many of their materials I wouldn’t consider myself a true classical educator. And I haven’t studied CM deeply either. But I realize MP is biased and really wouldn’t expect much else. They believe deeply in their philosophy and want others to follow it as well.
Autumn Kern from the Commonplace RUclips channel did a wonderful series on the 20 principles for anyone interested in a short explanation of the principles and how they fit in the classical tradition.
Such a dissapointing converstion...I've never listened to this podcast but was interested in memoria press before and am interested in charlotte mason also...trying to figure out the differences...also listen to the commonplace on youtube sometimes...kind of sad to see them talking about a topic that they seem to have no knowledge about....if they actually did their homework, I think the conversation would be different. They straight up just make up their own ideas and interpretations of what they think charlotte mason is.
Classical education has never been child-centered or child-led! That is a progressive idea. Charlotte Mason's pedagogy is child-centered, I do believe the podcasters were mistaken in calling CM child-led. I am in my 18th year of homeschooling and remember the days when CM purists balked (and rightly so!) at the notion CM was classical. I am not totally sure why CMers felt the need to try to make CM something it is not.
Hopefully they would invite someone from Classical Conversations onto the show to interview. I would love to see a series of discussions about other classical homeschooling models/companies. Be friends with your competitors and invite them onto the podcast. It helps homeschooling families learn and discern to have these discussions with experts.
10:45. "Charlotte Mason probably never read Emile by Rousseau."
Wow, thank you for sharing this, it is very helpful for us, that don’t know too much about either…it makes me want to read more/do a lot more research myself
Excellent comment. Thank you for this! I'm quite disappointed with MP for their laziness in research Charlotte Mason and the educational philosophy.
Thank you for your time in this well thought out comment!
Thank you for your detailed reply. The participants in this video should be ashamed of their lack of preparation for this discussion. I think they need to invite you next time!!
Thank you, Karen! Your books have been an excellent resource in helping me understand CM ❤
I don't want to be hyperbolic, but this video is similar to if a secular person read the ten commandments and then spoke as if they understood Christianity. CM is highly mischaracterized here. I've found some great value in your past content, but this video is not only a miss for me, it makes me question the validity of your other discussions.
YES!
Absolutely.
Yes. I agree it has discredited them. I am.not a fan of their curriculum. It's workbooks and comprehension based literature guides, none of which are part of the classical tradition.
@@classicaleducationpodcastI came across a huge box of their curriculum at a library book sale. I've never seen anything more depressing in my life. It's a formula. Using that would absolutely crush the spirit of curiosity in any child.
After hearing this, I would not trust them to have done their research on other topics.
It feels like you all really missed the essence of Charlotte Mason in this discussion. She wrote six volumes in her Home Education series, so simply going through her 20 principles really isn't enough to understand her philosophy. I don't even think you communicated her principles accurately. You almost describe her as a Victorian un-schooler, which is not the case. A Charlotte Mason education is very much aligned with Classical principles. The Commonplace here on RUclips is a great CM resource for anyone interested.
Entonces para qué escribió 20 principios si no serán suficientes para entender la filosofía.
Con mucho respeto, te digo, me he dado cuenta que todos los defensores de la educación moderna parecen no ser honestos intelectualmente y finalmente parecen no aceptar que no han inventado nada nuevo.
Es mejor aceptar que la mejor educación desde una mirada cristiana es aquella que tiene más de 2000 años en vez de 200.
I agree completely. They missed the mark here. I would have loved to see Karen Glass on here for a better discussion.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372Mason’s philosophy isn’t 200 years old, though. Which is the entire point. She was using classical methods. Her 20 principles were written when she was older, after the war, as a summation of what she’d found to be true after an entire career. Some things she was doing were “modern” by victorian standards, because what she was doing was actually returning to classical methods using tools like narration. This is similar to how Erasmus and Aristotle would have been educated. Charlotte Mason is thoroughly classical in the classical sense of the word.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372have you heard of Generations curriculum?
She would have been pretty against unschooling. She had things that should be taught as well as how they should be taught. She just didn’t believe in tabula rasa
She believes in habit training which MP also has, they really didn’t study Charlotte Mason for this.
The clear lack of preparation for this episode is a mar on Memoria and frankly embarrassing. I hope they can respond to the criticism here with intellectual integrity and don’t just end up brushing this under the rug. Please do better!!
Truly
Hello, I read all 6 of Charlotte Mason's books about 20 years ago. I am about 12 minutes into your program. I don't consider myself a strict literalist, when it comes to Charlotte Mason; however, I find much worth in her work. Your initial characterization of Charlotte Mason is a far cry from the Charlotte Mason philosophy that I read about. She was diligently interested in formation through developing habits, which would carry children into adulthood. She urged parents/teachers to be exemplary examples, and constantly exhorted them to watch over the formation of children. Charlotte Mason had an understanding of the dignity of the human person, which, I believe, could have been taken right out of the pages of something written more recently, by John Paul II (one of her great strengths, though, hard to convey to someone who isn't 'a master teacher,' so to speak). Charlotte never left the children to themselves in terms of letting them choose their own learning materials. In fact, she insisted that they not be given what she called "twaddle." Today we might call it 'bad food, or books that are not good for kids/people (including, but not limited to an overdose of leveled readers (probably, unlike Charlotte Mason, I believe they can have a limited, though not exclusive place) and "broken books," to borrow a term from Oliver DeMille. Her use of copywork and narration are excellent means of formation, language development, the development of critical thinking skills, etc). She was by no means hands off, in her approach to education. And she understood the dangers of failing to strive to provide children with proper formation. She did; however, believe that students would learn more from the great minds that wrote great books, than from the potential busy-bodiness of teachers who might want to do what today, we would call micro-managing...so much more to unpack in just the first few statements that you have made in regards to Charlotte Mason's approach to education, but this should make clear the point I am trying to make. I am watching your video, because of an interest in both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education (and they do have very real points of contact). I am not necessarily advocating one approach over another. I just don't get the sense that you are demonstrating a thorough understanding of Charlotte Mason.
MP, please don't be afraid to recant, repent and interview someone knowledgeable such as Karen Glass, Brandy Vencel, Mystie Winckler, Autumn Kern, etc. They are all gracious women who would love to have a conversation about CM.
Yes! Repentance is such a good practice!
This.
@@KHomestead repentance is for sin. It’s a sin to lie. They didn’t.
This would be refreshing!
Actually, they did lie, as they made blatant and arrogant assertions, based on their preconceived notions, without reading her volumes to even understand her terms. Do not present yourself as an expert on what you do not understand, and did not attempt to.
It doesn't seem that a single person in this discussion has read a single book by or even about Charlotte Mason. Nearly every point was misrepresenting her philosophies.
For true information about how Charlotte Mason education compares to classical education, read Consider This by Karen Glass. It's an easy read and highly illuminating.
It's disheartening that these educators did not even take the time to educate themselves before purporting to "teach" us something. Very disappointed.
I personally wouldn’t use anything from Karen Glass. She’s actually the one who made me dislike CM initially.
I respectfully disagree- her book on narration, Know and Tell, was what helped me understand enough to use this in our school & it has been extremely fruitful.
Disappointed deeply in this one. I have used MP and a CM approach for 20 years. We should be drawing on the good and true from across the classical educational sphere not slapping down strawmen. Commonplace House , Autumn Kern, Karen Glass, Classical Academic press, Circe Institute, Ravi Jain, Christopher Perrin, Jason Barney and so many more Christian classical educators today are working to build a culture of faith and wisdom for our children and firmly place Miss Mason rightfully amongst the educational philosophers best suited to help guide us with this monumental task. It is shameful to see the lack of research, insight and charity in this episode. Are we just competitive companies angling for sales or are we parents and teachers united to educate classically?
Came here to say this but could not have said it better myself.
Y'all, I'm only 14 minutes in and this is a horrible understanding of Mason. I actually feel bad for the hosts. They don't know how much they are speaking out of turn. It would have been much better to interview Karen Glass or do a book review of Consider This.
Unless there is a follow-up episode that humbly recants, this episode is a thorough indictment on Memoria Press. I've read CM's volumes, Karen Glass's books on CM, and several books on CE. I've even taken a class on Norms and Nobility through Circe, so I believe I have a good grasp on both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education. I have used some MP materials to supplement our Ambleside Online education (I've been homeschooling for 12 years now using Charlotte's methods, and currently have children spanning kindergarten through 10th grade). I don't think we'll use MP anymore. Other curriculum sellers, such as Veritas Press, Simply Charlotte Mason, Circe, Classical Academic Press, and Roman Roads, appreciate Charlotte Mason's contributions to home education, and I will support those organizations over Memoria Press.
Here for the comments 😂🫖☕🍿🫣
I'll put the kettle on. The passions are riled but I appreciate mostly everyone is being respectful.
Same 😂😂
This was so disappointing to listen to. I feel like you guys did not put the effort necessary into discussing this subject. Your comments were completely out of context. Miss Mason was not an unschooler by any means. I am merely one year in to this world of classical education and have also explored many aspects of CM education, and I have to say that I feel that you guys have missed the mark on this episode. There is a lot to be respected about both learning styles! I don’t feel this was a fair assessment at all. I love all your podcasts and I am sure I have listened to almost every one now, and many of them numerous times. Memoria Press has changed and enhanced my life and the life of my children in incredible ways over the past year, but this is the first time I have come away incredibly disappointed after one of your podcasts. It felt like a mockery, and an immature discussion. Please revisit this topic with her principles discussed in context next time.
I second this!! Thank you for putting it so clearly! This is exactly how I felt as well!!
I agree. The immature nature of this discussion was appauling. Right at the beginning when the lady said she had to get these men in line, that put a sour taste in my mouth. She does not need to undermine the men sitting around her. That upset me right off the bat. On all points they clearly have not read Mason. They are describing unschooling. Mason is not unschooling whatsoever.
It is blatantly obvious that none of you have actually read Mason’s 6 volumes. Your “summary” of her 20 Principles is so far off the mark. This episode should never have seen the light of day.
Agreed!! 🤦♀️
I don’t like to leave comments, but I’m actually just so embarrassed that an organization I thought was incredibly knowledgeable just proved themselves otherwise. 😮 I thought the whole point of educating our children was to teach them to be able to have intelligent discourse and educated thoughts- not to just present information they clearly know nothing about (isn’t that the problem with modern society as a whole?!) I just hope young homeschooling families who watch this actually take the time to READ Charlotte Mason before forming uneducated opinions on her…
I stopped it halfway through because I was genuinely so embarrassed for you all that I couldn’t go on any further.
Then my train-wreck curiosity got the better of me and I finished it. I can’t even be mad about the gross misrepresentation of Mason’s philosophies (and who she was as a person) because it’s all so ignorant that it’s laughable. Truly, anyone who has even cracked open one volume will be able to see how utterly unprepared and ill-equipped you all are to give this discussion any weight.
As a homeschool mom of six for the last 23 years, I’ve been able to carve out time to read her volumes through multiple times. As education administration is (presumably?) your paid vocations, I’d think you do yourselves (and certainly anyone who comes to you for guidance) a great service by actually reading up on your topic before presenting your “expert” opinion.
After all, isn’t that what you’ve taught your Rhetoric stage students to do?
Let’s discuss “War and Peace” next. I’ll go get my cliff notes and my graphic novel. Seriously, my flabbers are gasted. For such a reputable organization, this was mortifying. It was so cringe-worthy that I couldn’t even be outraged at the gross misrepresentation - I just felt embarrassed for the hosts in their ignorance. Apologies are necessary, MP. Your followers deserve better.
Also, as others have mentioned, try contacting Karen Glass for an interview as “part 2,” if you guys want to do the right thing. True education should bring humility, not arrogance; let’s see the best in you.
This is a completely incorrect explanation of Charlotte Mason and her philosophy. Even the description on this video contains a number of inaccuracies. I would refer anyone who actually wants to know about Charlotte Mason to begin with Karen Glass' book Consider This.
I’m flabbergasted that a group of adults who consider themselves educators would choose to record themselves having a conversation about a topic they haven’t taken the time to read about. I agree with previous comments, it’s better to answer the question “How does CM compare with classical?” by saying “I don’t know. I haven’t read her work extensively” than what is presented here.
Is this a selling point of your curriculum or an opportunity to gain traffic on your podcast? Either way, it’s quite telling. Good luck with posting Part 2 of this conversation.
I agree. What is the point of trying to define and compare CM to MP?
@@ShawnaRei the point is to either claim her (as “part of” a classical education) or to reject her (which any thinking person would find it impossible to do, because she is/was BRILLIANT). Classical folks are in a pickle (it’s fun to watch them dill with it)… Because if they reject her, they are partially discrediting themselves, because what’s not to love about real books, real art, real music, etc…. But if they claim her, they also partially discredit themselves bc they have to admit that many of their methods are wrong, because hers are in direct opposition to theirs. It’ll be interesting to watch them try to wriggle their way out of this. I agree with you, though. Why compare apples to oranges?
Oh wow. I'm shocked that a group of classical educators would sit and discuss something that they've clearly never read. Charlotte Mason is not "child-led learning," and to summarize it as such is laughable. Perhaps this panel should go back and read the six volumes Mason wrote on education before showing their ignorance further.
I've been trying to decide between Classical Education and Charlotte Mason and i've been finding out that CM is classical. The way they're describing CM does not seem accurate. (See the youtube channel The Commonplace) BUT the way they are describing CE (Memoria Press) in this video is convincing me to use CM (as i understand it, not the way they describe it)
CM is not classical. It contains anything positive there is about CE, contains lots CE doesn’t even touch, and does not contain the negatives of CE. So the real question is not “Is CM classical?” The real question is, “Is Classical Ed CM?” And the answer is, decidedly, “No.”
24:29 no she doesn't disagree with that. She writes extensively about the importance of habit training. AND she was not simply a great teacher, she was a teacher of teachers. this snippet of the conversation alone demonstrates that the panelists not only did not read any of her work, but also did no research on the person of CM. Why? Why bother to do this? If your customers are constantly asking about CM, why not actually prepare to address the topic?
Just before this point in the conversation this was said, “Most of your employed life you’ll be doing exactly what is expected of you and required of you, and we start that training, which is a training in virtue, with young students”. Is this content the kind of content Memoria Press expects of their employees? Is this the level of effort you are expected to put into your work? Each podcast participant here is a public facing employee of an organization that prides itself in working to develop the character and mind of the next generation. An organization that proports to value virtue, discipline, and excellence. Yet, none of those values are demonstrated in the work that was put into this episode. It’s a shame. The effort put into this point to a lack of respect for the author and her work. It also disrespects the parents and educators who reach out to Memoria Press regarding the topic. As was said at the beginning, 5:55 they get asked all the time and they've put it off. They should have continued to put it off until they could put in the effort and prepare to have an intelligent conversation about the topic.
They are attacking a Charlotte that doesn't exist, a straw man, then they go on to say things that they are in agreement with, things that are more in line with what Charlotte actually said. This is sad. I expect much more from you, Memoria Press. Charlotte's Motto is Education is an ATMOSPHERE, a DISCIPLINE, and a LIFE.
Wow.
I consider myself a strong supporter of classical education, have taught in a classical school, and I send my own children to a hybrid classical school, and we use some memoria press materials in our home. I enjoy some aspects of Charlotte Mason and I agree with a lot of what she had to say in her volumes, but I’m choosing a different path for my kids than what she would recommend. However, this video is a huge mischaracterization on almost every aspect of what y’all “think” she said. This is easy to prove because she wrote so much down that you all spoke to but had not read.
For an organization that centers around reaching a point of learning where you can effectively argue a point, this was pretty terrible.
There are actually valid arguments against Charlotte mason’s methods and even more valid arguments about how her methods are implemented, packaged and sold in the modern day, but this is a terrible and intellectually lazy analysis.
Amazing. You guys are actually even un-selling memoria press with this one, because I’d truly hate for my own student to speak publicly on a topic of which they were so massively uninformed. Sometimes silence is a stronger argument… it definitely is stronger than whatever this was.
Absolutely. I've read CM's volumes, Karen Glass's books on CM, and several books on CE. I've even taken a class on Norms and Nobility through Circe, so I believe I have a thorough grasp on both Charlotte Mason and Classical Education. I have used some MP materials to supplement our Ambleside Online education (I've been homeschooling for 12 years now, and currently have children spanning kindergarten through 10th grade). I don't think we'll use MP anymore. I like other curriculum sellers, like Veritas Press, Simply Charlotte Mason, Circe, and Roman Roads. All of those sellers appreciate Charlotte Mason's contributions to home education, and I will support those organizations over Memoria Press from now on.
If Mitchell was the one leading the discussion, I think he did a poor job of preparation. I agree, Mason is difficult to explain & it is easy to make her sound like an unschooler or “just read books all the time”. I also agree that putting her in the historical context is extremely important to understand her principles as a reaction to the German schools (she says this herself). However, she is decidedly NOT an unschooler, the lessons are NOT student led, & there are still HIGH expectations of students. I’d suggest having further discussion about the differences of Mason & Classical models with Karen Glass, Ambleside Online, Simply Charlotte Mason, or Delectable Education Podcast. DE Podcast has gone through Vol 6 & discussed it as well. I would recommend Mitchell begins listening to it.
I don’t think Mitchell was leading the discussion. I think it was meant to be the 4 of them discussing their thoughts and we get to overhear it. It was never meant to be a thorough overview.
"They need the structure. They need the order." This is not a counterpoint to Charlotte Mason 's ideas. She is very adamant about structure and habit training!
Absolutely! 100%!
Right? Have they seen the times table for CM schools? I don't know how you can't get more structured that that!!
I cringed so much when they said this. They have no idea what they are talking about and how much CM focuses on habit training.
Have you even read her volumes? I'm really amazed at how far off you are.
Cringing in secondhand embarrassment. This is like watching a child give a book report on a book he didn't actually read.
Watching this made me cringe inside. I honestly used to think the same thing that the hosts do about Charlotte Mason and a CM style of education. I told so many people that it was an inadequate form of education and was very prideful about the fact that I only used full Memoria Press cores in our homeschool.
The Lord, in His mercy, convicted me of my pride and allowed me to see what an actual CM education looked like which pushed me to read her own words and study the philosophy deeply. I can say that this video is a total mischaracterization of her work and thoughts as an educator.
These days, I’m a proud CM style homeschooling mom of 6 and have seen tremendous growth in my children’s lives and an increase in their wisdom and understanding. We actually do still use some MP products - I love their phonics, spelling (some of my kids need a spelling program even though we are CM style) and geography. We use many of their book recommendations and I recommend the curriculum to those looking for workbooks with classical subject matter.
I truly hope the hosts will put aside their arrogance and actually read a volume by Charlotte Mason. They don’t have to love it or agree with her, but they shouldn’t misrepresent her.
What an epic misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason. Goodness. Absolutely embarrassing to watch Classical educators sit down to discuss a topic having NOT actually read the source material. If your brand of education encourages using "selections" and "summaries" to deem yourself "knowledgeable" on a subject to the point of speaking "intelligently" on that subject, you not only missed CM (by a longshot), you missed the entire classical approach you yourselves are marketing. Even if the goal of this presentation was to prop up MP by poking holes in CM, you should have come to the table with a deeper understanding. Because even those that are surface level familiar with Charlotte Mason could see through the gaping holes in your arguments. This is a bad look. Yikes.
9:16 the speakers are sharing common misunderstandings about Charlotte Masons approach to education in particular and children in general. I too would be frustrated if I misunderstood Mason the way they characterize her method.
“Child are born persons” is the foundational principle for educating a child and here they see it as a romantic ideal (9:37). It’s funny, because Mason and these educators agree on many things- the child has dignity, rightly ordered authority and obedience are essential to the education of children.
What struck me the most is that the difference between modern classical educators and a Mason classical education is that Mason is constantly bringing us away from a utilitarian view of education and the child and into honoring the dignity of the child, the teacher, the family (see Home Education.)
26:53 One speaker shares an anecdote about his mother seeing “everything in the house as part of his education.” Here Mason agrees. Then he explained how when he says education he means useful to academics ie Mathematics or linguistic games.
Mason wants us to see that we are educating the whole child: mind, body, and soul. (As seen in the use of Knowledge of God, Knowledge of Man, Knowledge of the universe categories)
In historically classical and a Mason education there are parts of the child that we will endeavor to educate that may not be useful in the sense it will be directly tied to earning a living - but it will be beneficial to the child in that his affections will be rightly ordered toward what is true, good, and beautiful.
Take the example made about nature - “You can’t just drop ‘em in a forest they’ll grow up there…”- (17:55) this is not what Mason is saying in regards to getting outside in nature. She wants to bring children into a relationship with nature -as in Gods creation- because it is their heritage and our children and society is exceedingly poor in knowing and possessing nature. You can’t love what you don’t know. Is there a practical and job-oriented end goal for a child learning about all the flora and fauna in her neighborhood? Perhaps not in a STEM world exactly, but there is a benefit to the child as a person. We can all acknowledge the healing effects of creation on a weary soul.
This video was a disappointment and was a huge disservice to the homeschooling community. The clarity we received is that Mason is difficult to understand for modern minds because she pulls us so far outside our usual way of seeing ourselves, our children and education.
I encourage those who are interested in Mason to read her for yourself or at least read Karen Glass.
I’m very interested in using with my 6yr old , especially after reading your comment and others below, which volume should I start with? I understand there are six volumes.
@ I like starting with Home Education it’s the most practical.
I always appreciate your thoughts and what you share, Joy! Great feedback.
@@Micasa22 thank you so much 😊
@@joycherrick Along side Home Education , Ourselves is so important in the modern era...I recommend it to families of all educational philosophies because it is the perfect poetic knowledge primer of living a virtuous life and understanding the classical view of what man is meant to be and how he is meant to live.
These hosts don't know what they are talking about here. Their cluelessness about Miss Mason makes them blind guides. The whole thing is full of staw man arguments and just plain ignorance of her methods. And plenty of arrogance: they are trying to discuss something they admit they haven't read, and thus can't *actually* speak to. They read only the preface, but think they understand the book. The guy on the left at 20:45 says, "You can't argue against that [the Gradgrindian school] and think you've struck a blow at classical education." Similarly, you can't reject the picture these 4 paint of Charlotte Mason, and think you've struck a blow at her: they are so painfully ignorant on the subject, that it would be impossible for them to say anything that would help you gain an understanding of what she's about. Try reading Consider This by Karen Glass, or visiting the AfterThoughts blog by Brandy Vencil. Or actually reading Miss Mason's 6th volume that they claim to be discussing.
I use Charlotte Mason's methods because they are the most beautiful and accessible version of a classical education I have found. Ironically, I don't care for the Memoria Press Latin materials we have because they are easily the least classical, most Gradgrindian of anything we've tried. I was so excited when we got them, but having used them a while... I'm not at all impressed. Fortunately, I've learned to supplement in ways that take the edge off the grind. But my kids just detest those books, and I can't blame them: no ideas, no story, no life --just grinding away at memorization. For *years*. It's pretty audacious of them to say they reject Gradgrind (they don't), and then spend their time tearing down a method that actually does reject the grind, and actually is effective at teaching children to love learning for its own sake.
Agree. I’m very disappointed and questioning all of their opinions on other topics too. Are they studying the subject to “teach” here?
A CM education is not child led.
The conversation began awkwardly, and I don’t think you all were prepared for the discussion and it seems you knew that. I am hopeful a part 2 results in either including people who have read and thought deeply about her volumes or that you will do so beforehand.
This was very poor analysis on Charlotte Masons philosophy.
28:15 I’m no Charlotte Mason expert, but she was anti-twaddle. She encouraged parents to control what books children could access.
Also when she's talking about an artificial environment and at a child's level--- she is arguing against Montessori who insisted in creating a miniature artificial, child size world.
@karenglass9454 wrote an excellent book called Consider This comparing Charlotte Mason and classical education. I would really like to see Memoria have the humility to admit they missed the mark here and perhaps interview Karen on their podcast to correct the many misrepresentations of Charlotte Mason that they presented on this podcast.
"Charlotte Mason probably never read Emile". 🤦♀️🤦♀️ Well, yes she did. In fact, she thoroughly addressed Rousseau in her writings. Which you would know if any of you had read her works 😬😬This is so embarrassing to listen to.
I literally started choking and tearing up when he said that.
@@classicaleducationpodcastright?! And the condescending little chuckle. They thought they could hold that one over her. NOPE.
@@merrittfamily1269I remain flabbergasted and appalled that they would publish this conversation. But their curriculum is quite opposite of classical. It's workbooks and comprehension-based. They are not part of the Tradition of classical--if you read the fathers of the classical tradition. I am pretty sure Socrates would not approve of workbooks. 😂
SO embarrassing!
Said with an attitude suggesting she wasn't "well read". 🤦♀ Oy.
If I were to judge all of MP on this video they way they judged CM on their perceptions of the 20 principles without having any real knowledge of Charlotte Mason I would say they have no business discussing education much less publishing and selling educational materials. Shameful.
It’s like one of you said, “Let’s record ourselves pretending we know what we’re talking about.” Please correct this insult to your listener’s intelligence.
They should never have had a discussion about something they know nothing about and I’m a bit horrified that they said the CSR answer this question on a regular basis.
Thank you for making it clear that (a) you haven't read Charlotte Mason's writings and (b) that Memoria Press is not a resource I can use to guide new-to-homeschooling families.
I’m ~1/3 of the way through this discussion and it is absolutely EXCRUCIATING to watch. It’s obvious that you haven’t read any of Charlotte’s writing and are completely misinterpreting the 20 principles because you don’t understand the premise under which she wrote her principles. You’re speaking about her educational philosophy as though it leans toward unschooling, whereas it is very much the opposite.
I love and use MP, and agree with their educational philosophy. But as a former CM devotee, I have to respectfully agree with the other commenters here that this episode does not present an accurate representation of Mason’s philosophy. She absolutely did not advocate giving children freedom to do and be whatever they wished. She had a definite, structured curriculum, and high expectations. I do agree that she was a romanticist, and I disagree with her on the nature of the child (and don’t get me started on her method of reading instruction). There is much to criticize (and admire) about Mason, but this episode criticized a straw woman.
I wish this would have been an honest and informed discussion. Charlotte Mason is indeed classical. For those desiring better understanding see anything from the Classical Education podcast and website by University of Dallas. Commonplace Mom and Karen Glass Consider This and Norms and Nobility will get you started in this discussion.
Thank you for mentioning my podcast and the work I did at UD.
This is embarrassing.
I think this is what it would look like if I assigned my student something to read and then they pretended to read it only to deliver a Narration based not on the assignment but on what there immature mind preconceived might have been in the chapter.
Of course my students don’t do this, because they are intelligent and disciplined students of CM’s philosophy.
The way this whole panel engaged the conversation of CM philosophy is exactly why we need classical education today. I just didn’t think I’d see it from a classical publisher.
You don’t have to agree with CM. But read, listen, and do better.
Please, please address what some of the commenters have said here. This podcast was a misrepresentation of what Charlotte Mason actually said and is an embarrassment. It sounds like (and I could be wrong) you all read ONLY the 20 principles and then decided to comment on them. To be honest, I think many of her principles would be worded differently if she were writing in 2024. This is why it’s important to read her actual words. Please go back and read the 6th volume (or just do what I am doing and use Brandy Vencel’s Start Here reading plan, which is a journey through her 20 principles with reading assignments from Mason’s volumes for each principle). Just like it is wrong to review a book based on reading the clif notes, this is wrong.
Charlotte Mason is Classical in the broad sense. Most of this was straw man uninformed talk. Of course there are practical and philosophical differences between neo-Classical and Charlotte Mason but this wasn't a great exploration of those.
Have you looked at her school schedules to see what her students did? Looked at the day-to-day of modern Charlotte Mason homeschoolers?
I think the examples chosen (like whether or not you should fight in front of your kids) aren't at all what Charlotte Mason was speaking to when she said not to dumb down a child's environment. Her comments were a disagreement with Montessori who had tiny child-version everything for the kids. So you're taking an incomplete understanding and a non-educational example (not that her work never addressed parenting and the home life) and making it seem like Charlotte Mason would say it's OK or good to fight in front of your kids? A better examples is that CM would prefer real handicraft tools instead of craft 'kits' made for kids that do most of the work for you.
Also a lot of this discussion seems to paint CM as not just different from neo-classical, but self-contradictory and non-sensical. Such as the idea that we have a classroom but kids do the teaching being confused or inconsistent. Please try to understand: having a classroom and choosing, assigning and scheduling the materials does not mean that the child then just absorbs it with the teacher in 'control' (that word was used a lot interestingly). All kids will take slightly different things from those materials and that's normal and OK. That's what Charlotte Mason is saying. So I think Charlotte Mason would not agree with modern lesson plans that specify down to the minutiae what students will 'take' from the lesson. We cannot digest the food for them, nor can we force them to digest it in a certain way. It's OK if you don't see it that way, but trying to present something you haven't really studied as confused and self-contradictory comes across as condescending.
I hope you can do better in Part 2. Maybe address some of the practical differences and the philosophical reasons behind those. For example, children making a book of centuries from people they have read and learned about vs. learning/memorizing a timeline of people they haven't learned about yet. People have different reasons for doing it each way.
As a background, yes we have used CM for 11 years now.
Arrogance + ignorance = this episode.
I agree. Good succinct description.
Bingo 🎯
Wow. That was a completely sham analysis. In the final few minutes, it was acknowledged that CM means that the teacher can teach and the student must be engaged for actual learning to take place. This comment negated most of the negative talk that went on about CM being a child-led philosophy for the first 34 minutes. I think what happens is that some of the most popular and vocal people calling themselves followers of CM are, in fact, unschoolers who have about as much knowledge of CM as these podcasters. Yet, they claim the name CM and her reputation is tied more closely to them than to those who actually read her writings and interact seriously with her ideas, taking into consideration her cultural and historical context. Please do better.
Also, you're promoting a servile education in much of this conversation with all the talk of being prepared for the boring real world. That is a very un-Christian view of the world, its beauty and our privilege in it as image bearers.
Yes! Your comment is perfect! Thank you for saying this.
Wow! Please read Charlotte Mason. This is a complete misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason’s philosophy. The sad thing is that you are giving false information to young parents that are trying to figure out how to educate their children. As a homeschool parent of 25 years that tried so many different curriculums and looked into so many philosophies I can tell you that Charlotte mason is a treasure for any teacher. You will not regret studying her and your children will greatly benefit. I think MP needs to acknowledge publicly their lack of preparation for this episode. If you truly care about your audience, especially young parents, admit that maybe you are not experts on charlotte mason and shouldn’t be advising or acting like you know what you are talking about in this instance.
I hope any young, new homeschool parent watching this visits the comments ❤
Charlotte Mason IS classical. And having now listened to your episode, I have a feeling that you completely misunderstood and misrepresented her. The 20 principles are like reading prompts, they're meant to be memory aids of what you have already read in her volumes. The insistence on formation/habits/paideia is very pronounced in Charlotte Mason education. She talks about laying the table of great knowledge before your children and let them feast. But YOU lay the table, you choose the knowledge. And obedience and good habits are fundamental to a successful education.
Yes! She said, "the teacher becomes GUIDE, philosopher, and friend." WE lay the feast! It is not child led or unschooling!
No, not their understanding of classical. It’s so much more.
@@SkylarWhitmirepues mal. No es bíblico ni clásico decir que el maestro es un guía o un amigo. El maestro es alguien dotado de la suficiente sabiduría para ser tu instructor. “INSTRUYE al niño en su camino…”, no dice “GUÍA…” . Tampoco como padre eres amigo de tus hijos, eres su PADRE.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372the quote is itself a quote and a reference to Alexander Pope and books, not a blithe relinquishing of parental duty and Bible principles. It has to be read in context.
@@fundamentohomeschool7372 in the Hebrew the root word ‘hanak’ means both those things. I guess what you’re misunderstanding may come from your lack of knowledge on what the words guide and instruct mean. Depending on the conditions they are the same thing and those words are use interchangeably often in scripture.
This is very disappointing. I don’t believe that y’all have actually read Charlotte Mason’s volumes.
I was wondering if there would be only one or two comments disagreeing with the substance of this episode…clearly this overwhelming flood of critiques is onto something.
As many others have said, the ignorance of this panel is beyond disgraceful. I think the comments have covered everything. I just want to say that this discussion has discredited MP in my eyes to such a degree, that I will never purchase another MP product again.
As a frequent listener to the podcast I am highly disappointed in this episode. I echo the recommendations of having a conversation with Autumn Kern and Karen Glass.
Did yall just mansplain Charlotte Mason, based on general impressions, to an audience that has been reading and studying her for decades 😂 oops. Definitely get Karen Glass on for genuine research, and we'll all tune in and boost that. We will cheer that like mad.
Mansplain? No need for this kinda n behaviour. Misrepresented sure both genders are fully capable of this behaviour.
@@mktay2067the woman was mansplaining too, when she wasn’t insisting that the “conversation” move on before a point was even made.
😂😂😂
I get what you're saying, and it's a good point. But the word "mansplain". 😬😬 I very much doubt that most people who use that word would find "womansplain" or "blacksplain" or "gaysplain" anything even approaching acceptable: it's not any different to do it to men.
Please invite someone who is an expert on Charlotte Mason on your show and interview her or him. Charlotte Mason developed an education method that was more attainable for the average child and that could be replicated at home. As wonderful as a true Classical education is, it is not for every child. Charlotte Mason method is wonderful in that it exposes children to the beautiful and true things and develops a life long love of learning.
I would encourage you to read her volumes and talk with people that have studied this methodology for years. I think you will like it more than you think ❤.
I feel like this was an attempt to get people to choose MP over “Charlotte Mason” instead of doing research and seeing how similar they were. Only Martin did research.
Memoria Press, based on the overwhelming feedback here, you should have a good representative of the CM pedagogy on your show to explain what CM actually is. It’s only the right thing to do.
As a CM educator of 6 children, I feel sorry for you that you made assumptions regarding a CM education instead of having someone join your discussion that’s knowledgeable.
I love your podcast… but I’m so deeply offended that you didn’t read CM books to understand her philosophy. 😢
You all are experts in the wonderful classical homeschool program you all produce. People like Karen Glass and Cindy Rollins and Wendi Capehart are experts in implementing Charlotte Mason's methods (see Karen's comments above). I really enjoy Classical Etc. and have used Memoria Press materials for years. Just like you ask Andrew Pudewa to the show when talking about IEW it would be lovely to see you reach out to the Ambleside Online community and its board/developers for much better understanding of Charlotte Mason and her methods.
What a wonderfully put comment amongst a sea of ugliness!
Oh, Charlotte Mason is not child-led! I have seen this used so many times to describe her philosophy and it's just not accurate. CM is a part of the classical tradition! She herself was classically educated!
Have you read anything by Art Middlekauf of the Charlotte Mason Institute? He is somewhat of an expert and believes Charlotte Mason was a progressive educator and that a CM education is a child-centered one.
@@capsela2 That only shows that even 'experts' can be wrong and we would do well to return to primary sources and critically assess them with our own God given wisdom.
@@capsela2 Child-centered and child-led are not the same thing.
Yes, but classical education is not child-centered! Charlotte Mason is child-centered and progressive.
And I do believe they misspoke when they called CM child-led. I have never seen serious CMers be child-led.
I often enjoy your discussions. This one I find wanting. I’m listening and not convinced you have understood her work beyond the bullet point principles.
They don't even understand the principles!
Honest question: have you actually read about CM and her philosophy of education?
Probably not much, this is a classical podcast based on a school that writes their own classical curriculum that’s implemented in their schools. It is not CM based.
'Not encroaching upon their person,' translates to - if their calling is not to be a ballerina, don't force them into those shoes. Charlotte Mason differentiated between the essential; obedience to a parent who tells you not to run into the street, or mistreat your little sister, for instance; and the non-essential: attempting to form a child's interests and aptitudes according to the design of the parent/adult, rather than according to God's plan for them, as revealed in their natural abilities, interests, etc.,
Or if one child tends towards more literal step by step narrations and another tends towards more reflective narrations, we can help each of them grow and expand but we don't need to or want to stamp their own voice out of their narrations.
Wow, this is so far off. You should actually read the books. All of them.This is not children teaching, it isn’t unschooling, it is a feast of an education that is deep and rich.
I will never be a purist but I think she treated children more as their own people but guided them to be good people with wisdom and a lot of experiences beyond books. Have you looked at or done a year of a Charlotte Mason education? It is structured. It is probably much more learning than a classical experience. No, I am sure it is, no probably about it, because it instills a love for learning. It is less busy work, but rigorous, and teaches more than just memorization and regurgitation. And trust me there is a lot of memorization. There is also so much enrichment.
I don’t agree with every single thing Charlotte Mason and as I said will never be a purist, but her methods are so much better than a classical education ever will be. And if someone is on the fence, this is NOT the video to watch to seal your decision.
I recommend a face to face of MP panel with CM panel (any of those mentioned above would do). We are not against discussing CM pros and cons. It’s not a cult. We invite discussion. The question would be… is there a reason why you wouldn’t want to address CM people face to face?
That would be awesome.
Honestly as a regular viewer of this podcast I don’t really care about CM and their regular subscribers probably don’t either. Most of these comments are coming from CM message boards!
I wondered why MP curriculum users would even care about this question. After listening to this panel I now wonder if in fact CM methods are cutting into MP's bottom line. I mean, these are smart people. Clearly not educated in CM philosophy, but I'm guessing they never intended to be so.
If there is one quote by Mason that essentially undermines the claims made about her educational philosophy in this video, it's probably this one:
“If [our pupils] are so taught that knowledge delights them, they will choose companions who share that pleasure. In this way princes are trained; they must know something of botany to talk with botanists, of history to meet with historians; they cannot afford to be in the company of scientists, adventurers, poets, painters, philanthropists or economists, and themselves be able to do no more than ‘change the weather and pass the time of day’; they must know modern languages to be at home with men of other countries, and ancient tongues to be familiar with classical allusions. Such considerations rule the education of princes, and every boy has a princely right to be brought up so that he may hold his own in good society, that is, the society of those who ‘know.’” - (Towards a Philosophy of Education)
My goodness -- the arrogance of this panel is astounding. On so many levels.
Are these people the owners of Memoria Press? This is astonishingly ignorant. How prideful to give a criticism of someone you have never taken the time to hear out. Is this how they teach Memoria Press students to behave? I'm thankful that Charlotte Mason explicitly tells children not to behave like this in her volume addressed to older children. Check out volume 4's chapters on Justice, beginning at chapter 12. They would be instructive for you. This is shameful.
I agree with you! I have a friend who actually taught at the MP school. She was reprimanded and asked to leave when she veered away from their workbooks to have deeper discussions with the students!She now has her PhD in Bible and has her children in a lovely CM classical school. Her kids hated the MP school and are now thriving.
No, they’re not. Clearly you were sent here by a message board.
@@mama_knitterI am not on message boards or social media. I am a podcaster but don't have a social media account. I am the founder of "classical education" on Facebook but I gave ownership to Jeffery Bond last year. I don't have time or care for message boards. This interview is astonishingly embarrassing for them. They clearly have no idea what they are talking about and should be embarrassed to talk about someone that they've never actually read. I rarely post comments even on RUclips because I cannot stand the drama. But this issue about Mason is so wrong that I couldn't stay quiet.
As a previous Charlotte Mason purist and reader of her books every year for the past eight years I'm floored with the backlash you are receiving- Did this get shared on an Ambleside or Mere motherhood group or something? This is completely on par with today's interpretation and the pitfalls of that interpretation in the Charlotte Mason world. Wow. Really surprised that the bulk of these comments are so hostile.
I've read nearly all of the comments and you are the second person to say this. It is good for folks to respond to ignorance with indignation at times. MP has rightly earned a place of trust, and this podcast episode hurt a lot of people's trust because it was so off, and largely based in ignorance-- they were attacking windmills in a quixotic quest to fell a philosophy they obviously don't understand. I think it's okay to call that what it is, and not mince words just because we like other stuff they do.
@TheCarnivore5247 it's bizarre to expect so much. For starters they specify at the very beginning that they will be going over CM's principals. When we combine this with the fact that they are a classical company selling very traditional classics materials I feel it's a large ask to expect.... What? A huge dive into Charlotte Mason? Deep dialogue into her philosophy? I fault MP in one area-that they felt the need to respond to this request at all. It's a completely different philosophy. Period. I fault everyone else on here for a ridiculous expectation of a deep philosophical discussion on a methodology that a company does not even line up with. Again. Bizarre ask.
@TheCarnivore5247 you say it's good for folks to respond with indignation sometimes and you are correct. Unfortunately though it is not healthy for a community to make a special appearance onto another community's podcast to rant against their thoughts. The fact is this video has almost 3x the viewing of any of their other recent videos tells me that there are many commenters that are not usually here. And again, MP is not wrong! I and many others feel this way about today's CM community and her books! Unfortunately when anything is said, however, the likes of Karen Glass or whomever has to try and shut it down with a bunch of put downs. A disagreement is OK. MP doesn't agree with CM (gasp) and you don't agree with their interpretation (gasp, gasp). We have a right to express this.
@@anonymous1984yi agree they should not have responded to this request.
@@anonymous1984yno one would agree with CM if this (their interpretation) was what it was.
This is pretty bad & You should have read her books before devoting a podcast episode to her philosophies.
She read Emile, you never read CM.
Couldn't get past 12 minutes. Felt annoyed lol
“She read Emile, you never read CM.”😅
Did he just say that Charlotte Mason wasn’t well read😂😂😂
🤦🏻♀️🥸🤣
I think these 4 should have read through the volumes first and really studied them before bringing a video to the public. They clearly don't have a true understanding of Charlotte Mason. And I use both Classical and Charlotte Mason methods and principles in my homeschool.
Highly disappointed in this misrepresentation of Mason and her philosophy. As others here have stated it is clear that beyond the list of principles, most of those in this discussion have not read her actual writings. I just wrote my master's thesis on Plato's ideals of education in his Republic and compared his writings to others including St. Augustine and CM- there is much more overlap than what is hinted at here. I think this video has been a disservice to Memoria Press itself as any family following a CM model that may have enjoyed some of their resources will now probably not consider purchasing them- myself included!
I see there’s a lot of backlash here. I fully understand why people are upset, however, memoria press, in my opinion has very solid curriculum. I do think the Charlotte Mason is widely misunderstood. I think a lot of it has to do with Charlotte Mason inspired curriculum that is making it look like how they are portraying it. Understanding her methods is quite hard to understand. I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I do think they deserve some grace. They have said in their 2nd episode that they will revisit this topic and I think we all can appreciate that.
I mean, if they admitted that Charlotte's philosophy and methods were legit classical instead of straw-manning, then nobody would buy all those workbooks they publish... 😉 MP & VP et al have done a lot of good work making a (neo)classical education accessible to many home- and cottage-schools that aren't ready to let go of the checklist and workbook model, but they need to stay in their lane, especially if they're not going to (apparently) bother to read even just Volume 6 or include a CM expert like Karen Glass in their discussion.
So which CM company publishes Latin and Greek again? Because there is NO classical education without at least Latin (and really Greek should be taught.) If there is no Latin, CM is just as neo-classical as the others you mentioned. Add in the lack of the progym and CM is even more not classical.
And your "expert" was just as wrong about Cardinal Newman in her book as these MP podcasters were about Mason. So should we throw out everything she says and writes because she was ignorant of Cardinal Newman? What else was inaccurate in her book? And I will tell you she was treated far more kindly by Catholic CM homeschoolers about her inaccuracies than I am seeing by CMers on this discussion board.
I'm not 100 percent sure why you are railing against Mrs. Glass, but you could go engage with the post she made on this very thread if you are so concerned with her proposed ignorance on Cardinal Newman, instead of vainly berating other folks about your perspective of that.
Mrs. Glass conceded in a blog post in September of 2015 (I am pretty sure that is when it was, sometime that fall) that she got Cardinal Newman wrong after doing further research (like actually reading his writings). She may be an expert on CM but she certainly wasn't one on Cardinal Newman. Anyone who has actually read her book and writings of Cardinal Newman know she got him wrong in the book. It is as obvious as this group of podcasters getting Charlotte Mason wrong. Charity goes a long way...
The only reason I even brought this up is because the CM mob going after Memoria Press is touting Mrs. Glass as an expert on CM and the classical tradition. However, Mrs. Glass did the SAME EXACT THING as Memoria Press. And it was just as offensive to us as y'all are offended now! Only then we turned the other cheek rather than being absolutely vicious. The charity shown to her has not been shown to Memoria Press.
This was so disappointing. As an avid listener to this podcast and a Charlotte Mason Classical educator you have really missed the mark on this. Really expected one of you at least to have read one of her books or a book about her writings. There are plenty of great suggestions in other comments. Please read and come back with another episode becasue you've got it so so wrong here.
I'm only 8 minutes in. I was hoping to listen to a different perspective on the CM method and learn something, but the constant banter and sarcasm is exhausting. Not sure I can manage to listen to the whole thing.
Most boring “banter” EVER.
@@ashleyapplebanana Rude. Just click off. I enjoy their banter.
Well, this is incredibly disappointing to watch. I’m sad for the amount of false information being spread. It’s very clear that you guys have not even read her books. I do hope that you read them and release a video where you fix the false claims made here.
Making up falsehoods to try to dissuade a person from choosing a style of learning is horrifying and shows a lack of virtue.
Wow. The second hand embarrassment for these four is crippling. I have been involved in classical education for the better part of twenty years and also have read widely from Mason’s work. This is a poor representation of both, of the spirit of inquiry which should mark Classical Education and of Mason’s pedagogy itself.
What a circus this is. What overweening pride this comes across as.
Yep, it’s a clown show.
Pride. Both content and tone of the conversation. As a MP customer, I am surprised and disappointed.
Is there someone we can write a letter to? This video is terrible and I would love to reach out to someone to correct this poor analysis.
Same. I would love to write a letter.
You both have way too much time on your hands.
This was very badly done. One of the commentators specifically noted the importance of context, but none of the 4 seem to understand the context of Charlotte Mason's mindset. Please read any of her many volumes before continuing this conversation. There are certainly things about which we could criticize her, but y'all seem to simply misrepresent her entire ideal.
I enjoy listening to the podcast, however, I think this one missed the mark. Susan Wise Bauer’s Well Trained Mind Podcast does a much better analysis from a pro-classical perspective. I’m unsure if they simply read the list of 20 principles or dug deeper into her volumes and the PNEU. Many classical curriculums and modern Charlotte Mason curriculums use similar rigorous classical book lists, emphasize a deep understanding of history, memory work, development habits, and a love/ respect for God. There are also modern Charlotte Mason curriculums, such as Mater Amabilis, that use Memoria Press curriculum resources and teach Latin. She was not an unschooler, as the picture they’re painting of her. Ultimately it’s good to have this dialogue, and I’m far from a Charlotte Mason purist or expert, but I don’t believe this was an accurate assessment for those beginning to learn about Charlotte Mason. However, I do look forward to listening to your dialogue in Part 2.
I just wanted to quickly say how I really benefited from this comment. I dove right away into Susan's analysis and article. Very helpful! Thank you.
This was frustrating to listen to to say the least. I'm surprised they did not research the philosophy adequately, I have always heard such good things about Memoria Press. The amount of time's I said out loud "that's exactly what she is saying!".
I was excited to see this video show up in my feed. I love some of the materials from Memoria Press, and sometimes walk the line between Charlotte Mason and a more "Classical" approach in some subjects. The two approaches are very similar in many ways, and so I was interested in a nuanced discussion of the finer distinctions.
Was this supposed to be a video comparing Classical with CM though, or comparing Classical with what people think about CM? I absolutely agree that there are things CM got wrong, and I do things differently than she did. But I take Charlotte Mason at her own words, not what others say about her. I didn't "learn" about her from CM purists, or from any specific, rather vocal curriculums. I learned about her philosophy from her own writings. And I would definitely not consider myself a Charlotte Mason (-ish) homeschooler if she actually taught the things addressed in this video.
This is biased with many fallacies.
I like some of your products and like “mixing” with CM because all classical isn’t the best fit for my child. Each philosophy can compliment one another well, but with this airing, I think I’ll look elsewhere for any classical materials.
I find the difference between Charlotte Mason, Classical, and Montessori confusing. Maybe a Venn diagram would be helpful!
Charlotte Mason is classical, that's what is so absurd about this panel discussion. It is, however, different from a neo-classical education which has renamed itself "classical." The Five Flavors of Homeschooling video calls Neo-classical "classical" and Charlotte Mason by her name and explains the differences succinctly.
I’m not a purest when it comes to either classical or CM. I will however, state that while MP may not have shed proper light on Charlotte. Sadly based on the the numerous blogs, books, and media from others who claim CM I feel like MP hit the nail on the head for Modern interpretations.
That’s like saying based on checking out the most popular classical co-op network we are going to explain Classical education. I would think most serious classical educators would not appreciate that kind of flippancy. They went to Instagram accounts instead of Ambleside online or Charlotte Mason schools. They went to hash tags instead of her volumes or experts. Shoddy.
Exactly right. It’s because no one READS anymore. People think these 4 second (or less) sound bites are enough for them to be informed. CM is almost impossible to summarize or explain. You just have to read it for yourself FROM THE SOURCE-not someone else’s interpretation. That’s why it’s Classic Literature in and of itself! It takes SO LONG to digest. I think that’s why those of us who have been studying it for years/decades are so aggrieved. How could anyone do this??? It takes So. Long. for her philosophy to seep in… because it’s DEEP! And WIDE! To be reduced to this ^ is an absolute abomination.
@@ashleyapplebanana an interesting thing to note: when you get a job at a bank or working with money they show what REAL money is. There are so many ways to create imitations that they only focus on the truth. These people are experts in classical education. They don’t need to be experts in CM to understand like many of us that she doesn’t fit the mold.
Well, that was a train wreck. In the words of Nora from Pete’s Dragon, “There’s room for everyone in this world…” Just let CM people be. Quit trying to encompass us under your “umbrella.” It’s clear that classical education people are threatened and want to either compete with or claim CM. How bout neither? Y’all do you. Let us do us. This episode was a fear-based grab for attention. You can’t keep convincing people that you know more than they do if you don’t even read. Please spare us a Part 2.
LOL I think you have that backwards. It wasn't that many years ago that no CM purist would have dreamed of calling themselves classical educators. There were many discussions at the AO boards about it. This reinvention of CM as classical is barely 10 years old. So no, I don't think that classical educators who have 2000 years of pedagogy behind them are trying to steal Charlotte Mason ideas.
They're threatened because more people choosing Charlotte Mason would hurt their bottom line $
I live in California and I have a 7- and 2-year-old. I’m from Brazil, and my husband is from Italy; English is our second language. I am currently seeking a classical education. Last year, I tried to implement CM with my oldest, but unfortunately, it did not work for us. After reading some of the comments, it looks like you need to have a very deep understanding of CM philosophy. Unfortunately, I don’t have this much time to go deeply. I am grateful for discovering this channel a few months ago, as it allows me to have a comprehensive understanding of classical education. Thank you so much.
There are also amazing podcasts and RUclips channels to make Charlotte Mason a lot easier to understand 🙂 And you can enjoy both! I believe Charlotte Mason is broadly classical. If it's not for you that's fine too, but I'd encourage anyone interested to keep implementing elements of Charlotte Mason as they learn from resources like Simply Charlotte Mason, Ambleside Online, Autumn Kern on YT, Brandy Vencel, Karen Glass, Karen Andreola and many others.
This is the problem with today's Charlotte Mason in the US as a whole! It's a complete moving target. Any question or nay saying you have in regard to her philosophy will be met with "you really need to read her books".
@@anonymous1984y Well this is a little extreme though don't you think? I mean if you're going to critique something you have to have a base understanding of what you're talking about. It's like anyone who criticizes the Bible and Christianity when they've never even read the Bible. I think it's pretty reasonable to at least read her books.
@tarajulian3154 do you? They said up front that they were discussing her principles only. Judging them for not reading the book is like hearing someone's opinion on a sermon and getting mad because they didn't read the whole Bible first.
@@anonymous1984y I should hope every pastor has read the whole Bible and can accurately represent God and His character. If a pastor preached a sermon and said things like "God *probably* this or that" I'd be concerned. No one's asking the hosts to read any of her volumes on the podcast, but why have this discussion with no prep? It's like someone else said, you can't just read the 10 commandments and draw a bunch of conclusions without context. Simply reading her principles and having this discussion and saying things that are verifiably untrue is wrong.
This was incredibly disappointing and incorrect. It would be wonderful if you had included someone who's actually read her volumes. This is a misrepresentation of Charlotte Mason's principles and methods.
The one glimmer of hope within these videos was the guy on the far right (screen right) who seemed to actually be at least interested in this topic. He was reading most of the time while the others yapped and saying stuff that sounded like he was actually comprehending a little bit of it and maybe thinking this isn’t so bad, actually. My prediction: he’ll jump ship 😂
Neither CM or MP is perfect. You have all authority to raise your own child as you please. God Bless America for basic human privileges.
It’s not the choosing between the two that is irksome. It’s the total lack of study of any CM writings. They obviously failed in their preparation. Even people who disagree with CM are in agreement with how poorly this was done.
I’ve been waiting for this!!!!
Sorry it was so inaccurate and misleading 😢 Find some resources by Karen Glass to get a truly well researched evaluation of Charlotte Mason!
@ no, I would actually agree with MP. Despite the majority of the comments section, it comes down to radical philosophy. The radical philosophies are different between Mason and MP Classical. If you judge them by their output or branches you’ll get a lot of overlap, but at the core they come from different places. I think a lot of people are just offended.
@@dryerfire5384that’s mostly because MP is neoclassical, not classical.
@@rahimeting8774 For what reason do you believe MP is neoclassical?
@@dryerfire5384I’m pretty sure the people commenting aren’t true MP followers. They were probably told in their Facebook groups about these episodes, and came in hard for the attack (I’m here because of a post in a MP group 😂😂).
I can’t speak for or against MP in regards to these episodes. Even though I use many of their materials I wouldn’t consider myself a true classical educator. And I haven’t studied CM deeply either. But I realize MP is biased and really wouldn’t expect much else. They believe deeply in their philosophy and want others to follow it as well.
Autumn Kern from the Commonplace RUclips channel did a wonderful series on the 20 principles for anyone interested in a short explanation of the principles and how they fit in the classical tradition.
Such a dissapointing converstion...I've never listened to this podcast but was interested in memoria press before and am interested in charlotte mason also...trying to figure out the differences...also listen to the commonplace on youtube sometimes...kind of sad to see them talking about a topic that they seem to have no knowledge about....if they actually did their homework, I think the conversation would be different. They straight up just make up their own ideas and interpretations of what they think charlotte mason is.
Classical education has never been child-centered or child-led! That is a progressive idea. Charlotte Mason's pedagogy is child-centered, I do believe the podcasters were mistaken in calling CM child-led. I am in my 18th year of homeschooling and remember the days when CM purists balked (and rightly so!) at the notion CM was classical. I am not totally sure why CMers felt the need to try to make CM something it is not.
CM is not child centered. It is idea centered. The heart of a classical education is also idea centered.
Can you do CC next?? 👀
Hopefully they would invite someone from Classical Conversations onto the show to interview. I would love to see a series of discussions about other classical homeschooling models/companies. Be friends with your competitors and invite them onto the podcast. It helps homeschooling families learn and discern to have these discussions with experts.
😂 I think they'll need a vacation after touching this nerve