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How ever long you think somthing will take, multiply that by 2 to get a realistic time frame. It's the simple things that kill your production, things you think will be simple, often aren't.
I don't remember where I got this from, but I remember someone telling me "gamers don't look up" as a piece of advice on game dev. It's so true. I've seen it happen again and again. As an example, in the past couple of chapters of Poppy Playtime, there are multiple points where you're suppose to go upwards through a hole in the ceiling and I've seen multiple people get stuck at these points in the game. The devs tried to hint towards the holes by having lights come down through the holes, but most players just see the lights as set dressing and ignore it.
The whole “assume that your player is 1/3 smart as you” is a little reductive. Best UX lesson I learned was from a book called “Design of Everyday Things” by Donald A Norman (was recommended reading for my UI/UX design class on my computer sci course back in 2010ish). Basically you should be able to intuit how something works just by looking at the object, or at the very least be able to tell what interactions are available to you. For example, a door with a handle should be pulled, whereas one with a flat panel should be pushed. And now I have shared my complex with any reader of how many badly designed doors there are, handles should not be on push dooors!!! 😂
First of "handles should not be on push dooors" is a stupid statement. A lot of doors all around the world have handles on the in- and outside of the door. Or at least a door Knob on the outside and a handle on the inside. The only doors that should have Flat panels are ones you can push open in both directions. Passing doors in hotel kittchens would be an example. And to the “assume that your player is 1/3 smart as you” i can just say ... Game Devs encountering DAU`s and PICNIC`s for the first time! Never forget the chair to keyboard interface has to work as well!
I've just decided to take "the plunge" and begin the journey of designing a video game, and I'm very thankful for anyone, such as Thomas here, who is open enough to share those pitfalls. It's hard to say "I made a mistake", even though we all do, and I applaud you for sharing in the hopes of improving other's process. Thank you, and I value this information.
I`m currently working in AAA dev and we have all the same mistakes man! :) Art before design is the worst. Lets fully Art an area before we then have to move it all. Cutscenes instead of good gameplay, or scripting is not ideal. Making a game should be about gameplay, not masking it behind a cutscene to "tie" the bits which do not work together. Great advice for a lot of folks!
A good designer is one who revises, who can twist and pivot as needed. Ernest Hemingway once said, “The first draft of anything is shit.” You have to find out what you’re about before you can cultivate the player experience you want.
I totally agree about the strength of tropes tbh. "Subverting expectations" actually works out and pays off so RARELY because stories, all stories, are built so heavily on archetypes and tropes, and that makes them recognizable and understandable. It also makes them believable if it's not done too heavy-handedly. When you have a story built solidly on archetypes, then you CAN have a few moments that subvert expectations, and they really stand out and are understood for what they are because they AREN'T what you expected. It's why taking a classic story and adding "a twist" works as well. Solid foundation, unique angle or detail. This is actually why I thought the idea for Father was great. Even if one's never been in that situation (a father whose daughter gets brainwashed by a cult and he has to go save her), it's grounded enough that it makes you think "Huh, I could see that happening. I wonder how I would handle that situation. Guess I get to find out through this game". If every character were to act unpredictably and differently than most people in that situation would act (subverting expectations), it takes us out of the immersion of "what would happen if I were in this scenario". Because that keeps wildly changing the scenario and characters on you and gradually makes it less and less believable. But once the foundation is built solidly and believably enough, then you CAN have room for one or two characters defying expectations for a cool twist in the story.
It's probably worse. Some people do write word by word, though they usually need to edit a lot this way. The advantage is that sometimes it's easier to be creative this way, for some people.
It depends on the genre and developer. I'm not really a planner, I just keep everything in my head and I'm making a JRPG which is a genre with simple levels that are all about graphics. So grey boxing isn't really for me. If I had testers that are willing to play a grey box level I'd probably reconsider, but just for me solo it's not needed. If later everyone says in beta that the levels suck I'll have to change them but there's no other way. Grey boxing wouldn't save me in that case.
What you've described is essentially stroyboarding & animatics in the animation industry or wireframing in the web design industry. Design prototyping across industries isn't so different.
Not a fan of simple graybox personally. I prefer adding simple textures to the geometry-green for grass on the ground, brown for walls, or whatever is appropriate. When you design a level using only gray or white, the design is clear and readable. However, after adding textures and colors, and you dresup the layout, you may find that your design does not work as intended due to player perception overload, among other factors.
Some concepts I’ve picked up making my own project that echo these: 1. You typically want to design (or at least redesign) the first area a player will encounter as one of the last things you do. It’ll better ensure you use all of the things you’ve learned making your game to give the most polished first impression. 2. I’d argue you could allow the player to find a key before a door it opens if there was some clue on how to use that key properly found further past the door. Metroidbrainias have been doing this more frequently and it’s quite satisfying to go “oh that’s this thing is for!” 3. When getting that early feedback, don’t back seat the playtester. Endure the pain of them bumping around in the dark not because they’re not as smart as you but because they’re not as informed and you didn’t sign post well enough. What they end up doing instead of going to the intended path can be used to help guide them back onto it when you take their feedback and iterate.
A design philosophy I like is to keep the level grey box till a few rounds of play-testing. As you mentioned texturing, set dressing, or any kind of art really distracts from evaluating the level design. If you have a great fun level and great fun gameplay loop it will be fun regardless with no textures and grey box.
Love the video, awesome advice. It's so relatable that you get the urge to make your game pretty before you've even done the greyboxing and tested if it's fun enough to begin with. The creation of Super Mario 64 has been a huge inspiration for me in this regard. Most of the time developing was spent making Mario run and jump around grey worlds with all kinds of obstacles before they started creating any levels with the little time they had left to release the game. The movement just HAD to feel great. Also thank you for the 'Story' book recommendation, I'm definitely giving that a read!
Thomas, thank you for all your videos. You were one of the first people I followed when I set out to create my first game, and your content has been incredibly helpful at every step of the way.
Im personally not a fan of starting games with cutscenes. I just want to start learning the mechanics of the game so i can start having fun 😀 . I think too many games nowadays do this and it has turned into a slog of button mashing to find the fun...
6:00 - 6:30 This reminds me that level design is about providing obstacles and solutions to the players in a precise way so that it would create that "flow" effect by having the difficulty increase in the right amount to keep things interesting.
Been learning Unreal this year and am working on a plan of attack to get a game out. Thank you so much for making this channel and giving aspiring devs some insight so we can hopefully dodge some pitfalls.
5:10 Level design is the hardest part of game dev imo I didn’t realize how difficult until I tried it (even a simple town in a top down rpg) getting that “flow” just right can be so surprisingly tough...
Getting feedback is pretty scary. You never know what kind of players you're gonna get and a lot don't necessarily do it respectfully. Its why Im scared! But when I did get some from a friend, his feedback was so valuable, Inimplemented it right away! Not all but most! And its especially important to have a varied pool of feedback. Some people that love your genre, some that are open to try and some that just hate it.
In web development, it's a general rule that developers should never be trusted to QA their own features. We'll always pick the happy path because we've done it over and over again. You need fresh eyes to try and break it, and provide feedback on where it needs polish.
I spent two years working on coding the core mechanics for my game, because I was in over my head and just slowly muddled through it. Don't be me and make this mistake. If there's something you're trying to do and it clearly seems too difficult, find someone who can help you. And if you decide to buy something off the Asset Store, make sure you do it early before you spend a lot of time trying to do it yourself, because the asset will very likely take a long time to learn how to use.
The fact that your atmosphere is what you nailed is a great sign. Its easier to change enemy AI than it is to totally redesign the art assets IMHO. This is all great feedback thought. Lots of great points to digest.
This is great Thomas. I’d be very curious to see a video about how you made the enemies better ect. I feel like the glitter explosions🎉 need some more… juice.. more particles or somethin.
Really enjoyed this one Thomas, thanks! This one has some really solid practical advice. It definitely got me thinking I need to have more focus on play-testing my own game for a more substantial period before just trying to finish it asap.
Twisted tower looks amazing. I think it would be a bit more immersive if it were less gun play, and more like "little nightmares". For instance, instead of having the enemy just waiting in the hallway, you could have them working on something in the tower with the option to sneak past. Also changing each model slightly to create something that resembles a family could add to the spooky story and keep the gunplay interesting. Just some thoughts
Every time I start "grey boxing" I always go into thinking "this will just be a grey box, no textures or assets" but then I always end up adding at least a few textures and a few assets...ugh.
Absolute truth, industry is kinda sucky right now, had an almost deal with 4 Publishers and they are providing everything else except FUNDING! 🙈🙈 I told them that I have quit my job and the game is featured on IGN channel yet still no luck so far. But I have my hopes up and really praying that it goes all well in the end for everybody out there who is trying to make it BIG! 💪
You are right on how the feedback feels. First time guys streamed a live playtest on Discord my game was in a broken state and I wanted to curl up and die. 🤣🙈
Thanks Thomas for sharing your experience, I've been following up with your development for years now and I like how you work things out. As for me I never played your game so I can't judge, but I always consider enemy types are so important for any game, they are the super stars of every game. I believe a game should have at least 3 basic type enemy variations, add to it 2 or more "Brute" class enemy types, of course Bosses and sub-Bosses are very critical! I understand it can be a lot of work, but any FPS game type should have these in order to succeed. Unless you are a multiplayer shooter type! Hard puzzle level design is also crucial to make the game interesting, consider it like a boss level but a hard puzzle instead, or better: A mix of both! Good luck and looking forward to trying your game when it's released :)
Quick 1 second change that will make the game feel better. Make it so you can break those boxes in 1 hit. Happy to join a feedback session for some in depth feedback if you need another round of testing.
Also, lots of the things in this video are good examples of why people should develop for fun, get a job in a studio to learn professional practices and values, and *then* “go indie”. These things are presented as hard-won nuggets of wisdom; I learnt about early user testing in my first 3 months as a junior designer.
Thanks for the tips Thomas! I think I’m struggling with getting incomplete builds out in front of people, and keep waiting for that polished demo build that takes a long time doing it on the side.
Absolutely agree with you. My question is - are you going to use Unity in another projects or do you want to drop this engine after last-year Unity scandal? I know you loved working with this engine (just like me) and I am curious what are you going to do after Unity's outrage?
Very interesting, though I think your points in level design with "planning it out" is really dependent on the type of game you are making and your method of design. I am also developing a game, but as a level designer and artist, I find it much easier to make something, then hit that play button to test, and fine tweak as I go. As I paint, sculpt and place Inspiration comes to me.
1:36 what did you mean by "Sooner"? When? Because testing a things unfinished, makes no sence, because people will complain about missing things, however testing when every feature is ready, is not a "sooner".
First lvl & ending cutscene because a good first impression is always key and if it ends with a bang you’ll def go away with a good feeling. But endings are mostly not the problem, however if you have a crappy ending ppl will always remember your game for it.
If you have a good story but fails to make a unique game with it, it means that you are basically writing a novel the whole time not making a game, you can take that story as a novel, if you think it's better that way. I used up my 2 years to realize that.
Plan them in the greyboxing stage Real objects have specific measurements, consider these boxes "colliders" for these types of objects, and shape/scale them as close as possible to real life measurements Any professional asset you use or designer would use real measurements too
To me, the biggest mistake would be working on a game for three years and spending 100s of thousands dollars and THEN getting closed beta feedback...Not sure if thats the full story of your game and i dont want to assume, but if it is, yeesh. Devs should get a prototype build working asap and get feedback early and often, no matter how confident you are in your game.
Question: how do you balance rhythm mechanics? I don't mean in a full game dedicated to rhythm genre, more like just certain abilities here and there that require proper input time in order to utilize it. For example, I watched painfully as my friend struggled pressing a single key every about 1s (that's all you have to do with that ability). There are visual ques in place as well, and it has a generous tolerance. Easy, simple, right? WRONG! It was a struggle. Is my friend just bad at this kind of gameplay? Am I doing something wrong?
One time I watched a whole video explaining what NOT to do when making a trailer. Then I started to plan my own trailer, and I thought to myself “ehh… I know what I’m doing. It would be so cool!” Then I proceeded to make the exact mistakes the whole video was telling me not to do. Morale of the story: trust the judgement of the professionals who have been doing this for years. You do not know what you are doing and your plan is not as awesome as you think.
About the developer being "smarter" than the player: it's more like, the player is thrown into this abstract world, with who knows what kind of shenanigans waiting around each corner, and without knowledge of world rules. So... just tell the rules of the world, show how things work. Then show challenges that exist in this world.
Did you really have a character on a boat... Looking at a locket, heading towards a tower? Where have I seen this before... Would you kindly remind me?
Thomas I have a question if you have time. So I have been trying to make games now for years but I am so bad at Art. This is not an exaggeration I’ve tried pixel Art, 2D and even 3D modeling in blender. Im so bad like drawing Mario graphics in Aesprite would take me years and it still looks bad. So to the question. How do I pay an artist if I can’t get backing because I still don’t have a demo because I can’t do the art? I have 3 kids, a wife and a ton of responsibilities. So it’s not like I can get money from anywhere else. I’m lucky to have $10 dollars to myself over a 12 month time span. Im started to feel and think really dark but I don’t know what to do. I need Art to show my idea to get backing to pay an artist it seems impossible. What do I do?
It’s not hard right now bro it’s because there’s no creativity people want to enjoy those retro vibes when games were actual FUN.. now everything is single player the game play normally don’t keep the gamers attention so it’s not that the industry has issues the people making the game are the issues not being HIP TO WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT.. just like anything or a MOVIE if u want people to watch or tune in to your tv show u have to keep the HYPE so that’s all it is just that the world is watered down that people really don’t care to even look for the best best game anymore I know I felt like this with movies who else feels me movies are so boring nowadays the stories suck like every movie so Hollywood now like John wick 4 so theatrical to the point it was annoying so I think if the people making things directing things creating things are poor in ART THERE PASSION THEn u drown yourself just like DISNEY IS SLOWLY DROWNING AN SHOULD BURN
The reason for the 'decline' of the game dev industry is simple: In 2020 (covid) the industry grew so large since so many more people who would normally not play games started playing to pass time, investors saw this rise and immediately threw billions of dollars into the industry, now the market has slowed down significantly and investors want out
Im actually kind of floored that you guys didnt whitebox your levels and test them before puting art in. If you watch any videos on people that have built games, they tell you that.
Regarding mistake #3, you mentioned that devs need to dumb themselves down and to watch people play their game to know how to do that, but you don't explain why that's important. Why is it important that we need to look at our game design as if we have the knowledge of an average player? I imagine it's to better design levels and encounters to teach the players how to play and navigate the game, but that's just a guess. @thomasbrush, any thoughts?
Most game devs also lack any serious creativity. They're just redoing what's already been done with no unique twist, no hook, nothing special about their game. It's no different than making a piece of forgettable music
You have to many Avoid X number of mistakes in title video you should right What totally flopped about my new game twisted tower or Here are the feed back about my new game. The video is great and informative but the generic title is bad.
I love BioShock, but I have zero desire to even try this because of the "modern horror for kids"-looking enemies and a clown's mallet ... I see you're going for the "Bioshock" vibe and audience, but why does it feel so silly/childish? In Bioshock you use the wrench to save Ammo, to be more efficient, it wasn't silly but tense :(
Well there is one thing I noticed that every dude who has yt tring to make games is selling coarse how to make games xDD somehow I think it is actually the primary source of income for you guys.
The amusing thing is that you said "for-tay" 100 times in this video and most people don't realise that 'forte' (e.g. this isn't my forte) is supposed to be pronounced 'fort'. It derives from the French forte (meaning strength), not the Italian forte (meaning loud).
Seriously dude who is not aware about blocking your level before making it pretty? I mean it should be obvious O__o The industry doing it for decades already. Dozens of video on youtube about it and you still managed to fall in this trap... And regarding players are stupid... There's a rule "Test early - test often". Playtesting should be a thing. Just invite someone to play the game, sit with a notepad on the side and silently watch how he plays your game and every time when player do something you were not expecting - write it down, do not give him hints until he stuck completely. Valve was saying this more than 20 years ago. When half-life 2 was released. You can invite your friends or just random people from the street to play your game. Or pay to some professional testers if you have money.
I started my game journey back in 2020 , made a couple of games work in very big mnc but know. I stuck in washroom waiting for someone to bring me toilet roll.... So if someone who living near new Orleans plse help me 🙏😭😭
Actually this trend is going down. As a person who worked at Ubisoft I can confidently say that the main priority is to create well selling games(with or without diversity) so bosses could pay the bills and brag to shareholders how well everything is going. If you don't like diversity just don't buy such games. Diversity is not a problem, gamers dictate the rules, gamers buy games, we as developers cannot force you to buy our games, we just create what the market demands.
It’s not diversity that is the issue, but shareholders. Rather than take risks and go with the fun, companies are too scared to fail and want to appease shareholders over the players. Dei isn’t necessarily a good thing, but I play games with the ugliest characters known to man cause they’re fun.
I blame artists , in 2000s artists were anti - Christians and drew demons ,half naked women , and put blood and gore everywhere to annoy conservative people, while boomers hated these games teenagers loved them , now loads of gamers are on their 30s and dont care about the non binary characters they make for "boring gardening 3" , now they are hated by 90%+ of ppl
If they didn't sell, they wouldn't make them. And when I hear people complain about statistically under represented minorities getting some time in the spot light, all I hear is "I'm to fragile in my own skin to have other people that aren't like me represented." The social norms have been represented forever, it is time to give minority groups their time and let them know we see them and they have just as powerful stories to tell as we do. We are all human, and we should all see ourselves reflected in our favorite medium at some point. If you disagree, just don't buy the game.
What I took away from this video: I'm a scared little manchild who is hesitant about getting feedback and improving. I didnt research game design and so didnt know about greyboxing until 10 years later. (What!?) I think people are idiots and I am 2/3 smarter than everyone else. Way to go buddy. I used to like your videos but this is some stupid ass stuff. Maybe it is just the way your are wording it or coming across but this is not good. The game industry sucks right now because it has been infected with ideology and most gamers don't want any of it. When you make shitty games that dont sell, or even critically acclaimed games that dont sell, expect to lose your job. Ubisoft drama anyone. Helldivers drama anyone? SBI ANYONE? You talk about the game industry like you actually know whats going on yet these layoffs are A GOOD THING, cut the chaff, trim the fat. Sure c-suit always gona screw people over for their bonuses but that doesn't excuse pissing of the majority of the gaming demographic by making crap most of us dont want and then calling us ists and phobes because we don't drink the coolaid. To quote MR Swoll "Do Better".
it might just be the way he worded it, otherwise his reasoning is very factual. Simply working on a game for too long (#2 is slightly concerning) will cause any of these problems. IF you are the intended audience of indie dev, (not just a normal gamer). this is really important advice. edit: he specifically means indie game industry, the AAA game industry you are talking about is a different story.
My guy, it's an indie dev giving advice to other indie devs. Most indie devs don't include woke ideology in their games, they have different problems, for example not knowing basic things that can improve their workflow like greyboxing.
@@unrealredist4124 I am in the process of making my own game and listen to / watch a lot of dev content. Not just a gamer. If you think the A and AA space is not just as bad as the top, I'd say look at the games and studios that failed and why. Also, when he was talking about layoffs in the industry, it is across the spectrum right? Because too many take the funding.. Take the grants... Take the investments.. Not a lot of indie devs do it alone and fully self financed. I may have been a little obnoxious or worded my own comment a little rudely but that doesnt negate the argument. If I worked in carpenty for a decade but didnt know what sanding was, what would you call me? If I said I was smarter than most people who will play my game, what kind of word word would best describe my attitude? And all he said is "this comment" Nice...
I passed a guy today who was stumbling down the side of the road drunk and rambling incoherently about the government and then screaming at a tree that he was gonna beat its ass. This comment has the same energy. Idk what you watched but I understood his point just fine.
Thanks for watchin guys! What are some mistakes you've learned?
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How ever long you think somthing will take, multiply that by 2 to get a realistic time frame.
It's the simple things that kill your production, things you think will be simple, often aren't.
Automate EVERYTHING you possibly can. It compounds SO much over years. If you don't know how, Figure it out!
Gray box, minimum viable product, get feedback early, are all super important
I don't remember where I got this from, but I remember someone telling me "gamers don't look up" as a piece of advice on game dev. It's so true. I've seen it happen again and again.
As an example, in the past couple of chapters of Poppy Playtime, there are multiple points where you're suppose to go upwards through a hole in the ceiling and I've seen multiple people get stuck at these points in the game. The devs tried to hint towards the holes by having lights come down through the holes, but most players just see the lights as set dressing and ignore it.
This is a general people thing and not just gamers. In real life people tend to not look up.
It's not just gamers. In real life, people don't look up. Our vision works more for side to side.
And when you put yellow paint or arrows in the game, people act like they would have found it anyway and you're being condescending.
i've heard this from the portal 2 developer commentary. maybe you got it there too ?
People generally don't look up so you have to hint them or bait them with something to check the ceiling.
The whole “assume that your player is 1/3 smart as you” is a little reductive. Best UX lesson I learned was from a book called “Design of Everyday Things” by Donald A Norman (was recommended reading for my UI/UX design class on my computer sci course back in 2010ish). Basically you should be able to intuit how something works just by looking at the object, or at the very least be able to tell what interactions are available to you. For example, a door with a handle should be pulled, whereas one with a flat panel should be pushed. And now I have shared my complex with any reader of how many badly designed doors there are, handles should not be on push dooors!!! 😂
Oh.. good way to deal with it, thanks!
I was wondering how to approach UX in terms of items/level design
Absolutely agree though occasionally you get people pushing a handle 😂😂
@@Spacemarine658 Its the not the people's fault, its whoever built the door (added the handles)! Argh! 😂😂
Ooo, thank you! I see my library has the audiobook on Hoopla! (And even an audiobook of a summary! Probably because it's used in class.)
First of "handles should not be on push dooors" is a stupid statement. A lot of doors all around the world have handles on the in- and outside of the door. Or at least a door Knob on the outside and a handle on the inside. The only doors that should have Flat panels are ones you can push open in both directions. Passing doors in hotel kittchens would be an example. And to the “assume that your player is 1/3 smart as you” i can just say ... Game Devs encountering DAU`s and PICNIC`s for the first time! Never forget the chair to keyboard interface has to work as well!
I've just decided to take "the plunge" and begin the journey of designing a video game, and I'm very thankful for anyone, such as Thomas here, who is open enough to share those pitfalls. It's hard to say "I made a mistake", even though we all do, and I applaud you for sharing in the hopes of improving other's process. Thank you, and I value this information.
Welcome to GameDev! Are you going solo or with a team?
@@rodriguespepper I think I'm fated to be going it solo. Time to put my stubbornness to the test!
@@JeffArbough start small in every aspect. Gradually increase complexity with every game and you should be good 😊 good luck!
@@rodriguespepper Thank you, I definitely can tell that it is an uphill battle, but I am undeterred!
I`m currently working in AAA dev and we have all the same mistakes man! :) Art before design is the worst. Lets fully Art an area before we then have to move it all. Cutscenes instead of good gameplay, or scripting is not ideal. Making a game should be about gameplay, not masking it behind a cutscene to "tie" the bits which do not work together. Great advice for a lot of folks!
A good designer is one who revises, who can twist and pivot as needed.
Ernest Hemingway once said, “The first draft of anything is shit.”
You have to find out what you’re about before you can cultivate the player experience you want.
Best of luck for you man, you're a very big inspiration for many people (including me)
I totally agree about the strength of tropes tbh. "Subverting expectations" actually works out and pays off so RARELY because stories, all stories, are built so heavily on archetypes and tropes, and that makes them recognizable and understandable. It also makes them believable if it's not done too heavy-handedly. When you have a story built solidly on archetypes, then you CAN have a few moments that subvert expectations, and they really stand out and are understood for what they are because they AREN'T what you expected. It's why taking a classic story and adding "a twist" works as well. Solid foundation, unique angle or detail.
This is actually why I thought the idea for Father was great. Even if one's never been in that situation (a father whose daughter gets brainwashed by a cult and he has to go save her), it's grounded enough that it makes you think "Huh, I could see that happening. I wonder how I would handle that situation. Guess I get to find out through this game". If every character were to act unpredictably and differently than most people in that situation would act (subverting expectations), it takes us out of the immersion of "what would happen if I were in this scenario". Because that keeps wildly changing the scenario and characters on you and gradually makes it less and less believable. But once the foundation is built solidly and believably enough, then you CAN have room for one or two characters defying expectations for a cool twist in the story.
Not planning out your levels is like writing a book word by word without thinking about the whole story first.
It's probably worse. Some people do write word by word, though they usually need to edit a lot this way. The advantage is that sometimes it's easier to be creative this way, for some people.
It depends on the genre and developer. I'm not really a planner, I just keep everything in my head and I'm making a JRPG which is a genre with simple levels that are all about graphics. So grey boxing isn't really for me.
If I had testers that are willing to play a grey box level I'd probably reconsider, but just for me solo it's not needed.
If later everyone says in beta that the levels suck I'll have to change them but there's no other way. Grey boxing wouldn't save me in that case.
What you've described is essentially stroyboarding & animatics in the animation industry or wireframing in the web design industry. Design prototyping across industries isn't so different.
Not a fan of simple graybox personally. I prefer adding simple textures to the geometry-green for grass on the ground, brown for walls, or whatever is appropriate. When you design a level using only gray or white, the design is clear and readable. However, after adding textures and colors, and you dresup the layout, you may find that your design does not work as intended due to player perception overload, among other factors.
Thanks for the tip, I'll use it in my game
Some concepts I’ve picked up making my own project that echo these:
1. You typically want to design (or at least redesign) the first area a player will encounter as one of the last things you do. It’ll better ensure you use all of the things you’ve learned making your game to give the most polished first impression.
2. I’d argue you could allow the player to find a key before a door it opens if there was some clue on how to use that key properly found further past the door. Metroidbrainias have been doing this more frequently and it’s quite satisfying to go “oh that’s this thing is for!”
3. When getting that early feedback, don’t back seat the playtester. Endure the pain of them bumping around in the dark not because they’re not as smart as you but because they’re not as informed and you didn’t sign post well enough. What they end up doing instead of going to the intended path can be used to help guide them back onto it when you take their feedback and iterate.
A design philosophy I like is to keep the level grey box till a few rounds of play-testing. As you mentioned texturing, set dressing, or any kind of art really distracts from evaluating the level design.
If you have a great fun level and great fun gameplay loop it will be fun regardless with no textures and grey box.
Love the video, awesome advice. It's so relatable that you get the urge to make your game pretty before you've even done the greyboxing and tested if it's fun enough to begin with. The creation of Super Mario 64 has been a huge inspiration for me in this regard. Most of the time developing was spent making Mario run and jump around grey worlds with all kinds of obstacles before they started creating any levels with the little time they had left to release the game. The movement just HAD to feel great. Also thank you for the 'Story' book recommendation, I'm definitely giving that a read!
Thomas, thank you for all your videos. You were one of the first people I followed when I set out to create my first game, and your content has been incredibly helpful at every step of the way.
Im personally not a fan of starting games with cutscenes. I just want to start learning the mechanics of the game so i can start having fun 😀 . I think too many games nowadays do this and it has turned into a slog of button mashing to find the fun...
Agreed, a Half-Life style "cutscene" would do wonders tho
@@ComplexAce no that might be worse
This is why prototyping is such an important step in game design.
6:00 - 6:30
This reminds me that level design is about providing obstacles and solutions to the players in a precise way so that it would create that "flow" effect by having the difficulty increase in the right amount to keep things interesting.
Been learning Unreal this year and am working on a plan of attack to get a game out. Thank you so much for making this channel and giving aspiring devs some insight so we can hopefully dodge some pitfalls.
5:10 Level design is the hardest part of game dev imo I didn’t realize how difficult until I tried it (even a simple town in a top down rpg) getting that “flow” just right can be so surprisingly tough...
Getting feedback is pretty scary. You never know what kind of players you're gonna get and a lot don't necessarily do it respectfully. Its why Im scared!
But when I did get some from a friend, his feedback was so valuable, Inimplemented it right away! Not all but most!
And its especially important to have a varied pool of feedback. Some people that love your genre, some that are open to try and some that just hate it.
In web development, it's a general rule that developers should never be trusted to QA their own features. We'll always pick the happy path because we've done it over and over again. You need fresh eyes to try and break it, and provide feedback on where it needs polish.
I spent two years working on coding the core mechanics for my game, because I was in over my head and just slowly muddled through it. Don't be me and make this mistake. If there's something you're trying to do and it clearly seems too difficult, find someone who can help you. And if you decide to buy something off the Asset Store, make sure you do it early before you spend a lot of time trying to do it yourself, because the asset will very likely take a long time to learn how to use.
The fact that your atmosphere is what you nailed is a great sign. Its easier to change enemy AI than it is to totally redesign the art assets IMHO. This is all great feedback thought. Lots of great points to digest.
10 years without grey boxing? How the hell???
Crazy right?
This is great Thomas. I’d be very curious to see a video about how you made the enemies better ect. I feel like the glitter explosions🎉 need some more… juice.. more particles or somethin.
"Playing from start to finish" and " I don't want to see textures" perfect!! It's definitely all about the gameplay first!
9:43 intelligence ≠ knowledge
Good cut scenes and traditional tropes 👍
Really enjoyed this one Thomas, thanks! This one has some really solid practical advice. It definitely got me thinking I need to have more focus on play-testing my own game for a more substantial period before just trying to finish it asap.
Twisted tower looks amazing. I think it would be a bit more immersive if it were less gun play, and more like "little nightmares". For instance, instead of having the enemy just waiting in the hallway, you could have them working on something in the tower with the option to sneak past. Also changing each model slightly to create something that resembles a family could add to the spooky story and keep the gunplay interesting. Just some thoughts
That was some of the best advice I've heard from you, Thomas.
Every time I start "grey boxing" I always go into thinking "this will just be a grey box, no textures or assets" but then I always end up adding at least a few textures and a few assets...ugh.
Absolute truth, industry is kinda sucky right now, had an almost deal with 4 Publishers and they are providing everything else except FUNDING! 🙈🙈 I told them that I have quit my job and the game is featured on IGN channel yet still no luck so far. But I have my hopes up and really praying that it goes all well in the end for everybody out there who is trying to make it BIG! 💪
What's the name of your game? :)
4 publishers, it's pretty impressive already! How many wishlists do you have?
@@Galent41 my game is Sky Harvest and it has around ~2k wishlists
You are right on how the feedback feels. First time guys streamed a live playtest on Discord my game was in a broken state and I wanted to curl up and die. 🤣🙈
Thanks Thomas for sharing your experience, I've been following up with your development for years now and I like how you work things out. As for me I never played your game so I can't judge, but I always consider enemy types are so important for any game, they are the super stars of every game.
I believe a game should have at least 3 basic type enemy variations, add to it 2 or more "Brute" class enemy types, of course Bosses and sub-Bosses are very critical! I understand it can be a lot of work, but any FPS game type should have these in order to succeed. Unless you are a multiplayer shooter type! Hard puzzle level design is also crucial to make the game interesting, consider it like a boss level but a hard puzzle instead, or better: A mix of both!
Good luck and looking forward to trying your game when it's released :)
Quick 1 second change that will make the game feel better. Make it so you can break those boxes in 1 hit.
Happy to join a feedback session for some in depth feedback if you need another round of testing.
Started my game a month ago and these are some very helpful points. Loving the journey though!
Thanks Thomas❤
Designers only avoid feedback when they think the player experience is secondary to their wanting to make a game.
Also, lots of the things in this video are good examples of why people should develop for fun, get a job in a studio to learn professional practices and values, and *then* “go indie”. These things are presented as hard-won nuggets of wisdom; I learnt about early user testing in my first 3 months as a junior designer.
Thanks for the tips Thomas! I think I’m struggling with getting incomplete builds out in front of people, and keep waiting for that polished demo build that takes a long time doing it on the side.
Game Devs encountering DAU`s and PICNIC`s for the first time! Never forget the chair to keyboard interface has to work as well!
Absolutely agree with you. My question is - are you going to use Unity in another projects or do you want to drop this engine after last-year Unity scandal? I know you loved working with this engine (just like me) and I am curious what are you going to do after Unity's outrage?
Your insights are always so helpful. I can't wait to play the full game!
Jonathan Blow is just upset that his remaster of Braid didn't sell well
Very interesting, though I think your points in level design with "planning it out" is really dependent on the type of game you are making and your method of design. I am also developing a game, but as a level designer and artist, I find it much easier to make something, then hit that play button to test, and fine tweak as I go. As I paint, sculpt and place Inspiration comes to me.
I think you meant familiarity instead of intelligence.
#3 is kinda hard to get around
Thanks for the advice! Now I'm gonna review my whole game dev process😂
1:36 what did you mean by "Sooner"? When? Because testing a things unfinished, makes no sence, because people will complain about missing things, however testing when every feature is ready, is not a "sooner".
I think the best level design tip I have heard is from John Romero and that is to make the first level of your game last.
First lvl & ending cutscene because a good first impression is always key and if it ends with a bang you’ll def go away with a good feeling. But endings are mostly not the problem, however if you have a crappy ending ppl will always remember your game for it.
If you have a good story but fails to make a unique game with it, it means that you are basically writing a novel the whole time not making a game, you can take that story as a novel, if you think it's better that way. I used up my 2 years to realize that.
It is rough for sure. Our game release. Is right around the corner and I feel this big time.
I find greyboxing extremly hard in terms of swaping them out with the final art. Dont know how to get the correct dimensions/size and stuff
Plan them in the greyboxing stage
Real objects have specific measurements, consider these boxes "colliders" for these types of objects, and shape/scale them as close as possible to real life measurements
Any professional asset you use or designer would use real measurements too
To me, the biggest mistake would be working on a game for three years and spending 100s of thousands dollars and THEN getting closed beta feedback...Not sure if thats the full story of your game and i dont want to assume, but if it is, yeesh. Devs should get a prototype build working asap and get feedback early and often, no matter how confident you are in your game.
Question: how do you balance rhythm mechanics? I don't mean in a full game dedicated to rhythm genre, more like just certain abilities here and there that require proper input time in order to utilize it. For example, I watched painfully as my friend struggled pressing a single key every about 1s (that's all you have to do with that ability). There are visual ques in place as well, and it has a generous tolerance. Easy, simple, right? WRONG! It was a struggle. Is my friend just bad at this kind of gameplay? Am I doing something wrong?
how did you introduce this mechanic to the player?
7:54 "You shouldn't give a key and then find the locked door" Divine Divinity likes to speak a word with you 😂😉😄
I missed that quality of content, thank you so much for such quality of information about how to handle the demo of a commercial game!
Great reflections. Now, How do you get testers?
any way you can think of, friends, family, schools in your country that do something with games, or pay for it.
Great work man
One time I watched a whole video explaining what NOT to do when making a trailer. Then I started to plan my own trailer, and I thought to myself “ehh… I know what I’m doing. It would be so cool!” Then I proceeded to make the exact mistakes the whole video was telling me not to do.
Morale of the story: trust the judgement of the professionals who have been doing this for years.
You do not know what you are doing and your plan is not as awesome as you think.
Biggest game dev mistake and I think a common one - making the game too big, too unrealistic for my own capacity as a solo guy.
If you are trying to make money of any type of production, make sure you are not selling the art to yourself.
Waited for the sea of stars reference… 🤔
About the developer being "smarter" than the player: it's more like, the player is thrown into this abstract world, with who knows what kind of shenanigans waiting around each corner, and without knowledge of world rules. So... just tell the rules of the world, show how things work. Then show challenges that exist in this world.
Did you really have a character on a boat... Looking at a locket, heading towards a tower?
Where have I seen this before... Would you kindly remind me?
Thomas I have a question if you have time. So I have been trying to make games now for years but I am so bad at Art. This is not an exaggeration I’ve tried pixel Art, 2D and even 3D modeling in blender. Im so bad like drawing Mario graphics in Aesprite would take me years and it still looks bad. So to the question. How do I pay an artist if I can’t get backing because I still don’t have a demo because I can’t do the art? I have 3 kids, a wife and a ton of responsibilities. So it’s not like I can get money from anywhere else. I’m lucky to have $10 dollars to myself over a 12 month time span. Im started to feel and think really dark but I don’t know what to do. I need Art to show my idea to get backing to pay an artist it seems impossible. What do I do?
Make the art as simple as possible, but really good lighting can make your game look amazing, even if it's just boxes
It’s not hard right now bro it’s because there’s no creativity people want to enjoy those retro vibes when games were actual FUN.. now everything is single player the game play normally don’t keep the gamers attention so it’s not that the industry has issues the people making the game are the issues not being HIP TO WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT.. just like anything or a MOVIE if u want people to watch or tune in to your tv show u have to keep the HYPE so that’s all it is just that the world is watered down that people really don’t care to even look for the best best game anymore I know I felt like this with movies who else feels me movies are so boring nowadays the stories suck like every movie so Hollywood now like John wick 4 so theatrical to the point it was annoying so I think if the people making things directing things creating things are poor in ART THERE PASSION THEn u drown yourself just like DISNEY IS SLOWLY DROWNING AN SHOULD BURN
how the hell do you fix these things after so much work.
As a D&D Dungeon Master, I've learned the hard way that players usually get stumped on puzzles designed for toddlers
thank you thomas blush 😳
Preach :)
The reason for the 'decline' of the game dev industry is simple:
In 2020 (covid) the industry grew so large since so many more people who would normally not play games started playing to pass time, investors saw this rise and immediately threw billions of dollars into the industry, now the market has slowed down significantly and investors want out
video starts at 1:37 🗿🗿
hey dude, your audio is up and down through the video. Check mid then end.
Im actually kind of floored that you guys didnt whitebox your levels and test them before puting art in. If you watch any videos on people that have built games, they tell you that.
Regarding mistake #3, you mentioned that devs need to dumb themselves down and to watch people play their game to know how to do that, but you don't explain why that's important. Why is it important that we need to look at our game design as if we have the knowledge of an average player?
I imagine it's to better design levels and encounters to teach the players how to play and navigate the game, but that's just a guess. @thomasbrush, any thoughts?
Best introduction ever made for a mediocre game is Ryse: Son of Rome
Most game devs also lack any serious creativity. They're just redoing what's already been done with no unique twist, no hook, nothing special about their game. It's no different than making a piece of forgettable music
Not "smarter", more knowledgeable.
You have to many Avoid X number of mistakes in title video you should right What totally flopped about my new game twisted tower or Here are the feed back about my new game. The video is great and informative but the generic title is bad.
I love BioShock, but I have zero desire to even try this because of the "modern horror for kids"-looking enemies and a clown's mallet ...
I see you're going for the "Bioshock" vibe and audience, but why does it feel so silly/childish?
In Bioshock you use the wrench to save Ammo, to be more efficient, it wasn't silly but tense :(
How are you teaching other people to do game development if you're doing these basic mistakes?
Well there is one thing I noticed that every dude who has yt tring to make games is selling coarse how to make games xDD somehow I think it is actually the primary source of income for you guys.
Man... Idk if I'll be able to stomach the negative feedback when I put out my first demo for my first game. Sounds scary haha. Yolo though I guess
your graphics need to be better, if what you have now is final I'm afraid people will skip right past it
The amusing thing is that you said "for-tay" 100 times in this video and most people don't realise that 'forte' (e.g. this isn't my forte) is supposed to be pronounced 'fort'. It derives from the French forte (meaning strength), not the Italian forte (meaning loud).
Seriously dude who is not aware about blocking your level before making it pretty? I mean it should be obvious O__o The industry doing it for decades already.
Dozens of video on youtube about it and you still managed to fall in this trap...
And regarding players are stupid...
There's a rule "Test early - test often".
Playtesting should be a thing. Just invite someone to play the game, sit with a notepad on the side and silently watch how he plays your game and every time when player do something you were not expecting - write it down, do not give him hints until he stuck completely.
Valve was saying this more than 20 years ago. When half-life 2 was released.
You can invite your friends or just random people from the street to play your game. Or pay to some professional testers if you have money.
I started my game journey back in 2020 , made a couple of games work in very big mnc but know. I stuck in washroom waiting for someone to bring me toilet roll.... So if someone who living near new Orleans plse help me 🙏😭😭
A video I definitely needed!!
real.
Maybe it would be easier to sell games if devs focused on making good ganes instead of "diversity" etc
Actually this trend is going down. As a person who worked at Ubisoft I can confidently say that the main priority is to create well selling games(with or without diversity) so bosses could pay the bills and brag to shareholders how well everything is going. If you don't like diversity just don't buy such games. Diversity is not a problem, gamers dictate the rules, gamers buy games, we as developers cannot force you to buy our games, we just create what the market demands.
It’s not diversity that is the issue, but shareholders. Rather than take risks and go with the fun, companies are too scared to fail and want to appease shareholders over the players. Dei isn’t necessarily a good thing, but I play games with the ugliest characters known to man cause they’re fun.
I blame artists , in 2000s artists were anti - Christians and drew demons ,half naked women , and put blood and gore everywhere to annoy conservative people, while boomers hated these games teenagers loved them , now loads of gamers are on their 30s and dont care about the non binary characters they make for "boring gardening 3" , now they are hated by 90%+ of ppl
If they didn't sell, they wouldn't make them. And when I hear people complain about statistically under represented minorities getting some time in the spot light, all I hear is "I'm to fragile in my own skin to have other people that aren't like me represented." The social norms have been represented forever, it is time to give minority groups their time and let them know we see them and they have just as powerful stories to tell as we do. We are all human, and we should all see ourselves reflected in our favorite medium at some point. If you disagree, just don't buy the game.
@hold_the_mike they don't sell and smaller studios pay the price.
I feel like, you just create the same content over and over.
What I took away from this video:
I'm a scared little manchild who is hesitant about getting feedback and improving.
I didnt research game design and so didnt know about greyboxing until 10 years later. (What!?)
I think people are idiots and I am 2/3 smarter than everyone else.
Way to go buddy. I used to like your videos but this is some stupid ass stuff. Maybe it is just the way your are wording it or coming across but this is not good.
The game industry sucks right now because it has been infected with ideology and most gamers don't want any of it. When you make shitty games that dont sell, or even critically acclaimed games that dont sell, expect to lose your job. Ubisoft drama anyone. Helldivers drama anyone? SBI ANYONE? You talk about the game industry like you actually know whats going on yet these layoffs are A GOOD THING, cut the chaff, trim the fat. Sure c-suit always gona screw people over for their bonuses but that doesn't excuse pissing of the majority of the gaming demographic by making crap most of us dont want and then calling us ists and phobes because we don't drink the coolaid. To quote MR Swoll "Do Better".
Lol this comment.
it might just be the way he worded it, otherwise his reasoning is very factual.
Simply working on a game for too long (#2 is slightly concerning) will cause any of these problems.
IF you are the intended audience of indie dev, (not just a normal gamer). this is really important advice.
edit: he specifically means indie game industry, the AAA game industry you are talking about is a different story.
My guy, it's an indie dev giving advice to other indie devs. Most indie devs don't include woke ideology in their games, they have different problems, for example not knowing basic things that can improve their workflow like greyboxing.
@@unrealredist4124 I am in the process of making my own game and listen to / watch a lot of dev content. Not just a gamer. If you think the A and AA space is not just as bad as the top, I'd say look at the games and studios that failed and why. Also, when he was talking about layoffs in the industry, it is across the spectrum right? Because too many take the funding.. Take the grants... Take the investments.. Not a lot of indie devs do it alone and fully self financed.
I may have been a little obnoxious or worded my own comment a little rudely but that doesnt negate the argument.
If I worked in carpenty for a decade but didnt know what sanding was, what would you call me?
If I said I was smarter than most people who will play my game, what kind of word word would best describe my attitude?
And all he said is "this comment" Nice...
I passed a guy today who was stumbling down the side of the road drunk and rambling incoherently about the government and then screaming at a tree that he was gonna beat its ass.
This comment has the same energy.
Idk what you watched but I understood his point just fine.