Edit: As pointed out by viewers, the woodgrain on the TVT in the magazine photo does appear to be different from the one I have, lending credence to the idea Grant built more than one TV Typewriter.. or case at least. Whether the guts got swapped around I don't know.. this one had its boards all tossed in there and some parts pillaged. Thanks for your patience on this one! Was a bit more difficult than I thought to produce, and for some reason it took eons to render. It was originally 2 hours but I decided to edit it down a bit and give the extra to my patrons (thank you patrons!). I don't do unscripted videos too often! Sorry for the ums and 'so yeahs'. Bad habit. Might make tshirts out of those two phrases! 😂
Bummer that it's not the one in the Kilobyte article, but it being the prototype for that one is cool. And since your TVT and Mark-8 came from the same auction (iirc) and have exact same Dyno label types, the Kilobyte article helps tie your TVT and the Mark-8 together as made by the same person (especially since Kilobyte has a photo your Mark-8 too). That matched pair makes a really nice historically significant set.
@@soupwizard Yes its quite close.. the placement of the dymo labels and buttons kind of fooled me. To my eye the labels that are there look to be in identical locations, even the special button labels. But the Kilobaud unit is missing a screw on the left side, and the wood/veneer grain is definitely different. He could have rebuilt it I suppose if it got smashed or something but doesn't seem likely. It does seem like he may have built two TVTs from the Micro-8 notes I found, so maybe one of these was the school unit and one was home.
I was just thinking that woodgrain could be compared. Interesting that it looks different. Could the two sides have been simply swapped? They are simply the mirror to one another aren't they? How well does it disassemble? If easy, i can imagine Grant having done so many times and not taken care of putting the sides in the same spot than they were taken from. Or maybe the woodgrain doesn't even match when swapped? Its also entirely possible he needed to replace the side panels at some point. Sadly all is possible.
@@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365 Yeah the 'wood' is just a veneer on the plywood. It's certainly possible sides got swapped or it got sanded down or such. I didn't mention in the video but two of the four standoffs for the motherboard were missing.. so stuff could have been swapped all over. The sides appear to be glued.. so a swap would only have likely happened if it git smashed. Which.. at a school.. who knows..
Speaking as a historian, I agree. The historicity of artifacts shows in their physical condition; if you go out of your way to make them shiny and sparkling, you would take that away from them. The best would to restore their functionality but leave their looks as it is.
I think it would be a shame if these machines never worked again, so I think any restoration in the name of functionality is justifiable. Cosmetically you could go either way, but I would try to preserve the original condition wherever reasonable. As a certified vintage keyboard guy I think retrobriting the keycaps on the KBD 1 would be a mistake as these keycaps aren't particularly yellow and retrobrite can go wrong, and from my understanding it is at best a temporary fix.
Many thanks! Yes I've always been a bit hesitant about retrobrite.. some time ago I read something that suggested retrobriting could potentially change the chemical structure of the plastic and make it weaker. I worry the real effects might not be known for years.. after which it would be too late.
If it were my decision, I would do a through repair of the the machines to bring them back to full working condition to actually make them usable. But I would leave the cosmetics alone so not to ruin their vintage/antique look.
Hey Brad, it's John! I am so happy to see this video come out. Just the giddy look you gave in the intro just fills me with joy and I just couldn't wait to finish the video before leaving a comment. I've been waiting in anticipation for this, especially still after the *STEAL* you got these machines for! Edit: Finally finished watching. Seeing the history you found of the original builder was awesome! I cannot wait to see any future videos featuring these projects! It'd be great if they were restored in working order, but I think keeping the cosmetic age of the chassis keeps it truly authentic.
Right?? Thanks so much for the tip off! Now I'm on a quest to see if I can locate the actual one in the Kilobaud photo, which viewers has different woodgrain and other features compared to this one. Would be amazing if he built a few of these!
@@TechTimeTraveller I'm inclined to think it's the same one - if it went anything like my projects, it might have been a "work in progress" for quite a few years, with various parts being taken out and redone
I think Grant did build two of the TVT, and the one you have is the first one he built and the one in the Kilobaud photo is the school one. If you stop the video at 24:04, and also zoom in on the TVT image from the Kilobaud article, the left side wood grain doesn't match up to grain of the one in the photo. Zooming in on the photo more I can see the order of the switches is different between the video and the photo too: The video has Local, Back, Cursor, Repeat, Protect, while the Kilobaud photo has Fwd?/Back, Cursor/Off?, Repeat, Write?/Save?, Remote/Local. I think he built your TVT, got it working, used with the Mark-8 that you have, and built a second for the school to access the Nova minicomputer. And since people would see the school one more, he made it look better - professional switch labels, and (just a guess) the metal is unpainted and polished since you can see more reflections in the photo. This is super interesting to me since I used to live in Santa Barbara, and one of my friends there today lives a couple of miles from the Santa Barbara high school (attended there in the 80's). He says the school probably didn't have a DG Nova onsite, but rather they likely rented time on one from a local timeshare company. In the 60's and 70's Goleta (just north of SB) had many defense contracting companies (including Raytheon) and thus a lot of engineers interested in the computing field. PolyMorphic Computers was a startup that made an S100 computer called the Poly-88, there was a software vendor called Pickles & Trout that sold a version of CP/M for the TRS-80 computers - in a way SB/Goleta was a kind of tiny silicon valley tech hub.
Yeah given he called it out as a timeshare system, and that they were interested in offline editing at all, suggested to me it was rented time. If they had their own minicomputer just sitting there, the main use would just be to reduce student downtime as they took turns running their programs. On a timeshare system it's a massive cost saving.
I'd say the note Grant left inside the TVT wasn't for himself, but for its new maintainer! :) Personally, I'd do the minimal required to get it back to safe happy functionality, and perhaps flatten the dents/bends in the cover-panels. But I wouldn't want to lose Grant's hand-worn paintwork or replace the original embossed labels.
Yes I think the intent of the labels was definitely for others' benefit. I'm guessing since we know he used a TVT for his school maybe the note and labels were directed at his students.
Wow...just, wow. What a haul. Grats to you. That TVT really scratches every itch, doesn't it? The woodwork with the scalloped vent holes, the impossibly clean cutout around the keyboard (how many of these old homebrews have we seen where it looks the panel cutouts were gnawed by a wolverine?). Those fantastic rocker switches. Slot headed screws, and even countersunk on the metal panels. Beautiful, just beautiful. Whatever you do, don't try to repaint it. It'll never look right again.
Thanks!! It is an impressive piece. It's always interesting to me how many hobbyists back then were also good woodworkers and metalsmiths. If there were more than one built, it could be that this TVT was the one that went in for school use, hence the rough exterior.. maybe the one in Kilobaud was his personal unit.
your tech time capsules are so awesome to hear about. Being in tech as my profession my entire adult life its really cool to hear about the pioneers that paved the way for our modern world. I will be there with you when you restore these to life, it will be great to see them come to life once again. They are in the right persons hands, you will be the best steward of these pieces of history. For what its worth I think you should just get it working, the cosmetics are better left showing the wear, mileage adds character.
I don't think it'll help you find anything else about him but the guy that made this thing's full name was Edward Grant Runyan, I found on Google Books his address with the name Runyan, Edward G.was in the California Avocado Society Year Book for several years, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to realize that G could be Grant and Edward wasn't someone else that was related to him.
The town of Carpinteria, just south of Santa Barbara, had many commercial avocado farms in the past, so that checks out. They still have some avocado production, but a lot of land has been turned into housing. afaik they still have a yearly Avocado Festival where you can buy avocado ice cream. (it's good - not great not terrible, just tastes mostly like vanilla with a faint avocado taste)
@@soupwizard He appears to have had several acres the parcel his house was on was actually split in 1987 to create the parcels that all the newer houses on the street were built on. Maybe he had enough space for a little avocado farm.
Those embossed labels bring back some memories of gadgets my Grandfather who was a Physics Teacher/Ham Radio guy would make. In the early seventies he made a remote control + guts for a TV. My 5yo self... mind blown. I wonder Grant and him (1912 bday) ever exchanged QSL cards.
@@remigiusznowak7277 whisky 7 devious. I'll let you dissect the puzzle. (I if ever make a cask conditioned beer I will use his sign as the name.) I was a bit surprise the internet has him listed in internet archive ham radio call books and FCC radio licensees.
Halfway through. Enjoying this quite a bit! I think you should functionally reatore them. But only minimally visually restore things. Give them a good clean and maybe replace the missing keys if you can, but keep the paint wear that it's accumulated over time.
Back in the 80s certain people would transmit software ( primary Commodore 64) over ham radio across the world like a phone modem, have a guy that would crack and then other guys to spread it around the world
I still have a whole stack of kilobaud magazine! It was a great publication! I learned the basics of computers, programming, and electronic construction from this mag!
I'm just impressed that people in the 1970s had absolutely no issue with having their home addresses published in a newsletter for all to see... also that someone could afford a house in that neighborhood in Santa Barbara in 1976 on a high school teacher's salary
Correct those electrolytic caps are axial. You don't see those so much anymore. The colorful cap next to the big chip is called a tropical fish cap by pedal builders (guitar effects pedals). Lots of carbon comp resistors which also help date it.
400 board sets for a small PCB fab would have been a *huge* order - It is quite reasonable for them to have multiple providers of PCB stock available that they passed through their processes. Remember, in the early days, there was no CNC - Every hole was hand drilled. with a vertical drill, aligned by using a microscope that zoomed on where the drill would come through. I know, because I was involved in a fab in the 80's, and it was manual then. We couldn't do through hole - That was a telltale between the huge fab houses and the small people.
Thank you for this awesome insight. Yes I figured PCB fabs would have supply from various manufacturers.. certainly makes sense. It's been a pet project of mine figuring out the 'marks' of the various substrate makers.. uop (union oil products), tc (taylorclad), etc. I've been trying to figure out whose mark is W or M - they were used on a lot of SWTPC gear. Knowing these has helped me seek out new old PCB stock to make more authentic looking replicas. There's something about the old translucent green.. I've had people argue they still make it that way today but I've yet to find a modern manufacturer that does. Usually brown or yellow green.
Plywood and sheet metal just screams the 1970s. A visit to the local hardware store (no Home Depot or Lowe's yet) for supplies and a few hours of sawing, drilling and soldering. Hehehe... Nowadays you would 3D print a case. While awesome (and easy), it just doesn't have the same coolness factor as a case like this one.
lol. Imagine a 1970's Voodoo 0 board that took input from a RS-232 serial port with embedded control codes in the messages and used the control codes to render 300x200 graphics out on a video connector to be displayed on a tv!
@TechTimeTraveller AXial leads go through the AXis of the capacitor's cylinder, so they are exactly centered and have to come out opposite ends; RADial leads are distributed around the RADius of the circular footprint of the part (like the pins in a DIN plug or the leads on a vacuum tube), and so they can all come out the same end. It's harder to see the radial nature of the leads when there are only 2, but they're symmetrically off-center so it's technically correct.
18:14 am i the only one who thinks its strange that someone born in 1914 using computers on a advanced level. my great grandmother was born in 1918 i liked her but she was not from this world. i had a hard time trying to talk to her i tried to explain video games to her but it as impossible. she even had troubles using things like microwave ovens and dishwashers. she tried to tell me about her childhood i didn't even believe her because it was medieval like. even technology that technically existed back then like cars and glow lamps where a rarity according to her.
I think minimally restoring them to functionality would be wonderful. It's not like you don't have a pristine unbuilt Mark 8 and your own beautifully restored TVT + the later modified one. I think this TVT connected to the Mark 8 it was built to talk to would be the best thing you could do for it - It's exactly what Mr. Runyan wanted of it, and while he may be gone his dream does not have to be left so desolate. I hope someday someone will stumble upon this video or later videos in the process and stop to think "That's grandpa's computer!"
Amazing pieces of personal computing history. I remember reading the construction articles back in the 70s and dreamed of building them both, but was too poor as I was just a teen back then.
At 6:48, I noticed that one of my old high school teachers was listed. Don Singer from Forest Grove High School. He was a math / typing / computer science teacher back when my brother and I was still in school.
Brad, really nice job on the video ... I think the quality of videos on topics such as this really shines when there is so much personal interest and enthusiasm about the topic! I am sure if Grant were around today, he would be extremely happy that these pieces ended up in your collection and knowing they were in such good hands. On the question of cosmetic restoration I would definitely vote for leaving as is. I have done some retrobriting/repainting of computers that were not as rare as these and, while it's nice to have them look like the did in their hay day, it takes away from the history to some degree. All of the dents and dings are part of the 40+ year history, so I would leave them. Again, nice job on the video and looking forward to see where you go from here with the TVT and Mark 8.
I have a large Bindered group of Byte Magz and 8080 Users group Hardware , Basic programs and Paper computer rags of the day . Someday soon I need to get it to another Curator as I am Worried about Keeping a Roof over the Stuff and my Head as I age , so I might have to sell most of it , Hopefully to the Right Person or people :\ QC
I remember getting that 1974 Radio Electronics magazine and being so excited by the idea that I could have my own computer. Too young and not enough experience to make it but about 2 years later my dad brought home an Aim-65 single board computer from Rockwell and my love of all things computing took off. After a 40 year career in computers, I am so glad I went down this path. It has always been rewarding and exciting. At least from a technological standpoint. 😊
It's pretty amazing to get to see the personal project of someone who was truly one of Wozniak's peers. I didnt really even know about computers until four or five years later as a 10 or 11 year old and this era of computing has fascinated me since i was in my late teens.
Could you add "#shorts" to the title of your shorts, please? My, and others, interaction with RUclips is through notifications, and the only way to tell the shorts apart is either the title or the thumbnail, which is not always clear 🙂 And in other news, I'll watch whis one later, can't wait to hear those sexy red levers click!
I'm partial to that way of thinking too. When I was into vintage cars I preferred vehicles that had perhaps faded or scratched paint that was original vs new. Something about looking at the original thing just works for me.
@@TechTimeTraveller The market agrees with you; it may not have occurred to you that what applies to antiques on the Antiques Roadshow would also apply to cars and old electronic equipment, but certainly a fresh coat of paint has ruined the value of many an antique.
This video is my new favorite thing. I encourage you to go read Don Lancaster books. Buy em’ or find them online but either way you gain a lot of insight into his work. I also have read a lot of other authors from the same time period and it’s very clear a lot of authors based books off his work. Some, just out right cite the book Don Lancaster wrote where they found the information in their own books text.
Really loved this video- I think breaking it up into two sections at that 51 minute mark would have been a better choice. I'm looking forward to seeing more about the TV typewriter modifications. I'm really keen on making one up myself at some point, but the shift registers are a bit of a sticking point for me, I've not found anywhere that does them.
@@TechTimeTravellerThanks! I might hit them up. I finished up making the Tele-tennis project from Popular Electronics around the same era, that was a really challenging project none of the of the values and timings quite came out as they were supposed to in the article. Loved the video by the way! :D
don lancaster through the years inspied me. but I foud out on my own that memory mmapped video was faster for a terminal and got the VIO board from IMASI witch was so fast with word star on my wire wrapped z80 S100 at the time got 4 k memory Imsi boards at first then orhers, Dma controller and DT8 8: drives, lost it all in storage sad. but im 73 now and I know you cant take it all with you.
Yeah, one thing I didn't realise at all until I built an Apple 1 clone that did output in the same way (via a 6821, but talking to a microcontroller emulating the video subsystem) was that updating that shift register memory was _slow._ The shift registers in that system went around once per frame, so you could send a character to the display only once per frame. Sixty characters per second is only about 600 bps which, if you've ever used a 300 or 1200 bps modem, you know is not exactly fast.
It can only be original once. I literally felt my chest tightening up when you were talking about painting it lol. Fantastic video, what a treasure you have found!
Thank you. Yes that's kind of my philosophy. I always feel a bit queasy with cosmetic restorations because while they make the thing more visually appealing they demolish some of the history. As it is I can say the TV Typewriter's paint is probably the same that Mr. Runyan applied way back when.
Fantastic discoveries and I love the human connection. I come from electronic music and am also fascinated by previous owners of my earlier gear and fascinating to see SSM boards. I am sure Mr Runyan would be surprised to say the least and hopefully pleased. Subscribed :-)
@@TechTimeTraveller It might be another Hitachi model that uses the same chassis: the one in the TVT article is a Hitachi P-04, the text says: "the most desirableis the Hitachi P-04 and has the Hitachi SX chassis ... The SX chassis is also used on models P-03, P-05, P-08, P-53, P-63, S-47, and several others." I found a photo of a P-05 and it looks like the one in the Kilobaud TVT article, no model number on front so no way to tell which model the photo has other than by looks.
I saw a plan written up from an IBM employee in the 70s proposing they sell APL terminals (with the special keyboards of course) and charge people for time connected to a single mainframe in each city/town, like a "utility". It was a sort of dystopian version of what became the "internet", well, dystopian in the sense that IBM would own every second of computer time and resources.
@@squirlmy It wasn't dystopian, it was what EVERY computer company did with the limited technology of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymnet I have news for you - big companies still own everything. Who hosts this video? APL is too difficult for home users, by the way.
This is so wonderful, it's a reminder that computer history isn't just the machines, it's the stories they tell or hide of their time and the people involved with them.
Looks to me like someone tried to pick up or move the Mark-8 while it was still wired into the power supply. No doubt that power supply Grant had was heavy! To me, the Mark-8 is too much of an artefact and too bespoke to get working again without undoing or destroying its originality. Of course it would be *wonderful* to see it humming happily again. Oh, and I remember axial capacitors as being the ones that are arranged like an "axle" on a car (sort of). Fantastic video!
I have a copy of the book TV TYPEWRITER COOKBOOK By Don Lancaster, it's a Howard W. Sams Publication First Edition First Printing 1976. It has a green cover, it's paperback. You might be able to find a copy online either Ebay, or maybe an online book seller. I acquired my copy years ago for $ 4.75. I found it on a sale table at a Radio Shack store.
Great video. I followed every step of this era - at the time! mmBYTE,Kilobaud and the others. I learned so much - starting with TTL, stepping through CMOS, into the earliest LSI chips. Built Signetics and Zilog hobby stuff, worked with and for DEC (PDP8 and 11 / VAXen), did driver work for Zilog, stumbled around the computer and TV industry for 30+ years… loved every second of it. Used DG, SGI and other platforms. Wrote some PC software for the TV industry in 2001 that has grown, and is the top product in that vertical market ever since (but my business partner cheated me out after six years) 😔 The whole scene was very small - and personal. We were all learning.
I'm probably a bit older than the Tech Time Traveller, so... it was important to IBM to have their PCs called "Personal Computers," in the 80s, as opposed to a "home computer" or "microcomputer". This is going back to the first "DOS" PC, not just Windows, and I think they'd have trademarked the term if they could have. Years before that(1977), the Atari 2600 was a VCS: "Video Computer System" which is funny, looking back, because it didn't have keyboard and was strictly a "game system". Also in the 80s, Apple and Apple owners of Apple I, II, IIe and IIc's and Macs were very proud that their microcomputers were NOT PCs! It wasn't really such a matter of pride for C64s, Sinclairs, old Heathkits, etc. Then the "clones" came starting with Compaq, taking over the market very quickly within a couple of years. IBM wanted people to keep calling these work-a-likes "clones," and not "Personal Computers" or "PCs", but of course people are lazy, and saw no reason to differentiate their clones from "real" PCs. I grew up and went to uni with an Apple IIe. My university had VAX "minicomputers", and I certainly at the time, I and my friends called everything that pre-dated the IBM PC either a "home computer" or a "microcomputer", "personal computer" only got special use beginning with IBM's. We would have discussed the first "microcomputer", if the subject came up. So it's kind of sweet revenge to think IBM lost their battles and now just about every microcomputer system is called a "personal computer". But, it's still hard not to think of "PCs" as anything but 8088 and x86 machines, I go with "microcomputer", myself.
The edges of that note don't look to be chewed by mice. That appears to be the work of cockroaches, sorry. They sometimes use paper fibers mixed with saliva to conceal their egg cases-- a sort of a roachy Papier-mâché.
Axial caps have leads on different ends of the capacitor. Radial has leads both on the same end. I would try to restore the the TVTW to operating condition as it might have looked when the original owner had been using it, minus some years of wear and tear. I may be wrong, but I think IBM coined the term "Personal Computer", and then everyone else applied that term to THEIR designs. Today,, I think the tern "PC" defines the type of computer that has the original IBM PC as its ancestor. So what is a "Personal Computer"? Probably anything that fits the use case of the original IBM PC. This would include the Apple II, Macintosh, C64, and all other mass market machines sold to the home and small office market. While the early Altair, Imsai, SWTPC, OSI, and other S100/SS50 bus based systems (this includes the Heathkit H8) felt like Personal Computers, they were designed to look like older 'mini computers' such as the PDP-8, PDP-11, or NOVA. These were 'Hobby' computers, some (such as the Imsai/Altair and other S100 machines) were used in early industrial applications. The Mark 8 was never a kit. It was described in a Radio Electronics magazine and the PC artwork was available in an info packet from the author. A VERY limited number of PC boards were sold by the author, and the builder had to source their own parts.
The battle over " The First Personal Computer " is a battle that will continue for many years to come. There are endless opinions on this subject, not to mention a lot of convoluted historical claims to fame. So this will go on and on for many many years.
Mark-8 seems like a good computer for a replica project. Just. Looking for a project here. May be too big of a bite for me though. Will need to think. Just mind boggling to think people did these in the day. Without the help of the internet and way more difficult access to components. Well you are getting the authentic looking for components experience since you really need the exact ones. I'm settling for the authentic experience of gobbling together whatever i can, even though it's way way easier now. This may be the project. It may also not. Haven't finished my previous electronics project yet so not going to start the next one. But it's nearing completion. If of interest, it's an arduino project. So nope not retro, and not close to the metal stuff.
Also .. nobody back then would have entered a 5KB program via switches back then. People were more patient back then, but even if you take 3 seconds per byte that would be 5 hours, same for checking again, and it would be gone when switching off. Also those switches were usually only rated for a few 10000 actuations, so ... You keyed in paper tape loader of a few tens of bytes, and then loaded the program from tape. If you wanted something with more error checking and maybe the ability to load into different memory areas .. you still used that and loaded the better loader from tape, too.
19:05 Hmm, might have gone into narcotics manufacturing with one of his students after retirement, rumor has it the Mark-8 controlling his M60 caused his demise in 1984
How very cool! The Mark-8 Minicomputer is a machine that has fascinated me for a few reasons, partly because it's an 8008 instead of 8080-based machine, and partly because it had so little time to shine. I do hope you are able to restore both machines to working order! After all, computers were meant to compute! And, well, I'd like to see some videos of a Mark-8 in use. 🙂
In your search for vintage/antique parts/components that are no longer in production and that have been out of production for many many years, you most likely will end up trying to find components that are either electrically the same or can be added to so they function the same as the original components.
I'd restore the TVT functionality but leave most of the cosmetics alone. One thing I'd be tempted to do is swap your complete and good condition keyboard in given the rough condition of the TVT keyboard
I think it would be best if the missing chips would be replaced by same chips, but NOT missing. The broken connector replaced, and then make a nice wooden cabinet for it. Give this Mark 8 a home he could never dream of. This leaves us in a philosophical dilemma: can computers dream in their free time. I can give you an answer on that, It is my theory that all logical chips are made out of metals, semiconducting materials, isolators and something special: pieces of wondering souls. How else could stupid machines have made a decision, committed logic to questions. And since we never are certain about the originals of the souls that were used for the logic chips, it could have been the old souls of Chinese factory workers or loved ones closer by. Every computer is a new home for an old soul, and therefore every cabinet for a computer must be made with beauty, because every computer with logic chips is some sort of a temple, it is a shrine! That is why I am personally working on a nice wooden cabinet for my replica 6502 computer. Sanding it, painting it, and polishing it till it shines. You never know who's souls is in it!
I would get everything working.The TVT I would straighten all the metal and fix/replace the keyboard. If you do decide to paint it mask off the labels but the wear is part of it's history.
I woud consider the parts were "used" by the school on Display as an example for a early Computer maybe up to the mid 90s and than survived in somehow forgoten in a corner...
Not very long ago, I got lucky and found both of the books Don Lancaster wrote about the TV Typewriter. I don't know if I'll ever do anything with them, but they have made a nice addition to my reference library.
Yeah, that's the same computer as in the newsletter, back in those days you did not have the resources to build... two computers. Sourcing the parts and just getting one was enough. You can be pretty sure it's the same computer. Once you got your hands on one computer, you were on it full time... it's like getting your first sportscar, you're going to drive it and love it... you have no time or interest to build a second one... at least not that soon. Only when it starts to show it's age and become obsolete and you're forced to move on... or upgrade... or build something new... or buy something new. The 1976 references not when he first got it working or demoed or used, but when he built a case for it and finally considered it "finished" and presentable by building a case for it and clicking out the labels at the same time to label the switches. The 1976 is the year he was clicking the Dymo labeler to make the labels. It's not like he would of remembered the first date he first read the article, bought the parts, soldered it up, or first got it working... so.. 1976 right then and there he could be sure of so klack it out on the labeler. It's close enough. It as so fringe, we didn't think any of it was ever going... anywhere. We were just freaks and electronic nerds. Pretty much the weirdos and loners in your local high school off in their own world. It wasn't a special time, it swwcked. We wanted a real computer and had hungry brains and were hungry for information. We would of traded it all in an instance to have anything available today off the shelf or any tiny slice of the internet even though a line webbrowser, never mind the ability to display video... across the internet.
I look forward to more videos about these machines, I remember both of them from the days when I had a subscription to Radio Electronics. That was a really good magazine I just wish they had not gone out of business.
Easy enough to tape off the labels instead of removing them if you want to re-paint the case of the TV typewriter. IMO it's more important to preserve the guts untouched rather then the shell, and I would definately re-paint it, and maybe try to seal off or hide the gaps as well although that might be a step too far. Forget retrobriting the keys, they look great, just clean their contacts underneath and paint the case would be my choice. Grats on your amazing score!
A friend gave me his osi Superboard II and I just fixed it. Comes up with 1977 BASIC prompt. Very similar where I only got the board with a keyboard on it and had to build your own case. He included the case his dad made.
I found the archaeology aspect of this very interesting - reminds me a bit of this (sort of) - ruclips.net/video/Ux_hn4m2jyY/видео.html - you've got the actual hardware that he built though. super neat
Restoring functionality is a given. Though I feel cosmetic repairs is something that should be done for these as well. A lot of the damage has clearly come from storage and not the use of the machine itself, unless Grant Runyan was very careless with his machine which I very much doubt. He seemed to have cared for this project a lot. He made a custom case for it to make it presentable and I'd think that's how he'd want it to be seen. Its a similar thing to what Museums do with restorations. They might get old medieval chainmails that are missing links, and they actually replace them but try to match them as best they possibly can. But they also make sure to document all of this. So the items are preserved in video or photography form in the way they appeared when they got to the museum, and then people doing restoration document what parts were replaced and repaired, should they be wished to remove or alter for the future so that the original parts aren't removed. It would be a process but keeping the original panels with the labels would be an option and then just make a recreation in the same color and same print labels just all new and fresh. Either that or touching up his original parts. But with the risk of damaging labels and restoring of discolored plastics, metals and paints that might be a hard thing to pull off.
Wane Green was founder and editor of 73 magazine so it makes sense that some of the contributors to Kilobaud would also be contributors to 73 magazine.
Well, if the tv typewriter were mine, I would do everything I could do get it back into operating condition, repairing/replacing the parts that due to age are no longer functioning, especially the keyboard and the power cord. And as far as the case it is in, I would just leave it as it is as it has a lot of history . I would replace any missing screws just to keep it together.
57:20 4004 was really the first consumer cpu that was offered on a single chip, usa military had em all thru the 1960s, how apollo landed on the moon 250,000 miles away. before single chip cpus you had a multi lsi or vlsi system or a very large dip package 48-72pins , and split alu, registers, and io over 2-3 chips Cpu were made before you had a standard of 8 bits in a byte, and you measured memory in words, before bits nibbles and bytes and octal Look at computers before 1970s all the mainframes were all weird architectures, 10, 12, 16, 24, 36 bit cpus were around since wwii just got smaller and faster and efficient, also better instruction sets What yall think they (usa) used to crunch numbers to make nukes?
Those aluminum plates remind me of the old aluminum photo print used at the local newspaper back when they printed their own papers instead of sending them off to be printed. They used the plates once then tossed them, lost of folk about town had sheds lined with these plates to keep out the cold North Dakota winds.
Build a new plexiglas / acryl case for it, with your newer keyboard. conserve the old case as it is as best as possibly, you you can revert it to its original state whenever needed. ;)
On the TYT, i'd leave the paint alone (other than a gentle clean), but carefully hammer/flatten out the dents, as those appear to be from poor storage or an accident, not from personal use.
I swear this first era of home computing feels close and personal compared to anything made after. Aside from old companies like IBM, everybody else making these things were new companies or individuals. I don't think there's ever been another era like it since. I was born in the late 90s so I definitely didn't experience what it was like, although you can still find hobbyists making their own devices today and have those same sort of WIP newsletters, so the hobbyist scene never left but rather the industry blew up and advanced rapidly.
Edit: As pointed out by viewers, the woodgrain on the TVT in the magazine photo does appear to be different from the one I have, lending credence to the idea Grant built more than one TV Typewriter.. or case at least. Whether the guts got swapped around I don't know.. this one had its boards all tossed in there and some parts pillaged.
Thanks for your patience on this one! Was a bit more difficult than I thought to produce, and for some reason it took eons to render. It was originally 2 hours but I decided to edit it down a bit and give the extra to my patrons (thank you patrons!). I don't do unscripted videos too often! Sorry for the ums and 'so yeahs'. Bad habit. Might make tshirts out of those two phrases! 😂
Bummer that it's not the one in the Kilobyte article, but it being the prototype for that one is cool. And since your TVT and Mark-8 came from the same auction (iirc) and have exact same Dyno label types, the Kilobyte article helps tie your TVT and the Mark-8 together as made by the same person (especially since Kilobyte has a photo your Mark-8 too). That matched pair makes a really nice historically significant set.
@@soupwizard Yes its quite close.. the placement of the dymo labels and buttons kind of fooled me. To my eye the labels that are there look to be in identical locations, even the special button labels. But the Kilobaud unit is missing a screw on the left side, and the wood/veneer grain is definitely different. He could have rebuilt it I suppose if it got smashed or something but doesn't seem likely. It does seem like he may have built two TVTs from the Micro-8 notes I found, so maybe one of these was the school unit and one was home.
I was just thinking that woodgrain could be compared.
Interesting that it looks different. Could the two sides have been simply swapped? They are simply the mirror to one another aren't they? How well does it disassemble? If easy, i can imagine Grant having done so many times and not taken care of putting the sides in the same spot than they were taken from.
Or maybe the woodgrain doesn't even match when swapped?
Its also entirely possible he needed to replace the side panels at some point.
Sadly all is possible.
@@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365 Yeah the 'wood' is just a veneer on the plywood. It's certainly possible sides got swapped or it got sanded down or such. I didn't mention in the video but two of the four standoffs for the motherboard were missing.. so stuff could have been swapped all over. The sides appear to be glued.. so a swap would only have likely happened if it git smashed. Which.. at a school.. who knows..
He may have repaired or modified the case at some point.
I think you should restore them to functionality, but leave the cosmetic damage alone
I was gonna comment the same thing. Definitely the best of both worlds
Totally agree.
Speaking as a historian, I agree. The historicity of artifacts shows in their physical condition; if you go out of your way to make them shiny and sparkling, you would take that away from them. The best would to restore their functionality but leave their looks as it is.
should be in a museum
@@Neodestro Insert the sound effect of the crack of a bullwhip and an epic movie soundtrack...
I think it would be a shame if these machines never worked again, so I think any restoration in the name of functionality is justifiable. Cosmetically you could go either way, but I would try to preserve the original condition wherever reasonable. As a certified vintage keyboard guy I think retrobriting the keycaps on the KBD 1 would be a mistake as these keycaps aren't particularly yellow and retrobrite can go wrong, and from my understanding it is at best a temporary fix.
Many thanks! Yes I've always been a bit hesitant about retrobrite.. some time ago I read something that suggested retrobriting could potentially change the chemical structure of the plastic and make it weaker. I worry the real effects might not be known for years.. after which it would be too late.
What a find. Thank you so much for researching this history
Great find! I think that a not too invasive repair is a good thing. I would leave the cosmetics alone, they add a lot to the machine!
Now you need to buy that TV and convert it for the complete package!
If it were my decision, I would do a through repair of the the machines to bring them back to full working condition to actually make them usable. But I would leave the cosmetics alone so not to ruin their vintage/antique look.
That's kind of where I'm at I think.
Don't repaint that case!!!
Just reassemble it. Do the repairs needed. You will destroy it if you repaint, Most value will be lost :(
Hey Brad, it's John!
I am so happy to see this video come out. Just the giddy look you gave in the intro just fills me with joy and I just couldn't wait to finish the video before leaving a comment. I've been waiting in anticipation for this, especially still after the *STEAL* you got these machines for!
Edit: Finally finished watching. Seeing the history you found of the original builder was awesome! I cannot wait to see any future videos featuring these projects! It'd be great if they were restored in working order, but I think keeping the cosmetic age of the chassis keeps it truly authentic.
Right?? Thanks so much for the tip off! Now I'm on a quest to see if I can locate the actual one in the Kilobaud photo, which viewers has different woodgrain and other features compared to this one. Would be amazing if he built a few of these!
@@TechTimeTraveller I'm inclined to think it's the same one - if it went anything like my projects, it might have been a "work in progress" for quite a few years, with various parts being taken out and redone
I think Grant did build two of the TVT, and the one you have is the first one he built and the one in the Kilobaud photo is the school one. If you stop the video at 24:04, and also zoom in on the TVT image from the Kilobaud article, the left side wood grain doesn't match up to grain of the one in the photo. Zooming in on the photo more I can see the order of the switches is different between the video and the photo too: The video has Local, Back, Cursor, Repeat, Protect, while the Kilobaud photo has Fwd?/Back, Cursor/Off?, Repeat, Write?/Save?, Remote/Local.
I think he built your TVT, got it working, used with the Mark-8 that you have, and built a second for the school to access the Nova minicomputer. And since people would see the school one more, he made it look better - professional switch labels, and (just a guess) the metal is unpainted and polished since you can see more reflections in the photo.
This is super interesting to me since I used to live in Santa Barbara, and one of my friends there today lives a couple of miles from the Santa Barbara high school (attended there in the 80's). He says the school probably didn't have a DG Nova onsite, but rather they likely rented time on one from a local timeshare company. In the 60's and 70's Goleta (just north of SB) had many defense contracting companies (including Raytheon) and thus a lot of engineers interested in the computing field. PolyMorphic Computers was a startup that made an S100 computer called the Poly-88, there was a software vendor called Pickles & Trout that sold a version of CP/M for the TRS-80 computers - in a way SB/Goleta was a kind of tiny silicon valley tech hub.
Good job seeing that the wood grain did not match. I was going to bring that up.
Also, the screw placement, and the types used.
Yeah given he called it out as a timeshare system, and that they were interested in offline editing at all, suggested to me it was rented time. If they had their own minicomputer just sitting there, the main use would just be to reduce student downtime as they took turns running their programs. On a timeshare system it's a massive cost saving.
The difgerent wood grain caught my eye too. Didn't see the different labels though.
" you never truly die until the last time someone remembers (or researches) you"
That hits me in so many ways right now!
I'd say the note Grant left inside the TVT wasn't for himself, but for its new maintainer! :)
Personally, I'd do the minimal required to get it back to safe happy functionality, and perhaps flatten the dents/bends in the cover-panels. But I wouldn't want to lose Grant's hand-worn paintwork or replace the original embossed labels.
Yes I think the intent of the labels was definitely for others' benefit. I'm guessing since we know he used a TVT for his school maybe the note and labels were directed at his students.
Wow...just, wow. What a haul. Grats to you.
That TVT really scratches every itch, doesn't it? The woodwork with the scalloped vent holes, the impossibly clean cutout around the keyboard (how many of these old homebrews have we seen where it looks the panel cutouts were gnawed by a wolverine?). Those fantastic rocker switches. Slot headed screws, and even countersunk on the metal panels. Beautiful, just beautiful.
Whatever you do, don't try to repaint it. It'll never look right again.
Thanks!! It is an impressive piece. It's always interesting to me how many hobbyists back then were also good woodworkers and metalsmiths. If there were more than one built, it could be that this TVT was the one that went in for school use, hence the rough exterior.. maybe the one in Kilobaud was his personal unit.
your tech time capsules are so awesome to hear about. Being in tech as my profession my entire adult life its really cool to hear about the pioneers that paved the way for our modern world. I will be there with you when you restore these to life, it will be great to see them come to life once again. They are in the right persons hands, you will be the best steward of these pieces of history. For what its worth I think you should just get it working, the cosmetics are better left showing the wear, mileage adds character.
You are truly a Tech Time Traveller. Thank you for this wonderful insight into personal computer history.
I wouldn't repaint, remember some of those wear marks were likely made by Mr Runyan himself.
That's kind of what I'm thinking. Or if this was the one that went to the school, might be the palm prints of many 1970s students. Either way..
I don't think it'll help you find anything else about him but the guy that made this thing's full name was Edward Grant Runyan, I found on Google Books his address with the name Runyan, Edward G.was in the California Avocado Society Year Book for several years, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to realize that G could be Grant and Edward wasn't someone else that was related to him.
The town of Carpinteria, just south of Santa Barbara, had many commercial avocado farms in the past, so that checks out. They still have some avocado production, but a lot of land has been turned into housing. afaik they still have a yearly Avocado Festival where you can buy avocado ice cream. (it's good - not great not terrible, just tastes mostly like vanilla with a faint avocado taste)
@@soupwizard He appears to have had several acres the parcel his house was on was actually split in 1987 to create the parcels that all the newer houses on the street were built on. Maybe he had enough space for a little avocado farm.
Those embossed labels bring back some memories of gadgets my Grandfather who was a Physics Teacher/Ham Radio guy would make. In the early seventies he made a remote control + guts for a TV. My 5yo self... mind blown. I wonder Grant and him (1912 bday) ever exchanged QSL cards.
What was your grandpa's callsign was? I am always happy when i see ham radio mentioned
@@remigiusznowak7277 whisky 7 devious. I'll let you dissect the puzzle. (I if ever make a cask conditioned beer I will use his sign as the name.) I was a bit surprise the internet has him listed in internet archive ham radio call books and FCC radio licensees.
Absolutely do not paint it. You would be erasing the history. Just fix the electronics to make it run, but don't touch the outside.
Halfway through. Enjoying this quite a bit! I think you should functionally reatore them. But only minimally visually restore things. Give them a good clean and maybe replace the missing keys if you can, but keep the paint wear that it's accumulated over time.
Labels save my life for things I make and use, if anything ive made survives the years I hope they are appreciated and used well.
Back in the 80s certain people would transmit software ( primary Commodore 64) over ham radio across the world like a phone modem, have a guy that would crack and then other guys to spread it around the world
I still have a whole stack of kilobaud magazine! It was a great publication! I learned the basics of computers, programming, and electronic construction from this mag!
I'm just impressed that people in the 1970s had absolutely no issue with having their home addresses published in a newsletter for all to see... also that someone could afford a house in that neighborhood in Santa Barbara in 1976 on a high school teacher's salary
What cool pieces of history, thank you!
Correct those electrolytic caps are axial. You don't see those so much anymore. The colorful cap next to the big chip is called a tropical fish cap by pedal builders (guitar effects pedals). Lots of carbon comp resistors which also help date it.
400 board sets for a small PCB fab would have been a *huge* order - It is quite reasonable for them to have multiple providers of PCB stock available that they passed through their processes. Remember, in the early days, there was no CNC - Every hole was hand drilled. with a vertical drill, aligned by using a microscope that zoomed on where the drill would come through. I know, because I was involved in a fab in the 80's, and it was manual then. We couldn't do through hole - That was a telltale between the huge fab houses and the small people.
Thank you for this awesome insight. Yes I figured PCB fabs would have supply from various manufacturers.. certainly makes sense. It's been a pet project of mine figuring out the 'marks' of the various substrate makers.. uop (union oil products), tc (taylorclad), etc. I've been trying to figure out whose mark is W or M - they were used on a lot of SWTPC gear. Knowing these has helped me seek out new old PCB stock to make more authentic looking replicas. There's something about the old translucent green.. I've had people argue they still make it that way today but I've yet to find a modern manufacturer that does. Usually brown or yellow green.
Plywood and sheet metal just screams the 1970s. A visit to the local hardware store (no Home Depot or Lowe's yet) for supplies and a few hours of sawing, drilling and soldering. Hehehe... Nowadays you would 3D print a case. While awesome (and easy), it just doesn't have the same coolness factor as a case like this one.
The second RCA output is actually an input for the Voodoo 2 card. Duh! Do you know nothing about computers!?!?! Unsubbing!!!!
lol. Imagine a 1970's Voodoo 0 board that took input from a RS-232 serial port with embedded control codes in the messages and used the control codes to render 300x200 graphics out on a video connector to be displayed on a tv!
@@soupwizard A 1DFx card.
@@soupwizard You could imagine that, yes. Or you could see it for real in anything supporting NAPLPS, such as a 1978 Teledon terminal.
The Mark 8 is georgeous. It's going to take a lot to work it all out, (I have faith in you), but it will be worth it.
@TechTimeTraveller AXial leads go through the AXis of the capacitor's cylinder, so they are exactly centered and have to come out opposite ends; RADial leads are distributed around the RADius of the circular footprint of the part (like the pins in a DIN plug or the leads on a vacuum tube), and so they can all come out the same end. It's harder to see the radial nature of the leads when there are only 2, but they're symmetrically off-center so it's technically correct.
18:14 am i the only one who thinks its strange that someone born in 1914 using computers on a advanced level. my great grandmother was born in 1918 i liked her but she was not from this world. i had a hard time trying to talk to her i tried to explain video games to her but it as impossible. she even had troubles using things like microwave ovens and dishwashers. she tried to tell me about her childhood i didn't even believe her because it was medieval like. even technology that technically existed back then like cars and glow lamps where a rarity according to her.
I think minimally restoring them to functionality would be wonderful. It's not like you don't have a pristine unbuilt Mark 8 and your own beautifully restored TVT + the later modified one. I think this TVT connected to the Mark 8 it was built to talk to would be the best thing you could do for it - It's exactly what Mr. Runyan wanted of it, and while he may be gone his dream does not have to be left so desolate.
I hope someday someone will stumble upon this video or later videos in the process and stop to think "That's grandpa's computer!"
Amazing pieces of personal computing history. I remember reading the construction articles back in the 70s and dreamed of building them both, but was too poor as I was just a teen back then.
At 6:48, I noticed that one of my old high school teachers was listed. Don Singer from Forest Grove High School. He was a math / typing / computer science teacher back when my brother and I was still in school.
Brad, really nice job on the video ... I think the quality of videos on topics such as this really shines when there is so much personal interest and enthusiasm about the topic! I am sure if Grant were around today, he would be extremely happy that these pieces ended up in your collection and knowing they were in such good hands. On the question of cosmetic restoration I would definitely vote for leaving as is. I have done some retrobriting/repainting of computers that were not as rare as these and, while it's nice to have them look like the did in their hay day, it takes away from the history to some degree. All of the dents and dings are part of the 40+ year history, so I would leave them. Again, nice job on the video and looking forward to see where you go from here with the TVT and Mark 8.
I have a large Bindered group of Byte Magz and 8080 Users group Hardware , Basic programs and Paper computer rags of the day . Someday soon I need to get it to another Curator as I am Worried about Keeping a Roof over the Stuff and my Head as I age , so I might have to sell most of it , Hopefully to the Right Person or people :\ QC
I remember getting that 1974 Radio Electronics magazine and being so excited by the idea that I could have my own computer. Too young and not enough experience to make it but about 2 years later my dad brought home an Aim-65 single board computer from Rockwell and my love of all things computing took off. After a 40 year career in computers, I am so glad I went down this path. It has always been rewarding and exciting. At least from a technological standpoint. 😊
It's pretty amazing to get to see the personal project of someone who was truly one of Wozniak's peers. I didnt really even know about computers until four or five years later as a 10 or 11 year old and this era of computing has fascinated me since i was in my late teens.
So sorry to hear about your dad, My deepest sympathies.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
Could you add "#shorts" to the title of your shorts, please? My, and others, interaction with RUclips is through notifications, and the only way to tell the shorts apart is either the title or the thumbnail, which is not always clear 🙂
And in other news, I'll watch whis one later, can't wait to hear those sexy red levers click!
Done! I forgot to add it to the last couple.
So I guess you need to find that exact Television set now...
I typically don't bother with cosmetic restoration save for case parts that are completely missing
I'm partial to that way of thinking too. When I was into vintage cars I preferred vehicles that had perhaps faded or scratched paint that was original vs new. Something about looking at the original thing just works for me.
@@TechTimeTraveller The market agrees with you; it may not have occurred to you that what applies to antiques on the Antiques Roadshow would also apply to cars and old electronic equipment, but certainly a fresh coat of paint has ruined the value of many an antique.
A very touching tribute to one of thousands of unsung heroes at the dawn of home computers
Fantastic work!
This video is my new favorite thing. I encourage you to go read Don Lancaster books. Buy em’ or find them online but either way you gain a lot of insight into his work. I also have read a lot of other authors from the same time period and it’s very clear a lot of authors based books off his work. Some, just out right cite the book Don Lancaster wrote where they found the information in their own books text.
Really loved this video- I think breaking it up into two sections at that 51 minute mark would have been a better choice.
I'm looking forward to seeing more about the TV typewriter modifications. I'm really keen on making one up myself at some point, but the shift registers are a bit of a sticking point for me, I've not found anywhere that does them.
Try Electronics Expediters. That's where I got mine from years ago.
@@TechTimeTravellerThanks! I might hit them up. I finished up making the Tele-tennis project from Popular Electronics around the same era, that was a really challenging project none of the of the values and timings quite came out as they were supposed to in the article.
Loved the video by the way! :D
Really cool how much you appreciate someone’s work, frustration, love and craftsmanship within a metal box thumbs up
don lancaster through the years inspied me. but I foud out on my own that memory mmapped video was faster for a terminal and got the VIO board from IMASI witch was so fast with word star on my wire wrapped z80 S100 at the time got 4 k memory Imsi boards at first then orhers, Dma controller and DT8 8: drives, lost it all in storage sad. but im 73 now and I know you cant take it all with you.
Yeah, one thing I didn't realise at all until I built an Apple 1 clone that did output in the same way (via a 6821, but talking to a microcontroller emulating the video subsystem) was that updating that shift register memory was _slow._ The shift registers in that system went around once per frame, so you could send a character to the display only once per frame. Sixty characters per second is only about 600 bps which, if you've ever used a 300 or 1200 bps modem, you know is not exactly fast.
That, sir, was a tremendously interesting video. Thank you very much!👍
15:16 - I don't believe it's the EXACT machine as yours. The front panel switch-holes looks much more evenly laid out than your unit.
It can only be original once. I literally felt my chest tightening up when you were talking about painting it lol. Fantastic video, what a treasure you have found!
Thank you. Yes that's kind of my philosophy. I always feel a bit queasy with cosmetic restorations because while they make the thing more visually appealing they demolish some of the history. As it is I can say the TV Typewriter's paint is probably the same that Mr. Runyan applied way back when.
50:50 no leave its current cosmetic condition (maybe fix the broken keys if possible) but at this point its a artifact
Fantastic discoveries and I love the human connection. I come from electronic music and am also fascinated by previous owners of my earlier gear and fascinating to see SSM boards. I am sure Mr Runyan would be surprised to say the least and hopefully pleased. Subscribed :-)
"Don't get it right just get it running" car grur David Frieburger
For the TVT repair it to function but leave the patina.
Roadkill is one of my favourite shows ever.
You should absolutely attempt to track down the same model TV as shown in that magazine photo with the TVT.
I might just do that.. I think he mentioned the make in the article.. hard to see from photo.
@@TechTimeTraveller It might be another Hitachi model that uses the same chassis: the one in the TVT article is a Hitachi P-04, the text says: "the most desirableis the Hitachi P-04 and has the Hitachi SX chassis ... The SX chassis is also used on models P-03, P-05, P-08, P-53, P-63, S-47, and several others." I found a photo of a P-05 and it looks like the one in the Kilobaud TVT article, no model number on front so no way to tell which model the photo has other than by looks.
The wood grain on your unit doesn't match the one in the Kilobaud Mag. Maybe he made multiple units??
Yes, name tag is placed slightly different.
Quite possible. I did kind of think he might have built more than one, didn't catch the woodgrain!
Incredibly informative video, Brad! 👍👍
52:24 - The first thing I noticed were those horrid slide switches!
The MCM-70 had an APL keyboard! I never knew there was an micro APL PC [aside from the IBM 5100].
I saw a plan written up from an IBM employee in the 70s proposing they sell APL terminals (with the special keyboards of course) and charge people for time connected to a single mainframe in each city/town, like a "utility". It was a sort of dystopian version of what became the "internet", well, dystopian in the sense that IBM would own every second of computer time and resources.
@@squirlmy It wasn't dystopian, it was what EVERY computer company did with the limited technology of the time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymnet
I have news for you - big companies still own everything. Who hosts this video?
APL is too difficult for home users, by the way.
This is so wonderful, it's a reminder that computer history isn't just the machines, it's the stories they tell or hide of their time and the people involved with them.
Thank Grant!!!😊
Looks to me like someone tried to pick up or move the Mark-8 while it was still wired into the power supply. No doubt that power supply Grant had was heavy!
To me, the Mark-8 is too much of an artefact and too bespoke to get working again without undoing or destroying its originality. Of course it would be *wonderful* to see it humming happily again.
Oh, and I remember axial capacitors as being the ones that are arranged like an "axle" on a car (sort of). Fantastic video!
I have a copy of the book TV TYPEWRITER COOKBOOK By Don Lancaster, it's a Howard W. Sams Publication First Edition First Printing 1976. It has a green cover, it's paperback. You might be able to find a copy online either Ebay, or maybe an online book seller. I acquired my copy years ago for $ 4.75. I found it on a sale table at a Radio Shack store.
I hope I will be building cutting-edge, history-worthy hardware when I’m 60-something, too.
I’ll tell you how to make something symmetrical. 😂 Do one side one way, and do the other side the same, but opposite. ❤lmao. 😂
Great video.
I followed every step of this era - at the time! mmBYTE,Kilobaud and the others.
I learned so much - starting with TTL, stepping through CMOS, into the earliest LSI chips.
Built Signetics and Zilog hobby stuff, worked with and for DEC (PDP8 and 11 / VAXen), did driver work for Zilog, stumbled around the computer and TV industry for 30+ years… loved every second of it. Used DG, SGI and other platforms.
Wrote some PC software for the TV industry in 2001 that has grown, and is the top product in that vertical market ever since (but my business partner cheated me out after six years) 😔
The whole scene was very small - and personal. We were all learning.
I'm probably a bit older than the Tech Time Traveller, so... it was important to IBM to have their PCs called "Personal Computers," in the 80s, as opposed to a "home computer" or "microcomputer". This is going back to the first "DOS" PC, not just Windows, and I think they'd have trademarked the term if they could have. Years before that(1977), the Atari 2600 was a VCS: "Video Computer System" which is funny, looking back, because it didn't have keyboard and was strictly a "game system".
Also in the 80s, Apple and Apple owners of Apple I, II, IIe and IIc's and Macs were very proud that their microcomputers were NOT PCs! It wasn't really such a matter of pride for C64s, Sinclairs, old Heathkits, etc. Then the "clones" came starting with Compaq, taking over the market very quickly within a couple of years. IBM wanted people to keep calling these work-a-likes "clones," and not "Personal Computers" or "PCs", but of course people are lazy, and saw no reason to differentiate their clones from "real" PCs.
I grew up and went to uni with an Apple IIe. My university had VAX "minicomputers", and I certainly at the time, I and my friends called everything that pre-dated the IBM PC either a "home computer" or a "microcomputer", "personal computer" only got special use beginning with IBM's. We would have discussed the first "microcomputer", if the subject came up. So it's kind of sweet revenge to think IBM lost their battles and now just about every microcomputer system is called a "personal computer". But, it's still hard not to think of "PCs" as anything but 8088 and x86 machines, I go with "microcomputer", myself.
The edges of that note don't look to be chewed by mice. That appears to be the work of cockroaches, sorry. They sometimes use paper fibers mixed with saliva to conceal their egg cases-- a sort of a roachy Papier-mâché.
Axial caps have leads on different ends of the capacitor. Radial has leads both on the same end.
I would try to restore the the TVTW to operating condition as it might have looked when the original owner had been using it, minus some years of wear and tear.
I may be wrong, but I think IBM coined the term "Personal Computer", and then everyone else applied that term to THEIR designs. Today,, I think the tern "PC" defines the type of computer that has the original IBM PC as its ancestor. So what is a "Personal Computer"? Probably anything that fits the use case of the original IBM PC. This would include the Apple II, Macintosh, C64, and all other mass market machines sold to the home and small office market.
While the early Altair, Imsai, SWTPC, OSI, and other S100/SS50 bus based systems (this includes the Heathkit H8) felt like Personal Computers, they were designed to look like older 'mini computers' such as the PDP-8, PDP-11, or NOVA. These were 'Hobby' computers, some (such as the Imsai/Altair and other S100 machines) were used in early industrial applications.
The Mark 8 was never a kit. It was described in a Radio Electronics magazine and the PC artwork was available in an info packet from the author. A VERY limited number of PC boards were sold by the author, and the builder had to source their own parts.
My opinion would be to clean it up as much as you can, getting it working again.... But not do anything cosmetic beyond removing dirt, rust and grime.
The battle over " The First Personal Computer " is a battle that will continue for many years to come. There are endless opinions on this subject, not to mention a lot of convoluted historical claims to fame. So this will go on and on for many many years.
Mark-8 seems like a good computer for a replica project. Just. Looking for a project here. May be too big of a bite for me though. Will need to think. Just mind boggling to think people did these in the day. Without the help of the internet and way more difficult access to components. Well you are getting the authentic looking for components experience since you really need the exact ones. I'm settling for the authentic experience of gobbling together whatever i can, even though it's way way easier now.
This may be the project. It may also not. Haven't finished my previous electronics project yet so not going to start the next one. But it's nearing completion.
If of interest, it's an arduino project. So nope not retro, and not close to the metal stuff.
Also .. nobody back then would have entered a 5KB program via switches back then. People were more patient back then, but even if you take 3 seconds per byte that would be 5 hours, same for checking again, and it would be gone when switching off. Also those switches were usually only rated for a few 10000 actuations, so ...
You keyed in paper tape loader of a few tens of bytes, and then loaded the program from tape.
If you wanted something with more error checking and maybe the ability to load into different memory areas .. you still used that and loaded the better loader from tape, too.
19:05 Hmm, might have gone into narcotics manufacturing with one of his students after retirement, rumor has it the Mark-8 controlling his M60 caused his demise in 1984
How very cool! The Mark-8 Minicomputer is a machine that has fascinated me for a few reasons, partly because it's an 8008 instead of 8080-based machine, and partly because it had so little time to shine. I do hope you are able to restore both machines to working order! After all, computers were meant to compute! And, well, I'd like to see some videos of a Mark-8 in use. 🙂
In your search for vintage/antique parts/components that are no longer in production and that have been out of production for many many years, you most likely will end up trying to find components that are either electrically the same or can be added to so they function the same as the original components.
I'd restore the TVT functionality but leave most of the cosmetics alone. One thing I'd be tempted to do is swap your complete and good condition keyboard in given the rough condition of the TVT keyboard
I think it would be best if the missing chips would be replaced by same chips, but NOT missing. The broken connector replaced, and then make a nice wooden cabinet for it. Give this Mark 8 a home he could never dream of. This leaves us in a philosophical dilemma: can computers dream in their free time.
I can give you an answer on that, It is my theory that all logical chips are made out of metals, semiconducting materials, isolators and something special: pieces of wondering souls. How else could stupid machines have made a decision, committed logic to questions. And since we never are certain about the originals of the souls that were used for the logic chips, it could have been the old souls of Chinese factory workers or loved ones closer by. Every computer is a new home for an old soul, and therefore every cabinet for a computer must be made with beauty, because every computer with logic chips is some sort of a temple, it is a shrine!
That is why I am personally working on a nice wooden cabinet for my replica 6502 computer. Sanding it, painting it, and polishing it till it shines. You never know who's souls is in it!
I would get everything working.The TVT I would straighten all the metal and fix/replace the keyboard. If you do decide to paint it mask off the labels but the wear is part of it's history.
I woud consider the parts were "used" by the school on Display as an example for a early Computer maybe up to the mid 90s and than survived in somehow forgoten in a corner...
Not very long ago, I got lucky and found both of the books Don Lancaster wrote about the TV Typewriter. I don't know if I'll ever do anything with them, but they have made a nice addition to my reference library.
Yeah, that's the same computer as in the newsletter, back in those days you did not have the resources to build... two computers. Sourcing the parts and just getting one was enough. You can be pretty sure it's the same computer. Once you got your hands on one computer, you were on it full time... it's like getting your first sportscar, you're going to drive it and love it... you have no time or interest to build a second one... at least not that soon. Only when it starts to show it's age and become obsolete and you're forced to move on... or upgrade... or build something new... or buy something new.
The 1976 references not when he first got it working or demoed or used, but when he built a case for it and finally considered it "finished" and presentable by building a case for it and clicking out the labels at the same time to label the switches. The 1976 is the year he was clicking the Dymo labeler to make the labels.
It's not like he would of remembered the first date he first read the article, bought the parts, soldered it up, or first got it working... so.. 1976 right then and there he could be sure of so klack it out on the labeler. It's close enough. It as so fringe, we didn't think any of it was ever going... anywhere. We were just freaks and electronic nerds. Pretty much the weirdos and loners in your local high school off in their own world.
It wasn't a special time, it swwcked. We wanted a real computer and had hungry brains and were hungry for information. We would of traded it all in an instance to have anything available today off the shelf or any tiny slice of the internet even though a line webbrowser, never mind the ability to display video... across the internet.
I look forward to more videos about these machines, I remember both of them from the days when I had a subscription to Radio Electronics. That was a really good magazine I just wish they had not gone out of business.
Yep, back then me and the Apollo space programmed labeled everything with klicky kla Dymo machines.
Easy enough to tape off the labels instead of removing them if you want to re-paint the case of the TV typewriter. IMO it's more important to preserve the guts untouched rather then the shell, and I would definately re-paint it, and maybe try to seal off or hide the gaps as well although that might be a step too far. Forget retrobriting the keys, they look great, just clean their contacts underneath and paint the case would be my choice. Grats on your amazing score!
This is amazing history and historical documentation.
Get them working but keep the appearance original!
A friend gave me his osi Superboard II and I just fixed it. Comes up with 1977 BASIC prompt. Very similar where I only got the board with a keyboard on it and had to build your own case. He included the case his dad made.
I found the archaeology aspect of this very interesting - reminds me a bit of this (sort of) - ruclips.net/video/Ux_hn4m2jyY/видео.html - you've got the actual hardware that he built though. super neat
Restoring functionality is a given.
Though I feel cosmetic repairs is something that should be done for these as well. A lot of the damage has clearly come from storage and not the use of the machine itself, unless Grant Runyan was very careless with his machine which I very much doubt. He seemed to have cared for this project a lot.
He made a custom case for it to make it presentable and I'd think that's how he'd want it to be seen.
Its a similar thing to what Museums do with restorations. They might get old medieval chainmails that are missing links, and they actually replace them but try to match them as best they possibly can. But they also make sure to document all of this.
So the items are preserved in video or photography form in the way they appeared when they got to the museum, and then people doing restoration document what parts were replaced and repaired, should they be wished to remove or alter for the future so that the original parts aren't removed.
It would be a process but keeping the original panels with the labels would be an option and then just make a recreation in the same color and same print labels just all new and fresh.
Either that or touching up his original parts. But with the risk of damaging labels and restoring of discolored plastics, metals and paints that might be a hard thing to pull off.
Wane Green was founder and editor of 73 magazine so it makes sense that some of the contributors to Kilobaud would also be contributors to 73 magazine.
My 2c. Leave it alone. Even clear coating will change it. Only replace what's needed to be functional.
Well, if the tv typewriter were mine, I would do everything I could do get it back into operating condition, repairing/replacing the parts that due to age are no longer functioning, especially the keyboard and the power cord. And as far as the case it is in, I would just leave it as it is as it has a lot of history . I would replace any missing screws just to keep it together.
If there was an EX Mrs. Runyan and she caused some of this damage , I wouldn't be surprised 😝
What about getting a 8250 UART like the used in the IBM PC.
57:20 4004 was really the first consumer cpu that was offered on a single chip, usa military had em all thru the 1960s, how apollo landed on the moon 250,000 miles away. before single chip cpus you had a multi lsi or vlsi system or a very large dip package 48-72pins , and split alu, registers, and io over 2-3 chips
Cpu were made before you had a standard of 8 bits in a byte, and you measured memory in words, before bits nibbles and bytes and octal
Look at computers before 1970s all the mainframes were all weird architectures, 10, 12, 16, 24, 36 bit cpus were around since wwii just got smaller and faster and efficient, also better instruction sets
What yall think they (usa) used to crunch numbers to make nukes?
Those aluminum plates remind me of the old aluminum photo print used at the local newspaper back when they printed their own papers instead of sending them off to be printed. They used the plates once then tossed them, lost of folk about town had sheds lined with these plates to keep out the cold North Dakota winds.
Build a new plexiglas / acryl case for it, with your newer keyboard. conserve the old case as it is as best as possibly, you you can revert it to its original state whenever needed. ;)
On the TYT, i'd leave the paint alone (other than a gentle clean), but carefully hammer/flatten out the dents, as those appear to be from poor storage or an accident, not from personal use.
I swear this first era of home computing feels close and personal compared to anything made after. Aside from old companies like IBM, everybody else making these things were new companies or individuals. I don't think there's ever been another era like it since. I was born in the late 90s so I definitely didn't experience what it was like, although you can still find hobbyists making their own devices today and have those same sort of WIP newsletters, so the hobbyist scene never left but rather the industry blew up and advanced rapidly.