He never was self-taught. I knew from the very beginning that he was a Dark Friend. The way he answered the question of how Taim remained sane so long was obvious. And that's also why I find it very important for Taim and Demandred to be separate people in the TV show. Sure, it would fit perfectly, but Taim represented to me the human condition perfectly. He learned that he could channel, he learned that he would go mad and took the one way out: Swearing allegiance to the Dark One. It's an aspect of his character that we should never forget. He does everything to remain in control and gain power, rising even to be Chosen. I think that's also why Jordan decided against him being Demandred. It gives more facets to the world.
I thought he became a Darkfriend during the course of events, not from the beginning. I just figured he resisted insanity, because he was the reincarnation of an evil being who was destined to become a Darkfriend but hadn't quite yet.
@@namordecai He remained sane for two decades. Sure, Rand and the Asha'man were driven by need to channel a lot, but given the addictive nature of the One Power I doubt that he never channeled more than a trickle. He would have needed an insane amount of self-control to keep it up for that long. Never really got time relations in the books, but let's say that madness came creeping in within half a year because of how much the Asha'man had to channel for everything. Taim had to channel an average of less than a 20th each year if we take that as a benchmark. And still learn the control to not lose himself in strong flows. Strong flows that he needed after his proclamation at the latest. While figuring out how to test for the Talent. Plus: The taint is accumulative. It never goes away until it is cleared up by an outside force.
@@nestrior7733 Yeah, like I said, I thought maybe he was immune because Ba'lzamon protected him, knowing Taim was destined to turn bad eventually. I don't know. Was he a Darkfriend for 20 years? Seems he got his new name shortly before the last battle.
@@namordecai Taim differs from the other Forsaken. Although we don't know much about the other Forsaken that died during the War of Power, the ones we do know received their names after betraying the Light in full by the people they had betrayed. Or took one of their own choice. Taim rose through the ranks to be Chosen. Named in the advent of the Last Battle after bringing many Dreadlords to the Shadow. He already had some sort of standing within the Shadow, otherwise he would have been given tighter reins. He might not have been a Darkfriend from the beginning, but he certainly found his path to the Shadow quickly enough. Maybe even with the help of a Black Sister. How could he have gone undiscovered for so long?
I think this is kind of a no brainer for the TV series. They're going to have to try and cut down the number of characters to make it work for TV, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they make them the same.Considering that we don't definitively find out they're not the same person until very late, it doesn't really change much and does go along with existing story, plot and rumour. Perhaps they'll allow Taim to wear some kind of mirror of mists thing while he's not in forsaken mode!
True. They should not combine them because of these two epic sacrificial fights. But after the deo.ntage of Lan Mandragoran so fai I do not believe thry will give any man such a scene.
I always liked the idea of Masema being Demandred. The sudden 180 of his stance on the Dragon, followed by him rampaging across the land sowing chaos and performing atrocities in the Dragons name seemed to me to be suspicious.
I thought this was disappointing, the Taimandred thing has been discussed over and over again. I would have hoped to see more about well "What was Demandred up to?" What did he do in Shara, him becoming their prophesied one, how it was said he could have been a champion of the light. Maybe the contents from Unfettered
It just didn't make sense to me that Demandred would pretend to be basically a nobody. Put himself beneath Lews Therin. Not take advantage and kill Rand while in his weakest state. Create the Black Tower and give Rand a ton of Asha'man to help his biggest rival. I imagine Demandred as a man who likes to seize a giant army than having to create one from the ground up. Also, I like the idea more that Taim was just a male channeler that came to Rand so he could be freed from his crimes, let himself be put in charge but also beneath Rand even though he doesn't like being bossed around, because deep down Taim is a selfish man. After Taim had gotten enough influence he started to slowly take over the Black Tower and try to undermine the Dragon Reborn by giving himself a title like the M'Hael as an example and which started the division, people loyal to the Dragon Reborn and the people loyal to the M'hael. And maybe somewhere along the way when Taim was getting powerful enough in the Black Tower that Demandred thought of him as a great asset for the Shadow and decided to recruit him. So Taim wasn't a Darkfriend from the start, he was just a very selfish and power-hungry man that basically was fated to eventually fall to the shadow. Seriously, there're only 2 types of people who would name themselves a False Dragon: an altruistic man who wants to save the world, or a selfish man who wants the glory of being the prophecied Dragon.
Is it not possible he was taught by Ishamael? Just enough to make him a credible threat.. then when Ishamael was killed in the Dragon reborn, Demandred took him as his subordinate. Just as Sammael did with that white cloak injuisiter (Bors)
@@seanm6667 I'd say thatbuts very likely that both he and Logian got training unknowingly. Hell I'd bet that every single false Dragon got some training from Ishmael.
Sure, but it's pretty obvious he was supposed to be one of the male Forsaken until RJ decided he'd overplayed his hand and it was too obvious. To me the most telling line is the "so-called Aiel" throwaway in LoC. That line came from a Rand PoV, it's something that Rand himself has knowledge of from his visions at Rhuidean and almost no one else in the entire world that is not an Aiel clan chief/wise one would say. As far as anyone else in the 3rd age knows, Aiel are this nation of ultra-violent warrior tribes that may descend upon the world at any moment. The fact that they have invaded again is unexceptional, and even the wise ones are taken aback that Moraine was able to derive some limited insight into their history from the old tongue translation of "true Aiel". For a self-taught male channeler who has been bent on his own ends and supposedly thought he perhaps may in fact be the dragon reborn himself to have this knowledge is preposterous. Anyone not privy to the knowledge imparted by the crystal columns in Rhuidean would not be surprised by another Aiel invasion, these Aiel would not be exceptional in any means. However, anyone from the AoL would be absolutely shocked by the 3rd age Aiel warrior tribes to the point where referring to them as "so-called Aiel" is a natural slip of the tongue. It makes sense for Demandred to say this to Rand. Demandred is meeting Rand for the first time, knows he has defeated Ishamael and other forsaken, is a little in awe and envious of him, and shocked by Rand's gaps of knowledge of things he takes for granted. It's a throwaway line but one that stuck out for me on my first reading, (especially since I was late to the series and reading each book back to back). There is no excuse for "Mazrim Taim" saying this, it's not something that would be taught by any Forsaken teacher who would be focused on building up Taim as a counter to Rand and not giving him a well-rounded AoL liberal arts education.
@@jgalt99 I agree, dude. It really doesnt make a whole lota sense, but I gotta make it work in my head as I'm reading it does. So, cause there no other explanation, I'm assuming Taim trained by Demandred and even possibly other Forsaken. Another slight pothole, but Demandred did hate Dragon very much n was super jealous, so maybe its plausible he had moment of showing his weakness n explaining to his apprentice.... again who knows. Most likely a plot fuck-up/last minute change, but no way RJ can put every backstory of every character on pages. We get to assume and use our imagination. Again, I think u right in his "overplaying his hand", of Demandred/Taim....
So I definitely believe it was what RJ originally intended. As you pointed out, there was a lot of evidence supporting it--some of which is just undeniable. The fact that Taim did not turn out to be Demandred was actually a bit of a disappointment because it just made sense for the story, and Demandred's reveal just sorta came out of nowhere to me. I think it was a bit of a waste to hint at it all that time and just have it all just be red herrings. I don't care if it was too obvious. Don't change then ending because people guess it. It messes up the story and it messes up all the seeds you planted from the beginning that makes things so much more enjoyable for the reader because they are figuring out a puzzle. The writers of Lost did this as well. They had an ending in mind from the beginning, the fans guessed it, so they changed it. And I am sure you all heard how that show's ending was taken. And don't get me wrong, here. I loved WoT. I loved the ending. The Taim/Demandred thing did not take away my enjoyment of the series, but if that theory had rung true, it would have made the story even better. Instead of just trying to subvert expectations and do something unexpected, it is actually ok to sometimes just go with what makes sense.
The Taim/Demandred retcon is an example of the very thing that killed Game Of Thrones. Oh, did people figure out my twist? Well, I'll come up with another twist, a twist so lame and unforeshadowed that no one will see it coming!!!!! Writers, don't do this.
@@Siansonea 100% agree. Just because people guess what will happen, doesn't mean it is bad writing or not fun and clever. It means that you have a good story and smart fans.
I don't know. Not only were the Forsaken secretive, they thrive on creating chaos and confusion. What better way to do that than to find a powerful channeler, teach them about the Age of Legends, and tell them you are now one of The Forsaken? That person would take on the mannerisms and speech patterns of their teacher, leading others to believe the student is the teacher. Taim had such a high opinion of himself that only one of the Forsaken (Asmodean) would see that he was just a Darkfriend with a little education and delusions of grandeur.
@@RayVision3D Yeah, except it's literally in Jordan's notes that Taim was intended to be Demandred. They're in the archives at College of Charleston. We literally know for certain that he changed it. Relevant section describing Demandred: "Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND’S AMNESTY."
On Robert Jordan’s notes prior to LoC not only Demandred was supposed to be Taim but he was also the one who killed Asmodean. Box 55 “Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. He will show up claiming to be Mazrim Taim. Taking advantage of Rand’s amnesty”. On a note about Nynaeve. “She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred”. He changed his mind later but it’s funny to think that the biggest LoC fan theories were actually true in a sense.
I’m fairly certain it was never intended that Demandred had killed Asmodean. In the LoC prologue; when talking to the Dark One, Demandred doesn’t know what happened to Asmodean from his own internal point of view and this is our first introduction to Demandred as a character
@@NaeBlis Maybe RJ decided against it before he actually wrote the book then? Those notes were taken from the ones Brandon made available to the public.
I thought I stumbled upon graendal being the one who killed him somewhere. It makes sense to me because she's the one who really does the most to try and undermine Rand from the shadows without him ever knowing
Hey man love the channel. Between you and Daniel Greene I’ve just started reading the series. I just finished The Fires of Heaven and started reading The Lord of Chaos. I got all excited because I finally figured out where “Nae’blis” comes from 😁
Hmmm... you started talking about Demandred and his plans and ended up talking only about M.Taim and this fan theory... I was thinking you would be talking more about the grand plan Demandred was creating in Shara, that we know so little about.... :/
A little late to this, but it was revealed by Terez (creator of the theoryland interview DB) at dragonmount that Taimandred was in RJs notes. This is aside from something BS might have said. Personally (and I commented on her post. YT won't let me post the link) I found the Revelation both comforting and illuminating. Comforting because we fans weren't wrong. We HAD pieced together RJs clues. It was his decision to change who Taim was AFTER LoC (at the earliest. I seem to remember that the notes show it was true at least as far as the CoS timeline. But maybe I remember wrong. It was true at least after LoC was published.) All of which explains the ridiculous Sharan deus ex machina. The Sharans suddenly showing up just seems so out of the blue. Other than 2 throwaway references to chaos (the standard response to news of the dragon being reborn), there was no indication that they might play a role at the end- no more so than the inhabitants of the Isle of Madmen. RJ himself had stated that all of the story would occur in the Westlands. His answer was in reference to Seanchen (it was just after FoH) but the same would apply to the Sharan. The Seanchans worked because they had been in the westlands since TGH. With the Sharan storyline, despite it not being shown, that was manifestly NOT true. Everything that was necessary for them to appear in the westlands happened off screen. A massive Sharan army and reveal- with Demandred somehow becoming a civil rights leader to male channelers, his becoming Bao the Wyld, getting Sarkonen, somehow convincing these people to fight alongside shadowspan (their land butts up against the blight and they knew who/what was there), their culture and society- was not set up or _earned_. There was no world building beyond the brief description that appeared in the Big White book and in one single Graendal/Sammael scene in LoC. As I wrote in a post when Terez shared the notes back in 2015 , Rj wrote himself into a corner by trying to be coy about where Demmy was. Once fans guessed Taimandred too quickly- and he didn't like it!-, he had to figure out where to put him. And what he was up to. Demandred was one of the 3 Forsaken that worked together who together posed a more serious threat than transparent people like Sammael). Mesaana and Semirage were the others. All of them carved out power structures and used proxies to get things done. Losing the Black Tower meant that RJ had to cast about for somewhere else suitably important. He had only a few possibilities. Roedran was one, though Altara was pretty weak so it seemed unlikely. Nothing was happening that would merit someone of Demmys acumen.The Master of Swords among the Sea Folk seemed a better fit and would allow him to be under their nose without being obvious (like Semi). But instead, he decided Shara. And for whatever reason, he wanted to keep it for a big reveal. Which I totally get. But I'm sorry, you cannot introduce a new storyline and culture and prophecies and all of that in the last 3rd of the 14th book. Or, if Rj had somehow been able (as he said he was going to), in the one mammoth 12th book. (And no, a short story in some not widely known anthology doesn't count. Companion novels flesh out the back story- but they don't do the logical and emotional legwork for massive plot jumps in the main series. The story wasn't even long enough to give them enough background for the role they were supposed to play. Even if they had, it wouldn't work. The SW sequels tried to do the same with novels to set up the universe 35 years after the original. No. A person shouldn't have had to read a book to be able to understand the world they are going in to. Ditto with Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson writing 6 prequel novels just so they could write the final dunel novel. The end book is not the place to introduce a bunch of new stuff.) Like the mass suicide of the Amayar, the reveal was unearned. There was no connection. It was words. A literal pulling of armies out of his ass. It wasn't warranted. There was nothing for fans to look back on and nod at the masterful placing of pieces that finally revealed themselves at the end. That is not good writing. This wasn't BS fault, though he could have minimized the jarring by introducing the Sharans earlier. Sure, we would have guessed it. But this was the run up to the last battle anyway. Believability is more important than surprise, not if you are expected to swallow an entire continent down in one single gulp. Ultimately, Rj was responsible for this. As for Taimandred in the series...no. Now that they are separate, they should stay separate. Too much would have to change. BUT the series could redeem RJs blunder by doing what RJ should have done. Making the Sharans real and a threat earlier. Enough that you know they are there and earn their right to be in the last battle as the army behind the shadow's big bad. Something to make it organic rather than a magic army showing up out of nowhere. Abandoning Taimandred is where RJ steered the series into the shoals and it suffered greatly. I still love it (been reading and rereading since 1993). The ending was bittersweet, less because RJ had died, but more that his work was seriously flawed because he churlishly decided to change his mind and retcon his initial plans. Changing is fine. That's not the problem. But he didn't earn their being at the Last Battle.
I agree with introducing more sharan lore into the main series, but I believe the surprise reveal well actually pleasantly surprising and much better than the predictable taim/demandred reveal. All they had to do was give us the backstories of demandred's time in shara, after the surprise reveal. They could've done it through a discussion sequence among dem and the sharan, maybe his lover.
No, the compulsion knowledge of Taim is *not* a very unusual and odd knowledge. We know from an inner dialogue of Verin, that a simple compulsion and peeking are two common wilder skills, of which the compulsion is effectively rooted out -- Verin had reconstructed a special kind of "compulsion" that she uses on the captive Aes Sedai after the battle at the Dumai's Wells. As for Taim having knowledge about breaking the seals: he *is* a darkfriend, it is *very* reasonable to believe that darkfriends at the very least have their own tradition about that the seals will be broken one day. As for Taim-andred using knowledge from the Age of Legend for how many men that are going to exhibit the talent to channel, such knowledge would not be transferable to the end of the Third Age, since the Aes Sedai obviously have culled the talent out of the population by not marrying, and by gentling male channelers. Most of the knowledge of Taim can be explained by darkfriend traditions, and having scholarly interests. After all Bayle Domon knows what quendillar is -- the knowledge Taim exhibits appears to be a combination of scholarship, intelligence and darkfriend traditions.
and possibly even reporting to several of the Chosen during this tie as well, especially since we know that Asmodean is weak-willed and one of the weaker ones even before being 'shackled' by 'the lady of the moon' Lanfear
On the same but also different note the character Arc of Matt annoyed me in terms of a red herring. What I'm referring to is how early on Robert Jordan strongly hinted that he was one of the companions or at least a hero that was continuously spun from the wheel. The scene that hints to this is when author Hawk Wing calls Matt the trickster and heavily implies that they have known one another in the past. Jordan strongly led the reader to believe that those memories that Matt had or rather one of the prevailing theories was that those were the memories from his past lives. Of course later in one of the books he has a contradictory memory but before that there are no contradictions in the memories. Daniel Green and our very own Na'blis made videos about changes in both character and story The live-action series may do. One of the changes I would like made is the mat Arc. I think it would the cleaner to have him as a hero spun from the pattern with those memories being the lives of his path selves. It would make his current Life as a farm boy more profound. I think that was a portion of the story that was very sloppily written. I would love to hear some thoughts on this
@@molliethomas2585 Thank you very much! ☺️ As much as I enjoyed the WOT series there are some glaring flaws that would be potentially highlighted in a visual medium. I think this would be a perfect opportunity to correct them. It's kind of cool Having so many WOT fans to the forefront. For a long time it seemed as if we were a quiet minority/ majoriy? Before youtube, Green, and Nae'blis the only way I would stumble across WOT readers was via certain mmos or chance encounters
I found that to be extremely frustrating, especially in contrast to Noal, or Jain, returning once the horn was blown. Like okay HE'S A BLOODY HERO OF THE HORN but Mat isn't? Also, having Noal roll up like that somehow shifted a little of the impact I felt with Birgitte's return in a way that distracted more than added to the story. I only finished the series last month, and I haven't read New Spring so I haven't FINISHED finished, but to say I was let down by all the potential of Mat's flashback would be true.
@@c.camillejones5331 you really don't need to read a new spring unless you're a completionist. It's 200 pages long and over 130 pages of nothing happening. No joke. It's within the last 60 pages that everything happens. I might go as far as to say less than that. Now that you have finished the series I feel free to say I didn't feel that sense of closure or satisfaction that Mike Green or Na'blis did. It was nice that the series was finished. However I was left feeling very unsatisfied with the Loose Ends and false red herrings.
@@williamjones3534 A year late but...Pretty early after Mat got those memories he mentions to himself that he has memories from both sides of the same battle stuffed into his head. They literally couldn't be from his own past lives. Also...Mat didn't die. What makes you think he isn't a hero who has been spun out? You can't answer the call unless you are currently not alive. Though it would have been quite funny if Rand was mid battle with dark one, starting to turn the tide, and the horn sucked him away as Lews Therin to go fight elsewhere.
Also that awkward moment in Knife of Dreams where Ta'im says something along the lines of "That old saying, let the Lords of Chaos rule" There was an old RJ interview where he said we should know who Demandred is by the end of KoD.
As others have stated below in RJs notes Taim was Demandred and later changed his mind. This is not a “may” have changed his mind. He actually did change his mind.
When I was reading the books, I immediately knew that Anath was Semirhage, and I also 'knew' that Taim was Demandred. "So-called Aiel" sealed it for me. I also suspected Danelle was Mesaana, though that was just because she was mentioned so often in passing and literally nothing was said about her. Nothing to see here, move along. I knew Mesaana had to be someone in the orbit of Alviarin and Elaida, but was obviously neither of those two. Where better than the Brown Ajah to hide someone with vast knowledge, and where better for a Forsaken to get up to speed on a new Age? But that was just a fun little game I was playing as I read the novels. When the Taim thing didn't pan out, frankly it made Demandred seem stupid and cowardly to me. Demandred sequesters himself half a continent away to avoid Lews Therin. Everything of consequence was happening in the Westlands and Seanchan, so the fact that Demandred seemed to be avoiding all of the Forsaken and Light forces in the Westlands is bad enough, but only Semirhage was working among the Seanchan. So he literally had to go to the one place in the world where no other Forsaken had called dibs, where the scary Dragon Reborn had never even been. Mesaana was in the freaking White Tower, for crying out loud. You don't get any closer to the action than that. The way events unfolded, Demandred looks downright silly. So then Demandred shows up at the Last Battle to call out Lews Therin, when it's abundantly clear that Rand is nowhere near the Fields of Merrilor. Demandred's Shara gambit was very flashy and showy, but the Last Battle was really being fought in Shayol Ghul, so no points for troop placement. He wrecked shop for awhile, but Egwene eventually put a stop to it, and Lan-a guy who can't even channel-put a stop to Demandred, because apparently he wanted to play with knives instead of the One Power. What an idiot. But thanks, Demandred, for giving Egwene and Lan a chance to shine in the Last Battle. If Demandred cultivated Taim and groomed him, that would explain Taim's knowledge of Age Of Legends weaves and the like, but not his attitude toward "so-called Aiel". And it would make all of the male Forsaken's abandonment of the Black Tower less of an epic blunder. Sending Osan'gar there to keep tabs was clearly never much of a strategy, and Osan'gar was clearly never cut out for that kind of work, he was a research nerd. Really the side of the Shadow had the worst strategy, but I guess that's what you get when everyone is really just trying to be the last one standing. Personally, I think Ishamael should have been the first one to find Taim and recruit him, since he was the first one released from the Bore. That way, Taim has a long time to get used to some of these ideas. Ishamael could then hand off the reins to Demandred, who takes on the mantle of teacher reluctantly. Once Ishamael dies, there could even be a plot to kill Taim or something. That would make for some interesting infighting on the side of Team Evil. Mesaana would certainly want to have Taim dealt with, his positioning is a little too close for comfort, and Graendal would see the wisdom in taking him out as well. Semirhage probably wouldn't care either way, but she would probably support Demandred's play, which would probably also be to kill Taim. Only Moridin and Shaidar Haran would be on Taim's side, but that should be enough to send the other Forsaken scurrying.
I would LOVE if Sanderson was given the opportunity to write a single novel side story showing us what Demandred was up to in Shara leading up to the last battle. It sounds very intriguing and I bet we would all enjoy those POVs from the different villains.
I think that Demandred was impersonating Taim in the beginning and teaching him in secret until he was ready to be a Forsaken. For Demandred everything was always about one upping Lews Therin so deceiving him would be right up his alley especially if he could prove that he could take anything that Rand (Lews) created in this age and use it against him.
I think for the show it should basically be how it was in the books, but set out from the beginning that yes, Taim is trained by Demandred (to be revealed at a later time), and he has infiltrated the Black Tower to basically recruit and train a host of Dreadlords. Just really work towards the bait and switch that he could be more than he seems. Personally I would like it if Taim was being groomed by Demandred to be a new Forsaken. I know that's a bit out of character as the Forsaken are insanely jealous and possessive and never share power, but I think Demandred would be confident in his own position and power and wouldn't fear his underling. Or maybe he's just using the promise of making Taim a Forsaken to manipulate him into doing what Demandred wants. And upon reading further comments, I realise that now that we know what Demandred was up to, it would be more prudent for Taim to be groomed by Ishamael.
Demandred achieved his goal of ruling his own kingdom with unimaginable amounts of power at his disposal. His only problem was that he was also obsessed with proving how much better he was than lews therin.
I think it is a commentary on the nature of the Dragon Reborn that he or she has his own dark, jealous reflection. Both Taim and Demandred have complex, fascinating backstories I would like to see play out more in the tv show. I care less about whether they are combined and more about showing us those layers.
Taim was a replicant, with memories, and not limited to a 4-year lifespan. 😊 On a serious note, this might be similar to the scene early in TEOEW, where Rand hears one of the trollics speaking in the _common tongue,_ but that does not reoccur in any of the other books.
I believe there is a short story detailing some of what Demandred was up to out there. I think it's called River of Souls? It details how he fulfilled their prophecies and gained control of them
I'll be honest here; I'd read another 15 book series in the WoT just told from Demandred's POV. Or at least if it was from the POV of most of the Forsaken. You know; same story, different angle.The Taim/Demendred thing to me was one of the more disappointing things in WoT that seemed to bolster the argument that people always seemed to make about Jordan that he seemed to complicate things in the story just for the sake of complications. Of COURSE Taim was Demendred. Then he wasn't, and it just about corresponds to about the time the blogs started posting theories about it.Far as I'm concerned it's more interesting if Taim is in fact Demandred than "oh...yeah, Demandred was over there in Sharra the whole time doing Very Bad Evil Things ad now he's here and you'd better watch out!" In the Last Battle Sharra felt like an afterthought and I think it would be far better if they combine Taim and Demandred for the TV show.
I am currently in the middle of LoC (rereading), and I find it odd that every time Rand is around Taim, Lews Therin loses his shit. During the chapter called "Letters," abour midway through the book, Rand is attacked by a Grey Man. Not only is Taim suddenly there, having Traveled to his balcony just in time to kill it, but he seems almost overly unsurprised and unconcerned, as if Shadowspawn are everyday occurrences for him. The excuse he gives for being there is lame - news of finding a young boy with the spark. Up until this point, Lews Therin has only raved about killing Taim, but during this encounter he is nealy able to wrestle saidin away from Rand. It seems unlikely that Lews Therin is simply reacting to a man who can channel, because ealier in the book Rand visits the farm, and Lews Therin doesn't react at all to the other male channelers. He only insists on killing Taim. So it certainly seems possible that RJ is hinting that Taim was supposed to be more than just another false dragon.
@@xyr3s that's what everyone says. We know that he isn't because RJ said he isn't. But for red herring evidence. In FOH, chapter "A new name" Brigitte says "This is not Tel'aran'rhoid. I remember everything. I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or EVEN A YOUNG BOY. (my emphasis).
@@xyr3sThat doesn't matter Bridgette says that sometimes she's older and sometimes Gaidal is. He's not because Jordan said but Olver could've been the age is irrelevant.
Taim was 100% Demandred. It's in the notes Harriet donated to Jordan's alma mater in Charleston. It is directly mentioned in the notes twice. Here are the exact quotes from a file entitled "People": "b) Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY." (emphasis added) and "Taim/Demandred showed up, not so much because his party wants Rand free -- though that might be a point in their plans; on the other hand, Rand in the hands of the White Tower, and thus within Mesaana's power, could still cause one hell of a lot of chaos -- but because of learning that the Shaido were moving in. They could not be sure the Aes Sedai could drive off the Shaido, nor that the Shaido would not kill Rand. And a rescued Rand, pissed at the Aes Sedai will really be a source of chaos and disunity." There is also a lot textual evidence in the books, which this video does a good job of pointing out. These notes date from around the time of the publication of Lord of Chaos. He obviously changed his mind at some point for some reason. I would assume because it was too obvious.
I hadn't thought about that, but yes they should be combined on the TV show. I think of the GRRM interview where he talks about how it's bad for authors and screenwriters to change something that they have foreshadowed, and I think he's right. RJ shouldn't have changed what he was going to do because people figured it out, IMHO. I guess LTT would have recognized Taim, though, right? So maybe it wasn't intended.
@@jamesderosa2041, also, inverting a weave just makes it so you can't see them. They can still be felt and manipulated. I think the last thing Big D would want to have to do is explain why he's got a weave around him, much less inverted...which would be bound to happen at the Black Tower, with all the Power being flung about. Duh.
@@matthewanderson4243No. Cadsuaine would have exposed him as easily as she exposed Semirhage. Her Mask was inverted and it still got intercepted and failed. Demandred's Mask would have failed as quickly.
@@shauntempley9757 that's exactly what I was getting at. For some reason, the other guy's comments aren't showing up anymore. But, yeah, the quickest way to draw a highly skilled channeller's attention is to have some advanced weave floating about your person, even if it is inverted.
DeMANdred, not DEEmanDred :) I always thought the Taim/Demandred link was a red herring. Clues were thrown out to the reader to suggest it, but there were too many inconsistencies that didn't add up. Demandred was my favorite forsaken. His schemes weren't petty. While he had a hate on for Rand, to him it was more about being the better General, and being able to prove it. He didn't need to get intimately involved with the Black Tower. Demandred commanded way bigger forces than just the Black Tower, and he wouldn't be able to do it if he was tied in there directly. It makes more sense with Demandred's character that the Black Tower was one piece on the chessboard. Ordering Taim to infiltrate was a brilliant strategy on his part, and how quickly he did so after Rand's amnesty was a testament to Demandred's brilliance as a General. He was able to adapt to Rand's plans and turn them into one of his own forces. IMO, Taim was one of the Forsaken, just not one of the 13 Forsaken everyone is familiar with. There are very subtle and easy to miss hints that point to more than 13. It's my opinion that in the age of legends Mazrim Taim was a Forsaken that never rose to the ranks of the 13 most powerful.
Hope they show Demandreds story about how he becomes Bao the Wyld in the tv series. I recently found a series of short stories called Unfettered, included is a story (2 actually) Brandon Sanderson had to cut from A Memory of Light all a bout Demandred unifying the Sharans by finding Sakarnen. EPIC.
There is a difference between being upset Rand was above him and the pure hatred Demandred has for Rand. The kind of hatred that makes you abandon everything you believed in and turn evil isn't the same as being pissy that someone is above you.
They should absolutely combine the two for the show! Also I think that because we didn't see a ton of pov from the forsaken, that the show creators have a great opportunity to play around with them especially using deas'daemar. They're all so corrupt and full of scheming you could have some wonderful dialogue and side plots for the fans to freak over. Like the first few seasons of GoT.
I know Demandred had some hints at Shara early in the series, but I don't remember much about it. I'm gonna have to pay attention to those parts specifically my next read through.
There’s one more thing. The “almost, not quite” text. This is written when rand visits the tower and makes taim the first ashaman. Earlier in the series Jordan had explained what “almost and not quite” meant for demandred. Honestly, I think you all give Jordan way too much credit for his foreshadowing when in reality he misled often with things like this.
As for combining Taim and Demandred: that wouldn't work in a TV series either -- Lews Therin should immediately identify him when the madness takes Rand more.
If we're going to see more of Demandred off screen in the show, which I hope is the case, I don't see how we (the audience) will ever believe that they're the same person, unless they actually are of course. Unless taking on false appearences becomes much more of a common thing in the show than we see in the books. So since it probably won't be a great "counter-reveal" in the show, I guess we might as well combine them. Guess Taimandred still has time to go and recruit the sharans in his spare time :)
Is it possible that M'Hael was already a dark friend and was taught skills by any number of the Chosen. A moderately sucessful false dragon who can actually channel would be a great pawn in a scheme by Ba'alzamon or Sammael who was setting up a plot in Illian. Maybe the M'Hael grew too powerful or Learned too quickly and survived the Chosen who was training him?
Taim was a dark friend from the get. and by the time he would have been a false dragon Ishmael could have began teaching him, and making him the very first Dreadlord for the last battle. I want Demodread and Taim to be different people in the show. just because i want the final battle with egwene and taim to stay and demodread and lan to stay, not to mention seeing demodread kill Gawyn O.O
What about his conquest of Shara, slaying the Jumara, the severed yet still alive Nym head, and piecing together his Sa'angreal? I know these are canon events, but ones that I have only heard briefly but not in detail.
For me, the whole Demandred issue is the same for most of the forsaken. You only ever catch glimpses of what their plans were, you get very little in their display of power aside from very few. If Dashiva was an evil biologist like he was as aginor, I would have expected to see more out of that character concerning his talents. Same for Demandred. Him and mazrim taim being the same person gives me a backstory and maybe a loathing purpose for demandreds action in the final book, but as it stands, Demandred was a fart in the wind they made out to be some super powerful badass taking out some major channelers. Aside from padan fain's death, it has to be the most unbelievable parts of the last book for me. Manufacturered power from a place we know nothing about and heard very little from.
I wonder if something went missing in translation between Robert Jordan’s notes and Brandon Sanderson or Sanderson even changed it because everything you say points towards Demondred being Taim.
I think Taim as Demadred was a red herring. I prefer them separate. and I do not want ANY characters combined in the TV series. One of the reasons I've never wanted to see a WOT movie is because of that kind of thing. If it can't be done right, then don't ruin it!
It is impossible to show everyone. The books are too massive, things are going to get cut and combined. If you expect it to be perfect don't even watch.
To be honest I just thought that it was sort of a red herring scenario, after the proof that they were two separate people. If it was Jordan changing his mind on that point it still makes sense as a ruse in my opinion. :-) As for what to do with it in the show, it depends how MUCH of the story they adapt. Is it really necessary for the overall plot to bring that distinction into it. It WOULD be simpler to either combine the two OR never actually put in ant references that they were one and the same as mentioned in the books. I dunno. As long as the show is great, consistent and do not totally change things too much I'll be fine with it either way. ;-)
8:48 ugh, I was a kid, but RJ threw a hissy fit for an old guy about the Taimandred theory! (And who killed Asmo 😂 ). Demandred/Taim was obvious because it was RIGHT, and when I got to that book and read RJ's interviews and hissy fits about Taimandred, I quit reading the books. (I much later read the Sanderson spoilers, so I missed about book 7 to book whenever RJ died finally and let Sanderson finish. *Sanderson knew!* 😂 ) I forget who I thought had killed Asmodeon (probably I thought Taimandred!) but I didn't buy that Graendal story from RJ. I guess when you lose respect for the author, you stop buying the merch and be happy with what you thought the story would be and move on. (RJ should have had the cajones to keep his original stories in, and not shoehorned in new answers that just never made sense.)
Demandred and Samael needs to be combined, they are basically both "generals with a personal hatred due to jelousy against Lewis Therin" and i think having them both will just reduce the impact and interesst in either whith limited screentime. I think taim is strong enough to stand on his own as a enemy i would however probably make him a forsaken from the start and replace the forsaken spot left by Samael with Taim (couse we all know who gets sacked between Samael and Demandred). also, great video as allways!
Taim definitely states that he trained and killed a guy that could channel when he first meets rand. Before he became a false dragon. And I remember Bashere immediately recognizes him. Taim is Deamodreads lackey so he pulls the strings in the background. There's an heigharchy to Dark friends. Taim or Deamodread wouldn't meet Rand unless their direct boss tells them. The DO to Deamodread to Taim.
Just here for the whiteboard! OMG xrated whiteboard! We could have gone Princess Peach covered in cream? or The Sisters Scissors? But I like you style!
I think like the Character Oliver The Taim thing was an unnecessary red herring that went no where. It's funny although the WOT remains one of my favorite Scify/Fantasy series the more I watch videos like this or Re-read the more cracks in the story I see.
I would like them to make Demandred and Taim the same person in the tv series. It felt like an anti climax when he ended up "just" being a darkfriend. I mean, it was pretty much obvious from the get go that he, indeed, was one; the question was really who he was.
In the start i thought he was "hiding" as Taim. Later, what i was pretty sure of, and what i still would have absolutely prefered, was that he was hiding as general Galgan and working with Semiharge. As Galgan he would have lived up to his promise of providing a major army for the DO, by bring more than half the Seanchan under the DOs forces. Alot of Seanchan follows lords orders without question, so i see this as highly likely, also the argument that they were fighting against the Aes Sedai would have given him alot of validation. This senario would also have made for a far more interesting dynamic between Toun and Mat, since she would have lost most of her accompliced battle commanders to Galgan, leaving her no other option than Mat, Karede and Tylee. (those two would have served as Mats seconds in the Seanchan army) Also it would have given Toun more reason to "side" with the Aes Sedai forces and accept that her right to the land might not be fully valid. Im still sad this did not happen. And other than the whole Pedan Fain ending, might be the thing that im most sad about in the ending of the series.
Taim is not nearly as intimidating a rival as Demandred imo. He is more of a snake backstapping person where Demandred has some honor, atleast what duels conern
I never understood how Rand could trust him. I never thought he was a forsaken, I believed he was a dark friend from the beginning. He was obviously bitter about being proven a false dragon. I wondered up till his promotion to a forsaken if he have been converted by the 13 myrddraal and 13 channeler ritual.
I was OK with it being obvious as at the time it just increased the dread you felt with Rand not doing anything about it. I thought the way they resolved it was fine although you did feel like they wasted a good bad guy by only giving him a little screen time in his triumphant reveal. The big problem I had with the Sanderson ending was the Isam/slayer wrap up. I felt that was poorly done.
@@NaeBlis Clearly what was needed was slayer splitting into isam and luc, and then having them both fight eachother to the death, and where both of them died...
@@NaeBlis you have to bear with me as I only read the entire series about three or four times (ending with MOL) so I'm not as fresh as yourself. I remember them building up the duality and history of Isam and expected something more to come out of it, something that would be more threatening to one of the main characters. Sanderson seemed to wrap it up at warp speed with little detail or nuance, according to my memory. The Demandred/Taim mystery, the Taim mystery, and the Verin mystery were the three subplots I thought were most mysterious and interesting. I understand the author had his plate full but I was disappointed with the Isam portion.
This. The dread. Knowing/suspecting Taim of Forsaken-level evil corrupting the black tower (even more) is just about as nasty as A'rangar getting his/her hands on Egwene every night
Also Taim and Demandred have similiar physical descriptions. I also though RJ had changed his mind because i believed the theory early on. Feel vindicated now that Sanderson had the same idea.
He never was self-taught. I knew from the very beginning that he was a Dark Friend. The way he answered the question of how Taim remained sane so long was obvious. And that's also why I find it very important for Taim and Demandred to be separate people in the TV show. Sure, it would fit perfectly, but Taim represented to me the human condition perfectly. He learned that he could channel, he learned that he would go mad and took the one way out: Swearing allegiance to the Dark One. It's an aspect of his character that we should never forget. He does everything to remain in control and gain power, rising even to be Chosen. I think that's also why Jordan decided against him being Demandred. It gives more facets to the world.
I thought he became a Darkfriend during the course of events, not from the beginning. I just figured he resisted insanity, because he was the reincarnation of an evil being who was destined to become a Darkfriend but hadn't quite yet.
@@namordecai He remained sane for two decades. Sure, Rand and the Asha'man were driven by need to channel a lot, but given the addictive nature of the One Power I doubt that he never channeled more than a trickle. He would have needed an insane amount of self-control to keep it up for that long. Never really got time relations in the books, but let's say that madness came creeping in within half a year because of how much the Asha'man had to channel for everything. Taim had to channel an average of less than a 20th each year if we take that as a benchmark. And still learn the control to not lose himself in strong flows. Strong flows that he needed after his proclamation at the latest. While figuring out how to test for the Talent. Plus: The taint is accumulative. It never goes away until it is cleared up by an outside force.
@@nestrior7733 Yeah, like I said, I thought maybe he was immune because Ba'lzamon protected him, knowing Taim was destined to turn bad eventually. I don't know. Was he a Darkfriend for 20 years? Seems he got his new name shortly before the last battle.
@@namordecai Taim differs from the other Forsaken. Although we don't know much about the other Forsaken that died during the War of Power, the ones we do know received their names after betraying the Light in full by the people they had betrayed. Or took one of their own choice.
Taim rose through the ranks to be Chosen. Named in the advent of the Last Battle after bringing many Dreadlords to the Shadow. He already had some sort of standing within the Shadow, otherwise he would have been given tighter reins. He might not have been a Darkfriend from the beginning, but he certainly found his path to the Shadow quickly enough. Maybe even with the help of a Black Sister. How could he have gone undiscovered for so long?
I think this is kind of a no brainer for the TV series. They're going to have to try and cut down the number of characters to make it work for TV, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they make them the same.Considering that we don't definitively find out they're not the same person until very late, it doesn't really change much and does go along with existing story, plot and rumour. Perhaps they'll allow Taim to wear some kind of mirror of mists thing while he's not in forsaken mode!
The exploding mushroom sounds like it would be a brothel more than an inn lol
was there ever an explanation given for the "Easing the Badger" name of inns in various towns? It seemed like there was one in every town lol
I do not think they should be combined in the show since it would either remove Eqwene's sacrifice or remove one of the more awesome scenes of Lan
True. They should not combine them because of these two epic sacrificial fights. But after the deo.ntage of Lan Mandragoran so fai I do not believe thry will give any man such a scene.
I always liked the idea of Masema being Demandred. The sudden 180 of his stance on the Dragon, followed by him rampaging across the land sowing chaos and performing atrocities in the Dragons name seemed to me to be suspicious.
I thought this was disappointing, the Taimandred thing has been discussed over and over again.
I would have hoped to see more about well "What was Demandred up to?" What did he do in Shara, him becoming their prophesied one, how it was said he could have been a champion of the light. Maybe the contents from Unfettered
It just didn't make sense to me that Demandred would pretend to be basically a nobody. Put himself beneath Lews Therin. Not take advantage and kill Rand while in his weakest state. Create the Black Tower and give Rand a ton of Asha'man to help his biggest rival. I imagine Demandred as a man who likes to seize a giant army than having to create one from the ground up. Also, I like the idea more that Taim was just a male channeler that came to Rand so he could be freed from his crimes, let himself be put in charge but also beneath Rand even though he doesn't like being bossed around, because deep down Taim is a selfish man. After Taim had gotten enough influence he started to slowly take over the Black Tower and try to undermine the Dragon Reborn by giving himself a title like the M'Hael as an example and which started the division, people loyal to the Dragon Reborn and the people loyal to the M'hael. And maybe somewhere along the way when Taim was getting powerful enough in the Black Tower that Demandred thought of him as a great asset for the Shadow and decided to recruit him. So Taim wasn't a Darkfriend from the start, he was just a very selfish and power-hungry man that basically was fated to eventually fall to the shadow. Seriously, there're only 2 types of people who would name themselves a False Dragon: an altruistic man who wants to save the world, or a selfish man who wants the glory of being the prophecied Dragon.
I agree. Demandred cant be killed by Eugene and Lan. Also Demandred cowered taim with the true power
Taim was given lessons by 1 or more of the male forsaken, thus the knowledge and terminology.
Is it not possible he was taught by Ishamael? Just enough to make him a credible threat.. then when Ishamael was killed in the Dragon reborn, Demandred took him as his subordinate. Just as Sammael did with that white cloak injuisiter (Bors)
@@seanm6667 I'd say thatbuts very likely that both he and Logian got training unknowingly. Hell I'd bet that every single false Dragon got some training from Ishmael.
I like theory Demandred took him as appreciate.
Sure, but it's pretty obvious he was supposed to be one of the male Forsaken until RJ decided he'd overplayed his hand and it was too obvious. To me the most telling line is the "so-called Aiel" throwaway in LoC. That line came from a Rand PoV, it's something that Rand himself has knowledge of from his visions at Rhuidean and almost no one else in the entire world that is not an Aiel clan chief/wise one would say. As far as anyone else in the 3rd age knows, Aiel are this nation of ultra-violent warrior tribes that may descend upon the world at any moment. The fact that they have invaded again is unexceptional, and even the wise ones are taken aback that Moraine was able to derive some limited insight into their history from the old tongue translation of "true Aiel". For a self-taught male channeler who has been bent on his own ends and supposedly thought he perhaps may in fact be the dragon reborn himself to have this knowledge is preposterous. Anyone not privy to the knowledge imparted by the crystal columns in Rhuidean would not be surprised by another Aiel invasion, these Aiel would not be exceptional in any means. However, anyone from the AoL would be absolutely shocked by the 3rd age Aiel warrior tribes to the point where referring to them as "so-called Aiel" is a natural slip of the tongue.
It makes sense for Demandred to say this to Rand. Demandred is meeting Rand for the first time, knows he has defeated Ishamael and other forsaken, is a little in awe and envious of him, and shocked by Rand's gaps of knowledge of things he takes for granted. It's a throwaway line but one that stuck out for me on my first reading, (especially since I was late to the series and reading each book back to back). There is no excuse for "Mazrim Taim" saying this, it's not something that would be taught by any Forsaken teacher who would be focused on building up Taim as a counter to Rand and not giving him a well-rounded AoL liberal arts education.
@@jgalt99 I agree, dude. It really doesnt make a whole lota sense, but I gotta make it work in my head as I'm reading it does. So, cause there no other explanation, I'm assuming Taim trained by Demandred and even possibly other Forsaken. Another slight pothole, but Demandred did hate Dragon very much n was super jealous, so maybe its plausible he had moment of showing his weakness n explaining to his apprentice.... again who knows. Most likely a plot fuck-up/last minute change, but no way RJ can put every backstory of every character on pages. We get to assume and use our imagination. Again, I think u right in his "overplaying his hand", of Demandred/Taim....
I am pretty sure I stayed at an inn called te Exploding Mushroom once. I thought it was a swell name.
So I definitely believe it was what RJ originally intended. As you pointed out, there was a lot of evidence supporting it--some of which is just undeniable. The fact that Taim did not turn out to be Demandred was actually a bit of a disappointment because it just made sense for the story, and Demandred's reveal just sorta came out of nowhere to me. I think it was a bit of a waste to hint at it all that time and just have it all just be red herrings. I don't care if it was too obvious. Don't change then ending because people guess it. It messes up the story and it messes up all the seeds you planted from the beginning that makes things so much more enjoyable for the reader because they are figuring out a puzzle. The writers of Lost did this as well. They had an ending in mind from the beginning, the fans guessed it, so they changed it. And I am sure you all heard how that show's ending was taken.
And don't get me wrong, here. I loved WoT. I loved the ending. The Taim/Demandred thing did not take away my enjoyment of the series, but if that theory had rung true, it would have made the story even better. Instead of just trying to subvert expectations and do something unexpected, it is actually ok to sometimes just go with what makes sense.
The Taim/Demandred retcon is an example of the very thing that killed Game Of Thrones. Oh, did people figure out my twist? Well, I'll come up with another twist, a twist so lame and unforeshadowed that no one will see it coming!!!!!
Writers, don't do this.
@@Siansonea 100% agree. Just because people guess what will happen, doesn't mean it is bad writing or not fun and clever. It means that you have a good story and smart fans.
Yes. What MK said.
I don't know. Not only were the Forsaken secretive, they thrive on creating chaos and confusion. What better way to do that than to find a powerful channeler, teach them about the Age of Legends, and tell them you are now one of The Forsaken? That person would take on the mannerisms and speech patterns of their teacher, leading others to believe the student is the teacher. Taim had such a high opinion of himself that only one of the Forsaken (Asmodean) would see that he was just a Darkfriend with a little education and delusions of grandeur.
@@RayVision3D Yeah, except it's literally in Jordan's notes that Taim was intended to be Demandred. They're in the archives at College of Charleston. We literally know for certain that he changed it.
Relevant section describing Demandred:
"Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND’S AMNESTY."
On Robert Jordan’s notes prior to LoC not only Demandred was supposed to be Taim but he was also the one who killed Asmodean. Box 55 “Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. He will show up claiming to be Mazrim Taim. Taking advantage of Rand’s amnesty”. On a note about Nynaeve. “She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred”. He changed his mind later but it’s funny to think that the biggest LoC fan theories were actually true in a sense.
I’m fairly certain it was never intended that Demandred had killed Asmodean. In the LoC prologue; when talking to the Dark One, Demandred doesn’t know what happened to Asmodean from his own internal point of view and this is our first introduction to Demandred as a character
@@NaeBlis Maybe RJ decided against it before he actually wrote the book then? Those notes were taken from the ones Brandon made available to the public.
I thought I stumbled upon graendal being the one who killed him somewhere. It makes sense to me because she's the one who really does the most to try and undermine Rand from the shadows without him ever knowing
Hey man love the channel. Between you and Daniel Greene I’ve just started reading the series. I just finished The Fires of Heaven and started reading The Lord of Chaos. I got all excited because I finally figured out where “Nae’blis” comes from 😁
Glad you’re loving it Will. It’s the best series ever. Keep on enjoying!
Hmmm... you started talking about Demandred and his plans and ended up talking only about M.Taim and this fan theory... I was thinking you would be talking more about the grand plan Demandred was creating in Shara, that we know so little about.... :/
The whole Shara thing was thrown in last minute to disguise the fact that Taimandred was a thing that Jordan abandoned after people figured it out.
A little late to this, but it was revealed by Terez (creator of the theoryland interview DB) at dragonmount that Taimandred was in RJs notes.
This is aside from something BS might have said.
Personally (and I commented on her post. YT won't let me post the link) I found the Revelation both comforting and illuminating. Comforting because we fans weren't wrong. We HAD pieced together RJs clues. It was his decision to change who Taim was AFTER LoC (at the earliest. I seem to remember that the notes show it was true at least as far as the CoS timeline. But maybe I remember wrong. It was true at least after LoC was published.)
All of which explains the ridiculous Sharan deus ex machina. The Sharans suddenly showing up just seems so out of the blue. Other than 2 throwaway references to chaos (the standard response to news of the dragon being reborn), there was no indication that they might play a role at the end- no more so than the inhabitants of the Isle of Madmen. RJ himself had stated that all of the story would occur in the Westlands. His answer was in reference to Seanchen (it was just after FoH) but the same would apply to the Sharan. The Seanchans worked because they had been in the westlands since TGH. With the Sharan storyline, despite it not being shown, that was manifestly NOT true. Everything that was necessary for them to appear in the westlands happened off screen.
A massive Sharan army and reveal- with Demandred somehow becoming a civil rights leader to male channelers, his becoming Bao the Wyld, getting Sarkonen, somehow convincing these people to fight alongside shadowspan (their land butts up against the blight and they knew who/what was there), their culture and society- was not set up or _earned_. There was no world building beyond the brief description that appeared in the Big White book and in one single Graendal/Sammael scene in LoC.
As I wrote in a post when Terez shared the notes back in 2015 , Rj wrote himself into a corner by trying to be coy about where Demmy was. Once fans guessed Taimandred too quickly- and he didn't like it!-, he had to figure out where to put him. And what he was up to. Demandred was one of the 3 Forsaken that worked together who together posed a more serious threat than transparent people like Sammael). Mesaana and Semirage were the others. All of them carved out power structures and used proxies to get things done. Losing the Black Tower meant that RJ had to cast about for somewhere else suitably important. He had only a few possibilities. Roedran was one, though Altara was pretty weak so it seemed unlikely. Nothing was happening that would merit someone of Demmys acumen.The Master of Swords among the Sea Folk seemed a better fit and would allow him to be under their nose without being obvious (like Semi). But instead, he decided Shara. And for whatever reason, he wanted to keep it for a big reveal.
Which I totally get. But I'm sorry, you cannot introduce a new storyline and culture and prophecies and all of that in the last 3rd of the 14th book. Or, if Rj had somehow been able (as he said he was going to), in the one mammoth 12th book.
(And no, a short story in some not widely known anthology doesn't count. Companion novels flesh out the back story- but they don't do the logical and emotional legwork for massive plot jumps in the main series. The story wasn't even long enough to give them enough background for the role they were supposed to play. Even if they had, it wouldn't work. The SW sequels tried to do the same with novels to set up the universe 35 years after the original. No. A person shouldn't have had to read a book to be able to understand the world they are going in to. Ditto with Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson writing 6 prequel novels just so they could write the final dunel novel. The end book is not the place to introduce a bunch of new stuff.)
Like the mass suicide of the Amayar, the reveal was unearned. There was no connection. It was words. A literal pulling of armies out of his ass. It wasn't warranted. There was nothing for fans to look back on and nod at the masterful placing of pieces that finally revealed themselves at the end.
That is not good writing. This wasn't BS fault, though he could have minimized the jarring by introducing the Sharans earlier. Sure, we would have guessed it. But this was the run up to the last battle anyway. Believability is more important than surprise, not if you are expected to swallow an entire continent down in one single gulp. Ultimately, Rj was responsible for this.
As for Taimandred in the series...no. Now that they are separate, they should stay separate. Too much would have to change. BUT the series could redeem RJs blunder by doing what RJ should have done. Making the Sharans real and a threat earlier. Enough that you know they are there and earn their right to be in the last battle as the army behind the shadow's big bad. Something to make it organic rather than a magic army showing up out of nowhere.
Abandoning Taimandred is where RJ steered the series into the shoals and it suffered greatly. I still love it (been reading and rereading since 1993). The ending was bittersweet, less because RJ had died, but more that his work was seriously flawed because he churlishly decided to change his mind and retcon his initial plans. Changing is fine. That's not the problem. But he didn't earn their being at the Last Battle.
I agree with introducing more sharan lore into the main series, but I believe the surprise reveal well actually pleasantly surprising and much better than the predictable taim/demandred reveal. All they had to do was give us the backstories of demandred's time in shara, after the surprise reveal. They could've done it through a discussion sequence among dem and the sharan, maybe his lover.
No, the compulsion knowledge of Taim is *not* a very unusual and odd knowledge. We know from an inner dialogue of Verin, that a simple compulsion and peeking are two common wilder skills, of which the compulsion is effectively rooted out -- Verin had reconstructed a special kind of "compulsion" that she uses on the captive Aes Sedai after the battle at the Dumai's Wells. As for Taim having knowledge about breaking the seals: he *is* a darkfriend, it is *very* reasonable to believe that darkfriends at the very least have their own tradition about that the seals will be broken one day. As for Taim-andred using knowledge from the Age of Legend for how many men that are going to exhibit the talent to channel, such knowledge would not be transferable to the end of the Third Age, since the Aes Sedai obviously have culled the talent out of the population by not marrying, and by gentling male channelers. Most of the knowledge of Taim can be explained by darkfriend traditions, and having scholarly interests. After all Bayle Domon knows what quendillar is -- the knowledge Taim exhibits appears to be a combination of scholarship, intelligence and darkfriend traditions.
and possibly even reporting to several of the Chosen during this tie as well, especially since we know that Asmodean is weak-willed and one of the weaker ones even before being 'shackled' by 'the lady of the moon' Lanfear
Compulsion always reminded me of the Jedi mind trick: "no, these are not the Ta'veren you're looking for".
On the same but also different note the character Arc of Matt annoyed me in terms of a red herring. What I'm referring to is how early on Robert Jordan strongly hinted that he was one of the companions or at least a hero that was continuously spun from the wheel. The scene that hints to this is when author Hawk Wing calls Matt the trickster and heavily implies that they have known one another in the past. Jordan strongly led the reader to believe that those memories that Matt had or rather one of the prevailing theories was that those were the memories from his past lives.
Of course later in one of the books he has a contradictory memory but before that there are no contradictions in the memories. Daniel Green and our very own Na'blis made videos about changes in both character and story The live-action series may do. One of the changes I would like made is the mat Arc.
I think it would the cleaner to have him as a hero spun from the pattern with those memories being the lives of his path selves. It would make his current Life as a farm boy more profound. I think that was a portion of the story that was very sloppily written. I would love to hear some thoughts on this
That's a good idea 👍 Hope that's one of the changes in the show.
@@molliethomas2585 Thank you very much! ☺️
As much as I enjoyed the WOT series there are some glaring flaws that would be potentially highlighted in a visual medium. I think this would be a perfect opportunity to correct them.
It's kind of cool Having so many WOT fans to the forefront. For a long time it seemed as if we were a quiet minority/ majoriy? Before youtube, Green, and Nae'blis the only way I would stumble across WOT readers was via certain mmos or chance encounters
I found that to be extremely frustrating, especially in contrast to Noal, or Jain, returning once the horn was blown. Like okay HE'S A BLOODY HERO OF THE HORN but Mat isn't? Also, having Noal roll up like that somehow shifted a little of the impact I felt with Birgitte's return in a way that distracted more than added to the story. I only finished the series last month, and I haven't read New Spring so I haven't FINISHED finished, but to say I was let down by all the potential of Mat's flashback would be true.
@@c.camillejones5331 you really don't need to read a new spring unless you're a completionist. It's 200 pages long and over 130 pages of nothing happening. No joke. It's within the last 60 pages that everything happens. I might go as far as to say less than that. Now that you have finished the series I feel free to say I didn't feel that sense of closure or satisfaction that Mike Green or Na'blis did. It was nice that the series was finished. However I was left feeling very unsatisfied with the Loose Ends and false red herrings.
@@williamjones3534 A year late but...Pretty early after Mat got those memories he mentions to himself that he has memories from both sides of the same battle stuffed into his head. They literally couldn't be from his own past lives. Also...Mat didn't die. What makes you think he isn't a hero who has been spun out? You can't answer the call unless you are currently not alive. Though it would have been quite funny if Rand was mid battle with dark one, starting to turn the tide, and the horn sucked him away as Lews Therin to go fight elsewhere.
The way it was executed I wondered if he was originally Taim and Jordan changed his mind on that at the last minute to make them different people.
Sanderson confirmed that was the case.
Also that awkward moment in Knife of Dreams where Ta'im says something along the lines of "That old saying, let the Lords of Chaos rule"
There was an old RJ interview where he said we should know who Demandred is by the end of KoD.
As others have stated below in RJs notes Taim was Demandred and later changed his mind. This is not a “may” have changed his mind. He actually did change his mind.
When I was reading the books, I immediately knew that Anath was Semirhage, and I also 'knew' that Taim was Demandred. "So-called Aiel" sealed it for me. I also suspected Danelle was Mesaana, though that was just because she was mentioned so often in passing and literally nothing was said about her. Nothing to see here, move along. I knew Mesaana had to be someone in the orbit of Alviarin and Elaida, but was obviously neither of those two. Where better than the Brown Ajah to hide someone with vast knowledge, and where better for a Forsaken to get up to speed on a new Age?
But that was just a fun little game I was playing as I read the novels. When the Taim thing didn't pan out, frankly it made Demandred seem stupid and cowardly to me. Demandred sequesters himself half a continent away to avoid Lews Therin. Everything of consequence was happening in the Westlands and Seanchan, so the fact that Demandred seemed to be avoiding all of the Forsaken and Light forces in the Westlands is bad enough, but only Semirhage was working among the Seanchan. So he literally had to go to the one place in the world where no other Forsaken had called dibs, where the scary Dragon Reborn had never even been. Mesaana was in the freaking White Tower, for crying out loud. You don't get any closer to the action than that. The way events unfolded, Demandred looks downright silly. So then Demandred shows up at the Last Battle to call out Lews Therin, when it's abundantly clear that Rand is nowhere near the Fields of Merrilor. Demandred's Shara gambit was very flashy and showy, but the Last Battle was really being fought in Shayol Ghul, so no points for troop placement. He wrecked shop for awhile, but Egwene eventually put a stop to it, and Lan-a guy who can't even channel-put a stop to Demandred, because apparently he wanted to play with knives instead of the One Power. What an idiot. But thanks, Demandred, for giving Egwene and Lan a chance to shine in the Last Battle.
If Demandred cultivated Taim and groomed him, that would explain Taim's knowledge of Age Of Legends weaves and the like, but not his attitude toward "so-called Aiel". And it would make all of the male Forsaken's abandonment of the Black Tower less of an epic blunder. Sending Osan'gar there to keep tabs was clearly never much of a strategy, and Osan'gar was clearly never cut out for that kind of work, he was a research nerd. Really the side of the Shadow had the worst strategy, but I guess that's what you get when everyone is really just trying to be the last one standing. Personally, I think Ishamael should have been the first one to find Taim and recruit him, since he was the first one released from the Bore. That way, Taim has a long time to get used to some of these ideas. Ishamael could then hand off the reins to Demandred, who takes on the mantle of teacher reluctantly. Once Ishamael dies, there could even be a plot to kill Taim or something. That would make for some interesting infighting on the side of Team Evil. Mesaana would certainly want to have Taim dealt with, his positioning is a little too close for comfort, and Graendal would see the wisdom in taking him out as well. Semirhage probably wouldn't care either way, but she would probably support Demandred's play, which would probably also be to kill Taim. Only Moridin and Shaidar Haran would be on Taim's side, but that should be enough to send the other Forsaken scurrying.
I would LOVE if Sanderson was given the opportunity to write a single novel side story showing us what Demandred was up to in Shara leading up to the last battle. It sounds very intriguing and I bet we would all enjoy those POVs from the different villains.
He did...
@@oliviasonell960 really??? What’s it called? I’m not familiar with it.
To me, the pronunciation is de-MAN-dred, not DEE-mon-dred.
That's how I always read it as well.
I always pronounced it Dee-mun-dred. Sounds like demon, which fits, but that's just me
I think that Demandred was impersonating Taim in the beginning and teaching him in secret until he was ready to be a Forsaken. For Demandred everything was always about one upping Lews Therin so deceiving him would be right up his alley especially if he could prove that he could take anything that Rand (Lews) created in this age and use it against him.
snagged the audible trial! been meaning to for a while so figured this would do!
I think for the show it should basically be how it was in the books, but set out from the beginning that yes, Taim is trained by Demandred (to be revealed at a later time), and he has infiltrated the Black Tower to basically recruit and train a host of Dreadlords. Just really work towards the bait and switch that he could be more than he seems. Personally I would like it if Taim was being groomed by Demandred to be a new Forsaken. I know that's a bit out of character as the Forsaken are insanely jealous and possessive and never share power, but I think Demandred would be confident in his own position and power and wouldn't fear his underling. Or maybe he's just using the promise of making Taim a Forsaken to manipulate him into doing what Demandred wants.
And upon reading further comments, I realise that now that we know what Demandred was up to, it would be more prudent for Taim to be groomed by Ishamael.
Demandred achieved his goal of ruling his own kingdom with unimaginable amounts of power at his disposal. His only problem was that he was also obsessed with proving how much better he was than lews therin.
I think it is a commentary on the nature of the Dragon Reborn that he or she has his own dark, jealous reflection. Both Taim and Demandred have complex, fascinating backstories I would like to see play out more in the tv show. I care less about whether they are combined and more about showing us those layers.
The Dragon has & always will be a woman
During my reading I most definitely thought of Taim as a red herring for the identity of Demandred as it seemed too obvious right from the on set.
Wasn't Taimandred the original intention before Jordan saw that theory and changed it?
@@gokbay3057 All we know is THAT he changed it (possibly), but not why. I find it unlikely to be beacuse people were speculating.
@@gokbay3057 perhaps so. I was simply giving my initial impression when reading. It may well have turned out to be wrong in the end.
Taim was a replicant, with memories, and not limited to a 4-year lifespan. 😊
On a serious note, this might be similar to the scene early in TEOEW, where Rand hears one of the trollics speaking in the _common tongue,_ but that does not reoccur in any of the other books.
Narg is special
Taim was like Pierce Bronson in Hot Fuzz. He was so obviously evil that I couldn’t tell if he actually was.
I really want to see what was happening in Shara. I know what Demandred was up to was a big mystery, but there's a story there.
I believe there is a short story detailing some of what Demandred was up to out there. I think it's called River of Souls? It details how he fulfilled their prophecies and gained control of them
@@block4562 You're right. That story does exist. Wish it was own series, though, and not just a short story.
1. Go to Shara,2. Fulfill Sharan prophecy,3. Overthrow Sharan state,4.Inavde the Westlands. That's the entire plan start to finish
I'll be honest here; I'd read another 15 book series in the WoT just told from Demandred's POV. Or at least if it was from the POV of most of the Forsaken. You know; same story, different angle.The Taim/Demendred thing to me was one of the more disappointing things in WoT that seemed to bolster the argument that people always seemed to make about Jordan that he seemed to complicate things in the story just for the sake of complications. Of COURSE Taim was Demendred. Then he wasn't, and it just about corresponds to about the time the blogs started posting theories about it.Far as I'm concerned it's more interesting if Taim is in fact Demandred than "oh...yeah, Demandred was over there in Sharra the whole time doing Very Bad Evil Things ad now he's here and you'd better watch out!" In the Last Battle Sharra felt like an afterthought and I think it would be far better if they combine Taim and Demandred for the TV show.
I am currently in the middle of LoC (rereading), and I find it odd that every time Rand is around Taim, Lews Therin loses his shit. During the chapter called "Letters," abour midway through the book, Rand is attacked by a Grey Man. Not only is Taim suddenly there, having Traveled to his balcony just in time to kill it, but he seems almost overly unsurprised and unconcerned, as if Shadowspawn are everyday occurrences for him. The excuse he gives for being there is lame - news of finding a young boy with the spark. Up until this point, Lews Therin has only raved about killing Taim, but during this encounter he is nealy able to wrestle saidin away from Rand. It seems unlikely that Lews Therin is simply reacting to a man who can channel, because ealier in the book Rand visits the farm, and Lews Therin doesn't react at all to the other male channelers. He only insists on killing Taim. So it certainly seems possible that RJ is hinting that Taim was supposed to be more than just another false dragon.
I just think RJ was fond of red herrings like this. Look at Olver/Gaidal Cain.
I think olver is too old to be gaidal cain. Seeing as brigite wasn't even born yet by the end of the books.
@@xyr3s that's what everyone says. We know that he isn't because RJ said he isn't. But for red herring evidence. In FOH, chapter "A new name" Brigitte says "This is not Tel'aran'rhoid. I remember everything. I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or EVEN A YOUNG BOY. (my emphasis).
@@xyr3sThat doesn't matter Bridgette says that sometimes she's older and sometimes Gaidal is. He's not because Jordan said but Olver could've been the age is irrelevant.
Taim was 100% Demandred. It's in the notes Harriet donated to Jordan's alma mater in Charleston. It is directly mentioned in the notes twice. Here are the exact quotes from a file entitled "People":
"b) Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY." (emphasis added)
and
"Taim/Demandred showed up, not so much because his party wants Rand free -- though that might be a point in their plans; on the other hand, Rand in the hands of the White Tower, and thus within Mesaana's power, could still cause one hell of a lot of chaos -- but because of learning that the Shaido were moving in. They could not be sure the Aes Sedai could drive off the Shaido, nor that the Shaido would not kill Rand. And a rescued Rand, pissed at the Aes Sedai will really be a source of chaos and disunity."
There is also a lot textual evidence in the books, which this video does a good job of pointing out.
These notes date from around the time of the publication of Lord of Chaos. He obviously changed his mind at some point for some reason. I would assume because it was too obvious.
Love this series! Please keep the fan theories coming!
I wish Jordan kept Taim being Demandred in disguise. It was obvious that Taim was not a self taught channeler who inexplicably stayed sane.
I hadn't thought about that, but yes they should be combined on the TV show.
I think of the GRRM interview where he talks about how it's bad for authors and screenwriters to change something that they have foreshadowed, and I think he's right. RJ shouldn't have changed what he was going to do because people figured it out, IMHO.
I guess LTT would have recognized Taim, though, right?
So maybe it wasn't intended.
Wouldn't Lews Therin have immediately recognized him once Rand integrated Lews more? Might be why Jordan changed his mind.
Matthew Anderson Mask of Mirrors. Duh.
@@jamesderosa2041 yeah...because Rand wouldn't notice THAT weave and be suspicious.
Duh.
@@jamesderosa2041, also, inverting a weave just makes it so you can't see them. They can still be felt and manipulated.
I think the last thing Big D would want to have to do is explain why he's got a weave around him, much less inverted...which would be bound to happen at the Black Tower, with all the Power being flung about.
Duh.
@@matthewanderson4243No. Cadsuaine would have exposed him as easily as she exposed Semirhage. Her Mask was inverted and it still got intercepted and failed. Demandred's Mask would have failed as quickly.
@@shauntempley9757 that's exactly what I was getting at. For some reason, the other guy's comments aren't showing up anymore.
But, yeah, the quickest way to draw a highly skilled channeller's attention is to have some advanced weave floating about your person, even if it is inverted.
DeMANdred, not DEEmanDred :)
I always thought the Taim/Demandred link was a red herring. Clues were thrown out to the reader to suggest it, but there were too many inconsistencies that didn't add up. Demandred was my favorite forsaken. His schemes weren't petty. While he had a hate on for Rand, to him it was more about being the better General, and being able to prove it. He didn't need to get intimately involved with the Black Tower. Demandred commanded way bigger forces than just the Black Tower, and he wouldn't be able to do it if he was tied in there directly. It makes more sense with Demandred's character that the Black Tower was one piece on the chessboard. Ordering Taim to infiltrate was a brilliant strategy on his part, and how quickly he did so after Rand's amnesty was a testament to Demandred's brilliance as a General. He was able to adapt to Rand's plans and turn them into one of his own forces.
IMO, Taim was one of the Forsaken, just not one of the 13 Forsaken everyone is familiar with. There are very subtle and easy to miss hints that point to more than 13. It's my opinion that in the age of legends Mazrim Taim was a Forsaken that never rose to the ranks of the 13 most powerful.
I've gone years never knowing about this theory... to be fair, I've only read the entire series once but.... wow.
I can picture Tom Hiddleston (Loki), playing Mazrim Taim
Am I the only one that pictured Demandred in the last battle as massive, kind of like Sauron at the start of the LOTR movies?
Hope they show Demandreds story about how he becomes Bao the Wyld in the tv series. I recently found a series of short stories called Unfettered, included is a story (2 actually) Brandon Sanderson had to cut from A Memory of Light all a bout Demandred unifying the Sharans by finding Sakarnen. EPIC.
If they make Taim the secret son of a Brown Ajah sister, it'll answer a lot of the questions
on my way through for the 7th time now. thinking about a fan made cartoon version of a certian showruiner in the box
There is a difference between being upset Rand was above him and the pure hatred Demandred has for Rand. The kind of hatred that makes you abandon everything you believed in and turn evil isn't the same as being pissy that someone is above you.
They should absolutely combine the two for the show!
Also I think that because we didn't see a ton of pov from the forsaken, that the show creators have a great opportunity to play around with them especially using deas'daemar. They're all so corrupt and full of scheming you could have some wonderful dialogue and side plots for the fans to freak over. Like the first few seasons of GoT.
I know Demandred had some hints at Shara early in the series, but I don't remember much about it. I'm gonna have to pay attention to those parts specifically my next read through.
There’s one more thing. The “almost, not quite” text. This is written when rand visits the tower and makes taim the first ashaman. Earlier in the series Jordan had explained what “almost and not quite” meant for demandred.
Honestly, I think you all give Jordan way too much credit for his foreshadowing when in reality he misled often with things like this.
Interesting theory, and subsequent follow up with Brandon saying Jordan backed off it. I do think they should be combined for the show.
As for combining Taim and Demandred: that wouldn't work in a TV series either -- Lews Therin should immediately identify him when the madness takes Rand more.
Taim was originally a forsaken but was changed in the last couple of books
Yes put them together for the show. Love the video
If we're going to see more of Demandred off screen in the show, which I hope is the case, I don't see how we (the audience) will ever believe that they're the same person, unless they actually are of course. Unless taking on false appearences becomes much more of a common thing in the show than we see in the books.
So since it probably won't be a great "counter-reveal" in the show, I guess we might as well combine them. Guess Taimandred still has time to go and recruit the sharans in his spare time :)
Is it possible that M'Hael was already a dark friend and was taught skills by any number of the Chosen. A moderately sucessful false dragon who can actually channel would be a great pawn in a scheme by Ba'alzamon or Sammael who was setting up a plot in Illian. Maybe the M'Hael grew too powerful or Learned too quickly and survived the Chosen who was training him?
Taim was a dark friend from the get. and by the time he would have been a false dragon Ishmael could have began teaching him, and making him the very first Dreadlord for the last battle.
I want Demodread and Taim to be different people in the show. just because i want the final battle with egwene and taim to stay and demodread and lan to stay, not to mention seeing demodread kill Gawyn O.O
I think he had already gone to evil and the forsaken taught him
I think that Robert Jordan changed his mind
What about his conquest of Shara, slaying the Jumara, the severed yet still alive Nym head, and piecing together his Sa'angreal? I know these are canon events, but ones that I have only heard briefly but not in detail.
I believe he was Demanded until fans guessed and pissed rj off
I completely missed all of those hints, lol.
I don't think Taim and Demandred were the same person.
I think Taim was a darkfriend all along.
I knew he was a darkfiend, but I never thought he was a forsaken.
I would still favor A Good Night's Ride
For me, the whole Demandred issue is the same for most of the forsaken. You only ever catch glimpses of what their plans were, you get very little in their display of power aside from very few. If Dashiva was an evil biologist like he was as aginor, I would have expected to see more out of that character concerning his talents. Same for Demandred. Him and mazrim taim being the same person gives me a backstory and maybe a loathing purpose for demandreds action in the final book, but as it stands, Demandred was a fart in the wind they made out to be some super powerful badass taking out some major channelers. Aside from padan fain's death, it has to be the most unbelievable parts of the last book for me. Manufacturered power from a place we know nothing about and heard very little from.
It's actually implied that he was taught by one of the forsaken (most likely moridin)
I wonder if something went missing in translation between Robert Jordan’s notes and Brandon Sanderson or Sanderson even changed it because everything you say points towards Demondred being Taim.
i like Taim being his own person because the 3rd age should have its own dreadlords
Rejected in name: the rose starburst. Great joke, great master.
Maybe he always intended for demondred to be controlling and training taim and was always in control of events at the black tower
No combining!
Fun discuss for super fans ;)
I think Taim as Demadred was a red herring. I prefer them separate. and I do not want ANY characters combined in the TV series. One of the reasons I've never wanted to see a WOT movie is because of that kind of thing. If it can't be done right, then don't ruin it!
It is impossible to show everyone. The books are too massive, things are going to get cut and combined. If you expect it to be perfect don't even watch.
I find I'm waiting to see what is on the White Board more than the Video
So you don’t answer your own question: what was Demandred up to?
Demandred built up an army for The Last Battle. I don’t think he is Taim, because it makes no sense
Wow. That’s such a reasonable theory that it almost feels like it should be the case and that the latter books are wrong
To be honest I just thought that it was sort of a red herring scenario, after the proof that they were two separate people. If it was Jordan changing his mind on that point it still makes sense as a ruse in my opinion. :-) As for what to do with it in the show, it depends how MUCH of the story they adapt. Is it really necessary for the overall plot to bring that distinction into it. It WOULD be simpler to either combine the two OR never actually put in ant references that they were one and the same as mentioned in the books. I dunno. As long as the show is great, consistent and do not totally change things too much I'll be fine with it either way. ;-)
Oh I'd say about 6'6, one inch shorter than Rand.
Rand is 6'7" where'd you hear this? Also Perrin is taller then Rand how tall is that monster?
8:48 ugh, I was a kid, but RJ threw a hissy fit for an old guy about the Taimandred theory! (And who killed Asmo 😂 ). Demandred/Taim was obvious because it was RIGHT, and when I got to that book and read RJ's interviews and hissy fits about Taimandred, I quit reading the books. (I much later read the Sanderson spoilers, so I missed about book 7 to book whenever RJ died finally and let Sanderson finish. *Sanderson knew!* 😂 ) I forget who I thought had killed Asmodeon (probably I thought Taimandred!) but I didn't buy that Graendal story from RJ. I guess when you lose respect for the author, you stop buying the merch and be happy with what you thought the story would be and move on. (RJ should have had the cajones to keep his original stories in, and not shoehorned in new answers that just never made sense.)
Demandred and Samael needs to be combined, they are basically both "generals with a personal hatred due to jelousy against Lewis Therin" and i think having them both will just reduce the impact and interesst in either whith limited screentime. I think taim is strong enough to stand on his own as a enemy i would however probably make him a forsaken from the start and replace the forsaken spot left by Samael with Taim (couse we all know who gets sacked between Samael and Demandred). also, great video as allways!
You can't combine them because who does Rand kill then?
@@redhunter8731 technically neither ;)
Taim definitely states that he trained and killed a guy that could channel when he first meets rand. Before he became a false dragon. And I remember Bashere immediately recognizes him. Taim is Deamodreads lackey so he pulls the strings in the background. There's an heigharchy to Dark friends. Taim or Deamodread wouldn't meet Rand unless their direct boss tells them. The DO to Deamodread to Taim.
Bashere doesn’t immediately recognize him though. He actually questions if it was really Mazrim Taim and they have an entire discussion about it
Just here for the whiteboard! OMG xrated whiteboard!
We could have gone
Princess Peach covered in cream?
or
The Sisters Scissors?
But I like you style!
Taimandred being true in the show seems like a great idea to me
Demandred was supposed to be taim. RJ changed his mind somewhere along the way. I think they should keep that story line for the show.
Taim was a dread lord.
I think like the Character Oliver The Taim thing was an unnecessary red herring that went no where. It's funny although the WOT remains one of my favorite Scify/Fantasy series the more I watch videos like this or Re-read the more cracks in the story I see.
Woot!
Making a baby...
I would like them to make Demandred and Taim the same person in the tv series. It felt like an anti climax when he ended up "just" being a darkfriend. I mean, it was pretty much obvious from the get go that he, indeed, was one; the question was really who he was.
Martin Florén "just a false dragon" that's "just a dark friend"...
Well he was a forsaken so being in communication with the forsaken from the previous age gave him the knowledge. Not complicated at all.
About 6'2"
I wouldnt be mad if Taim and Demandred were one person for the show
In the start i thought he was "hiding" as Taim. Later, what i was pretty sure of, and what i still would have absolutely prefered, was that he was hiding as general Galgan and working with Semiharge. As Galgan he would have lived up to his promise of providing a major army for the DO, by bring more than half the Seanchan under the DOs forces. Alot of Seanchan follows lords orders without question, so i see this as highly likely, also the argument that they were fighting against the Aes Sedai would have given him alot of validation. This senario would also have made for a far more interesting dynamic between Toun and Mat, since she would have lost most of her accompliced battle commanders to Galgan, leaving her no other option than Mat, Karede and Tylee. (those two would have served as Mats seconds in the Seanchan army) Also it would have given Toun more reason to "side" with the Aes Sedai forces and accept that her right to the land might not be fully valid. Im still sad this did not happen. And other than the whole Pedan Fain ending, might be the thing that im most sad about in the ending of the series.
Taim is not nearly as intimidating a rival as Demandred imo. He is more of a snake backstapping person where Demandred has some honor, atleast what duels conern
I never understood how Rand could trust him. I never thought he was a forsaken, I believed he was a dark friend from the beginning. He was obviously bitter about being proven a false dragon. I wondered up till his promotion to a forsaken if he have been converted by the 13 myrddraal and 13 channeler ritual.
Demandred's ultimate reveal was the 2nd most disappointing aspect of the whole series, right behind Fain's death.
Don't get me going about Fain. So much wasted potential o_O
I was OK with it being obvious as at the time it just increased the dread you felt with Rand not doing anything about it. I thought the way they resolved it was fine although you did feel like they wasted a good bad guy by only giving him a little screen time in his triumphant reveal. The big problem I had with the Sanderson ending was the Isam/slayer wrap up. I felt that was poorly done.
Interesting. What was poorly done about that in your opinion?
@@NaeBlis Clearly what was needed was slayer splitting into isam and luc, and then having them both fight eachother to the death, and where both of them died...
@@NaeBlis you have to bear with me as I only read the entire series about three or four times (ending with MOL) so I'm not as fresh as yourself. I remember them building up the duality and history of Isam and expected something more to come out of it, something that would be more threatening to one of the main characters. Sanderson seemed to wrap it up at warp speed with little detail or nuance, according to my memory. The Demandred/Taim mystery, the Taim mystery, and the Verin mystery were the three subplots I thought were most mysterious and interesting. I understand the author had his plate full but I was disappointed with the Isam portion.
This. The dread. Knowing/suspecting Taim of Forsaken-level evil corrupting the black tower (even more) is just about as nasty as A'rangar getting his/her hands on Egwene every night
Also Taim and Demandred have similiar physical descriptions. I also though RJ had changed his mind because i believed the theory early on. Feel vindicated now that Sanderson had the same idea.
Yes we definitely could see them combined into one character as I think 13 Forsaken may be a bit unwieldy for the TV Show.
The shows going to be a soap opera.