Paul and Becky Alexander were a part of the leadership in my college home church in 2006. I had attended Xenos from middle school until my freshmen year in college when I decided to leave due to sheer exhaustion balancing schoolwork and the significant demands of the church. That decision alone was traumatic. Several months after leaving the church, I was in a terrible car accident where I was badly injured and one of my friends was killed. The leadership of my former home church - including Paul Alexander - told all of my former friends that they were not allowed to visit me or otherwise provide support to me or my family because I had left the church. Sixteen years later I am still recovering from the repercussions that this group had in my life - and not once has anyone from the leadership of that home church reached out to check on me or apologize for their decisions. Other members of that leadership group (Sarah Foust, Ben Foust) are now in top positions of leadership, so it is not surprising to hear that the abuse continues.
Katie, my experiences were EXACTLY as you described. We were there a few years apart, different homegroups, different age ranges as I was in my 30's , but the SAME !!! The evil lurks at the top of this organization. 20 years later it still hurts. These "Brothers and Sisters in Christ" literally tried to carve up my soul
Katie - your story is the toughest. I confess that I don't know how to evaluate it. Your side of the story makes it seem like they chose poorly, that they failed to love as Jesus would have. I do not have their side of the story and I may never get it. The only certainty I have is that God knows the complete story and worked through it His way and in His timing, which may be ongoing. If Paul & Becky agreed to meet with you, would you go? Perhaps God has a surprise in store for you if such a meeting took place. Only He knows such possibilities.
No church "leader" has a right to dictate who we are allowed or not allowed to see. Your church friends are easily manipulated, and that is a real shame. I don't believe that the actions of that leader are typical behavior. I left the church, and was still invited to a New Years party by our former home group leader who I considered a friend. My husband still visits with and communicates with another friend of ours who is still a member and who I believe is in a position of leadership. No one told anyone they could not visit us or support us simply because we no longer attend Xenos. We tend to not get together with most of them, and we realize they are busy, but no one tried to convince any of our friends they could not get together with us.. so either the people in that group are seriously messed up, or your friends lied to you. What "abuse" are you claiming they did to you? Your friends made a decision to follow what they were told by someone who allegedly said they were not "allowed" to visit you or support you or your family. What in the world is wrong with your friends that they would allow a HOME GROUP leader to tell them what to do? Who in their right mind would listen to a person who heads a BIBLE STUDY that they cant' visit their friends? It sounds to me like your former friends had real issues. No one FORCES you to "obey" Xenos home group leaders, pastors, elders or anyone else. I attended Xenos for years and never ran into that amount of controlling influence.. but here again, you said you were in a COLLEGE Home church. That explains a lot. Again, the college ministries are where these problems keep coming up. They need ADULTS who have proven themselves mature and BIBLICAL in the way they handle things to head up college ministry. But still, why would young adults, old enough to attend COLLEGE be allowing anyone to tell them who they can or cannot visit? And why would you, clearly an ADULT at that point in your life, allow that kind of thing to " traumatize" you for SIXTEEN years? I feel bad for you that you went through such a tragic accident, and I believe it was the trauma of the accident that really devastated you. I can see why it would be very upsetting that your friends did not come to see you, but they were ADULTS. Xenos doesn't follow people around to see where they go. They have no right to stop anyone from visiting friends or family and to my knowledge no one has ever man handled people to force them not to see who they want, when they want. I find it bizzarre that your friends allowed the College ministry leader to dictate their lives to this level. I find it also pretty bizarre that you have allowed this situation to "traumatize" you for sixteen years. Dear God, turn to Jesus to heal your wounds and learn how to forgive.
I grew up in Xenos but left in high school because of the controlling nature of the high school group. I remember that they pressured me to not go to my freshman homecoming dance because it was on the same weekend as a church retreat. Just little things like that. It does exhibit high controlling cult-ish behaviors but I’d say almost entirely in the youth groups and especially in the college group. I would not say that it’s a true cult at all. I was never in the college group but my brother was and he had similar experiences to what interviewees were saying, but he was easily able to get out of the church and move on. There are many great aspects to Xenos, and like Paul said, I think a lot of the sketchy, controlling behavior is a productive of the way the youth groups are set up and it’s just people being humans and assholes. I will say that that guy Paul is one of the kindest, most genuine people I have EVER met. He was an aide in one of my classrooms when I was a kid and the kids loved him and called him squirrelly Paul. I knew him and his wife briefly as an adult and they were both lovely people that genuinely cared for others.
All young kids and many young adults seem to have a habit of trying to be a bit controlling. I don't believe people trying to convince you to not go to the Homecoming dance is cult like. In their minds our faith is more important. I get why they might try to convince you, but pressure might be too strong a word. Except that we all know that at that age, MOST teens try to convince you to do what they think is best, Christian or not. I agree that the controlling type behaviors seem to be more among the youth and college. I also believe those behaviors are not instigated by mature adults. College ministries should be headed by MATURE adults, and they need to get rid of this controlling attitude. I get not allowing a gf into the room alone with her bf in a ministry house; that's just common sense. But from what I have heard it's almost as thought they think you should eat, drink, breathe and sleep ministry. People should not be so isolated in a ministry house that they don't see their families, and should not have so much control of their time, being told they MUST attend two studies a week when they need to be able to study for classes, and everyone should have free time. So I do think they have some issues they need to resolve in the ministry house. But again, the youth thing I believe was just them trying to convince you to do what they thought was best. No one forced you though, did they? The true mark of a cult is a lot more insidious than trying to convince you to do something because they think it's best. True cults manipulate, and even force people to do what they think is best. They would have shunned you for going to the dance, maybe cut you off from the group for not doing what they wanted you to. I do think there are good things with Xenos, but I felt people were put into leadership that lacked maturity. I also did not like that they relegated gifts of the Spirit to "servant team" meetings APART from the main services. I had a few other issues, but no one ever forced me to do anything I did not want to do. Did they try to convince me to do something I didn't want to do? Yes. I am childless, and our particular home group leader, a nice guy, well meaning, but he tried to talk me into doing nursery duty. I told him I could not handle it, because my emotions are just too raw around babies/children. I have worked in children's ministry in the past, but over the years the pain grew the longer I went without having kids. At that point my emotions were VERY raw, and he still tried to talk me into doing nursery duty even though I told him I could not handle it and why. But after the second time I refused in that one conversation, that was it. He did not continue to ask me. But my issues with Xenos over a few "leaders" attitudes, one of them telling me when I expressed my feelings about them not allowing the gifts of the Spirit in the normal services, her response was that I could go somewhere else. It was with "attitude" that she said it, and she was supposed to be a "leader" and on the "servant team". I felt that the immaturity in "leadership" was a bit much. People in positions of leadership should be, biblically speaking, above reproach. But when you start dealing with " things like Home Groups, all bets are off. Because there simply are not enough really mature believers that every group can have that kind of leadership. Personally I feel like the Home Group thing is very flawed. I get why they do it, but not everyone attending a church still needs discipleship. I had been saved over 30 years by the time I went to Xenos. And second, if you don't have enough VERY mature Christians to lead home groups, it is not a good idea to go forward with that model. There is far too much room for situations like what some of these people are talking about
@@EzekielsCall You have mature, sane, and thoughtful feedback. It's hard to discern whether these complaints are simply people who are upset about being called out on their sin and decide to leave the church rather than change their behavior, or if it is actually an over-bearing organization (or if it's people who have never been in a church, or have not been in a church where members socialize and are a community). In other videos there are reports that the mentors are taking notes to share with others, and disseminating information that was shared in confidence -- that makes me raise my eyebrows and wonder what's going on there (it sounds disturbing, but I don't know the whole story).
I went to Xeno for about 2 years around the early 2000s. I am still affected by the abuse from my home church. I have so many stories about trying to extract info from me " in confindence" only to find it was shared and discussed with those in power , weaponized and thrown back at me. One of the oddest repeated battles ...I was encouraged early on was being pressured not to go home after midweek evening bible study to sleep so that I could perform my exhausting, stressful job as a RN the next day. This one man in particular would GRILL me about why I wanted to go home say 9:30ish so I could wind down sleep and get up at 6am. He would tell me 6am isnt early, everyone else has to get up in the morning but you are the first to leave. " I guess there must be something wrong with you that you need so much sleep" !!! yeah 7 hours of sleep a night means I am a defective human. Eventually they gave up and just sneared at me and gave "sympathetic looks" to my husband at the time as I would say goodbye. I was told early on they wanted the home church to be my" best friends".I dont tolerate "friends ": who scold me during casual conversations on the regular, trick me to extract info and details and share it around (and then give details to my husband ) One time they told me they are trying to "mold me" into who Christ wants me to be. NO they were trying to mold me into THEIR CULT and I wont let them as I want GOD to mold me into who He wants me to be. One good point, I guess, is that they helped poison my husband against me. My ex told me all the things they said they didnt like about me. That marriage wasnt good and I was trying too hard to save something that needed to die. But it was an extremely painful experience. SO after 2 years with my "best friends", when my ex and I split, I got 1 handwritten note of sympathy from a women who would barely speak to me. I never went back and never heard from ANYONE ever again. Sorry this is so long. Living thru the gaslighting of their hate, verbal and psychological abuse .... while telling me they should be the core of my life still affects me.
People, even Christians are human, and sadly being human is no less messy just because people are Christians. I agree that some people are over the top. Why that person tried to talk you into not going home to get rest is beyond me. But this is not Xenos, it's a HOME group. Home groups are simply bible studies led by someone who showed a willingness to host one in their home, and sometimes a person who has demonstrated an ability to teach. That is no guarantee that they are mature believers or that they will handle relationships right. It's rather bizarre behavior on that person's part, but maybe they never took the time to understand how much you worked, your schedule etc. Your husband should have stood up for you. I find it sad, but typical of groups of any gathering of humans with their tribal mentalities. Christians are not perfect. But that still doesn't make it a cult. No one forced you to go. I attended xenos for years, and no one forced me to do anything. I had one group leader that tried to get me to help out with watching over kids in the nursery, and I am a childless woman with a LOT of pain over not having children . I tried to tell him it was too painful, and he tried to talk me out of that so I would help. I refused. No one was going to force me to do it. I am an autonomous human being with her own mind and her own will, and that is something people need to remember here. No one is tying people up and forcing them to stay , or to attend home groups or whatver. I think the word you are looking for is not cult, but PEER PRESSURE. I would think that adults would be aware enough to see it for what it is, and just not give in to it when it pops up. None of us becomes a Christian and then grows to maturity overnight. And for many people it takes years. The home group model is problematic in my opinion. I have seen trouble with it in other churches as well. I feel bad for you that your marriage did not last, and that you had a bad experience or set of experiences with immature people who handled things badly. When you tell someone something in confidence, you expect it to stay that way. But did the person you told know it was in confidence? One thing I do believe is wrong, is their idea that THEY need to "mold you" to be like Jesus. Their job is to teach the Word of God, not get you to divulge private info and then spread it around, or tell your husband something you had chosen not to tell him yet. I do think they can sometimes be over the top, depending on the person you are dealing with, but this again is due to individuals not a practice of the church at large. I do think they have issues, and I think those issues largely stem out of not knowing the people they have chosen for leadership in teaching /home groups well enough. I don't know who is giving people the idea that they have to "make" you into what God wants us to be. Yes they are to teach and lead by example, but this does seem to go too far with some people at times. That said, again, it is not a cult. It does not have the earmarks of a cult. There are issues with the college ministry houses, and issues with individuals at times who head home groups, but I believe this comes down to lack of maturity, and when you have that many people involved, there are going to be some who don't handle things in a mature adult, and even Christian way at times.
Thank you for doing this reporting! I’ve been trying to get leaders to look into this group for years after several family members and friends lives were effected by this community.
They are not a cult. They may have problems in the college ministry houses, and I have said for a while they need ADULTS overseeing them But I went to xenos for years and never saw any controlling or abuse. If you have a home group leader or someone that is trying to control you, or exploit in some way, it should be reported to the main church elders/pastors. it is a mischaracterization to call them a cult, simply because some people had bad experiences with people in " leadership", and by "leadership" I use that term very lightly, because having a bible study in your home and hosting it , even setting it up does not make a person a leader, and certainly is no guarantee of their maturity or even that they are a real Christian.
I left Dwell/Xenos recently. But I think he didn't want to outright say that to avoid dismissing the concerns of others that feel like it is a cult. He might not agree with the label, but for the only soundbyte they use to be "We aren't a cult" would have made it look like he felt everyone saying it was, was just a liar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to necessarily defend or condemn the church, but to say "Well he could have easily said XYZ" is neither fair nor takes into account the nature of the situation.
@@joshuawagner1149 his failure to say anything is on the church. Both for putting the response to the news on lay leaders, and ill equipping them to represent the org well in the media
I was a member in a high school group in the mid nineties. I was brought to a college “ministry house” and they showed punk rock music videos to seem cool. They showed GG Allins music videos w/ a singer exposing himself and defecting on people to minors. So what other “church” does such things? I was a bunch of time to sleep over at these college “ministry “ house to spend the night and walk campus all hours of the night and underage drinking was happening. I was at a college “ministry” house another time and one of the Xenos college reps that ran the high school group change the code on my beeper voice mail “ Hi this is … and I’m gay looking for other guys to have sex.” So again the impressionable high school kids being subject to smoking and vile movies etc.
What you are describing is NOT typical of the College ministry houses. I wasn't there in the 90's so maybe that was before they had all the rules. The rules are in place to try to prevent people from "walking campus all hours of the night":, and "underage drinking" As for smoking.. what high school kid is not subjected to seeing people smoking? Vile movies? WHY did you not report this to the church? And what ministry House could you possibly have attended that did such things? They have rules, which some find "controlling" that you have to be back in the ministry house by a curfew. They don't allow sleepovers of women in the guy's ministry houses. So what Girls in college were showing you vile videos of someone defecating on people while singing ? If you were not on board with all this yourself, why did you keep going back? And who allows a MINOR to sleep over at a college ministry house? Where were your PARENTS in all this? Also.. Why would a college representative change your beeper code? Changing the code is also not the same as changing the message Not sure exactly what you are saying there. Are you SURE it was the college rep that did it? DID YOU REPORT THIS TO THE PASTORS/ELDERS? This sounds to me like either an accident, or possibly a prank.. OR in the rare instances that it could happen, someone got put in charge of a ministry that should not have been. Well clearly there was not enough oversight of the ministry houses while you were there in the 90's. And whoever showed those videos either wasn't a real Christian, or they were maybe new Christians who had little to no maturity yet and should never have been in charge of ministry. I agree that they need to be more careful who they put in charge of ministries and leadership. In all honestly I have my own issues with attitudes that just got on my nerves, and a couple incidents that were minor, but finally just got fed up with what I believed was immaturity in ministry. That said, they are not a cult. They are not evil. And you should have reported the situation to the Pastors/Elders. Nothing will change if no one reports people when abuses or bad situations occur. The Pastors/Elders are not mind readers, and they can't be everywhere at once. Reporting abuses helps them to weed out bad actors and that helps protect everyone.
@@EzekielsCall Michelle's story is ABSOLUTELY typical of what the college and high school ministries were like up until probably the mid 2000's. It's hard to explain but it was just a different era back then. Everyone smoked cigarettes inside. They did dangerous stunts with cars. They did dangerous and destructive pranks. Underage drinking was just not considered a problem in Xenos, unless it's at a big party where the cops are likely to show up due to noise. College students outside of Xenos don't wait until 21 to start drinking and even though it's illegal, so the church lets it happen because having a rule against it would be a devastating blow to ministry house culture and their ability to recruit. The rationale was always "we don't want to be legalistic about things that don't matter." It might not be the case any longer, but Xenos used to be proud of the edgy image that it cultivated. The whole point of Xenos existing in the first place is because the people who started it wanted a non-traditional church. They wanted to get rid of a lot of the norms associated with Christian culture that were not directly from the Bible. The thinking was that the Christian church had become warped into something unattractive and alienating to everyone other than Ned Flanders fundie type people. The Bible says nothing about smoking, so they were cool with it (again, it's hard to explain what it was like back then, but most teenagers smoked). No one listened to Christian music and there was no singing at their Central Teachings (which were the closest thing they had to normal church services because it was a big sermon happening in a church building, not a "homechurch" meeting in someone's living room). Watching really disgusting movies was considered good, clean fun. Underage drinking was tolerated as long as you were 18 and not getting hammered. They were trying to create a fun, wild, party atmosphere while still STRICTLY prohibiting sex, drunkenness, and marijuana. I'm a millennial myself, the people who started and ran Xenos were mostly Boomers, but I always felt like Xenos was really a Gen-x phenomenon. A lot of the people in college and high school ministries seemed like Gen-x stereotypes who materialized out of like, a Pearl Jam video or something. That type of guy still existed in Xenos long after they went extinct in the real world. One of the many problems in Xenos is that there was/is a bad attitude that went with that Gen-x counterculture aesthetic. They constantly referred to themselves as "radical," "extreme" (to them that word didn't have negative connotations), "hardcore," etc. Excesses that were actually unhealthy were sometimes explained away by saying "they're lame and just can't handle how radical/hardcore/intense we are." Just to clarify, I don't disagree with Xenos on everything. I think they have some great material, great books, solid theology, but no self-awareness, discernment, or any of the humble attitudes they would need to stop some of the problems in their culture.
such weird vibes i swear. The same vibes I got when being around those people are the same ones I experienced while watching this. Something just feels way off and I knew not to stick around long enough to find out. thank GOD my inner intuition led me away from this superficial cult mega-church shit show.
They aren' t a cult. they do seem to have problems with the College ministry houses and some of the stuff in youth ministries. Youth are easily influenced by peer pressure. That is something parents need to get a better handle on in teaching their kids. But I attended Xenos for years and never experienced any cult like behaviors. Do I think some people were a bit over the top trying to get people to do what they thought was best? Yes. But it isn't everyone.. It is individuals here and there. And they did not emotionally abuse, nor exploit anyone I knew. Again, I think they should stop with the ministry houses. I get why they may have started them, but clearly there are too many issues. Either have mature adults handle it who are not going to overload the students with 2 bible studies a week, as the students need time to themselves, time to study, and time to see their families. I think it is bizzarre to make them so busy with "ministry" stuff that they can't have time to themselves etc. But I do believe this is immaturity, not cult behavior. Abuses are bound to happen when they don't know the people heading their ministries well enough. I think that needs to stop. Ministry houses are a bad idea. But again it isn't a "cult" and this mischaracterization is being solidified by people like you who didn't even attend, because you ASSUME that the characterization is true. A few people having bad experiences does not = a cult.
"vibes" being around people who attended xenos, "the same ones I experienced while watching this" Sounds to me like you have some issues. I watched this and simply saw a guy who was trying to be thoughtful in giving his answers. I met a lot of great people at Xenos (before they changed the name to Dwell) and never got " creepy" or "cult like" vibes from them. What a truly bizzarre thing to say. I met a lot of loving people who just wanted to reach the lost and be what God wants them to be. Were there sometimes immature attitudes? of course. Were there every people who maybe tried too hard to convince you to attend a study, or help out with something like the snack bar or nursery or some other need? Sure. That's just human nature. But your comment is just odd. I left for reasons of my own, that had nothing to do with the kinds of accusations I am seeing here. I feel bad people had bad experiences, but this is by no means the normal experience for most who attend the church. We still have a good friend in ministry there, my husband gets together with him and other friends fairly regularly.. and not once did he act controlling, abusive or anything close. If he felt he were being pressured, or had those kinds of experiences, he would leave in a heartbeat. If you had bad ":vibes" simply being around people at Xenos, maybe it was the particular group you hung around. Again I have met a lot of really nice, loving people at Xenos, and the accusations made here are not common experience for the THOUSANDS of people that attend. I say thousands, because if there were just 20 people in each group, with over 200 Home Groups, then clearly there are thousands attending. And yet there are a HANDFUL of people talking about their bad experiences here, most of which sound nothing like a cult.
@@EzekielsCall "false characterizations by people who haven't attended" How much attendance does one need? Do I have to become a member to accurately judge? Live in one of the houses? I attended several events in my day
@@joshuajewell7529 maybe you didn't put it through properly. It happens sometimes. Try it again. Xenos doesn't control this page by the way. So if you thought they were a cult, and then thought omg someone took my comment down.. maybe you need to stop and take a breath, and realize Xenos doesn't control this page, the news channel does.
1 of 2 How about you should include the basic thing that he said about how they are in community with each other, ie in each others lives a lot more than what a lot of other churches do, and in a very decentralized way that sometimes unfortunately can result in conflict, people maybe going above what they should (ie in being more controlling than they should etc) and that as humans this is bound to cause issues where people rub each other the wrong way, or someone may hurt someone else somehow, and then hopefully grow through their experiences. Any time you have very large organizations with loose knit groups that are decentralized from the main body, and even when you have centralized churches, you may run into people who are not what they seemed to be, and turn out to have been abusing someone behind the scenes. We don't have a case here where people are reporting molestation or something, but rather situations that hurt their feelings, or where they felt peer pressure to do something they didn't want to - like as one girl said, she wanted to go to Homecoming, dance, but her friends, or maybe young leadership in a High School group, wanted her to go to the retreat instead. No one forced her,. They simply tried to convince her. As for Youth being open about sexual things, we can't tell from one small comment what exactly happened. The kids may have been encouraged to open up about fears, or if they had been abused, or whatever. Funny how we have no problems apparently in our society where KIDS have been forced to read what amounts to pornographic text out loud in front of their peers in public schools, but we have a hard time with teens willingly opening up about things among their peers in a church setting. Was it appropriate? I don't know, I wasn't there. But a sound bite about High School kids talking about sex with their peers and a youth leader doesn't even begin to tell the story of what happened, so we can't even judge whether it was "appropriate " or not. I would assume that the High School kids, probably close to adulthood by the way, were encouraged that they could be open with their peers with things they might not want to say around adults /parents. Isn't that what happens in public schools across the country? So why is is such a huge deal when it happens in a peer group like a Church Youth Group. I can almost guarantee what they discussed was a LOT tamer than what they are exposed to every day by activist teachers in schools who are confusing kids about their gender and identity. I agree with what he said for the most part. People are flawed. You put a bunch of people together far more often than what society in general tends to experience and it is going to result in conflicts, hurt feelings etc., and in some cases people may end up "sinning" against another through wrong attitudes or actions. This is even more so in what is basically a very decentralized church of hundreds of home groups that meet together regularly and are more engaged in each others lives than what you might find in a typical church. I have met some of those people who have wrong attitudes, or maybe say something or do something hurtful. I have never seen CULT like behavior in Xenos. What I have seen is HUMAN behavior, and in some cases individuals have wrong attitudes or behaviors just like in any other group setting where people see each other every day and are involved in each other's lives. As someone who has attended Xenos, I am aware that there have been more problems in College ministry and youth groups as opposed to adult groups. I would expect that teenagers in High School would report to their parents if something inappropriate was going on, and that College kids would be adult enough to report and/or get out of a situation if there is emotionally "abusive" or controlling behavior going on. I assume most of these people live in the area. If they have to find another apartment or go back home, live off campus while attending college, then that is what they should do if there are abusive behaviors going on in their particular situation, AND they should report that abuse to the church elders/pastors. I do think it would be better though to just get rid of ministry houses. I think they meant well having them, and I get that Christians might want to live together while attending college, and that they would want rules to help keep each other accountable too, but if a "leader" of a "Ministry House" is more controlling than they ought to be, discouraging people from seeing family, or pressuring a person to spend inordinate amounts of time engaging in "ministry", bible study whatever (2 day a week seems a bit excessive for people who have a LOT of studying to do ) then they should report it so that the elders/Pastors can deal with it. And most especially if there are ungodly things going on... if someone got into a position of leadership by deceit, and then does things like one woman accused them of (showing vile music videos and smoking/drinking/wandering campus at all hours) then this needs to be reported ASAP. I don't know what it was like in the 90's but maybe that is why ministry houses have curfews and rules. Maybe it seems a bit overly restrictive to some people, and maybe in some cases it is, but you can't have it both ways. There have to be rules. We are dealing at times with people who either have not been Christians very long, or who may be immature in their faith etc. can you imagine letting young adults just do what they want in a Christian ministry house attached , however loosely to a church? We all know how non Christian partying and other uh.. unChristian "activities" shall we call them, goes on at College campuses, and off campus as well. People want to complain about the fact that there were people showing videos you would not expect to see in a Christian atmosphere, people "wandering campus at all hours" , drinking, smoking etc... and then they want to complain when rules are put into place to prevent ungodly things from going on. SMH. You can't please everyone all the time. That said, I have heard that there have been problems in college ministry houses and/or High School ministries. It seems to me that they need to deal with the overly controlling stuff, but how to do that and still maintain rules and propriety, I don't know. I am not a member anymore, but it had nothing to do with "cult like" behaviors, or anything "creepy" going on. I didn't like the immaturity I observed in some church leaders, and I did not agree with certain practices, but it was nothing creepy, illegal, or overly controlling - unless you count relegating the Gifts of the Spirit to a special meeting of "servant team" people.. but they are by far not the only church that can't seem to handle the Gifts of the Spirit or are apparently "worried:" they might be embarrassed in a public setting if someone says something that is just weird human behavior rather than an actual work of God. Or are they afraid God will embarrass them? I don't know , I was never given a reason why. The very immature woman that I brought it up with simply told me that I should "feel free to go to another church if you don't like it." Ezekiel's Call
I saw careful thoughtful replies, being mindful of not damaging the reputation of Christ. If it was scripted, he would have had prepared answers to the final two questions.
@@randybliss6480 That's what I saw too Randy. These ppl commenting are some of them I think making a lot of assumptions and just jumping to conclusions because of the accusations of the church being a "cult". I don't prefer Xenos/Dwell for my own reasons, but I would never call them a cult despite the problems that have sometimes come up with how people handle leadership and/or relationships.
@@EzekielsCall You and Randy both sound like brainwashed religious nut jobs. He avoided questions, conveniently his mic was messing up when he was asked direct questions. Stop with the bs.
I don't think the church picked him - he volunteered. And God can use anyone to communicate His message. I think it's especially powerful when He uses someone that others don't think they speak well. The bible gives Moses as an example of that...
@@randybliss6480 Moses had a damaged tongue. This guy just lacks the knowledge to speak well on the subject clearly. And as some comments here have suggested, was not honest with his own history in the church
2 of 2 While I have not always agreed with attitudes of certain people, or with certain things the way they are handled, none of what I saw as a member of Xenos (aka Dwell) was "cult" like. I find the insinuations and people calling this church "evil" to be out of place and nasty. If people had grievances they should have alerted the Pastors/Elders. How else are they to know when there is too much controlling behavior from an individual, or an unhealthy group attitude, or leaders who are unreasonable in what they expect of people attending their home churches or ministry houses? I see a tribal mentality going on right here on this page in the comments, and also on the previous "reporting" video, where it seems like those who had ANY grievance are using it to turn around and call this church a "cult" simply because they had a bad experience. I also see people who NEVER attended, jumping to conclusions, calling this guy "creepy" simply because he tried to think his answers through... and didn't know what to say as a final response that they could summarize his feelings on this topic with. Maybe he was tired. Maybe he had a long night or whatever or just wasn't awake enough to come up with something the reporter might put in a sound bite. That doesn't make him "creepy" It doesn't make Xenos/Dwell a "cult". I am not going to say there are not problems. Clearly there have been some. But I would expect people to handle them in a more mature manner. Accusations of them being a "cult" are way over the top. What I see personally is a lot of immaturity, especially in High School and College groups, and sometimes in adults you would expect to know better. But home groups do not = the church leadership. They do not = the overall tone and practices of the entire Church. This is a bunch of people deciding to go to bible studies apart from the main church meetings, to engage in each other's lives to help each other be more like God intends.. and some ppl take it a bit over the top. I am not saying actual abuses never happen. But maybe they need to train better, and make a point that Home Group leaders ought not to be trying to CONTROL people's lives. God's "leaders" are supposed to lead by example, and to teach what God says about how we should live. I find that some individuals go a bit over the top in their zeal ... and maybe there are some who have emotionally abused, or shared confidences they should not etc. I am not discounting anyone's experiences either, because I was not there. We all know that in large groups there is potential for someone to be presenting themselves in public meetings as something they are not, and then revealing their true corrupt self in smaller less public situations. Not everyone who goes to church, and even not everyone who works their way into positions of "leadership" of home groups aka BIBLE STUDIES, is truly a real Christian, and this is sadly a problem in Christianity in general. I once went to a very good church, where the Pastor tried his best to preach the gospel and lead his "flock" into understanding God's will for our lives etc. One day a man who attended our church, who was a bit boastful about his alleged history in the FBI, and other "exploits" he thought made him an admirable person, and also rather a vain person, so clearly had some room to grow, but otherwise I assumed he was a Christian... asked me if I wanted to do some work for him for his business to make some extra money. He arranged to come over and talk to me about it at my house. Well he turned up when my husband was not home, and I shouldn't have let him in, but I thought he was a Christian, so I invited him in to talk about the work he wanted me to do . As he was talking to me he sat down on the couch next to me SO close that his thigh was touching mine! At that point I got up, and started walking to the door still talking to him, and basically told him as I walked outside, and he followed, that it was time for him to leave. I WISH I had thought to report it to the Pastor. I also wish I had said more to this man, but at the time I was thinking more about my SAFETY. Because what kind of Christian behaves like he did. I worried he might be unstable. I had no idea what he might do if I confronted him in my house, and I was SO uncomfortable at what he did that my nerves were kind of shot. I am glad I had the wherewithal to lead him outside the door as I was talking, without giving away my feelings about what he had done. God knows if I had told the Pastor, I can imagine this guy lying with a completely straight face, and all I would have is my word against his. And this was at a GOOD church, with a Pastor who preached the Word of God, and this church did not have a reputation of being "controlling" "or "cult like" in any way. You all need to realize that there are all kinds of people that attend churches. Some of these are Christians, and some are not. Some think they are Christians, while missing the point altogether. Some are encouraged to think they are "saved" because they "prayed a prayer" to "receive Jesus" but were never talked to about repentance. Some people attend churches for all the wrong reasons. This is just a sad truth of the world we live in. Some of these situations probably require forgiveness rather than simply venting your feelings because you felt someone wronged you. The people of Xenos/Dwell are human, and they are going to make mistakes. I think personally that they have a LOT of growing to do, leadership and some of the adults not excluded. But these behaviors are not across the board, and they are not typical of every Home Group. They may be more typical of High School and College groups by the very fact of the immaturity of people of High School and College age. I hope that people will read this comment and maybe consider that a handful of complaints of less than ideal circumstances or attitudes or even bad behavior out of HUNDREDS of Home Groups and THOUSANDS of people does not indicate that Dwell (formerly Xenos) is a "cult"
does paul alexander think that these answers are acceptable? And in the end, he is like "oh Im not sure what to say" ie. my capacity to promote the xenos approach is now full and I have no opinion of my own further than that. My identity is in the things I have been reciting all these years in Xenos and I really do not have a personality beyond that. I will advertise how kind I am, how peaceful and how superior to these human sinners and gently dismiss the "bad" side of everything by saying that "oh I dont want to dismiss experiences BUT ..." and "our church is not your mediocre sunday goers church, WE are BETTER because we follow this better etc" .... Like dude, do you have 3 brain cells? BUT I was also there though, and I can relate to the deification of this abusive, fanatic and emotionally damaging environment that does offer some solace to the vulnerable. But the offers do not exceed the damage, what these people dread of blaming organised religion for - they always blame themselves and "human nature" "brokeness" etc. And thus, they abuse each other of course, because this self blaming can only produce more hate and not love. They harm each other in a scope of performance, competition and superiority complex. And of course play power games when they are in a position of power. Their help, friendliness, "sense of community" is valid until you challenge or disagree with their approach. When you get "church disciplined" they completely excommunicate you, I was lucky because I had friends and family in OH, others end up homeless. When this community is there with conditions, this love they firmly stand for is transactional and conditional. This was one of the most schizoid experiences of my life, and when I realised I just needed it at that moment to survive, it all made a lot of sense. They would not survive without such vulnerability, no religion would. No matter who god is and if she exists or not. This is my sinful opionion. ADE GEIA TA EIPAME
I want to thank Jamie Ostroff for giving Mr. Alexander a fair shot at expressing himself. Perhaps more current members (or even former members that had positive experiences) will be willing in the future to "go on the record" praising God for using Xenos/Dwell to accomplish His will.
So because a handful of people have accused this church of being a "cult" and because this man gave thoughtful responses means it's "creepy"? No, sorry. I know this church and it is not a cult. He was clearly just thinking about his responses before he answered. And probably was pretty tired when they did the interview.
@@EzekielsCall a handful!? do you even know this church? I've lived down the street for 15 years. I've been friends with, and dated many people that have left it because of exactly what is being alleged. Organized religion is a cult even without churches like these.
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Paul and Becky Alexander were a part of the leadership in my college home church in 2006. I had attended Xenos from middle school until my freshmen year in college when I decided to leave due to sheer exhaustion balancing schoolwork and the significant demands of the church. That decision alone was traumatic. Several months after leaving the church, I was in a terrible car accident where I was badly injured and one of my friends was killed. The leadership of my former home church - including Paul Alexander - told all of my former friends that they were not allowed to visit me or otherwise provide support to me or my family because I had left the church. Sixteen years later I am still recovering from the repercussions that this group had in my life - and not once has anyone from the leadership of that home church reached out to check on me or apologize for their decisions. Other members of that leadership group (Sarah Foust, Ben Foust) are now in top positions of leadership, so it is not surprising to hear that the abuse continues.
Katie, my experiences were EXACTLY as you described. We were there a few years apart, different homegroups, different age ranges as I was in my 30's , but the SAME !!! The evil lurks at the top of this organization. 20 years later it still hurts. These "Brothers and Sisters in Christ" literally tried to carve up my soul
Katie - your story is the toughest. I confess that I don't know how to evaluate it. Your side of the story makes it seem like they chose poorly, that they failed to love as Jesus would have. I do not have their side of the story and I may never get it. The only certainty I have is that God knows the complete story and worked through it His way and in His timing, which may be ongoing.
If Paul & Becky agreed to meet with you, would you go? Perhaps God has a surprise in store for you if such a meeting took place. Only He knows such possibilities.
No church "leader" has a right to dictate who we are allowed or not allowed to see.
Your church friends are easily manipulated, and that is a real shame. I don't believe that the
actions of that leader are typical behavior. I left the church, and was still invited to a New Years
party by our former home group leader who I considered a friend. My husband still visits with
and communicates with another friend of ours who is still a member and who I believe is in
a position of leadership. No one told anyone they could not visit us or support us simply because
we no longer attend Xenos. We tend to not get together with most of them, and we realize they
are busy, but no one tried to convince any of our friends they could not get together with us..
so either the people in that group are seriously messed up, or your friends lied to you.
What "abuse" are you claiming they did to you? Your friends made a decision to follow what they were
told by someone who allegedly said they were not "allowed" to visit you or support you or your family.
What in the world is wrong with your friends that they would allow a HOME GROUP leader to tell them
what to do? Who in their right mind would listen to a person who heads a BIBLE STUDY that they
cant' visit their friends? It sounds to me like your former friends had real issues. No one FORCES
you to "obey" Xenos home group leaders, pastors, elders or anyone else.
I attended Xenos for years and never ran into that amount of controlling influence.. but here again,
you said you were in a COLLEGE Home church. That explains a lot. Again, the college ministries
are where these problems keep coming up. They need ADULTS who have proven themselves mature
and BIBLICAL in the way they handle things to head up college ministry.
But still, why would young adults, old enough to attend
COLLEGE be allowing anyone to tell them who they can or cannot visit? And why would you,
clearly an ADULT at that point in your life, allow that kind of thing to " traumatize" you for SIXTEEN years?
I feel bad for you that you went through such a tragic accident, and I believe it was the trauma of the accident
that really devastated you. I can see why it would be very upsetting that your friends did not come to see you,
but they were ADULTS. Xenos doesn't follow people around to see where they go. They have no right to stop
anyone from visiting friends or family and to my knowledge no one has ever man handled people to force
them not to see who they want, when they want.
I find it bizzarre that your friends allowed the College ministry leader to dictate their lives to this level.
I find it also pretty bizarre that you have allowed this situation to "traumatize" you for sixteen years.
Dear God, turn to Jesus to heal your wounds and learn how to forgive.
I grew up in Xenos but left in high school because of the controlling nature of the high school group. I remember that they pressured me to not go to my freshman homecoming dance because it was on the same weekend as a church retreat. Just little things like that.
It does exhibit high controlling cult-ish behaviors but I’d say almost entirely in the youth groups and especially in the college group. I would not say that it’s a true cult at all. I was never in the college group but my brother was and he had similar experiences to what interviewees were saying, but he was easily able to get out of the church and move on.
There are many great aspects to Xenos, and like Paul said, I think a lot of the sketchy, controlling behavior is a productive of the way the youth groups are set up and it’s just people being humans and assholes.
I will say that that guy Paul is one of the kindest, most genuine people I have EVER met. He was an aide in one of my classrooms when I was a kid and the kids loved him and called him squirrelly Paul. I knew him and his wife briefly as an adult and they were both lovely people that genuinely cared for others.
All young kids and many young adults seem to have a habit of trying to be a bit controlling.
I don't believe people trying to convince you to not go to the Homecoming dance is cult like.
In their minds our faith is more important. I get why they might try to convince you, but pressure
might be too strong a word. Except that we all know that at that age, MOST teens try to
convince you to do what they think is best, Christian or not.
I agree that the controlling type behaviors seem to be more among the youth and college. I also believe those behaviors are not instigated by mature adults.
College ministries should be headed by MATURE adults, and they need to get rid of this controlling attitude. I get not allowing a gf into the room alone with
her bf in a ministry house; that's just common sense. But from what I have heard it's almost as thought they think you should eat, drink, breathe and sleep
ministry. People should not be so isolated in a ministry house that they don't see their families, and should not have so much control of their time, being
told they MUST attend two studies a week when they need to be able to study for classes, and everyone should have free time. So I do think they have
some issues they need to resolve in the ministry house. But again, the youth thing I believe was just them trying to convince you to do what they thought
was best. No one forced you though, did they? The true mark of a cult is a lot more insidious than trying to convince you to do something because they
think it's best. True cults manipulate, and even force people to do what they think is best. They would have shunned you for going to the dance, maybe cut
you off from the group for not doing what they wanted you to.
I do think there are good things with Xenos, but I felt people were put into leadership that lacked maturity. I also did not like that they relegated gifts of the Spirit
to "servant team" meetings APART from the main services. I had a few other issues, but no one ever forced me to do anything I did not want to do. Did they try to
convince me to do something I didn't want to do? Yes. I am childless, and our particular home group leader, a nice guy, well meaning, but he tried to talk me into
doing nursery duty. I told him I could not handle it, because my emotions are just too raw around babies/children. I have worked in children's ministry in the past,
but over the years the pain grew the longer I went without having kids. At that point my emotions were VERY raw, and he still tried to talk me into doing nursery
duty even though I told him I could not handle it and why. But after the second time I refused in that one conversation, that was it. He did not continue to ask me.
But my issues with Xenos over a few "leaders" attitudes, one of them telling me when I expressed my feelings about them not allowing the gifts of the Spirit in
the normal services, her response was that I could go somewhere else. It was with "attitude" that she said it, and she was supposed to be a "leader" and on the "servant team".
I felt that the immaturity in "leadership" was a bit much. People in positions of leadership should be, biblically speaking, above reproach. But when you start dealing with "
things like Home Groups, all bets are off. Because there simply are not enough really mature believers that every group can have that kind of leadership. Personally I
feel like the Home Group thing is very flawed. I get why they do it, but not everyone attending a church still needs discipleship. I had been saved over 30 years by the time
I went to Xenos. And second, if you don't have enough VERY mature Christians to lead home groups, it is not a good idea to go forward with that model. There is far too
much room for situations like what some of these people are talking about
@@EzekielsCall You have mature, sane, and thoughtful feedback. It's hard to discern whether these complaints are simply people who are upset about being called out on their sin and decide to leave the church rather than change their behavior, or if it is actually an over-bearing organization (or if it's people who have never been in a church, or have not been in a church where members socialize and are a community). In other videos there are reports that the mentors are taking notes to share with others, and disseminating information that was shared in confidence -- that makes me raise my eyebrows and wonder what's going on there (it sounds disturbing, but I don't know the whole story).
I went to Xeno for about 2 years around the early 2000s. I am still affected by the abuse from my home church. I have so many stories about trying to extract info from me " in confindence" only to find it was shared and discussed with those in power , weaponized and thrown back at me. One of the oddest repeated battles ...I was encouraged early on was being pressured not to go home after midweek evening bible study to sleep so that I could perform my exhausting, stressful job as a RN the next day. This one man in particular would GRILL me about why I wanted to go home say 9:30ish so I could wind down sleep and get up at 6am. He would tell me 6am isnt early, everyone else has to get up in the morning but you are the first to leave. " I guess there must be something wrong with you that you need so much sleep" !!! yeah 7 hours of sleep a night means I am a defective human. Eventually they gave up and just sneared at me and gave "sympathetic looks" to my husband at the time as I would say goodbye. I was told early on they wanted the home church to be my" best friends".I dont tolerate "friends ": who scold me during casual conversations on the regular, trick me to extract info and details and share it around (and then give details to my husband ) One time they told me they are trying to "mold me" into who Christ wants me to be. NO they were trying to mold me into THEIR CULT and I wont let them as I want GOD to mold me into who He wants me to be. One good point, I guess, is that they helped poison my husband against me. My ex told me all the things they said they didnt like about me. That marriage wasnt good and I was trying too hard to save something that needed to die. But it was an extremely painful experience. SO after 2 years with my "best friends", when my ex and I split, I got 1 handwritten note of sympathy from a women who would barely speak to me. I never went back and never heard from ANYONE ever again. Sorry this is so long. Living thru the gaslighting of their hate, verbal and psychological abuse .... while telling me they should be the core of my life still affects me.
People, even Christians are human, and sadly being human is no less messy just because people are Christians.
I agree that some people are over the top. Why that person tried to talk you into not going home to get rest is beyond me.
But this is not Xenos, it's a HOME group. Home groups are simply bible studies led by someone who showed a willingness to
host one in their home, and sometimes a person who has demonstrated an ability to teach. That is no guarantee that they are
mature believers or that they will handle relationships right. It's rather bizarre behavior on that person's part, but maybe
they never took the time to understand how much you worked, your schedule etc. Your husband should have stood up for you.
I find it sad, but typical of groups of any gathering of humans with their tribal mentalities. Christians are not perfect.
But that still doesn't make it a cult. No one forced you to go.
I attended xenos for years, and no one forced me to do anything. I had one group leader that tried to get me to help out with
watching over kids in the nursery, and I am a childless woman with a LOT of pain over not having children . I tried to tell him
it was too painful, and he tried to talk me out of that so I would help. I refused. No one was going to force me to do it.
I am an autonomous human being with her own mind and her own will, and that is something people need to remember here.
No one is tying people up and forcing them to stay , or to attend home groups or whatver.
I think the word you are looking for is not cult, but PEER PRESSURE. I would think that adults would be aware enough to
see it for what it is, and just not give in to it when it pops up. None of us becomes a Christian and then grows to maturity
overnight. And for many people it takes years. The home group model is problematic in my opinion. I have seen trouble
with it in other churches as well.
I feel bad for you that your marriage did not last, and that you had a bad experience or set of experiences with immature people
who handled things badly. When you tell someone something in confidence, you expect it to stay that way. But did the person
you told know it was in confidence?
One thing I do believe is wrong, is their idea that THEY need to "mold you" to be like Jesus. Their job is to teach the Word of God,
not get you to divulge private info and then spread it around, or tell your husband something you had chosen not to tell him yet.
I do think they can sometimes be over the top, depending on the person you are dealing with, but this again is due to individuals
not a practice of the church at large. I do think they have issues, and I think those issues largely stem out of not knowing the people
they have chosen for leadership in teaching /home groups well enough. I don't know who is giving people the idea that they have
to "make" you into what God wants us to be. Yes they are to teach and lead by example, but this does seem to go too far with
some people at times. That said, again, it is not a cult. It does not have the earmarks of a cult. There are issues with
the college ministry houses, and issues with individuals at times who head home groups, but I believe this comes down to
lack of maturity, and when you have that many people involved, there are going to be some who don't handle things in a mature
adult, and even Christian way at times.
Thank you for doing this reporting! I’ve been trying to get leaders to look into this group for years after several family members and friends lives were effected by this community.
They are not a cult. They may have problems in the college ministry houses, and I have said for a while they need ADULTS overseeing them
But I went to xenos for years and never saw any controlling or abuse. If you have a home group leader or someone that is trying to
control you, or exploit in some way, it should be reported to the main church elders/pastors. it is a mischaracterization to call them a cult,
simply because some people had bad experiences with people in " leadership", and by "leadership" I use that term very lightly, because
having a bible study in your home and hosting it , even setting it up does not make a person a leader, and certainly is no guarantee of
their maturity or even that they are a real Christian.
He had nothing to say at the end?? His answer very easily could have been “we are not a cult” but…
I left Dwell/Xenos recently. But I think he didn't want to outright say that to avoid dismissing the concerns of others that feel like it is a cult. He might not agree with the label, but for the only soundbyte they use to be "We aren't a cult" would have made it look like he felt everyone saying it was, was just a liar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to necessarily defend or condemn the church, but to say "Well he could have easily said XYZ" is neither fair nor takes into account the nature of the situation.
@@joshuawagner1149 his failure to say anything is on the church. Both for putting the response to the news on lay leaders, and ill equipping them to represent the org well in the media
I was a member in a high school group in the mid nineties. I was brought to a college “ministry house” and they showed punk rock music videos to seem cool. They showed GG Allins music videos w/ a singer exposing himself and defecting on people to minors. So what other “church” does such things? I was a bunch of time to sleep over at these college “ministry “ house to spend the night and walk campus all hours of the night and underage drinking was happening. I was at a college “ministry” house another time and one of the Xenos college reps that ran the high school group change the code on my beeper voice mail “ Hi this is … and I’m gay looking for other guys to have sex.” So again the impressionable high school kids being subject to smoking and vile movies etc.
What you are describing is NOT typical of the College ministry houses. I wasn't there in the 90's so maybe that was before they had all the rules.
The rules are in place to try to prevent people from "walking campus all hours of the night":, and "underage drinking"
As for smoking.. what high school kid is not subjected to seeing people smoking? Vile movies? WHY did you not report this to the church?
And what ministry House could you possibly have attended that did such things? They have rules, which some find "controlling" that you have to be back
in the ministry house by a curfew. They don't allow sleepovers of women in the guy's ministry houses. So what Girls in college
were showing you vile videos of someone defecating on people while singing ? If you were not on board with all this yourself, why did you keep going back?
And who allows a MINOR to sleep over at a college ministry house? Where were your PARENTS in all this?
Also.. Why would a college representative change your beeper code? Changing the code is also not the same as changing the message
Not sure exactly what you are saying there. Are you SURE it was the college rep that did it? DID YOU REPORT
THIS TO THE PASTORS/ELDERS? This sounds to me like either an accident, or possibly a prank.. OR in the rare instances that it
could happen, someone got put in charge of a ministry that should not have been. Well clearly there was not enough oversight
of the ministry houses while you were there in the 90's. And whoever showed those videos either wasn't a real Christian, or they
were maybe new Christians who had little to no maturity yet and should never have been in charge of ministry.
I agree that they need to be more careful who they put in charge of ministries and leadership. In all honestly I have my own
issues with attitudes that just got on my nerves, and a couple incidents that were minor, but finally just got fed up with what
I believed was immaturity in ministry.
That said, they are not a cult. They are not evil. And you should have reported the situation to the Pastors/Elders. Nothing will change
if no one reports people when abuses or bad situations occur. The Pastors/Elders are not mind readers, and they can't be everywhere at once.
Reporting abuses helps them to weed out bad actors and that helps protect everyone.
@@EzekielsCall Michelle's story is ABSOLUTELY typical of what the college and high school ministries were like up until probably the mid 2000's. It's hard to explain but it was just a different era back then. Everyone smoked cigarettes inside. They did dangerous stunts with cars. They did dangerous and destructive pranks. Underage drinking was just not considered a problem in Xenos, unless it's at a big party where the cops are likely to show up due to noise. College students outside of Xenos don't wait until 21 to start drinking and even though it's illegal, so the church lets it happen because having a rule against it would be a devastating blow to ministry house culture and their ability to recruit. The rationale was always "we don't want to be legalistic about things that don't matter." It might not be the case any longer, but Xenos used to be proud of the edgy image that it cultivated.
The whole point of Xenos existing in the first place is because the people who started it wanted a non-traditional church. They wanted to get rid of a lot of the norms associated with Christian culture that were not directly from the Bible. The thinking was that the Christian church had become warped into something unattractive and alienating to everyone other than Ned Flanders fundie type people. The Bible says nothing about smoking, so they were cool with it (again, it's hard to explain what it was like back then, but most teenagers smoked). No one listened to Christian music and there was no singing at their Central Teachings (which were the closest thing they had to normal church services because it was a big sermon happening in a church building, not a "homechurch" meeting in someone's living room). Watching really disgusting movies was considered good, clean fun. Underage drinking was tolerated as long as you were 18 and not getting hammered. They were trying to create a fun, wild, party atmosphere while still STRICTLY prohibiting sex, drunkenness, and marijuana.
I'm a millennial myself, the people who started and ran Xenos were mostly Boomers, but I always felt like Xenos was really a Gen-x phenomenon. A lot of the people in college and high school ministries seemed like Gen-x stereotypes who materialized out of like, a Pearl Jam video or something. That type of guy still existed in Xenos long after they went extinct in the real world. One of the many problems in Xenos is that there was/is a bad attitude that went with that Gen-x counterculture aesthetic. They constantly referred to themselves as "radical," "extreme" (to them that word didn't have negative connotations), "hardcore," etc. Excesses that were actually unhealthy were sometimes explained away by saying "they're lame and just can't handle how radical/hardcore/intense we are."
Just to clarify, I don't disagree with Xenos on everything. I think they have some great material, great books, solid theology, but no self-awareness, discernment, or any of the humble attitudes they would need to stop some of the problems in their culture.
such weird vibes i swear. The same vibes I got when being around those people are the same ones I experienced while watching this. Something just feels way off and I knew not to stick around long enough to find out. thank GOD my inner intuition led me away from this superficial cult mega-church shit show.
They aren' t a cult. they do seem to have problems with the College ministry houses and some of the stuff in youth ministries.
Youth are easily influenced by peer pressure. That is something parents need to get a better handle on in teaching their kids.
But I attended Xenos for years and never experienced any cult like behaviors. Do I think some people were a bit over the top
trying to get people to do what they thought was best? Yes. But it isn't everyone.. It is individuals here and there. And they
did not emotionally abuse, nor exploit anyone I knew.
Again, I think they should stop with the ministry houses. I get why they may have started them, but clearly there are too many issues.
Either have mature adults handle it who are not going to overload the students with 2 bible studies a week, as the students need time
to themselves, time to study, and time to see their families. I think it is bizzarre to make them so busy with "ministry" stuff that they can't
have time to themselves etc. But I do believe this is immaturity, not cult behavior. Abuses are bound to happen when they don't know
the people heading their ministries well enough. I think that needs to stop. Ministry houses are a bad idea.
But again it isn't a "cult" and this mischaracterization is being solidified by people like you who didn't even attend, because you ASSUME that
the characterization is true. A few people having bad experiences does not = a cult.
"vibes" being around people who attended xenos, "the same ones I experienced while watching this"
Sounds to me like you have some issues. I watched this and simply saw a guy who was trying to be thoughtful in
giving his answers. I met a lot of great people at Xenos (before they changed the name to Dwell) and never got
" creepy" or "cult like" vibes from them. What a truly bizzarre thing to say. I met a lot of loving people who just
wanted to reach the lost and be what God wants them to be. Were there sometimes immature attitudes? of course.
Were there every people who maybe tried too hard to convince you to attend a study, or help out with something
like the snack bar or nursery or some other need? Sure. That's just human nature. But your comment is just odd.
I left for reasons of my own, that had nothing to do with the kinds of accusations I am seeing here.
I feel bad people had bad experiences, but this is by no means the normal experience for most
who attend the church. We still have a good friend in ministry there, my husband gets together with
him and other friends fairly regularly.. and not once did he act controlling, abusive or anything close.
If he felt he were being pressured, or had those kinds of experiences, he would leave in a heartbeat.
If you had bad ":vibes" simply being around people at Xenos, maybe it was the particular group you hung around.
Again I have met a lot of really nice, loving people at Xenos, and the accusations made here are not common
experience for the THOUSANDS of people that attend. I say thousands, because if there were just 20 people in
each group, with over 200 Home Groups, then clearly there are thousands attending. And yet there are a HANDFUL
of people talking about their bad experiences here, most of which sound nothing like a cult.
@@EzekielsCall "false characterizations by people who haven't attended"
How much attendance does one need? Do I have to become a member to accurately judge? Live in one of the houses? I attended several events in my day
It seems my comment has been taken down.
I would like to know why.
@@joshuajewell7529 maybe you didn't put it through properly. It happens sometimes.
Try it again. Xenos doesn't control this page by the way. So if you thought they were
a cult, and then thought omg someone took my comment down.. maybe you need
to stop and take a breath, and realize Xenos doesn't control this page, the news channel does.
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How about you should include the basic thing that he said about how they are in community with each other, ie in each others lives a lot more than what a lot of other churches do,
and in a very decentralized way that sometimes unfortunately can result in conflict, people maybe going above what they should (ie in being more controlling than they should etc)
and that as humans this is bound to cause issues where people rub each other the wrong way, or someone may hurt someone else somehow, and then hopefully grow through their
experiences. Any time you have very large organizations with loose knit groups that are decentralized from the main body, and even when you have centralized churches, you may run into people
who are not what they seemed to be, and turn out to have been abusing someone behind the scenes. We don't have a case here where people are reporting molestation or something,
but rather situations that hurt their feelings, or where they felt peer pressure to do something they didn't want to - like as one girl said, she wanted to go to Homecoming, dance, but her friends, or maybe young leadership in a High School group, wanted her to go to the retreat instead. No one forced her,. They simply tried to convince her.
As for Youth being open about sexual things, we can't tell from one small comment what exactly happened. The kids may have been encouraged to open up about
fears, or if they had been abused, or whatever. Funny how we have no problems apparently in our society where KIDS have been forced to read what amounts to pornographic
text out loud in front of their peers in public schools, but we have a hard time with teens willingly opening up about things among their peers in a church setting. Was it appropriate? I don't know, I wasn't there. But a sound bite about High School kids talking about sex with their peers and a youth leader doesn't even begin to tell the story of what happened, so we can't even judge whether
it was "appropriate " or not. I would assume that the High School kids, probably close to adulthood by the way, were encouraged that they could be open with their peers with things they might not want to say around adults /parents. Isn't that what happens in public schools across the country? So why is is such a huge deal when it happens in a peer group like a Church Youth Group. I can almost guarantee what they discussed was a LOT tamer than what they are exposed to every day by activist teachers in schools who are confusing kids about their gender and identity.
I agree with what he said for the most part. People are flawed. You put a bunch of people together far more often than what society in general tends to experience and
it is going to result in conflicts, hurt feelings etc., and in some cases people may end up "sinning" against another through wrong attitudes or actions. This is even more so in what is basically a very decentralized church of hundreds of home groups that meet together regularly and are more engaged in each others lives than what you might find in a typical church.
I have met some of those people who have wrong attitudes, or maybe say something or do something hurtful. I have never seen CULT like behavior in Xenos. What I have seen is
HUMAN behavior, and in some cases individuals have wrong attitudes or behaviors just like in any other group setting where people see each other every day and are involved in each other's lives.
As someone who has attended Xenos, I am aware that there have been more problems in College ministry and youth groups as opposed to adult groups. I would expect that teenagers in High School would report to their parents if something inappropriate was going on, and that College kids would be adult enough to report and/or get out of a situation if there is emotionally "abusive" or controlling behavior going on. I assume most of these people live in the area. If they have to find another apartment or go back home, live off campus while attending college, then that is what they should do if there are abusive behaviors going on in their particular situation, AND they should report that abuse to the church elders/pastors.
I do think it would be better though to just get rid of ministry houses. I think they meant well having them, and I get that Christians might want to live together while attending college, and that they would want rules to help keep each other accountable too, but if a "leader" of a "Ministry House" is more controlling than they ought to be, discouraging people from seeing family, or pressuring a person to spend inordinate amounts of time engaging in "ministry", bible study whatever (2 day a week seems a bit excessive for people who have a LOT of studying to do ) then they should report it so that the elders/Pastors can deal with it. And most especially if there are ungodly things going on... if someone got into a position of leadership by deceit, and then does things like one woman accused them of (showing vile music videos and smoking/drinking/wandering campus at all hours) then this needs to be reported ASAP. I don't know what it was like in the 90's but maybe that is why ministry houses have curfews and rules. Maybe it seems a bit overly restrictive to some people, and maybe in some cases it is, but you can't have it both ways.
There have to be rules. We are dealing at times with people who either have not been Christians very long, or who may be immature in their faith etc. can you imagine letting young adults just do what they want in a Christian ministry house attached , however loosely to a church? We all know how non Christian partying and other uh.. unChristian "activities" shall we call them, goes on at College campuses, and off campus as well. People want to complain about the fact that there were people showing videos you would not expect to see in a Christian atmosphere, people "wandering campus at all hours" , drinking, smoking etc... and then they want to complain when rules are put into place to prevent ungodly things from going on. SMH. You can't please everyone all the time. That said, I have heard that there have been problems in college ministry houses and/or High School ministries. It seems to me that they need to deal with the overly controlling stuff, but how to do that and still maintain rules and propriety, I don't know. I am not a member anymore, but it had nothing to do with "cult like" behaviors, or anything "creepy" going on. I didn't like the immaturity I observed in some church leaders, and I did not agree with certain practices, but it was nothing creepy, illegal, or overly controlling - unless you count relegating the Gifts of the Spirit to a special meeting of "servant team" people.. but they are by far not the only church that can't seem to handle the Gifts of the Spirit or are apparently "worried:" they might be embarrassed in a public setting if someone says something that is just weird human behavior rather than an actual work of God. Or are they afraid God will embarrass them? I don't know , I was never given a reason why. The very immature woman that I brought it up with simply told me that I should "feel free to go to another church if you don't like it."
Ezekiel's Call
Lunatic fringe.
Slow , scripted , and robotic. For people a group against conformity of Churches, sure closed fisted control like a cult.
I saw careful thoughtful replies, being mindful of not damaging the reputation of Christ. If it was scripted, he would have had prepared answers to the final two questions.
Whack a doodles
@@randybliss6480 That's what I saw too Randy. These ppl commenting are some of them I think making a lot of assumptions and just jumping to conclusions
because of the accusations of the church being a "cult". I don't prefer Xenos/Dwell for my own reasons, but I would never call them a cult despite the problems that have sometimes come up with how people handle leadership and/or relationships.
@@EzekielsCall You and Randy both sound like brainwashed religious nut jobs. He avoided questions, conveniently his mic was messing up when he was asked direct questions. Stop with the bs.
Could the church have picked anyone more void of a personality to do the interview?
I don't think the church picked him - he volunteered. And God can use anyone to communicate His message. I think it's especially powerful when He uses someone that others don't think they speak well. The bible gives Moses as an example of that...
Thoughtful responses does not mean "void of personality"
@@randybliss6480 Moses had a damaged tongue. This guy just lacks the knowledge to speak well on the subject clearly. And as some comments here have suggested, was not honest with his own history in the church
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While I have not always agreed with attitudes of certain people, or with certain things the way they are handled, none of what I saw as a member of Xenos (aka Dwell) was "cult" like.
I find the insinuations and people calling this church "evil" to be out of place and nasty. If people had grievances they should have alerted the Pastors/Elders. How else are they to know
when there is too much controlling behavior from an individual, or an unhealthy group attitude, or leaders who are unreasonable in what they expect of people attending their home churches or ministry houses?
I see a tribal mentality going on right here on this page in the comments, and also on the previous "reporting" video, where it seems like those who had ANY grievance are using it to
turn around and call this church a "cult" simply because they had a bad experience. I also see people who NEVER attended, jumping to conclusions, calling this guy "creepy" simply because he tried to think his answers through... and didn't know what to say as a final response that they could summarize his feelings on this topic with. Maybe he was tired. Maybe he had a long night or whatever or just wasn't awake enough to come up with something the reporter might put in a sound bite. That doesn't make him "creepy" It doesn't make Xenos/Dwell a "cult". I am not going to say there are not problems. Clearly there have been some. But I would expect people to handle them in a more mature manner. Accusations of them being a "cult" are way over the top.
What I see personally is a lot of immaturity, especially in High School and College groups, and sometimes in adults you would expect to know better.
But home groups do not = the church leadership. They do not = the overall tone and practices of the entire Church. This is a bunch of people deciding to go to bible studies apart from
the main church meetings, to engage in each other's lives to help each other be more like God intends.. and some ppl take it a bit over the top.
I am not saying actual abuses never happen. But maybe they need to train better, and make a point that Home Group leaders ought not to be trying to CONTROL people's lives.
God's "leaders" are supposed to lead by example, and to teach what God says about how we should live. I find that some individuals go a bit over the top in their zeal ... and maybe there are
some who have emotionally abused, or shared confidences they should not etc. I am not discounting anyone's experiences either, because I was not there. We all know that in large groups
there is potential for someone to be presenting themselves in public meetings as something they are not, and then revealing their true corrupt self in smaller less public situations. Not everyone who goes to church, and even not everyone who works their way into positions of "leadership" of home groups aka BIBLE STUDIES, is truly a real Christian, and this is sadly a problem in Christianity in general.
I once went to a very good church, where the Pastor tried his best to preach the gospel and lead his "flock" into understanding God's will for our lives etc.
One day a man who attended our church, who was a bit boastful about his alleged history in the FBI, and other "exploits" he thought made him an admirable
person, and also rather a vain person, so clearly had some room to grow, but otherwise I assumed he was a Christian... asked me if I wanted to do some work
for him for his business to make some extra money. He arranged to come over and talk to me about it at my house. Well he turned up when my husband was
not home, and I shouldn't have let him in, but I thought he was a Christian, so I invited him in to talk about the work he wanted me to do . As he was talking to me
he sat down on the couch next to me SO close that his thigh was touching mine! At that point I got up, and started walking to the door still talking to him, and basically
told him as I walked outside, and he followed, that it was time for him to leave. I WISH I had thought to report it to the Pastor. I also wish I had said more to this man,
but at the time I was thinking more about my SAFETY. Because what kind of Christian behaves like he did. I worried he might be unstable. I had no idea what he
might do if I confronted him in my house, and I was SO uncomfortable at what he did that my nerves were kind of shot. I am glad I had the wherewithal to lead him
outside the door as I was talking, without giving away my feelings about what he had done. God knows if I had told the Pastor, I can imagine this guy lying with
a completely straight face, and all I would have is my word against his. And this was at a GOOD church, with a Pastor who preached the Word of God, and this church
did not have a reputation of being "controlling" "or "cult like" in any way.
You all need to realize that there are all kinds of people that attend churches. Some of these are Christians, and some are not. Some think they are Christians, while
missing the point altogether. Some are encouraged to think they are "saved" because they "prayed a prayer" to "receive Jesus" but were never talked to about repentance.
Some people attend churches for all the wrong reasons. This is just a sad truth of the world we live in. Some of these situations probably require forgiveness rather
than simply venting your feelings because you felt someone wronged you. The people of Xenos/Dwell are human, and they are going to make mistakes. I think personally
that they have a LOT of growing to do, leadership and some of the adults not excluded. But these behaviors are not across the board, and they are not typical of every
Home Group. They may be more typical of High School and College groups by the very fact of the immaturity of people of High School and College age.
I hope that people will read this comment and maybe consider that a handful of complaints of less than ideal circumstances or attitudes or even bad behavior
out of HUNDREDS of Home Groups and THOUSANDS of people does not indicate that Dwell (formerly Xenos) is a "cult"
You must be getting paid well as the Dwell PR guy
Bullshit
Thousands have left the cult, not a few. 1500 left in a couple months back in the 90,s. It's definitely a toxic, damaging
does paul alexander think that these answers are acceptable? And in the end, he is like "oh Im not sure what to say" ie. my capacity to promote the xenos approach is now full and I have no opinion of my own further than that. My identity is in the things I have been reciting all these years in Xenos and I really do not have a personality beyond that. I will advertise how kind I am, how peaceful and how superior to these human sinners and gently dismiss the "bad" side of everything by saying that "oh I dont want to dismiss experiences BUT ..." and "our church is not your mediocre sunday goers church, WE are BETTER because we follow this better etc" .... Like dude, do you have 3 brain cells? BUT I was also there though, and I can relate to the deification of this abusive, fanatic and emotionally damaging environment that does offer some solace to the vulnerable. But the offers do not exceed the damage, what these people dread of blaming organised religion for - they always blame themselves and "human nature" "brokeness" etc. And thus, they abuse each other of course, because this self blaming can only produce more hate and not love. They harm each other in a scope of performance, competition and superiority complex. And of course play power games when they are in a position of power. Their help, friendliness, "sense of community" is valid until you challenge or disagree with their approach. When you get "church disciplined" they completely excommunicate you, I was lucky because I had friends and family in OH, others end up homeless. When this community is there with conditions, this love they firmly stand for is transactional and conditional. This was one of the most schizoid experiences of my life, and when I realised I just needed it at that moment to survive, it all made a lot of sense. They would not survive without such vulnerability, no religion would. No matter who god is and if she exists or not. This is my sinful opionion. ADE GEIA TA EIPAME
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I want to thank Jamie Ostroff for giving Mr. Alexander a fair shot at expressing himself. Perhaps more current members (or even former members that had positive experiences) will be willing in the future to "go on the record" praising God for using Xenos/Dwell to accomplish His will.
Fucking creeeeeeeep vibes
So because a handful of people have accused this church of being a "cult" and because this man gave thoughtful responses means it's "creepy"?
No, sorry. I know this church and it is not a cult. He was clearly just thinking about his responses before he answered. And probably was pretty
tired when they did the interview.
@@EzekielsCall a handful!? do you even know this church? I've lived down the street for 15 years. I've been friends with, and dated many people that have left it because of exactly what is being alleged. Organized religion is a cult even without churches like these.
@@EzekielsCall and he was probably pretty tired 🤣🤣🤣🤣 wut
@@EzekielsCallhandful, no 1500 left in the 90,s 1000,s more over the timeline. Cruel people I have ever MET.