Off With Their Heads! Wonderland is the Show of the Week
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
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Let's get analytical-analytical! (To the tune of "let's get physical!" Get it? No? Makes sense.)
Here's a short trailer you can watch before the listening exercise:
• Show Clips: "Wonderlan...
Wonderland
(formerly Wonderland: Alice's New Musical Adventure and Wonderland: A New Alice)
Music by Frank Wildhorn
Lyrics by Jack Murphy
Book by Jack Murphy & Gregory Boyd
✽ ✽ CHAPTER MARKERS ✽ ✽
0:00 Intro and Pre-writing Comment Prompts
4:07 Post-listen Discussion
✽ ✽ BIG WALL OF LINKS ✽ ✽
🎧 Listen to the podcast! jimandtomic.com
🐉 Or the other one oncemorewithdragons.com/
(and subscribe to my podcastmate, Jimi: goo.gl/RfLGp2)
✽ ✽ SOCIAL STUFF ✽ ✽
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If you're reading THIS comment below with, well, the stuff I told you to! Anyway, that's how I'll know you read this far. 😉
Oh, and would you click that like button? And maybe subscribe? Love you forever. 
Развлечения
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I didn't participate in the prompt bc I knew this show and the history behind it, but very fascinating to hear someone talk about it again. Sounds like you and @waitinthewings need to have a collab on this one!
As a director who needs to have a wide knowledge of musicals/shows, Show of the Week has introduced me to SO many incredible pieces of musical theater. I'm so happy to see you back, doing this show again. When we're picking our season, this series and your "Don't Do That Show, Do This Show" video are on loop. Thank you for all the work you put into these! Your thoughts have helped me with final decisions more times than I can count!
Thank you so much for coming back! I don't care much for the formula, i want to hear you talk. What i'll tell you about Wonderland is that i heard the Mad Hatter's songs dozens of times, while no one ever sings any other songs at musical cabarets or karaoke or whatever. Listening to the clips from Broadway, i didn't feel like listening to any other songs either, it would feel like a chore.
But thank you for all your context and your ideas about it, it does pique my curiosity a little bit more now.
1-Read the books
2-expect Cats
3- had this big internal rejection for it. I felt they tried to get Disney's version and fit into a pre molded princess story.
Also when Go with the flow started I screamed "It's Santana - Smooth ft. Rob Thomas from MatchBox 21!"
It's not that Wildhorn uses pop-styles that gets to me - it's that he fails to express anything new with them. Every Frank Wildhorn show has multiple songs that restate the same idea over and over. In Jekyll & Hyde it's "I love this man and I can't have him!" again and again. And in THIS show it's about six or seven variations on "Find your inner child."
This isn’t the assignment but I just need to say you are my favorite creator I have ever come across on the internet. I’ve been here for years and your content has seen me through so many chapters. So glad you’re back!
I do like how the Hatters costume to me gives “Harley Quinn but she’s Dr Who” but to me she’s probably the biggest strength but it’s probably Kate Shindle performance
I saw a slime tutorial of Wonderland when I was in undergrad and enjoyed it enough! A few clunky lyrics, but it seems like that's almost a requirement for Alice in Wonderland musical adaptations lol
I did use "I Am My Own Invention" to audition for Children of Eden in my freshman year.
Actually heard of this in your "Songs you should know from shows you haven't heard of" video. Super exciting to see you make videos again!
LOVE this musical,LOVE the book! Mad Hatter is the Villain! STILL Love this show! I don't think it needs to have a moral as You said before the original book did not. My ONLY problem was the NEW Mad Hatter as they should have just kept her the MAIN Mad Hatter. The book of the play is CRAZY and so is the original source material, so it's perfect to me! Thank You for reminding me how MUCH I love this show!
Love this passion! Having the love for the chaos I think helps a love for this show growing! I knew a dance company in my current city produced a fancier version of the show and I bet it was perfect for the wackiness and reckless imagination the show can foster.
I've heard of this show before, but I'm super excited to participate on others that are new to me! So glad to see you bring this channel back. It's so refreshing to hear your viewpoint again.
Weirdly enough, Wonderland was actually the first show I ever saw on Broadway (in it's VERY limited run!) I was probably 7 or 8 at the time, my family was taking a trip to NYC and for whatever reason my mom wanted us all to see it--as the youngest, and therefore least critical member of my family, I think I enjoyed it the most, but still remember very little of it, and I know I got pretty bored with all the mother/daughter stuff in act 2. I DO however remember being totally enthralled by Katherine Shindle's performance as the Mad Hatter, even at a young age, and I still think "I Will Prevail" is a total banger. Thanks for reminding me about this show! Very weird, very flawed, but a fun part of Broadway history nonetheless.
Mr Mash with the diagnostic assessment task:
1. I know literally nothing about this musical, but I have watched a couple of movie adaptations (the late 90s(?) version with Whoopie Goldberg is my favourite, and have read passages of the book
2. I think there's going to be some sort of twist/original take on the mad hatter, because everyone's done that
Initial reaction: sometimes a bit twee (but the source material is alice in wonderland so, like, of course), but mostly really fun to listen to. I really enjoyed the eclectic sound from song to song, and all the performances were really strong, and despite the brief genre hops it was a really cohesive sound. I think i need to watch it to get a better handle on it but that's just my problem probably, not the show's
Edit II: I have now watched the show through...means. The book is a complete mess. I don't think its failure has anything to do with it being a 'pop' show. The music is vibrant and the performances were fantastic. But the book is just a mess. I don't agree with Tommy that it's because the source material is meandering and that it therefore leant itself to a convoluted and hard-to-follow plot. I followed the plot fine - it's just that, unfortunately, the plot was not good. It reminds me of the stories my friends and I used to write in our Year 9 Maths class in high school by writing one paragraph at a time and then passing it onto the next person. There are two many ideas happening here. Okay, so Alice is dejected that her book was rejected (rhyme not intended), she's estranged from her husband, and her daughter is unhappy. I think that's a lot to base a growth story off, but it's not impossible if there's enough precision. But there wasn't any precision here. I was really thrown off that the show started with Chloe complaining about the family situation, the publisher rejection then coming out of nowhere, and then when Alice lands in Wonderland we get songs about identity and relaxing/going with the flow. Which do come back around, but none of the set up leads into them at all. It feels like there's three stories happening at once, rather than one cohesive narrative.
Having said all of that, I don't think it would be impossible to fix. I just think it would need to be fixed by someone who wasn't involved in the original writing. Someone needs to kills some darlings, and that's easier to do if they're not your darlings. I don't think you'd be able to 'edit' the existing book, I think you'd have to start from scratch. And I'm not a huge fan of writing a show around the songs, but I think it would free up an re-writes from trying to adhere to existing plot points. I think the core works - Alice was an imaginative young girl who grew into a workaholic adult whose attempt at fulfilling her dream is proving unsuccessful because she's a) doing it on the side and b) lost her sense of self. Meanwhile these internal struggles are alienating her from her husband and child. I think also we need a lot more showing rather than telling - because these plot points are in there, but we're mostly told them, not shown.
I had another point, but I've forgotten it while writing. On the whole, I stand by my reaction to the music, and I think it's the book that lets the show down. It's a fun show. It's just not that good, unfortunately. And I think one of the frustrating things about it is that there is so much potential for it to be good. The whole time I was watching it I was thinking about how it could be fixed (which did get harder the further into the story you go). It was fun though! So there is that.
I have read the original story and it's sequel. I have also seen 5 different movie adaptations including the animated disney film, a made for TV film that had martin short as the Mad Hatter and Whoopi Goldberg as the Cheshire Cat, the Tim Burton films, a strange Czech film, bot strange because it was Czech, stange because it had no external dialog and except for alice everything was various kinds of puppeteering from a taxidermied white rabbit who stored scissors inside itself, to woolen tube socks that acted like a mixture of sandworms and snakes.
Beyond that I saw a through the looking glass play adaptation when I was in elementary school in the 90s. I have also scene snippets of other film adaptations at various points but no others in their entirety. Also i saw 2 or 3 episodes of Adventures in Wonderland back when I was a kid.
The Cheshire Cat will break the fourth wall is some way.
Edit1: After watching the trailer it definitely went in a different direction than I thought. It actually reminded me thematically to the 90s Disney live action series Adventures in Wonderland, which I had initially forgotten to put on my list of previous experiences with the subject but have since corrected.
Edit2: After listeni g to the soundtrack the music sounds a bit like video game music, but in a good way. I am curious about the story but the song's lyrics are nebulous enough that I could picture far too many conflicting story ideas to accurately try to guess what the true plot is.
Edit 3: As a person who enjoys "bad" musicals, I find it unfortunate that this show didn't succeed. Considering how unusual it seemed from the trailer, I wouldn't mind seeing a local production or touring version if it were ever revived.
FREE THOUGHTS;
I do feel musicals nowadays are missing Overtures, i do like to be lead in with one. It feels more like a concept album than a musical.
Many adaptations of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland sorta make the Hatter the main character which comes across as odd because we have no reason to care for him, or shall I say her in this production which makes her and her role so much more interesting as it’s more political than just “they’re are mad”
It is definitely of it’s time as it does sorta feel like “Wicked but from Wish” which is funny to say as Six, & Juliet would prove “modern pop musicals” do work ?
Im also sorta getting We Will Rock You vibes from it
Does it suffer from the “too many villains” problem? You’ve got the Red Queen but it’s actually the Hatter and then her henchmen.
“I will Prevail” is such a good villain song bit odd to immediately start Act 2 with it,
Maybe like Bad Cinderella it’s too “out of time” , would this have worked better in 2001 than 2011?
Actual most of Act 2 sounds like 90s Disney end credits songs
I unfortunately for this experiment have already listened to Wonderland the musical but I love this format as a concept. Thoughts on it are it’s kind of a huge mess (but I kinda feel like most Wildhorn shows are) but theres still plenty in there to recommend it. Kate Shindle rocks my socks and some of the music is really good.
I’d love more book club style content in the future, I’ve found a few shows I hadn’t heard of before from your earlier content and this is a really fun way to engage with them
Skipping the prompt because I felt like I already knew too much about this show from listening to the Happy Hour podcast way back when, but simultaneously I hadn't really engaged much with the show beyond that so I figured this would be a good opportunity to dive in, and woo boy do I have thoughts.
This show has a lot of pieces that just don't really come together. Like the beginning sorta feels like the film adaptation of the Wiz - Dorthy/Alice is all grown up now, she's in the big city, her life isn't going great, and then it's a broken elevator that end up taking Alice down to Wonderland. And musically at least, "Welcome to Wonderland" channels this sort of chaotic big city vibe - but then this thread isn't really carried through. Which is a shame because I think this show is at it's best when it's being loud and chaotic and bold, that's what I want from a Wonderland adaptation.
Likewise with the Wizard of Oz "and you were there too" shtick. The White Knight ends up being Alice's estranged husband, which almost makes sense as long as you don't think too hard about how it implies that one of Alice's problems is that she should just step aside and let a big strong man take care of. But then mother-in-law is the Queen of Hearts, which doesn't work - the Queen of Hearts is like the book character, a crazy ruler with a hair trigger temper, whereas the MIL is just kinda there, helping out with Chloe, no antagonistic relationship at all. The other characters - the Caterpillar, Cheshire Cat, and White Rabbit - have no "real world" counterpart at all. And then The Mad Hatter ends up being Alice herself - but like the dark side of Alice? It just doesn't click at all.
There's also a few crumbs that stuck out to me about The Hatter being this sort of CEO- esque corporate figure - at the mad tea party they talk about her ousting the old mad hatter and The Mad Hatter song utilizes a sort of "the rat race" metaphor in a couple spots. Then in "Hail to the Queen" Alice speaks of being "from the land of credit cards and endless debt" and "If I agree is there a fee?" maybe setting up some sort contrast - but it never comes to anything.
Idk, I guess I can just see a rewrite of this that really leans into the whole Wonderland as this sort of chaotic corporate hellscape with the Mad Hatter and Queen of Hearts both vying for power. Alice is your typical hyper career focused woman who's neglecting her family, and through Wonderland learns to reconnect with her family, recapture her youth, etc, etc. It's still pretty trite and I don't know if it would actually work, but it would at least be something a little more unique than just the same old Alice we've seen a hundred times before. Either that or just drop the plot entirely and go full chaos - I honestly could see a musical adaptation of Wonderland of that channels a Cats/Chorus Line type structure where it's mostly character driven songs and spectacle with little bit of an emotional through line to pull it together.
Anyways, those are my somewhat disjointed thoughts. I agree that there's something strangely compelling about it despite the fact that it's objectively a hot mess. I'd love to her more from the people who are ride-or-die for Wonderland (I'm Cats trash myself so no judgement here)! What is it that makes it work for you?
And on a tangential note, I relisted to the podcast episode about this show while putting together my thoughts, and you guys happened to bring up the then upcoming Death Note musical. Now that that show has made it's way to London I would love to see you talk about it both on its own merits and also as an entry point into the weird world of Japanese Manga/Anime/Videogame adaption musicals.
1. Read the first book at one point as a kid, but definitely Disney first.
2. The queen yells "off with her head" at some point? Edit: although, not yelling and instead a jazzy number , I'll take the point I think.
Is this an adult moving to the city story? Also very "Wicked" feeling in spots. Oh, and shoehorned romantic subplot which I should've guessed once Alice wasn't 10.
'One Knight' has BIG 'Dancing Through Life' vibes (the first half of 'Dancing' anyways), that was the first spot where I really heard it. Darrin Ritchie has a similar vocal tone to Norbert Leo Butz in that song.
I listen to this show often!
1. Had a hyperfixation on the Alice series in elementary school and read the books a handful of times, watching each adaptation I could find.
2. Definitely skimmed the synopsis to Wildhorn's Wonderland on Wikipedia years ago and don't remember much besides the Mad Hatter being a woman and that's kinda it?
1. Alice in Wonderland is a story about a young girl named Alice who finds herself transported to a weird fantastical world, and her goal is to simply find her way back home despite everything and everyone trying to keep her there or kill her. I’ve seen a couple adaptations, primarily the Disney cartoon, but none in a long time, so I guess I only know the cliff notes, and even then I’m not super sure on the ending.
2. I think the Mad Hatter will get a big production number that will start out bouncy and fun, but in the end will be repetitive and not actually worth the stage time.
I have loved the world of Lewis Carrol since I was small.
I have seen the musical and I love Kate Shindle and that’s it. LOL.
You know, I have always wanted to be part of something like a book club, but for musicals!
1. I have never read the Alice books, nor seen the Disney movie. However, I have seen a lot of adaptations, including this one. It's actually something I feel a bit bothered about, the sheer amount of "Alice in Wonderland" type stories.
2 . I pretty much already know this show, but I don't listen to it regularly, as I'm not much of a fan of the songs, except a few. I'm going to listen to the whole thing with a open mind, and I'm expecting to find new things to like that I haven't noticed before
BTW, just from these four minutes of Intro, you sound like a great teacher! Anyone who had the chance to study with you was very lucky!
i am most familiar with the source material from a vague familiarity with both of the live action disney films, and it’s counterpart in the ABC sitcom “Once Upon a Time” and it’s spinoff “Once Upon a Time in Wonderland” - I have never seen the animated version or read the book.
i’m sort of envisioning a very like… pre-beetlejuice, even-suessical-esc colorful bombastic joyride with a large dose of that very whimsical, purple, dream-like acid-trippy energy that this universe has in my mind. That’s very vague but it’s a style.
Say what you will about Wonderland - it's one of my favourite episodes of Jim and Tomic. Sometimes "bad" art is more interesting than "good" art (subjective, but you get what I'm saying). There's more to talk about when a good show is trapped inside a bad show. I love the script-doctoring segment from that episode.
Prior knowledge of 'Alice in Wonderland'. Pretty good. I had both books (Wonderland and Looking-Glass) on casette as a kid and I listened to them a bunch. In my opinion, the books are about being a kid - trapped with a bunch of weird adults in a strange world that you can neither fully understand or control.
Like I said, I'm already familiar with the show. But if I had to make a call (trying to forget what I already know) I'd say they'd make the caterpillar a wise sage becuase adaptations KEEP doing that and I HATE it (can't remember if Wonderland does that, actually).
I think Wonderland has good music and some really interesting stagecraft. But the story is kinda messy. Maybe they should lean harder into the music/stagecraft and trim down the story a bit to turn it into a spectacle musical.
1. Read the books. Saw the Disney cartoon. Saw the live action with Carol channing. And yes I have seen the musical at the marquee. .
2. I won't call a shot since I saw the show
Before your commentary ... it was a hot mess. Some fun performances. It seemed to have been better out of town before the Broadway run
Prompt #1: I've both listened to the cast recording previously, but also have seen a slime tutorial of it. My friend almost sang "Mad Hatter" at a high school cabaret. I love this show, its flaws and all. Otherwise, my knowledge of Alice and Wonderland is just the basics of girl wanders into a fantastical world where she meets a wild cast of characters. In the end, she almost gets killed by the Queen of Hearts but ends up waking up realizing it was all a dream.
2. I've listened to this before, so I can't really predict here lol.
1. Read both books and seen a few adaptions
2. Probably borrow elements from both Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass since that is pretty standard at this point. In terms of the play itself, I’m just going to put out a wild guess that it will be some sort of nontraditional retelling maybe? The poster has the new york skyline mirrored with Alice and the Mad Hatter, so maybe they will draw some parallels there?
Could you do a video on Birds of Paradise? I think it's a great show and the opening number is so relatable for anyone who does community theatre. It also flopped.
One of the songs from Wonderland came up on my shuffle the other day. I had never heard of it, but I love Alice in Wonderland. I listened to part of the album before watching this video and now I need to go finish it. I'm high school speech coach and can imagine some of these songs working well as competition pieces.
1. I read the book in high school, but it wasn't my first exposure. But I actually do remember this musical, though I'm not sure I ever heard the whole thing. I remember the opening got reworked a lot. Kate Shindle was great as the Hatter. The leads got married and then split up in real life. One frustrating thing I remember was they changed the "Through the Looking Glass" song between the tryout and Broadway, and I liked the tryout version better, but they took it down off the internet. All I have are memories :(
2. Boy band knights
I read the original book and saw the older animated movie as a child. The one thing I think will happen is Alice will meet the mad hatter
2:48 Pre-Comment
1) I have pretty much only experienced different film and tv adaptations never the book.
2) I would guess that it uses a genre of music very atypical for Broadway shows.
Post Trailer and first song -
My one shot was wrong it references Wicked visually and has a poppier Schwartz. So so far I'm getting pop Wicked.
I'm pretty sure Kate Shindle was in this show. And shot called: the mad hatter is a character.
Assignment questions:
1) I've never watched the movie, but half-read the book when i was in elementary school but didn't really understand it. So I'm going in pretty blind. My knowledge is that a young girl goes through this weird, fever-dream fairytale adventure, and it turns out to be just a dream? or not?
2) And I expect. Or hope. That there is at least one sequence/song that is very avant garde sounding which extreme dissonance and just a very "wtf" quality to it. A theremin in a musical would sick, but I'm not giving my hopes up.
Post listen thoughts:
I liked it! At the beginning it felt very capital MT, Musical Theatre to me, but I liked the eclectic inspiration that it ended up taking from jazz to super cheesy boy band-type music. It had a lot of personality, but I wish it was just a little weirder.
Final thoughts: Maybe the issue is that with a story as odd and meandering as Alice in Wonderland, it can never be adapted to Broadway and the expectations of Broadway. I can totally see a version of this show that's an even weirder, niche, off-broadway darling, and maybe that's what the source material is better equipped for. Cuz as much as I had a good time, for me to really buy why they're selling, they need to take their 7 and turn it up to a 14 and make it as wild as humanly possible.
Pre-Show Thoughts:
1. Having read the book, if expect a lot of nonsense and not a lot of plot.
2. Given what I know about adaptations, my "called shot" is that there will be a very overwrought plot :-) oh, and really cringy lyrics about finding yourself or some ballad about "being me" - a lot of adaptations seem to think that's the point of Alice.
1 - I know nearly EVERYTHING about Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
2 - The dormouse won't get nearly enough love ...
Who does
1. I think I'd read the original book at some point, but I'm also familiar with many adaptations and parodies of it (even acting in a musical called "Alice @ Wonderland" which gave alice a cellphone).
2. Gonna make three predictions, of various boldness. A) The mad hatter and the tea party scene will be featured. B) It will completely ignore the walrus and the carpenter. C) The Cheshire Cat will be a major part of the plot rather than just a minor side character.
First Impressions: I did not like the musical style. I think the way it adapts the story is interesting and I enjoyed the visuals I saw in the clip (I love gender swapping the mad hatter!) but the music is so distractingly awful to me. Not a Wildhorn fan!
The shows failure seems to be just because it was poorly made lmao. If it was better it probably wouldve done better!
Through the looking glass is one of my favorite books! The books were my entry point but I also really love the ballet.
I really hope they have the scene where the cards are painting the roses red.
1. I know the basic plot of Alice in Wonderland from reading it as a children's book adaptation when I was a kid, and seeing different elementary school and community theatre adaptations.
2. I think the musical isn't told from Alice's point-of-view - I think another character, like the Mad Hatter, or the Cheshire Cat, will be the centre of it. Who knows? I don't! Not yet, anyway.
Me, a few days ago, looking at my subscription feed: ooh, a video on a show I haven't listened to! Better do that before watching.
Me, today, starting the video: Aw crap I broke the assignment.
ANYWAY. My experience with Alice in Wonderland is fairly minimal? The Disney movie wasn't part of the VHS collection I had growing up but I definitely got the broad strokes of the story via pop culture osmosis. I watched a let's play of an Alice Commodore 64 game on youtube, bought some super cool cheshire cat earrings because the British Library had an Alice pop up gift shop for the book's sesquicentennial when I was studying in London (they're purple with green rhinestone eyes!), read the first book in my history of children's lit class in library school, did eventually see the 1951 Disney adaptation, and watched a movie called Dreamchild in December that deals with an older Alice visiting the US in the 30s to be honored at Columbia on the 100th anniversary of Lewis Carol's birth (I watched it for a muppet podcast I listen to since the Creature Shop made the Wonderland residents she occasionally imagines). And despite these exposures to the story I've never been overly taken with it.
Listening through the songs are fine? There were several lyrical moments in One Knight that I didn't care for and having never listened to a Wildhorn show before, most of the songs didn't strike me as particularly memorable. And at one point they refer to the cheshire cat as getting spayed, which I know is easier to rhyme, but spaying is for females. That being said, the Mad Hatter's songs were the obvious standouts and I will never turn down the opportunity to hear Kate Shindle belting her face off. Story-wise (I read through the wikipedia summary before I started listening), there are some interesting things there, especially the characterization of the Mad Hatter being a shadow Alice but was surprised when I referred back to it and saw that Through the Looking Glass is the act 1 closer- it makes the show seem very top heavy, with a lot of setup and then shoving most of the actual plot and action in act 2. And I get it- Wonderland is a vast, built out world and you have a lot of characters that are seen as must-haves if you're adapting Carol's work. So the show becomes part preserving the meandering weird/nonsense encounters with character and part this is a New Twist on a Classic and we're going to Do Something with these characters.
The production design looked really cool! Fun costumes and it looked like there was some theater magic to recreate the growing/shrinking moments.
Thinking about flops makes me curious as to how this spring will shake out- there's a crazy number of musicals opening, a lot of them new shows, and obviously not all of them are going to make it.
I've read both books, seen a bunch of adaptations (1999 Hallmark one is the best in my opinion), I was in a stage play version in college and the book's genius is that there's no story arc. I would say I know it pretty well. My call... Since the books have no arc and Alice has no desire for anything, I'm going to guess they're going to add some kind of subplot/framing device at the beginning where Alice is discontented, and therefore make the story translate better to the standard book musical.
I've never heard of this musical though, so I'm excited. On with the video...
Love the hair btw...
Prompt 1: I know this show has the really fun Mad Hatter song, I think I only know that because you've mentioned it in a video before though. I've seen both Disney adaptations and I've never read the original at all, so basically I know the Disney stuff.
Prompt 2: I really hope there was a cool Queen of Hearts villain song
It wasn't as fantasy-y as I wanted it to be, I enjoyed the Mad Hatter as a character and I liked the Heroes song but I was disappointed by the Queen.
I also agree that it's too pop-y which I don't think is necessarily bad but I think it clashes with the world, particularly when you said it felt like Shrek which I wouldn't say as a compliment. I don't think the disjointed story necessarily makes an Alice in Wonderland musical doomed to fail and I would like to see it done well.
I have read Alice both in wonderland and through the looking glass many times. Even directed a production of it! Also I would call the shot that the jabberwok is some artsy moment. Maybe with shadow puppets.
I’m back. Okay. Reaction: feels like Lawrence OKeefe wanted to write a showchoir panto style version of Alice.
1. I have read the books (ages ago) seen and been in 2 adaptations of Alice in Wonderland and I have seen this show
2. I have already seen this show so I cannot call a shot.
I may be the only person who likes this show. The biggest challenge of Alice adaptations is making it “make sense” and that is a challenge every creator needs to face. But the music is exciting and fun even if it’s not always clear what the point is but when I first listened to this show in high school I don’t think I had heard a show like that.
1) I haven't read the book, but I could probably write an fairly accurate reconstruction from the shear volume of adaptations I've consumed.
2) something tells me they are gonna shoehorn in a romantic subplot for Alice (because musicals) likely with either the Mad Hatter.
1. I have consumed Alice in Wonderland via the Disney film, the first Tim Burton "remake" of it, and the video games American McGee's Alice and Alice: Madness Returns. As for the musical specifically, I know the one part of one song where I believe Alice sings "he's the MAAAAAD HATTERRRRR" and that's about it.
2. My called shot is that the Red Queen's "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" theme will definitely be turned into a song.
I really liked the score, but I felt like there was a lot of dissonance where it was trying to be deep and ended up not being about very much. I really liked the first 4 or 5 songs a LOT, but after that I sort of felt my enjoyment decrease a bit.
That’s so interesting, I was the opposite. It took me a bit to really groove with it and then the ending was where it soared for me
@@bradleygladley the last 3 songs or so definitely were great too! I think the middle area of the score was my least favorite (except Mad Hatter and I Will Prevail which are bops)
God, I love this show. For context: I was obsessed with The Electric Company (2009) and found a Wonderland bootleg because Carly Rose Sonenclar was in both, so this is deeply nostalgic. It’s just so vibrant and fun and full of entertaining characters and visuals that feel simultaneously so of the time and yet so classically Alice in Wonderland. What Wonderland reminds me of the most is actually Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat- a colorful show with definite pop inspirations that has a main style but is willing to change genre for character solos and tries to find a balance between goofy chaos and emotionally moving moments. The difference is, of course, that one stuck mostly to the source material for the plot while the other was a part of the “Alice in Wonderland but it’s (blank)” trend that sort of defines my memory of the super early 2010’s. But as aware as I am of the faults (and trust me, I am painfully aware of the faults), there is so much good in the music, the performances, and the production design that I wish it could find its own niche way of living on. Now that I think about it, that’s kinda how I feel about The Electric Company (2009) as well 😅
Great video.
You can take Tommy out of the classroom, but you can't take... the classroom out of Tommy? Is that anything? idk
1) First saw the Disney animated film as a kid, hated it, felt it was too creepy and sinister, never watched it again. Then watched the 1985 made-for-TV musical film (yes, the one where all the characters are played by adults in animal costumes) with my mum, didn't mind it but wasn't a fave. Watched Syfy's Alice series (2009) when I was in college, because my best friend was obsessed with it, and I think at some point I owned a copy of the book but I honestly can't remember if I read it.
TLDR - I remember basic stereotypes about the characters and basic plot points (if you could call them that) from the cartoon, but it's never been a story I vibed with so I don't remember much else.
2) Called shot: The Cheshire Cat is actually helpful for once.
First impression: That was fun! I liked the sound overall, I actually enjoyed hearing different musical genres every now and then. Everyone is singing very high and very loud, which got grating after about 6 songs. (But omg Kate Shindle, I love you so much.) I had the wiki page open to follow the plot as the soundtrack played, so I knew what was supposed ot be happening.
Probably because I was only listening to the soundtrack, I didn't really follow the 'remember who you are' theme of the plot, I thought it was kind of weak, but that could be because I wasn't watching the dialogue scenes in between.
1. I've read the book and the sequel--including the Annotated Alice, and I think I saw the original Disney cartoon.
2. I expect something fairy-tale-ish in a somewhat nightmarish way.
1) I have both the original animated film and the Tim Burton remake from Disney, and I actually the book for Summer Reading(?) back in school.
2) There will obviously be a huge show stopping number for the Mad Tea Party.
I only know what I've seen in the Disney animated film, which is to say not much.
I think there will be some recontextualization of a villian, a la Wicked
I actually have read both Alice and Wonderland and Alice through the Looking Glass (and what she found there). While I saw the Disney movie, my favorite was a straight theatre version in the 1980's. I expect some use of the poetry in the books as lyrics. Though from that trailer, did I see a take on You got trouble from the Music Man?
I don't think it did well. It sounds like it's from the 2000s. And I'm not sure it hit enough of the familiar beats that audiences would expect. It would not be in the same vein as the Tim Burton movies, or the take from The Looking Glass Wars YA novels. Novelty is good, but stray too far from the familiar and people will not like it.
I had very much listened this show previously so I didn't play along BUT I would like to propose that you take the time to do the same thing with the national theatre's "Wonder.land" because I think it is the pinnacle of Alice musicals that try to do something new with the material and just can't figure out how to get there. There is a cast album and I think a proshot floating around the internet??
I’m familiar with this show, because I have used one of the songs with my youth theater. This Alice Wonderland is I believe about the adult Aleece, or Aleece’s daughter going to Wonderland and the Mad Hatter is trying to be the queen. I know the music is excellent, the story is lacking.
1)I know quite a bit about Alice in Wonderland, stemming from the original books. I'm...lukewarm on it, TBH. I've never heard the musical
2) "OFF WITH HER HEAD" seems like an obvious line to be sung. 😂
Opening a comment;
I know very little about Alice in Wonderland, never saw or read a thing (in full).
I think the mad hatter song is gonna be 100% disappointing vs the Disney mad hatter song.
I was wrong! It sounds very grand, somewhat alternative and I think it did really well now I’ve heard the songs :)
1) first exposure was probably the Disney movie but tbh I remember very little of that. I have read the books, but the version of the story that probably sticks out most in my mind is the 80s Czech film "Alice" directed by Jan Svankmajer. I'll also point to the 2013 anime Kyousogiga, which isn't really an adaptation but vaguely takes some of the book's images and motifs and completely makes its own weird and wonderful thing from it.
2) Calling that wonderland in the musical will be some kind of allegory FOR something, rather than the "nothing but also everything" absurdist nature of the book's setting. Probably mental health or trauma or something like that, because that's usually where people go when reinterpreting this story.
EDIT: So, okay, just listening to the cast recording... I think it did pretty good at what it was trying to do. But I wish what it was trying to do was a little more interesting? I was right about the show being an allegory, and trauma having something to do with it. I guess where it disappoints me, despite many of the songs being enjoyable in a light, silly sort of way, is it takes the sheer play and surrealism the source invites, and turns it into something banal and easily comprehended in a psychological sense. C'mon, make it weird, be more daring, make me question if up is down and if I'm big or small!
EDIT EDIT: Okay, so, the fact that it did badly, and the way in which it did badly, does actually give context to what I personally didn't like about it. Because it does feel focus tested, it does seem like a bunch of people prodded it with sticks and tried to determine, "this is about family, no wait, it's about finding your inner child, no wait it's about self-confidence" and really get at the HEART of what it is as if inserting one could blunt force a way to success. Even without knowing, I could sense the amount of cooks in the kitchen and there were too dang many. And that kind of gets at the "pop" criticism, because I find when people use that word as a criticism, what they really mean is "artificial" or "manufactured" and though Wonderland did have good parts, it did feel artificial and manufactured, and that to me is the unforgiveable sin.
Called shot... "snicker snack" is makes it into a lyric
I hate it. It feels like the most lazy paint by numbers musical for tourists. I hate the 90s boy band references. I hate the wicked rip off vibes. I hate that the family gets back together. I hate the Lewis Carol cameo. Thanks, I hate it.
I watched a slime tutorial for context. 10 minutes in I put it on 1.25 speed
I like your crystals.
1: I skimmed the book and I've seen so many adaptations that I guess it sort of osmosed into me. In particular I watched too much of that weird live-action show on the Disney Channel. When I went to New York for a zine fair, I saw ads for this show in Times Square. I remember thinking it looked bad.
2: I have a feeling it's going to be very on-the-nose. It's going to lack the confidence to be open to interpretation like the original, so instead it's going to get painfully specific about what it's trying to say.
Thoughts after hearing the soundtrack: It feels like this show was written about twelve years too late. It was exactly like having a fever dream while leaving the radio on in 1998. I was not expecting to literally hear Smooth by Santana featuring Rob Thomas. A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
Omg thank you so much for naming the song - it was driving me nuts what it was reminding me of!
My experience with Alice in Wonderland was through the Tim Burton films and then I knew about the book later on and what I think would be in Wonderland is the Red Queen getting a villain song ala Poor Unfortunate Souls,
Edit: As a writer I kinda understand Alice’s story and battling your inner demons! Overall I thought it was a pretty entertaining record, I loved it!
When a show doesn’t succeed it’s always to me a mark of wrong place wrong time, so if they kept on reworking the script before it hit Broadway it could’ve been a smash hit, not saying that we should have waited for it to come to Broadway for very long, but I think as a piece of theater it’s entertaining but is it marketable? I don’t know, maybe if there was a big splashy revival with a great marketing team (*cough* Katherine Quinn’s And That’s Showbiz *cough*) could sell it well enough to make people tickets! When I looked at photos of Kate Shindle’s costumes in the original production, I really thought I stepped into a fever dream! There were that good! NEED A REVIVAL STAT!
I sang Home from this musical for a class.
Disney was probably my first introduction to the story but I have read the books and watched all kind of adaptations.
I can't make a call because I heard this recording before. Sy-Fy channel did a mini series Alice that came out around the same time, so I was primed for this.
But I will say the recording hides the quipyness of the live version. My pick for major drawback is the "kid that talks like an adult (from the 90s)". Kids that are written as adults tend to be a turn off in any media.
-The version I always think of is the live-action made for TV one. I’ve never fully seen the animated one I don’t think. STACKED cast including Whoopi Goldberg, Martin Short, and Gene Wilder. I watched it for the first time alone at home in the middle of the day on a tape that recorded it from TV (so with commercials).
-I know the Max Hatter song (very Frank Wildhorn key signature and melody) and that Jose Llana plays El Gatto? I’m guessing there will be lots of modernish updates to make it half real world feeling. Perhaps a lot of characters that the Disney version may not have like the old White Knight. Off to listening land!
After:
-really liked it; the relationship with imagination and mourning that part of childhood/how you can choose to live those stories from childhood AS a grown up was really fabulous. I am shocked how much I liked those themes, but from reading the synopsis, it seems a bit overly complicated in contrast to the simple yet deep themes I liked. Also shocked I called it with the White Knight and VERY modern take.
Free Write:
I think I knew it flopped, and I can see why I suppose. The plot is confusing, the music is not something that was really popular at that time, I think there was a greater interest in modernized classic sounds ie Gentleman’s Guide. There’s also a shred of Seussical with the sacrin love of childhood and peppering it with bombastic love for New York, New York (I love Seussical, but Broadway certainly didn’t is my point). However, it really is a shame to me it floundered so much because I think the music has legs! Melodically and tonally, a lot worked for me. Beyond that, I think there was a story I could hear just from the music with no plot knowledge about mourning childhood imagination. She can only imagine these crazy characters as being so near to her own reality and NY life. It’s a meta take, but the wondrous world being so tethered to the real world was very adult. We can lose our wild sense of wonder as we age and must rely on what we know. However, we can always just freely give in to that kid sense and be silly and creative! We can always be the hero of our story when we grow up because we have more agency! I think the “why now” can come from the fledgling digital era that we were upon with the iPhone and social media gaining wider traction. That period (and exponentially now), there was a sense of pressure to grow up/think forward quicker but also wanting to hold on to childhood longer. I think this music hypothesized that we can always be grown-up kids. “Once More I Can See” and beyond in the score gave me that sense the best. Maybe I’m reading far too much into this, but I think that theming was surprising and beautifully done. In short, I liked it and it’s a shame it was cluttered because there’s something unique in there.
Saw it on broadway and actually enjoyed it, though a little chaotic.
I read both Alice books when I was quite young (7-8 years old) and fell in love with both of them. This musical adaption is interesting, but all the singers belt and shout in the now current Broadway style. That's impressive, but grows tiring after several numbers. I'd like more variety in the composition and a far more coherent book.
Alright, preconceived notions:
Back in ye olden days, I was obsessed with fairytales and adaptation. So I definitely read Alice in Wonderland at least one, maybe twice, wrote a paper comparing it to Peter Pan, and watched about a bunch of adaptations. I never directly interacted with this musical but I definitely read the Wikipedia summary and have a vague memory of the tone and some of the plot twists.
That said: my called shot being something I don’t remember from the summary…… hm. I think the King of Hearts will be the same old coward he always is but I feel like there’ll be some weird attempt at using him to make a point about gender which will land horribly.
My prior knowledge includes having read the original book multiple times, starting as a kid as well as having seen more than one film adaptation (including the Disney cartoon) and I think a non-musical theatre adaptation. I have also heard a couple of songs from the show on the SiriusXM On Broadway channel. Because of all of that, I am expecting it to be a nontraditional version of the story, with probably some gender-swapped and multicultural casting.
After watching the trailer, I see that I was right about it being nontraditional, but it appears to be even more nontraditional than I had imagined. That could go either way, but it’s quite possible this version takes things a bit too far out of the norm in a way that Lewis Carroll could never have imagined.
Parting thoughts: I think it might well be that the reason it was unsuccessful was that the story ended up not making a great deal of sense; if you can’t follow, what happens, you’re gonna lose people. I also wonder if it might be a case of not needing at another version of “Alice,” or at least not this version of it.
That’s a super true; after the Burton version being so saturated everywhere in 2010, the public could have been Aliced out
1) Alice in Wonderland is one of my favorite books and I've read it many times.
2) I predict there will be a tea party. Every version seems to include this, whatever else they change.
Edit: Oof, this one was not my style at all. I will admit I ended up skimming through it, listening to bits of songs and then moving on. It's just not for me. I think when someone criticizes a show for sounding like "a bunch of pop songs" that maybe what they mean is that the songs don't feel integral to the show, that it doesn't sound woven together and cohesive. Since I didn't listen to the show straight through I can't really say whether I would have that opinion of this show in particular. But I suspect that's what that complaint really means.
1. I have read the book, seen the animated Disney movie, probably seen a few scenes from the Tim Burton film, watched and listened to Duncan Sheik and Steven Sater's Alice by Heart, and watched a hilarious musical *adult film* from the 70s themed around Alice in Wonderland. I have also listened to the Jim and Tomic episode on this show like, 25 times because it's a favourite.
2. This feels unfair to do because even though I've never actually seen or listened to this show I've done a decent amount of research into it but my prediction is that there will be some theme around the Queen of Hearts and losing one's head.
3. Gut reaction: Why are there like, 3 final numbers. I think there is too much in the show that is unnecessary and I feel like there could be a good show in here if there was a lot more cutting of the fluff to give space for the promising places to grow.
I will prevail is the song I know
Not much about the source material but the made hatter would be the most obvious thing
1. Just reread Alice in wonderland but know Nothing about the musical!
2. If there isn’t a caucus race song I’m rioting
Update: that was. Unexpected? I think I’m about as lost as Alice.
Further edit: I cannot imagine how this show WOULD have succeeded with the American concept of Alice being so heavily Disney-influenced.
1. I’ve read the original Alice’s Adventures In Wonderland book, seen the disney versions and listened to this musical a while back. I remember it being a sort of spin off in the vein of Hook about the child of Alice & how their family conflict forces them both to journey through Wonderland in search of one another
2. The ending will leave the reality of Wonderland ambiguous
3. The music’s hype af. The story seems pretty cliche - seems to be a very basic Hook remake but seemingly without some of that heart. Were there like 3 finales cause it felt like any of the last 3 songs could have been the finale
4. To be fair, I think theatre should always be temporary, though it’s sad when art is unable to recoup its costs. It always confuses and frustrates me when professionals bring out unintentionally incoherent work, cause I like to think if you’re going to bring a piece of work to such a public sphere as Broadway, you should have some deeper care or at least clear intention as to what you want to create and showcase to the world, but yano the music is fun and I did legitimately want to see the UK tour when it was on cause it sounded pretty cool so maybe that’s something
1. My prior knowledge is limited to some basic knowledge of the Disney movie.
2. The tea party the Mad Hatter holds?
Edit: It has a more contemporary sound than I usually like in theatre. I like music that feels necessitated by the setting or story, like Pacific Overtures.
A note on my musical tastes: I love all genres of music in some way, from jazz, Indonesian Gamelan, rap, country. However, I like when the music in a score or film soundtrack challenges the listener's notion of how music should sound. We, in America, are all familiar with pop, classical, and jazz music, to some degree. However, many Americans have never heard much traditional music or period music. I would love to see more musicals that try to recreate the traditional sounds of their settings.
I have been following this musical for the longest now. I saw the world premiere at the Straz Center in Tampa back in 2009, while not perfect I fully enjoyed it. I think the problem was they wanted to create a story while following the episodic elements of the book with that production. Then I saw the Pre Broadway engagement and that created a potential solid story finally HOWEVER the Straz was very much involved with that production and I felt they completely rush it for the sake of going to Broadway and while I didn't seen it in person, I was shocked at the changes they made for Broadway. I personally considered it to be the worst production because all the magic and the potential they brought in Tampa and Houston was now gone. As for the UK tour I admire SOME of the changes but still I felt it was a glorified panto show, that's the vibes I got from it. Plus I think the UK producer was a scumbag (not his first time with drama on a show). I know there was a Japanese production and NYU and BYU production but I didn't seen them. BUT I did saw the regional premiere at Tuacahn in 2022 and that was amazing the plot structure is getting there! Act Two was a little fizzle still but still good and they brought back the elements from the 2011 Pre Broadway version that worked and added new changes that could potentially be promising in the future. I don't see a major revival BUT I could see this doing well in regional and high school productions and perhaps a national tour. I adore this show overall it's not perfect but if they didn't completely alter for NYC then maybe it could've ran longer (not too long but more than a month)
I’m cheating because I do know this show thanks to the podcast and I do actually really enjoy it but maybe like most Brits I mostly see it as a Panto than a traditional “musical”. But I do feel it might have been Happy Hour or someone said “it’s too much a musical to be a panto but not enough of a panto to be a full panto”
As a huge Alice fan, I remember watching a bootleg of the show on RUclips.
The music is catchy and even beautiful at times but the book is garbage.
Frank Wildhorn has great success in Germany and Korea but for whatever reason his works never really translate well on broadway. If you really want to do a show people won't really know I think Mystery of Edwin Drood would be good. Or another Wildhorn show like The Civil War or Count of Monty Cristo.
I believe that the Alice stories can be interpreted either as 'simple' surrealism or to convey deeper meanings and that, as such, they are especially difficult to stage successfully. This production seems, to me at least, to be a facile attempt to manipulate the story of Alice in Wonderland into a standard Broadway show format and modern musical style without any innovative elements, rather than adapting the standard musical template to fit the classic but unique story. Thus, from the limited exposure here, I feel the approach was entirely the wrong way around. To me, the core elements of the book itself remain quite disturbing in many ways (and these are not, I must add, of the possibly salacious nature that might first come to mind nowadays), yet the potentially 'hidden' themes in the book didn't seem to be explored adequately in the musical adaptation. Dodgson was a brilliant mathematician but was also eminently comfortable inventing truly bizarre tales for his colleagues' children. It is this dichotomy that forms the basis of our enduring fascination with the Alice stories - were they really just uncomplicated stories plucked from Dodgson's relaxed mind to entertain colleagues' children on sunny afternoons in Oxford, or did they reflect some more profound meaning released from Dodgson's usually constrained thought processes, freed from the purely logical considerations of physical science? This 'other worldliness' was successfully explored, to some extent at least, in the Royal Ballet 2017 production of 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland', yet appears untouched here.
I am a huge Wildhorn fan. Best ballad writer in the history of Broadway. Wonderland probably my least favorite show of his. Love the songs invividually but somehow do not work for me as a whole. I perform campy drag for AIDS benfits here in Indy. I put the two queen songs "Hail the Queen" and " Off with their Heads" together. I carry bloody doll heads in a bag and toss them in the audience during "Off with their Heads " Also hit them with a tennis raquet. " One Night" is a great song. And a terrible show can still have a brilliant score. Example: " Carrie" Never though of Wildhorns music as Pop.