Ramsey is 100% correct. But there’s one other thing-the average purple belt isn’t a competitive athlete. The average high school or college wrestler is working out most days a week on top of wrestling practices most days a week. An athlete will always move differently than a hobbyist.
Yeah that was my first thought as well. Comparing someone who is competitive on a national level vs a hobbyist isn't exactly fair unless that hobbyist is also a competitive athlete in a related field.
@Blazefade909 he is right I have beaten a few bjj black belts in high school as a freestyle wrestler colored belts means nothing the majority of techniques in wrestling, bjj, and judo I have competed in all 3 it all comes down to the skill of the person and wrestlers do have a lot more high competitive experience it's sounds like u need more mat time my friend
This reminds me of that basic idea of the better athlete being the better fighter. In most cases, Wrestlers are the superior athletes, and have the strongest fighting mindsets.
It may also be the case that even a mid-level athlete has the work capacity to become a better fighter, faster than an average person. An untrained athlete would have a better chance against an untrained aggressor, no question.
This video is a perfect summary of why I will always kick myself for not taking part in high school wrestling when I had the chance, more free time, and way less responsibilities. Feels like I’ll always be a decade behind any wrestler in my MMA Gym
I sometimes do the same. But then I remember that when I was in high school, bulimia and other eating disorders were a common way for male wrestlers to cut weight. As much as I'd love to have the technical knowledge, I don't know if it would outweigh the potential damage to my health. Today I fully encourage the teenagers at my martial gym to join their school wrestling teams if they're interested but that's with knowledge that we know so much more about healthy sport science than we did when I was their age
@@shoneast6880 Its just the time on the matt, and on average wrestlrrs competing are way more athletic than bjj competors. We are talking about averages here. Basicly anyone can join bjj club, but how school wrestling works you train lot more fitness, and have grapple time way more than people going to bjj clubs, and they start very young. Also when you are not good enough wrestler you get kicked out basicly that obviously does not happen in bjj. College wrestlers are not average wrestlers either, and thats pretty much they do through college as well so even early 20's they just have massive amount experience comparatively
@@shoneast6880 it’s not just hype. It’s literally a proven fact that wrestling in high school or college is incredibly beneficial 🤦🏾♂️ If weightlifting was the answer to every problem in combat sports, everybody would just focus 100% of the time of that.
I only wrestled for about 2-3 years, but wrestling has been a HUGE cornerstone for me going through highschool an now prepping for the military, hell, it was the first sport I cared enough about to start working out for and I regret not putting even more of myself into it and staying longer I definitely apply myself to my training now because of wrestling and wanting to pay respect to the values it taught me If I ever have a kid, I would want them to go through combat sports, especially wrestling and im so excited to hear and see what they learn and put into practice because of it
I love watching Wrestling vs BJJ matches on RUclips.... I would say 65% of the time the Wrestler dominates. The Wrestler may not have "Finishing moves" but the sheer strength, speed, and athleticism overwhelmes the BJJ guys
Well Jiu Jitseiros dont want to allow them to punch, elbow and headbutt which are things they instinctibely did in the first UFCs. It would be much different if they allowed wrestlers to use more.
Let's be honest here, only when they're doing strickly bjj. In any other sports, including MMA, wrestle would completely wipe the floor with bjj player. It's not even a competition.
@@alantacher7145who taught wrestlers how to punch, elbow and head butt? Watched the evolution of MMA since the 90s, because as far as I saw wrestlers WERE AFRAID OF PUNCH, and they were terrified whenever a punch landed near them, sometimes they gave up the fight just out of fear like Brock Lesnar... All this is MMA, not wrestling, and it came from BJJ... it was BJJ who taught it...When they saw Rickson do this the first time, they were terrified...Until then they thought BJJ didn't punch... Today BJJ has specialized... and it no longer has ground and pound, and strikes.... BUT WRESTLER TB DOESN'T HAVE IT, AND WHEN USING IT IT IS USING A PART OF BJJ THAT HAS BEEN RESTRICTED TO MMA WORLD, so it's not a wrestler anymore it's MMA... In MMA wrestler it only adds control, deciding whether the fight is standing or on the ground, and physical power....the rest is NOT WRESTLER...It's Boxing, it's Bjj (top position is also bjj), it's muay thay... or PROPER MMA elements..m and all these PROPER MMA elements came from BJJ...although today they are no longer in BJJ, so they are no longer BJJ, much less is Wrestler, is MMA... Who was headbutting was a wrestler? hahaha... who gave head was BJJ and Muay Thay guys...this shit came out of MMA precisely to protect WRESTLERS, as well as soccer kicks and the reduction of rounds to 5 minutes... Top position of BJJ and wrestler IS EXTREMELY DIFFERENT... and the top position in MMA is 90% BJJ... Do you confuse things or are you really dishonest, you calculate like this... if the guy trains BJJ, Strike and Wrestler, but he's on top, it's the wrestler's victory... BJJ is when he's on the bottom... if a takedown is Wrestler, BJJ has a takedown too, Judo, Sambo, and most takedowns MMA they are not even wrestler setups, wrestlers perform better in them because of their PHYSICAL conditioning...when they catch someone strong like Nganou, Toquinho, the advantage drops a lot...Dagestanis use a lot of judo/sambo and even things that came from BJJ in takedowns...but everything becomes WRESTLER... Do wrestling without doing BJJ and see if you survive in MMA, It's easier to survive having a strike and bjj without anything wrestler than having a wrestler with nothing bjj... You don't need to be a black belt, because the part of BJJ used in MMA is all old school, blue belt, it's 20% of BJJ that works in MMA, and it's 20% of boxing, wrestling, etc... 90% of submissions in MMA are from BJJ...and even the adjustments of the wrestler to adapt to MMA came from the old BJJ too, which is why the wrestler didn't work and teams like BTT even gave up training the wrestler for a while...they only came back when wrestlers learned BJJ, and then they managed to adapt to MMA, and with all the wrestlers' library and skills, they took this dimension to another level...but it took some BJJ details for that to happen... It's like, if the guy knows BJJ, wrestler and strike, and he's dominating on the ground, he's not a wrestler, he's an MMA Guy...a pure wrestler doesn't dominate anyone on the ground in MMA... it turns out that every wrestler who transitions to MMA learns BJJ and Strike, but not every guy who transitions from BJJnpro MMA learns to wrestle, even because it takes much longer to master Wrestler because it's not just to master the techniques, you have to develop THE PHYSICAL...
@@kallepikku4991wrestler abd bjj they are two halves of the grappler... without BJJ Wrestler they don't do much...no wonder they were discredited until BJJ appeared... When BJJ was complete, the BJJ elite clashed with wrestlers even in the takedowns, like Arona vs Mark Kerr at the ADCC... Today BJJ left the Wrestler to be trained separately, mostly because of the gi and no-gi, which need different styles of wrestler...oh MMA is another style of wrestler too... It doesn't even make sense what you say...Because you will always use examples of guys who do BOTH, and put it on the wrestler's account, and take someone who only does BJJ to put it on the BJJ account, train only wrestlers without BJJ, then you can compare... but it still won't make sense, because they are different dimensions, which before were together and today are trained separately because of the MMA mentality, of the athlete to make his own mix and his own style, because today there are too many dimensions...
Ramsey, that is one of the best and most honest comparisons I've heard to date. I've never studied BJJ, however I wrestled my whole life and am a Judoka, along with other stuff. I've practiced for a little over 50 years and am considered one of the old farts. Today I teach my style of Gong Fu and Taiji Quan, and enjoy the health bennies. I don't always agree with you, however I do acknowledge the hard work you've done to get to where you're at today, congrats and thanks for being so candid. Keep up the good work. Peace and Balance, John
I also feel that wrestling attracts better athletes and they actually train to compete. I mean, is an olympic sport and there are alot of scholarships for wrestling. On the other hand bjj, is mostly a rich kid sport where people pay for the fee and take classes. They dont necessarily train to competitive
I can't believe they give a purple belt to someone who trains only 2x a week in the US, that's like a participation trophy. Here in Brazil that wouldn't take less than 7-10 years. Taking that to the College wrestler vs average purple belt discussion, we have to remember that college wrestlers train every single day, even during school breaks they keep training, so from what I've seen even from high school wrestlers they are crazy athletic and focused on improving, of course they're going to be that much better.
I'm pretty lucky that my coach ( The General - Mike Wilkins) has been wrestling since he could walk, and so has his coach (our head coach) and most of our black belts. Learn to wrestle. Great video, my friend!
My former cohost on my talk show used to think I was foolishly of the opinion that wrestling was not a martial art and that it was a waste of time (which would be silly with how much time I spend on it when tutoring people). One day I had to take him aside and explain that I actually think that Freestyle (or even Folkstyle) Wrestling is one of the most valuable practices you can sink time into and that I was mostly just taking the piss out of him on-air like buddies do because he was a wrestler back in high school.
Something which I hear very often is 'how long have you been training' and the answers comes in years (or months for new guys). For me it's mindboggling because I know the difference between a casual guy training 2-3 days a week and skipping few every now and then due to more important (for him) things and one who likes to go professional and does two trainings per day every workday with some extensive camps once or twice a year. The gap in their abilities is very big and grows every year - which is normal. Strange how most people do not understand this concept even if we talk about other forms of skill - the more time you put in it - the better you become.
A lot of wrestlers also start doing it in high school and because they need experience they train about 9 to 10 months a year 5 days a week. The season ends then is off season( in which we trained technique and focus on getting better physically and skill wise). Freestyle or greeco and also folkstyle. Then pre season starts lol. In 4 months in high school I wrestled 70 matches + 50 in the post season. Is incredible how physically strong and better you get if you train 10 months a year 3 hours a day, hard.
Thank you for stating it loudly for the people in the back that just can't grasp this logic. I'll also add that wrestling training is on average far more intense than bjj with coaches that are very strict and "old school" with their teaching and they push for a higher workload as well.
man its hard regretting not doing wrestling in high school. in college now, and I feel like I just missed out. of course I know I can still find ways to train it, but there is no way I could ever seriously compete with someone who wrestled and grinded from a young age in that kind of environment. oh well.
Mostly depends on the environment. In the rural US most people first start off as wrestlers and progress from there so there is a much higher talent pool for wrestling. If you go to Brazil I'm sure the Jiu Jitsu is much more brutal in the conditioning. Even in the states you can see different places emphasize different styles of fighting. I grew up in and around major east coast cities my whole life and you'll see that boxing and striking conditioning here rival wrestling conditioning and exceed it in some cases. So it depends on which place emphasizes what. Colleges of course are wrestling factories so you'll have much more insane conditioning for wrestling.
When I started training in BJJ I thought it was the antidote to so many challenges in hypothetical self defense, including dealing with wrestlers. Even though my brown belt instructor had no problem tapping larger stronger wrestlers on the mat, I realized pretty quickly that in a real fight I'd probably get smashed by even a high school wrestler. Watching Royce Gracie get destroyed by Matt Hughes was the last straw for me. And Royce had practiced jiu jitsu at least as much as any college wrestler wrestled. I realized then that I better be quick on my feet , hit hard, avoid grappling, and just do my best to stay out of trouble.
But Royce Gracie never competed in his life and never had a proper athlete training like an average wrestler. What Royce Gracie accomplished for a person that never competed in his life was quite amazing.
Não sei nada de lutas, por tanto me desculpe se a pergunta pareceber boba. Mas wrestler aprende a realizar golpes de finalizações como chaves e estrangulamento? Ou se preocupa apenas em colocar as costas do oponente contra o chão e imobilizar?
this left me with a doubt... considering these 3 points for self-defense 1- defend takedowns 2- knowing how to fall without getting hurt if caught 3- when you are underneath the aggressor defend yourself and get up quickly which art would look best for these 3 points if you had to choose just one? Judo, BJJ, Folkstyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, etc...
That doesn't make wrestling better than BJJ, that just makes more experience better than less experience. If you compare people with the same amount of experience, things will look very different.
I've always thought along these lines when comparing the likes of Muay Thai and UFC fighters: the former seem to be ready to fight like almost every week, whereas the latter seem to prefer many months inbetween. Whilst you could argue "health and safety" etc as a benefit, which is a decent argument, I still feel 3-6 months between fights is an amazingly long time. I honestly feel that participating in more competitions more frequently will keep your game strong, whilst encouraging you to elevate. Two matches per year, on average, is probably more detrimental to the fighter and their team. Imagine a writer who wants to write all the time, but is limited to writing just a couple of books per year. Now all focus is upon the couple books they write, rather than their overall performance across the year like they're able to do.
The reason why mma fighters take off more time is because they cut alot more weight. Due to wrestlers cutting so much. When you have to cut 20-30 pounds to fight you’re not gonna be as active. Most Muay Thai fighters cut less than 10 pounds.
Purple belt? Ramsey is very correct on that even black belts dont have enough concentrated hours of practise. 4-5 times a week for 3 years is better than 2 times a week for 6 years
I was at best a mediocre HS wrestler. I didn't have any earlier childhood experience or do any "off season" matches or training. This wrestling experience still prepared and helped me start training much later in life. My first no-gi rolling submission used an inverted cradle which I improvised and turned it into a head'n'arm choke. The guys who were consistently in the state finals were different beasts entirely. Most of them had been training and competing since they were in elementary school, some earlier. They trained off-season and did free-style and Greco Roman wrestling. By the time they became a college wrestler they were already exceptional grapplers. College wrestlers, especially D1 often can challenge BJJ black-belts. Even Rickson Gracie spoke highly of Mark Shultz after rolling with him, and said he was the toughest grappler he ever rolled with. A few years ago (I don't remember the details) A D3 wrestler who dropped out of college after his first year competed in an ADCC tournament and handily one his division with little to no JJ training at all. The Gracie's are a rare, exceptional example of BJJ, being the founders. Many of them have been doing serious training and competitions or fights since they were children. BJJ is slowly catching up, at least in the US. There is now a new generation of BJJ competitors who have been training and competing since they were children, many of them cross-training and competing in wrestling. Some schools in our area are run by BJJ black belts who have complimentary wrestling training and competition experience.
To paraphrase the Eagle Nurmagomedov: "If wrestling was easy, it would be called Jiu Jitsu."😉 I am a former black belt in Judo and have been practicing Kickboxing for years. Comparing the physical training between the two sports Judo was much more taxing. I guess with wrestling the contrast is even greater.
Depends how good the wrestler is. I tapped out plenty of highschool wrestlers with only BJJ as my background. Before I got good at the standup I was getting tossed around on the feet by simple Muay Thai guys though. We hadn't gone over the clinch at that point in my study of BJJ. It was only after training Muay Thai myself that i started tossing people around standing up in no gi.
So many good comments pin pointing it, that i dont have much to say. Its always troubling when i see comments mentioning how terrible wrestling is. We did alot of wrestling in our sambo. Not Degastani or anything, just basic freestyle for improving position. Our coach always believed we needed to fight from the top. We still drilled the odd bottom technique, with each guy tucking away maybe 2 reliable techniques just incase. Sure enough, one day came where we needed them. A German man that was new to the city showed up. He had done well in wresting back innGermany and was looking for something casual tondo and learn a new art. He would out position everyone in the gym. Even the most experienced guys. At the beggining since he didnt know any locks or defense for them, he would get caught and tap, but after he learnt the defense, and a bit of offense, he turned into a scary guy very quickly. He tried showing us a few things, but even understanding what he was trying to do, it took incredible amounts of drilling. The strength, speed, and control needed for some techniques, especially as a heavy weight, would have required insane amounts of dedication. Yes, definatly not hobbiest sort of material. Im certain that if he wanted to, he could have competed in mma. If he did so, he would have had to start training in a different gym most likely, but he turned out to just enjoy it with leisure like most of us. We all know many many wrestlers have done well in mma. However, thinking back, im suprised more freestyle techniques werent used by some that would be great for mma. Maybe most fighters, including in most respect the late and great Kevin Randleman didnt see it worth while. This German guy could always get our backs when he wanted to. Standing, or on the ground. I think one of the most intimidating things he had was his agility. He could cut in and out at 45 degrees incredibly fast. Something that took a very long time to master. We tried doing this, and some even practiced for months and couldnt come close to what he had. An invaluable skill i perosnally think when it comes to obtaining someones back, especially after a feinted shot etc. Why its not seen more in mma is that very reason i guess. You lose time on training that may work compared to a gamble of what may not i suppose. Yes, just the dedication thats put into wrestling should never be underestimated.
John Welbourn of PowerAthleteRadio said that he would rather fight alongside a 150lb wrestler than a 200+ pound football player. Wrestlers have a different tenacity than other sports.
I did karate, Muaythai and wrestling, and I still train all three. I love karate, hence, my username, but wrestling has been invaluable for me as well. The sheer amount of control you need for most of these techniques is insane. It’s very nuanced. You have to make sure you have perfect position, and in a self-defense situation, take down defense, standing up wen on the ground, fighting off your back, all of these things wrestling has I’m sure Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has them too, but from my experience wrestling seems to be very valuable. Also, my friend did karate and BJJ and when on the feet. Our techniques were very similar, but when we went to the ground, I was actually able to pin him and there wasn’t much he could do lol, but then again, we were both beginners, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Ive always thought of bjj like buying the best airbag for your car because you know its going to crash because you wont buy new brakes. Its better for less athletic people to have a chance but its not the optimal use of training if youre still young and youre fighting people relatively your size
How many fought to stay off their back vs using that position to win the fight? As a wrestler it was very weird to actually try and choke a person out the first few months.
As a wrestler I can say the most satisfying experience is when you get into a flow state with a sparring partner. I've never seen BJJ sparring/exercises so I wonder if it has the same potential for that flow state.
The average wrestler trains harder and in more dangerous and aggressive environments than do BJJ practitioners. Particularly when you're talking about BJJ schools vs. training camps. Wrestlers go hard and they're trying to win and place. Not so for the average BJJ practitioner. It's the difference between light sparring all the time (BJJ) and going full out all the time (wrestling). One is not better than the other, but the environments and the competitive atmosphere is extremely different.
Fair point. Although pure wrestlers have some holes in grappling fight too. Bjj has some adventages over wrestling and wrestling has some advantages over bjj. I’ve been training both over the years as im training mma and i would say this 2 sports complete each other in mma grappling fight. Wrestling helped me to keep top position or scramble from uncomfortable positions to end up at top
So when you do A multiple times a day for ~15 years, you put in more work and get better than someone who does B 2-3 times a week for 5-6 years... Why don't we compare people of A and B who did the same amount of time respectively...? Take Mikey Musumeci, Cole Abate, or Ruotolos. All those young athletes who have been doing BJJ since childhood... But I get it, we do it for the clicks
No, you don’t get it: we do it to answer the man’s question. He didn’t ask about BJJ phenoms who have been grappling since childhood. He asked for about college wrestlers vs average BJJ purple belts.
@@RamseyDewey OK fair enough, that second part of the question sets you up for this flawed comparison. A college level wrestler (vs BJJ purple) is so much more developed for all the reasons you mentioned.
You can only compare the average collegiate wrestler to bjj players who started in childhood and are at least on their respective school competition teams. And even then the wrestlers are probably putting in more work. The other thing about how wrestlers move, is that wrestlers lift weights. Lots of weights. If you're able to squat 3x bodyweight and clean 2x bodyweight you're going to have the leg strength to move in and out of positions quickly and put your body wherever you want in space. You'll be able to start and stop on a dime and do direction changes other people can only dream of.
Belts is just a way to portray your knowledge in your martial arts, not how good you are or experience. So it kind of is logical that an average wrestler would be better than an average purple belt. I think most people just confuse belts with "skill level", which it doesn't constitute that. It would mean that if a lower leveled belt beats the higher level belt, that the defeated one must turn in his belt which never happens. I'm doing Japanese Jiu-Jitsu now for like 3 years and am an orange belt, and sometimes i learn some things from yellow belts because they've had way more experience in the past than me when it comes to martial arts. That's just the way things work.
Athlete vs Hobbyist. Most college wrestlers started at young ages as early as 5 and have wrestled all the way up their college time. Most college wrestlers I know have wrestled for upwards of 20 years. The low end time for a college wrestler I’ve known personally started around age 13 and wrestled into the early 20s. These guys wrestled year round until graduation. Wrestling being scholastic also means a deep, deep pool of contestants. Scholastic wrestling selects for athleticism. The point being, when you a hobbyist who started BJJ as an adult, even if your a black belt, goes up against a division level wrestler who has been a top athlete, you are basically going with a “black belt” in wrestling. There’s been plenty of hobbyist black belts in BJJ tapped by blue and purple belt college wrestlers. Wrestling isn’t superior and BJJ isn’t inferior. But the process is quite different and the pool of people much different.
Previously, I asked a question from a position of ignorance. I asked you whether you as the larger, stronger grappler kept other people comfortable enough to keep training. After learning more about your history and your struggles putting on weight -- and I will not insult you by saying "I wish I had that problem", nobody really does -- it's better to ask what other training partners do and say to you in order to give you value out of your training and keep you coming back. This is in the context of training with my wife, and the easiest way to enrage her is to "let" her do something. I would really value your insight.
To be fair the goals are also different. In wrestling I have to do a thing a certain way to get the point. I have to defend a certain way to get the point. If I didn't practice enough I could do something that would get the ref to stop the match becasue I could hurt my opponent. That's first day training wrestling. In BJJ I'm not after points but submission and it doesn't matter how I get them as long as I get that submission. The ref wont stop the match if I only get one finger trying to escape a half nelson in BJJ. Yes people do get away with that kind of stuff in wrestling but I can still get a pin and win with a broken finger.
The average college wrestler is a semi-professional athlete. If he or she is in school on a wrestling scholarship (which is often the case for much of the school's wrestling team), he or she is literally being compensated for training and working out every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The average purple belt is a hobbyist who trains as time allows and who pays for training with money he or she makes at their unrelated day job.
Hey Ramsey can you talk more about Wrestling vs BJJ? And in particular Catch Wrestling vs no gi jiu jitsu? Would you say catch is better for MMA than nogi? ❤️
I also would like to know. I've only seen catch vs bjj under different rules ses with restrictions that mostly impact the catch wrestlers game. I like both disciplines but if I were in mma and especially UFC, I would go for catch. It's more brutal and straight to the point which I think is something you'd want in a real fight.
Well this could be said of any sport. I started competing in taekwondo matches at 10 years old and competed in the pan-european games when I was 16. I compete in MMA now and I got bodied in my most recent fight by a guy with a base in Dutch kickboxing. I’ve been competing WAY longer than him since he wasn’t actively competing in kickboxing before he turned 18, while I was competing at 10 years old and made it to the lower-upper echelon of my sport when he was still in high school. I think it has more to do with style
Wrestlers are trained to avoid dangerous holds. If they can train themselves to continue where the ref would stop a match for a potentially dangerous maneuver, they would be far more effective. Violence is a mindset , inflicting damage is part of violence. Change the mindset, change the outcome.
If I want to become the best MMA fighter thatI can become, should I invest 100% of my time into MMA or should I train BJJ and wrestling seperately, as well? I think training MMA only would be wiser.
I will say, just my own experience, i do see a massive difference between a high school wrestler and a college guy. I think the average wrestler is better because wrestling has a built in filter to kick out the guys who don't make the cut. The guys who are actively wrestling are active athletes with conditioning, technique, and focus where I'm training 2-3 times a week when I'm not working/ doing grad school stuff, little time or incentive to work out outside the gym, i mean of course the athlete is gonna win.
I conditioning. and the multiple concussions help :) for comparison- as a hjgh school wrestler 1 mile jog, weight training. practice 5 x/ week, 2 hours. stretch, condtion, drills, then end 15 mintues "burnout:- thats HIIT now. up that rp 6 times a week as we get close to regionals. then 2x day. in addition, meets and tournaments. thats 3 - 4 months a year for the season. Not counting the off season camps the serious guys would go to. Add in nutrtion (to a point), and the "dont quit" mentality drilled in over and over. You run, puke, get back to running.
As a BJJ competitor …agree. Most matches I’ve won initially in my first year of training was based on being stronger and more athletic. Most BJJ guys don’t compete at all and don’t train as often or as hard as wrestlers. Wrestlers often can compete every weekend during season…BJJ guys that compete once a year are more common than those that compete once a month. Combined with many wrestlers are younger and don’t have kids (average in BJJ is far higher)…wrestlers tend to mess up a lot of BJJ guys. I do find thought the actual pro BJJ athletes tend to fair fine against wrestlers because they train in a similar intensity frequency and COMPETE more
I agree but can you add to your answer? What about like for like in terms of time ? The explosive athleticism of a wrestler gives them the advantage when young but I’m 52 and have seen a lot of wrestlers get injured. So in terms of long term practicality for the average person? Also wrestling preselects people to a large extent. Could it be argued that the average person, especially nowadays can’t even wrestle? How times have changed! In the old days wrestling was so integral that it was a sunnah of the Muslims!
My highschool hosted the Japanese national team while they stayed in America when I was in highschool proudest concussion of my life HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE GUYS EARS???!!!!
All this stuff about how much the culture of a given martial art affects the training regimen and how often you compete in makes me think that a Wrestler who starts training in BJJ would probably get a lot out of it, maybe more than if they started in BJJ and went to wrestling later (might take more time to adjust). Skillset wise i'd want to have both if I can, but yeah how often you actually optimize your time in the day towards training wrestling would definitely have a meaningful impact
Wrestlers who come into BJJ have a short window of readjustment. They keep giving up the back and the guillotine, and they have a habit of thinking the match is over when you're "pinned". If you're doing Gi, they also have a little trouble with takedowns because good grips can foil a lot of their setups. But once they reprogram their skillset to fix those deficiencies, they get good fast.
@@Jamoni1 Yeah that's kinda how I imagined it. But the power of having wrestling's training & control alongside bjj giving you weapons post-pin seems really good in a lot of contexts, so it seems worth it
@vgman94 I 100% agree. I was not saying it in a derogatory way. The Reality Based Self Defense Military Combatives fighting style I have developed for Myself works off the same premise. With both standing and ground fighting.
Ramsey: we where talking about traditional martial arts after our sparring session last night. Yes i know that wrestling is more or less as old as the human race. And that styles as boxing and muay thai goes way back to before modern karate and tkd. But TMA seem to be used as a term for styles you train wearing uniform, katas, set rules of how to do techniques, ect. Anyway. We where discussing flow, and fluid motion. My argument to why the thai fighters are so fluid in motion, was the same as you use here. That they have been training High volume training since childhood. But why is there often more fluid and flowy movement in kung fu guys, compared go people doing karate, Taekwondo, ect
Karate and taekwondo forms are usually performed as of every movement is a strike (they’re not, most of throes movements represent grappling techniques) As far as Chinese martial arts go, it sounds like your talking about taijiquan, bagua zhang, or xinyi forms (where most of the movements are grappling techniques)… or sport wushu where the aesthetic of the movement trumps the meaning.
@@RamseyDewey yeah. I guess. But there just seem to be more fluid movements in more or less every kung fu form i have seen. Both karate and tkd have a stop in motion after every move. This is even more strange if the moves (in karate and taekwondo forms) isnt strikes, but grappling. I dont care about modern wushu. But some stuff from old kung fu is interesting. Have you seen anything from jiang yu shan?
I am pretty sure Ramsey you know that bjj practionaire do competitions too i find this question is a little misleading when you say wrestling is better than BJJ in what context. I mean better than in what exactly? Also i want to add that wrestling is an umbrella and not a martial arts because technically bjj is a way of wrestling too
The rule sets is what makes wrestling so active. The fact that you can't be on your back makes it a totally different ground game. I don't like to say that word with a j in it because that style of fighting don't exist. Its Pankration. Greeks invented all styles of fighting
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed of course the greco would think so Numerically speaking, China came first. And theyre credited with MANY "modern" creations.
@@soleursuelos3616 lmfaooo00 your delusional. China the copy king lmfaooo00 🤣😆😂🤌 The only thing they invented was boiling animals alive. The inbreds think that it makes the meat taste better. That's what these delusional inbred handicaps believe.
I know BJJ is all about submissions, and points. However, Judo and Wrestling have in common win by pinfall. How come BJJ does not have win by pinfall like Judo , and Wrestling?
@@RamseyDewey A simple straight forward answer. I was over thinking it lol. I thought maybe some influential early BJJ practitioners had a martial philosophical argument against the pin techniques of Judo. Lol
@@TheAseer2020 No. The early BJJ practitioners were vale tudo fighters. They fought with no rules, no time limits, no weight classes. Winner by KO or submission.
Well yeah, but the problem is that its very hard to find places where wrestling is taught outside of school. Believe me, I tried. At most, you might get lucky and find a BJJ school that teaches basic stuff in wrestling.
I'll toss in also the distillation of competition. You don't just get to be a Division I wrestler, even when you put in the work, when you take all the freshmen starting a high school career, in 4 years less then 1% of them will be freshmen in college starting a DI careee because there are only so many spots and you gotta be X good to make the cut. Wrestling doesn't really have a hobbyist side to it either, so the comparison just kind falls apart because wrestling is a state sponsored sport in the US, you get to do it mostly for free in school. The closet thing to a DI athlete jiu jitsu has are the teenagers coming out of Dan's gym, Atos, AoJ and such, elite 20 year old black belts who grew up competing. Wrestling has an infrastructure that creates those kinda of athletes year after year, jiu jitsu doesnt and has to wait for one of them to stick with it.
I think an apt comparison might be Judo in Asian coutnries vs Wrestlers in the US... because they're both takedown and pinning martial arts that are practiced from a young age. I would love to see a Korean College Judoka grapple an American wrestler with IBJJF rules. lol
While this may be true, no wrestler has been able to pin me, before I submit them. Their transitions are fast and fluid, but leave too much space between us. Escapes are pretty easy.
At our sports university the sub 21 year old French Heavyweight Greco Roman Wrestling National champion obliterated everyone in Judo submission randori for years. He was undefeated and pinned everyone and hold them imobilie for 30 seconds, almot no match lasted more than one minute versus him. No one beat him for years, no Judo brown or black belts of any weight class included. Too strong, too explosive and too fast on the ground, too good at throwings from the ground, and too good at immobilizing and holding people down. I was physically stronger and better at Judo submissions then him put his ground game speed and explosiveness seemed otherworldly, i had no chance. Luckily for me, the roles were inverted in the Savate classes. Put in the mid 2000 he changed my whole perspective of fighting possibilities of wrestling in fights and combat sports. I forever will thank him for that and also for being humbled in Judo.
Is it really that rare for BJJ practitioners to not weight train and endurance? Who wouldn't want to get their body as strong as possible while still having endurance?
Actually it's not, it's just available for free in the American school system. If we had BJJ for free at public schools while we had to pay $100 a month to learn WRESTLING at the mall things would look very different🤔😐
Ramsey is 100% correct. But there’s one other thing-the average purple belt isn’t a competitive athlete. The average high school or college wrestler is working out most days a week on top of wrestling practices most days a week. An athlete will always move differently than a hobbyist.
Exactly!
Yeah that was my first thought as well. Comparing someone who is competitive on a national level vs a hobbyist isn't exactly fair unless that hobbyist is also a competitive athlete in a related field.
ruclips.net/video/mOdaNztMRQY/видео.htmlsi=PeFh698XhAAXoTAf
Click it cause This is coming from a wrestler👆and your high if you think a average high school wrestler can take on a purple belt 😂😂
@Blazefade909 he is right I have beaten a few bjj black belts in high school as a freestyle wrestler colored belts means nothing the majority of techniques in wrestling, bjj, and judo I have competed in all 3 it all comes down to the skill of the person and wrestlers do have a lot more high competitive experience it's sounds like u need more mat time my friend
This reminds me of that basic idea of the better athlete being the better fighter. In most cases, Wrestlers are the superior athletes, and have the strongest fighting mindsets.
I mean usually when skills are even , the physicals make the biggest difference. Gotta be fit to fight
It may also be the case that even a mid-level athlete has the work capacity to become a better fighter, faster than an average person. An untrained athlete would have a better chance against an untrained aggressor, no question.
A school wrestler is like if you had to kick out the bottom 30 percent of your gym every year.
This video is a perfect summary of why I will always kick myself for not taking part in high school wrestling when I had the chance, more free time, and way less responsibilities. Feels like I’ll always be a decade behind any wrestler in my MMA Gym
I sometimes do the same. But then I remember that when I was in high school, bulimia and other eating disorders were a common way for male wrestlers to cut weight. As much as I'd love to have the technical knowledge, I don't know if it would outweigh the potential damage to my health. Today I fully encourage the teenagers at my martial gym to join their school wrestling teams if they're interested but that's with knowledge that we know so much more about healthy sport science than we did when I was their age
@@simonyu8838 thats though risk in any sport where weight limit is important
Stop believing the wrestler hype. Just lift some heavy compound lifts and you will pass them. They're not these freaky athletes
@@shoneast6880 Its just the time on the matt, and on average wrestlrrs competing are way more athletic than bjj competors. We are talking about averages here. Basicly anyone can join bjj club, but how school wrestling works you train lot more fitness, and have grapple time way more than people going to bjj clubs, and they start very young. Also when you are not good enough wrestler you get kicked out basicly that obviously does not happen in bjj. College wrestlers are not average wrestlers either, and thats pretty much they do through college as well so even early 20's they just have massive amount experience comparatively
@@shoneast6880 it’s not just hype. It’s literally a proven fact that wrestling in high school or college is incredibly beneficial 🤦🏾♂️ If weightlifting was the answer to every problem in combat sports, everybody would just focus 100% of the time of that.
I only wrestled for about 2-3 years, but wrestling has been a HUGE cornerstone for me going through highschool an now prepping for the military, hell, it was the first sport I cared enough about to start working out for and I regret not putting even more of myself into it and staying longer
I definitely apply myself to my training now because of wrestling and wanting to pay respect to the values it taught me
If I ever have a kid, I would want them to go through combat sports, especially wrestling and im so excited to hear and see what they learn and put into practice because of it
Their training is lot more physically demanding too, they don’t just practice their sport they also do very intense exercises during class too
Wrestling is basically sparing all practice.
@@Laugh1ngboy also it preps you for weight cuts and the like
@@ronselporter4739 Man some of the stuff people did to make weight was child abuse.
Wrong both are physically demanding and at some bjj gyms u get wrestling focused days bud so dont assume depends on gym and training partners
My coaches drove us till we puked with the internet and proclamation that we weren't done till we puked.
Very true. Started wrestling when I was five. When I was 22 I joined the army and combatives was nothing. Even the toughest guys were no problem.
I love watching Wrestling vs BJJ matches on RUclips.... I would say 65% of the time the Wrestler dominates. The Wrestler may not have "Finishing moves" but the sheer strength, speed, and athleticism overwhelmes the BJJ guys
The average wrestler has far more mat time at a more intense pace from a younger age
Well Jiu Jitseiros dont want to allow them to punch, elbow and headbutt which are things they instinctibely did in the first UFCs. It would be much different if they allowed wrestlers to use more.
Let's be honest here, only when they're doing strickly bjj.
In any other sports, including MMA, wrestle would completely wipe the floor with bjj player. It's not even a competition.
@@alantacher7145who taught wrestlers how to punch, elbow and head butt?
Watched the evolution of MMA since the 90s, because as far as I saw wrestlers WERE AFRAID OF PUNCH, and they were terrified whenever a punch landed near them, sometimes they gave up the fight just out of fear like Brock Lesnar...
All this is MMA, not wrestling, and it came from BJJ... it was BJJ who taught it...When they saw Rickson do this the first time, they were terrified...Until then they thought BJJ didn't punch...
Today BJJ has specialized... and it no longer has ground and pound, and strikes.... BUT WRESTLER TB DOESN'T HAVE IT, AND WHEN USING IT IT IS USING A PART OF BJJ THAT HAS BEEN RESTRICTED TO MMA WORLD, so it's not a wrestler anymore it's MMA...
In MMA wrestler it only adds control, deciding whether the fight is standing or on the ground, and physical power....the rest is NOT WRESTLER...It's Boxing, it's Bjj (top position is also bjj), it's muay thay... or PROPER MMA elements..m and all these PROPER MMA elements came from BJJ...although today they are no longer in BJJ, so they are no longer BJJ, much less is Wrestler, is MMA...
Who was headbutting was a wrestler? hahaha... who gave head was BJJ and Muay Thay guys...this shit came out of MMA precisely to protect WRESTLERS, as well as soccer kicks and the reduction of rounds to 5 minutes...
Top position of BJJ and wrestler IS EXTREMELY DIFFERENT... and the top position in MMA is 90% BJJ...
Do you confuse things or are you really dishonest, you calculate like this... if the guy trains BJJ, Strike and Wrestler, but he's on top, it's the wrestler's victory... BJJ is when he's on the bottom... if a takedown is Wrestler, BJJ has a takedown too, Judo, Sambo, and most takedowns MMA they are not even wrestler setups, wrestlers perform better in them because of their PHYSICAL conditioning...when they catch someone strong like Nganou, Toquinho, the advantage drops a lot...Dagestanis use a lot of judo/sambo and even things that came from BJJ in takedowns...but everything becomes WRESTLER...
Do wrestling without doing BJJ and see if you survive in MMA, It's easier to survive having a strike and bjj without anything wrestler than having a wrestler with nothing bjj...
You don't need to be a black belt, because the part of BJJ used in MMA is all old school, blue belt, it's 20% of BJJ that works in MMA, and it's 20% of boxing, wrestling, etc...
90% of submissions in MMA are from BJJ...and even the adjustments of the wrestler to adapt to MMA came from the old BJJ too, which is why the wrestler didn't work and teams like BTT even gave up training the wrestler for a while...they only came back when wrestlers learned BJJ, and then they managed to adapt to MMA, and with all the wrestlers' library and skills, they took this dimension to another level...but it took some BJJ details for that to happen...
It's like, if the guy knows BJJ, wrestler and strike, and he's dominating on the ground, he's not a wrestler, he's an MMA Guy...a pure wrestler doesn't dominate anyone on the ground in MMA...
it turns out that every wrestler who transitions to MMA learns BJJ and Strike, but not every guy who transitions from BJJnpro MMA learns to wrestle, even because it takes much longer to master Wrestler because it's not just to master the techniques, you have to develop THE PHYSICAL...
@@kallepikku4991wrestler abd bjj they are two halves of the grappler... without BJJ Wrestler they don't do much...no wonder they were discredited until BJJ appeared...
When BJJ was complete, the BJJ elite clashed with wrestlers even in the takedowns, like Arona vs Mark Kerr at the ADCC...
Today BJJ left the Wrestler to be trained separately, mostly because of the gi and no-gi, which need different styles of wrestler...oh MMA is another style of wrestler too...
It doesn't even make sense what you say...Because you will always use examples of guys who do BOTH, and put it on the wrestler's account, and take someone who only does BJJ to put it on the BJJ account, train only wrestlers without BJJ, then you can compare... but it still won't make sense, because they are different dimensions, which before were together and today are trained separately because of the MMA mentality, of the athlete to make his own mix and his own style, because today there are too many dimensions...
BJJ & Wreslting should be done together like Muay Thai & Boxing
Ramsey, that is one of the best and most honest comparisons I've heard to date. I've never studied BJJ, however I wrestled my whole life and am a Judoka, along with other stuff. I've practiced for a little over 50 years and am considered one of the old farts. Today I teach my style of Gong Fu and Taiji Quan, and enjoy the health bennies. I don't always agree with you, however I do acknowledge the hard work you've done to get to where you're at today, congrats and thanks for being so candid. Keep up the good work. Peace and Balance, John
I also feel that wrestling attracts better athletes and they actually train to compete. I mean, is an olympic sport and there are alot of scholarships for wrestling. On the other hand bjj, is mostly a rich kid sport where people pay for the fee and take classes. They dont necessarily train to competitive
I can't believe they give a purple belt to someone who trains only 2x a week in the US, that's like a participation trophy. Here in Brazil that wouldn't take less than 7-10 years. Taking that to the College wrestler vs average purple belt discussion, we have to remember that college wrestlers train every single day, even during school breaks they keep training, so from what I've seen even from high school wrestlers they are crazy athletic and focused on improving, of course they're going to be that much better.
I'm pretty lucky that my coach ( The General - Mike Wilkins) has been wrestling since he could walk, and so has his coach (our head coach) and most of our black belts.
Learn to wrestle.
Great video, my friend!
My former cohost on my talk show used to think I was foolishly of the opinion that wrestling was not a martial art and that it was a waste of time (which would be silly with how much time I spend on it when tutoring people). One day I had to take him aside and explain that I actually think that Freestyle (or even Folkstyle) Wrestling is one of the most valuable practices you can sink time into and that I was mostly just taking the piss out of him on-air like buddies do because he was a wrestler back in high school.
Something which I hear very often is 'how long have you been training' and the answers comes in years (or months for new guys). For me it's mindboggling because I know the difference between a casual guy training 2-3 days a week and skipping few every now and then due to more important (for him) things and one who likes to go professional and does two trainings per day every workday with some extensive camps once or twice a year. The gap in their abilities is very big and grows every year - which is normal. Strange how most people do not understand this concept even if we talk about other forms of skill - the more time you put in it - the better you become.
Exactly!
A lot of wrestlers also start doing it in high school and because they need experience they train about 9 to 10 months a year 5 days a week. The season ends then is off season( in which we trained technique and focus on getting better physically and skill wise). Freestyle or greeco and also folkstyle. Then pre season starts lol. In 4 months in high school I wrestled 70 matches + 50 in the post season. Is incredible how physically strong and better you get if you train 10 months a year 3 hours a day, hard.
Thank you for stating it loudly for the people in the back that just can't grasp this logic. I'll also add that wrestling training is on average far more intense than bjj with coaches that are very strict and "old school" with their teaching and they push for a higher workload as well.
man its hard regretting not doing wrestling in high school. in college now, and I feel like I just missed out. of course I know I can still find ways to train it, but there is no way I could ever seriously compete with someone who wrestled and grinded from a young age in that kind of environment. oh well.
My Sensei told me once that unless you are a wrestler, treat a wrestler like a knife and just run lol If you see cauliflower ears buy him a beer.
Gotta love how great he is at breaking things down simply
Mostly depends on the environment. In the rural US most people first start off as wrestlers and progress from there so there is a much higher talent pool for wrestling. If you go to Brazil I'm sure the Jiu Jitsu is much more brutal in the conditioning.
Even in the states you can see different places emphasize different styles of fighting. I grew up in and around major east coast cities my whole life and you'll see that boxing and striking conditioning here rival wrestling conditioning and exceed it in some cases. So it depends on which place emphasizes what.
Colleges of course are wrestling factories so you'll have much more insane conditioning for wrestling.
im so grateful for my gym bc all the coaches started out as wrestlers. helps out so much in competitions
Masvidal said that he's seen Bo Nickal submit multiple black belts just 6 momths after learning BJJ for the first time.
Have you seen Bo Nickal against Gordon Ryan?
When I started training in BJJ I thought it was the antidote to so many challenges in hypothetical self defense, including dealing with wrestlers. Even though my brown belt instructor had no problem tapping larger stronger wrestlers on the mat, I realized pretty quickly that in a real fight I'd probably get smashed by even a high school wrestler. Watching Royce Gracie get destroyed by Matt Hughes was the last straw for me. And Royce had practiced jiu jitsu at least as much as any college wrestler wrestled. I realized then that I better be quick on my feet , hit hard, avoid grappling, and just do my best to stay out of trouble.
But Royce Gracie never competed in his life and never had a proper athlete training like an average wrestler. What Royce Gracie accomplished for a person that never competed in his life was quite amazing.
Não sei nada de lutas, por tanto me desculpe se a pergunta pareceber boba. Mas wrestler aprende a realizar golpes de finalizações como chaves e estrangulamento? Ou se preocupa apenas em colocar as costas do oponente contra o chão e imobilizar?
@@shinjibaka6702 , Wrestlers não sabem finalizar e nem estrangular, é proibido na regra deles.
@@aluisiofsjrroyce competed and trained since childhood
@@aluisiofsjrcatch wrestling sim vide sakuraba
this left me with a doubt... considering these 3 points for self-defense
1- defend takedowns
2- knowing how to fall without getting hurt if caught
3- when you are underneath the aggressor defend yourself and get up quickly
which art would look best for these 3 points if you had to choose just one? Judo, BJJ, Folkstyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, etc...
I would try with a Judo, defenetly
That doesn't make wrestling better than BJJ, that just makes more experience better than less experience. If you compare people with the same amount of experience, things will look very different.
Royce Gracie vs Dan Severn comes to mind
I've always thought along these lines when comparing the likes of Muay Thai and UFC fighters: the former seem to be ready to fight like almost every week, whereas the latter seem to prefer many months inbetween. Whilst you could argue "health and safety" etc as a benefit, which is a decent argument, I still feel 3-6 months between fights is an amazingly long time.
I honestly feel that participating in more competitions more frequently will keep your game strong, whilst encouraging you to elevate. Two matches per year, on average, is probably more detrimental to the fighter and their team.
Imagine a writer who wants to write all the time, but is limited to writing just a couple of books per year. Now all focus is upon the couple books they write, rather than their overall performance across the year like they're able to do.
The reason why mma fighters take off more time is because they cut alot more weight. Due to wrestlers cutting so much. When you have to cut 20-30 pounds to fight you’re not gonna be as active. Most Muay Thai fighters cut less than 10 pounds.
@rico14 that what i love about muay thai the fighters actually fight at their weight class making the fights far more exciting
Purple belt? Ramsey is very correct on that even black belts dont have enough concentrated hours of practise. 4-5 times a week for 3 years is better than 2 times a week for 6 years
I was at best a mediocre HS wrestler. I didn't have any earlier childhood experience or do any "off season" matches or training. This wrestling experience still prepared and helped me start training much later in life. My first no-gi rolling submission used an inverted cradle which I improvised and turned it into a head'n'arm choke.
The guys who were consistently in the state finals were different beasts entirely. Most of them had been training and competing since they were in elementary school, some earlier.
They trained off-season and did free-style and Greco Roman wrestling.
By the time they became a college wrestler they were already exceptional grapplers. College wrestlers, especially D1 often can challenge BJJ black-belts. Even Rickson Gracie spoke highly of Mark Shultz after rolling with him, and said he was the toughest grappler he ever rolled with. A few years ago (I don't remember the details) A D3 wrestler who dropped out of college after his first year competed in an ADCC tournament and handily one his division with little to no JJ training at all.
The Gracie's are a rare, exceptional example of BJJ, being the founders. Many of them have been doing serious training and competitions or fights since they were children.
BJJ is slowly catching up, at least in the US. There is now a new generation of BJJ competitors who have been training and competing since they were children, many of them cross-training and competing in wrestling. Some schools in our area are run by BJJ black belts who have complimentary wrestling training and competition experience.
Let's be honest here, without that wrestling training (and roids) these bjj black belts would be still weak AF.
Have you considered catch as catch can?
Wrestlers focus more on dominating and bjj more on finishing.
You have a lot of Great Wrestling Coaches but they just don't get the ink. Wrestling at high level intensity is going to get you ready.
To paraphrase the Eagle Nurmagomedov: "If wrestling was easy, it would be called Jiu Jitsu."😉 I am a former black belt in Judo and have been practicing Kickboxing for years. Comparing the physical training between the two sports Judo was much more taxing. I guess with wrestling the contrast is even greater.
Depends how good the wrestler is. I tapped out plenty of highschool wrestlers with only BJJ as my background. Before I got good at the standup I was getting tossed around on the feet by simple Muay Thai guys though. We hadn't gone over the clinch at that point in my study of BJJ. It was only after training Muay Thai myself that i started tossing people around standing up in no gi.
Makes alotta of sense. Explains how I got okay at grappling with minimal formal training. I like rastlin 😆
Once you've wrestled, everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
So many good comments pin pointing it, that i dont have much to say. Its always troubling when i see comments mentioning how terrible wrestling is. We did alot of wrestling in our sambo. Not Degastani or anything, just basic freestyle for improving position. Our coach always believed we needed to fight from the top. We still drilled the odd bottom technique, with each guy tucking away maybe 2 reliable techniques just incase. Sure enough, one day came where we needed them. A German man that was new to the city showed up. He had done well in wresting back innGermany and was looking for something casual tondo and learn a new art. He would out position everyone in the gym. Even the most experienced guys. At the beggining since he didnt know any locks or defense for them, he would get caught and tap, but after he learnt the defense, and a bit of offense, he turned into a scary guy very quickly. He tried showing us a few things, but even understanding what he was trying to do, it took incredible amounts of drilling. The strength, speed, and control needed for some techniques, especially as a heavy weight, would have required insane amounts of dedication. Yes, definatly not hobbiest sort of material. Im certain that if he wanted to, he could have competed in mma. If he did so, he would have had to start training in a different gym most likely, but he turned out to just enjoy it with leisure like most of us. We all know many many wrestlers have done well in mma. However, thinking back, im suprised more freestyle techniques werent used by some that would be great for mma. Maybe most fighters, including in most respect the late and great Kevin Randleman didnt see it worth while. This German guy could always get our backs when he wanted to. Standing, or on the ground. I think one of the most intimidating things he had was his agility. He could cut in and out at 45 degrees incredibly fast. Something that took a very long time to master. We tried doing this, and some even practiced for months and couldnt come close to what he had. An invaluable skill i perosnally think when it comes to obtaining someones back, especially after a feinted shot etc. Why its not seen more in mma is that very reason i guess. You lose time on training that may work compared to a gamble of what may not i suppose. Yes, just the dedication thats put into wrestling should never be underestimated.
man's voice is so deep they could play a narrator role
Good interesing answer
John Welbourn of PowerAthleteRadio said that he would rather fight alongside a 150lb wrestler than a 200+ pound football player. Wrestlers have a different tenacity than other sports.
Most BJJ guys would be bench warmers at high level wrestling events.
Wrestlers are in incredible condition. Insurance, strength, and stamina. Physical conditioning makes a huge difference.
I did karate, Muaythai and wrestling, and I still train all three.
I love karate, hence, my username, but wrestling has been invaluable for me as well.
The sheer amount of control you need for most of these techniques is insane. It’s very nuanced. You have to make sure you have perfect position, and in a self-defense situation, take down defense, standing up wen on the ground, fighting off your back, all of these things wrestling has
I’m sure Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has them too, but from my experience wrestling seems to be very valuable. Also, my friend did karate and BJJ and when on the feet. Our techniques were very similar, but when we went to the ground, I was actually able to pin him and there wasn’t much he could do lol, but then again, we were both beginners, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Ive always thought of bjj like buying the best airbag for your car because you know its going to crash because you wont buy new brakes. Its better for less athletic people to have a chance but its not the optimal use of training if youre still young and youre fighting people relatively your size
CACC is my favorite style. Gives the most fun to me
Saw many wrestlers getting submitted in my gym
Khabib.
How many fought to stay off their back vs using that position to win the fight? As a wrestler it was very weird to actually try and choke a person out the first few months.
Anybody that has Ramsey in their name doesn't miss
As a wrestler I can say the most satisfying experience is when you get into a flow state with a sparring partner. I've never seen BJJ sparring/exercises so I wonder if it has the same potential for that flow state.
Jiujitsu most certainly DOES have a flow state.
The average wrestler trains harder and in more dangerous and aggressive environments than do BJJ practitioners. Particularly when you're talking about BJJ schools vs. training camps. Wrestlers go hard and they're trying to win and place. Not so for the average BJJ practitioner. It's the difference between light sparring all the time (BJJ) and going full out all the time (wrestling). One is not better than the other, but the environments and the competitive atmosphere is extremely different.
Fair point. Although pure wrestlers have some holes in grappling fight too. Bjj has some adventages over wrestling and wrestling has some advantages over bjj. I’ve been training both over the years as im training mma and i would say this 2 sports complete each other in mma grappling fight. Wrestling helped me to keep top position or scramble from uncomfortable positions to end up at top
Don't forget freestyle and greco seasons (which most college wrestlers do). They probably learn a bit of BJJ just for fun too.
100% agree, they are much more experienced and athletic
So when you do A multiple times a day for ~15 years, you put in more work and get better than someone who does B 2-3 times a week for 5-6 years...
Why don't we compare people of A and B who did the same amount of time respectively...?
Take Mikey Musumeci, Cole Abate, or Ruotolos. All those young athletes who have been doing BJJ since childhood...
But I get it, we do it for the clicks
No, you don’t get it: we do it to answer the man’s question. He didn’t ask about BJJ phenoms who have been grappling since childhood. He asked for about college wrestlers vs average BJJ purple belts.
@@RamseyDewey OK fair enough, that second part of the question sets you up for this flawed comparison. A college level wrestler (vs BJJ purple) is so much more developed for all the reasons you mentioned.
Hey coach, what in your opinion makes a style effective/applicable to self defence/ non competition fighting ?
If your style includes a weapon and a good lawyer.
@@RamseyDewey Gun-fu followed by Run-fu. Gets em every time...
Hell yeah
You can only compare the average collegiate wrestler to bjj players who started in childhood and are at least on their respective school competition teams. And even then the wrestlers are probably putting in more work. The other thing about how wrestlers move, is that wrestlers lift weights. Lots of weights. If you're able to squat 3x bodyweight and clean 2x bodyweight you're going to have the leg strength to move in and out of positions quickly and put your body wherever you want in space. You'll be able to start and stop on a dime and do direction changes other people can only dream of.
You can compare and contrast literally anything. As a species we do it constantly in order to make any decision at all.
Belts is just a way to portray your knowledge in your martial arts, not how good you are or experience.
So it kind of is logical that an average wrestler would be better than an average purple belt.
I think most people just confuse belts with "skill level", which it doesn't constitute that.
It would mean that if a lower leveled belt beats the higher level belt, that the defeated one must turn in his belt which never happens.
I'm doing Japanese Jiu-Jitsu now for like 3 years and am an orange belt, and sometimes i learn some things from yellow belts because they've had way more experience in the past than me when it comes to martial arts. That's just the way things work.
A purple belt can also be a wrestler whos been 5-10 years in plus 3-4 years of BJJ
Athlete vs Hobbyist.
Most college wrestlers started at young ages as early as 5 and have wrestled all the way up their college time. Most college wrestlers I know have wrestled for upwards of 20 years.
The low end time for a college wrestler I’ve known personally started around age 13 and wrestled into the early 20s.
These guys wrestled year round until graduation.
Wrestling being scholastic also means a deep, deep pool of contestants. Scholastic wrestling selects for athleticism.
The point being, when you a hobbyist who started BJJ as an adult, even if your a black belt, goes up against a division level wrestler who has been a top athlete, you are basically going with a “black belt” in wrestling.
There’s been plenty of hobbyist black belts in BJJ tapped by blue and purple belt college wrestlers.
Wrestling isn’t superior and BJJ isn’t inferior. But the process is quite different and the pool of people much different.
Coach, maybe its the lighting but it looks like you put some foundation on! 😂🙏🏼
Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful.
Previously, I asked a question from a position of ignorance. I asked you whether you as the larger, stronger grappler kept other people comfortable enough to keep training. After learning more about your history and your struggles putting on weight -- and I will not insult you by saying "I wish I had that problem", nobody really does -- it's better to ask what other training partners do and say to you in order to give you value out of your training and keep you coming back. This is in the context of training with my wife, and the easiest way to enrage her is to "let" her do something. I would really value your insight.
To be fair the goals are also different. In wrestling I have to do a thing a certain way to get the point. I have to defend a certain way to get the point. If I didn't practice enough I could do something that would get the ref to stop the match becasue I could hurt my opponent. That's first day training wrestling. In BJJ I'm not after points but submission and it doesn't matter how I get them as long as I get that submission. The ref wont stop the match if I only get one finger trying to escape a half nelson in BJJ. Yes people do get away with that kind of stuff in wrestling but I can still get a pin and win with a broken finger.
The average college wrestler is a semi-professional athlete. If he or she is in school on a wrestling scholarship (which is often the case for much of the school's wrestling team), he or she is literally being compensated for training and working out every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The average purple belt is a hobbyist who trains as time allows and who pays for training with money he or she makes at their unrelated day job.
Hey Ramsey can you talk more about Wrestling vs BJJ? And in particular Catch Wrestling vs no gi jiu jitsu? Would you say catch is better for MMA than nogi? ❤️
I also would like to know. I've only seen catch vs bjj under different rules ses with restrictions that mostly impact the catch wrestlers game. I like both disciplines but if I were in mma and especially UFC, I would go for catch. It's more brutal and straight to the point which I think is something you'd want in a real fight.
@@haddenindustries2922 Agree!
It's that wonderful athletic pipeline
Well this could be said of any sport. I started competing in taekwondo matches at 10 years old and competed in the pan-european games when I was 16. I compete in MMA now and I got bodied in my most recent fight by a guy with a base in Dutch kickboxing. I’ve been competing WAY longer than him since he wasn’t actively competing in kickboxing before he turned 18, while I was competing at 10 years old and made it to the lower-upper echelon of my sport when he was still in high school. I think it has more to do with style
Nice breakdown coach but one question, why are you glowing like a torch?
Are you watching this on an old device that can’t display HDR video or something?
Wrestlers are trained to avoid dangerous holds. If they can train themselves to continue where the ref would stop a match for a potentially dangerous maneuver, they would be far more effective.
Violence is a mindset , inflicting damage is part of violence. Change the mindset, change the outcome.
If I want to become the best MMA fighter thatI can become, should I invest 100% of my time into MMA or should I train BJJ and wrestling seperately, as well? I think training MMA only would be wiser.
mma is not a limited martial art though
I will say, just my own experience, i do see a massive difference between a high school wrestler and a college guy. I think the average wrestler is better because wrestling has a built in filter to kick out the guys who don't make the cut. The guys who are actively wrestling are active athletes with conditioning, technique, and focus where I'm training 2-3 times a week when I'm not working/ doing grad school stuff, little time or incentive to work out outside the gym, i mean of course the athlete is gonna win.
I conditioning. and the multiple concussions help :)
for comparison- as a hjgh school wrestler 1 mile jog, weight training.
practice 5 x/ week, 2 hours. stretch, condtion, drills, then end 15 mintues "burnout:- thats HIIT now. up that rp 6 times a week as we get close to regionals. then 2x day.
in addition, meets and tournaments. thats 3 - 4 months a year for the season. Not counting the off season camps the serious guys would go to.
Add in nutrtion (to a point), and the "dont quit" mentality drilled in over and over. You run, puke, get back to running.
As a BJJ competitor …agree. Most matches I’ve won initially in my first year of training was based on being stronger and more athletic. Most BJJ guys don’t compete at all and don’t train as often or as hard as wrestlers. Wrestlers often can compete every weekend during season…BJJ guys that compete once a year are more common than those that compete once a month. Combined with many wrestlers are younger and don’t have kids (average in BJJ is far higher)…wrestlers tend to mess up a lot of BJJ guys. I do find thought the actual pro BJJ athletes tend to fair fine against wrestlers because they train in a similar intensity frequency and COMPETE more
I agree but can you add to your answer? What about like for like in terms of time ? The explosive athleticism of a wrestler gives them the advantage when young but I’m 52 and have seen a lot of wrestlers get injured. So in terms of long term practicality for the average person? Also wrestling preselects people to a large extent. Could it be argued that the average person, especially nowadays can’t even wrestle? How times have changed! In the old days wrestling was so integral that it was a sunnah of the Muslims!
My highschool hosted the Japanese national team while they stayed in America when I was in highschool proudest concussion of my life HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE GUYS EARS???!!!!
There is a sparring footage of a wrestler and a purple belt in the Teach me grappling channel btw
There are thousands of such examples across the internet, including on my channel.
All this stuff about how much the culture of a given martial art affects the training regimen and how often you compete in makes me think that a Wrestler who starts training in BJJ would probably get a lot out of it, maybe more than if they started in BJJ and went to wrestling later (might take more time to adjust).
Skillset wise i'd want to have both if I can, but yeah how often you actually optimize your time in the day towards training wrestling would definitely have a meaningful impact
seems to be the meta with american NoGi, after college sadly there are not much places for wrestlers to be
Wrestlers who come into BJJ have a short window of readjustment. They keep giving up the back and the guillotine, and they have a habit of thinking the match is over when you're "pinned".
If you're doing Gi, they also have a little trouble with takedowns because good grips can foil a lot of their setups.
But once they reprogram their skillset to fix those deficiencies, they get good fast.
@@Jamoni1 Yeah that's kinda how I imagined it. But the power of having wrestling's training & control alongside bjj giving you weapons post-pin seems really good in a lot of contexts, so it seems worth it
Nah. It is because they have less moves and so practice them in higher repetition to perfect them subsequently.
That’s…that’s actually a really good thing. A smaller, more refined moveset often beats a larger, but less refined one.
@vgman94 I 100% agree.
I was not saying it in a derogatory way.
The Reality Based Self Defense Military Combatives fighting style I have developed for Myself works off the same premise.
With both standing and ground fighting.
900th Like
Ramsey: we where talking about traditional martial arts after our sparring session last night.
Yes i know that wrestling is more or less as old as the human race. And that styles as boxing and muay thai goes way back to before modern karate and tkd. But TMA seem to be used as a term for styles you train wearing uniform, katas, set rules of how to do techniques, ect.
Anyway. We where discussing flow, and fluid motion. My argument to why the thai fighters are so fluid in motion, was the same as you use here. That they have been training High volume training since childhood.
But why is there often more fluid and flowy movement in kung fu guys, compared go people doing karate, Taekwondo, ect
Karate and taekwondo forms are usually performed as of every movement is a strike (they’re not, most of throes movements represent grappling techniques) As far as Chinese martial arts go, it sounds like your talking about taijiquan, bagua zhang, or xinyi forms (where most of the movements are grappling techniques)… or sport wushu where the aesthetic of the movement trumps the meaning.
@@RamseyDewey yeah. I guess. But there just seem to be more fluid movements in more or less every kung fu form i have seen. Both karate and tkd have a stop in motion after every move. This is even more strange if the moves (in karate and taekwondo forms) isnt strikes, but grappling.
I dont care about modern wushu. But some stuff from old kung fu is interesting.
Have you seen anything from jiang yu shan?
I’m not familiar with that mountain.
@@RamseyDewey he is a martial artist living and teaching kung fu in Taiwan
I am pretty sure Ramsey you know that bjj practionaire do competitions too i find this question is a little misleading when you say wrestling is better than BJJ in what context. I mean better than in what exactly? Also i want to add that wrestling is an umbrella and not a martial arts because technically bjj is a way of wrestling too
If you watch as much as the first 15 seconds of the video, you’ll get the context.
The rule sets is what makes wrestling so active. The fact that you can't be on your back makes it a totally different ground game.
I don't like to say that word with a j in it because that style of fighting don't exist. Its Pankration.
Greeks invented all styles of fighting
So Jujutsu, Sambo, Kushti, Muay Thai etc. don't exist?
Humans as a whole have always been fighting. No 1 culture invented fighting.
You misspelled China
@@soleursuelos3616 no such thing that is a Bolshevik creation .. That place is called Mongolia They learned from the Greeks as the whole world did
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed of course the greco would think so
Numerically speaking, China came first. And theyre credited with MANY "modern" creations.
@@soleursuelos3616 lmfaooo00 your delusional. China the copy king lmfaooo00 🤣😆😂🤌 The only thing they invented was boiling animals alive. The inbreds think that it makes the meat taste better. That's what these delusional inbred handicaps believe.
Once BJJ becomes a popular college sport you'll see that gap begin to close
I know BJJ is all about submissions, and points. However, Judo and Wrestling have in common win by pinfall. How come BJJ does not have win by pinfall like Judo , and Wrestling?
Because that’s how they decided the sport was going to be.
@@RamseyDewey A simple straight forward answer. I was over thinking it lol. I thought maybe some influential early BJJ practitioners had a martial philosophical argument against the pin techniques of Judo. Lol
@@TheAseer2020 No. The early BJJ practitioners were vale tudo fighters. They fought with no rules, no time limits, no weight classes. Winner by KO or submission.
Coach what do you think about the Buakaw vs Pacquiao exhibition ?
I just heard about it. I assume it’s going to be boxing?
@@RamseyDewey Yeah seems like it. It's scheduled for 2024.
@@RamseyDewey Buakaw is quite a step up from dk yoo 😂😂
Well yeah, but the problem is that its very hard to find places where wrestling is taught outside of school. Believe me, I tried. At most, you might get lucky and find a BJJ school that teaches basic stuff in wrestling.
I'll toss in also the distillation of competition. You don't just get to be a Division I wrestler, even when you put in the work, when you take all the freshmen starting a high school career, in 4 years less then 1% of them will be freshmen in college starting a DI careee because there are only so many spots and you gotta be X good to make the cut.
Wrestling doesn't really have a hobbyist side to it either, so the comparison just kind falls apart because wrestling is a state sponsored sport in the US, you get to do it mostly for free in school.
The closet thing to a DI athlete jiu jitsu has are the teenagers coming out of Dan's gym, Atos, AoJ and such, elite 20 year old black belts who grew up competing. Wrestling has an infrastructure that creates those kinda of athletes year after year, jiu jitsu doesnt and has to wait for one of them to stick with it.
W
Also the mentality or the philosophy of wrestling is different than other martial arts. All throttle, no brakes. Wrestlers are fuckin animals.
i generally consider jj to be wrestling with finishes...they compliment each other...
I think an apt comparison might be Judo in Asian coutnries vs Wrestlers in the US... because they're both takedown and pinning martial arts that are practiced from a young age. I would love to see a Korean College Judoka grapple an American wrestler with IBJJF rules. lol
While this may be true, no wrestler has been able to pin me, before I submit them. Their transitions are fast and fluid, but leave too much space between us. Escapes are pretty easy.
The more I hear of wrestling the more I realise its importance in becoming a more complete athelete/ fighter. Look at Khabib or Chimaev for instance.
At our sports university the sub 21 year old French Heavyweight Greco Roman Wrestling National champion obliterated everyone in Judo submission randori for years. He was undefeated and pinned everyone and hold them imobilie for 30 seconds, almot no match lasted more than one minute versus him. No one beat him for years, no Judo brown or black belts of any weight class included. Too strong, too explosive and too fast on the ground, too good at throwings from the ground, and too good at immobilizing and holding people down. I was physically stronger and better at Judo submissions then him put his ground game speed and explosiveness seemed otherworldly, i had no chance. Luckily for me, the roles were inverted in the Savate classes. Put in the mid 2000 he changed my whole perspective of fighting possibilities of wrestling in fights and combat sports.
I forever will thank him for that and also for being humbled in Judo.
Depends too I’ve seen a judoka beat a Greco Roman wrestler
Is it really that rare for BJJ practitioners to not weight train and endurance? Who wouldn't want to get their body as strong as possible while still having endurance?
Many young bjj practicioners i know also do weight training and endurance training, not all. But older bjj guys probably don't
If skills are equal whoever is the better athlete is will most likely win. The average BJJ Purple belt takes between 500-700 hours.
Imagine doing both tho...
It's easy to keep the level high by kicking out everyone who isn't good enough
Actually it's not, it's just available for free in the American school system. If we had BJJ for free at public schools while we had to pay $100 a month to learn WRESTLING at the mall things would look very different🤔😐
w opinion
They learned as children. Hard to do with 'the man' in front of you.. Puppies dont fight to please the big dog, only idiots.
What does wrestling do better at that bjj doesn't?
Was that not discussed in this video?
On the otherhand the bjj nerd has probably never even thought about oil checking someone so they're psychologically in a better place by far