The ability to carry out private prosecutions should be removed from rail operators, its caused issues for Post Office, issues for the BBC and is just plain wrong. There are civil proceedings and debt recovery that the private sector uses and that should be enough.
At one time, I was a regular rail user, however I once made an honest mistake- I had a return ticket, Cardiff to Loughborough for a job interview. Unfortunately, I misheard the announcement and boarded a London train on the way back. I spoke to the Guard, who quickly assessed the problem and issued me with tickets for the additional travel, only charging for the extra cost. Well done Guard. Not a penalty fare or threat of prosecution, but common sense. But that was British Rail who seemed to know something about customer service.
@@JBTEvans The story is completely true. The interview was in Loughborough for a electrical commissioning job (in Saudi Arabia, although that wasn't mentioned in the rather vague recruiting ad). The train that I mistakenly boarded was going to St. Pancras so there was no opportunity to change trains on the way. This meant transferring to Paddington and getting a train to Cardiff, so I needed to have a correct ticket for that. I was only charged the additional cost of the extra travel. I do not feel scammed at all, just annoyed with myself for getting on the wrong train. The good news is that I didn't get that job as I had no wish to go to Saudi again (who would?).
When I had a 16-25 Railcard, the ticket machines I used would just charge me £12 if the fare was below that. If that's not the default behaviour on other TOCs machines, that's extremely dubious and seems deliberately obtuse.
yes, ruinous of passengers lives. Over years possibly hundreds or thousands lives mistreated (see Post Office scandal ?). "Any Time" confusion abounds, very misleading ticket. Sad but true.
I think Nigel hit the nail on the head with regards to railcard restrictions, it surely cannot be difficult to print NOT VALID TIMES ON tickets. Having worked at Kings Cross travel centre before my retirement, I am very aware how ticketing restrictions can confuse passemges, and especially the ones who are not listening to advice that they are given. To the powers in charge please get the ticketing system sorted, it is confusing enough for those working in ticket offices, let alone passemgers buying tickets from machines.
2:38 One point which wasn’t mentioned by anyone (including the fare expert surprisingly), the £12 minimum fare doesn’t apply to 16-25 railcards during the months of July and August, hence why he had no problems during his previous aforementioned journeys.
Are we 100% sure he didn't travel in June or earlier ? He willingly chose a train after 1000 to save the £1.60. How many times has he got away with it..... He knew all along IMHO.
Thanks for another excellent weekly update. My compliments to "the young man Sam with the ticket problem" for his eloquent exposition of the situation. Would Northern Fail - surely - be better employed to run the s**ding services in this region???
Two observations: 1. The confusion over fares wouldn't have happened if the ticket had been purchased from a human at a ticket office. 2. Organisations like Northern Rail and the Post Office have clearly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to act responsibly and proportionately with legal matters, and their powers need to be removed.
One of the people that got fined bought a Daisy Hill to Wigan return ticket from the ticket office using their railcard then were given a penalty notice on the train because it was less than £12.
@@watcherzero5256 if that’s the case it’s a staff error and she would be able to pay the correct fare. There might be more to it than that though. Buying at a ticket office doesn’t mean she travelled straight away.
In defence it wasn't a in valid ticket for after 10am! What if a evaders do this every day...soon adds up then the other passengers may see the cheat so do it themselves and it snowballs. Some ticket inspectors don't have any critical thinking...plus northern gate line staff nostly subcontractors and in my experience not the best experience!@@andrewhotston983
I had a run in with a train conductor on the Fort William to Glasgow service around 2017. Soon after leaving Fort William, the conductor came along to check tickets. A girl who got on quite late, declared that although she had booked a ticket, she didn’t have a chance to collect it from the ticket office as it was time for the train to leave. The conductor started and continued to berate this girl for ten minutes, trying to bully her into paying twice and only then carried on their ticket checking duties in a huff. When he got to me, about six seats down, I said to him ‘Can’t you call the station and verify the situation’? More than me jobs worth or words to that effect came back and mumblings about radio or telephone signals. I then said what about the upcoming stations, knowing Roy Bridge, Spean Bridge, Corrour and Rannoch Moor weren’t too far down the line. He mumbled some more. I then said ‘decide what you want to do and if push comes to shove, I offered to pay the £19 fare for the student traveller. Half an hour later, he came back to confirm he’d verified her story and thus issued her a duplicate ticket. Give him his due, he apparently saw reason, did something constructive and was gracious in his future dealings with her but it did not portray himself in a good light. However I wouldn’t immediately associate that unwavering conduct with Scottish Rail as an organisation per-se. Phil 😎😇
@@JBTEvans so your advice would be ‘get on the train, pull the communication cord, go back to the ticket office whilst the train driver does the paperwork, push to the front of the ticket queue, get your ticket, get back on the train, sit down’. Sometimes LIFE gets in the way, especially when the next train is three hours away.
@@gbphil why not find the guard and explain before getting on? hardly like the west highland line is busy and the train couldn't wait a minute if LIFE got in the way, which is always the reason when somebody makes a balls up it seems
I’ve had 3/4 students this morning on pre 10am services with fares discounted to less than £12 using the Railcard. Personally, I’ll take the view of providing some friendly guidance for the future along with advising on T&Cs and ramifications on ignoring them. With all of my passengers today I’ve asked to see the online booking - all were for the first post 10am service to take advantage of lower prices. I wonder why…
Went to London recently (Southern rail) and a similar situation happened to another passenger. All that happened then was the OBS explained the issue and the difference between the railcard ticket and the minimum was paid. No dramas. Seems a customer service issue with Northern tbh
I recently boarded a train from an unmanned station. There was a machine where you could buy a ticket to travel. It was out of order. A ticket inspector came down the carriage where I had my credit card ready to pay. He wasn't having it and said they were prosecuting anyone without a ticket or pass. Luckily another appeared and simply took my payment.
Such poor planning regarding rolling stock. A continous cycle of train replacement would solve this. Very very soon the class 150-166 fleets need to go.... a steady order flow could be quickly organised...if the red tape is cut.
My niece was fined for getting the wrong train even though there was utter timetable chaos and the station display was advertising her correct train at the platform when the delayed wrong train pulled in. Numbskull jobsworth Northern "staff member" - if you can call them that, maybe just the 2nd part - refused to listen at all.
Another random reminiscence from me: Thanks for mentioning the new station in Belfast. I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t know about it until you mentioned it. I have lost touch with things happening over the other side of the Irish Sea. Many years ago (basically, when I was young free and single - no regrets though!) I used to regularly travel there, generally from Holyhead, to get my “broad gauge” fix. Travelled on a number of RPSI tours and, through contacts in the industry, got a number of depot visits! It was always disconcerting to get used to the wider track gauge, then when going home thinking “those tracks look too close together”! Travelled on a number of trains including the NIR DEMUs - think of a class 205 but with the body of a MkII or a class 150 Sprinter! A long-gone colleague of mine who I often travelled with married an Irish girl who he met (I think) during his extensive travels on and photography of the Irish narrow gauge systems in the the 1950s. I think(?) his photos have been published in a book by Capital Transport. Anyway, he was quite a character. I will always remember the way he used to refer to the central bus station in Dublin (Busáras) - “Bus Arse” 🤣🤣🤣
Wouldn't anyone ask themselves why the Northern App is offering the 10:29 train with a Railcard discount applied, but not the 07:29? Surely that should alert the potential buyer that what they are looking at buying isn't valid on the earlier train?! Whether it's an 'Anytime' ticket is irrelevant. The time restriction relates to the Railcard discount. Hardly rocket science, and the media nonsense about the complexity of rail fares is hugely exaggerated. Most regular rail travellers know their way around tickets, and the 'noise' typically comes from bods who have never used rail, and never will! Meanwhile, the range of fares has developed the way it has to maximise revenue, especially on IC flows, and HMT won't allow 'simplification' to equate to even more billions a year needing to be pumped in to prop up the finances of post-covid GB rail. I assume the overwhelming votes by ASLEF and RMT for industrial action on LUL will feature next week? Many people will have mistakenly assumed a Labour government would mean some respite from the circus of rail strikes. Will TfL ensure Elizabeth Line services run normally during strikes, as doubtless ASLEF/RMT will make out it is somehow unsafe due to lots of pax switching from the Central Line... Tim Shoveller's interview is essential viewing. He sums up the exasperation of many of us that the railway, especially Network Rail, has been going backwards for the last 10+ years; specifically by avoiding risk (stopping the job) instead of managing risk. No one should be surprised that he quickly left the mindnumbing inertia, bureaucracy, and risk aversion of NR, to return to a proper job, serving customers, with private sector Freightliner.
Northern are a terrible operator around Manchester. Always canceling trains. Every sunday they cancel trains, because they can get away with it. Or they're either on strike. Utter tripe. They need to be replaced.
Isn’t it about time we got rid of all the different railcards and just had one single card which anyone can buy, similar to the German BahnCard, Swiss HalbTax Card and other similar schemes. Making the conditions of use the same for all of them. While we’re at it getting rid of peak fares times altogether.
@@andrewhotston983 Theres a difference between revenue spending and capital spending. The Black Hole increase is the difference between avoiding actual funding reductions and a real term spending decrease (i.e. if you increased rather than decreased a budget but dont increase spending by the same rate as inflation you still have less in practise).
@@watcherzero5256 Yes, I know. My comment was rhetorical. However, I doubt if my bank manager would lend me the money to extend my house if he knew I was already living way beyond my means.
Good episode as always thanks Quiz is difficult cause there's just so many ways you could answer it Quiz Guess: Sutton Coldfield because its the only one where no service terminates
Richard got the t’s and c’s wrong. The restriction is clear. Look it up yourselves. for all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable, excluding Advance fares. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August. No ambiguity there. I work in a ticket office and see this regularly. The thing is customers always buy online or at a machine for trains after 10 am. Funny that.
No, Richard did not. The 16-25 Railcard Ts & Cs as currently published say the following, below. Clause 4.5 is not clearly drafted and is capable of challenge. We probably all know what it is supposed to say or what is meant by it. As I said on the show it could either say 'that applies between 04h30 and 10h00' or 'from 04h30 to 10h00' but what it actually says is different to that and less clear than it might have been. R 4. Conditions of use of the 16-25 Railcard 4.1. You must be aged between 16 and 25 years old to purchase this Railcard, unless you qualify under condition 4.3. 4.2. 3-year 16-25 Railcards are available online only and may be purchased up until the day before your 24th birthday. 4.3. If you are a full-time student over 25 years old, you may purchase the 1-year Railcard with valid proof of full time study. See 16-25railcard.co.uk/maturestudents for details of the valid proof required. 4.4. If you bought your physical Railcard at a rail station, you must carry your separate 16-25 Photocard that was issued at the time of purchase (or where appropriate a ‘Permit to travel without Photocard’) and you must present this in any circumstance where you present your physical Railcard (i.e. when buying tickets and travelling with Railcard discounted tickets). 4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to: 4.5.1. Advance tickets; or 4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or 4.5.3. journeys during July and August. At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.
I use the trains a lot and still find ticket restrictions a mess. Recent ticket changes to some TOC fares around London at peak times has been the opposite to proposed ticket simplifications. A few weeks ago I went to buy an off peak travelcard from the ticket machines using a Senior railcard at our local GTR / Southern station but it wont issue such tickets before 09.30 yet I can buy the railcard discounted ticket at the ticket office and use it on the 09.11 and 09.18 train from our station. The ticket office staff confirmed this to me when I asked why the ticket machines wouldnt issue the ticket.
Connecting the two railways in Windsor is an interesting idea, but would be tricky as one arrives on a long viaduct (GWR) and one almost at river level (LSWR). It would have a significant impact on riverside access for pedestrians and vehicles and wouldn't enhance the natural beauty of the area, so it doesn't seem likely or a realistic prospect. I imagine the residents of the castle might have a view on such an idea, too...
A 16 to 25 railcard should not have a price minimum as it’s marketed at college student etc, who need to be in college/Uni etc by 9am just like office workers. The whole system is designed to catch people out.
Actual fare evasion is too easy anyway on Northern , the train staff have an impossible job checking tickets on the trains sometimes due to overcrowding , getting down the train at all can be feat in itself ! Boarding another TOCs train in order to get home , because of cancellations , also can be a problem . The whole system is unweildy and complicated . I think the travelling public are confused , as well as the staff trying to do their jobs . I know people who will not use the train at all because of all the hassle . I use a senior railcard because at 77 , I can remember when train travel was a lot easier . We live in an age where we are being forced to have smartphones , use apps and squiggly barcodes for everything under the sun . Sorry to be a dinosaur! Dave H Carnforth .
Windsor & Eton Central is a shopping mall and tourist cafe area with a railway platform attached at the back (not that well signposted). The building itself is worthy of attention and the commercial development certainly brings in lots of visitors who can benefit from seeing a building they might otherwise have missed. The shuttle from Slough is very heavily used and often struggles to provide enough capacity at peak times (a pleasant challenge to have, though restricting the use of the down fast platform at Slough means the overbridges to and from the slow lines get pretty crowded).
Good to see you discussing the ticket issue. Note that i believe the fact the railcard could and was used in August before 10am, correctly, was not highlighted. Its that odd exception that adds to the confusion as the railcard is valid before 10am on some months. Instead of an anytime ticket maybe a ticket named after the railcard would be better. Looking forward to the Derby visit. The Windsor stations are at different heights making a steep tunnel tricky I suspect.
@@JBTEvans I agree the terms are clear but ive seen many people being caught our by them as they buy in summer and forget about future restrictions. Of course the passenger is at fault but maybe the rules are too easy to forget as there is a disconnect between the anytime ticket name and railcard rules which override its normal meaning.
I love the phrase "the return on investment is clear"! Clearly negative, clearly non-existent, or clearly positive? If the latter, surely the private sector will be keen to invest in a new railway north of Handsacre??!!
I’ve had debate with ticket inspectors as I’ve taken a following train when the one I’d booked was overcrowded and therefore unable to board. I was told I should have got a refund and bought new ticket but Northerns website appears to say otherwise, I was permitted but many issues of ticketing are confusing.
Hi Ben, You're absolutely right - it's the confusion that's the problem, which is one of the things we discussed about Sam's case. Fare evasion is a big problem, but we don't help ourselves as an industry if we make ticketing too confusing for people to understand the rules!
@@GreenSignals the other point here is that there are tickets that are never being checked when overcrowding occurs, the ticket inspector simply cannot get through the train to check, barriers are frequently left open and or don’t exist at some stations anyway. People know it’s perfectly possible now on a busy Saturday to get from Middlesbrough to Sunderland without a ticket because it’s impossible to check, then switch to Metro at Sunderland continue a journey to Newcastle paying only the Metro fare.
Buying a ticket online shows that the railcard fares are not available on the early trains, you have to scroll down to find it against a later train. It would of course help if the sites showed why the fare wasn’t available on the earlier trains but if I find a cheaper ticket isn’t available for the train I want I tend to investigate why. At which point it would become clear the railcard isn’t valid. Ticket inspectors have multiple people day in day out trying to get out of paying the right fare so it’s not surprising they are cynical when they find someone who has made a mistake. Of course simplifying fares just means that as it’s bound to need to be revenue neutral lots of people will be paying more so resulting in lots of complaints.
However… I did download the Northern app and it appear you can actually buy a pre 10am ticket discounted with a 16/25 railcard. Certainly, in my own neck of the woods this is not possible.
Wait until you learn about the Network Railcard. Has a minimum fare of £13, but can't be used before 1000hrs under any circumstances. Completely different T&C's to all other R/C's with a min fare. So the min fare rules don't apply even where they do for all other R/C's. Not confusing for guards/ RP staff at all. Needs sorting ASAP from a Trainee Senior Conductor
My condelences to Sam I have been in a similar situation glad its over. HS2 and NPR in full is the only option going for an inferior alternative will make both projects more expensive and less beneficial. Stop chop and change.
All signalling should be wireless. There is no reason why it can't be. Then it can't be meddled with using the newest technology. Which, can be updateled regularly.
Like a lot of things on the railwaya, common sense can sometimes go out of the window re: rail fare evasion. I would also say that the rail companies are also to blame here. Because it costs to have multiple (sensible fares) on the fares database e.g. off peak single in addition anytime singles, it is hard to determine exactly what tickets are valid and where. If you say a youngster down and explained how rail tickets worked here I the UK, most would be put off for life. TOCs also charge for changing tickets or refunding tickets, so Sam would have been out of pocket anyway (because there would have been a £10 admin fee for the refund of the original ticket and the cost of the new ticket ) so there isn't the incentive if people make honest mistakes.
How much cost would Northern Rail have to spend in their people's time and effort to recover £ 1.90? It sounds like no human intervention oversight to determine whether it would be cost-effective to take someone to court. They should only try to get the person to pay by asking when the amount is so small This person was not trying to travel without a ticket but made a mistake trying to interpret the convoluted rules applied to railcard users. it would appear that "might is right " when it comes to large companies having Draconian rules that they adhere to mechanically.
My brother had to board a train the other day when there wasn't an open booking office and Northern staff tried to penalise him £100 for travelling without a ticket when it hadn't been his fault. Luckily the case got dropped. They even tried it on me years ago but I had photographic proof that the office was shut so there wasn't anything they could do about it.
@greenSignals Can we talk Japan.Nippon. Fast trains everywhere, with a "swiss clock" timing with bus (eg Horoshima Station, Shin Saporro = High Speed upgrades.. but also new maglev under construction in Shinagawa..) and besides that theres 5 projects in Nagoya alone for elevation and flyover for grade seperation.
@@vernongoodey5096 If only JR run UK rail would be happy.. Their more like the scottish approach+welsh. where there need to be a minimum sercice (eg minimum church service etc) and its so cheap.. u can go for a quick meal and a half pint in local... lol.. (spent time in Nippon but everywhere was good bus+train) or cheap town.taxi..
Opposite = My Japanese GF and I got on a train to OsaksKobe.. The guard boarded the train and approached me.. i was nervous foreigner... he asked can i see your ticket... look at ticket.. where u travel to ?.. u foreigher ?.. wanna visit..? are u travelling over next 7 days in osaka area ? YES said GF.. then its cheaper to get a pass.. Stamps PASS.APPLY in back of ticket and off he goes.. Went to ticket office bough a £20 railcard and got the £2.10 deducted.. ;-)))
Byelaw 18 should be repealed as it unfairly imposes strict liability on passengers for ticketing mistakes. If a railway allows a passenger through a ticket barrier, it has effectively accepted their presence, and it should be the railway's responsibility to deny entry if the ticket is invalid. Prosecution should focus on dishonest fare evasion, not innocent mistakes. The current system grants railways and train operating companies privileges not seen in other industries, where intent typically plays a key role in legal violations. Reform is needed to ensure passengers are not criminalized for accidental errors.
Were did the passenger buying the SDS to Man Vic buy there ticket That's what needs clarification I worked in a railway booking office for many years and the £12 minimum has been in force a long time What needs to happen when buying online any ticket with a yp railcard is a statement stating the times it can be used and travelling before 10am minimum £12 fare there should be a tick box to confirm you've understood. Before the ticket can be retailed If the ticket was retailed at a station they should have been asked what time they were travelling and the restrictions in place Finally unfortunately people do try it on I've had many times with customers trying to buy a yp single for less than the minimum £12 which applies even after the 34% discount is applied so a £15 ticket which you would pay £10 for after 10am would still cost £12 so still some discount given I can see both sides of this and Northern were well within there rights to ask for an explanation to someone who was travelling without a valid ticket the word VALID being of the utmost prevalence
@@andrewhotston983 No smart arse not like I mean. There is no more similarity between fare dodging and prosecution than and any body else really committing a crime. Too difficult a concept for you is it? You do the crime you do the time, the post office was not the same.
@@jamescollins3647 Other comments on here have compared Northern Rail to the Post Office, too. If you'd watched the video you'd know that it's far from certain that the traveller intended to dodge paying the extra £1.30.
@@andrewhotston983 There is no similarity to the post office or the chap in Manchester who served years in jail for a crime he did not commit. It is just fashionable now for people to compare any wrong to the post office scandal. There is no proof that he did intend to pay the £1.30 but you assume he did. Assumptions are often wrong.
@@jamescollins3647 Giving someone a criminal record for an underpayment of £1.30 is EXACTLY the kind of official overreach that the Post Office engaged in.
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for Sam. It is clearly noted when you buy a 16-25 railcard that it is not for use before 10am on weekdays, apart from in July and August. I first purchased a 16-25 railcard in April 2011 as a freshly turned 16 year old and can clearly remember using it in July 2011 and being excited that the £12 minimum fare rule did not apply as I wanted to buy a cheaper than that ticket and travel earlier than 10am. The ticketing apps when you go to a buy a ticket will show the cheapest fare valid for that specific train time. Had he bought from a ticket machine or office he would not have been able to have purchased the ticket he did. He must've scrolled down and purchased a ticket for later in the day, maybe he did this as the week earlier the restriction would not have applied. Anytime is just a fare type, the railcard restrictions still apply! Given £12 is not a great deal, it only affects short distance journeys - it is not meant to be used to commute to work/college/uni etc. Northern's response was over the top, but rail fare fraud is a massive problem and when you multiply all the £1.90s across the network it adds up to a lot, which causes fare prices to rise for passengers who purchase the correct fare. Also, there could have been a history of fraud on his online ticket account, that is why he would have been reported by the conductor. These things get investigated at a very deep level. Fares in the UK are complex and all that, and yes do need simplifying, but I feel Sam was intentionally trying to save a few quid. Not all of us were born yesterday.
Life is so complex who the hell will have the time to think that deeply about buying a ticket and thinking that £1.90 is so significant. At least Sam bought a ticket, unfortunately the railway is not efficient and in all fairness, perhaps they should scrap tickets completely. This whole situation is about throwing power around. What annoys me is someone travelling might be unwell, have incredible life challenges, be grieving the death of someone or travelling to go to a funeral parlour, a dying love one... etc. And it's ridiculous the amount of unnecessary power and people like you giving "not much sympathy" for people who have committed insignificant things that don't affect you.
@@liltenchu527 well I had to purchase tickets for £6 whatever to go to job interviews and not use my railcard so why should I feel sorry for Sam when I could've done the same thing and had potentially faced the same problem? Instead I paid my way. Ignorance is no defence.
Can I just ask if the estimated economic benefit of the M6 Toll has come to fruition? That's the biggest bypass built in the West Mids which was meant to cut congestion around the Birmingham/Dudley area up to this point. The new HS2 leg will be bigger and cost more. Quite frankly the M6 Toll has done dick! One reason is that the toll charges keep going up so no one will pay it. However, I remember when it was first built and it was cheap it still didn't do anything to relieving the traffic volume then. I highly doubt the people using trucks to move their goods about the country are going to be rubbing their hands at the idea of having quicker train freight routes when your previous post showed the guy from Freightliner said that train freight costs are increasing and road costs aren't. So even with this fancy bypass and having lots of extra capacity what benefit will it give the likes of Stafford and Lichfield and the surrounding area? What will be the impact to the same area in terms interruption to travel, farming and general living whilst this thing is being built. I don't care about Manchester or the North. I live and work in the area you're itching to chop up so can you answer the questions please.
Having listened further, I am shocked at the suggestion of dropping the £12 minimum rule. The 16-25 railcard is not meant for students travelling for education or early career commuting. It is focused on leisure activities. The 26-30 railcard does not allow July & August to be exempt either. They have recently reduced the discount of railcards from 34% to 33.3% to generate some extra income into the railway, so there is next to no chance they are going to drop the £12 minimum fare. If anything they will just scrap being able to use it on anytime tickets of any cost which will cost people a lot more than £1.90! Yes the RDG are behind railcards now and I am surprised that was not researched. Sam should've been made an example of.
20:20 if you take away the railcard from this, it is a valid ticket. The clause is there that says if valid ticket, pay the difference. This is not subject to interpretation. The train company won't like that because it leaves the avenue open for abuse, but I see no logical way to claim the ticket its self is invalid if that rule is on the books.
28:00 disappointed by this reaction. I wonder if another passenger on the same train made the same journey but purchased the correct fare despite having a railcard is having a £1.90 refund? If I was a passenger I would not be happy knowing somebody broke the rules and paid less, and is almost being celebrated for it rather than being punished. What kind of message is being sent out here? Fare evasion is okay because it's an anytime ticket which is not really an anytime ticket? Missing the point that it's not the ticket, it is the railcard discount that is not permitted. Very disappointed of this take from a rail based podcast with senior industry figures. He wasn't even close to the cut off time, 0726 is peak peak! Maybe I should purchase a cheaper incorrect ticket the next time I travel at peak peak time and then gloat about it and make out the company is in the wrong!
The point you are missing is that the chap did not deny he had underpaid and was perfectly prepared to pay the ticket inspector the difference, buy a new ticket, or pay the penalty fare. Nobody was saying he should have been allowed to travel without consequence, nor that he should be celebrated for doing so.
The ability to carry out private prosecutions should be removed from rail operators, its caused issues for Post Office, issues for the BBC and is just plain wrong.
There are civil proceedings and debt recovery that the private sector uses and that should be enough.
At one time, I was a regular rail user, however I once made an honest mistake- I had a return ticket, Cardiff to Loughborough for a job interview. Unfortunately, I misheard the announcement and boarded a London train on the way back. I spoke to the Guard, who quickly assessed the problem and issued me with tickets for the additional travel, only charging for the extra cost.
Well done Guard. Not a penalty fare or threat of prosecution, but common sense. But that was British Rail who seemed to know something about customer service.
@@MervynPartin that still goes on! Often they will let you go back for free so you actually got scammed (if this story is even true)
@@JBTEvans The story is completely true. The interview was in Loughborough for a electrical commissioning job (in Saudi Arabia, although that wasn't mentioned in the rather vague recruiting ad). The train that I mistakenly boarded was going to St. Pancras so there was no opportunity to change trains on the way. This meant transferring to Paddington and getting a train to Cardiff, so I needed to have a correct ticket for that. I was only charged the additional cost of the extra travel. I do not feel scammed at all, just annoyed with myself for getting on the wrong train.
The good news is that I didn't get that job as I had no wish to go to Saudi again (who would?).
When I had a 16-25 Railcard, the ticket machines I used would just charge me £12 if the fare was below that. If that's not the default behaviour on other TOCs machines, that's extremely dubious and seems deliberately obtuse.
yes, ruinous of passengers lives. Over years possibly hundreds or thousands lives mistreated (see Post Office scandal ?). "Any Time" confusion abounds, very misleading ticket.
Sad but true.
@@Carlos-im3hn post office scandal is nothing like abusing a railcard
I think Nigel hit the nail on the head with regards to railcard restrictions, it surely cannot be difficult to print NOT VALID TIMES ON tickets. Having worked at Kings Cross travel centre before my retirement, I am very aware how ticketing restrictions can confuse passemges, and especially the ones who are not listening to advice that they are given. To the powers in charge please get the ticketing system sorted, it is confusing enough for those working in ticket offices, let alone passemgers buying tickets from machines.
@@terryskinner3982 the guy chose a train three hours later on the app. He knew what he was doing.
Thanks
Thanks!
2:38 One point which wasn’t mentioned by anyone (including the fare expert surprisingly), the £12 minimum fare doesn’t apply to 16-25 railcards during the months of July and August, hence why he had no problems during his previous aforementioned journeys.
Are we 100% sure he didn't travel in June or earlier ? He willingly chose a train after 1000 to save the £1.60. How many times has he got away with it..... He knew all along IMHO.
@@markitg1972 We don’t know that, but presumably Northern would have that information and chosen to pursue if they detected a pattern of such
Thanks for another excellent weekly update. My compliments to "the young man Sam with the ticket problem" for his eloquent exposition of the situation. Would Northern Fail - surely - be better employed to run the s**ding services in this region???
Another interesting and informative video. Thanks you three!
Thanks very much, glad you enjoyed it!
Two observations:
1. The confusion over fares wouldn't have happened if the ticket had been purchased from a human at a ticket office.
2. Organisations like Northern Rail and the Post Office have clearly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to act responsibly and proportionately with legal matters, and their powers need to be removed.
@@JBTEvans I edited that twice and the correction didn't save. Thanks for pointing it out.
One of the people that got fined bought a Daisy Hill to Wigan return ticket from the ticket office using their railcard then were given a penalty notice on the train because it was less than £12.
@@watcherzero5256 Crazy. They should sue Northern Rail for selling an invalid ticket.
@@watcherzero5256 if that’s the case it’s a staff error and she would be able to pay the correct fare. There might be more to it than that though. Buying at a ticket office doesn’t mean she travelled straight away.
In defence it wasn't a in valid ticket for after 10am! What if a evaders do this every day...soon adds up then the other passengers may see the cheat so do it themselves and it snowballs.
Some ticket inspectors don't have any critical thinking...plus northern gate line staff nostly subcontractors and in my experience not the best experience!@@andrewhotston983
Fantastic episode guys.
Once again thank you for mentioning our page.
Remember Mrs Blair got caught with no ticket at all (after her husband Tony had inforced the new rail rules) and she was let off completely!
I had a run in with a train conductor on the Fort William to Glasgow service around 2017. Soon after leaving Fort William, the conductor came along to check tickets. A girl who got on quite late, declared that although she had booked a ticket, she didn’t have a chance to collect it from the ticket office as it was time for the train to leave. The conductor started and continued to berate this girl for ten minutes, trying to bully her into paying twice and only then carried on their ticket checking duties in a huff.
When he got to me, about six seats down, I said to him ‘Can’t you call the station and verify the situation’? More than me jobs worth or words to that effect came back and mumblings about radio or telephone signals. I then said what about the upcoming stations, knowing Roy Bridge, Spean Bridge, Corrour and Rannoch Moor weren’t too far down the line. He mumbled some more. I then said ‘decide what you want to do and if push comes to shove, I offered to pay the £19 fare for the student traveller. Half an hour later, he came back to confirm he’d verified her story and thus issued her a duplicate ticket.
Give him his due, he apparently saw reason, did something constructive and was gracious in his future dealings with her but it did not portray himself in a good light.
However I wouldn’t immediately associate that unwavering conduct with Scottish Rail as an organisation per-se.
Phil
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@@gbphil it’s a persons responsibility to ensure they collect their ticket
@@JBTEvans so your advice would be ‘get on the train, pull the communication cord, go back to the ticket office whilst the train driver does the paperwork, push to the front of the ticket queue, get your ticket, get back on the train, sit down’. Sometimes LIFE gets in the way, especially when the next train is three hours away.
@@gbphil why not find the guard and explain before getting on? hardly like the west highland line is busy and the train couldn't wait a minute if LIFE got in the way, which is always the reason when somebody makes a balls up it seems
I’ve had 3/4 students this morning on pre 10am services with fares discounted to less than £12 using the Railcard. Personally, I’ll take the view of providing some friendly guidance for the future along with advising on T&Cs and ramifications on ignoring them. With all of my passengers today I’ve asked to see the online booking - all were for the first post 10am service to take advantage of lower prices. I wonder why…
Went to London recently (Southern rail) and a similar situation happened to another passenger. All that happened then was the OBS explained the issue and the difference between the railcard ticket and the minimum was paid. No dramas. Seems a customer service issue with Northern tbh
Take your time and try and find anything good to say about Northern. Could be difficult.
@@simonh317 this guy could’ve had a history of buying the wrong fares though …
I recently boarded a train from an unmanned station. There was a machine where you could buy a ticket to travel. It was out of order. A ticket inspector came down the carriage where I had my credit card ready to pay. He wasn't having it and said they were prosecuting anyone without a ticket or pass. Luckily another appeared and simply took my payment.
This happened to me a couple of weeks ago and I took a photo of the faulty machine and had no problem.
Brilliant show as always
Such poor planning regarding rolling stock. A continous cycle of train replacement would solve this. Very very soon the class 150-166 fleets need to go.... a steady order flow could be quickly organised...if the red tape is cut.
@@macstar2010 150s are being sent for scrap already
My niece was fined for getting the wrong train even though there was utter timetable chaos and the station display was advertising her correct train at the platform when the delayed wrong train pulled in. Numbskull jobsworth Northern "staff member" - if you can call them that, maybe just the 2nd part - refused to listen at all.
Another random reminiscence from me:
Thanks for mentioning the new station in Belfast. I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t know about it until you mentioned it. I have lost touch with things happening over the other side of the Irish Sea.
Many years ago (basically, when I was young free and single - no regrets though!) I used to regularly travel there, generally from Holyhead, to get my “broad gauge” fix. Travelled on a number of RPSI tours and, through contacts in the industry, got a number of depot visits! It was always disconcerting to get used to the wider track gauge, then when going home thinking “those tracks look too close together”!
Travelled on a number of trains including the NIR DEMUs - think of a class 205 but with the body of a MkII or a class 150 Sprinter!
A long-gone colleague of mine who I often travelled with married an Irish girl who he met (I think) during his extensive travels on and photography of the Irish narrow gauge systems in the the 1950s. I think(?) his photos have been published in a book by Capital Transport.
Anyway, he was quite a character. I will always remember the way he used to refer to the central bus station in Dublin (Busáras) - “Bus Arse” 🤣🤣🤣
Wouldn't anyone ask themselves why the Northern App is offering the 10:29 train with a Railcard discount applied, but not the 07:29? Surely that should alert the potential buyer that what they are looking at buying isn't valid on the earlier train?! Whether it's an 'Anytime' ticket is irrelevant. The time restriction relates to the Railcard discount. Hardly rocket science, and the media nonsense about the complexity of rail fares is hugely exaggerated. Most regular rail travellers know their way around tickets, and the 'noise' typically comes from bods who have never used rail, and never will! Meanwhile, the range of fares has developed the way it has to maximise revenue, especially on IC flows, and HMT won't allow 'simplification' to equate to even more billions a year needing to be pumped in to prop up the finances of post-covid GB rail.
I assume the overwhelming votes by ASLEF and RMT for industrial action on LUL will feature next week? Many people will have mistakenly assumed a Labour government would mean some respite from the circus of rail strikes. Will TfL ensure Elizabeth Line services run normally during strikes, as doubtless ASLEF/RMT will make out it is somehow unsafe due to lots of pax switching from the Central Line...
Tim Shoveller's interview is essential viewing. He sums up the exasperation of many of us that the railway, especially Network Rail, has been going backwards for the last 10+ years; specifically by avoiding risk (stopping the job) instead of managing risk. No one should be surprised that he quickly left the mindnumbing inertia, bureaucracy, and risk aversion of NR, to return to a proper job, serving customers, with private sector Freightliner.
Northern are a terrible operator around Manchester. Always canceling trains.
Every sunday they cancel trains, because they can get away with it.
Or they're either on strike. Utter tripe.
They need to be replaced.
Isn’t it about time we got rid of all the different railcards and just had one single card which anyone can buy, similar to the German BahnCard, Swiss HalbTax Card and other similar schemes. Making the conditions of use the same for all of them.
While we’re at it getting rid of peak fares times altogether.
Great show guys , Cup of coffee , some biscuits can't go wrong. Thanks David
Thanks David, sounds like a great way to enjoy the show!
Looks like HS2 is back on to Crewe according to the latest from LBC.
Which might explain why the fiscal 'black hole" is rumoured to have expanded from £22 billion to £40 billion!
@@andrewhotston983 Theres a difference between revenue spending and capital spending. The Black Hole increase is the difference between avoiding actual funding reductions and a real term spending decrease (i.e. if you increased rather than decreased a budget but dont increase spending by the same rate as inflation you still have less in practise).
@@watcherzero5256 Yes, I know. My comment was rhetorical. However, I doubt if my bank manager would lend me the money to extend my house if he knew I was already living way beyond my means.
@@bfapple I could put the new rooms on Airbnb. My analogy is valid.
Sam's case. He did say, I have used this before with no problems, my guess the ticket inspector elevated this for that reason!
Good episode as always thanks
Quiz is difficult cause there's just so many ways you could answer it
Quiz Guess: Sutton Coldfield because its the only one where no service terminates
Richard got the t’s and c’s wrong. The restriction is clear. Look it up yourselves.
for all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable, excluding Advance fares. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.
No ambiguity there. I work in a ticket office and see this regularly. The thing is customers always buy online or at a machine for trains after 10 am. Funny that.
No, Richard did not. The 16-25 Railcard Ts & Cs as currently published say the following, below. Clause 4.5 is not clearly drafted and is capable of challenge. We probably all know what it is supposed to say or what is meant by it. As I said on the show it could either say 'that applies between 04h30 and 10h00' or 'from 04h30 to 10h00' but what it actually says is different to that and less clear than it might have been. R
4. Conditions of use of the 16-25 Railcard
4.1. You must be aged between 16 and 25 years old to purchase this Railcard, unless you qualify under condition 4.3.
4.2. 3-year 16-25 Railcards are available online only and may be purchased up until the day before your 24th birthday.
4.3. If you are a full-time student over 25 years old, you may purchase the 1-year Railcard with valid proof of full time study. See 16-25railcard.co.uk/maturestudents for details of the valid proof required.
4.4. If you bought your physical Railcard at a rail station, you must carry your separate 16-25 Photocard that was issued at the time of purchase (or where appropriate a ‘Permit to travel without Photocard’) and you must present this in any circumstance where you present your physical Railcard (i.e. when buying tickets and travelling with Railcard discounted tickets).
4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:
4.5.1. Advance tickets; or
4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or
4.5.3. journeys during July and August.
At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.
I use the trains a lot and still find ticket restrictions a mess. Recent ticket changes to some TOC fares around London at peak times has been the opposite to proposed ticket simplifications.
A few weeks ago I went to buy an off peak travelcard from the ticket machines using a Senior railcard at our local GTR / Southern station but it wont issue such tickets before 09.30 yet I can buy the railcard discounted ticket at the ticket office and use it on the 09.11 and 09.18 train from our station. The ticket office staff confirmed this to me when I asked why the ticket machines wouldnt issue the ticket.
Connecting the two railways in Windsor is an interesting idea, but would be tricky as one arrives on a long viaduct (GWR) and one almost at river level (LSWR). It would have a significant impact on riverside access for pedestrians and vehicles and wouldn't enhance the natural beauty of the area, so it doesn't seem likely or a realistic prospect. I imagine the residents of the castle might have a view on such an idea, too...
A 16 to 25 railcard should not have a price minimum as it’s marketed at college student etc, who need to be in college/Uni etc by 9am just like office workers. The whole system is designed to catch people out.
@@grenfellroad8394 the railcard is not designed for getting to uni etc. that’s why it’s not valid before 10! That’s what season tickets are for
@JBTEvans Railcards needs to be updated before 10AM. Season tickets are a ridiculous con.
A quiz question I'm pretty certain I know the answer to! Brightens up a pretty grim week.
Excellent! Good luck Simon. And sorry to hear it's otherwise been a grim week.
Hi from Glasgow have you heard about the carion at AcnaBelt Betwen the owner and Network Rail
Actual fare evasion is too easy anyway on Northern , the train staff have an impossible job checking tickets on the trains sometimes due to overcrowding , getting down the train at all can be feat in itself ! Boarding another TOCs train in order to get home , because of cancellations , also can be a problem . The whole system is unweildy and complicated . I think the travelling public are confused , as well as the staff trying to do their jobs . I know people who will not use the train at all because of all the hassle . I use a senior railcard because at 77 , I can remember when train travel was a lot easier . We live in an age where we are being forced to have smartphones , use apps and squiggly barcodes for everything under the sun . Sorry to be a dinosaur! Dave H Carnforth .
Windsor & Eton Central is a shopping mall and tourist cafe area with a railway platform attached at the back (not that well signposted). The building itself is worthy of attention and the commercial development certainly brings in lots of visitors who can benefit from seeing a building they might otherwise have missed. The shuttle from Slough is very heavily used and often struggles to provide enough capacity at peak times (a pleasant challenge to have, though restricting the use of the down fast platform at Slough means the overbridges to and from the slow lines get pretty crowded).
Slough to Windsor must be the most expensive journey in the UK. £3.50 single for 2 miles 64 chains (4.5km).
Good to see you discussing the ticket issue. Note that i believe the fact the railcard could and was used in August before 10am, correctly, was not highlighted. Its that odd exception that adds to the confusion as the railcard is valid before 10am on some months.
Instead of an anytime ticket maybe a ticket named after the railcard would be better.
Looking forward to the Derby visit.
The Windsor stations are at different heights making a steep tunnel tricky I suspect.
@@allanmorton6022 what’s so confusing about it being valid before 10am in July and August when college, sixth form and university is not on?
@@JBTEvans I agree the terms are clear but ive seen many people being caught our by them as they buy in summer and forget about future restrictions. Of course the passenger is at fault but maybe the rules are too easy to forget as there is a disconnect between the anytime ticket name and railcard rules which override its normal meaning.
Do the same terms and restrictions apply to Senior citizen railcards?
I thought it was 8th October and not October 8th as our dear friends across the pond say... 😂
I love the phrase "the return on investment is clear"! Clearly negative, clearly non-existent, or clearly positive? If the latter, surely the private sector will be keen to invest in a new railway north of Handsacre??!!
I’ve had debate with ticket inspectors as I’ve taken a following train when the one I’d booked was overcrowded and therefore unable to board. I was told I should have got a refund and bought new ticket but Northerns website appears to say otherwise, I was permitted but many issues of ticketing are confusing.
Hi Ben, You're absolutely right - it's the confusion that's the problem, which is one of the things we discussed about Sam's case. Fare evasion is a big problem, but we don't help ourselves as an industry if we make ticketing too confusing for people to understand the rules!
@@GreenSignals the other point here is that there are tickets that are never being checked when overcrowding occurs, the ticket inspector simply cannot get through the train to check, barriers are frequently left open and or don’t exist at some stations anyway. People know it’s perfectly possible now on a busy Saturday to get from Middlesbrough to Sunderland without a ticket because it’s impossible to check, then switch to Metro at Sunderland continue a journey to Newcastle paying only the Metro fare.
Buying a ticket online shows that the railcard fares are not available on the early trains, you have to scroll down to find it against a later train. It would of course help if the sites showed why the fare wasn’t available on the earlier trains but if I find a cheaper ticket isn’t available for the train I want I tend to investigate why. At which point it would become clear the railcard isn’t valid. Ticket inspectors have multiple people day in day out trying to get out of paying the right fare so it’s not surprising they are cynical when they find someone who has made a mistake.
Of course simplifying fares just means that as it’s bound to need to be revenue neutral lots of people will be paying more so resulting in lots of complaints.
However… I did download the Northern app and it appear you can actually buy a pre 10am ticket discounted with a 16/25 railcard. Certainly, in my own neck of the woods this is not possible.
Wait until you learn about the Network Railcard. Has a minimum fare of £13, but can't be used before 1000hrs under any circumstances. Completely different T&C's to all other R/C's with a min fare. So the min fare rules don't apply even where they do for all other R/C's. Not confusing for guards/ RP staff at all. Needs sorting ASAP from a Trainee Senior Conductor
Re: HS2: Scotland is getting screwed, as it the North East.
My condelences to Sam I have been in a similar situation glad its over. HS2 and NPR in full is the only option going for an inferior alternative will make both projects more expensive and less beneficial. Stop chop and change.
What!....what! No supper thanks from the independent Brigg line association? 😊😊😊 have they gone bust? Or on holiday 😅😅
If a rail card has a time restriction then the app should not allow the purchase of an anytime ticket. Fix the app!
Odd ones out is Sutton Coldfield it’s the only one I haven’t visited I wonder if nigel was going to say the same
#mustvisit #goldmembers
very easy quiz answer today i guess it was nigels idea.
Ooh, harsh. We'll have to see whether you get the right answer then!
@@GreenSignals I'm hurt I tell you...hurt!!!
All signalling should be wireless. There is no reason why it can't be. Then it can't be meddled with using the newest technology. Which, can be updateled regularly.
On LBC with James o Brien they announced they are on about bringing back Birmingham to Crewe section that'll be good news
Tap in/out surely is the fix?
Northern sold him the ticket with the railcard so its their fault
that looks a very odd fire ? fiber optics ?? now why would they burn ??
Has Mick Lynch made any observation on the behaviour of his union member?
Like a lot of things on the railwaya, common sense can sometimes go out of the window re: rail fare evasion. I would also say that the rail companies are also to blame here. Because it costs to have multiple (sensible fares) on the fares database e.g. off peak single in addition anytime singles, it is hard to determine exactly what tickets are valid and where. If you say a youngster down and explained how rail tickets worked here I the UK, most would be put off for life. TOCs also charge for changing tickets or refunding tickets, so Sam would have been out of pocket anyway (because there would have been a £10 admin fee for the refund of the original ticket and the cost of the new ticket ) so there isn't the incentive if people make honest mistakes.
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How much cost would Northern Rail have to spend in their people's time and effort to recover £ 1.90? It sounds like no human intervention oversight to determine whether it would be cost-effective to take someone to court.
They should only try to get the person to pay by asking when the amount is so small
This person was not trying to travel without a ticket but made a mistake trying to interpret the convoluted rules applied to railcard users. it would appear that "might is right " when it comes to large companies having Draconian rules that they adhere to mechanically.
My brother had to board a train the other day when there wasn't an open booking office and Northern staff tried to penalise him £100 for travelling without a ticket when it hadn't been his fault. Luckily the case got dropped. They even tried it on me years ago but I had photographic proof that the office was shut so there wasn't anything they could do about it.
@greenSignals Can we talk Japan.Nippon. Fast trains everywhere, with a "swiss clock" timing with bus (eg Horoshima Station, Shin Saporro = High Speed upgrades.. but also new maglev under construction in Shinagawa..) and besides that theres 5 projects in Nagoya alone for elevation and flyover for grade seperation.
Swiss trains run to the minute. Japanese trains run to the second. Superb country if only our Hitachi ran to the second
Only if we can mention how stable, homogenous and disciplined Japanese society is
@@vernongoodey5096 If only JR run UK rail would be happy.. Their more like the scottish approach+welsh. where there need to be a minimum sercice (eg minimum church service etc) and its so cheap.. u can go for a quick meal and a half pint in local... lol.. (spent time in Nippon but everywhere was good bus+train) or cheap town.taxi..
@@vernongoodey5096 U know Tokyo.East "4 min" So its 2 mins for a train to leave and another to occupy= ruclips.net/video/8Ge81gKqtvE/видео.html
Opposite = My Japanese GF and I got on a train to OsaksKobe.. The guard boarded the train and approached me.. i was nervous foreigner... he asked can i see your ticket... look at ticket.. where u travel to ?.. u foreigher ?.. wanna visit..? are u travelling over next 7 days in osaka area ? YES said GF.. then its cheaper to get a pass.. Stamps PASS.APPLY in back of ticket and off he goes.. Went to ticket office bough a £20 railcard and got the £2.10 deducted.. ;-)))
.ohh and evytime i present.. it was like a special guest.. Your not a local.. your a tourist.. and must admit Japan is best for upsell ;-)
Byelaw 18 should be repealed as it unfairly imposes strict liability on passengers for ticketing mistakes. If a railway allows a passenger through a ticket barrier, it has effectively accepted their presence, and it should be the railway's responsibility to deny entry if the ticket is invalid. Prosecution should focus on dishonest fare evasion, not innocent mistakes. The current system grants railways and train operating companies privileges not seen in other industries, where intent typically plays a key role in legal violations. Reform is needed to ensure passengers are not criminalized for accidental errors.
did the ticket get scanned at a barrier to get onto the platform? I am not familiar with station but wouldn't surprise me if it was ungated.
With the fare I wonder if a bit of bullying due to his age.?
Were did the passenger buying the SDS to Man Vic buy there ticket
That's what needs clarification
I worked in a railway booking office for many years and the £12 minimum has been in force a long time
What needs to happen when buying online any ticket with a yp railcard is a statement stating the times it can be used and travelling before 10am minimum £12 fare there should be a tick box to confirm you've understood. Before the ticket can be retailed
If the ticket was retailed at a station they should have been asked what time they were travelling and the restrictions in place
Finally unfortunately people do try it on I've had many times with customers trying to buy a yp single for less than the minimum £12 which applies even after the 34% discount is applied so a £15 ticket which you would pay £10 for after 10am would still cost £12 so still some discount given I can see both sides of this and Northern were well within there rights to ask for an explanation to someone who was travelling without a valid ticket the word VALID being of the utmost prevalence
Amazing how many people get prosecuted for not doing anything wrong. Of course they would not tell lies. Would they?
@@jamescollins3647 Like the sub-postmasters, you mean?
@@andrewhotston983 No smart arse not like I mean. There is no more similarity between fare dodging and prosecution than and any body else really committing a crime. Too difficult a concept for you is it?
You do the crime you do the time, the post office was not the same.
@@jamescollins3647 Other comments on here have compared Northern Rail to the Post Office, too. If you'd watched the video you'd know that it's far from certain that the traveller intended to dodge paying the extra £1.30.
@@andrewhotston983 There is no similarity to the post office or the chap in Manchester who served years in jail for a crime he did not commit. It is just fashionable now for people to compare any wrong to the post office scandal.
There is no proof that he did intend to pay the £1.30 but you assume he did. Assumptions are often wrong.
@@jamescollins3647 Giving someone a criminal record for an underpayment of £1.30 is EXACTLY the kind of official overreach that the Post Office engaged in.
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for Sam.
It is clearly noted when you buy a 16-25 railcard that it is not for use before 10am on weekdays, apart from in July and August.
I first purchased a 16-25 railcard in April 2011 as a freshly turned 16 year old and can clearly remember using it in July 2011 and being excited that the £12 minimum fare rule did not apply as I wanted to buy a cheaper than that ticket and travel earlier than 10am.
The ticketing apps when you go to a buy a ticket will show the cheapest fare valid for that specific train time. Had he bought from a ticket machine or office he would not have been able to have purchased the ticket he did.
He must've scrolled down and purchased a ticket for later in the day, maybe he did this as the week earlier the restriction would not have applied.
Anytime is just a fare type, the railcard restrictions still apply! Given £12 is not a great deal, it only affects short distance journeys - it is not meant to be used to commute to work/college/uni etc.
Northern's response was over the top, but rail fare fraud is a massive problem and when you multiply all the £1.90s across the network it adds up to a lot, which causes fare prices to rise for passengers who purchase the correct fare. Also, there could have been a history of fraud on his online ticket account, that is why he would have been reported by the conductor. These things get investigated at a very deep level.
Fares in the UK are complex and all that, and yes do need simplifying, but I feel Sam was intentionally trying to save a few quid. Not all of us were born yesterday.
Life is so complex who the hell will have the time to think that deeply about buying a ticket and thinking that £1.90 is so significant. At least Sam bought a ticket, unfortunately the railway is not efficient and in all fairness, perhaps they should scrap tickets completely. This whole situation is about throwing power around.
What annoys me is someone travelling might be unwell, have incredible life challenges, be grieving the death of someone or travelling to go to a funeral parlour, a dying love one... etc. And it's ridiculous the amount of unnecessary power and people like you giving "not much sympathy" for people who have committed insignificant things that don't affect you.
@@liltenchu527 well I had to purchase tickets for £6 whatever to go to job interviews and not use my railcard so why should I feel sorry for Sam when I could've done the same thing and had potentially faced the same problem? Instead I paid my way. Ignorance is no defence.
Wow...I bet you're fun at parties...grim@@JBTEvans
@@JBTEvans How long ago were your job interviews?
@@andrewhotston983 one was April 2018 and another in March 2020 just before lockdown. Not sure why the dates matter.
Can I just ask if the estimated economic benefit of the M6 Toll has come to fruition? That's the biggest bypass built in the West Mids which was meant to cut congestion around the Birmingham/Dudley area up to this point. The new HS2 leg will be bigger and cost more. Quite frankly the M6 Toll has done dick! One reason is that the toll charges keep going up so no one will pay it. However, I remember when it was first built and it was cheap it still didn't do anything to relieving the traffic volume then. I highly doubt the people using trucks to move their goods about the country are going to be rubbing their hands at the idea of having quicker train freight routes when your previous post showed the guy from Freightliner said that train freight costs are increasing and road costs aren't. So even with this fancy bypass and having lots of extra capacity what benefit will it give the likes of Stafford and Lichfield and the surrounding area? What will be the impact to the same area in terms interruption to travel, farming and general living whilst this thing is being built. I don't care about Manchester or the North. I live and work in the area you're itching to chop up so can you answer the questions please.
As of 2021 the twenty year estimate was that the M6 Toll had increased the local economy by £400m a year and boosted local wages by 1.4%.
@@watcherzero5256 So not quite the billions of pounds per year quoted then and the M6 around Birmingham is still a daily car park.
It relieved the traffic volume by at least 1 car when I used it. And I wasn't the only one on it.
Spelling of Eton? Tut.
Crikey a northern service that actually ran !
Having listened further, I am shocked at the suggestion of dropping the £12 minimum rule. The 16-25 railcard is not meant for students travelling for education or early career commuting. It is focused on leisure activities. The 26-30 railcard does not allow July & August to be exempt either. They have recently reduced the discount of railcards from 34% to 33.3% to generate some extra income into the railway, so there is next to no chance they are going to drop the £12 minimum fare. If anything they will just scrap being able to use it on anytime tickets of any cost which will cost people a lot more than £1.90! Yes the RDG are behind railcards now and I am surprised that was not researched. Sam should've been made an example of.
Agreed
Really? Why does the word "jobsworth" keep springing into my mind?
@@andrewhotston983 fare dodger was the one that sprang to my mind
@@andrewhotston983 Could it be your favourite answer to everybody else?
@@jamescollins3647 No. Just a reaction to someone who thinks it's reasonable to sell an Anytime ticket that you can only use at certain times!
20:20 if you take away the railcard from this, it is a valid ticket. The clause is there that says if valid ticket, pay the difference. This is not subject to interpretation. The train company won't like that because it leaves the avenue open for abuse, but I see no logical way to claim the ticket its self is invalid if that rule is on the books.
take away the railcard.... LOL that's what Sammy boy should've done the fare dodger.
28:00 disappointed by this reaction. I wonder if another passenger on the same train made the same journey but purchased the correct fare despite having a railcard is having a £1.90 refund?
If I was a passenger I would not be happy knowing somebody broke the rules and paid less, and is almost being celebrated for it rather than being punished.
What kind of message is being sent out here? Fare evasion is okay because it's an anytime ticket which is not really an anytime ticket? Missing the point that it's not the ticket, it is the railcard discount that is not permitted.
Very disappointed of this take from a rail based podcast with senior industry figures. He wasn't even close to the cut off time, 0726 is peak peak!
Maybe I should purchase a cheaper incorrect ticket the next time I travel at peak peak time and then gloat about it and make out the company is in the wrong!
The point you are missing is that the chap did not deny he had underpaid and was perfectly prepared to pay the ticket inspector the difference, buy a new ticket, or pay the penalty fare. Nobody was saying he should have been allowed to travel without consequence, nor that he should be celebrated for doing so.
@@poppyland74 well why wasn’t he prepared to buy the correct ticket in the first place?
You were the guard/conductor right??@@JBTEvans
Thanks
Thanks!
Thanks very much Alan, very kind of you.
Thanks
Thanks
Thanks so much Chris, this is incredibly kind.