Wright’s insight at the end is excellent. That people who aren’t willing to engage with the language and concepts of “truthful,” “historically accurate” (though not just history) and reject the notion of “inerrancy” as just silly are not going to take its authority very seriously. We get all worried that the language of “without error” will get over-construed, that people will look for a very granulated accuracy, when often it speaks without the specificity we would desire. But it really seems there is no way around it. We all have to grow in nuance, and it’s the same with inerrancy. I also would not hesitate to call scripture the word of God. Of course it is the word of God written, and Jesus is the word of God in flesh, but the prophets don’t avoid saying, “hear the word of the Lord,” so again, we should understand what that means in all its glory and limitations. But most certainly it is that because it calls itself that. Or at least that is the wisdom I would offer to those who ask.
The bible (NT) was written by the Romans to subdue violent Jews. The historical record confirms this is the underlying sentiment during Roman occupation of Judea for c.8 centuries
If it is inspired by the God who cannot lie, what else can you say? It seems unavoidable that you would also conclude that it must also be true. Or at least it must be admitted that it CLAIMS to be TRUE.
@@mfarmer2161 If it is inspired it means God gave inspiration, urge to write to the writers, who were not perfect, and were limited in their language skills. It does not mean God himslef wrote it, like 10 comandments. Also you could argue that the first sources where inerrant but we do not have first versions of texts - we have copies of manuscripts and translations. And translation is always a interpretation of text.
After years of research I personally believe that Moses took ‘something’ very powerful from Egypt when he fled which was directly responsible for all the miracles described in the Old Testament. (The blood in the Nile, the locusts, the splitting of the sea of Galilee, the crumbling of the walls of Jericho, the fire atop Mount Sinai during the time when the tablets were carved Etc..)I think whatever was put in the Ark of the Covanent was extremely powerful and was able to sustain the tribe of Israel through ‘white dew’ for the entirety of the time they were in the Jordan valley. I believe whatever was encased in the ark enabled metaphysical access to the abrahamic God that Moses (either through his staff or by other means) was able to relay the Ten Commandments and other prophecy. It all sounds quite fantastical but Egypt is still a very mysterious place.
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 I thought that as well for a long time, but since the Old Testament is a mix of story telling and proper lineage documentation of high ranking tribe members and other notable events; it leads me to believe that the scribes were quite serious and meticulous about what they wrote down and wanted to preserve. I’ve met a lot of pathological liars in my life, but that text is so specific in certain aspects it strikes me as unlikely to be a fabricated myth. For example the specific layout of the alter room in cubits to worship the ark (placement of the tabernacle, amount of priests allowed in the holy tent Etc). How to handle the ark, and to be cautious around it. It reads more like instructions than myth. So by inference it leads me to believe there’s a bit of truth to the thing having actually existed.
@@Cardioid2035 Hmmmm.....so what you're saying is this "The arc story sounds like myth. Therefore it's likely to be true". Unusual logic, to say the least Do you realise the flood story has been traced back to earlier cultures, at least three versions predate the bible: that of Gilgamesh, Ziusudra, and Atrahasis ?
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Yup I’m aware and I’ve come across all of it. I’ve gone all the way back to proto-cuneiform in Sumer brother. All I’m saying is; despite humanity’s tendencies to create myths and explain the unknown by any means necessary, I still believe that something absolutely crazy went down in the Sinai peninsula a few thousand years ago which was worthy to preserve in scripts that later became the Old Testament. Looking at the ark through modern eyes it seems like it was akin to a form of technology that we’ve lost access to and can no longer understand. I don’t think it was a myth, it’s way too specific if you read the actual text.
1) when “the word of the Lord” came to prophets in the OT it was direct revelation from “the God who cannot lie” and the test that it WAS from God was whether or not it was INFALLIBLE- eg. if everything came to pass. In the NT JESUS claims that all the Scriptures speak of Him and that it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for HIS WORD. Besides all this and much much more, it is the Scriptures THEMSELVES that claim they are infallible in that they claim to be “God-breathed.” 2 Tim 3:16. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter says that no prophecy of Scripture comes from human origin, but is “from God”. I Peter 1:10-11 says that the human writers did not even understand what they were writing, as they were moved along by the “Spirit of Christ in them, indicating…” NT Wright is so weak on this I fear where else he may capitulate. The conclusion that the Scriptures are infallible is an UNAVOIDABLE conclusion drawn from the their own insistence on their inspiration by a God who cannot lie.
Harry Potter is a book full of tall tales and the supernatural. It should be dismissed as a fictional work The bible is a book full of tall tales and the supernatural. It should be dismissed as a fictional work
@@mfarmer2161 Even what you said was correct, the bible is false. Because its claims don't comport with the reality we experience So Jeesus is false/ made-up
@mfarmer2161 Explain the word of Lord to me then: Hosea 13-16 "Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open." 1 Samuel 15:2-3: "Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, children and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ "And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors" "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves" I can give you at least 20 more verses + there are rape verses as well. If you think this is innerant word of God please explain them
@mfarmer2161 If it is inspired it means God gave inspiration, urge to write to the writers, who were not perfect, and were limited in their language skills. It does not mean God himslef wrote it, like 10 comandments. Also you could argue that the first sources where inerrant but we do not have first versions of texts - we have copies of manuscripts and translations. And translation is always a interpretation of text. Just look how much bible translations differ from one another. No todays bibles are NOT infallible.
@@johngregory5424 that’s sad. You’re so eager to reject it that you can’t read it honestly. You’re going to miss knowing the truth and it will cost you eternity. Let me ask you this- what behavior are you worshipping that prevents you from submitting to Christ?
@@johngregory5424 sure. And thank you for your humble response. A real man like you and me wrote this book. This is a record of him struggling with the ultimate meaninglessness of pleasure and wealth and every other pursuit in our lives. Even as an unbeliever I guess that you can see that this is true of human experience, because none of it continues with us beyond this life. If you read chapter one you can get a good enough summary of the next eleven chapters. The last chapter Solomon concludes the book by saying to remember your creator in the days of your life because you can’t find meaning in this life apart from something, actually SOMEONE, OUTSIDE of this life. That is as far as Solomon takes us to the “good news.” The “gospel” of Jesus Christ is that there is actually ultimate meaning in everything we have done for Him. As far as the verse you quoted, it is doing the same thing the other verses in the chapter do- showing the meaningless processes that we endure during this meaningless life (apart from the meaning given everything from outside this life by the Creator). The sun “hurries” back to do it all over again with no progress whatsoever, just like the other verses demonstrate poetically the same thing. I answered you seriously because you seem to have asked seriously. I hope this was clear.
@@PeterKavanagh-c8o there are over five thousand early papyrus fragments and scrolls. Some as early as first century. If you are interested in researching whether or not the Scriptures have been changed by the early church I recommend looking up stuff by Dan Wallace. If you would prefer the opinion of a skeptic on NT reliability- Bart Ehrman also does not believe the NT is inspired but he does admit that the textual variants do not compromise any doctrines. I hope that helps.
People have acted or spoken either fallibly or infallibly. Literature is either errant or inerrant. Hence, the Bible is either errant or inerrant, not fallible or infallible.
The fact that a human, once again is explaining Scripture says it all, because God doesn't exist and its all a man made concept and therefore written by mankind, and its being found out day by day ...
@@dsa3df3 I agree. It was a cowardly answer. Here’s the answer from the Bible itself- Jesus Himself is explaining the correct way to view Scripture; John 5:39-40 “you search the Scriptures because you believe that in THEM you have eternal life. It is THEY THAT BEAR WITNESS ABOUT ME. Yet you refuse to COME TO ME that you may have life.”
Wow this was a beautiful explanation
Wright’s insight at the end is excellent. That people who aren’t willing to engage with the language and concepts of “truthful,” “historically accurate” (though not just history) and reject the notion of “inerrancy” as just silly are not going to take its authority very seriously.
We get all worried that the language of “without error” will get over-construed, that people will look for a very granulated accuracy, when often it speaks without the specificity we would desire.
But it really seems there is no way around it. We all have to grow in nuance, and it’s the same with inerrancy.
I also would not hesitate to call scripture the word of God. Of course it is the word of God written, and Jesus is the word of God in flesh, but the prophets don’t avoid saying, “hear the word of the Lord,” so again, we should understand what that means in all its glory and limitations. But most certainly it is that because it calls itself that.
Or at least that is the wisdom I would offer to those who ask.
The bible (NT) was written by the Romans to subdue violent Jews. The historical record confirms this is the underlying sentiment during Roman occupation of Judea for c.8 centuries
The correct term is Inspired, that’s all we can claim.
If it is inspired by the God who cannot lie, what else can you say? It seems unavoidable that you would also conclude that it must also be true. Or at least it must be admitted that it CLAIMS to be TRUE.
@@mfarmer2161 If it is inspired it means God gave inspiration, urge to write to the writers, who were not perfect, and were limited in their language skills. It does not mean God himslef wrote it, like 10 comandments. Also you could argue that the first sources where inerrant but we do not have first versions of texts - we have copies of manuscripts and translations. And translation is always a interpretation of text.
@@AnalyticalScepticso you are saying scientists are capable of the same problems and could be why scientific fraud is a thing?
you can't even claim that since there is no evidence your imaginary friend merely exists.
@@velkyn1 huh? That makes no sense. The evidence is in the EXISTENCE of ANYTHING. If there ever truly was NOTHING, there would still be NOTHING.
Don’t see the point of the question.
Those who interpret it are fallible anyway.
And there are many willing to offer their interpretation!
No
Inspired by god through man
It's infallible because you believe it. Your belief makes it infallible.
After years of research I personally believe that Moses took ‘something’ very powerful from Egypt when he fled which was directly responsible for all the miracles described in the Old Testament. (The blood in the Nile, the locusts, the splitting of the sea of Galilee, the crumbling of the walls of Jericho, the fire atop Mount Sinai during the time when the tablets were carved Etc..)I think whatever was put in the Ark of the Covanent was extremely powerful and was able to sustain the tribe of Israel through ‘white dew’ for the entirety of the time they were in the Jordan valley. I believe whatever was encased in the ark enabled metaphysical access to the abrahamic God that Moses (either through his staff or by other means) was able to relay the Ten Commandments and other prophecy. It all sounds quite fantastical but Egypt is still a very mysterious place.
World leading historians and archaeologists, specialists in the Near East, believe the central tenets of the OT, include Moses, is steeped in myth
Archeologists use the bible to male sense if what they find, otherwise they have no clue what they are looking at.
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 I thought that as well for a long time, but since the Old Testament is a mix of story telling and proper lineage documentation of high ranking tribe members and other notable events; it leads me to believe that the scribes were quite serious and meticulous about what they wrote down and wanted to preserve. I’ve met a lot of pathological liars in my life, but that text is so specific in certain aspects it strikes me as unlikely to be a fabricated myth. For example the specific layout of the alter room in cubits to worship the ark (placement of the tabernacle, amount of priests allowed in the holy tent Etc). How to handle the ark, and to be cautious around it. It reads more like instructions than myth. So by inference it leads me to believe there’s a bit of truth to the thing having actually existed.
@@Cardioid2035 Hmmmm.....so what you're saying is this
"The arc story sounds like myth. Therefore it's likely to be true". Unusual logic, to say the least
Do you realise the flood story has been traced back to earlier cultures, at least three versions predate the bible: that of Gilgamesh, Ziusudra, and Atrahasis ?
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Yup I’m aware and I’ve come across all of it. I’ve gone all the way back to proto-cuneiform in Sumer brother. All I’m saying is; despite humanity’s tendencies to create myths and explain the unknown by any means necessary, I still believe that something absolutely crazy went down in the Sinai peninsula a few thousand years ago which was worthy to preserve in scripts that later became the Old Testament. Looking at the ark through modern eyes it seems like it was akin to a form of technology that we’ve lost access to and can no longer understand. I don’t think it was a myth, it’s way too specific if you read the actual text.
1) when “the word of the Lord” came to prophets in the OT it was direct revelation from “the God who cannot lie” and the test that it WAS from God was whether or not it was INFALLIBLE- eg. if everything came to pass. In the NT JESUS claims that all the Scriptures speak of Him and that it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for HIS WORD. Besides all this and much much more, it is the Scriptures THEMSELVES that claim they are infallible in that they claim to be “God-breathed.” 2 Tim 3:16. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter says that no prophecy of Scripture comes from human origin, but is “from God”. I Peter 1:10-11 says that the human writers did not even understand what they were writing, as they were moved along by the “Spirit of Christ in them, indicating…”
NT Wright is so weak on this I fear where else he may capitulate. The conclusion that the Scriptures are infallible is an UNAVOIDABLE conclusion drawn from the their own insistence on their inspiration by a God who cannot lie.
Harry Potter is a book full of tall tales and the supernatural. It should be dismissed as a fictional work
The bible is a book full of tall tales and the supernatural. It should be dismissed as a fictional work
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 even naturalists must accept a supernatural beginning.
@@mfarmer2161 Even what you said was correct, the bible is false. Because its claims don't comport with the reality we experience
So Jeesus is false/ made-up
@mfarmer2161 Explain the word of Lord to me then: Hosea 13-16 "Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open." 1 Samuel 15:2-3: "Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, children and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ "And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors" "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves" I can give you at least 20 more verses + there are rape verses as well. If you think this is innerant word of God please explain them
@mfarmer2161 If it is inspired it means God gave inspiration, urge to write to the writers, who were not perfect, and were limited in their language skills. It does not mean God himslef wrote it, like 10 comandments. Also you could argue that the first sources where inerrant but we do not have first versions of texts - we have copies of manuscripts and translations. And translation is always a interpretation of text. Just look how much bible translations differ from one another. No todays bibles are NOT infallible.
Ecclesiastes 1ch v 5 The sun rises and the sun sets then hurries back to where it rises. Complete nonsense.
@@johngregory5424 are you a flat earther?
@@mfarmer2161 No. when the sun sets below your hometown, over which part of the planet does it then increase it`s velocity (Hurry back} ?
@@johngregory5424 that’s sad. You’re so eager to reject it that you can’t read it honestly. You’re going to miss knowing the truth and it will cost you eternity. Let me ask you this- what behavior are you worshipping that prevents you from submitting to Christ?
@@mfarmer2161 Thank you for your responce, please show me the honest way to read it.
@@johngregory5424 sure. And thank you for your humble response. A real man like you and me wrote this book. This is a record of him struggling with the ultimate meaninglessness of pleasure and wealth and every other pursuit in our lives. Even as an unbeliever I guess that you can see that this is true of human experience, because none of it continues with us beyond this life. If you read chapter one you can get a good enough summary of the next eleven chapters. The last chapter Solomon concludes the book by saying to remember your creator in the days of your life because you can’t find meaning in this life apart from something, actually SOMEONE, OUTSIDE of this life. That is as far as Solomon takes us to the “good news.” The “gospel” of Jesus Christ is that there is actually ultimate meaning in everything we have done for Him. As far as the verse you quoted, it is doing the same thing the other verses in the chapter do- showing the meaningless processes that we endure during this meaningless life (apart from the meaning given everything from outside this life by the Creator). The sun “hurries” back to do it all over again with no progress whatsoever, just like the other verses demonstrate poetically the same thing. I answered you seriously because you seem to have asked seriously. I hope this was clear.
The New Testament was entirely edited by the early Catholic Church.
@@PeterKavanagh-c8o that statement goes against ALL the manuscript evidence.
@@PeterKavanagh-c8o there are over five thousand early papyrus fragments and scrolls. Some as early as first century. If you are interested in researching whether or not the Scriptures have been changed by the early church I recommend looking up stuff by Dan Wallace. If you would prefer the opinion of a skeptic on NT reliability- Bart Ehrman also does not believe the NT is inspired but he does admit that the textual variants do not compromise any doctrines. I hope that helps.
People have acted or spoken either fallibly or infallibly. Literature is either errant or inerrant. Hence, the Bible is either errant or inerrant, not fallible or infallible.
If god wanted to teach us things, he chose a poor way of doing it.
@@davepugh2519 how would you have done it?
@@mfarmer2161 I certainly wouldn't have used the 'morality' of Iron-Age goat herders as an example for future generations.
@@davepugh2519 how is their morality different from yours?
@@mfarmer2161 For a start, if I rape someone, I wouldn't expect to be allowed to get away with it by paying the woman's dad and then marrying her.
Apologist.
Sola scriptura
The fact that a human, once again is explaining Scripture says it all, because God doesn't exist and its all a man made concept and therefore written by mankind, and its being found out day by day ...
@@Starchaser63 you have to explain fulfilled prophecy then.
Of course not
Wow what a worthless non-answer, as expected from professional liars aka apologists.
@@dsa3df3 I agree. It was a cowardly answer. Here’s the answer from the Bible itself- Jesus Himself is explaining the correct way to view Scripture; John 5:39-40 “you search the Scriptures because you believe that in THEM you have eternal life. It is THEY THAT BEAR WITNESS ABOUT ME. Yet you refuse to COME TO ME that you may have life.”