On the other hand, one could say bees go to great lengths (literally) to build their hives away from the ground. And you've just gone ahead and brought them together, rather unnaturally. Just food for thought.
You have a 'new'sort of mind set. but I differ from some of what your saying in that the wild hives I've researched all sterilized their interiors with propolis , some to a depth of 1/4-3/8's of an inch thick on their ground side of their hive. This 'Tower of Honey' was built on top of a wood pile . The brood area was under the wood pile just above the ground which they coated and made into plastic no less then 1/4 inch thick. Think about how we have imitated honeybees in our world where things were needing to be sterilized, like walking into an E.R. or Surgery Room. There's a pan to walk your shoe through of a cleaner to keep the germs out. This in imitation of nature, that of the honeybees and their use of propolis to keep their hives 'Sterile'. Once honeybees are invaded by Varroa mites to the point that they can't clear out the dead and dying , the hive become septic and they than Abscond in a swarm to try to save the queen. Please don't stop your research but please don't teach 'new bees' things like misaligned thoughts. there is far to many 'truths to Bee learned' . Enough truths to studying for a life time and never reach a point of ever knowing enough or knowing it all.
So you want to recreate nature to be natural ? Was the stuff in the box found in a natural box? Or you taking it out of nature and putting it in a different setting? So if the mold or fungi was in a set condition and you change it? I guess?
Interesting. This would make more sense to me if bees created their hives on the ground or in decayed piles of wood. But they don't usually. The build in dry enclosed spaces like tree hollows, wall hollows, and in clement climates, under eaves and in tree crotches. None of those locations seem to be the same as this. Also bees coat with propolis most everything inside a hive, so even if the tree hollow had some detritus at the bottom, I would expect the bees to encase it pretty quickly.
I think he should fill the box completely with debris so the natural bugs have a nice place to live. Let the bees go find what they want (like the wall of a house).
Fascinating, thank you. I wonder though: aren't you just placing an ecosystem into a relatively sterile environment wherein the absence of rain, light, exposure to the wider natural environment, will quickly render it just as sterile as the rest of the hive?
In some ways, yes, and this is the problem I have been having using this idea with horizontal top bar hives, which are some distance off the ground. It still does a good job of providing low level insulation and regulating airflow, but it does not seem to be sustainable in the sense of being completely self-regulating - drying out is the big problem. I am now testing a version of the eco floor designed for vertical hives. Watch this space!
Thank you for the detail and information on how to make a ecological hive. Some beekeepers give honeybees hell... We have to constructed more hives components and its worthwhile considering alternatives.
Mmmm.... There's some interesting thought behind this, but I'm not on board with it. It views all interactions with humans and bees as 'unnatural' on some level, and if we're going that route we might as well start killing our bees off completely every time we harvest their honey. After all, that's a more natural interaction. Ultimately, I think it's best to ask "what's the end goal and how does this get to that point". Mutualism is probably an under-explored topic in the practice of beekeeping, but how to go about that without potentially harming our bees or ourselves is also important. This is effectively introducing random fungi, insects, and bacteria into a hive to find out the end result.
tzkelley Tempting, but I'm not sure that bees do well so close to the ground. I am thinking of building a stand from old tyres and filling that with wood chips.
Anything that makes us think about the subject is good because even if this idea isn't the answer it may make someone else think a different way and then their views will influence others. All ideas influence someone else to think as they say "Outside the box", a phrase I hate but in the context a good thing.
would this not encourage hive beatles? I put a cedar shaving "blanket" in a narrow frame at the top of my hive in the winter as extra insulation. Hadn't thought of the floor.
+ljbobb1 I don't know about encourage, but certainly would give them more places to hide along with wax moth larvae. I think this dudes in Aussie or New Zeland maybe. He clearly doesn't have them cause I would think he'd have a screened bottom board
+Zak White This dude is in England, as it happens. Wax moth larvae are not going to live long on the floor, as they would have no food and would likely be attacked by earwigs. We don't have SHB, but they are vulnerable in their larval stage and again would provide extra protein for earwigs and other predators.
Please do keep us posted on the progress of this hive. There's local interest in the eco-floor approach at least in the beekeeping community in Central Oregon in the US.
What was in the bottom of the hive before you placed the first sticks? Partially or completely open? I can see light coming through. Also, can you tell me the name of the mite you mentioned is a predator of the varroa?
That hive had a course mesh in the bottom - something like chicken wire. These days, I use a smaller mesh, to stop wasps sneaking in. The predatory mite is Stratiolelaps scimitus - see www.evergreengrowers.com/stratiolaelaps-scimitus-womersley-hypoaspis.html
It's possible. I don't routinely add them, but there is also tannic acid in oak bark, which does often find its way into the mix. Oyster mushrooms produce oxalic acid as they grow, so that's another line of enquiry.
@@josephwoodall832 yes, but the big difficulty with all bee research is multiple variables: no two colonies are identical. It means that you have to have many hives with sister queens, in groups, in identical conditions, and it's very difficult to draw firm conclusions.
@@BarefootBeekeeper I agree but one could do a preliminary study with just a few hives to see if it's worth further research sister queens would be needed but even just two hives could give you a clue about the value of such a study in only one year.
About to try the Eco-floor with a top bar hive. I am in Ireland. The weather is very dry at the moment. Is there any benefit from wetting the bark and moss as I place them in the Eco-Floor, or better leave them dry? And what materials are you using in your current Eco-floors? Thank you!
do you seriously believe that slugs evolved next to bees? by that logic, bees and slugs should be best mates. just because one species lives in the same habitat as another one does, shouldnt imply that they live together in some sort of symbiotic relationship.
Slugs, snails, beetles, mites, fungi, moulds, yeasts, mosses and bacteria all evolved together. That doesn't mean they are "best mates", simply that they have learned to tolerate each other, but for sure there are many unsuspected symbiotic relationships we currently know nothing about.
+95761395A Zebra genetics were improved by weak strains being culled by lions. Only survivors breed and pass on their genes: that's how evolution works.
im not sure you actualy understand how evolution works in particular. its true that if you are dead, the chance of passing on any genetic information is fairly slim, but thats the same as saying if you break later you will be fast for longer. evolution favours adaptation. adaptation can mean a huge variety of things. some species strategy is laying tens of thousands of eggs. another species strategy is hiding 1 egg and it goes on and on and on. you dont put a lion next to a zebra and cross your fingers, hoping genetics will happen. i enjoy your content about bees but slugs are not going to cull the weak strains out of your beehives :)
+Zishy Evolution works by killing off that which is poorly adapted to current conditions, including climate, diseases and predators. The slow are caught and eaten: the fast escape and reproduce.
Sir, How do you help the bees with Mite and Beetles that kill the hives? (I do not want to have to ever resort to using the quack created ideas. (such as putting poisons to Borax in the hive) All help is appreciated. Thank you Catherine Boydston Coweta, Ok USA
@@BarefootBeekeeper sounds interesting. I am in South East Queensland Australia. I am close to just starting out, trying to catch a swarm from a 3 year old hive in a tree up the paddock. I want to use a Top Bar hive. I hope we can see how your hives continue. Thank you for your time.
Phil Chandler - Barefoot Beekeeper Hi Phil. Just found your site and listened to your video. An interesting concept. With 2-3 years having past what are the results?
Thank you for this video Phil. My husband and I are beginners bee keepers/helpers/setwards. I just finished your online course through "learning with experts." I am also interested in the work that Paul Stamets is doing with fungi and bees. I imagine that the earth floor of the hive could support fungi as well, which would perhaps be an added benefit for the bees. Any thoughts on that?
this type of hives calls "lounger" in Russia. most of beekipers from villages use this type of hives as most traditional frame hive. it contain 16-32 Dadan frames with 1-2 extra housings on top for 1/2 Dadan frame.
Interesting new perspective. Reminds me of the "Hugelkultur" concept in permaculture except with a different objective. Although my instincts tell me this might be more conducive to some of the pests we already battle (varroa, small hive beetles, etc.), congrats for thinking "outside the same old box" and willing to experiment. It should be interesting either way and a new experience that may provide valuable new insight.
Bees get in touch with those things on their travels. No need for us to overexpose them to it. It's not like my dog living in my house wants anything to do with spiders and snakes on a daily basis. It likes to dig after moles. Should I introduce moles into my house, because of my dog. Why not just chase my dog back into the wild and get it over and done with.
Gabriel "Overexpose" implies an amount that could be harmful, for which there is no data, since AFAIK nobody has done the research. In fact, bees are unlikely to come into contact with soil-dwelling mites while visiting flowers. They would be much more likely to do so in a tree cavity, but since beekeepers tend to put them in sterile boxes, that is no longer the case.
I think the initial exposure should still provide a beneficial immune response...and possibly some exposure to pests/ parasites of organisms harmful to the colony, such as Verroa....
Having had a couple of occurrences of bees coating the surface of the Eco-floor with propolis, I am re-thinking this idea. A possible alternative floor material is charcoal, with which I will be experimenting this year (2017). I also expect to fit electronic monitoring sensors and data loggers to record the bees' interaction with the floor material. Charcoal is a material commonly found in tree cavities that have been caused by lightning strikes and so should be familiar to bees. Charring of the insides and outsides of hives is common practice in Japan.
I'm very glad to see you've made this discovery, and were honest enough to post about it here. While watching the video, I was thinking to myself that the hives in trees, (where most of them are) would not have all kinds of bits of tree branches, leaves, dirt, etc just beneath them, much less on top of them. They always seal off their cone areas to keep such things out. I was going to post my feelings, and was scrolling down to see if anyone else had posted the same feelings as I had when coming across this. Again, glad to see this. Thanks.
I'm not sure that the bees coating the floor in propolis would be a negative thing. A lot of it could just be managing the airflow through the hive, as there aren't many screened bottoms in hives bees choose for themselves in nature. ;) Some studies have suggested that the amount of propolis in a hive also has a correlation to the hive's overall resistance to disease. If true, I would think that having a whole floor covered in it would be a good thing.
I must admit this makes sense the bees will regulate their environment and I think the use of wood, leaves and soil as an alternative the a screened bottom board is a brilliant idea. As the wood, leaves and soil creates its own ecosystem a bit like the floor of a cave underneath bats, great idea.
Wild bees will propolis the whole of their tree cavity. It is though that this is to "sterilise" their environment. I think I got this from by Tom Seeley in some BBKA lectures on wild bees. Honey Bees in the Wild - PART 2 on youtube.
Although an over-abundance of propolis may be an inconvenience for the beekeeper in working a hive, I would think it would be a great thing for the bees. Considering its health benefits, the more propolis, the better!
The only research is that undertaken by beekeepers all over the world who are trying out ideas like this. As nothing is likely to be patentable, corporates are unlikely to be interesting in funding 'real' research, so it is up to us to find our own solutions.
I made an ecofloor hive stand for my national hive last year based on Phil's ideas for ecofloors for kTBH. I made a four sided box box with 100mm wide 20 mm thick wood, put 10mm mesh underneath and a leg on each corner. I filled it with woodchips and placed aluminium 2mm craft mesh on top. I used this so it will roll back and I can "top up" the woodchips. It isn't entirely essential but ensures the bees don't build down from the frame bottom into the ecofloor. I have successfully overwintered a very small colony in this hive.
I wanted to write a paper for my beekeeping class about symbiotic or mutual relationships with bees and other insects. There little to no data being done about this subject. Thank you so much for this video and its ecological potential!
You're welcome. Please let me know when I can read it. You might also like to take a look at the work of Paul Stamets on the relationship between bees and fungi. There is an awful lot we know nothing about yet.
What many of the comments are addressing is the adaptability and evolution of a species to the environment. What Philip is doing is more about addressing the sterile nature of modern beekeeping and the hives we use. Few things live in a sterile environment or monoculture and this includes humans. Beekeepers (and their bees) by and large are on the front lines of environmental issues since they are directly impacted in a very costly manner. If you understand "certified organic" produce and what it takes to achieve that standard, just go look for certified organic honey.. it doesn't exist because the whole of human activity has compromised the natural environment with pesticides, herbicides and pollution that ends up in the honey.
MR PC: YOU FORCED US TO THINK IN A WAY I HOPE NOBODY ELSE DID THIS BEFORE. .. I THING TO REDUCE THE MOISTURE WE CAN ADD SOME CHARCOAL TO THE BIOMIX. PLEASE KEEP US POSTED WITH THE RESULT. THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN FOR YOUR INNOVATIVE THINKING. MAJID
Amazed by some of the responses to one experienced beekeeper's experiment in one hive. The level of vitriol seems bizarre, unless of course the comments are from people who've tried the idea themselves..? Anyway, I'll be interested to see how the hive works out long term.
That will make a lovely landing pad for the Varroa mites who should fall on the ground instead. We live next to bees should we move in the box too, how about my rabbit. LoL, what next. All pseudo mumbo jumbo science, lots of naive people out there !!! For expert TBH advice without the nonsense go to Michael Bush or Les Crowder they know what they are talking about, Always look at your videos when I need a laugh !
A Vatar: Why the negativity? People everywhere are investigating novel ways to address the problems currently facing honey bees. So there's one beekeeper trying to think more broadly about a complete "hive ecosystem" rather than using insecticides inside a box full of insects. Does Varroa have a predator like Stratiolaelaps? If so, what might it take to help that predator thrive inside a hive? That seems like a very meaningful question even if it ends up being a dead end. I say good on him. Better this than the nearly dogmatic and uniform thinking of the last 120 years of beekeeping that has been conjoined with the aggressive commoditization of honey. Those forces have conspired to generate gross mistakes that have introduced invasive viruses and pests in the name of increased honey production..... decimating Apis Mellifera around the globe. Then when someone suggests something outside the existing practices they get shot down. In other words, "Let us keep doing what we've been doing e.g. engaging in a chemical arms race with increasingly resistant pests." That does not sound like wisdom to me I guess. Some of us feel, as a result, that maybe the experts have had their say and it's time to let some creativity in. Applause for Mr. Chandler for thinking in novel ways even if its a bust. Perhaps if we have a million more just like him we'd have millions of experiments being run. Maybe then one of them might produce something important. What's the harm? Dirt in the bottom of a hive? So what. The loss of some bees? Well....its seems we already have that.
You sound like an elitist beek who can't think outside of the box. Tunnel vision. Think about the mites getting eaten up so they can't reproduce and eco floors eliminating the V problem around the world. All it takes is the right type of eco floor and the right kind of "companioning" to have living entities working for us to keep the bees healthier. Ever heard of companion planting or polyculture? Certainly it would be close minded to consider it impossible for bees to have allies. YES they have enemies - that we are aware, but thus they must also have allies. If we supply them with the things that boost them like natural resources whole materials, and good companions they can repopulate earth. We need everyones help on this, even yours beek.
Hello Philip I sure interested in seeing how this turn out I am just starting in the bees and love to learn new way to succeed in anything we do. Please up date us. I see Dewey Sanchez had a hive for one season and a small one interesting to say the least so let hear from you soon
Great video Philip... I've been looking for something on this topic for ages and like magic, it's here tonight :) Lot's of harsh people out there, tuff audience. I was thinking further about evolution and have another perspective to add, maybe its in there already, I just skimmed after a few posts. But I was thinking about the relationship of ants and Peony's, my favorite garden perennial. This is plain, simple and undeniable proof of natural evolution. One thing needs the other for health and survival. The Peony's sent calls to the ants, the ants journey up the stems to collect the sweet nectar. The Peony will not flower without the ant and the ant has become partly reliant on the Peony's nectar; it's a wonder I've observed since early childhood... Why are those beautiful flowers always so full of ants I pondered? So there, I have absolute faith that there are organisms which are aligned with the bees. It is man who has not learned to balance 'science' with nature. One extreme or the other is dangerous and they in fact need each other to be perfect. I was also thinking about those slugs, I bet they keep things nice and humid in addition to aiding in the micro climate of an eco floor. If one can achieve optimal humidity in the hive, it is proven to prevent chalk brood. Slugs are a great ingredient in a biological stew. Not only that, the acidic environment of the decomposition is the very thing that kills off those Varroa. I made a provision for an eco floor in my hive this spring. Thanks.
I'm occasionally amused and baffled by what we come to accept as "normal" and the ways some react when the accepted norm is violated. In this case housing bees in an unnatural sterile box and selecting queens for one or two preferred attributes (docility, brood build up, or honey production etc) to the exclusion of other attributes like robustness or pest resistance.....all culminating in a point where the species has become weakened and cannot survive without regular human intervention & the repeated introduction of toxic chemicals and acids into the hive. This has become the "accepted norm". This is how how you bee keep nowadays.....it's simply "how it's done". When looked at objectively & in retrospect this all seems like a hair brained plan. Weaken the bees to a point where you need to dose them with chemical strips you dare not touch with your bare fingers and which, if applied carelessly, renders the honey unfit for human consumption and stands a good chance of producing treatment resistant super-pests. And this is how it's done now. Period. Deviate from these accepted norms and you get what Phil Chandler has gotten from a few comments here: Cat calls from the bleachers and howls from the gallery. "Blasphemer!! Twigs, punky wood, and leaf litter have NO PLACE inside a bee hive don't you know??!! Never mind the natural hollows of trees where these things exist in abundance.....bees have only ever made their homes inside sterile boxes such as those one may acquire via mail order don't you know??!! Why just look inside the latest polystyrene Langstroth! You'll find no leaf litter or fungus there!! Begone Heritic!!! Trouble us no more with your silly notions of "ecosystems" and "symbiotic relationships" from the wild!!!" Okay sure, maybe Phil's Eco Floor produces no favorable results.....and he's already admitted he's had at least one hive cover the whole thing in propolis. But is it any more hair brained than forcing bees into a molded plastic container and requiring them to build comb on pre-fabricated foundation? Is it any more hair brained than placing toxic insecticides between frames in an effort to kill some little insects without killing the bigger insects? Okay yeah.....maybe apis mellifera has become the insect world's equivalent of the milking cow.....requiring frequent and regular human intervention to survive. But I still can't find it in me to criticize Phil Chandler for thinking creatively and cutting against the grains that have led apis mellifera to this place. Good on you Phil!!! Would that there were a million more of you rather then the millions cleaving to the accepted norm.
This video shows Paul Stamets' researching along similar lines, with a more scientific and focused approach. Watch the last 15 mins or so for the bee research ruclips.net/video/P3oFzGFJ_UQ/видео.html
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you have no clue about it.
On the other hand, one could say bees go to great lengths (literally) to build their hives away from the ground. And you've just gone ahead and brought them together, rather unnaturally. Just food for thought.
The eco-floor is intended to be an analogue of the inside of a tree hollow, formed by rotting wood.
@@BarefootBeekeeperI doubt it has any advantages over an open bottom, but maybe! I've never had a top bar hive or whatever.
As the roof is a wood chips and a sieve heavy rain is no a problem for the bees?
You have a 'new'sort of mind set. but I differ from some of what your saying in that the wild hives I've researched all sterilized their interiors with propolis , some to a depth of 1/4-3/8's of an inch thick on their ground side of their hive. This 'Tower of Honey' was built on top of a wood pile . The brood area was under the wood pile just above the ground which they coated and made into plastic no less then 1/4 inch thick. Think about how we have imitated honeybees in our world where things were needing to be sterilized, like walking into an E.R. or Surgery Room. There's a pan to walk your shoe through of a cleaner to keep the germs out. This in imitation of nature, that of the honeybees and their use of propolis to keep their hives 'Sterile'. Once honeybees are invaded by Varroa mites to the point that they can't clear out the dead and dying , the hive become septic and they than Abscond in a swarm to try to save the queen. Please don't stop your research but please don't teach 'new bees' things like misaligned thoughts. there is far to many 'truths to Bee learned' . Enough truths to studying for a life time and never reach a point of ever knowing enough or knowing it all.
If the bees decide to propolize the floor, then that is itself useful information.
@@BarefootBeekeeper have you seen any evidence of them trying to properlize the floor? I’m finding this super interesting.
So you want to recreate nature to be natural ? Was the stuff in the box found in a natural box? Or you taking it out of nature and putting it in a different setting? So if the mold or fungi was in a set condition and you change it? I guess?
I have no idea what you mean by a "natural box". As you can see, the material came from the area around the hive.
what about mice pushing thru these loose sticks?
Don't worry - mice evolved along with honey bees and so their presence in the hive should be welcomed!
mice do sometimes get into my hives, but rarely do much damage. A strong colony can see off a mouse.
Has any research been done on the effectiveness of the eco-floor?
Interesting. This would make more sense to me if bees created their hives on the ground or in decayed piles of wood. But they don't usually. The build in dry enclosed spaces like tree hollows, wall hollows, and in clement climates, under eaves and in tree crotches. None of those locations seem to be the same as this. Also bees coat with propolis most everything inside a hive, so even if the tree hollow had some detritus at the bottom, I would expect the bees to encase it pretty quickly.
Hundreds of other species live alongside bees in hollow trees.
I think he should fill the box completely with debris so the natural bugs have a nice place to live. Let the bees go find what they want (like the wall of a house).
Fascinating, thank you. I wonder though: aren't you just placing an ecosystem into a relatively sterile environment wherein the absence of rain, light, exposure to the wider natural environment, will quickly render it just as sterile as the rest of the hive?
In some ways, yes, and this is the problem I have been having using this idea with horizontal top bar hives, which are some distance off the ground. It still does a good job of providing low level insulation and regulating airflow, but it does not seem to be sustainable in the sense of being completely self-regulating - drying out is the big problem.
I am now testing a version of the eco floor designed for vertical hives. Watch this space!
@@BarefootBeekeeper Thank you Phil, I shall! Very much enjoying your Channel.
I would really like to see the update
Lets add a squirel and a woodpecker
And some sarcasm.
Not happening when you have Small Hive Beetles
that's what I was thinking too. I am in FL, this looks like a "no go" to me.
Please make an update video thanks Love the ideas!!!
Thank you for the detail and information on how to make a ecological hive. Some beekeepers give honeybees hell... We have to constructed more hives components and its worthwhile considering alternatives.
DOES THE ECO FLOOR AFFECT THE COMBS/HONEY?
can you please give me more information on how this hive has been since it was setup? current videos would be much appreciated. thank you.
Could we have an update on how this hive is doing after the winter?
+J Bach Yes, I intend to do that. I will monitor over the next few seasons.
Mmmm....
There's some interesting thought behind this, but I'm not on board with it.
It views all interactions with humans and bees as 'unnatural' on some level, and if we're going that route we might as well start killing our bees off completely every time we harvest their honey. After all, that's a more natural interaction.
Ultimately, I think it's best to ask "what's the end goal and how does this get to that point".
Mutualism is probably an under-explored topic in the practice of beekeeping, but how to go about that without potentially harming our bees or ourselves is also important. This is effectively introducing random fungi, insects, and bacteria into a hive to find out the end result.
Why not just set the hive boxes on bare earth?
tzkelley Ants, I am pretty sure, would be the main issue
Doodle Maier Tell me about it! I live near Seattle and moisture is a constant battle.
tzkelley Tempting, but I'm not sure that bees do well so close to the ground. I am thinking of building a stand from old tyres and filling that with wood chips.
Phil, how close to the eco floor are the bee’s willing to make comb?
Anything that makes us think about the subject is good because even if this idea isn't the answer it may make someone else think a different way and then their views will influence others. All ideas influence someone else to think as they say "Outside the box", a phrase I hate but in the context a good thing.
P Andrews I agree. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have some of the questions.
Hi Phil, Make sure you ignore the "Nay Sayers" and keep asking them, all the best, Phil Andrews.
How soon can another video be available? Of course, a video with this pagoda hive. Very interesting video - thank you very much!
would this not encourage hive beatles? I put a cedar shaving "blanket" in a narrow frame at the top of my hive in the winter as extra insulation. Hadn't thought of the floor.
+ljbobb1 I don't know about encourage, but certainly would give them more places to hide along with wax moth larvae. I think this dudes in Aussie or New Zeland maybe. He clearly doesn't have them cause I would think he'd have a screened bottom board
+Zak White This dude is in England, as it happens. Wax moth larvae are not going to live long on the floor, as they would have no food and would likely be attacked by earwigs. We don't have SHB, but they are vulnerable in their larval stage and again would provide extra protein for earwigs and other predators.
Can we have news on the hive, please?
Philip Chandler, any updates on the hive?
John Wess see below...
Slugs? Termites? I think compost, moisture, worms. How do mites come into contact with eco floor?
Hammer Candy Mites fall from bees, often while still alive. Slugs get into hives anyway, even when off the ground. We don't have termites here.
how did this hive do through its third year?
@philip Chandler, can you please make a video in the new season how it goes with the colony in this hive?
Can you make us a video next time you check the hive? Thank you.
А как обстоят дела с мышами?
Please do keep us posted on the progress of this hive. There's local interest in the eco-floor approach at least in the beekeeping community in Central Oregon in the US.
interesting
Put some snakes in there too! They'll eat any mice that find their way into your hive.
What was in the bottom of the hive before you placed the first sticks? Partially or completely open? I can see light coming through. Also, can you tell me the name of the mite you mentioned is a predator of the varroa?
That hive had a course mesh in the bottom - something like chicken wire. These days, I use a smaller mesh, to stop wasps sneaking in. The predatory mite is Stratiolelaps scimitus - see www.evergreengrowers.com/stratiolaelaps-scimitus-womersley-hypoaspis.html
Do you think that maybe the tannic acid in pine needles might help to combat varroa when added to your eco floor?
It's possible. I don't routinely add them, but there is also tannic acid in oak bark, which does often find its way into the mix. Oyster mushrooms produce oxalic acid as they grow, so that's another line of enquiry.
@@BarefootBeekeeper the only thing to do is compare suppose.
@@josephwoodall832 yes, but the big difficulty with all bee research is multiple variables: no two colonies are identical. It means that you have to have many hives with sister queens, in groups, in identical conditions, and it's very difficult to draw firm conclusions.
@@BarefootBeekeeper I agree but one could do a preliminary study with just a few hives to see if it's worth further research sister queens would be needed but even just two hives could give you a clue about the value of such a study in only one year.
@@josephwoodall832 possibly, but what data would you collect, and how? It is impossible to measure mite drop with an eco-floor.
About to try the Eco-floor with a top bar hive. I am in Ireland. The weather is very dry at the moment. Is there any benefit from wetting the bark and moss as I place them in the Eco-Floor, or better leave them dry? And what materials are you using in your current Eco-floors? Thank you!
I think the floor material should be just damp. I use a mixture of semi-composted wood chips, sawdust leaf mould and a little soil.
Thank you so much Phil!
do you seriously believe that slugs evolved next to bees? by that logic, bees and slugs should be best mates. just because one species lives in the same habitat as another one does, shouldnt imply that they live together in some sort of symbiotic relationship.
Slugs, snails, beetles, mites, fungi, moulds, yeasts, mosses and bacteria all evolved together. That doesn't mean they are "best mates", simply that they have learned to tolerate each other, but for sure there are many unsuspected symbiotic relationships we currently know nothing about.
The ancestors of my herd of pet zebras evolved alongside lions. Should I introduce some lions into my zebras' enclosure?
+95761395A Zebra genetics were improved by weak strains being culled by lions. Only survivors breed and pass on their genes: that's how evolution works.
im not sure you actualy understand how evolution works in particular. its true that if you are dead, the chance of passing on any genetic information is fairly slim, but thats the same as saying if you break later you will be fast for longer.
evolution favours adaptation. adaptation can mean a huge variety of things. some species strategy is laying tens of thousands of eggs. another species strategy is hiding 1 egg and it goes on and on and on. you dont put a lion next to a zebra and cross your fingers, hoping genetics will happen. i enjoy your content about bees but slugs are not going to cull the weak strains out of your beehives :)
+Zishy Evolution works by killing off that which is poorly adapted to current conditions, including climate, diseases and predators. The slow are caught and eaten: the fast escape and reproduce.
Sir,
How do you help the bees with Mite and Beetles that kill the hives?
(I do not want to have to ever resort to using the quack created ideas. (such as putting poisons to Borax in the hive)
All help is appreciated.
Thank you
Catherine Boydston
Coweta, Ok
USA
We don't have small hive beetle here. Yet.
This is partly what I've done.. I'm putting wood shaving on top of the screen bottom of my KTBH.... using screen bottoms????
नमस्कार जी मैं आपकी वीडियो को हमेशा देखता हूं खासकर जो मधुमक्खी के बॉक्स बनाने की विधि धन्यवाद आपका
Have you tried the ecofloor in a Kenyan top bar hive?
Pop's Shack Yes. Most of my top bar hives now have eco floors.
Are you still using the eecko floor in your hives?
Eco - as in 'ecological' and 'ecosystem', because that is what I'm aiming to create within the hive. Yes, I use them, and they are evolving.
@@BarefootBeekeeper sounds interesting. I am in South East Queensland Australia. I am close to just starting out, trying to catch a swarm from a 3 year old hive in a tree up the paddock. I want to use a Top Bar hive. I hope we can see how your hives continue. Thank you for your time.
the hive has come though it's second winter with no treatments and minimal feeding. I will make another video soon.
Very interesting. Looking forward to your next video
M
Phil Chandler - Barefoot Beekeeper Hi Phil. Just found your site and listened to your video.
An interesting concept. With 2-3 years having past what are the results?
Thank you for this video Phil. My husband and I are beginners bee keepers/helpers/setwards. I just finished your online course through "learning with experts." I am also interested in the work that Paul Stamets is doing with fungi and bees. I imagine that the earth floor of the hive could support fungi as well, which would perhaps be an added benefit for the bees. Any thoughts on that?
Very much so! I have plans to combine beehives and mushroom growing...
Very interesting, gonna look if you made any update videos. And it actually sounds sane unlike other ideas I've heard.
Hi, we want to see bees in that hive.
Gd luck
I thought you where going nuts when I saw this but and its a big BUT, somehow it's right ? I don't know......but it is just right. UM.
I’d love to know how this hive isn’t infested with hive beetles and varoa
We don't have hive beetles in the UK. All hives have Varroa, but some have learned to cope with it.
No way put soil in the bottom of a hive
I like the hive a lot , well done
this type of hives calls "lounger" in Russia. most of beekipers from villages use this type of hives as most traditional frame hive. it contain 16-32 Dadan frames with 1-2 extra housings on top for 1/2 Dadan frame.
Interesting new perspective. Reminds me of the "Hugelkultur" concept in permaculture except with a different objective. Although my instincts tell me this might be more conducive to some of the pests we already battle (varroa, small hive beetles, etc.), congrats for thinking "outside the same old box" and willing to experiment. It should be interesting either way and a new experience that may provide valuable new insight.
I've robbed many trees, and I always find Beetles there now.
I've even seen them to the point of absconding.
I applaud his research, however.
Bees get in touch with those things on their travels. No need for us to overexpose them to it. It's not like my dog living in my house wants anything to do with spiders and snakes on a daily basis. It likes to dig after moles. Should I introduce moles into my house, because of my dog. Why not just chase my dog back into the wild and get it over and done with.
Gabriel "Overexpose" implies an amount that could be harmful, for which there is no data, since AFAIK nobody has done the research. In fact, bees are unlikely to come into contact with soil-dwelling mites while visiting flowers. They would be much more likely to do so in a tree cavity, but since beekeepers tend to put them in sterile boxes, that is no longer the case.
Looks good.Looking forward to seeing how this progresses.
I think the initial exposure should still provide a beneficial immune response...and possibly some exposure to pests/ parasites of organisms harmful to the colony, such as Verroa....
Having had a couple of occurrences of bees coating the surface of the Eco-floor with propolis, I am re-thinking this idea. A possible alternative floor material is charcoal, with which I will be experimenting this year (2017). I also expect to fit electronic monitoring sensors and data loggers to record the bees' interaction with the floor material. Charcoal is a material commonly found in tree cavities that have been caused by lightning strikes and so should be familiar to bees. Charring of the insides and outsides of hives is common practice in Japan.
I'm very glad to see you've made this discovery, and were honest enough to post about it here.
While watching the video, I was thinking to myself that the hives in trees, (where most of them are) would not have all kinds of bits of tree branches, leaves, dirt, etc just beneath them, much less on top of them. They always seal off their cone areas to keep such things out. I was going to post my feelings, and was scrolling down to see if anyone else had posted the same feelings as I had when coming across this. Again, glad to see this. Thanks.
I'm not sure that the bees coating the floor in propolis would be a negative thing. A lot of it could just be managing the airflow through the hive, as there aren't many screened bottoms in hives bees choose for themselves in nature. ;) Some studies have suggested that the amount of propolis in a hive also has a correlation to the hive's overall resistance to disease. If true, I would think that having a whole floor covered in it would be a good thing.
I must admit this makes sense the bees will regulate their environment and I think the use of wood, leaves and soil as an alternative the a screened bottom board is a brilliant idea. As the wood, leaves and soil creates its own ecosystem a bit like the floor of a cave underneath bats, great idea.
Wild bees will propolis the whole of their tree cavity. It is though that this is to "sterilise" their environment. I think I got this from by Tom Seeley in some BBKA lectures on wild bees. Honey Bees in the Wild - PART 2 on youtube.
Although an over-abundance of propolis may be an inconvenience for the beekeeper in working a hive, I would think it would be a great thing for the bees. Considering its health benefits, the more propolis, the better!
The only research is that undertaken by beekeepers all over the world who are trying out ideas like this. As nothing is likely to be patentable, corporates are unlikely to be interesting in funding 'real' research, so it is up to us to find our own solutions.
Totally agree Phil 😎
We are running several experiments at any one time.
Have you noticed any wax moth larvae in the eco floor ?
Thinking of adding this to a top bar hive.
Great idea. Update please!
Fascinating experiment - do keep us apprised of how it progresses.
I made an ecofloor hive stand for my national hive last year based on Phil's ideas for ecofloors for kTBH. I made a four sided box box with 100mm wide 20 mm thick wood, put 10mm mesh underneath and a leg on each corner. I filled it with woodchips and placed aluminium 2mm craft mesh on top. I used this so it will roll back and I can "top up" the woodchips. It isn't entirely essential but ensures the bees don't build down from the frame bottom into the ecofloor. I have successfully overwintered a very small colony in this hive.
I wanted to write a paper for my beekeeping class about symbiotic or mutual relationships with bees and other insects. There little to no data being done about this subject. Thank you so much for this video and its ecological potential!
You're welcome. Please let me know when I can read it. You might also like to take a look at the work of Paul Stamets on the relationship between bees and fungi. There is an awful lot we know nothing about yet.
Looking forward to the update
What many of the comments are addressing is the adaptability and evolution of a species to the environment. What Philip is doing is more about addressing the sterile nature of modern beekeeping and the hives we use. Few things live in a sterile environment or monoculture and this includes humans. Beekeepers (and their bees) by and large are on the front lines of environmental issues since they are directly impacted in a very costly manner. If you understand "certified organic" produce and what it takes to achieve that standard, just go look for certified organic honey.. it doesn't exist because the whole of human activity has compromised the natural environment with pesticides, herbicides and pollution that ends up in the honey.
MR PC: YOU FORCED US TO THINK IN A WAY I HOPE NOBODY ELSE DID THIS BEFORE. ..
I THING TO REDUCE THE MOISTURE WE CAN ADD SOME CHARCOAL TO THE BIOMIX.
PLEASE KEEP US POSTED WITH THE RESULT.
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN FOR YOUR INNOVATIVE THINKING.
MAJID
If you received a nasty wound, this guy would tell you to rub some dirt in it.
Easy If you were a bit more pleasant, you'd be a little more like "this guy".
I did it with Woodglut.
Amazed by some of the responses to one experienced beekeeper's experiment in one hive. The level of vitriol seems bizarre, unless of course the comments are from people who've tried the idea themselves..?
Anyway, I'll be interested to see how the hive works out long term.
If you are wondering about the type of hive I am using here, this video describes it - ruclips.net/video/vnyfTQhH2TQ/видео.html
That will make a lovely landing pad for the Varroa mites who should fall on the ground instead. We live next to bees should we move in the box too, how about my rabbit. LoL, what next. All pseudo mumbo jumbo science, lots of naive people out there !!!
For expert TBH advice without the nonsense go to Michael Bush or Les Crowder they know what they are talking about, Always look at your videos when I need a laugh !
Varroa mites fall to the floor and are eaten by predators. Think before you post ignorant comments.
A Vatar: Why the negativity? People everywhere are investigating novel ways to address the problems currently facing honey bees. So there's one beekeeper trying to think more broadly about a complete "hive ecosystem" rather than using insecticides inside a box full of insects. Does Varroa have a predator like Stratiolaelaps? If so, what might it take to help that predator thrive inside a hive? That seems like a very meaningful question even if it ends up being a dead end.
I say good on him. Better this than the nearly dogmatic and uniform thinking of the last 120 years of beekeeping that has been conjoined with the aggressive commoditization of honey. Those forces have conspired to generate gross mistakes that have introduced invasive viruses and pests in the name of increased honey production..... decimating Apis Mellifera around the globe. Then when someone suggests something outside the existing practices they get shot down. In other words, "Let us keep doing what we've been doing e.g. engaging in a chemical arms race with increasingly resistant pests." That does not sound like wisdom to me I guess.
Some of us feel, as a result, that maybe the experts have had their say and it's time to let some creativity in.
Applause for Mr. Chandler for thinking in novel ways even if its a bust. Perhaps if we have a million more just like him we'd have millions of experiments being run. Maybe then one of them might produce something important. What's the harm? Dirt in the bottom of a hive? So what. The loss of some bees? Well....its seems we already have that.
You sound like an elitist beek who can't think outside of the box. Tunnel vision. Think about the mites getting eaten up so they can't reproduce and eco floors eliminating the V problem around the world. All it takes is the right type of eco floor and the right kind of "companioning" to have living entities working for us to keep the bees healthier. Ever heard of companion planting or polyculture? Certainly it would be close minded to consider it impossible for bees to have allies. YES they have enemies - that we are aware, but thus they must also have allies. If we supply them with the things that boost them like natural resources whole materials, and good companions they can repopulate earth. We need everyones help on this, even yours beek.
looking forward to it.
This seems so obvious now. I may try this.
Hello Philip I sure interested in seeing how this turn out I am just starting in the bees and love to learn new way to succeed in anything we do. Please up date us. I see Dewey Sanchez had a hive for one season and a small one interesting to say the least so let hear from you soon
Building a eco floor on top of an eco floor. I totally get it!
Great video Philip... I've been looking for something on this topic for ages and like magic, it's here tonight :) Lot's of harsh people out there, tuff audience. I was thinking further about evolution and have another perspective to add, maybe its in there already, I just skimmed after a few posts. But I was thinking about the relationship of ants and Peony's, my favorite garden perennial. This is plain, simple and undeniable proof of natural evolution. One thing needs the other for health and survival. The Peony's sent calls to the ants, the ants journey up the stems to collect the sweet nectar. The Peony will not flower without the ant and the ant has become partly reliant on the Peony's nectar; it's a wonder I've observed since early childhood... Why are those beautiful flowers always so full of ants I pondered? So there, I have absolute faith that there are organisms which are aligned with the bees. It is man who has not learned to balance 'science' with nature. One extreme or the other is dangerous and they in fact need each other to be perfect. I was also thinking about those slugs, I bet they keep things nice and humid in addition to aiding in the micro climate of an eco floor. If one can achieve optimal humidity in the hive, it is proven to prevent chalk brood. Slugs are a great ingredient in a biological stew. Not only that, the acidic environment of the decomposition is the very thing that kills off those Varroa. I made a provision for an eco floor in my hive this spring. Thanks.
I'm occasionally amused and baffled by what we come to accept as "normal" and the ways some react when the accepted norm is violated. In this case housing bees in an unnatural sterile box and selecting queens for one or two preferred attributes (docility, brood build up, or honey production etc) to the exclusion of other attributes like robustness or pest resistance.....all culminating in a point where the species has become weakened and cannot survive without regular human intervention & the repeated introduction of toxic chemicals and acids into the hive. This has become the "accepted norm". This is how how you bee keep nowadays.....it's simply "how it's done".
When looked at objectively & in retrospect this all seems like a hair brained plan. Weaken the bees to a point where you need to dose them with chemical strips you dare not touch with your bare fingers and which, if applied carelessly, renders the honey unfit for human consumption and stands a good chance of producing treatment resistant super-pests. And this is how it's done now. Period.
Deviate from these accepted norms and you get what Phil Chandler has gotten from a few comments here: Cat calls from the bleachers and howls from the gallery. "Blasphemer!! Twigs, punky wood, and leaf litter have NO PLACE inside a bee hive don't you know??!! Never mind the natural hollows of trees where these things exist in abundance.....bees have only ever made their homes inside sterile boxes such as those one may acquire via mail order don't you know??!! Why just look inside the latest polystyrene Langstroth! You'll find no leaf litter or fungus there!! Begone Heritic!!! Trouble us no more with your silly notions of "ecosystems" and "symbiotic relationships" from the wild!!!"
Okay sure, maybe Phil's Eco Floor produces no favorable results.....and he's already admitted he's had at least one hive cover the whole thing in propolis. But is it any more hair brained than forcing bees into a molded plastic container and requiring them to build comb on pre-fabricated foundation? Is it any more hair brained than placing toxic insecticides between frames in an effort to kill some little insects without killing the bigger insects?
Okay yeah.....maybe apis mellifera has become the insect world's equivalent of the milking cow.....requiring frequent and regular human intervention to survive. But I still can't find it in me to criticize Phil Chandler for thinking creatively and cutting against the grains that have led apis mellifera to this place.
Good on you Phil!!! Would that there were a million more of you rather then the millions cleaving to the accepted norm.
Thank you. And I expect to remain a heretic until further notice...
This video shows Paul Stamets' researching along similar lines, with a more scientific and focused approach. Watch the last 15 mins or so for the bee research ruclips.net/video/P3oFzGFJ_UQ/видео.html