you must have forgotten something, one of the things mat thinks about is the fact that he remembers being the general on both sides of a battle and even remembers both sides of single combat at least once as in remembers dying one side and killing the dying one on the other
@@rbkstrm I honestly don't remember what book it it is in, but I do know the memory about the two memory takes place under I tree, Weather Mat is under a tree the dual is under a tree or both I don't remember
I think that the Finns tried to torture Mat with the memories of battles. All throughout the series Mat has tried to avoid battles and war and such, saying that all he ever wanted was a cuddle with a willing wench, a game of dice and a full wine cup (in no particular order). But the Finns always give you your request with a catch, and the catch was that the memories Mat requested to fill the holes in his own were the last memories that he would have wanted: thousands upon thousands of battles.
I'm not sure I buy it though. Mat thought it up. That doesn't make it true. I tend to go with the idea that he is bound to the wheel, and the aaelfin just made his memory more clear to him. Just as Rand's memories become stronger as he integrates himself...
@@RichFreeman mat ain't a hero of the horn (it is actually said in AMoL) so he doesn't have had a number of epic lives. it's the first time he is spun by the wheel to a role of great significance
@@tokusutakechi7632 nothing in the book says that only heros of the horn have prior lives. Obviously Rand has, and all the ages are repetitive. Everybody swears by their hope of rebirth so it seems like rebirth is common. Even the heros of the horn don't seem to only have "epic" prior lives. Birgitte seems to have some more mundane prior experiences.
@@tokusutakechi7632 He is not a hero of the horn, he is the "horn blower". There is no reason he should be any different. Rand is not a hero of the horn either, but he is still being weaved in to the wheel. Also when Mat blows in the horn for the first time, some of the people are intrigued by how he looks *this time*.
@Jussi Ahonen SOILER AMOL That is true. Yet I feel that even if everyone is reborn as the wheel turns there is no reasons that Mat, of all people should be able to tap into his other live's memories. I get why Rand does (with the precise knowledge of who he used to be and the madness loosening his grasp on reality), but mat never learns of his past lives neither goes he mad. Aside from that when we encounter Brigitte she seems to say that reincarnations à quite far appart and the further the less clear are the details. Mat memories are very numerous and all in the few thousand years since the breaking. He would have had to be reborn once every two generations to get that amount. As for the fact the heroes from the horn said he looks different "this time" it may be a polite way to tell him that they are not used to be marshalled by à shepherd with hay in his hairs. I don't think it means that he is the "sounder of the horn reborn" since it is Olver who turns out to fulfil that role.
I am re-reading the series and have just reached the part in Dragon Reborn where Mat makes his first um, introductions, to Galad and Gawyn on the White Tower practice field, and he is already showing these memories, unknowingly using the Old Language and saying he is from Manatheren when the Warder weapons master asks where he is from. Maybe holding the cursed dagger for so long and his Healing has already started unlocking the old blood and past life memories
I think Robert Jordan may have been playing word games. The memories arent from Matts (biological) ancestors. They were his reincarnations and unrelated directly by blood. I havent seen the fan theory so I dont know if this holds up.
@@mhail7673 They could be memories from different timelines where he served on either side in each. He could have won or lost that battle from both sides in two timelines that look alike, but with small differences. This does hinge on thinking that Mat is destined to be a general in most of his lives. We do have several examples of people being reincarnated to go through certain things many times, I can't say "every" time because there's an unknown amount of cycles having occurred...
I believe Robert Jordan struggled with some of these character questions and abilities in the earlier novels. Mats character obviously undergoes a big transformation from books 1-2 to 3-4. His flashback memories of command and battle seem like there beginning to appear in the eye of the world in their first battle with Trollocs and even when he fights Galad and Gawyn, but they just seem too much like plot armor and “luck.” His random spouting of the old tongue seems just that, random. But somehow he understands the Elfin even before the memories are planted, and doesn’t need a translator on his first visit in the arches. Once he visits the foxes than Jordan has a coherent explanation for Mat’s abilities and his character arc really stabilizes. After that all the inconsistencies of early on are never mentioned again. I always thought it interesting that on book 3 the black Ajah steals a dice ter’angreal that allows them to control chance. Though never mentioned again, I believe they used it to mark Mat his first night in tar valor so that the gray man assassin would be able to find him in the city. Somehow mat twists the luck to his advantage, survives and is blessed with continuous effects of great luck. In the early books there are several inconsistencies, There are many moments where moraine and Verin warn rand not to channel, (because the damane can sense it) or are afraid to channel because they think Sammael or Belal will sense it. After book three we learn that Male channeling cannot be detected by women at all (until book 10) and female channeling cannot be sensed , only knowledge of a woman holding the power very nearby can be perceived. I love the series, but definitely believe that RJ was still ironing out some of the rules as he went, and it’s not til the later books that everything becomes more clear and consistent
Sorry for responding to a 2 year old comment... but hey, it is close to 10 years since I finished the books the first time so it would have been "late" anyway. And us true fans, we will probably never finish discussing theories and the books in general. I do agree in most things what you said about Jordan not having a finished idea in the first 3-4 books and that why some things are not completely coherent through-out the books. On the other hand, male channelers have not populated the world in the last 3.000 years if you do not count on those found and stilled. I think that if you would have been a man channeling you would have a very small chance of being found by the red ajah - unless you showed it off in a big display which caused gossip! I think that was what happened in general. Some men was desperate when their child/wife was in direct danger and then reached out to the One Power for help. It was probably a miracle, which then started a gossip that traveled to Tar Valon and the sisters understood what a gossip meant - channeling! It was either a wilder or a man and Tar Valon responded accordingly. 3.000 years of men going mad would probably lead to a very effective network among the Reds to quickly find any men before madness took them. This became quite a rambling from my side, but I wanted to back my point with some story... what I think is that the sisters had absolutely no idea or even interest of finding out about saidin - except for stopping it. I think that as soon as they reached a village, they immediately find the correct man. Shielded him and took him to Tar Valon. The Aes Sedai had no idea that they actually couldn't know if a man was channeling or not! They only knew about woman to woman channeling. Furthermore, Aes Sedai behaviour is quite pitty... even if they actually knew about this, I do not think that they would want to inform this among themselves and definitely not to the rest of the world! "Aes Sedai is all-knowing". What if the truth would come out that it can be thousands of men alive that is channeling daily and the sisters had no knowledge about this? Think about the panic that could be spread! I do agree that from time to time, the characters have indeed plot armor! At least a few of the characters should probably have died already in Eye of the World, I'm thinking about the "battle" before Shadar Logoth, inside Shadar Logoth, the myrddraal finding Mat and Rand... Tom sacrificing himself and finally, how the HELL can both Aginor and Balthamel die against the Green Man, a simple Aes Sedai and Rand - without killing more '"people" than the Green Man?? This is truly plot armor in my case! I have heard that Jordan had thought about having 4 boys from Two Rivers, both finally came to the conclusion that 3 was enough. So the fourth (which I think could have been Dannil) was removed from the main story to only be a smaller part. When I was 15-16 and read the story the first time I was super happy that everyone survived... but now when I'm older and a little more realistic (as much as you can be, when discussing a fantasy), I think that it would have been better to have 4 boys and letting one of them die during the first book. It might not have been a good read, I might hate Jordan for killing off a beloved character but it would definitely create a sense of fear that Rand or Mat for example could die - which is the biggest reason to why A Song of Ice and Fire is such a good story. Well, it is not better than Wheel of Time... but there is no plot armor and killing off people usually pushes the story and other characters further.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mat was born time and time again as generals and soldiers in every position so that when the time came, he would be ready to lead the Army of the Dragon against the Dark One and Demandred.
But you never see him as anything but a leader of men in those memories - he's never a grunt, there are moments where he's an officer in the thick of the fighting, but he's never a simple footsman.
@@Ceolmochridbe02 given his distaste for nobility, it could be he has never been a noble in a past life and has always started at the bottom and worked his way up.
@@chadwhitfield6946 I mean that depends on a few things. First, how the wheel works. How close are things on each turn of the wheel. I tend to assume they are varied more than this, but can we be certain. If the same battles happen in different turns of the wheel then someone could indeed be on both sides of the same battle. Secondly it assumes a fair amount about spirits. Some of this is implied or said in the wheel of time, but it's not as firm as that. Do we know for certain that spirits are tied to time like that. I think so, but I'm not sure. Could a spirit split and then recombine? probably not, but do we know?
I always thought that Matt had some ancestor memories from Menetheren before he went through the doorway, but he still had big gaps in his head. The Fin then filled the gaps with other memories that may or may not have been from his past lives, or maybe both.
He did. He awakens from a dream sequence early in the third book where he lived the final day of his ancestors from Manetheren. While the Aes Sedai were separating him from the Shadar Logoth dagger, he was basically a reincarnation of this ancestor for a brief moment.
Since the first 2 books he was talking the old tongue without noticing, moraine explain it as the force of the old blood and ewgene weirdly and curiosly was mentioned to feel a resonance with the old tongue, it is later say, that explanation is shit for matrim but it fits ewgene. So yeah 1- matrim had the strongest line of hero (ancestors) blood in the series.(doesn’t explain how he see the death of his ancestors tho) Or 2- He is a reincarnation of the same “hero” reborn since the breaking (and that’s why he sees the death of all)tha majority gamblers, generals, and joy to dance with girls and make them smile 😂 Or 3- something around the lines of 1 and 2 with a lot of salt add by the foxes.
When he asks Hawkwing if he's a hero of the horn, Hawkwing said no, but as one himself, Hawkwing has prescripts to adhere to. I think Mat may be the Hornsounder reborn...maybe.
Then what about Olver? I think he, same as Perrin, have the old blood connection that's further enhanced due to being Ta'veren. Perrin got the wolves and his ability with the world of dreams (he was a lot stronger there than Egwene, the aes sedai and the wise ones combined). Mat got his battle command prowess that the fox and snakes further enhanced. I really think they were spun that way to help the champion that the wheel also spun, I think Rand's needs were the real catalyst for their powers. Rand needed 2 persons for specific tasks during his fight, one for guarding the dream world and one to command his forces so the wheel gave them to him. They might be heroes tied to the wheel but not necessarily imo.
@@omysadat yes this is my thought as well. Rand is often called the strongest ever Taveren, the pattern spun the Dragons greatest weapons out all at the same time and put them within arms reach. They grew up with him so they would be bound to him by emotion, friendship and need. The pattern is bad ass.
Didn’t Artur Hawkwing explicitly tell Mat he wasn’t bound to the wheel? It’s been a few years since I read the books but I thought that was a thing that was said...
Absolutely true, this guy is wrong about mat being bound to the wheel cos hawkwing literally told him, no he wasn't. But it may be more cryptic than that
@@deborshidebnath4804 I'm pretty sure that he said he wasn't bound to the horn. That doesn't mean he couldn't be bound to the wheel only that he doesn't have to come when the horn is sounded. We don't know that Rand is bound to the horn either. There are a couple of reasons this could be, but the simplest would be that they tend to be alive when the horn is sounded (or at least when it's needed) and so don't need to be bound to it. Or perhaps Mat just doesn't like to be told what to do so won't bind himself to the horn.
Yes he said it. And he added that kind of line as i can remember; "You did more than enough to be one of us, but i don't know why you are not" i always thought Mat was one of the horn heroes before Artur's that line.
It wasn’t hawkings iirc (i just go and check it) it was hend the striker, and it’s implied that he should be one of them but it is not. My theory is because its not need to, he is the son of battles tho (implying he is not a “random new soul, “) and doesn’t want to.
Matt states in one or more of the later books, I think when he's on his way to rescue Moraine, that the snakes and foxes can see everything once a deal is struck, and that they can't really surprise them as a result. This would easily explain why they have access to memories of death.
Yes. He says they are in his head and may already know they are coming. Whether the can see the span of a humans life all in one go ... which would also explain why they seem to tell the future, or they create a bond to that person that records their memories from that point until it is broken in death. Hard to tell. I like to believe that be cause of their position on a different part of the pattern, they can see how a person's thread is likely to be woven .
It's always my head cannon that Matt get is tied to the horn and each time the horn sounds he's grumpy as all get out over the fact he's stuck playing the hero. But he doesn't realize he tied until after his death when he finds home self in the World of Dreams with Brigita taunting him the whole time.
The theory is based on the assumption that the Foxes do not experience time as linear. There's just not enough information provided to establish that is a truth. A theory based on assumption is going to be flawed and I think there are other more meaningful questions about Mat. It would be interesting to know Mat's experiences when Rand was using the Portal Stones and flickering them through the varied life experiences. The first words out of Mat's mouth is a promise to never betray Rand. You can shrug it off as the might have beens, however, the choices Mat made in worlds of flickerverse had enough impact on Mat that for the first time he made an "adult" decision and makes the promise to Rand. If you accept that Mat's memories are past life had he previously betrayed The Dragon? What was the power of that promise and did it alter the course of Mat's life which lead to being less Loki trickster and more general?
Foxes definitely experience time linearly. They literally say how long it has been since someone has come through the door. Thus, time is experienced linearly. Or else they wouldn't care about the gap. Also I think Mat just saw all his possible lives, just like Rand.
He had A memory from ONE ancestor in Manetheren. Even before RJ said it in interviews, this all seemed pretty clear & straightforward in the text of the books. Even the memories of dying has been worked out.
I was going to reread a bit before the series airs but your videos recall things and even point out new things I probably wouldn't have even thought about! Keep doing my work for me so I can be lazy!!
I could have sworn that Mat mention's having memories of both sides of some battles. The Old Blood part is something, a part that supports this is that when Mat speaks the Old Tongue in the early books, one of the other Two Rivers characters remarks that it felt like they could almost understand what he said, like it was just at the tip of their tongue. I'll have to recheck though.
Alright, Naebs, I concede. I really do like this theory and am willing to accept it as canon. I always thought it was contradictory that the Foxes had given him his memories, yet he was having flashbacks and speaking the Old Tongue long before he went through that doorway. This theory explains this to me and that is all I need. =) Great video!
@@jamestea00 I think so, but to be honest. I didn't notice it this time around. I don't think I did last time either. But I remember being a bit frustrated at the time the books came out. Anyway, next book, the knife of dreams, is considered one of the better ones if i remember correctly. I tend not to care too much about what others think about specific books though :)
@@thehoogard I think I noticed a bit this read through, but not the first time. Obviously it's still great though! And in that case, I'm excited to get to the next book! It's been long enough I've forgotten a lot.
The theory in question is shoddily researched. It dismisses the Aemon connection even though the attributes we know of Aemon (unrivaled courage, known as a shrewd gambler (lucky) and a master military strategist) map perfectly onto Mat. And then there's this passage from Chapter 19, The Dragon Reborn, before he received any memories from the Finn: “Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem,” he murmured. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked-something. The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans’ number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer. They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward.” His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line. Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death. He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward.” He was first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle!” The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!” Mat’s hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. “Los Valdar Cuebiyari,” he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant-“Forward the Heart Guard,” or maybe “The Heart Guard will advance”-but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Tongue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.
Mat may have gotten some stuff from the old blood. The evidence of that was him speaking the old blood before Shadar Logoth and when he was being healed. Although the things he said may have been the influence of the dagger as well. I'm currently listening to the series but I'm all the way at book 12 so I don't remember exactly what he said but he said some anti Aes Sedai stuff which would fit because the people of Shadar Logoth kinda hated Aes Sedai. His memories of battle didn't come from the old blood nor did his ability to speak the old tongue fluently. Birgitte actually says to him in his room at Mistress Anan's Inn the old blood can be responsible for a few words or phrases but that Mat jumps between accents and timelines. As to how Matt remember's dying that's simple. Mat himself says that he believes the memories were from after they visited the Tower. So they do not take your memories up to the point you enter but all memories after you leave. I just listened to this part so im pretty sure that's what he said he says it near the end of book 11. He told Thom that he could not go with him because the Finn would know they were coming. Also i'm pretty he mentions knowing Hawkwing from more than one memory so some of his memories were from the same time period. So the early stuff can be explained by the old blood but there is no evidence that they are responsible for ANY of his battle memories. I also think he is bound to the horn in some way and I did have a theory that he was one of the heroes of the Horn but I believe that was shattered when one of the heroes of the horn said he was not one. But Matt asked him outright and I'm sure one of the precepts would have prevented them telling him if he was. But think about it. If only someone bound to the horn can blow it how poetic would that be? The only two people to blow the horn are Matt and Olver and I dont think its even a theory right now but Olver is definitely Gaidal Cain...
Olver is certainly ugly enough to be Gaidal Cain, but didnt we see Gaidal in Tel'aran'rhiod in book... like 6? When Elayne and Nyaneve were traveling with Luca's show before Bergitte was cast out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Mogidian? But then she couldnt find him later so she thought hed been spun out. The whole 14 books takes place over 2 ish years so that would make Gaidal a baby wouldnt it? I mean, assuming time in Tel'aran'rhiod is only 'hours seem like minutes an vise versa' dream perception screwy, and not 'years folding into each other' screwy.
Olver isn't Gaidal Cain. Birgitte states he's only a couple years, or few years, older than her when she's about to be reborn after talking with Elayne. And I'd say Olver is just a tad bit older than a "few" years.
Multiverse theory. The world of the snakes and foxes may be reached from any of the multiple realities reached by portal stone. They could have harvested memories from many worlds or times and a thousand versions of the soul that is Matrim Cauthon. I like the idea that some memories are his from past incarnations and that some are stolen memories of others, thus the few times he recalls both sides of a battle as well as dying
Now that this sparked my thought process, also let me toss out Shahar Logoth as a possible source of some memories as well as a path to other ancestors. Mashadar consumed and entire city, and its touch lingered in Mat for months, possibly leaving behind memories or links...
Yes he is bound to the wheel. However both theories are correct. The memories are Mats. However they are made accessible to him by the foxes. Most likely in his past lives he also had to trade an eye. (Half the world to save the world) but then again Mat does remember dying in that place as much as the foxes claiming to love taverin essence the most.
I've subscribed to the idea that Matt has memories of his past lives wherein he was always the number 2 non-shadow general of his day. While Matt is bound to the wheel, his parts in history have always been overshadowed by other greater people. Even in this incarnation as the Grand Marshall of the Armies of the Light, during Tarmon Gaidan, he is in the shadow of the Dragon Reborn. Where this role drove Demandred to the Shadow during the War of Power, Matt thrives in it and prefers to have everyone's attention on someone else.
I have already started my re-read on Audible. I'm halfway through EOTW and I've talked my husband into listening too. I've read through the whole series 3 times before.
I'm inclined to believe they unlocked what was already there, and supplemented with what they had to fill in gaps. If they're dealing in non-linear time, then it's possible that some of those lives haven't occurred yet, or that he could very well be at least some of those people who have come in before.
Mats memories prior to the finns were his ancestors/the old blood, and memories from the finns were from previous lives/incarnations. They cant just be random memories cause they are mostly battles. Of course it could just be that way because Jordan wanted it that way.
There's a point in the book where Mat recognizes he has no memories of any of those dead general's childhoods. Something like "he remembered a hundred deaths, but not one memory of boyhood," which leads him to understanding exactly what the Finns do with memories, and why it's their currency. Mat himself surmises that the deal one makes for answers yields access to your memories for the Finns from the point of the deal onward, but nothing before that. Of course nothing says that's true, the finns might just keep the childhood memories for themselves since the emotional content is so much rawer and richer. What's clear is that Mat's connection to Manetheren and the Old Tongue is outstanding enough for Moiraine to comment on as early as the first few days out of Emond's Field in EOTW. Mat's bellowing old Manetheren warcries from the word go, the difference is post memory-injection he becomes completely fluent, only with inconsistent accents and dialects, as commented on by Birgitte. I think the best metaphor to explain Mat is the Quarterstaff and the Ashanderei. Mat was already a hero, so much so that fresh off of an exhausting healing, emaciated from both the treatment and the disease of the ruby dagger, he scrubs two sword-prodigies 2v1 with a quarterstaff. Post Rhuidean, in his first fights the "way of weapon seemed familiar" and this is connected to "those memories in his head" but other fights connect his familiarity and skill with ashanderei with his training in the quarterstaff from his father. "This is a killing blow, Mat." Mat is the Quarterstaff, and the Ashanderei, and he was always meant to be both. To Mat, the memories were forced on him, to the Finns, seeming scoundrels outside the Wheel and Light and Shadow, those Memories were taken from those generals because Mat. So, in a strange way, whether those generals were ever part of his reincarnation path or not (which I'm sure the books confirm is impossible), those memories were always his right, because he is the Son of Battles, and no snake is too quick for the Trickster, and no one outFoxes the Gambler. He is the best character in the whole book, and the origins of his power should be as obfuscated in turning of the Wheel as the Dragon's. I love your channel.
Mat says/thinks in the books about these memrories and tells US that sometimes he does experience the same war from both side, sometimes even in the same battle
If you pay close attention to Matt's memories of past battles, it is clear some of them take place in the same timeframe from different points of view. Yes, they might be years apart. But not the decades apart they would need to be if they were from the same soul reincarnated. As far as I can tell, "past lives" aren't the same as the old blood running true. Matt might have a genetic predisposition to battle from the old blood including racial memories. But that isn't the same as memories from prior reincarnations. Birgitte Silverbow wasn't always reincarnated in one of her blood descendants. She frequently didn't have children, so no blood descendants. This means there are three possible sources for the memories. Reincarnation memories, blood memories, and the foxes. Matt has some from the blood, but far more from the foxes. It is not clear how the foxes got the memories. There is an implication that they got them from people who went through the door, but the foxes clearly have other abilities. Including the ability to foretell the future which would mean heavily touching the pattern in other ways. The doorway was not required but may have been used. All three of the boys from Two Rivers (and a lot of other characters from Two Rivers) likely had a genetic predisposition for skills and memories from Manetheren. The skills with the longbow are particularly telling. Longbow skills normally take a decade of practice to develop. Something farmers don't usually get. England had to pass laws preventing other activities and giving tax breaks to ensure its supply of trained yeomen. They imported bow staves despite the heavy presence of yew trees in England. An ungoverned place couldn't normally produce them. Yet the Two Rivers put together dozens of them. Mat is bound to the wheel. He is obviously a reincarnation of Odin. Odin the one-eyed, god of death, the gallows, royalty, battle, and victory. He is an archetype.
i always thought of it like this that Mat being healed in the White Tower awakened those memories, but they were jumbled and split but then the Foxes filled the gaps.
Na'blis thank you so much for this video. I had mentioned in one of your previous videos that Matt's memory and his place in the wheel was one of my biggest frustrations with Jordan because he left it so unclear. At times the explanations within the book felt like a poorly-written red herring. I like how this fan Theory Bridges the cat that said the foxes gave him his memories as well as them being Matt's own. My long-running theory was that the memories were in fact Matt and that they were memories of his battles from past lived lies. Also the fact that Hawk Wing knew him solidify for me that he was part of the wheel. I want to hope that the TV series flash has some of this stuff out. However I'm not sure how strong my interest will be until I see these actors on screen. The fact that principal photography just began and the actors such as Perrin does not look anything like the character. I'm not talkin race I'm talking build. I hoped that these announcements of the actors with something they had kept under wraps for months. If that was the case then it would give them time to find a trainer to bulk up in some cases and train for their roles. They look very soft and that worries me
Its odd, if they have access to the lifespan of a person in a nonlinear fashion, wouldn't they know Mat would come to the Tower of Ghenjei later on and have a way to stop him? Then again, maybe they can only access what happens to others outside their realm? But they knew he'd lose an eye....moiraine said that they could only save her as long as certain things happend in the exact way for that specific future to take shape , so as long as those were given the Finn weren't able to stop him? It all being connected somehow, their behavior also being predestined as well? They aren't sure which future will occur though and all the possible paths Rand and Mats lives can take are overwhelming to them, which is why they seem to be in agony after a while? I don't think Mat was right when he theorized about them having some type of constant connection and watch his every move. I believe that was in book 9 or 10, when he chased after Tuon through the forest, and they encountered Tinkers on their way back to Camp. Might also be that after the persons death the memories somehow get transfered to the foxes? One thing about the snakes and foxes is for sure though... I get headaches from thinking about them.
@@noahbauer6387 also they mentioned repeatedly, it had been a long time since anybody had visited them... And then there's the aspect of the tower supposedly being impossible to escape in the dreamworld. Is that because time is so different in the dream that its completely out of whack if you enter from there? That difference might just be significant in figuring them out, I cant come up with anything though...Would have liked Perrin to explore that to be honest and see what happens. Although Birgitte is enough authority for me to take her word. Since she was concealed even from Hopper.
I was wandering about this earlier, because the very first battle against the trollocks as a party, rand and perrin, both shout "for manetheran" while mat shouts "Carai an Ellisande" and when asked what he said hes basically like "i dont remember" its in book 1 im pretty sure its before mat even gets the ruby dagger
Right, the explanation being the "Old Blood come again". This is reinforced later, described as a river being fractured into a thousand streams but eventually reforming. Egwene also has some of this, but not as much. His manetheran blood is awakened by the Shadar Logoth dagger
Past lives.... in essence from the Wheel and or the Pattern. My sense is that to have past memories we would need to access a static repository or some kind. Which implies a permanent structure within time. This also lends itself to the 'fins theory if they are able to facilitate the access to that structure.
In whole the Narrative, reincarnation is a important part.that in combination with Mat having strong Old Blood within and being Taveren almost makes certain that the memories of passed lives are within him from birth. This is proved in the battle of Falme where the dialogue with the legends is on the same level as being fellow warriors. Jordan says that the foxes filled the gaps with this memories but Jordan didn’t say those memories weren’t already within himself. Maybe the Foxes just did nothing more than unlocking them and the already present memories just flowed into the gaps. This effect can be seen in the narrative cause at some moments those memories seems really random. Another proof of the memories already being present is the fact that Mat was able to communicate with the snakes and foxes while Rand needed a translator.
I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was dancing around the question. He said that the memories are 'not from his ancestors', but from 'memories stolen from other men.' Well, you don't have to be your own ancestor when you are reborn, so that doesn't really discount the theory. I also wouldn't be surprised if Mat, being reborn again and again, chose to enter the twisted doorway, again and again, in search of answers. A lot of the men in his memories seem to share similarities, though this might just be Mat focusing on the people he can relate to.
Ok since the snakes n foxes don’t follow linear time this could suggest they gave Matt the memories for his entire life. Only when they’re relevant are they remembered for the most part. It’s similar to his ta'veren nature which also grows as time progresses!?!?!? Wibily wobaly timy wimy
Saying ‘the old blood is strong with him’ seems to me to be a common way of trying to understand someone being bound to the wheel and being reborn without being a philosopher. It seems to me, only people with knowledge concerning the wheel of time seems to get this.
As soon as I read that the Heros of The Horn recognized Mat in Book 2, I knew he was a hero bound to The Horn. To me, that is how I came to understand how he got the memories of others in Book 5. I didn't over analyze this, he is ta' veren after all.
My only quibble is that Brigita doesn’t seem to recognize Mat as another who is bound to the Wheel. I suspect it’s more of a literal genetic memory. That is why Verin says she couldn’t find anyone of note by the Ferry, too much mixing of blood with the outside world.
So the books seem to hint at Causality not being explicitly linear. As in, the Past is in part effected by the Future. Schrodinger cat, and all that. Its possible that Mat has multiple "paths" available to him as optional histories, but they aren't realized unless they need to be. So, his memories could be an amalgamation of possible past lives. Yeah, I know it sounds kinda nonsensical, but that's part of how magic can work, existing outside of logic and reason and causality.
Why is this still being debated? He is of the Old Blood. Past lives lived. In MoL, Mat asks Artur Hawkwing if he was tied to the wheel as a Hero of the Horn. Artur assures him he is not tied to the Horn if he did not want to be, not that he was tied to the Wheel, and it is mentioned in TGH, that maybe Heroes may be added as he looked over Mat and Hurin. When he goes into the ter'angreal the first time, they recognize him as Son of Battles. They gave him the memories of the enemies (of course these leaders would have went into the doorway) so that he had the perspective from both sides.
I thought it had something to do with Matt blowing that horn... though i don't remember if he blew it before the Hawks Army made landfall... seem to remember him blowing it once when they found it in the eye.. thought the horn bound him to the pattern
What if the Snakes and Foxes relationship with time is non-linear in both directions and so when the holes in memory happened there was a manner of echo already filling them from the eventual deal that was made? Then, because Mat was bound to the wheel the types of skills and memories which surfaced were related to the lives of people from the area he had been raised in because of his genetics.
Just the fact that he beats Galad and Gawyn in the practice yard is strange. A farm boy with a stick beats two Warder trained princes show there is more to Matt than meets the eye.
Matt was already unknowingly speaking in the old tongue as early as the eye of the world. He shouted it fighting in the Blight on the way to see the Green Man
Here is a question for all wheel of time folks. RJ said this story is our past present and future. Do you believe Matrim Cauthon could have continued to be reborn in the timeline throught history and his soul may be living right now?
Isn't it basically confirmed in the books that the foxes create a link to you when you visit them that lets them watch/record the rest of your life from then? That's why Mat only has memories from older people.
Wow, I had the exact same theory for a long time. I'm glad to see others have the same idea. Mat said to the foxes "Fill the holes in my memory", and he had a gap of 2000 years in his memory that needed to be filled with something. The Aelfinn did what they can. By the way, in the books (in book 13, I think) is actually explained how the Finn got memories of people's deaths: when they make a deal with a human, some sort of bond is created, and they can "save" all the memories they want, starting from that moment. Mat was scared about this: he theorized the the Finn could know about his plans.
Good time to bring up WoT Spoiler’s theory about mat. Think of a penny that’s dirty (Mat with the dagger) through the copper shines the core which contains some past memories protected by current “self”/copper. When they magic the dagger away, they left the copper thinner, like swiss cheese exposing more of the past memories. Then mat asked the Finn/aelfinn to fill up said cheese, and they did. It’s both.
Late to the discussion, but I have my own theory that not only is Mat bound to the Horn, but that Mat is bound to being the Hornsounder. Hawkwing addresses him as such when he first sounds the Horn, but that may simply be because Mat was holding the Horn and Artur could see that he had been the one that sounded it. However, given the cyclical nature of Robert Jordan's world building, I would not be surprised if Mat Or some other incarnation of that soul is always the Hornsounder.
When Mat blows the Horne if Volare the ghosts that rise speak as if there is a consequence of blowing the horne that Mat doesn't know of. That he wasn't bound to the cycle of the battle at Shyol Ghul and now he is is implied to my understanding at least. Rand was supposed to blow the horne not Mat after all.
Obviously an old video, but I'm currently re-reading the novels. Strangely, there doesn't seem to be any theory here that at least some of his past memories may have come from the Shadar Logoth dagger. Which is strange considering Aridhol was not only around in the time of Manetheren, but also closer to the Blight and more likely to see war. In addition to that, Moiraine suggests that Mordeth attempts to possess bodies of people he could use to escape Shadar Logoth, specifically asking if Mordeth had gifted the boys anything, which he had not, Mat had stolen the dagger. Presumably, any battle knowledge obtained prior to meeting the snakes or foxes, came from Mordeth's corruption via the dagger, at least partially overwriting parts of Mat's memory. Mat's past memories that are not his own, are more detailed and informative as the series continues, suggesting that he only had Mordeth's knowledge to begin with, and once the memory holes were filled, he knew far more than a single man's experiences.
Maybe it was the dagger from shadar logoth. Shadar Logoth consumed everybody in the city and everybody who went there after. He could have gained some memories from the dagger.
I think the Son of Battles name came from the A&E knowing the future pattern. That was sort of the whole point about them. They knew how Matt was weaved. That he would need certain items in the future, etc. So I think the military general memories were from them. Yes the blood was very strong with him, thus the speaking in old tongue and a little more there. Bound to the wheel? maybe so...
Its very convincing. But idk if he's bound to the wheel. Never really thought about this topic too much. I've always wondered what the horn of valere really is. It's not a terangreal so idk. Great video again man.
This isn't on-topic, but it occurred to me that there's a huge logic hole in both the book and the series and that is punishing men who can channel. It's like punishing someone who gets a disease and makes no sense. Keeping Mazrim tain alive and a prisoner after he's been captured and stilled(?) as a warning to other men makes not a bit of sense either.
Porque no dos? Matt's Old Blood memories allowed the Foxes access to the memories tied to Wheel and the Foxes reinserted those into Matt so he had access to them in the present.
OK, so my tuppence 'orth - the Aefinn gather memories in a way that's like surveillance software on a computer. They gain access to what's already there, and as new memories are formed, they get those too, and it lasts right up until you die. As for how they experience time, it's probably linear, but when we consider the ability of the Aelfinn to prophesy accurately - seemingly at will (or in concordance with their old treaties, maybe), they have some sense at least of the future. Perhaps it's a more controlled and voluntary form of the Foretelling Aes Sedai sometimes exhibit, perhaps not.
Memory is a tricky thing. As far as we can tell in the present, memories are made up of neural pathways being strengthened and reinforced. The more often a certain memory is recalled, the more those pathways are strengthened. So, what if Mat already having some ancient memories of battles past, on account of being a Hero of the Horn, made it that much easier for his mind to incorporate memories of _even more_ battles into his mind? So they stuffed his head with all kinds of memories, but the memories of battle were the ones that stuck.
It all sounds pretty correct to me. Though the holes in his memory began after Tar Valon. So they were likely an after effect of the dagger. The foxes definitely filled the holes in. They tell him he will wed Tuon, obviously they can read the pattern, and they give him nicknames based on his personality. Mat is more than a mere hero of the horn, our current heroes save the pattern itself!
in 4th book after the bard story mat remembers a battle where he lived both in the group that fought bravely and was allowed to live and then getting betrayed after and soon after he remembers being the king who betrayed them
Just finished the books last night and if it wasn’t for mat I don’t think I would of finished especially around book 8-9, absolute MVP of the series for me
Mat is...weird! I'm thinking Jordan never got finished with him. He could have started remembering past lives on his own, then..he fell into shadow. Lost more than memories to that cursed dagger! He lost his affinity for the Light. Without it , the dream world is forbidden to him, he can't be rebound to the Horn. Yes ,he was one of the Heroes of the horn at some time, how else would Hawkwind know him? At the end he leaves for the west! Not east toward the sun, west away from the sun, into shadow! i'm thinking this incarnation made him a bridge , someone who can go into shadow to bring the sawnchan back into the light! Hell, the whole continent is blighted ! Someone has to clean it up! Rand is not available, not to mention he 's wielding the one power now, Perin is busy ruling to the east, who's left? Mat! The Finn supplied some of his memories , from their own store, but it should never have happened! The whole shadar Logoth incident was an accident! Something unforeseen by both Powers. Threw a huge spike into their plan, so they started scrambling trying to bring things back on course. See...I'll let you in on a little secret. Neither the Creator Nor the dark one are Autonomous! The Wheel rules them both! Who's who..that depends, but one is bound while the other creates. Always! I'm thinking they trade places sometimes, but both are bound ot the wheel. Which his why the dark one wants to break the wheel. He wants freedom!
If the Finns feed on memories in a non linear fashion you could argue that the memories given could effect Mats thread in a non linear way also. Once his story progressed to a point where he would inevitably enter the doorway and strike his deal, he would start to manifest others memories. Effect proceeds cause maybe.
This is borderline not a theory, more just an accurate statement of what happens. Mat does have the Old Blood, which only initially manifests in talking the old tongue, which Moraine states is a thing that happens, just not usually as strongly. The Shadar Logoth dagger, and the ordeal that comes with it is what starts blurring the lines between his past lives and his current one. He goes to the Finn, who can name him Son of Battles, Trickster, and Gambler because of their wacky 4-dimensional perception of time. So some of his memories are past lives in Manetheran , the rest of his memories are people who visited the doorway in Tear (which had moved around frequently, previously being kept in Mayene). The question might be why were so many of Mat's memories able to be of battles. Likely, there was a period of time where the doorway was better known, and a popular pilgrimage for generals and battle leaders. Mat's soul is not bound to the Wheel any more than perrins is. Rand is bound to the Wheel, and Likely the horn, I would assume that lews therin doesn't answer the call because Rand is living, but I believe Hawkwing recognizes Rand at falme. Everything else that happens to Mat, in fact everything that happens to him at all is because he is an extremely strong Ta'veren, woven by the pattern to play a key role in the time of the last battle. He gets what he does because he, and the pattern, have a need, so the pattern weaves him into as it requires.
Mat would have to be reborn with really scary frequency for all his memories to come from his past lives. He has multiple memories from the same general time periods - notably the Trolloc Wars (not a big deal, they lasted a long time) and Artur Hawkwing's wars (rather more significant). He has so many memories from so many sources, apparently *ALL* from the current version of the Third Age, that even having them all come from men who passed through the twisted doorframe ter'angreal is kind of stretching plausibility. Having his memories come from both his past lives and from other souls whose memories were available to the *finn makes it rather more reasonable.
Mat bound to the Wheel? No. Artur Hawking and Hend the Striker explicitly deny that Mat is one of them when the Horn is sounded at the Last Battle; said that Mat is too independent-minded to be bound to the Wheel.
I disagree, he is a hero of the horn. They said he's too independent as a joke. Mat throughout the series is bound by one oath or another, hardly too independent
Okay... People are taking this literally. First, he got his memories from the foxes. These memories are from military past lives of Matt. As for his family's bloodline, he does not get any memories from them. Just like Silverbow, to get reborn, you don't get reborn in the same bloodline.
The longest fan theory was the memories came from people that visited finnland before hand. Its from memories harvested from those who went through the door frame ter'angreal.
The idea that Mat is bound to the wheel is very interesting. The fact that Artur Hawkwing seems to recognize him bolsters that, but what about Birgitte? I'm mid way through a re-read and I know they become "bros" but can't remember if she recognizes him from her past as well?
I always thought that the fins gave him the memories of his past lives. But he that is Matt said he remembered fighting hawkwing and fighting against him as different memories so maby not past lives.
It's a cool theory, but I would like to add that as to them recognizing him, it could also just be that they recognize the current horn-blower, and that by blowing it, he's bound. My own interpretation was always that while yes, he might have strong ties to old Manetheren blood, his memories came from him being changed in the near-death experience. :) It's also possible that not just Ishamael is there as an opponent to Rand through the ages. Maybe the Slayer was always born to be Perrin's enemy, and Demandred to be Mat's, and so the weave gave them tools to deal with their "ancestral" enemy. Feels a little bit unlikely, though :)
There is a scene in the first book when Rand, Perrin, and Matt enter the Blight for the first time with Moirane and Lan. The "old blood" comes out in Matt as he yells "Menetheren! Menetheren! Menetheren!" gallops ahead, and starts shooting menacing trees. I can only imagine Lan and Moirane looking at each other and thinking WTF?
Mat is definitely a hero of the horn. There is no other explanation. The fact that this time he is ta'veren and has encountered the snakes and foxes has manipulated the pattern to allow the memories to manifest. He doesn't just remember. There are many times in the book that he states that he relives those moments of the past in his head. Brigitte has old memories from her previous lives although that is due to different circumstances.
Interesting idea. Though I can't remember where or if it was actually Mat that said it (talking to one hero of hord or other) in the spirit of "Am I one of you," or something to that effect, and after some pregnant pause getting a negaive on that. Of course I might misremember or have totally made it up by jumbling book info. Oh well. ;-)
Have you listened to the Pruage Orchestra Wheel of Time music, yet? It is beautiful! Some of the strains sound like something you can here in LotR: Two Towers, when Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn enter Rohan; to me anyway :-)
you must have forgotten something, one of the things mat thinks about is the fact that he remembers being the general on both sides of a battle and even remembers both sides of single combat at least once as in remembers dying one side and killing the dying one on the other
Cool, i don't remember that. Out of which book is that?
@@rbkstrm I honestly don't remember what book it it is in, but I do know the memory about the two memory takes place under I tree, Weather Mat is under a tree the dual is under a tree or both I don't remember
I think that the Finns tried to torture Mat with the memories of battles. All throughout the series Mat has tried to avoid battles and war and such, saying that all he ever wanted was a cuddle with a willing wench, a game of dice and a full wine cup (in no particular order). But the Finns always give you your request with a catch, and the catch was that the memories Mat requested to fill the holes in his own were the last memories that he would have wanted: thousands upon thousands of battles.
Amazing idea.
Can you even really call this a fan theory when Mat himself thought up every part of it in the books?
I'm not sure I buy it though. Mat thought it up. That doesn't make it true.
I tend to go with the idea that he is bound to the wheel, and the aaelfin just made his memory more clear to him. Just as Rand's memories become stronger as he integrates himself...
@@RichFreeman mat ain't a hero of the horn (it is actually said in AMoL) so he doesn't have had a number of epic lives. it's the first time he is spun by the wheel to a role of great significance
@@tokusutakechi7632 nothing in the book says that only heros of the horn have prior lives. Obviously Rand has, and all the ages are repetitive. Everybody swears by their hope of rebirth so it seems like rebirth is common.
Even the heros of the horn don't seem to only have "epic" prior lives. Birgitte seems to have some more mundane prior experiences.
@@tokusutakechi7632 He is not a hero of the horn, he is the "horn blower". There is no reason he should be any different. Rand is not a hero of the horn either, but he is still being weaved in to the wheel. Also when Mat blows in the horn for the first time, some of the people are intrigued by how he looks *this time*.
@Jussi Ahonen SOILER AMOL That is true. Yet I feel that even if everyone is reborn as the wheel turns there is no reasons that Mat, of all people should be able to tap into his other live's memories. I get why Rand does (with the precise knowledge of who he used to be and the madness loosening his grasp on reality), but mat never learns of his past lives neither goes he mad.
Aside from that when we encounter Brigitte she seems to say that reincarnations à quite far appart and the further the less clear are the details. Mat memories are very numerous and all in the few thousand years since the breaking. He would have had to be reborn once every two generations to get that amount.
As for the fact the heroes from the horn said he looks different "this time" it may be a polite way to tell him that they are not used to be marshalled by à shepherd with hay in his hairs. I don't think it means that he is the "sounder of the horn reborn" since it is Olver who turns out to fulfil that role.
I am re-reading the series and have just reached the part in Dragon Reborn where Mat makes his first um, introductions, to Galad and Gawyn on the White Tower practice field, and he is already showing these memories, unknowingly using the Old Language and saying he is from Manatheren when the Warder weapons master asks where he is from. Maybe holding the cursed dagger for so long and his Healing has already started unlocking the old blood and past life memories
I think Robert Jordan may have been playing word games. The memories arent from Matts (biological) ancestors. They were his reincarnations and unrelated directly by blood. I havent seen the fan theory so I dont know if this holds up.
He literally remembered fighting on both sides of the same battle in several of the memories...
@@mhail7673 yes, I believe this is true.
@@mhail7673 They could be memories from different timelines where he served on either side in each. He could have won or lost that battle from both sides in two timelines that look alike, but with small differences. This does hinge on thinking that Mat is destined to be a general in most of his lives. We do have several examples of people being reincarnated to go through certain things many times, I can't say "every" time because there's an unknown amount of cycles having occurred...
@@TheNordawg , exactly.
Also, he states that he likes battles at the very beginning of Eye of the World, long before receiving the memories..
I believe Robert Jordan struggled with some of these character questions and abilities in the earlier novels. Mats character obviously undergoes a big transformation from books 1-2 to 3-4. His flashback memories of command and battle seem like there beginning to appear in the eye of the world in their first battle with Trollocs and even when he fights Galad and Gawyn, but they just seem too much like plot armor and “luck.” His random spouting of the old tongue seems just that, random. But somehow he understands the Elfin even before the memories are planted, and doesn’t need a translator on his first visit in the arches. Once he visits the foxes than Jordan has a coherent explanation for Mat’s abilities and his character arc really stabilizes. After that all the inconsistencies of early on are never mentioned again.
I always thought it interesting that on book 3 the black Ajah steals a dice ter’angreal that allows them to control chance. Though never mentioned again, I believe they used it to mark Mat his first night in tar valor so that the gray man assassin would be able to find him in the city. Somehow mat twists the luck to his advantage, survives and is blessed with continuous effects of great luck.
In the early books there are several inconsistencies, There are many moments where moraine and Verin warn rand not to channel, (because the damane can sense it) or are afraid to channel because they think Sammael or Belal will sense it. After book three we learn that Male channeling cannot be detected by women at all (until book 10) and female channeling cannot be sensed , only knowledge of a woman holding the power very nearby can be perceived. I love the series, but definitely believe that RJ was still ironing out some of the rules as he went, and it’s not til the later books that everything becomes more clear and consistent
Sorry for responding to a 2 year old comment... but hey, it is close to 10 years since I finished the books the first time so it would have been "late" anyway. And us true fans, we will probably never finish discussing theories and the books in general.
I do agree in most things what you said about Jordan not having a finished idea in the first 3-4 books and that why some things are not completely coherent through-out the books. On the other hand, male channelers have not populated the world in the last 3.000 years if you do not count on those found and stilled. I think that if you would have been a man channeling you would have a very small chance of being found by the red ajah - unless you showed it off in a big display which caused gossip! I think that was what happened in general. Some men was desperate when their child/wife was in direct danger and then reached out to the One Power for help. It was probably a miracle, which then started a gossip that traveled to Tar Valon and the sisters understood what a gossip meant - channeling! It was either a wilder or a man and Tar Valon responded accordingly. 3.000 years of men going mad would probably lead to a very effective network among the Reds to quickly find any men before madness took them.
This became quite a rambling from my side, but I wanted to back my point with some story... what I think is that the sisters had absolutely no idea or even interest of finding out about saidin - except for stopping it. I think that as soon as they reached a village, they immediately find the correct man. Shielded him and took him to Tar Valon. The Aes Sedai had no idea that they actually couldn't know if a man was channeling or not! They only knew about woman to woman channeling. Furthermore, Aes Sedai behaviour is quite pitty... even if they actually knew about this, I do not think that they would want to inform this among themselves and definitely not to the rest of the world! "Aes Sedai is all-knowing". What if the truth would come out that it can be thousands of men alive that is channeling daily and the sisters had no knowledge about this? Think about the panic that could be spread!
I do agree that from time to time, the characters have indeed plot armor! At least a few of the characters should probably have died already in Eye of the World, I'm thinking about the "battle" before Shadar Logoth, inside Shadar Logoth, the myrddraal finding Mat and Rand... Tom sacrificing himself and finally, how the HELL can both Aginor and Balthamel die against the Green Man, a simple Aes Sedai and Rand - without killing more '"people" than the Green Man?? This is truly plot armor in my case! I have heard that Jordan had thought about having 4 boys from Two Rivers, both finally came to the conclusion that 3 was enough. So the fourth (which I think could have been Dannil) was removed from the main story to only be a smaller part. When I was 15-16 and read the story the first time I was super happy that everyone survived... but now when I'm older and a little more realistic (as much as you can be, when discussing a fantasy), I think that it would have been better to have 4 boys and letting one of them die during the first book. It might not have been a good read, I might hate Jordan for killing off a beloved character but it would definitely create a sense of fear that Rand or Mat for example could die - which is the biggest reason to why A Song of Ice and Fire is such a good story. Well, it is not better than Wheel of Time... but there is no plot armor and killing off people usually pushes the story and other characters further.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mat was born time and time again as generals and soldiers in every position so that when the time came, he would be ready to lead the Army of the Dragon against the Dark One and Demandred.
I totally thought this was implied while I read the books... I guess I was the only one.
But you never see him as anything but a leader of men in those memories - he's never a grunt, there are moments where he's an officer in the thick of the fighting, but he's never a simple footsman.
@@Ceolmochridbe02 given his distaste for nobility, it could be he has never been a noble in a past life and has always started at the bottom and worked his way up.
But I believe Mat has memories from opposing generals at different times. He can't have lived as both.
@@chadwhitfield6946 I mean that depends on a few things. First, how the wheel works. How close are things on each turn of the wheel. I tend to assume they are varied more than this, but can we be certain. If the same battles happen in different turns of the wheel then someone could indeed be on both sides of the same battle.
Secondly it assumes a fair amount about spirits. Some of this is implied or said in the wheel of time, but it's not as firm as that. Do we know for certain that spirits are tied to time like that. I think so, but I'm not sure. Could a spirit split and then recombine? probably not, but do we know?
Reads white board
Woo!
I always thought that Matt had some ancestor memories from Menetheren before he went through the doorway, but he still had big gaps in his head. The Fin then filled the gaps with other memories that may or may not have been from his past lives, or maybe both.
He did. He awakens from a dream sequence early in the third book where he lived the final day of his ancestors from Manetheren. While the Aes Sedai were separating him from the Shadar Logoth dagger, he was basically a reincarnation of this ancestor for a brief moment.
Since the first 2 books he was talking the old tongue without noticing, moraine explain it as the force of the old blood and ewgene weirdly and curiosly was mentioned to feel a resonance with the old tongue, it is later say, that explanation is shit for matrim but it fits ewgene. So yeah 1- matrim had the strongest line of hero (ancestors) blood in the series.(doesn’t explain how he see the death of his ancestors tho)
Or 2- He is a reincarnation of the same “hero” reborn since the breaking (and that’s why he sees the death of all)tha majority gamblers, generals, and joy to dance with girls and make them smile 😂
Or 3- something around the lines of 1 and 2 with a lot of salt add by the foxes.
When he asks Hawkwing if he's a hero of the horn, Hawkwing said no, but as one himself, Hawkwing has prescripts to adhere to. I think Mat may be the Hornsounder reborn...maybe.
Maybe he's not a hero of the horn because the wheel spun him out in the flesh. You can't be called by it if you live, ie Brigette at last battle
Then what about Olver? I think he, same as Perrin, have the old blood connection that's further enhanced due to being Ta'veren. Perrin got the wolves and his ability with the world of dreams (he was a lot stronger there than Egwene, the aes sedai and the wise ones combined). Mat got his battle command prowess that the fox and snakes further enhanced. I really think they were spun that way to help the champion that the wheel also spun, I think Rand's needs were the real catalyst for their powers. Rand needed 2 persons for specific tasks during his fight, one for guarding the dream world and one to command his forces so the wheel gave them to him. They might be heroes tied to the wheel but not necessarily imo.
@@omysadat yes this is my thought as well. Rand is often called the strongest ever Taveren, the pattern spun the Dragons greatest weapons out all at the same time and put them within arms reach. They grew up with him so they would be bound to him by emotion, friendship and need. The pattern is bad ass.
It wasn’t hawkings.
Didn’t Artur Hawkwing explicitly tell Mat he wasn’t bound to the wheel? It’s been a few years since I read the books but I thought that was a thing that was said...
Absolutely true, this guy is wrong about mat being bound to the wheel cos hawkwing literally told him, no he wasn't. But it may be more cryptic than that
@@deborshidebnath4804 I'm pretty sure that he said he wasn't bound to the horn. That doesn't mean he couldn't be bound to the wheel only that he doesn't have to come when the horn is sounded. We don't know that Rand is bound to the horn either. There are a couple of reasons this could be, but the simplest would be that they tend to be alive when the horn is sounded (or at least when it's needed) and so don't need to be bound to it.
Or perhaps Mat just doesn't like to be told what to do so won't bind himself to the horn.
Yes he said it. And he added that kind of line as i can remember; "You did more than enough to be one of us, but i don't know why you are not"
i always thought Mat was one of the horn heroes before Artur's that line.
It wasn’t hawkings iirc (i just go and check it) it was hend the striker, and it’s implied that he should be one of them but it is not. My theory is because its not need to, he is the son of battles tho (implying he is not a “random new soul, “) and doesn’t want to.
Hawkwing told Mat he wasn't bound to the horn. I don't think he said that Mat wasn't bound to the wheel
Matt states in one or more of the later books, I think when he's on his way to rescue Moraine, that the snakes and foxes can see everything once a deal is struck, and that they can't really surprise them as a result. This would easily explain why they have access to memories of death.
Yes. He says they are in his head and may already know they are coming. Whether the can see the span of a humans life all in one go ... which would also explain why they seem to tell the future, or they create a bond to that person that records their memories from that point until it is broken in death. Hard to tell. I like to believe that be cause of their position on a different part of the pattern, they can see how a person's thread is likely to be woven .
It's always my head cannon that Matt get is tied to the horn and each time the horn sounds he's grumpy as all get out over the fact he's stuck playing the hero. But he doesn't realize he tied until after his death when he finds home self in the World of Dreams with Brigita taunting him the whole time.
The theory is based on the assumption that the Foxes do not experience time as linear. There's just not enough information provided to establish that is a truth. A theory based on assumption is going to be flawed and I think there are other more meaningful questions about Mat. It would be interesting to know Mat's experiences when Rand was using the Portal Stones and flickering them through the varied life experiences. The first words out of Mat's mouth is a promise to never betray Rand. You can shrug it off as the might have beens, however, the choices Mat made in worlds of flickerverse had enough impact on Mat that for the first time he made an "adult" decision and makes the promise to Rand. If you accept that Mat's memories are past life had he previously betrayed The Dragon? What was the power of that promise and did it alter the course of Mat's life which lead to being less Loki trickster and more general?
And you know better than Robert Jordan?
Foxes definitely experience time linearly. They literally say how long it has been since someone has come through the door. Thus, time is experienced linearly. Or else they wouldn't care about the gap. Also I think Mat just saw all his possible lives, just like Rand.
If I remember correctly Matt says that they know he's come back because they can see what he's doing
@@richardtasden4417 Why would you even suggest that? I'm simply commenting as someone who has read the series several times on another readers theory.
I think you might be right, after their first visit there Moriane says something to the effect that "their world is folded differently"
He had A memory from ONE ancestor in Manetheren. Even before RJ said it in interviews, this all seemed pretty clear & straightforward in the text of the books. Even the memories of dying has been worked out.
I was going to reread a bit before the series airs but your videos recall things and even point out new things I probably wouldn't have even thought about! Keep doing my work for me so I can be lazy!!
I could have sworn that Mat mention's having memories of both sides of some battles.
The Old Blood part is something, a part that supports this is that when Mat speaks the Old Tongue in the early books, one of the other Two Rivers characters remarks that it felt like they could almost understand what he said, like it was just at the tip of their tongue.
I'll have to recheck though.
I too remember him having memories from both sides of a battle.
@@kathic6402 he did but this was after his visit with the snakes(?) in Rhuidian
we gonna talk about the whiteboard in the back? :)
Look at the comment above! 😁
Alright, Naebs, I concede. I really do like this theory and am willing to accept it as canon. I always thought it was contradictory that the Foxes had given him his memories, yet he was having flashbacks and speaking the Old Tongue long before he went through that doorway. This theory explains this to me and that is all I need. =) Great video!
I started my re-read too early. Might need a re-re-read before the show
Same. I'm on Crossroads of Twilight right now. You?
@@thehoogard Same!! Is Crossroads of Twilight considered part of 'the slog'?
@@jamestea00 I think so, but to be honest. I didn't notice it this time around. I don't think I did last time either. But I remember being a bit frustrated at the time the books came out.
Anyway, next book, the knife of dreams, is considered one of the better ones if i remember correctly. I tend not to care too much about what others think about specific books though :)
@@thehoogard I think I noticed a bit this read through, but not the first time. Obviously it's still great though! And in that case, I'm excited to get to the next book! It's been long enough I've forgotten a lot.
was thinking exact same thing, halfway through path of daggers..
The theory in question is shoddily researched. It dismisses the Aemon connection even though the attributes we know of Aemon (unrivaled courage, known as a shrewd gambler (lucky) and a master military strategist) map perfectly onto Mat. And then there's this passage from Chapter 19, The Dragon Reborn, before he received any memories from the Finn:
“Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem,” he murmured. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked-something.
The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans’ number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.
They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward.” His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.
Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.
He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward.” He was first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle!” The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!”
Mat’s hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. “Los Valdar Cuebiyari,” he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant-“Forward the Heart Guard,” or maybe “The Heart Guard will advance”-but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Tongue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.
Mat may have gotten some stuff from the old blood. The evidence of that was him speaking the old blood before Shadar Logoth and when he was being healed. Although the things he said may have been the influence of the dagger as well. I'm currently listening to the series but I'm all the way at book 12 so I don't remember exactly what he said but he said some anti Aes Sedai stuff which would fit because the people of Shadar Logoth kinda hated Aes Sedai. His memories of battle didn't come from the old blood nor did his ability to speak the old tongue fluently. Birgitte actually says to him in his room at Mistress Anan's Inn the old blood can be responsible for a few words or phrases but that Mat jumps between accents and timelines. As to how Matt remember's dying that's simple. Mat himself says that he believes the memories were from after they visited the Tower. So they do not take your memories up to the point you enter but all memories after you leave. I just listened to this part so im pretty sure that's what he said he says it near the end of book 11. He told Thom that he could not go with him because the Finn would know they were coming. Also i'm pretty he mentions knowing Hawkwing from more than one memory so some of his memories were from the same time period. So the early stuff can be explained by the old blood but there is no evidence that they are responsible for ANY of his battle memories. I also think he is bound to the horn in some way and I did have a theory that he was one of the heroes of the Horn but I believe that was shattered when one of the heroes of the horn said he was not one. But Matt asked him outright and I'm sure one of the precepts would have prevented them telling him if he was. But think about it. If only someone bound to the horn can blow it how poetic would that be? The only two people to blow the horn are Matt and Olver and I dont think its even a theory right now but Olver is definitely Gaidal Cain...
Huh, I never considered that about olver
Olver is certainly ugly enough to be Gaidal Cain, but didnt we see Gaidal in Tel'aran'rhiod in book... like 6? When Elayne and Nyaneve were traveling with Luca's show before Bergitte was cast out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Mogidian? But then she couldnt find him later so she thought hed been spun out. The whole 14 books takes place over 2 ish years so that would make Gaidal a baby wouldnt it? I mean, assuming time in Tel'aran'rhiod is only 'hours seem like minutes an vise versa' dream perception screwy, and not 'years folding into each other' screwy.
Olver isn't Gaidal Cain. Birgitte states he's only a couple years, or few years, older than her when she's about to be reborn after talking with Elayne.
And I'd say Olver is just a tad bit older than a "few" years.
Multiverse theory. The world of the snakes and foxes may be reached from any of the multiple realities reached by portal stone. They could have harvested memories from many worlds or times and a thousand versions of the soul that is Matrim Cauthon. I like the idea that some memories are his from past incarnations and that some are stolen memories of others, thus the few times he recalls both sides of a battle as well as dying
Now that this sparked my thought process, also let me toss out Shahar Logoth as a possible source of some memories as well as a path to other ancestors. Mashadar consumed and entire city, and its touch lingered in Mat for months, possibly leaving behind memories or links...
here again, to reorient with this awesome series. your vids are the new in for those of us that are drangonsworn, asha'man arise
Yes he is bound to the wheel. However both theories are correct. The memories are Mats. However they are made accessible to him by the foxes. Most likely in his past lives he also had to trade an eye. (Half the world to save the world) but then again Mat does remember dying in that place as much as the foxes claiming to love taverin essence the most.
I've subscribed to the idea that Matt has memories of his past lives wherein he was always the number 2 non-shadow general of his day. While Matt is bound to the wheel, his parts in history have always been overshadowed by other greater people. Even in this incarnation as the Grand Marshall of the Armies of the Light, during Tarmon Gaidan, he is in the shadow of the Dragon Reborn. Where this role drove Demandred to the Shadow during the War of Power, Matt thrives in it and prefers to have everyone's attention on someone else.
I have already started my re-read on Audible. I'm halfway through EOTW and I've talked my husband into listening too. I've read through the whole series 3 times before.
Mat asks one of the heroes of the horn if he is bound to the horn/wheel and they say he is not one of them.
I'm inclined to believe they unlocked what was already there, and supplemented with what they had to fill in gaps. If they're dealing in non-linear time, then it's possible that some of those lives haven't occurred yet, or that he could very well be at least some of those people who have come in before.
Mats memories prior to the finns were his ancestors/the old blood, and memories from the finns were from previous lives/incarnations. They cant just be random memories cause they are mostly battles. Of course it could just be that way because Jordan wanted it that way.
There's a point in the book where Mat recognizes he has no memories of any of those dead general's childhoods. Something like "he remembered a hundred deaths, but not one memory of boyhood," which leads him to understanding exactly what the Finns do with memories, and why it's their currency. Mat himself surmises that the deal one makes for answers yields access to your memories for the Finns from the point of the deal onward, but nothing before that. Of course nothing says that's true, the finns might just keep the childhood memories for themselves since the emotional content is so much rawer and richer.
What's clear is that Mat's connection to Manetheren and the Old Tongue is outstanding enough for Moiraine to comment on as early as the first few days out of Emond's Field in EOTW. Mat's bellowing old Manetheren warcries from the word go, the difference is post memory-injection he becomes completely fluent, only with inconsistent accents and dialects, as commented on by Birgitte.
I think the best metaphor to explain Mat is the Quarterstaff and the Ashanderei. Mat was already a hero, so much so that fresh off of an exhausting healing, emaciated from both the treatment and the disease of the ruby dagger, he scrubs two sword-prodigies 2v1 with a quarterstaff. Post Rhuidean, in his first fights the "way of weapon seemed familiar" and this is connected to "those memories in his head" but other fights connect his familiarity and skill with ashanderei with his training in the quarterstaff from his father. "This is a killing blow, Mat." Mat is the Quarterstaff, and the Ashanderei, and he was always meant to be both. To Mat, the memories were forced on him, to the Finns, seeming scoundrels outside the Wheel and Light and Shadow, those Memories were taken from those generals because Mat. So, in a strange way, whether those generals were ever part of his reincarnation path or not (which I'm sure the books confirm is impossible), those memories were always his right, because he is the Son of Battles, and no snake is too quick for the Trickster, and no one outFoxes the Gambler. He is the best character in the whole book, and the origins of his power should be as obfuscated in turning of the Wheel as the Dragon's.
I love your channel.
Mat says/thinks in the books about these memrories and tells US that sometimes he does experience the same war from both side, sometimes even in the same battle
If you pay close attention to Matt's memories of past battles, it is clear some of them take place in the same timeframe from different points of view. Yes, they might be years apart. But not the decades apart they would need to be if they were from the same soul reincarnated.
As far as I can tell, "past lives" aren't the same as the old blood running true. Matt might have a genetic predisposition to battle from the old blood including racial memories. But that isn't the same as memories from prior reincarnations.
Birgitte Silverbow wasn't always reincarnated in one of her blood descendants. She frequently didn't have children, so no blood descendants.
This means there are three possible sources for the memories. Reincarnation memories, blood memories, and the foxes. Matt has some from the blood, but far more from the foxes.
It is not clear how the foxes got the memories. There is an implication that they got them from people who went through the door, but the foxes clearly have other abilities. Including the ability to foretell the future which would mean heavily touching the pattern in other ways. The doorway was not required but may have been used.
All three of the boys from Two Rivers (and a lot of other characters from Two Rivers) likely had a genetic predisposition for skills and memories from Manetheren. The skills with the longbow are particularly telling. Longbow skills normally take a decade of practice to develop. Something farmers don't usually get. England had to pass laws preventing other activities and giving tax breaks to ensure its supply of trained yeomen. They imported bow staves despite the heavy presence of yew trees in England. An ungoverned place couldn't normally produce them. Yet the Two Rivers put together dozens of them.
Mat is bound to the wheel. He is obviously a reincarnation of Odin. Odin the one-eyed, god of death, the gallows, royalty, battle, and victory. He is an archetype.
i always thought of it like this that Mat being healed in the White Tower awakened those memories, but they were jumbled and split but then the Foxes filled the gaps.
He asked for memories, and the Finns probably just gave him some random stuff they had grown tired of.
Na'blis thank you so much for this video. I had mentioned in one of your previous videos that Matt's memory and his place in the wheel was one of my biggest frustrations with Jordan because he left it so unclear. At times the explanations within the book felt like a poorly-written red herring. I like how this fan Theory Bridges the cat that said the foxes gave him his memories as well as them being Matt's own. My long-running theory was that the memories were in fact Matt and that they were memories of his battles from past lived lies. Also the fact that Hawk Wing knew him solidify for me that he was part of the wheel.
I want to hope that the TV series flash has some of this stuff out. However I'm not sure how strong my interest will be until I see these actors on screen. The fact that principal photography just began and the actors such as Perrin does not look anything like the character. I'm not talkin race I'm talking build. I hoped that these announcements of the actors with something they had kept under wraps for months. If that was the case then it would give them time to find a trainer to bulk up in some cases and train for their roles. They look very soft and that worries me
Its odd, if they have access to the lifespan of a person in a nonlinear fashion, wouldn't they know Mat would come to the Tower of Ghenjei later on and have a way to stop him? Then again, maybe they can only access what happens to others outside their realm? But they knew he'd lose an eye....moiraine said that they could only save her as long as certain things happend in the exact way for that specific future to take shape , so as long as those were given the Finn weren't able to stop him? It all being connected somehow, their behavior also being predestined as well? They aren't sure which future will occur though and all the possible paths Rand and Mats lives can take are overwhelming to them, which is why they seem to be in agony after a while?
I don't think Mat was right when he theorized about them having some type of constant connection and watch his every move. I believe that was in book 9 or 10, when he chased after Tuon through the forest, and they encountered Tinkers on their way back to Camp.
Might also be that after the persons death the memories somehow get transfered to the foxes?
One thing about the snakes and foxes is for sure though... I get headaches from thinking about them.
Holzpfanne yeah that was the concern I had about them being nonlinear with experiencing time. Certainly a head scratcher.
@@noahbauer6387 also they mentioned repeatedly, it had been a long time since anybody had visited them...
And then there's the aspect of the tower supposedly being impossible to escape in the dreamworld. Is that because time is so different in the dream that its completely out of whack if you enter from there? That difference might just be significant in figuring them out, I cant come up with anything though...Would have liked Perrin to explore that to be honest and see what happens.
Although Birgitte is enough authority for me to take her word. Since she was concealed even from Hopper.
I was wandering about this earlier, because the very first battle against the trollocks as a party, rand and perrin, both shout "for manetheran" while mat shouts "Carai an Ellisande" and when asked what he said hes basically like "i dont remember" its in book 1 im pretty sure its before mat even gets the ruby dagger
Right, the explanation being the "Old Blood come again". This is reinforced later, described as a river being fractured into a thousand streams but eventually reforming. Egwene also has some of this, but not as much. His manetheran blood is awakened by the Shadar Logoth dagger
Past lives.... in essence from the Wheel and or the Pattern. My sense is that to have past memories we would need to access a static repository or some kind. Which implies a permanent structure within time. This also lends itself to the 'fins theory if they are able to facilitate the access to that structure.
In whole the Narrative, reincarnation is a important part.that in combination with Mat having strong Old Blood within and being Taveren almost makes certain that the memories of passed lives are within him from birth. This is proved in the battle of Falme where the dialogue with the legends is on the same level as being fellow warriors. Jordan says that the foxes filled the gaps with this memories but Jordan didn’t say those memories weren’t already within himself. Maybe the Foxes just did nothing more than unlocking them and the already present memories just flowed into the gaps. This effect can be seen in the narrative cause at some moments those memories seems really random. Another proof of the memories already being present is the fact that Mat was able to communicate with the snakes and foxes while Rand needed a translator.
I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was dancing around the question. He said that the memories are 'not from his ancestors', but from 'memories stolen from other men.'
Well, you don't have to be your own ancestor when you are reborn, so that doesn't really discount the theory. I also wouldn't be surprised if Mat, being reborn again and again, chose to enter the twisted doorway, again and again, in search of answers. A lot of the men in his memories seem to share similarities, though this might just be Mat focusing on the people he can relate to.
He started to have those memories after he blew the horn. The hundred champions must have shared them battles with him.
Ok since the snakes n foxes don’t follow linear time this could suggest they gave Matt the memories for his entire life. Only when they’re relevant are they remembered for the most part. It’s similar to his ta'veren nature which also grows as time progresses!?!?!? Wibily wobaly timy wimy
Also the fact that they might have been refering to him by titles he hadn't yet earned, but would
Thumbs up for Dr Who reference (may it RIP, and hopefully be reborn with a different show runner).
I have read WOT once. I am on my 3rd time with the audible on book 4 atm. I like to listen to them when I walk and go hiking
Saying ‘the old blood is strong with him’ seems to me to be a common way of trying to understand someone being bound to the wheel and being reborn without being a philosopher. It seems to me, only people with knowledge concerning the wheel of time seems to get this.
Great Video. Matt for me is,one of the heroes of the horn reincarnate
As soon as I read that the Heros of The Horn recognized Mat in Book 2, I knew he was a hero bound to The Horn. To me, that is how I came to understand how he got the memories of others in Book 5. I didn't over analyze this, he is ta' veren after all.
Except the heroes when he asks literally state he isn't, and for some reason has never become one.
My only quibble is that Brigita doesn’t seem to recognize Mat as another who is bound to the Wheel. I suspect it’s more of a literal genetic memory. That is why Verin says she couldn’t find anyone of note by the Ferry, too much mixing of blood with the outside world.
So the books seem to hint at Causality not being explicitly linear. As in, the Past is in part effected by the Future. Schrodinger cat, and all that.
Its possible that Mat has multiple "paths" available to him as optional histories, but they aren't realized unless they need to be. So, his memories could be an amalgamation of possible past lives.
Yeah, I know it sounds kinda nonsensical, but that's part of how magic can work, existing outside of logic and reason and causality.
Why is this still being debated? He is of the Old Blood. Past lives lived. In MoL, Mat asks Artur Hawkwing if he was tied to the wheel as a Hero of the Horn. Artur assures him he is not tied to the Horn if he did not want to be, not that he was tied to the Wheel, and it is mentioned in TGH, that maybe Heroes may be added as he looked over Mat and Hurin. When he goes into the ter'angreal the first time, they recognize him as Son of Battles. They gave him the memories of the enemies (of course these leaders would have went into the doorway) so that he had the perspective from both sides.
I thought it had something to do with Matt blowing that horn... though i don't remember if he blew it before the Hawks Army made landfall... seem to remember him blowing it once when they found it in the eye.. thought the horn bound him to the pattern
Re-read (or listen) already started and I dragged a friend in with me.
What if the Snakes and Foxes relationship with time is non-linear in both directions and so when the holes in memory happened there was a manner of echo already filling them from the eventual deal that was made? Then, because Mat was bound to the wheel the types of skills and memories which surfaced were related to the lives of people from the area he had been raised in because of his genetics.
Possible in some of his past lives he went to the snakes and foxes for answers as well. On book 12 of my reread ATM.
matt got his memories from Bela.
There's your answer you argumentative bastards!
Just the fact that he beats Galad and Gawyn in the practice yard is strange. A farm boy with a stick beats two Warder trained princes show there is more to Matt than meets the eye.
Matt was already unknowingly speaking in the old tongue as early as the eye of the world. He shouted it fighting in the Blight on the way to see the Green Man
I think and have thought almost exactly what you said about his memories and his sporadic bursts of the Old tongue
Here is a question for all wheel of time folks. RJ said this story is our past present and future. Do you believe Matrim Cauthon could have continued to be reborn in the timeline throught history and his soul may be living right now?
Mat used the internet to research Arthur Hawkwing.
Isn't it basically confirmed in the books that the foxes create a link to you when you visit them that lets them watch/record the rest of your life from then? That's why Mat only has memories from older people.
Fantastic video!
Wow, I had the exact same theory for a long time. I'm glad to see others have the same idea.
Mat said to the foxes "Fill the holes in my memory", and he had a gap of 2000 years in his memory that needed to be filled with something. The Aelfinn did what they can.
By the way, in the books (in book 13, I think) is actually explained how the Finn got memories of people's deaths: when they make a deal with a human, some sort of bond is created, and they can "save" all the memories they want, starting from that moment.
Mat was scared about this: he theorized the the Finn could know about his plans.
It makes sense to me. Good theory.
Definitely bound to the wheel, yeah I’m still binge watching
Good time to bring up WoT Spoiler’s theory about mat. Think of a penny that’s dirty (Mat with the dagger) through the copper shines the core which contains some past memories protected by current “self”/copper. When they magic the dagger away, they left the copper thinner, like swiss cheese exposing more of the past memories. Then mat asked the Finn/aelfinn to fill up said cheese, and they did. It’s both.
Late to the discussion, but I have my own theory that not only is Mat bound to the Horn, but that Mat is bound to being the Hornsounder. Hawkwing addresses him as such when he first sounds the Horn, but that may simply be because Mat was holding the Horn and Artur could see that he had been the one that sounded it. However, given the cyclical nature of Robert Jordan's world building, I would not be surprised if Mat Or some other incarnation of that soul is always the Hornsounder.
When Mat blows the Horne if Volare the ghosts that rise speak as if there is a consequence of blowing the horne that Mat doesn't know of. That he wasn't bound to the cycle of the battle at Shyol Ghul and now he is is implied to my understanding at least. Rand was supposed to blow the horne not Mat after all.
Obviously an old video, but I'm currently re-reading the novels. Strangely, there doesn't seem to be any theory here that at least some of his past memories may have come from the Shadar Logoth dagger. Which is strange considering Aridhol was not only around in the time of Manetheren, but also closer to the Blight and more likely to see war.
In addition to that, Moiraine suggests that Mordeth attempts to possess bodies of people he could use to escape Shadar Logoth, specifically asking if Mordeth had gifted the boys anything, which he had not, Mat had stolen the dagger.
Presumably, any battle knowledge obtained prior to meeting the snakes or foxes, came from Mordeth's corruption via the dagger, at least partially overwriting parts of Mat's memory. Mat's past memories that are not his own, are more detailed and informative as the series continues, suggesting that he only had Mordeth's knowledge to begin with, and once the memory holes were filled, he knew far more than a single man's experiences.
Maybe it was the dagger from shadar logoth. Shadar Logoth consumed everybody in the city and everybody who went there after. He could have gained some memories from the dagger.
I think the Son of Battles name came from the A&E knowing the future pattern. That was sort of the whole point about them. They knew how Matt was weaved. That he would need certain items in the future, etc. So I think the military general memories were from them. Yes the blood was very strong with him, thus the speaking in old tongue and a little more there. Bound to the wheel? maybe so...
Also from the dagger from Shadar Logoth
Its very convincing. But idk if he's bound to the wheel. Never really thought about this topic too much. I've always wondered what the horn of valere really is. It's not a terangreal so idk. Great video again man.
This isn't on-topic, but it occurred to me that there's a huge logic hole in both the book and the series and that is punishing men who can channel. It's like punishing someone who gets a disease and makes no sense. Keeping Mazrim tain alive and a prisoner after he's been captured and stilled(?) as a warning to other men makes not a bit of sense either.
Porque no dos? Matt's Old Blood memories allowed the Foxes access to the memories tied to Wheel and the Foxes reinserted those into Matt so he had access to them in the present.
OK, so my tuppence 'orth - the Aefinn gather memories in a way that's like surveillance software on a computer. They gain access to what's already there, and as new memories are formed, they get those too, and it lasts right up until you die.
As for how they experience time, it's probably linear, but when we consider the ability of the Aelfinn to prophesy accurately - seemingly at will (or in concordance with their old treaties, maybe), they have some sense at least of the future. Perhaps it's a more controlled and voluntary form of the Foretelling Aes Sedai sometimes exhibit, perhaps not.
He had the memories within him being bound to the Wheel, but the Foxes unlocked his access to them?
Memory is a tricky thing. As far as we can tell in the present, memories are made up of neural pathways being strengthened and reinforced. The more often a certain memory is recalled, the more those pathways are strengthened.
So, what if Mat already having some ancient memories of battles past, on account of being a Hero of the Horn, made it that much easier for his mind to incorporate memories of _even more_ battles into his mind? So they stuffed his head with all kinds of memories, but the memories of battle were the ones that stuck.
It all sounds pretty correct to me. Though the holes in his memory began after Tar Valon. So they were likely an after effect of the dagger. The foxes definitely filled the holes in. They tell him he will wed Tuon, obviously they can read the pattern, and they give him nicknames based on his personality. Mat is more than a mere hero of the horn, our current heroes save the pattern itself!
in 4th book after the bard story mat remembers a battle where he lived both in the group that fought bravely and was allowed to live and then getting betrayed after and soon after he remembers being the king who betrayed them
Just finished the books last night and if it wasn’t for mat I don’t think I would of finished especially around book 8-9, absolute MVP of the series for me
Omg, the theory was great, but the song, greater!!
It’s obvious they are his memories and the foxes allowed him to access them.
Mat is...weird! I'm thinking Jordan never got finished with him. He could have started remembering past lives on his own, then..he fell into shadow. Lost more than memories to that cursed dagger! He lost his affinity for the Light. Without it , the dream world is forbidden to him, he can't be rebound to the Horn. Yes ,he was one of the Heroes of the horn at some time, how else would Hawkwind know him?
At the end he leaves for the west!
Not east toward the sun, west away from the sun, into shadow!
i'm thinking this incarnation made him a bridge , someone who can go into shadow to bring the sawnchan back into the light! Hell, the whole continent is blighted ! Someone has to clean it up! Rand is not available, not to mention he 's wielding the one power now, Perin is busy ruling to the east, who's left? Mat!
The Finn supplied some of his memories , from their own store, but it should never have happened!
The whole shadar Logoth incident was an accident! Something unforeseen by both Powers. Threw a huge spike into their plan, so they started scrambling trying to bring things back on course.
See...I'll let you in on a little secret.
Neither the Creator Nor the dark one are Autonomous! The Wheel rules them both!
Who's who..that depends, but one is bound while the other creates. Always! I'm thinking they trade places sometimes, but both are bound ot the wheel. Which his why the dark one wants to break the wheel. He wants freedom!
If the Finns feed on memories in a non linear fashion you could argue that the memories given could effect Mats thread in a non linear way also. Once his story progressed to a point where he would inevitably enter the doorway and strike his deal, he would start to manifest others memories. Effect proceeds cause maybe.
This is borderline not a theory, more just an accurate statement of what happens. Mat does have the Old Blood, which only initially manifests in talking the old tongue, which Moraine states is a thing that happens, just not usually as strongly. The Shadar Logoth dagger, and the ordeal that comes with it is what starts blurring the lines between his past lives and his current one. He goes to the Finn, who can name him Son of Battles, Trickster, and Gambler because of their wacky 4-dimensional perception of time. So some of his memories are past lives in Manetheran , the rest of his memories are people who visited the doorway in Tear (which had moved around frequently, previously being kept in Mayene). The question might be why were so many of Mat's memories able to be of battles. Likely, there was a period of time where the doorway was better known, and a popular pilgrimage for generals and battle leaders. Mat's soul is not bound to the Wheel any more than perrins is. Rand is bound to the Wheel, and Likely the horn, I would assume that lews therin doesn't answer the call because Rand is living, but I believe Hawkwing recognizes Rand at falme. Everything else that happens to Mat, in fact everything that happens to him at all is because he is an extremely strong Ta'veren, woven by the pattern to play a key role in the time of the last battle. He gets what he does because he, and the pattern, have a need, so the pattern weaves him into as it requires.
Mat would have to be reborn with really scary frequency for all his memories to come from his past lives. He has multiple memories from the same general time periods - notably the Trolloc Wars (not a big deal, they lasted a long time) and Artur Hawkwing's wars (rather more significant). He has so many memories from so many sources, apparently *ALL* from the current version of the Third Age, that even having them all come from men who passed through the twisted doorframe ter'angreal is kind of stretching plausibility. Having his memories come from both his past lives and from other souls whose memories were available to the *finn makes it rather more reasonable.
Mat bound to the Wheel? No. Artur Hawking and Hend the Striker explicitly deny that Mat is one of them when the Horn is sounded at the Last Battle; said that Mat is too independent-minded to be bound to the Wheel.
I disagree, he is a hero of the horn. They said he's too independent as a joke. Mat throughout the series is bound by one oath or another, hardly too independent
Heroes of the horn are also bound by prescripts that prevent telling the living too much, so they may have lied to him.
Okay... People are taking this literally. First, he got his memories from the foxes. These memories are from military past lives of Matt. As for his family's bloodline, he does not get any memories from them. Just like Silverbow, to get reborn, you don't get reborn in the same bloodline.
The longest fan theory was the memories came from people that visited finnland before hand. Its from memories harvested from those who went through the door frame ter'angreal.
Matt is my favourite character
I always figured that in many of mats lives he went to the tower and that the memories of men who had visited were all his own
The idea that Mat is bound to the wheel is very interesting. The fact that Artur Hawkwing seems to recognize him bolsters that, but what about Birgitte? I'm mid way through a re-read and I know they become "bros" but can't remember if she recognizes him from her past as well?
I always thought that the fins gave him the memories of his past lives. But he that is Matt said he remembered fighting hawkwing and fighting against him as different memories so maby not past lives.
It's a cool theory, but I would like to add that as to them recognizing him, it could also just be that they recognize the current horn-blower, and that by blowing it, he's bound. My own interpretation was always that while yes, he might have strong ties to old Manetheren blood, his memories came from him being changed in the near-death experience. :)
It's also possible that not just Ishamael is there as an opponent to Rand through the ages. Maybe the Slayer was always born to be Perrin's enemy, and Demandred to be Mat's, and so the weave gave them tools to deal with their "ancestral" enemy. Feels a little bit unlikely, though :)
There is a scene in the first book when Rand, Perrin, and Matt enter the Blight for the first time with Moirane and Lan. The "old blood" comes out in Matt as he yells "Menetheren! Menetheren! Menetheren!" gallops ahead, and starts shooting menacing trees.
I can only imagine Lan and Moirane looking at each other and thinking WTF?
Love the theory he’s connected to wheel and the horn other than blowing it.
Mat is definitely a hero of the horn. There is no other explanation. The fact that this time he is ta'veren and has encountered the snakes and foxes has manipulated the pattern to allow the memories to manifest. He doesn't just remember. There are many times in the book that he states that he relives those moments of the past in his head. Brigitte has old memories from her previous lives although that is due to different circumstances.
Interesting idea. Though I can't remember where or if it was actually Mat that said it (talking to one hero of hord or other) in the spirit of "Am I one of you," or something to that effect, and after some pregnant pause getting a negaive on that. Of course I might misremember or have totally made it up by jumbling book info. Oh well. ;-)
Have you listened to the Pruage Orchestra Wheel of Time music, yet?
It is beautiful! Some of the strains sound like something you can here in LotR: Two Towers, when Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn enter Rohan; to me anyway :-)