WOTC Just Took Over Commander
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- "Commander is changing"... maybe?
Full article here: magic.wizards....
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People on the internet go crazy at unpaid volunteers actively making their favorite game better until they quit. Management of the game gets taken over by bloodsucking corporation with terrible record of managing IPs. Internet assholes make everything much worse. We can only hope the most egregious of those assholes get charged as criminals, death threats are definitely not protected speech.
Well you know where they learned it and what political party taught them.
They also forget that it's a fanmade format that became so beloved it was recognised by wizards.
If they really like those cards that much and think banning them was a mistake, make your own format! I'm sure wizards would be eager to recognize it.
But no, gotta direct those efforts towards harassing people instead of doing something constructive. Fucking losers.
@@psychozen7169 democrats...
@@psychozen7169now, now no need to get political. This is a cardboard game about wizards and stuff.
@@cacturne6183 Politics permeate every aspect of our lives. If we don't fight for a better world, a worse world is our fate.
WotC designed and printed all the cards that led to this fiasco. They will do so again. The game will get worse due to WotCs conflict of interest. They can't be trusted to maintain the casual gameplay of this format
They also designed and printed all the cards that kept people playing the format for a decade. While WotC is in no way a perfect company, they print way more fun stuff that keeps people engaged and coming back for more than they do busted low print cards.
Like, the RC has basically done nothing to shepherd the community (which is fine, that was their state philosophy from the get go) but WotC HAS been supporting it since 2011 and it has become the biggest format since then. That gets some credit.
Mana crypt is almost 30 years old…. Also, Wizards had a massive influence on the RC for years already. They met regularly, they had open communications, and even NDAs with the RC. It’s naive to think they weren’t in charge of their golden goose
Thats why the tiers exist, so ppl can play whichever tier they want. If u dont like mtg play something else, no biggie 😅
I agree. I think this is the worst thing that's happened to commander besides Sheldon's passing of course
@@Lavasiothremember though, we’re only a few weeks out now from Nadu Summer, where current WotC’s failure to correctly design one single card ruined an entire format for two months; I think given the amount of straight-up design mistakes that the current regime at Wizards has made in recent times - like printing Jeweled Lotus in the first place - I think we as a playerbase have enough reason to be skeptical.
It's shameful that people who gave time and effort, for a game we all enjoy, were put through this.
womp womp
Ppl shouldn't make tcg about card prices tbh. Card games won't pay your rent
@@jordan9503tell me your a problem player without telling me 🙄
The word you're looking for is "criminal." Threatening people with violence is a criminal act.
I wish I actually believed WOTC was going to take those threats seriously.
Especially Olivia. She's probably my favorite comander content creator and if not in the top5.
I am baffled at the wide body of people who view this as a win, as though somehow replacing a body who despite their flaws are doing a volunteer job for love of the game with a company who’ve chosen profit over sustainability again and again is going to benefit it.
We just need a new committee. Wizard's is probably the worst possible outcome for any agency to handle commander. The conflicts of interest are vast.
@@bobby45825 I wouldn’t even say that we needed a new committee. The RC did screw up in not preempting the bans but the bans themselves were actually quite reasonable and honestly a bigger shake up to the format than a lot of WoTC’s bannings. To me, that shows the RC was willing to make changes for the sake of the format without kowtowing to anyone. Commander, and Commander players are facing a much bigger dilemma than the bans though. The format is always thought of as a casual, kitchen table one but it’s really not anymore. WoTC have chosen to make Magic all about EDH and the people who want to play competitively haven’t left the game; they’re just playing Commander now. We should stop treating Commander like it’s nothing more than casual fare and start treating it like an actual constructed format where bans are COMMONPLACE. It’s very clear that, while rule zero is a nice thought, many people who play EDH clearly are incapable of having such discussion because if they were this whole fiasco wouldn’t have mattered. If they were so upset about their cards being banned than why not have a rule zero conversation about it with your table? I mean, it’s a casual format, right? Instead, everyone lost their collective shit and now here we are. What I’m getting at is that WoTC needs to implement regular ban announcements just like they do with Modern, Pioneer, etc.. If they are intent on continuing to print busted, auto-includes like Jeweled Lotus and Dockside Extortionist than they need to be ready to ban them. EDH ain’t casual anymore, Commander is MtG and people who play competitively will always exist so stop treating Commander players like they all play kitchen table games and start managing EDH like it’s an ACTUAL format.
Edit: Damn, sorry for the essay lol.
Profit ?
It's a matter of sustaining VALUE that folks have spent... You hacks think this is all ok... THE PEOPLE WHO YOU CALL A - HOLES FOR OWNING THINGS, are the real problem.
you are baffled other people have other opinions than yours? wow crazy
Yes, in much the same was as I'm confused by people who respond to burning their hand on a stove by insisting on putting their other hand on it too.
I'm with you that the people who threatened and harassed are arseholes. I disagree that they "aren't part of the community" though, that to me is a no-true-scotsman thing when unfortunately there ARE many deeply vile people who do things we find abhorrent that share the same hobby and community. it's awful but worth owning to better be able to work against.
I agree - shoving people like this into a hole preemptively in an attempt to hide them is attempting to dissociate ourselves from the fact that we created and fomented spaces like this. The MtG subreddit, various Discords and social media spaces that act as powder kegs for controversy and drama - whether we like it or not, while we didn't TELL these people to do these horrible things, we did consider them our peers, and that alone is something that we need to own, not hide in shame.
It's important to recognize that these WERE members of the MtG community at large that did this, and it's our responsibility to make sure we fix our spaces - or in the worst cases, cut them off entirely - so that shit like this is less likely to happen. This isn't like many death threat/doxing incidents where it's a small group of people on some hidden IRC doing this horrible shit alone, this was loud groups of people on public forums calling for harm on people who, ultimately, did nothing to actually hurt them. This IS a black mark on the Magic community, and the more we try to deny it, the less open and friendly the hobby will be for everyone.
Fair, but part of his statement included "These people are not welcome in my spaces", so, I'd argue they aren't. Outside looking in isn't really "a part of the community"
@@Dracomandriuthus i hate to tell you this but its a card game that anyone can buy.
The people sending threats and stuff are no different than the Star Wars "fans" who absolutely lost their shit when the OG was remasters and when Episode 1 dropped... And they have continued losing their shit with every other Star Wars release. Legit nothing can make them happy. These MtG "fans" sending over threats and harassment (many RUclipsrs are included on that list!) are unfortunately just as much a part of our MtG community as the one guy at every LGS who hasn't wiped or bathed in six months.
@@vileluca But do they play the game or just treat it like an investment/the stock market?
Covered my thoughts exactly, Kenobi. I think WotC is going to take a hands-off approach because they have no balance incentive to manage this format and I think the tiers system is boiling too many factors down to a single number. I'm trying to avoid being a doomer about all of this, but it's REALLY difficult to look past the profit-driven behaviors towards a healthy game-state.
edh/commander is done. thats it
I saw an idea being tossed around where instead of the proposed system of "your deck contains an Ancient Tomb, so it's a tier 4 deck," you instead add up the tier rankings of the top 4-5 cards in your deck, which should give a considerably more accurate and nuanced level of deck power level in most instances.
There's a difference between somebody playing Demonic Tutor in all of their black decks because they opened a shiny foil from a Masters set pack versus someone playing Demonic Tutor because it means they can always find their Ad Nauseum to win the game, and the modified ranking system would actually reflect that to an extent.
@@sgjuxtamaybe so, but people who are going to intentionally be misleading are always gonna figure out how to do that no matter what anyone does, the only feasible way to do that is basically ostracizing then till they change their ways, which is cruel but pain makes change.
"Balance incentive?" Wotc has a big incentive to rip and tear edh apart, over the next few years. Their bottom line, money, is the incentive. They now have control of the format, they're going to look through the ban list. They'll change it, and their incentive to change it is money. Wotc has been making mtg cards for 30+ years, they've also made huge mistakes, and cards designed for commander are a huge mistake.
@@TheRedKnightOfPain I mean, yea, but people could already be dicks regarding the current system, and like, if people are going to be dicks, they're going to be dicks regardless. But for all the players out there who *aren't* inclined to be assholes, a more concrete attempt at codifying deck power levels is a good goal to have, because, especially for less experienced players, they might struggle with trying to objectively rate their deck, so having some guiderails could be beneficial.
A finger curls on the monkey's paw. The RC is no longer in charge of commander, but an even worse fate befalls the format
Is this even a monkey's paw? This isn't a modified wish, this is exactly what the community acted like it wanted. Wish granted, I hope they enjoy rotting with Hasbro and Wizards.
@Wolfboy607 oh it will be. Now wotc can give commander the modern horizons treatment where they print super staples that you have to play like ancestral recall but only for commander or more moxen or other busted direct to commander bs, use it to sell product, and leave it legal to milk every drop of value from consumers because they know once they are done making money they can ban it. Be prepared for "we banned this because it was too popular" type shit, be prepared for "ban everything around problems because the problem card is still making us money". They asked for the RC to go away, and now commander players get to feel what wotc have been doing to standard and modern and legacy for years, that's the monkey's paw
@Wolfboy607 oh it will be, now wotc can give us the modern horizons treatment with ancestral recal or force of will or yaw will but only for commander. You thought dockside and jeweled lotus were bad? Imagine when they can print stuff KNOWING that if it's a problem they can just ban it after that set's print run is done. Expect more jeweled lotus and Nadu and dockside and hullbreacher style cards, Hasbro isn't gonna let commander go without milking every last penny from us
@Wolfboy607 I tried 3 times on 3 different days to reply to this comment and no matter what RUclips decides it's not OK and deletes it. But yeah, they got their wish, now they gotta deal with crazy power level creep bc wotc can just print broken cards knowing they can always ban it if the community has an uproar
@@Wolfboy607 I tried 4 times on 4 different days to reply to this, I give up
EDH players that babyraged: Yes, we're saved!
Wotc: More like under new management.
People were making death threats. Whatever biases you may or may not have are irrelevant. Folk shouldn't have to put up with that shit. Particularly unpaid volunteers. This fucking sucks. :/
eh, I get death threats for winning a game of League, who ACTUALLY gives a hoot? this is always run out like it has any weight in the internet age.
@keithfilibeck2390 that's easy for you to say. members of the rc were doxed, they are public personas, they make appearances at magic events. a threat of violence means alot more when people can find you, know you'll be at an event, etc.
@@keithfilibeck2390 mass harassment, especially from your own community, getting thousands of messages that cross the line is a very different experience from meeting a singular dipshit. and the concern here isn't that they're necessarily actionable threats, it's that it's a really nasty experience.
Spoken like someone who has never been on the receiving end of a concerted harassment campaign, or someone with the empathy or compassion to stand with those people unjustly vilified.
@@keithfilibeck2390people were posting addresses of these guys
Greed has ruined MTG for last 10 years or so, and not just WOTC profit focusing, its also collectors and vast people that look at MTG as printed money, with manipulating markets, whole "grading" and now we got cards that worth $ 1000s and $10,000s and more, this is not just exclusive to magic, pokemon is same thing ect. There is no saving these card games, greed will always taint these games, even effects me to a point, i will open booster box or pack, and have an idea how much X rare/mythic card is worth, question is why do i know that? simple, card games revolve around money, naturally and subconsciously due to be in mtg community just going down to your local card game stores and events and type of people that play or host really shows all that most people care about is how rare and price of it is. PS kids on other hand don't care about any of it and just wanna play and enjoy the artwork.
WotC doesn't and will not care about the gameplay balance of edh and that tier list will be a joke. Corporations are not your friend. Their only bottom line is to fill their coffers with customers money. Let that sink in.
EDH is a broken eternal format. What even is your argument here? Gameplay balance has no place in EDH.
RC didn't care about balance either. They care about banning cards that are "unfun". WotC at least has something objective as a north for their decisions - greed.
In regards to the Committte stepping down, it was only a matter of time. And lets be honest, its what WotC was hoping for since they started focusing on commander.
Yeah the RC hinting in the official announcement that WOTC had been in talks with them about the bans for a year made it kinda seem like a farewell note lol even without the absolutely rabid player backlash, it was clear wizards was not happy
They made huge mistakes. Wotc was behind them alredy. Now they will just be more bold ans up front
Tbh I've been playing edh since before wotc picked it up. The first set they printed that started to mess with the format called conspiracy with homeward path and silent blade oni. Now we have commander specific cards and reprints like mana crypt that shouldn't have seen reprint take over the format because they were widely available enough to effect casual tables.
The one ring and mox opal would be next thing on the list of cards that will be banned.
A matter of time? They were maliciously harassed and unceremoniously hunted down with threats of doxxing like they did something unforgivable. Matter of time or not do not act as though this is some ceremonious passing of the torch or some sort of natural cycle.
@@AFO666 yes it was a matter of time. The hate and harrassment is always bad but they did wrong every single thing they did. Good for them to step down in front of this disgusting trash toxoc enviroment tho
This was written in the stars the day WoTC put the words "commander" on an official product and began printing cards straight into the format. Immediate after that exact second, the fate of commander was sealed and the ball began to roll down the hill.
Jeweled Lotus is a stupid card that never should've been made. Dockside is a ban that is understandable. The committee's bs reasoning for banning Mana Crypt reminds me of when they banned Golos. "It's too popular". The rules committee has made good decisions in the past, but they can never take criticism for the lazy/dumb/bias bans. No one deserves the violence threats. Unfortunately that's the only criticism they ever speak about.
@leviathanops4524 The Magic Historian predicted this four years ago.
Just like Modern.
I hope commander won't be like modern.. 😅
Not necessarily. Trying to take over by force would have seriously harmed them. They were always going to try to make the RC do what they wanted, but there was always a limit.
What happened this week was a dream come true for them. A safe way to take over without even having to do anything. Just handed to them on a silver platter.
Anyone who harassed the rules committee should receive lifetime DCI bans.
I'd be amazed if that didn't actually happen if WotC is able to ID them and link them to accounts.
Whats DCI?
@@zappyxp1575 i cant remember what it stands for but its what you need an account with in order to play events for magic the gathering. aka banned from events.
@@zappyxp1575 Duelists' Convocation International; the old name for Wizards Play Network which is the WotC branch that organises/manages competitive play.
I do not condone doxxing but sometimes my conviction is tested.
Idk why we’d expect wizards to manage it well. Modern got worse. Their commander focus made the format worse. Standard got moved to 3 years as a PR move.
All signs point towards this being the beginning of the end for formal Commander.
Death of Formal Commander, a rebirth for casual EDH.
standard is better than ever. What are you talking about?
Standard is fun and modern is at its best since mh2 (tbf i didnt play modern long before mh2)
When did you come in? @@ChrisThe1
Honestly I don’t think commander is going to change that much. They may unban a few sillier cards, but considering how slow the RC was about card management I’d expect similar from WOTC. It just doesn’t make sense for them to ban cards when they can simply argue that it’s for different power levels.
@@nickybeingnicky to standard? well, maybe better that ever is an overstatement, but it's in a great state.
Bottom line, people need to stop getting butthurt over trying and then failing to use a children's card game product as a sudo stock market. If you're that hard up to play monopoly, Hasbro already has a product for you to do that. Threatening people isn't going to restore the money you lost investing in cardboard.
And basically everyone can buy stock with their phone these days, and you'll probably make more money too.
pseudo
And what about the people who spent big money on chase mythics, not for investment returns but simply to play them? They are the big losers in all of this, and the actions of the RC and WotC caused them to lose massive amounts of cash because they dared to buy into Commander to play it
@@googlename5125 literally don't care. they lost the money the moment they bought the cards. the value of the card is irrelevant if you don't plan to resell it.
Except it will if WotC unbans crypt and Jeweled Lotus.
Sheldon isn’t even cold yet and wotc has already taken over
Have you not seen what these buffoons did?!?! How could WotC not get rid of them?
I call BS on the notion that WotC didn’t want this outcome (the bans and eventual rules control). If WotC didn’t like the bans, the could easily reverse them now. Furthermore, this outcome allows WotC to shift blame on the rules committee, even though this seems to have been pushed by WotC in the first place. It’s basically a win-win for WotC.
Would wizards have banned lutri?
Companion is what i point to to show my concern about wizards being in charge of commander.
Companions originally didn't work within the rules of EDH. The Rules Committee pushed for Companion to be viable and warped the format around allowing it. Lot of folks forgot that.
I present to you, the funky shit of Eminence effects.
@@carumsarene yeah, a lot of people missed the plot with Companions, much like a lot of people missed the plot with the Wish cards. It's a hundred-card, Singleton, predominantly multiplayer format, sans sideboard. Lutri would have been a non-issue had they opted to just think about things first...
Yes they would've banned it. Wotc gave the RC the heads up to pre-ban it. This is common knowledge.
Now what they should've done was just ban as commander/ban as companion and let lutri remain a card for the 99
Wizards told RC way ahead of time "hey you should probably be ready to ban this card day 0" so yeah, probably.
Have people forgotten they sent the literal Pinkerton's after a guy who got a set a bit too early than the release of the set? Imagine what they would do over death threats.
i'm completely behind wotc/hasbro getting in touch with the fbi and setting up visits with some salty investor parasites sending threats
Seeing as how death threats don't hurt their bottom line, but set leaks do, we all know the answer to what WOTC would care about here
Who do you think wizards was paying to send the death threats? 👀
Tbh death threats is a non issue for this company, they simply don't care about it, while early reviews of bad sets absolutely hurt sales
@bruvaroni Trust me, the internet has *plenty* of people willing to send death threats for no charge.
The most egregious thing is that people don’t know how tiers work. It really makes you wonder the level of basic knowledge people are working with. Seriously
Now instead of a seven every deck will be a 4 lol
@@YashaSkavennah, it's totes a 3. Disregard the show and tell.
This is an issue where people needed to be able to hold more than one thought in their heads at a time.
I don’t care for some of these cards being banned.
The bans will overall probably be good for the format.
The RC did not handle the rollout of these bans right.
There is a right way and a wrong way to express anger towards a decision.
Cardboard isn’t a good investment.
This sucks for people who had a lot of money wrapped up in those cards.
WotC has great designers and great people working for them.
Hasbro wants to squeeze every last cent out of the players and will likely interfere with what’s best for the format.
All of those can be true at the same time.
the RC absolutely handled the roll out correctly. bans should not have warnings of any kind when finance bros exist.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Not consulting the entity that exists to advise you when making a decision that effects millions of dollars whilst also not in full agreement on the decision is a terrible way to handle a ban. This was incompetently done, they expressly admitted it. The RC was unfortunately an incompetent body due to the lack of support and help from the community to enable a group of 5 volunteers to manage the biggest format in magic. It's sad that they are gone but it is the best decision in a bad spot.
Was about to "thumbs up" this until you said "WotC has great designers and great people working for them. " That's just not true. Rosewater is a garbage game designer and their Wotc division is more focused on profit and political buffoonery.
@@bobby45825Assuming arguendo that what you claim about M.R. is true, I was not aware that every single person in WotC was exactly like him to such an extent that claims about the people at WotC can be verified by seeing if they're true of him.
@@bobby45825
Checks facts:
Rosewater has been lead designer on the following sets over the last 5 years or so.
OT Junction, Lost Caverns, March of the Machines, All Will Be One, Unfinity, Neon Dynasty, Crimson Vow, Strixhaven, Zendikar Rising, Throne of Elsrain, War of the Spark.
Sure, there’s a couple of duds in there, but most of those sets are bangers. Sounds like you’re just a bitter guy behind a keyboard that can’t admit to objective reality. You can dislike business decisions while still recognizing good design, you just don’t seem to want to.
Ppl shouldn't make tcg about card prices tbh. Card games should be about fun and not trying to make every card expensive. I but sets based on what i like not what it is worth. I trade of what i need not prices.
Capitalism, as always, just ruins every good thing it touches.
And there's 2 options for people who want to "invest" anyway - The Reserve List and Secret Lair. Stocks or even a savings account are much wiser options, but if yor are hellbent on buying cards to make money, those are the places to park your cash.
@@kozad86 I just don't sell my cards tbh. If I don't play cards I don't buy the cards secret lair is too expensive to just buy so it's not for me
right, but the price is based on the demand, and the demand is based on the usefulness and the scarcity. There may be many niche bulk rares that work for whatever you're building, but cards that are both broadly useful and rarely printed are going to be expensive to acquire. It would be nice if all cards were of equal value, like how in Arena a rare is a rare instead of bulk vs. chase, but it's not really possible due to the nature of _trading_ card games. There's a market and the market determines the value. It's not like some appointed individual is setting the prices.
@@Shade7x I'm just saying I get demand but then at that point they should do re prints. Bc it's not worth my life savings for 1 card . ( Also I just use pre made decks bc other decks are too expensive). I don't look at the value of cards for sets is the entire point sets shouldn't be about the value of cards
I still don't understand how there was an "official" rules committee in the first place 🤷♂️
Let the enshittification continue, enjoy the hobby as you will, do whatever you'd like to save money or not give wizards money, they're a lottery company now and have turned their backs on the actual players, this whole thing is their fault from printing these cards in the first place, printing the chase cards in the last year after they knew this ban was coming and then they take over the format in the end? F wotc, counterfeit everything you want to, play limited, never buy sealed product, buy everything you need from your lgs, sealed barely supports them anyways, margins on magic are awful, they are killing both the hobby and all the stores that have built them into the position they're at in the first place.
Proxies baybeeeeeeeeee
May I recommend using more periods, when you're writing a comment? Huge run-on sentences are unpleasant to read.
@@PowerfulSkeleton No you may not, it was a rant, I initially wrote just the first 3 words then got upset. Nobody is forcing you to read it clockwork orange style.
Unfortunately, friend, playing limited IS buying sealed product. Buying sealed from your LGS will encourage the LGS to continue buying things from WotC because... well, they expect you to KEEP buying it.
Voting with your wallet only works if you and lots of other people commit fully and wholly to the cause. You'll have to give up limited, give up on buying packs from your LGS, move completely to a different game. No on-the-fence nonsense. Show your LGS that Magic is worthless to you so they'll stop buying it.
@@ArceusShaymin Magic isn't worthless to me, I like the game, playing limited is such a small drop in the bucket compared to collectors which is where they make the majority of their money or even casual players buying boxes every set, I could play 8 drafts in 2 months for this set and wizards makes like 3 bucks a pack off me or 70 bucks CAD, one guy buys 3 collectors and that's more than a hundred. It's also the only way I can support the LGS, you can only buy so many accessories, I mean I know the margins are bad but the difference is there between what a store needs to make to be profitable and a massive corporation. I'm buying a play experience which is exactly what I want to pay for. Focusing on limited and constructed is what magic should be but they're way more profitable as an unsanctioned lottery company. I'm saying do whatever you want and can to stiff them on everything they're doing badly and only pay them for the things that aren't scummy like limited.
I cannot wrap my head around the fact some members of this community seeing this as a victory as it is quite the opposite. The CRC was a shield between us and WOTC and perhaps they weren't the greatest shield but it was better than nothing which is what we have now.
If you consider a filter full of holes a shield, then sure...
@@heliobarbosa3525 even a weak shield is better than none at all.
The weight system is already in place on arena. It doesnt work
And that’s with a fucking computer doing it can you imagine dealing with this in paper?!
Who could have guessed that tying deck strength to individual cards doesn't accurately assess the strength!
I'd imagine a card like Thassa's will land tier 4 but the card itself isn't necessarily strong enough to stand on its own. I don't think many people have a problem if someone wins with a self mill deck that holds Oracle if the game goes too long, it's the fact that it's a piece of a 2 card win con that gives it it's reputation. But with their current ruling both those decks are considered exactly equal in strength which is just baffling.
We're already seeing promising community growth! Rule zero went from, "Don't worry my deck is only a 7" to "Don't worry my deck is only a 3"
except this time people will know exactly what 3 means unlike the 7 that was completely meaningless
@Asghaad maybe? Not really the way it was described so far, granted it's a work in progress. As described, a deck with 99 level 3 cards is the same class as a deck with a single level 3 cards and 98 level 1 cards. It certainly doesn't fix any of the problems with rule zero
@@Mobius_llyes but now that person with 1 level 3 card is heavily incentivised to swap out that card (or fully step up the deck to level 3)
@@Mobius_ll it does, noone can claim they have "power 2" deck and sneak some P3-4 card in they would have to reveal that fact, and ask table if its ok to play that card at lower power table ...
right now NOTHING stops someone "its power about 7 trust me" guys to do that because its technically not against the rules but it WILL be against rules when this system is aplied ... if you say your deck is 2 it better be otherwise you will get called a cheater ... no buts not ifs no excuses if that cars is 3 then your deck is 3 ...
@@Mobius_ll To be fair, thats kinda your wake up call for what kind of deck you are running. If you are playing a low power deck with a few high powered cards, you are just playing an inconsistently high power deck. That will just lead to frustration to both you and your opponents. Your decks "ceiling"(Best case scenario) should be considered and not be too far separated from it's "floor"(Average hand).
The internet induces a level of mania that never ceases to amaze me.
it's like driving on the highway.
People would be killed over a 150M asset loss in most industries.
Show of hands who never gave the RC a single thought until this 'controversy'.
Aye. They seemed like they were doing a decent job. So people lost money, happens to everyone.
A Rules Committee that people don't need to think about is the best kind for a casual format.
It allows people to think about the game and the people they're directly dealing with as opposed to the people making decisions who aren't even there.
They've been so hands off that the last time I heard about them prior to this was when that 5 color artifact commander got banned. I like the idea of the format being ran by the community but the RC just wasn't it.
Yeah, but if they dont have the balls to take threaths from angry nerds their incompetence is proven, not last week, but now
that was totally the best thing... when you aren't hearing much - you are doing a good job. Light handed bans were appropriate - one or two cards at a time before they got financially huge. Waiting on Dockside became a problem, but a ban of that single card wouldn't have yielded this backlash. Jeweled Lotus was a known problem when revealed, but they waited on that too. Banning Jeweled Lotus at another date and time would have been understandable too. Mana Crypt has absolutely no good reason to be banned. Sol Ring is better, it has been around for decades, it is cheaper than Gaea's Cradle or Mishra's Factory, Grim Monolith is still legal, not every deck even wants it. Again, if it is an expensive fast mana issue, there are other cards out there that would need to be banned too. Banning these 3 all at one time proves they planned to quit after bombing Sheldon's memory.
I still think the best approach for commander is to have a big official banlist and stop the soft bans, its easier to allow people to play banned card they like with a explanation then it is to request they remove something in their deck. The second never worked in all 7 years i play this game but the first one worked multiple times, allowing griselbrand in a deck because they made a liliana flavor deck or iona in a ramp angels deck
this, put the onus on the players wanting to use the problem cards not the other way around
I agree! I rule 0 Griselbrand in my Liliana deck with the other demons. I also have a self rule of I’ll never tutor for Griselbrand, if I happen to get him, I get him.
People get really mad about their cards being banned. I get it as I also own mana crypt, Dockside, and jeweled lotus. But people seem to forget that there is something that has been around possibly longer than the RC or even EDH itself. House rules people. You and your friend group want to play with these banned cards, then go ahead as the commander ban list says, these are just suggested cards that they feel would ruin your games with friends. Come on, people, we can be civil about things like this.
People let me play Grizelbrand in a Ghave soul sisters deck for literally months because I ask nicely, and said "if literally anyone, for any reason doesn't want me to play with this, I'll sub it out."
Rule zero is there for a reason my friends, so dumb stuff like this doesn't happen
No amount of House Rules is going to prevent the price of banned cards falling. And I am saying this as a fan of the bans.
@@sathrielsatanson666yes and people probably should finally get that collector items are NO INVESTMENT and lost money. Doesn’t matter if its stamps, games or tcg cards. Buy them if you can afford to burn the money, else don’t.
@@benjaminbaer5485 sure thing, you could easily say and argument that customers outrage is silly but even if that was the case WotC has to deal with potential oitcomes of that outrage. In this respect the stock investment is flawed to MtG situation.
On the other hand I hate evrything about the CCG monetisation so there's that 😆
The two main problems I see with this are:
1) This change is irreversible. The RC went from the literal people who invented the format straight to people who are on the payroll of Hasbro.
2) Why would they ever ban a card? If the card is busted it will sell packs. Also what stops them from rolling a die every year and unban one or two cards from the list, making cards like Courser of Kruphix or Paradox Engine selling points of upcoming sets?
Courser of Kruphix is a legal card in nearly every format. Do you mean Prophet of Kruphix?
@@FaytsShadow
Considering Courser isn't banned in Commander, it's pretty obvious he is referring to Prophet...
@@boringmonkey6958 no need for snark, I just asked a question.
Hey bro, you do realize that a couple of members on the RC are on Hasbro's payroll right?
@@khub5660 most of the community doesn’t know that
This is no good. Shouldn't go forward. The format needs a fan lead rules committee. Not Hasbro.
*led
But yes
It already has that in Rule 0. Why did anyone give anyone else the ability to control your casual EDH game? The only ban list I deal with is the one the store comes up with or the one my friends and I come up with. If WOTC wants to sanction events, it can create its own ban list for formal play. Otherwise, I could not give two cents for anything WOTC has to say on it.
A fan led rules committee would do nothing more than craft rules to satisfy they way THEY believe the game should be played. Well, what if a massive swath of the player base disagrees? The best case you can have is a group of people who maybe make ban suggestions. A suggested list that people can either adopt or not. But it has to be presented that way. Then all you need to do at the beginning of a game is say "RL Rules" or "EDH Rules" (meaning Rule 0 applies full stop).
@@NOLA-vv3sz rule 0 is a worthless cop out.
@@NOLA-vv3sz WotC has sanctioned Commander events for years, using the RC's rules. But now, they have full control. This will likely mean any WPN-network store will have to adhere to WotC's rules to run Commander nights. That means tier/ban lists. That means no proxies.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 So having a discussion with people you play with is a cop out? EDH is player driven. It was made up to have something outside of WOTC in the first place. Why do you need a committee to tell you what you and your friends can play? Why do you need someone to do it for you? To me, letting someone else deal with it for you is the cop out. You are asking someone else to do your work for you and relying on them to tell the mean bad cards to go away. If you don't want to play in groups who use mana rocks, grow stones and say so. If the majority of people tell you to pound sand, then you know what you want in a game is different than anyone else. So, you play their way or find another game.
i rly dislike people saying "its just a card game" regarding the threats, cause first, no one can decide for anyone else what they consider how important, and second, this implies that such behaviour can be excused under certain circumstances (when its not about "just a game"), which it cant
Yeah, there is literally no context where it's okay to threaten someone else's life. Period.
@Mischievous_Moth i would say none but very very few. For hyperbole sake if you are a rso and approach my kids, death threats will happen
@@jetvoidweller well, we should then specify "anonumous death threats online". in your example your identity is unmistakenly clear, since its your kids, so id say thats a different action alltogether. now, surely we can construct some other scenario, but imo: two wrongs do not make a right. whatever the offence, theres appropriate ways to handle it, and death threats aint it.
It makes people saying those things look really stupid:
- There is no circumstance that authorizes threatening to harm other people like that;
- Do people really spend $100s/year on a children card game? That would be weird. MAYBE it is something else, like a collectible... Just maybe.
@@heliobarbosa3525 true, but to me goes even further: if i chose to spend ungodly sums on a childrens game then thats exactly as valid as anything else people spend money on. people cannot make generalized statements about what is to be taken seriously and what isnt, and the self righteousness of that is aggravating to me
Man, don't wanna know how Sheldon would've felt about this.
Bro is rolling in his grave
totally... his "friends" sabotaged the RC and then quit. Kinda like - take care of my tree when I pass, only to find out they are pissing on it and then chopped it down.
@@vaderwashere365 Holy shit shut up, people like you are the reason we are stuck with wotc now. Sheldon would be furious at people like YOU trash talking people that worked for free for the sake of the format. Even if it was an indisputable mistake, a single mistake is in no world a reason to kick them out.
Well I hope those who cried / abused the Rules committee because they couldn’t play with their cardboard anymore are happy. They may have just ruined commander AND still don’t get to play with the cardboard they stupidly paid $200 for.
tbh i was more sad that i couldn't the cards that I luckily open from packs instead of the prices. not everyone spends that much on the cards.
I'm happy they are gone. Hopefully I'll be allowed to play mtg the way I want without being told my way of playing is wrong. I want to play powerful cards, just proxy them if you don't want to pay for it.
Seems like most people are pleased with the change so far, especially after the livestream today.
WOTC already ran the show anyway, don’t kid yourself.
@@MekanikKommandoh88 do not agree
Even if Wizards has some good intentions, they did not fully control the format until now and are you really hopeful of the same people that printed Lotus and Dockside managing the format directly? That's something you shouldn't kid yourself over
You can still play with them...
"Children's cards?" No child plays this game. This is "luxury cardboard"
I don't know. Looking at the way this community behaves sometimes, I don't see a lot of luxury, but I do see a lot of children 😅
It's a yugioh joke. Children's card game and all.
Children that handle decks they cost an arm and a leg. Is this game even for kids?
Yeah but kids can have contact with this game even if its bulk it may get them hooked for life
Dude, I was 9 the first time I played.
Edit: Removed that second bit, that was uncalled for and kinda mean
Tbh I would step down too, it's kind of a thank less job and Wizard doesn't offer any support so just let the multimillion dollar company take the heat instead
Yeah I'd be like "Alright screw this community, they deserve whatever WotC does to the format."
I guarantee the death threats were coming from investors and not players. You invested and you lost, that's what happens when you gamble...
Agreed, privileged types with alot of money to move around have tendencies to respond maliciously when slighted.
This is a trash take specifically because the “loss” wasn’t a natural down turn in the assets’ values but instead was an artificially induced crash. With other assets this action would incur severe legal penalties, but the RC and WOTC get away with it because cards aren’t an “official”investment.
@@gloomy8795 That's the consequence of making or engaging with hobbies as a market. Video games and trading cards at their core are meant to sell as either entertainment or game pieces. The market venturists trying to induce scarcity and create value using said hobbies is nothing but pure unabashed greed. Just becauae you created or engaged in an unregulated market, doesn't remove you from the consequences.
@@gloomy8795 If you want to buy toys that appreciate in value, then find another hobby to ruin because we don't want you.
No one owes you anything and we'd all be a lot happier if every finance bro sold it all and stopped screwing over our hobby.
Yeah because with real investments, you're agreeing to a good faith estimate of ROI. When you make a real investment, there are, ostensibly, people working to make that investment worth something. This type of person does not exist with cardboard. In fact, there are people indirectly working against your cards maintaining value.
Saw someone on reddit talk about how "its not like olivia is a goodie two shoes" in response to threats even after it was revealed she didn't vote for the decision. its absolutely sick how people think its acceptable to talk about real people who quite literally did no harm.
Its unacceptable to ban Crypt and Lotus and very harmful.
To think the rules committee did anything without the approval of wizards is ridiculous.
Haven't played this game in months. Originally I was skeptical and suspicious of the rules committee, I always assumed they were here for the insider trading. I feel lame for thinking that.
The writings been on the walls since war of the spark. This game's community is on a timer, and that timer is directly linked to how much money that's gonna be milked by hasbro and wotc by extension. They orchestrated this whether or not you wanna understand that. The cards banned last week led to these events, and these events line the pockets of people who probably have never touched a booster pack. Only downhill from here, frens.
This whole fiasco is by design. We've all been fooled yet again into fighting each other.
I wish the RC didn’t give-in to terrorism. I mean, I wish they weren’t terrorized in the first place, of course. But I think some of these psychopaths are going to feel positively reinforced with the RC stepping down. A partial victory.
Did you think they could ban Lotus and Crypt and keep existing? LMAO
If they unban the cards, theyre going to be validating death threats to get your way.
It's really not that simple. Death threats aside, this decision was poorly executed and fractured the player base. Death threats are wrong... but you can't just use that as an excuse to ignore the other half of the player base that wasn't okay with the ban.
@@salvocrey That doesn't change the fact that it would still be seen as getting their way with death threats.
People believe what they want to believe, regardless of whether it's fact or not.
@@Mischievous_Moth too late for that "they" already succeeded, that doesnt mean the appropriate action shouldnt be made just because it would validate some loonies
I don't think the majority who wanted the bans lifted were threatening, highlighting a minority backing is detrimental to the reasons
The crypt ban was flat out wrong
@@salvocrey Half is a WILDLY wrong assumption. 50%+ of players don't even know it happened and don't care because it doesn't effect them. You got echo chambered friend. I wouldn't even say this comment section is 50/50. You also have to consider how many people who aren't happy with the ban do not want it reverted. Many cEDH players have other format backgrounds, where they are used to wotc bad bans. They are mature enough to handle bans that negatively impact them and are fine with it staying.
You would 1000% piss of more people by reverting the ban than you have banning it in the first place, that is a horrible idea.
The 4 tier system sounds alright. It reminds me of how competitive Pokemon works (the video games, not the card game). Cards heavily played in cEDH will be tier 4, everything else you see on EDHREC will be tier 2 or 3 depending on popularity, and the rest of the cards are tier 1. Once in a while they'll look at the decks people play in the different tiers and shift cards up or down to balance things out.
There are stratagies that doesnt matter if you have 1 or 10 "Tier 4 cards" they are still a 1.
If im playing Missy Morphs, i can havea dozen of powerful lands, and it would still be worse than most precons.
And by this definition, a precon with an ancient tomb is the same power as a cEDH deck and without it, its as powerful as a Piper deck with 99 Wastes.
Some decks NEED high power cards to even touch a 7.
@gordonross3270 Since it seems like they're still ironing it out, I hope they end up changing their thinking on this before setting anything in stone. Tying the tier to individual cards is 95% of the time completely ineffective outside egregious examples that can win just by existing. It'd be much harder to quantify but trying to fix tier around deck speed/win cons/combos would make for a much more useful metric.
@@gordonross3270 What would be stopping you from playing your Missy Morphs deck with 10 cEDH staples?
@@gordonross3270 Your deck will likely be as bad with Ancient Tomb, which is why they mention the house rule to allow it on casual play and it can still function on tier 1 without it. That is better alternative compare to banning Ancient Tomb, which would affect everyone including you.
@@Skronkful nothing. But have those 10 cards doesn't MAKE it cEDH, whereas, having a single one makes it a 4.
Power creep and reprints has had a bigger impact to my card values yet no one is throwing a fit about it.
There are people like Rudy with literal warehouses full of these cards and when you ban their super staples in the same time as the fed chair reduces interest rates it hugely hurts people who are trying to make MTG the next bitcoin
@@benriemersma8137 good
@@benriemersma8137 yeah, maybe their judgement was a bit off when they tried to turn a card game into a stock market.
@@benriemersma8137 Dont treat cardboard like it's the stock market lmaooo
@@benriemersma8137 G O O D
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Sorry you had to make content while sick. Hope you feel better soon.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
WotC was always going to take over running Commander.
They absolutely aren't doing it because of the ban backlash, it just gives them good cover to act now.
Maybe that was the added benefit of releasing pushed cards; to accelerate or push this outcome, maybe they won't ever unban the cards, but get slightly close to it.
They having a plan like that (and other tidbits lost in the time) shows they were working on something already. RC making a colossal mistake that drew a lot of threats (which is wrong) gave them the perfect window. I do think they didn't expect it right now, since their bracket plan isn't fully fledged.
@pleasantkenobi the problem with saying "people who make death threats aren't part of our community they're outliers" is that it's using a No True Scottsman fallacy to defensively deflect any blame or responsibility from a group or community for the actions of people who they share identities with to avoid dealing with the signs that our community has a problem with people like that finding a home in our community and denies there's a problem at all and in doing so ensure the problem will continue because we all collectively refuse to do the work of making those types of people feel unwelcome.
"No true Magic or Commander fan would make death threats because they're upset at RC decisions" doesn't help anyone. It certainly doesn't help the MTG casual player base fix a problem it clearly has. It's just a critical thought terminating tactic that denies a problem exists.
Totally agree. I also find the shaming that every creator feels the need to do to be a little pointless. The people dishing out death threats don't feel bad about it and won't start feeling bad after some person on the internet says they should. Everyone with basic empathy knows that its wrong and wouldn't do it. The people who did it completely lack empathy. Why do we have to keep giving these people attention for their shitty behavior?
but it was an extremely small vocal minority making the threats. on the flip side it could be argued its also completely unfair to paint the rest of the massive commander and magic communities with this brush and to somehow put this on everyone else when they had nothing to do with it and could do nothing to stop it. you're not necessarily denying that there's a problem by correctly identifying who is causing it.
People suck ass I’d much rather have had the committee handling it than wizards. Glad everyone lost their fucking shit over a few cards. It wasn’t that serious.
I don't think they were so much angry about the cards as the money they paid for them.
But like... it's objectively just cardboard, paying more than $5 for a card was what sealed their fates from the start.
@@Mischievous_Moth of course I’m sure it was more about the money spent on the cards and what not. To lose your mind so hard that you threaten people is pretty weak though. I’m sure everyone will get some new expensive cards to chase now though with wizards holding the reins
I'm definitively NOT glad.
Let's not pretend Kenobi wasn't riling people up on Twitter.
I'm not on Twitter, what did he do?
Well, I'm in Brazil. Twitter has to pay a fine for ignoring laws, they sent the money to the wrong bank account... Twitter X thing might be available only next week lol
Welp, a big part of the appeal for me at least for Commander was that it was a player-run format. It felt like it was a community of people, rather than feeling like a corporation ran format the way Modern and Standard is. Also so sad to see reactionary conservatives like Tim Pool add fuel to the fire, certainly didn't make the death threats better.
That Russian plant weighed in? Oh, goody
@@JohnnyToboggan Yes I understand, WOTC is in control of printing and designing the product, therefore you could argue that they've always ran the format. But I disagree that it's the same.
The RC is player run and volunteer (or I guess was), and their only goal was to maintain a decent format. Maintaining a fun environment is NOT WOTC'S primary goal, and it NEVER will be. Their goal is to maximize profit and make as much $$$$ as humanely possible. For example, The One Ring. The One Ring has a 50% play rate in Modern (as a COLORLESS card). If it weren't the One Ring, the chase ultra mythic unverses beyond super promo 100+ dollar card, it would've already been banned. I just don't trust a corporation, sorry. You can put your trust in the company who can't maintain a decent ban list for literally any format they manage, besides possibly Pauper. But I'd trust a group of nerds more than a group of board members staring at graphs, but you do you bud.
Lmao this is not political you all acted like the bi-party American worker bees you are.
@@JohnnyToboggan take your conspiracy bs elsewhere.
“Conservatives like Tim Pool” 😂😂😂 oh brother.
Give full control of the format to the very people who ruined it in the first place, I don't see how this can go wrong
Ruined it? How has the format been ruined? Why we acting like no one was playing commander because of how awful it is over the past decade?
Modern was a players Format now its the New Standart Commander was a players Format now its the Main Target for Wizards 3 of the 4 banned cards are "for" Commander Designed the Powercreep in Moder is so extrem you cant play old decks that where good for 8 years you have the last 4 Premium Sets and a couple cards here and there the same is slowly Comming for Commander when you look at it you can See it that probably what was meant but Commander is so big it's better with absorbing that extra stuff Greatings @@ArCSelkie37
If we are being honest, the community probably deserves whatever is coming for it with wotc in control. Some of us couldn't manage to be cordial with their disagreements and the rest of us didn't shame them enough. I'm not just talking about the threats, that doesn't need to be spoken for, I'm talking about the more aggressive criticism and backlash that populated the internet. The people who trashed the entire RC and their history while calling for their removal over a single ban apparently did not get enough pushback or we wouldn't be here. This really needs to be a wakeup call for the community to self police these bad actors who will take every bump in the road to the very extreme. Just because they aren't going as far as death threats does not mean their actions won't have consequences on us all.
wasn't a single ban though. that's the problem they banned 600$ plus of cards in a very shitty way. idk if you had any of these cards but put your self in the spot of people who have a set of the cards that have been banned or the people that opened a super cool art of the mana crypt recently. I could go on about how badly this was handle by the RC and the community but at the end of the day 5 people just cut millions of $ out of people pockets so i would say the outrage is valid (not the death threats).
@@lotus_pdxg3586 I have a copy of each. I am sane enough to understand that I can not expect to have the ability to sell a card I bought for the price I bought it at. I am buying a game piece, not an investment. The rest of the formats get this. Modern has been BEGGING for a TOR ban, which is the same price btw. Also its 400 dollars i would know I own them
@@lotus_pdxg3586how is it done badly? It's a game. Not an investment. This is not real estate. And if you go back a year in to 2023 the rules committee and the cag we're talking about banning these cards. Not Nadu he didn't exist.
@@lotus_pdxg3586 millions of dollars? Bro, get real. There aren't enough copies of mana crypt and jeweled lotus or even dockside extortionist to equal a monetary value of millions of dollars in people's card inventories. There're more mtg cards in landfills than people own. Cardboard cards that are game pieces are not an investment vehicle. They never have been. Cards don't hold a monetary value unless they are sold for that amount of money. A mana crypt before the ban wasn't a $200 bill in your pocket, you may have thought it was but, in reality it wasn't. That's not how an investment works either. Real investors don't buy stocks or shares that do not make them money passively.
God you people are so fucking snobby.
8:50 I think I missed something, what's wrong with the art on "Trouble in Pairs"?
It was stolen from other artists
the new power brackets are useless, its effectively 4 diferent bannlists/format
and for each bracket there is a new powerscaling that you can optimize with a cedh mentality.
thats what i do, i optimize my decks to the limit whyle using my personal bannlist. i find it enjoyable to build my decks without all the super staples and still being able to be on par with my playgroups that do use them.
I literally have no clue what they are thinking with that. For example they mention Ancient Tomb is a 4 (most powerful) with Land Destruction on cards like Vampiric Tutor. Umm, so if I have an upgraded precon with Ancient Tomb, is it a 4? Is 4 CEDH level? Because I know my Frodo/Sam deck has a Balin's Tomb (flavor functional Ancient Tomb) but that deck is prob a 2, not a high power 3 or CEDH whatsoever. Is 1 precon level? What about jank and everything weaker? WTF about Sol Ring is that a 4? Does every deck with a Sol Ring become High Power/CEDH level? I'm so confused, I guess I'll find out what happens when it happens.
That’s great for you! Glad it works 🎉
@@elitemaster666 I can answer two of your questions, 1 is precon level according to them, and Sol ring is a tier 1 card alongside swords to plowshares because obviously those are two of the weakest cards in the game. (Last bit was sarcasm)
you mean you have FOUR different "formats" to build decks for with different power levels, scaling and "meta" ? ... how is that a bad thing again ? ...
@@Asghaad oh no i agree with that sentiment, the problem is that wizards is thinking of implementing this as a better way to find pick-up games instead of regular powerlevel.
Not to be cocky, but my decks would most likely fall in the weakest bracket, but i assure you they can easily hang with higher power non-cedh.
I'm guessing its an smart way for wizards to abolish most of the bannlist(the ones they can make money on) and just put them in the highest tier.
My first reaction to the article was "this is the worst timeline" and nothing has changed my mind yet.
The financial community is responsible for why the game is the state it's in. The scalpers and investors who turned a game of cardboard rectangles into a shadow stock market. Only thing we can do to actually make a positive difference now is push for the normalization and accessibility of proxies.
If you need to convince people that proxys are OK, just remind them that wotc tried to sell proxys for a 1000 bucks on the 30th year anniversary of mtg. If it's OK for them to sell proxys, I don't see why I can't use them if I only want to play the game.
Proxy EVERYTHING
@@d.w.7203 It's possible to get the Endless Punishment precon for under $30 just using proxies.
In this last Magic wotc stream regarding commander future plans, a playgroup member in chat asked if they're planning to roll back the bans that alot disagree with, to which a community member replied "No negation with terrorists whatsoever". Friend got a good laugh out of that one, being that hes a veteran🤣
Even if 100% of the threat allegations were real, this kind of behavior is unhinged. If wotc taking over gates off these people from any degree on influence on my hobbies, I'm writing that off as a victory.
Im laughing at anyone that thinks WotC...which designed and failed to test cards like Nadu, Skullclamp and created obviously busted cards like Dockside...will do even a mediocre job managing Commander.
No; *whats embarrassing is players sending death threats to people over god damned cardboard.*
Commander is dead. Long live EDH.
lmao
Nothing gets gen z's rocks off more than pronouncing things dead on the internet!
commander is more alive than ever
@@kerolokerokerolo HAHAHAHA.
Hasbro is about to milk Commander for every cent until nobody plays it ever again.
@@brianpenner9286 I'm a millennial but okay.
Before he passed, Sheldon recommended a commander varient called Concquest. I personally found it to be better then commander since they whacked 98% of all fast mana (including sol ring) and other cards you mentioned at the end of the video. Its sad that people have behaved this way but honestly, after my time playing conquest is somewhat agree with the ban on crypt and lotus not for their value but what they did for the format. With Conquest also being outside of WotCs ability to infience bans they hit cards that are problematic. I highly recomend the varient for anyone wanting to try something new
Having read up on this, I'm surprised that cEDH players haven't really taken to this format. It has a faster pace, more encouragement for combos, and generally seems better suited to faster action. That surprise left once I read through the ban list and saw every card banned by the RC included in their opening ban list. Just kinda shows to me that cEDH was never truly about making a competitive deck.
@TheMrbigtires cEDH is just as the name suggests. Competitive EDH. Using the tools provided by the card pool in EDH, you make the most competitive deck you can and play against like-minded players. cEDH isn't a format (not yet anyway). It's rule 0 in action.
Also as a further heads-up, I did some more reading after hours today and couldn't find anywhere where Sheldon was mentioned as the founder of Conquest, just some dude who goes by Shaper. The format does look interesting, but I have some reservations about the overall structure.
@@TheMrbigtires there was an article he posted shortly before his death regarding players asking for a seperate bin list for CEDH
Hope you are feeling better soon!
There is nothing casual about a tier system and working it out for each deck. There are financial options that can be applied to different tiers of precon.
I definitely cant blame the RC for stepping down from the format after what happened. I think anyone in their position would have and i hate that a bunch of immature people went through and drove them to make this decision. Ultimately i dont trust Wotc to make the best decisions for the format so long as they have to answer to Hasbro. The game devs may do their best, but like you said. Jeweled Lotus, dockside, and mana crypt never would have been banned under wotc. Their higher ups wouldnt allow it.
This wont be the death of commander but id be lying if i said i wasnt wary of this.
"This is why we can't have nice things"
Almost everyone agrees that WoTC created the problem by creating the offending cards, and yet people also think it's a "win" that those same people control the format???
Remember for every spurious ban WOTC does, or every card thats left in the format when it should have been banned, you have your power level trolls and MTG finance bros to thank. They collectively threw this tantrum and now the wizards design team holds the keys to the kingdom. If you sent harassment or threats, you deserve all the shit you get.
Spurious bans: Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus. Cards left in format: a lot of annoying things. Sounds about the same to me.
Sending nothing but love your way, man. Always been a voice of reason, be it in the Warhammer space, or in the WotC/Magic space.
Hope you feel better soon!
WOTC wanted/planned this for a long time- they never liked commander not being an official format. ever since "commander" was printed on cards and we started seeing ban lists. the committee shouldn't have existed, guarantee wotc is way more than happy to acquire full governance over what has always supposed to stay as a strictly casual format created by players.
commander should have never become "cedh".
and now we'll simply have a massive tear between those who would still support whatever wotc does with our format, and those who dislike wotc and the overall reaching into our formal.
so who's down for some flesh and blood?
Was with you until the end 😅
I think the silver lining for wotc taking control of the RC is that they'll have access to a lot more data and they'll have people working on it full time. I'm gonna try to be positive about that.
Everyone who talked about the bans said they were good bans for the gameplay, they were ban worthy cards, but then would talk about the finances, as if cardboard for a children's card game should be something that holds massive value.
Well, congratulations. WotC will never ban your $74,000 card, because they will never have the incentive to ban the card in a casual format like Commander, and Hasbro will be telling them not to.
Death threats might slow down and hopefully the RC members will get some peace, but this situation sucks every kind of spherical object.
Everyone - except Olivia in the RC, Josh Lee Kway, Jimmy Wong, everyone who understands why Mana Crypt should be legal in a format where Sol ring is legal. Literrally everyone... /s
@@heliobarbosa3525 I watched the Command Zone, Pleasent Kenobi and The Professor talk about this. All three of them, plus others I talked to privately, said this same thing.
Rachel Weeks said that "in a vacuum these changes are good for gameplay", and neither Josh, Jimmy nor anyone else at the Command Zone contradicted that statement.
Sorry I didn't poll every person's opinion before using such explosive language.
Question: would you be happy with the Mana Crypt ban if Sol Ring was banned as well, since you understand the format?
Those who sent death threats to the RC over bans that cost them a few bucks should take a page from the stock market bros of 1929.
I think the bracket idea has promise. Power level discussions are so nebulous. Having a starting point of some sort of concrete framework is preferable to people pulling power levels or of their asses. I assume once power level numbers come out, they'll do so with explanations and categorizations that will help facilitate rule zero discussions.
It has promise, but it's going to need a LOT of refinement and I don't really think WotC is going to put in the work.
Aye my only concern is actual implementation… like if we don’t have an easy way to basically slot your deck list into a website that calculates it, it’s going to be tedious.
@@Mischievous_Moth I honestly think they will because they have to. Even if you think the curation of their other formats isn't up to snuff, we're talking about Commander here. Tournament play makes up an extremely small percentage of their bottom line. But Commander is the golden goose of the golden goose. If they didn't think it was important, they wouldn't design every damned product towards it. They want to keep Commander players happy, and more importantly, buying. It's in their best FINANCIAL interest to REALLY listen to the community that pays the bills.
@@ArCSelkie37Actual execution and implementation will be key for sure. I imagine the major websites like Scryfall/ EDHRec/Archidekt will implement the system into their deckbuilders. Very few invested players are rawdogging Commander builds without a website these days.
"I should have had a shower today but didn't want to" Vince gets us he really does
It’s crazy. I was sad to lose some of my cards but that just means I can make new strategies. Bringing Urza back baby!
14:33 it's not about balance; it's about setting up tournaments according to their preferred tier system.
Remember that basically everything WotC does is for money; this new tier system lets them profit off the casual Commander crowd by setting up "Tier 1 Tournaments" with their own basically-banlists to keep people from being scared of CEDHers -- but also conveniently avoiding the word "ban" (and the death threats that accompany it).
You were exactly right when you said that this actually creates four mini-formats. I give it a year at most before we start seeing official WotC-sanctioned "Tier 1/2/3 Commander Tournaments" at LGS's and online. Tier 4 will use the current banlist (which probably will not change at all, or may even get some cards UNbanned); the other tiers will grow gradually more restrictive and volatile as certain decks surface to be more "competitive" within their tiers, and WotC changes the classifications of different cards to keep some decks from winning all the time in those tiers, just as they do with every other format. And they can always say "oh it's not BANNED - what an awful nasty word! No, it just means you now can only play that deck at higher-tier tournaments". (What is the difference between this and banning? The word "ban." That's literally it.)
Ironically, this will not actually keep CEDHers out. There will be a faction of people who are dedicated to competitive Tier 1 play, and whenever a particular deck begins to dominate, WotC will pick specific cards within that deck to reclassify as Tier 2, and the cycle will perpetuate ad infinitum.
It's actually a pretty smart move on their part. And I don't think it will be the death of EDH. People can still do kitchen tabletop Rule Zero casual games where tier lists are ignored completely. But we're all going to FEEL it, and we'll all start gradually modifying our decks because we will want to be able to play them in public whenever a group of strangers says they want to start a Tier 1 game, without the bothersome "this is technically a 3 but if I swap out my Pact of Negation and Cyclonic Rift it's actually a 1" conversations.
And I know that the world will continue to spin / And I know that the world will continue to spin / And I know that the world will continue to spin...
Once again no victor was declared in this mess.
I think in the long run, this was a victory for Hasbro. They now have direct control over the value of cards, and can ban/not ban very irresponsibly for the sake of money
@@caseywellington4761 I could see them strategically banning certain cards to make others rise in price.
We'll have to wait and see what they actually do though.
I hate this honestly. It’s bad for everyone. I agree with you, fuck the people that harassed them over this.
ofc they did they got death threats ... for VOLUNTARY WORK ... players got it on themself now it will get so much worse ...
people whos end death threats rly need to be found out by police and get sued its so not okay
Cops wont be involved unless there's a rich person to be chummy with and/or a minority/SW to harass.
Came back to magic after 20 years of not playing because Commander provided a format where I could play all my old, broken cards. Guess I’ll put them all back in the cupboard till another open format catches on.
I have sympathy for anyone who lost money, but it's a game. Threatening people because you gambled on an investment is stupid.
Guess we should count as fortunate that meme-stonk people are so out of their gourd they *can't* realize their investments are bunk.
@@christopherb501 I don't know, I think that would be funny to watch.
One of the unfortunate things is that those same threatening people were those who believed that jeweled lotus and mana crypt/vault were going to be the next black lotus. Not just in power, but also in value.
Tell me you know nothing about mtgfinance without telling me you know nothing at mtg finance lol. It is ok not knowing about something dumb like "mtgfinance on non RL singles", but that is not a good reason for being wrong.
Black Lotus and RL cards operate in a different way.
Wizards have in-house economist. They pump enough crypts in the market to keep it an specific value - apparently $100. Sometimes they do it right (a couple years ago, when it was reprinted twice in the year and went on The List). Now, that doesn't mean I thing cardboard should be $100. It means WotC tries to do that.
Since it is incredibly hard to get it below $100, people felt safe to keep a lot of crypts they opened in packs or "bought low" (which is a dumb take, since it isn't on RL, but it is a popular one for lands and artifacts without color identity). Not a lot of exposure, not particularly hard to break even.
A friend of mine wanted to have a crypt and asked me about the price a year ago. I said anything below $100 was good. He bought from a guy at $90, decided whe wanted to have more decks and traded it for $100+ in other cards.
If the format was under RC, if people asked me I would say: assume cards are $0 and you are burning cash if you are not using proxies.
In fact, having a bunch of mana crypts (was dumb) had one something over owning a black lotus - liquidity. It was easier to move a lot of crypts compared to one Lotus, but Lotus is in a different shelf - being an actual collectible item that won't be printed into oblivion.
That is how some people didn't bother having a lot of crypts while they should have sold to buy other things, like a Lotus or S&P 500 stuff...
"My DeCk Is A fOuR wItH aNciEnT tOmB bUt A tWo WiThOuT iT. Is ThAt OkAy WiTh EvErYoNe?"
I have no problem with that kind of Rule 0 conversation, even if its said very awkwardly (Magic players can be very awkward people). Wizard typing it out is strange, but like sure if someone said that to me at the table I'd be fine with it and have the discussion.
I honestly don't see the issue with asking that question at a table. "I have Rhystic in here, is everyone okay with that?" is basically the same quiestion.
You're the first RUclipsr to acknowledge that people sending those threats aren't actually in the community. There's no point in talking to them, they have no empathy and not worth your breath.
I don't condone the harassment people did. i don't care that my one mana crypt lost value. But I AM glad this will lead to an actual cEDH member on the new wotc RC. I enjoy "casual" sometimes, but the RC openly didn't care about cEDH.
Tbh, it didn't seem like cEDH cared about cEDH. cEDH was never Wizards sanctioned, and could easily manage their own ban lists through tourney organizers. RC was never supposed to care about cEDH because it wasn't in their job description. cEDH chose to use the RC rules, just as lgs tables chose to or not to. The RC can't be expected to cater towards a format that was piggybacking of its rules. cEDH had to power to change just as much as the RC did.
One idea about tiers: I could see something like "A deck's tier is one lower than the highest-tier card in it, unless there are X or more cards of that tier in which case it will be that tier. Strong tutors count as the highest-tier other card in your deck." So a Vampiric Tutor in a deck full of high-tier cards would be considered another high-tier card, but if your deck is full of jank it's just another jank card.
Magic is, at its core, a game of synergies. That means that you can't just look at a deck list and determine how strong that deck is - you need to look at how those cards interact with one another, and how consistently you'll be able to get those interactions working, and that's basically impossible to do in an objective fashion. So if you want a system to determine power level, it needs to have fairly simple objective criteria, and I believe it's better if those criteria err on the side of caution (meaning it's better if they overrate a deck's power level). Asking your pod "This deck is technically tier 4 but that's because I have cards X, Y, and Z in it, and those are mainly there for the theme. Is it OK if I play it?" is a better outcome than having a deck that blindsides people.
What a joke. This format was invented by the players to be enjoyed by the players.
Why does anyone care about a "ban list" from any organization in a format that is played casually 99.9% of the time? This format was ruined as soon as it stopped being EDH and wizards started printing "commander" products. Hearing wizards sanctioning a tier system for EDH is completely laughable, look what this game has come to...
I still think we just need to have our own local bans and zero chats and make it work ourselves if we want it to work 😊
Push broken pricy staples. Put RC in position to step onto land mine of expensive bannings. RC quits from massive backlash Wotc takes over. Just as planned
and all of that could have been avoided if they didnt jump the gun and just banned Nadu and Dockside then STARTED the DISCUSSION about the other two so it wasnt out of nowhere surprise ...
if they were talking about considering ban for the fast mana rocks for a while then the backlash from measured (first ban lotus, wait a bit for results) bans down the line wouldnt be perceived as badly ... they totally botched this and it came out as the good old "when you sow wind you will reap the whirlwind"
Yeah, the more and more I think about this in totality, it seems like the last bans were the RC giving the FU to Wizards because they knew they were going to be giving up control. The threats after the ban, which is very wrong, just gave Wizards a scapegoat when they stepped down.
100% delusion. Do you think someone like Olivia would keep quiet about an FU to wizards?
@@Wyrm7774 TBH, while it is easy to understand why she didn't say a lot yet, we know she voted against some bans.
The only thing I got out of this is that Commander is an emotionally immature format. The financial loss and players defending unfun playpatterns are straples of powerlevel bannings in any TCG. They recieved a taste that other games and formats have already went through and the gut reaction was ti have a meltdown. This shitfit and the format's reputation of being "no interaction, sorcery speed only" further cements it (and it's also not mentioning that the change in power level scaling is the most confusing thing in the world for them).
So many players have only ever played Commander when it comes to trading card games that these people are probably genuinely being confronted by this for the first time.
It's an even worse look when the Commander community starts declaring that those people aren't with them. I guess the death threats came ex nihilo, guys.
In my playgroup we have often made the joke when somebody played an og dual: "Get him, he spent money on the game, Heresy" But all in good fun and not actually making their experience terrible by focusing them down
I'm sorry, that Tooth and Nail anecdote is an example of one of my biggest pet peeves when playing. I hate being sandbagged; if you can end the game, do so so we can shuffle up and get another in. I don't want to play X more turns that are just completely meaningless.
eh, depends on the situation.
Like if everyone is having a good time and their decks are all actively doing the thing then yeah, it's kind of disappointing if someone ends the game out of the blue but if a game is dragging on then everyone is happy to see that end.
Really depends on the players and the situation, there's no single answer to that.
@@Mischievous_Moth To each their own, but, to be honest, this is one of the reasons I've severely curtailed how much I play. I never want someone to sandbag and I'm not going to. I have decks at a bunch of different power levels, but I always try to play optimally and that's what I want from my opponents. I've been saying for years, my motto is build for fun, but play to win
It's nice to see someone who agrees with me in this aspect. I hate it when people get upset because they all want to sit there and make the biggest board state imaginable and have zero interaction from anyone. I feel it's disrespectful if I go easy on my opponents just so their deck can do more things. That's what I do when I am playing beginners that are learning the game, I don't want to treat veteran players like they don't know how to play the game, I'm going to play to win.
I saw a thread not that long ago asking for commander "hot takes" and my reply was "it's not up to the table to either let, or enable, your deck to do its thing"
This could be a good thing. For example, if rhystic study is put in bracket 4, and most of us never have to play against that card again. I'd consider that a massive win for commander
I really don’t like the change, but we’ll see what happens… I’m afraid for it as a constructed format in a community with strangers. With friends? We all understand pretty well what our decks can do, but at the local game shop? I don’t know…
I think this is a great thing for the game. Splitting commander up into different formats was needed and there was no other way for it to happen except for WotC to step in, so they have done it at last.
Hopefully there is new ban lists for the 4 tiers they are planning and that makes game play alot easier for everyone.
I only hope the people who made the RC step down, losed thousands of dollars.
ahem ... sorry to tell you but the prices are already returning to normal ...
@@Asghaad Nice, people are imbecile.
It is wild to me how fast the prices on the banned cards went back up to their pre-ban prices when it took so long for them to "bottom" out. I really hope Wizards keeps the bans on Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus JUST to stick it to the speculators.