The Hunter’s Mark, Hanged Men, and the Source of Old Blood
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
- In this episode of Bloodborne Fear the Old Lore, we take a look at what inspired the Hunter's Mark, Hanged Men, and what may be the source of the Old Blood.
Special shout-out to Sophie Pilbeam (aka Jerk Sans Frontieres) and zephid7 for their work since it helped guide my thoughts related to impurity, stagnation, fluids, and layers of the dream.
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Link to my Japanese to English Retranslations of Bloodborne's text:
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0:00 - Introduction
0:18 - Spoiler Warning
0:34 - The Dying Wills of Blood
2:01 - The Dead's Attraction to Life
3:14 - The Blood - Pure or Profane?
4:02 - Losing the Ability to Reproduce by Evolving Beyond Man
4:33 - The Blood's Origins
5:21 - Why is the Blood only in Yharnam?
6:29 - The Hunter's Mark or a Hanged Man?
6:59 - Blood, Thicker than Water
8:31 - The Effects of Stagnation, Impurity, and Losing One's Humanity
10:02 - Blood and Death
10:53 - Alternate Interpretations of the Source of the Blood
11:39 - The Cosmic Power of Caryll Runes
12:11 - Blood Echoes and Hanged Men
13:02 - Outro 
Игры
The hunter's mark is also found in the tendril ends of the Moon Presence, and the upside-down corpses on sticks from Hemwick
Didn't know about the tendrils 😱
The Hunter’s Mark is basically FromSoftware’s version of the Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk. The Brand serves a few purposes: It marks one as a sacrifice for the demonic Apostles, makes the bearer able to walk within the interstice between the mundane world and the supernatural, and, most importantly to this discussion, it draws the attention of spirits.
Ghosts, monsters, and all other manner of supernatural beings are drawn to the bearer of the Brand. Perhaps, in the world of Bloodborne, the Hunter’s Mark was actually a ceremonial symbol that could draw spirits - I.e., Blood Echoes/Messengers - to the bearer of the Mark. How it became associated with the occupation of Hunter, I’m not sure, but theoretically, an individual may have been branded with this Rune in order to make them a natural vessel for Blood Echoes.
Thanks, Last Protagonist, for keeping the discussion around this game alive, and constantly finding new avenues to explore. About a month ago, I was actually going down a rabbit hole out of frustration that I didn’t know who the mother of Gwyn’s kids was. Then you came out with a video that gave some brilliant new evidence to satisfy my curious brain. Keep up the inspiring work! I think I’d go Hollow without the likes of you.
Great take on it! I whole heartedly agree! Also, with the rune taking the shape of the brand of sacrifice, and with berserks emphasis on chasing one's dream and having to crush others dreams in the process, I see it as a way of the PC taking on the deads dreams and will, and it being called the hunters dream makes it seem even more likely
Also come to think of it, even the idea of people turning into beasts is SO berserk!!! Just like the apostles, the nietzschean idea of the shadow overtaking the person. Losing control of yourself and falling into beasthood. Their denial of their humanity in lieu of what they deem higher than themselves, turning their back on their shadow. The blood echoes could be the last traces of a person's will, their last lingering yearning left behind. All having their own reasons for living, their own "will". Maybe inspired by Viktor frankles take on life, being a far brighter one than nietzsches, seeing life as something you have to give meaning to, as you do with all souls games. Sorry for the rant, I'm high and couldn't quite figure out how to put what I think into words 😅 😂
The "Hunter" Caryll Rune, the Hunter's Mark, Blood Echoes, the symbol of the "hanged man" and, indeed, the hanged men themselves, appear to be based on the 12th Rider-Waite Major Arcana tarot card "The Hanged Man".
This tarot card depicts a man being hanged upside-down with one ankle tied to a Tau cross (the same kinda crosses that the Beasts in Yharnam are strung up to, and also the same kinda crosses that can be found in the area where Gehrman is fought). This method of hanging was a common execution method at the time for traitors in Italy, but the serene expression on the Hanged Man's face suggests that he is in this hanged position by his own choice, and the card is meant to represent self-sacrifice more so than it does corporal punishment or criminality. The hanged man has one leg folded in behind his tied leg, his arms are tied to his back so that his elbows protrude at the sides and he has a halo around his head, representing new insight, awareness and enlightenment gained through seeing the world from a new perspective. The Hanged Man is also wearing red pants representing human passion and the physical body, and a blue vest for knowledge and the psyche.
In the Major Arcana, The Hanged Man is the card of ultimate surrender, of being suspended in time and of martyrdom and sacrifice for the greater good. Right-side-up, the card represents surrender, letting go, sacrifice, wisdom, pause, circumspection, discernment, trials, intuition, divination, prophecy and new perspectives. When reversed, the card instead represents selfishness, delays, resistance, stalling, indecision, the crowd and body politic.
Within the context of Bloodborne, The Hanged Man not only represents Gehrman, the First Hunter, and his role as the Dream's Host quite perfectly, it also represents the Hunters, and their Hunt for insight, as a whole...
Notably, while The Hanged Man is the 12th card of the Major Arcana, the 13th card is Death, which almost perfectly symbolizes our final confrontation with Gehrman: Death represents endings (as in, Multiple Endings), beginnings (as in, New Game+), change (us taking Gehrman's place), rebirth and transformation (literally, if we've got three Umbilical Cords) and inner purging (Gehrman's atonement).
Very cool info! I hadn't considered the hanged man tarot but this all fits: Hunters know they will one day die or go blood-drunk; many likely submitted to "sky burial" to avoid becoming the very things they hunted, as noted by your comment about "serene surrender" in the hanged man.
As the beasts are the inverse of this, being strung up upright and likely against their will, does the inverse of the hanged man tarot offer additional insight?
@@victoriousf.i.g.3311 Hmm, that is a very good question. As I said, the inverted Hanged Man represents selfishness, delays, resistance, stalling, indecision, the crowd and body politic. Personally, I'd say that "the crowd" and "body politic" can _easily_ represent the Healing Church institution as a whole. And considering the implications that beasthood befalls those who succumb to their own base beastly minds and instincts, coupled both with the fact that clerics transformed into the most hideous beasts, as well as the info provided in the Student set's description; "The Healing Church has its roots in Byrgenwerth, and naturally borrows heavily from its uniform design. The focus not on knowledge, or thought, but on pure pretension would surely bring Master Willem to despair, if only he knew", I feel like the implication is that the Healing Church was basically the opposite of the "true" Hunters...
Ergo, while The Hanged Man represents surrender, letting go, sacrifice, wisdom, pause, circumspection, discernment, trials, intuition, divination, prophecy and new perspectives, the Healing Church rejected such virtues in favour of pretentious religious dogmas and doctrines for the sake of the selfish pursuit of transcendence, inadvertently promoting beasthood in the process.
As for the "delays, resistance, stalling and indecision" stuff that the inverted Hanged Man represents, it just makes me think of that lore note we find in the Lecture Building: "Master Willem was right. Evolution without courage will be the ruin of our race." Clearly the Healing Church didn't get that memo, because rather than courageously attempting to transcend humanity on their own, the Healing Church rejected also the notion of self-sacrifice, instead opting for turning the entire populace of Yharnam into Guinea Pigs so that the clergy could slowly, stallingly attempt to find a safe way for themselves to transcend humanity.
All of this is _way_ more speculative than my assertion that the Hunter rune/Blood Echoes symbol is based on and represents The Hanged Man, (there's _a lot_ of tarot symbolism in Bloodborne, this much is true beyond reasonable doubt, and "Hunter" corresponding to The Hanged Man is pretty obvious with that in mind,) but the inverted Hanged Man's relation to beasts and stuff is still definitely a question worth considering.
Wow, you just blew my mind! I'd love to learn more about tarot symbolism; is there a book or site you could recommend?
@@elizabethloomis12 Want to see me blow your mind again?
The struggle between the Healing Church and the Cainhurst Vilebloods is heavily based on Kegare and Harae/Misogi. Kegare is a Shinto concept that can be roughly translated as "Impurity" or "Filth" and which is closely associated with bloodshed, most significantly menstrual blood. Kegare is also said to be the source and product of all misery in the world, from simple unhappiness (something "impure" has made you unhappy and the fact that you're unhappy produces "impurity" which makes other people unhappy because you are unhappy) to physical and psychological disease (physical diseases spread via contagions and many psychological diseases can make those afflicted with them, as well as those in their presence, miserable) to mortality (no-one gets happier from those we love growing old and senile) and death itself (the greatest toll and product of Kegare there is). Harae/Misogi is in turn spiritual cleansing rituals meant to rid oneself of as much as possible of one's Kegare.
The Cainhurst Vilebloods embrace this impurity, hence their Covenant Rune, "Corruption." The Rune itself is based upon the Tarot card "The Devil," which represents the shadow self, attachment, addiction, restriction, sexuality (consider that Arianna is strongly implied to be a Vileblood) and, when inverted, the exploration of dark thoughts, detachment and releasing oneself from limiting beliefs (such as religious dogmas). The card itself depicts Baphomet, who originally represented the balance between good and evil, male and female, and human and beast. Baphomet has the wings of a vampire bat, an animal that sucks the lifeblood out of its prey, symbolic of what happens when you give in to your raw desires -- also very appropriate given that the Vilebloods are the closest things to true, Bram Stokerian vampires you can find in Bloodborne -- and a hypnotic stare which entrances those who come near him, bringing them under his power, much how those who come before Queen Annalise tend to become her subjects. Above Baphomet is an inverted pentagram - a sign of the darker side of magic and occultism (incidentally, the "Eye" Rune of Master Willem is based upon a right-side-up pentagram) and at his feet stand a man and a woman, both naked and chained to the podium on which Baphomet sits. They appear to be held here against their will but if you look closer you'll notice that the chains around their necks are loose and could easily be removed, indicating that they choose to remain by The Devil. Both have small horns on their head, a sign that they are becoming increasingly like the devil the longer they stay by his side (much like how your reward for staying by Annalise's side is to partake of her rotted blood, turning _you_ ever more defiled the longer you stay connected to her Covenant). Both the man and the woman have tails, a further symbol of their animalistic tendencies and raw instincts, and the grapes and the fire on their respective tails signify pleasure and lust (the Vilebloods being said to Hunt for pleasure and to sate their own bloodlust).
On a related note there is also Valtr's "Impurity" Rune, which is based upon "The Lovers," which also shows a naked man and woman, but these two are standing beneath Raphael, the angel of love, who represents both physical and emotional healing and who blesses the man and woman and reminds them of their union with the Divine -- The League is, if one's to judge by Yamamura's mantra, a faction of the Healing Church. The couple stand in a beautiful landscape, reminiscent of the Garden of Eden, and behind the woman stands a tall apple tree with a snake winding its way up the trunk, symbolically representing the temptation of sensual pleasures that may take one's focus away from the Divine, while, behind the man, is a tree of flames, which represent passion, the primary concern of the man (Valtr seems a little bit _too_ into the idea of cleansing Yharnam's streets of all kinds of filth). Indeed, the man looks to the woman, who in turn watches the angel, showing the path of the conscious to the subconscious to the super-conscious, or from physical desire to emotional needs to spiritual concerns. The volcanic mountain in the background is also rather phallic and represents the eruption of passion that happens when man and woman meet in full frontal nudity... In this way, "The Lovers"/"Impurity" not only contrasts "The Devil"/"Corruption," it _complements_ it, much like how the Confederates of the League have much more emotionally and philosophically in common with the Vilebloods than they probably care to admit... Oh yeah and also, the "Vermin" that the Rune allows you to see? They are centipedes/Mukade, which are very closely associated with Kegare.
Now, about my sources: Aside from the obvious wikipedia option, I primarily use biddytarot.
Very interesting stuff, thank you!
You have, without question, the absolute best BB lore videos. Take your time but keep these coming. There's many a BB twitch streamer who could learn something from your content.
I HOPE this is shade towards Zeus cuz lord knows he could use a little more thrown his way 😂
@@foster2095 I didn't say anything about toast! Good Day to you sir! GOOD DAY!
Sinclair lore was good but thece fallen so far from glory at this point
@@foster2095 agreed
your work delving into the translations is very enlightening for those of us who dont speak Japanese. ive been watching all of your bloodborne videos and its fascinating to learn about some of the clearer and more obvious things that got missed in localization. of course even at times the original text is not clear, but thats kind of the way of these games. i greatly appreciate your work, and glad to see new bloodborne videos still being made. it seems most people who cover these topics, while very creative, tend to stray from the info provided and wander into wild unfounded conjecture. its nice to see someone staying closer to the information at hand, although i do enjoy your occasional speculations as well.
The hanging body simbolysm could have another origin. It was a method to drain corpses/people of blood. First the blood would rush towards the head, because of gravity. Then you slice the thorat or remove the head entirely and the corpse drains rather quick.
There was another video I watched years ago that mentioned this. I can't remember who it was, but all credit goes to him/them.
Edit: So this method was pure convenience, instead of prudcing more potent blood.
Edit 2: There is theory that the "blasphemous" part of the Yharnam burial is that the organs get harvested after death for chalice rituals.
Another possible interpretation that me and a friends tought some times ago, when we found out that in a variant of queen Yahrnam arena, the altar has the Hunter rune inscribed upon it.
It has to do with Eileen and Mergo wet nurse: we thought that when Yahrnam gave birth to Mergo, Pthumerians were already in the phase where they no longer serve the great ones (or at least, not any of them do that anymore). So maybe some of them tried to assault Mergo/Yahrnam, in search for blood or some way to ascend like their ancient masters, while some others tried to protect them with the aid of the wet nurse. After all the rune is given to us by Eileen, a hunter of hunters: not only she resemble the wet nurse in her outfit and weapons, but isn't the hunters duty - at least of the ones tangled by the dream - to hunt down Mergo? So the hunter rune is something much more ancient than Caryll, and was passed upon to Phtumerians by the wet nurse (in the sense that they already figured out that symbols can incarnate the sounds of great ones and so forged the first rune).
In Norse mythology, there is a curious title that can be found occasionally in the Eddas. Odin, chieftain of the Æsir is sometimes referred to as the "God of the Hanged Men/Man". Its something of a bizarre reference to one particular story in which Odin had hung himself from one of the branches of Yggdrasil in order to (depending on the translation and version of the story) either read the Runes or obtain them. Regrettably this is more or less the only surviving part of that particular story and as such we are missing effectively all context as to why Odin needed to do this, and we also do not know why this makes him the "God of the Hanged Men". The title is believed by some historians to possibly be a sort of gallows humor by the Norse, as the Eddas are replete with similar off color jokes and references.
Bloodborne is full of runes bearing power, hanged men, and similarly named god like entity, so this connection is likely just as fleeting as the lost Norse tale but I did not notice it mentioned so I though the story would be worth making note of.
@@timidwildone Ty. Fromsoft does a really good job with blending different mythologies and religions to create some very interesting worlds. I am very curious to see how Elden Ring's lore turns out as the art design is a real banger.
Something very interesting that this got me thinking about was that you can have a technically unlimited amount of blood echoes - but without getting your first Insight and awakening the doll, you cannot use them to become stronger.
Food for thought.
need more eyes
Awesome point about the different densities of blood and mercury pooling in the brain; I think the whole mercury theme is a reference to Minamata (the industrial catastrophe [see: Redgrave]) and Raseśvara (the Shaivist Hindu practice of using Mercury to commune with Shiva).
Livor mortis is referenced in DS3 by Livid Pyromancer Dunnel, so it seems important.
Edit: Misspelled raseśvara, shouted out Redgrave
*googling while reading* thaaaaaaaaaaaaaank youuuuuu
@@dannywest8843 The Minamata idea is taken from Redgrave's Oedon video (v. enjoyable).
The hunter's mark, the fact that many hunters cover up one eye, and the name sake of Oedon chapel all make me this of the story of Odin. How he hung himself upside down on the world tree and sacrificed an eye for, power was it?
I think it was for Knowledge. But they do say Knowledge is Power.
Just gonna point out that hanging things by the feet and cutting it’s throat (or by the looks of it in BB just taking the entire head off) is a common way of draining blood from a carcass
hell yeah! yesterday i watched your series, a 2nd time and now, a brand new video!
praise it baby!
and "fear the old lore!"
It's addictive. Like THE BLOOD.
I always appreciate your concise and dense videos. You cover so much in so short a time that I have to re-watch it to process all your points, which is great. Other channels and videos cover half your content in twice as long! Very well done, as always.
My reasoning for the hanged corpses is that it makes all the blood go down to the brain, were the consciousness once lied and thus, making that blood when drained, contain the will of the person/human/thing
The proverb actually goes, "The Blood of the Covenant is thicker than the Water of the Womb."
Which adds some context to the whole "great ones having babies via surrogate wombs" thing.
I cannot express how grateful I am for these thoughtful explorations I hope people never stop talking about this game
The hanged man is in the same position of a butchered hog being bled out. The blood literally comes from people being harvested.
The bag on the wrist could be for catching run off.
Redgrave had some very cool takes on the Hunters mark early on - namely that it represents an individual being "picked out" by a great one (namely the moon presence) for a task - with the rune etched into your mind as the brand. (One might consider the Brand from Berserk to)( This makes sense considering the drawn version of the mark that you get from specific characters, Djura, Eileen for some, who've lost the mark, but 'vaguely' remember it.)
Supposedly the Pthumerians Mightve connected to a great one to and learned the mark then - more generally the hanged man represents a change and task the person 'willingly' takes up to grow - a period one needs to get through and best - in this case, more generally, maybe like a mission.
So "Hunter" likely picks out the Hunters in Yharnam, but also "one picked out by a great one".
On stagnation and corruption of water I think it was JSF, maybe Redgrave who I first heard break down how Yharnam is essentially stuck in time, in the hunt, and thus things "rot" like a pool of stagnant water. I think he specifically spoke to the translation of corruption and how it points to that sort of stagnation through corruption like parasites(VERMIN) in still water.
The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. That's the whole saying and it makes sense in relation to Bloodborne. From the contract 'covenant' at the beginning, to the infant great one in one of the endings.
Alright so it's Hanged Men? Goddammit Bloodborne why are you so secretive
You do a great job thanks for this ! :)
It’s amazing how much gets lost in translation. And not just with translation, but with plays on words we couldn’t possibly pick up on in English, like with what they seemed to be doing with “ishi”. Connecting what exactly Blood Echoes are and do with the source of what what gives the Old Blood its power isn’t something I think I would have ever thought of. I, like a lot of people, thought it somehow came from the Great Ones because of where we find Ebrietas in the Waking World; I assumed that she was the “holy medium” in the tombs that the Healing Church found that Alfred mentioned when asked about Byrgenwerth. We do find her in the Isz chalice dungeon, so that’s why I assumed she was the medium in question. Speaking of (could be you’ve already answered this question before and I’m just forgetting), do you have any theories on what exactly the holy medium was? I guess the idea that it was Ebrietas isn’t out of the question, but she isn’t the source of the Old Blood that was discovered by the Church. That much seems clear now.
It's a bit clearer in Japanese Alfred's referring to the body of Laurence since it's what's literally "enshrined" in the Grand Cathedral and serves as the "source" of the Healing Church's blood healing.
@@LastProtagonist If that’s the case, then why does he say that the Byrgenwerth scholars discovered the medium in the tombs? I know Laurence was from Byrgenwerth, so in discovering what the Ptumerians did with blood, did he become the Church’s medium?
@@micahmartin7759 That's the way I would interpret events, yes. If we were to compare it to vampires, it'd be like Laurence found blood in the tombs, took it, and then spread his tainted blood to the people of Yharnam through the Healing Church.
Alfred's English dialogue makes it sound like the medium itself is present in the Cathedral, but here's a more literal interpretation of his text:
ただ、私のような狩人は、教会の内情に詳しくはないのですが⋯
血の救い、その源となる聖体は、大聖堂に祀られていると聞いています
However, hunters like me are not particular to the inner workings of the Church (but)...
(for) blood ministration, I've heard the holy body it originates from is enshrined within the Grand Cathedral.
There's also a note in the Grand Cathedral which mentions vicars are "heirs" to blood ministration, indicating the "lineage" of the Healing Church can be traced back to Laurence.
@@LastProtagonist Gotcha. Thanks. Makes sense now. Love your videos, man.
@@LastProtagonist Amazing! Do you think Lawrence is the headless Blood-letting beast we encounter in the dungeons? After the DLC, that theory is considered descredited by many, but i still think that the Blood-letting beast is meant to represent something very important and is not just another random beast. All facets of it looks too intentional. I'm still pretty convinced that the Blood-letting beast is the source (or at least one source) of the church's blood.
I love the amount of words containing "eye"
Choir - cw eye r.
Ebrietas - ebr eye tas
Great Isz- great eyes
Vile Blood/ blood vile - v eye all blood
Insight - ins eye t
Another amazing video.
The hanged man, hanging dead but not laid to rest. The blood hungering so much that it will leave its own vessel, echoing for revenge maybe? It could also symbolize how blood “rises” to their head(ego) in the hunters case.
*hits blunt* yeeeeaaaa
Edit: also, another great vid
Such a great series I enjoy this a lot
9:09 Trickle-down economics. So... you are saying Reagan was a Pthumerian? Wow. This is some deep lore.
Mister Rom, tear down this ritual seal
Best Bloodborne video
A will so great it transcends reality.....wow! Mind blown!
I still believe it ultimately originates from the Great Ones. I think consuming it changes the person who consumes it, then in turn the consumption of that person’s blood can change others in a similar way. That change being the formation of Blood Echoes within. That explains why these traits are unique to Yharnam in the world of Bloodborne
Great video bud
Just want to point out that although 最初 means, "First, Original" I've seen some things asserting that it can mean, "Alpha." Alpha in relation to animals means, "highest rank in a hierarchy of dominance." This would make Gehrman, The Best Hunter(maybe I'm off base, but I also thought I remembered that in Japan there is a trope about prototypes and originals being the best). This interpretation would also make sense, since he has canonically met with the Moon Presence, and he has been adopted as its surrogate. Keep in mind that it may also be possible that the Hunters were also once called something different.
As far as where the blood comes from, it has always been my assumption that neither Yharnam, nor Ailing Loran were the first places to contend with Great Ones and the blood. There's a certain amount of information we are never supposed to know, nor figure out, as all trails of clues do eventually lead to dead ends. It's also quite possible that the Kin and the Great Ones that we deal with in Bloodborne aren't even the first Great Ones to be about. Imagine, if you will, that the original coldblood comes from something they themselves do not fully understand.
We also don't truly understand why they want to reproduce. That is a beastly urge, after all, and you would think that "advancement" would render it inert or unnecessary. It seems though, that not even the Great Ones are beyond that biological imperative.
Very good.
Very good indeed.
A lot of mystical traditions do connect the afterlife with sacred mysteries/wisdom. Even in old religions that don't really have much surviving evidence of a mystical tradition do have suggestions of that, like how in Germanic mythology Odin sacrifices himself to himself to gain wisdom, or the way seers who have died have the greatest perception. That may even be what makes the "children of blood" like Mergo special enough to attract the Great Ones, they're born with enough blood echoes to be connected to both the waking world and the spirit world and so the Great Ones want to adopt them.
I don't know if this was already debunked or not, but I've been told the vails contain menstrual blood (moons blood) from members of the Healing Church who commune with Oedon, hence the steady supply. This ties in nicely with the emphasis on the moon, childbirth, blood and cycles.
I’m sitting down on a chair and ready to have my dinner, I’m opening RUclips and… TADAAAAAM
I still think Great One blood is important for similar reasons, but at the same time I don't think that its the only thing that's important, I think its just one way to get a lot of will-bearing blood quickly. Part of Bloodborne is the fact that such blood is rare and scarce and often times not easily used without becoming a mushroom or cauliflower or a dog or a protoplasm. But, this idea does in fact complete one of my theories pretty nicely: The reason Queen Yharnam is powerful enough to persist beyond death and wherever in the dream she wants is because she made herself a Great One through purely human blood.
I wonder if blood echos are an analogue for comsuming others to live- as you touched on in your capital city of sin / profaned capital video.
Perhaps it's in the act of the hunt and consumption of prey and there by consumption of the prey's will to live, that the hunter enriches their own will to live/ carry on.
Like the strength we get from food comes at the loss of our food which had previously been living to flourish itself- just as if we are attacked by a starving animal and become the hunter, our wills to live get sacrificed to that animal.
Damn I'm impressed
Great video, congratulations!
Regarding the impurity/kegare of Pthumerian and Vilebloods shared with beasts even though they aren't labelled as beasts themselves (save for the madmen in Pthumeru dungeons, who take extra damage from serrated weapons and other forms of damage effective against beasts according to the wiki), I believe it has something to do with the mention of "decadent art" in the Knight Garb description, refeering to the people killing beasts. According to Top Hat description, beauty is one of the qualities that prevent hunters "from becoming something else" (in other words, turning into beasts), and I think this importance given to "decadent art" falls into the category of beauty.
After exchanging on the subject, I came to an agreement with the definition of stagnation meaning "failure to evolve or continue" being relevant to BB and FS games as a whole, since beasthood caused by stagnation is implied to be a regressive state of man by Micolash, Fauxsefka, Willem, etc. I saw in your translation sheet that part of the Impurity Rune desc (so Stagnation rune in JP) that the use of "stagnation" or "human dregs" also means downfall of man. Can you confirm that the description can be read as somethign like "vermin/bugs are the source of man's downfall/regression" ?
Thank you in advance and, once again, good job.
It depends how deeply you want to read into the idea of "downfall," or "regression," but it says they're the source of man's stagnation. This is linked to the idea of things settling down in the depths of water, allowing sediment to settle. Since it's dirty and whatnot, that's probably where they got the idea to call it "Impurity" in English.
I'm reading your tranlation and I'm really enjoying it with your videos! one thing that you mencioned a couple of times is that there is a conection between Gehrman and Cainhurst (besides Maria) and I cannot find where is mentioned. Can you tell me? is cut content?
Yes. In earlier drafts of the story before Maria was a thing, the Doll was based on Queen Annalise. Additionally, Willem said it was Gehrman who betrayed him, and if we take into consideration Alfred's dialogue about a scholar bringing blood to Cainhurst, things start matching up.
How much of that is meant to be read in the final game is up for interpretation.
@@LastProtagonist Thank you. I was reading tyour translations of the descriptions of Gehrman and Maria's outfits and made me think that it was Maria the one infatuated with Gehrman, not the other way around as most people think. And also that manic curiosity...
I always thought blood echo’s were the echos of the persons things life/soul found in blood
The videos that you recommended in the beginning: could you link them in the description on pin a comment?
The Crow Hunter set explains that Sky Burial (hanging the hunters) was preferable to blasphemous Yharnam death rituals (paraphrased). My take here was that hanging the hunters upside down allowed the beastly blood to drain out of them, ensuring that they would not return as beasts.
That beasts are crucified upright suggests the inverse, so perhaps there's some significance to the blood running over/into the mind of the upside down deceased?
The game suggests, at least to me, that Laurence and Willem are wrong; transcendence can't be obtained through insight or blood alone; a hunter must gather a significant amount of both to transcend. It requires both the stillness of insight (insinuated by Willem's final form being sedentary and even voiceless) and the kinetic energy of blood (insinuated via violent transformation and instinctual behaviors) to transcend base humanity.
Again, these are my takes, but might be good for discussion or help with future vids!
In real buddhist practice, sky burial doesn't involve hanging, but instead laying the corpse in a mountain or in a type of altar (Dakhma), so carrion birds can spot the corpse easily. I think the decapitation + hanging + exanguination + organ harvesting combo of Yharnam is the blasphemous ritual Eileen refers to.
Totally agree with your second part.
@@juanausensi499 Thanks for clarifying Sky Burial! The info about sky burial in the real world adds to the metaphor in Bloodborne.
When hunters become too blood-drunk, the hunters of hunters, or crows, come to feast on their remains by taking them out. The Crow gains the 'dying will of the blood', sustaining themselves and carrying some part of the slain forward, much as carrion birds feasting on human corpses allows the body to be useful to nature.
Goddamn. At first I was like, well the idea that human blood is innately empowered by a la Dark Souls seems to conflict with or make redundant the eldritch horror, that people were injecting themselves with eldritch blood. But being able to harness the combined leftover energy of the dead is no less eldritch and cool, and it’s actually a reason for humanity showing up on the Great Ones’ radar to begin with, as opposed to the Great Ones arbitrarily choosing humanity to host their children. It also mechanically links BB with DS which I find FromSoft to do (evolving but ultimately making mechanics consistent across titles). Def still thinking about this but you’ve got me. I still think both origins of blood can work together and that perhaps the eldritch blood only projects or boosts the energy from the amassing of the wills of the dead, simply adding onto the existing mechanic as you’ve described
Edit: this has challenged yet another assumption that the Great Ones are just unknowable cosmic entities, yet they’re clearly all afflicted with a very betraying flaw, the compulsion to propagate themselves, hold grudges, etc. Ascension has only created new problems for them, they are powerful can literally project their will and make it reality yet are stagnant and imbalanced. Why is the Hunter ascending considered “a next step for humanity” then and the other Great Ones considered separate from humanity? Did the Hunter alone ascend via Wilhelm’s method of eyes and enlightenment, based on the fact that we derive our enlightenment from the physical results (cords) of interactions between humans and Great Ones? The Moon Presence is clearly a Great One but still beast like and exploitative, not very zen. So we’re not the first to ascend, maybe the first to ascend in a balanced way?
Also remember that the main reason for the beasy plague is because of.the curse placed upon byrgenwerth by the inhabitants of the fishing hamlet
God dammit you're good.
Eyes
Dude, I’ve heard from Redgrave that it’s no point in seeking mistranslations in bloodborne because original text was written in English. Though I like your lore discoveries much more, than his, I’m a bit worried. Do you know something about it?
It's really misguided to say the game is written in English first when the game was made by Japanese developers and clearly lists an English localization team in its credits. If the game were written in English first, then translated into Japanese, wouldn't there be credits included for the Japanese localizers?
@@LastProtagonist he said that “handwritten scrawl” is not necessarily a note that protagonist left for himself, it could be yosefka’s note for herself or blood minister or someone else I don’t remember. His argument was that text was originally written in English, because NO WAY localizers could have miss such an important detail and misguide everybody, so they just decided to not mention at all that this note is written for oneself’s.
@@littlenimrod3373 No other way to say it than he's wrong. The Korean aligns with the Japanese, and neither talk about "transcending" the Hunt in the way the English implies.
@@LastProtagonist I think both languages are important and they employ wordplay from each.
Miyazaki has said he does take ideas from Frognation.
I think that it reflects the Heideggerian concept of Lethia and Alethia, where Truth conceals itself as it reveals itself.
Edit: That being said, FN isn't infallible and are known to make mistakes
@@LastProtagonist Yeah, i've just seen video where Hidetaka is being awarded with Golden Joystick and he speaks Japanese with an english translator. So it's very unlikely that a man with this level of english makes an english script with a level of Bloodborne :)
Man I am writing a book on what you are speaking about here, I have got the answers missing in this puzzle, do you think you would like a 50 - 50 collaboration is something like 3 months? That is the time it will are me to finish the book, let me know :)
Easiest way to have a dialogue is via the Discord channel linked in the description
@@LastProtagonist thanks for the answer, I will surely do when I am ready, you will not regret it a bit
hmmm, but what about the blood that are used by yharnam citizens?
are they also harvested from dead people? it seems that when someone has consumed healing blood they can give it to other people and it seems that you only get blood echoes if you kill someone
It seems to came from blood saints like Adella.
But some people say the blood of blood sinners is tastier...
But don’t they say the blood comes from the great ones like ebrietas
The problem with "Blood Echoes" is that it's too obtuse. "Lifeblood" would be a far more analogous translation.
Ironic then that Coldblood is called "Deathblood" in Japanese
Alfred says they "found a holy medium deep within the tomb", which led to the foundation of blood healing. I've presumed that the holy medium was a physical object, either some blood itself, or a chalice that could be used to create blood, or the bodily remains of a great one. If you presumed, instead, that the holy medium wasn't an object at all, but the practice of hanging men upside down to collect blood in their heads, this theory could make some sense. Mostly, I think it's contradicted by almost every signal in the game, and thinking that the Old Blood may not come from a great one is a bad theory. It could help if we looked at the Japanese version of Alfred's dialogue to see what word they use for "Holy Medium" and whether that word specifies a physical object or not.
I think this "Old Blood doesn't come from Great Ones" hypothesis is pretty low-quality and poorly substantiated, requiring not just connecting insubstantial evidence but also ignoring more substantial evidence that competes with it, and is the lowest quality content I've seen from you, significantly worse than your other work, which I find much more compelling and substantiated.
the blood dregs are full of sperms and you can is it in the description why this make sense if its only about blood echoes?why you take blood dregs and just cold blood to give it to arriana if how you claim is the same thing?a lot of unswareded questions.my interpetation is this that answers all of this
www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/oz1zyw/laurence_and_the_vilebloods/?
13:20 I disagree. It doesn't say that they didn't have audience until the Choir existed. It merely says that it enabled them to have audience with her.
The old blood or the good blood are all different bloods and not blood echoes.you explain good about the blood echoes but you are trying to tying them with the old blood when it doesnt make sense at all and thats why you use a lot of times the word "assume".
The main blood that started all is the the mercurial essense that we see in the intro cinematic being pured in to laurence skull.the blood of oedon.
www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/j0w799/oedonazothain_sophschamayimprima_materia_and_the/?
I disagree, and elaborate on why I think there aren't different kinds of blood in my video titled "The Old Blood Explained" and "What Makes the Vilebloods' Blood Vile?"
ruclips.net/video/CKqGCS5Z9OY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/fbjjH0mvkkc/видео.html
@@LastProtagonist i guess we have our own opinions cause again i dont see solid proof to back up your claims rather than hypothesis.for example i provide profe as to why the old blood is the same as arrianas or with the vilebloods queen here
www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/oz1zyw/laurence_and_the_vilebloods/? (i also explain why its consider to be vile)
I provide proof throught item description and alfreds information in comparison with others.i dont say that i pressume or its highly likely that the old blood is this or that just because it make sense in my mind
@@LastProtagonist for example you gave 0 prove that the pthumerians where gathering the blood of the hang man,you just assume that they did.
@@timidwildone Glad to see that my research is being appreciated despite my bad english,some posts are hard to read but imagine how hard is for me to write them!i am still writing and upload my interpetation of bloodbornes lore so stay tune.thnx for your replie.
@@timidwildone thnx man!what ever thoughts you might have about my lore or you need more detail prove let me know
Content is good, but you speak to fast and the editing is erratic, I suggest to speak more slowly and don’t change images too often.
Your manner of speaking has a strange cadence. Like up, down, up, down, up, down, in an unnatural way.