Opening a capacitor-style lithium cell (don't try this)
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Doing the dangerous things so you don't have to. I recommend against opening lithium cells, as they have some undesirable chemicals inside and any residual charge can be unleashed suddenly as heat, vapour and flames.
This cell was removed from a new style of disposable stimulant inhaler that has clearly been re-engineered for machine assembly. As part of that streamlining they have removed a lot of the wiring by using a PCB with a lithium cell in a solderable capacitor style can. Note that it is still a lithium ion cell and not a supercapacitor.
Despite being marked as 360mAh, the cell tested at around 280mAh input charge over a few cycles. If that is the initial factory-supplied capacity then this brand (elf) has near halved the usable life of the unit from the original 500mAh cells. That could explain why the main competitor (crystal) is so popular, since it still uses a 500mAh cell.
As mentioned in the video, the cell was made safer for disassembly by fully discharging it to near zero volts. There's a common misconception that it's the lithium in these cells that makes them explode in flames when things go wrong. In reality it's the stored energy that is the biggest hazard. The small amount of lithium in these cells is diffused into the electrode materials.
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:- www.bigclive.c...
This also keeps the channel independent of RUclips's algorithm quirks, allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty.
#ElectronicsCreators
Now we need to see if the vent on top spews flames if overcharged.
The vent is for venting gasses when charging and discharging. The pressure when the things explode, is too much for the tiny vent holes. The whole battery swells, then the case bursts and a fireball ensues.
@@darrylkinslow5613yes, please!
i am becoming:the bigender thead
Yes! Fanny Flambeau mk. 2!
Please clive?? Overcharged lipo capacitor? I'm guessing this is the same exact tech as the pouch cells and not 18650s, I have not seen these in person in the USA yet
Reminds me of being a kid and smashing D Cells to get the "black chalk" out of the middle so that we could draw on things. Given that this was at least 50 years ago, I assume they were all C-Zn cells. None of us died. Well, I mean none have died because of that specifically ...
I once did that to get the replacement motor brushes out of them.
"What doesn't kill you-has made a tactical error."
That said, having sword fights with old fluorescent tubes was probably one of my stupider things done as a child. Well, that and putting peas of gelignite into a glass bottle and tossing them into a bonfire.
Still alive, though.
Aluminium electrode would presumably react better with acid or lye than copper would…
Sword fights with fluorescent bulbs...
@@ConstantlyDamaged
I like to bite open thermometers and drink the silver fluid
When Clive puts a ‘don’t DO this’ in the title - immediate click. Somehow the delicate soothing tones of Clive’s voice describing how he performs the ill-advised task makes my day much better! Very educational - done so we don’t have to. Thank you Clive
Clive has found fire hiding inside several types of battery which isn’t surprising. Personally I very much appreciate him showing us how to avoid letting it escape… unless we need some fire and don’t have a lighter…
It’s crazy how a battery that can power so many things is just a well rolled up piece of foil and copper!!! Amazing
With many decades worth of chemical engineering coated onto the foil 🤔
Yeah, a LOT of time and work went into those foils, coatings, separators and electrolyte. It is bizarre that it is now such a throw away thing.
Just make sure the corners don't get folded over; An expensive mistake for Chevrolet.
@@MrDuncland Samsung
I was fulling expecting a pouch-type cell in there...pleasantly surprised to see an actual rolled up type :)
Me also.
Yeah, that's more than I was expecting, especially considering the lower capacity compared to spec and earlier incarnations of these throw-away devices.
They seem to be barely sealed though?!
The stuff inside is the same as what's in the pouch style ones, just different packaging.
No matter if they're round or flat, they're all still using the "Jelly-Roll" construction.
As an inquisitive engineer I've opened all types of lithium cells, but have stopped for about a year now. Now Clive is doing more, I'm happy to sit back and watch him, I have retired my cake tin of surprises. Good post Clive, thank you and please take care 👍
Don’t stop now Mr. Wisckers…get back on that work bench
I'm off to short a fully charged cell to compensate for the lack of burning in this video.
Well somebody has to! haha
Make sure you upload it to RUclips tho with a kind of surprised kind of excited tone that's still not overly bothered kind of voice over.
I did it a while ago (proof of concept) could you please pick me up from the hospital. They say I'm going home now.
This new packaging makes sense, I wonder if a capacitor manufacturer wanted to break into the lithium battery market, considering the consumption rate for batteries on disposables must be through the roof.
That's what I was thinking, are they able to simply repurpose the equipment for making capacitors for making these cells? It's pretty much the same construction, just with different materials in the layers.
Disposable and lithium is something that should not be in the same sentence.
I saw these cells few years ago used in some micro rc cars.
I dont remember where i saw them, but it was in a video where a guy was repairing some micro rc model cars.
@@MiGujack3
Unless there's also a "not"?
@@cigmorfil4101 What do you mean? my mind is slipping it's clutch lately.
I haven't got the guts to do something like this, so I'm living vicariously from the safety of my computer. Very interesting to see!
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. Other than content, there isn't much reason to actually do this. Plus where would you even find a pie dish explosion containment device?
@nightraven6303 If anyone will have one, they will.
The FLUM brand ones I find most often here in San Francisco, CA are way generous with their battery capacity. They’re literally no bigger than the one in this video, but have a whopping 1000 mAh capacity, and I’ve tested and retested them to be pretty spot on. That’s great and all, but it kinda feels like and even more blatant slap to the face of people like us who can’t stand waste seeing these things carelessly discarded in the gutters all over the place. Now I have many more batteries than I have devices to power, but I’ll still pick up every one I see. SMH.
1,000 is not "whopping" when it comes to Lithium cells. You can buy 9,600Mah 18650 cells. That 1,000 Mah can't even charge a cellphone a quarter of the way. Half of it would be used to power the charging circuit and the rest would give you maybe 10% charge. But a cellphone battery is around 1,800 Mah.
@@darrylkinslow5613 well there are devices other than cell phones. some low power embedded computers can last for months off 1000 mah and having that in such a tiny package is very useful and usually not cheap
@thousandsunny make a power wall out of em... use charge protectors from old cell phone battery's the have died
I've been collecting the 1500mAh ones out of disposal vape here in the uk. I'm going to make a big powerbank
@@darrylkinslow5613 These capacitor style batteries are much smaller than 18650s. They're also generally put in disposable devices. Given that, it's pretty fair to call 1000mAh a whopping amount.
Also your numbers are way off. The max capacity for an 18650 is about 3600mAh. Anything that claims to be much larger is most likely fake.
As for charge circuitry using half the power of the battery if you tried to use it to charge a smartphone, that's also an overestimate. The switching regulator to boost the voltage from the battery to 5V (for USB) should be close to 90% efficient. Modern phones also use switching regulators to drop back down to the charging voltage, which should also be close to 90% efficient. The actual battery charging process is also very efficient with modern cells, so I'd expect maybe 25% losses or so.
EDIT: well, thinking a little more, if you're trying to do fast charging at higher currents it might be more inefficient and closer to 50% losses as you were saying. But 5V + 500mA should be pretty efficient.
I was waiting to see the sparkle of all the electrons falling out as you broke the charge barrier apart 😊
Things just keep getting smaller and smaller. Just a pity they are so disposable. Interesting dive inside 2x👍
Picking up vape rubbish on the street. Maybe good cause for regulation. Single use products banned unless with return refund.
@@teambridgebsc691And even the return refund is no guarantee the stuff won’t just end up in the trash anyway. :(
@@tookitogo Yes, but your conscience is clear!
I love videos where you say DON'T DO THIS, then immediately do it.
I am definitely opting for electronics engineering and big thanks goes to this guy
Thank you Clive for doing the scary stuff so that we don’t have to. I am liking the new capacitor style packaging albeit looks to be slightly less efficient space wise.
That's fascinating. It seems like basically nothing in there, yet it stores so much power.
The black powders coating the electrodes are particularly spicy!
One is boring old graphite. The other may be Lithium cobalt oxide.
The same could be said of a fart. It's just gas but can hold so much power 😅😅😅
@@deanosaur808 Especially the farts that make your sphincter feel like it's hot for minutes afterwards - sweet jeezus!
The Lithium battery tempted you from the last video didn't it. 😂👍💯
That's one way of demonstrating that this WAS in fact a cell, and not a capacitor as some of yesterday's commenters would have us believe. Never doubt the Clive!
Fun fact - the entirety of the new Hinkley Point C nuclear power station is constructed within a giant explosion containment pie dish!!
Sub-facts:
1.Fray Bentos were the first contractors on site.
2. The previously contained pie was used to feed the population of Burnham-on-sea for 3 months.
3. It took 3 years for the pie to cool to a suitable level before it could be served to previously mentioned population
4. The lid has been reserved and will be installed as the lid of the reactor pressure vessel - complete with original labelling.
5. Work is already under way for the Sizewell C pie.
If only Fukushima had had a pie tin.
@@bigclivedotcom wrapped in that seaweed paper they use on sushi, just doesn’t cut it!
You do a great service to us curious fools who no longer need to open up these things just to see whats inside.
It's funny how Cobalt is only a problem when it's used in EV batteries and not when most of it gets used to remove sulfur from diesel.
when i was little i had a couple of chemistry sets and both had cobalt chloride in them, doubt if 'health and safety' would allow it now, or even any chemistry sets at all !
There's no doubt there are exploitative practices at many rare mineral mining operations around the world. If nothing else, underpaying workers is rampant. The less we have to rely on such practices, the better. Very cool teardown of a battery though!
This is actually very interesting. This could be very usefull for some of my projects.
If they fit i could just use some of these Cells to replace Caps, cut the traces and not have to worry about how to mount it. It makes things sooo much easier.
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist taking it apart, Clive!
First time I came across one of these capacitor shape lithium cells was in an led dog collar a few years back , strange choice of cell packaging.
Interesting to see that unique looking battery disassembled, and again at some personal risk. I will say it was much less exciting than the very first lithium ion cell you opened up. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥😂
That's a bummer, wanted to see flames and mayhem... Stay safe!
Given the five minute time stamp I was actually expecting to see the Explosion Containment Dish to be used! Magic Smoke!
I';m also eagerly awaiting the forthcoming sodium-based cells. I thought at first it was wishful thinking, but as more data comes through it seems they're legit. So I seriously hope that the electrolyte isn't going to be something too dangerous or awful to manufacture.
I’m always short of Christmas party activities….thanks Clive. Oh, you forgot to explain how to safely dispose of the ‘massive pile of rubbish’.
Awwww, man, no sparking and flames like the other cell from a while back? 🔥🔥🔥
*That's* what we tuned in for! 💀💀💀
That was uneventful. I was half expecting some spontaneous burst into flames😁
I think you should try to do this with a fully charged one next time and see how far you get before it erupts.
It's for the ratings 😂🤣😊🤝🤝
I have found it very interesting how wee babies mining cobalt in the Congo has only become an issue since they started being used in EVs. When it was only used in phone/laptop batteries, or as a catalyst in oil refineries then that was fine!
Still, it's nice to see the likes of the Daily Mail found their moral voice on the subject.
It actually used to be a concern even before that, I remember this being debated way over one and a half decades ago when one could still get cellphones that could accept triple-A batteries (I had one from Alcatel). Even Tesla wasn't *existing* back then.
Another thing is that the demand for batteries for smart devices has been relatively constant over the last years, while the demand for EV batteries *exploded*, so the impact and scale of child labor has only gotten worse.
Great autopsy Clive, I was thinking the whole time that the cell may catch fire halfway through opening it up. Love your ECPD device, Explosion Containment Pie Dish. Priceless !
Disappointed not to see smoke and flames.....
But glad to see that you are still around to dismantle the next dubious battery type to cross your path.
Coming ready to be added to a PCB right from the factory is pretty awesome, in my book. (I would add a castelated edge, to make the battery easier to replace down the road.)
Is it wrong of me to have Mr. Photonicinduction's voice in my head going "I want flaaaaaaaaames!!!"?? :P
That's a well rolled up piece of fire!
Always nice to see your program.
It seems as if the broken lamp has a problem with the E27 fitting.
Greetings MiKa
Interesting to see what's inside as i were not sure if they had inserted the tiniest lipo cell into a cap body or something. Probably good to attach to pcb's as a sort of backup power of some type ..
Oh, interesting, I was expecting there to be fully enclosed cell then crimped into the capacitor casing, not for the capacitor casing to be the outermost seal. How does the capacitor container compare to traditional outermost layers in terms of impact and puncture resistance? That'd be a factor in deciding whether to reclaim these for some projects.
The metal shell should be more rugged than the plastic film normally used, but I'm not sure how well it will contain the electrolyte.
@@bigclivedotcom Hmm, good point. Is the electrolyte in a battery significantly different than the electrolyte in a capacitor?
@@oasntet I'm not sure about standard aluminum electrolytics (something water based I think?), but ultracapacitors use the same stuff (alkyl carbonates, etc. plus dissolved salt). Which is where they get the comparable voltage rating from. (You can make an ionic double layer capacitor yourself, with salt water; of course it only handles about a volt before electrolysis takes over. Alkyl carbonates are used in batteries to withstand the high reduction potential of lithium and friends.) Ultracapacitors are just using the migration of ions towards the surface, of a very high surface-area material (activated carbon). Batteries and hybrid capacitors use some amount of chemical reaction, whether that's ionic absorption (lithium in/out of cobalt oxides and graphite), or full redox reactions (like oxidizing pure lithium metal). The rubber seal maybe doesn't last as long as a laminated/tape seal, but it's certainly a well understood method. :)
@@bigclivedotcomhopefully not well enough to bang
From my experience after collecting many vape batteries, I find that the pouch batteries are more resistant to crushing. The cross at the top splits open with minimal crushing 😅
They are unlikely to get pierced inside the vapes. I've collected over 1000 disposables over the last 3 years, and found very few that that had burst open. Out of 30 of the new ones, around 30% had split at top 😅
Bear in mind that most I find lately are roadkill 😂
4:58 Looks like that time I dropped my film camera in the Grand Canyon 😂
"You didnt see Graphite in that cell......YOU DIDNT"
Thank you for taking on dangerous tasks like this, it’s very enlightening.
How much Lithium metal does it contain?
Honestly, my biggest issue with the whole thing is that they used the black bar to denote positive rather than negative. I have been thinking about it, and can’t see anything good or useful about switching the terminals just because it is not an actual capacitor.
some older (60s) electrolytic capacitors of that can type did mark the positive like in this cell, instead of the negative, but the bar also had + symbols,, the bar was sometimes red or even blue or green ,
I think the Black Bar was used to show the connection to the outer layer (eg case), so you can earth it to prevent capacitive coupling to the surroundings.
@@graemezimmer604 no, its usually 'negative', if also specified with a - ,not necessarily 'outer', and is not necessarily connected to case, it is almost always in axial capacitors, at least more recent ones, but not in radial types, the can is 'floating'
@@andygozzo72 No, look carefully at radial caps - one leg goes through a rubber insulator like normal, and the other leg is the whole can! But what they're talking about in retro caps is when they used to have wax paper outer casings - the can wasn't conductive, and it mattered which plate of the capacitor was the outer one to avoid capacitive coupling to signals in the circuit. That's a real thing!
@@gorak9000 none of the 'modern' radial caps i've come across have the negative directly connected to their can..both wires go through the rubber end and into the rolled up innards
I love the smell of open lithium cells. It's a very unique smell, but has a nice flavour when it hits the back of your nose and you feel it on your tongue. Wouldn't recommend breathing it in deeply, though! Strong stuff.
I was missing the explosion containment pie dish.
Those cells are so powerful and dangerous and suddenly, one guy shows up and says: "There's graphite on the ground!"
It's always pleasing to see the Explosion Containment Pie Dish - at least it wasn't actually needed in this instance. And there was no protection device in the cell so I hope that the manufacturers solder them well to the PCB without any intermittent shorts or solder whiskers.
no doubt soldered with lead free solder, so tin whiskers may cause an 'incident' in time, if it still had charge in it 😁
Wow! The things you do for us viewers !
When you said that you're going to do "further tests" on the cell , i at first thought that you intended to put the cell together again...🤪
Now that would have been something else😁 Tnx for a good show👏🏻
Glad youve got the nerve. I get scared handling my lithuims even with zero power in them
Discovered one of these in a rechargeable shaver a while back, its 500mAh in a 1450 package, it has one 6 pin chip on the board, was expecting it to be a DW01, it's similar size but marked 67c927, charging circuitry may be in the charging cable, I was intrigued.
The explosion containment pie dish. That's where Clive throws the Christmas pudding experiment, when things go horribly wrong.
Hm, I'm starting to think this is not a li-ion battery with a strange form factor but a "li-ion capacitor" or LIC. It's a relatively modern (2010-ish for commercial product) bit of a crossbreed between a lithium battery and a supercap, it should have higher charge/discharge speed than a battery (but lower than an actual cap that can dump everything in a snap) and higher capacity than a capacitor (but much lower than a battery).
ah yes it has low self-discharge, less than 5% per month. That's why it can make sense used as a battery, while caps are not suited for that
I thought the same thing at first but I actually think it is a lithium battery - LiCs have much smaller capacities than these things do, are generally measured in Farads rather than mAh, and operate at different nominal voltages
That classic sickly sweet smell that tells you "bad time incoming - prepare to act"
A smell i am all too familiar with
Don't let the magic smoke out Clive!
Woooah!! Just realised you hit 1M subs!! Congrats Clive!!!
fully discharged before opening it?
...COWARD! 🤣
Love your work, Clive.
It was more about getting to see what was inside without it going boom prematurely.
😂😂😂! Explosion containment pie dish? You are one entertainment I cant miss for a break to the can!
I'll change my shorts later😅
Thank you for taking it apart, so I don't have to.
Really pleasant voice btw. 👍🏻❤
"Do not try this..." Ok, you've got my interest now... :)
The woman in the kitchen shop gave me a very funny look, when I asked for an "Explosion Containment Pie Dish" 💥🔥🤣
After the towel, owning an explosion containment pie dish is a must for everyone.
1. the reason that the leads are connected near the end is probably how they get the capacitor battery hybrid or the first inch is usually faulty due to being crushed up in the middle.
2. the separator is i think what gets punctured and causes shorts and fires.
3. all rechargeable cells require break in (the first few cycles) to get full capacity.
4. lithium does react with the air and water and starts fires if you ever take a chunk of lithium metal and throw it in water it will burst into flames eventually though very dangerous and should only be done in controlled conditions.
2. All bets are off on the event of disassembly because the separator won't necessarily stay aligned, or the roll could fold/flop over unpredictably, or you could short the terminals by accident
3. As far as I'm aware this is actually for the battery management system to learn the battery capacity and charge profile of the specific cell. I could be wrong but I'm not aware of any beneficial chemical process in the cell itself, particularly for NMC, that makes break in necessary
4. Pure lithium metal does, but lithium cells don't contain a lump of pure lithium metal, and generally the entire thing that makes lithium batteries fully discharged is the lithium being in a stable, low energy chemical state, so even dumping a stripped open cell in water *should* be safe if it was fully discharged. Emphasis on *should*, don't go testing this because you never know if it actually was fully discharged.
I was waiting for a flash at some point. This was an interesting one that reminds me as a kid taking apart capacitors for the foil to shellac thin strips of the foil on glass windows for an alarm system.
Now I watch other people do those kinds of things.
How do they avoid shorting them during wave soldering?
I would guess it's soldered by hand.
If I run out of toilet paper I will remember this. Thank you!
It's been a long time since we've seen the Explosion Containment Pie Dish
When I was very young I would take apart and rassemble things like toy motors, bicycles, etc. out of curiosity. Clive still does 😁 so I don't have to.
Great stuff" I wonder if they are putting them in capacitor casings to circumvent regulations about chucking away traditional lithium cells?
A really neat strong package ... but ..... VERY easy to short out when desoldering or incorrect storage ... the pouch cells are more fragile but hard to short out by accident ..... DAVE™🛑
Sensible way to package them, construction is similar, plenty of electro cap can sizes available and easy to mount on PCBs and has built in overpressure protection.
Awww i wanted flames, gonna go sulk now. Thanks for this never seen this type before.
The newest "capacitor" style battery in Blue 1000 ecigs don't even have leads, the whole thing is clipped together,assuming easier for automated assembly, tho they state not rechargeable, now got bout 50 of them to find use for
The music of Mission Impossible in the background would so be in place. 😂
Was waiting for your workbench to catch on fire....... again:p
peer pressure videos are my fav
Now we want to see you put it back together!
Congrats! 1 Million Subs!!!
Other people take the gloves off when they are serious.
Clive *puts the gloves on* when he's serious.
"I've fully discharged the cell before doing this"
Awwww!
With the use of the casing of an electrolytic capacitor, the cell can build up some internal pressure without expanding. On the other side of things, when there is too much pressure, it explodes like an electrolytic capacitor when the diodes of the Wien bridge become shorted...
So, it looks to me more like a mini standard 18650 cell rather than a pouch type cell, maybe like a 10250?
Hey Clive would you be interested in taking apart a cell phone battery? Like that flat square type ones?
When bigclive puts the gloves on, we know he means business 😁
So do you wear rubber gloves so that the melted rubber sticks to your skin and you get really bad burns when it starts to burn? This is hardcore!
I first noticed this style of cell in a little palm sized rc car I got from Walmart, had to take apart to clean the gear case because hair got caught in the gears
One of the strips is aluminium? I thought it was lithium foil?
No. Just copper and aluminium. The solid lithium foils may be found in the non rechargeable cells.
So which parts can you put in the recycling, you know, for the circular economy?
Great idea for big Clive merch. Signed explosive containment pie dishes. Dual use for making pies too.
Erm sorry for asking but what is pear drops??
Ethyl acetate is responsible for the characteristic flavour of pear drops.
I thought these types of cells used garden gnomes for power. Huh, you learn something new everyday...
Saw this "capacitor" form factor in a cordless phone handset before
Curious about the training process to get those babies to mine lithium cobalt oxide.
Nice educational video as always.
Pity about the capacity.
Placing the cell in a cap tube would seem to provide a little more protection.
Thanks Clive
If it is a one time use battery, perhaps they expect you can drain it lower than you would a cell you want to get many recharges from. I wonder if that explains the difference in the wHrs. thanks for another fun video.
I wonder if it was dressed up as a cap to try and convince some governing body that its fine to throw them away and not have to dispose of the lithium properly.
Big Clive can you make a slug killer or repeller that runs on a battery
or explain how a copper strip stops slugs
I recently had the favor to see how fast two 18650 cells heat up when put into a holder wired as 2P and not recognizing the one cell is upside down. They have that flat plus cap and they had some plastic shrink wrapped around, which just shrinked even more fast. Fortunately I was fast enough in removing one from the very tight holder to avoid further effects.
Not sure if I prefer 50kWh if this over the 60l of diesel I normally use. 😂
Oh, it's perfectly safe. You just need the "do not insert cells backwards" warning label, and all is well. :-D