Super Capacitor Bike
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2024
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Next step : how to make a Tazer out that. It's... it's for a friend :)
may you do some wind up machines
You really need a motor controller configured as a constant current boost converter. Naturally any shelf controller does the opposite.
Li-ion supercapacitors will increase the capacity, so why not try it?
Three words,
Tesla
Tabless
Battery
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
Great idea!
Thats what they have been doing for years in e-cars and hybrids.
Also in starter packs.
You're too late to the party.
There is no point, sure the lithium battery takes 45 times as long to charge, but it holds 35 times the energy and is smaller. Using a lithium battery with the same volume as the capacitor it could likely handle higher charge and discharge powers.
@@danhunters8226 this is not the case. A capacitor can dump many times the power of a lithium cell in the same time period. If you look at rc drones or dragsters they have this hybrid battery-cap approach for massive acceleration currents. Sure for an ebike it may not make as much sense but that doesn't make it totally invalid
@@danhunters8226 where is your base for this? The commenter mentioned the capacitor for quick starting, then switching to the batteries for continuing acceleration. Finally, the regenerative braking will be used to charge the capacitor for the next acceleration. That way, you don't wear out the cells due to an unclean charge cycle.
As a single speed, with regenerative braking this would be absolutely brilliant for urban use. You really only need assist to get to speed. Energy could be dependent on mass, so this would be awesome for cargo bikes starting up.
flat urban areas
You mean a bafang
@@wesss9353 not quite. while some bafang have regen brakes, a super capacitor energy storage system would be great for the unique need to quickly store, then quickly release energy. Such as powerful regen brakes then being used to help you get back up to speed fast.
Maybe not urban areas with elevation change like Cork or San Francisco
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
The fact the bike chain tried to stick to the motor indicates there is magnetic flux that escapes the motor assembly. Optimise the magnetic flux path, and you'll get a significant increase in motor performance
sir i guess the attrection is due to force and, in case of magnets its governed by inverse square law, so think its not possible to prevent the chain from sticking, since it solely depends of the distance b/w magnet and chain,
@@oksowhat magnetic field can easily be redirected using ferromagnetic objects. Magnetic field is not gravity. That way all the field can be directed in desired direction, and get much more power out of the motor, all motors do this.
@@ritwikreddy5670 ohh, but magnetic force goes by inverse square law, in the above condition, the magnetic strength of both the elements are constant, only thing that chan be changed is distance, so if distance is less then both of the elements will stick, i am not talking about mag field but force,
@@oksowhat 😊while you are absolutely right with the inverse sq law , the point Ritwik makes is completely different and on point Dan made. Yes there is force acting also but since chains are ferromagnetic they are interacting more with the magnetic field lines towards magnets. Metals have different characteristics regards to how they interact with magnet and magnetic fields lines and their strengths are measured as fluxes some like iron attract more.
In an ideal motor any lose magnetic flux will mean the motor is less efficient and that is what Dan is saying.
@@oksowhat sure with the exact design above, the only thing that can be changed without adding or removing material is distance, in empty space the inverse square law is how magnetic fields work, but heres the thing, you can guide magnetic fields, by using magnetic face plates you can contain their saturation value of magnetic field from leaving the enclosure, Tech Ingredients has a channel demonstrating this effect called 'extreme magnets' skip to 15:25 or 20:30 in that video for a good example, waves a bunch of metal things mere inches away from *large* neodymium magnets, its not 100%, but when you're only getting a 40% efficiency, a boost of 5-10% efficiency is fairly noticeable
That regenerative braking idea is actually really cool! If you can gain roughly 40% of the energy used to cycle this system with an optimized battery-capacitor storage solution can be genuinely useful, an ebike you never have to charge, pedal when you can and use the electric power to when going up inclines or when you get tired.
You know pretty much all of the ebikes already have regenerative braking.
@@LarryJL Very few have regenerative braking. All the nice ones use mid drive motors instead of hub motors making regenerative braking impossible.
@@welfarewagonrepairs Well it's certainly not rare.
@@welfarewagonrepairs yes exactly, ones you would want to use dont have it
Regenerate brake is common in almost every electric vehicle, it's nothing new and he sure didn't come up with it himself.
I reckon you're definitely onto something with the regen potential, almost like a boost to an additional lithium pack. Love how well the ultra basic BLDC controller works! Would love to see a speed limit test on it with some big voltage behind it ;)
Of course it's a natural synergy to the technology, interestingly not much different in function as F1 KERs using a fly wheel to capture the potential and deliver instantaneously or if not trickle into batts.
Just a format that works with the energy form wanted capturing, then used within those constraints of supply and demand over time.
Batt packs with a supercap buffer or a separate cap bank with power routed via, would take care of any spikes or lags and as you mention most useful here the regen, Because with only a battery it couldnt store enough, quickly enough and wasting it.
This idea is just emerging in drones now because of the weight and dependence on batts and investment communally.
Maybe put a flywheel between the pedals? Tom play with these also. Super fusion. It could gear to take and generate fro caps from pedals and from back wheel capturing extra kinetic energy not typically taken.
You could add nitro boost to your electric bike for fast acceleratio ln
@@karmo0o178 totally could and it would help smooth draw and protect batteries all the time also.
He was dead on with the cap sizing! Tom used 11 kJ of capacitors, and an 80 kg mass at 30 mph/50 kph has ~8 kJ of kinetic energy. Note that he's pushing them pretty hard, though- these guys together are rated for 475 W continuous and 3888 W peak, so running them on a 4 kW motor from dead to full is pretty aggressive.
11 kJ is perfect- in practice, you want 30-60% extra since you have to get down to half voltage to get even 75% energy recovery. You can use a boost circuit as well but they're not very efficient. I'll note that li-ion is actually pretty amazing, though: with high performance cells like a 40T3 an 8 kg 1.5 kWh pack can push 20 kW peak, 14 kW continuous, and anything
@@harperwillis5447 great physics dude, I'm very low left brain. I don't know how I insinuated I was needing anything for a car, oh I meant the fly wheel in the KERs could be seen as a supercap in a way.
As as a physicist you must appreciate that from then an engineers stance and technologically, that we are merely converting from kinetic to em, unless already , and then back again.
My point is with the benefit of C with the supercap or whatever it then becomes with a cap if not C, when you lose that resistance a battery has to charge quickly and not a problem in a supercap,
you can capture much more from the engineering of the system at much smaller fractions, viable because they don't become offset by the heat loss using them.
So maybe this new found capabilities require new found approaches, I was just using alternate convenient reference.
Explains in detail why capacitors are bad for electric vehicles
"And that's why I'm going to make a supercapacitor electric bike"
Shame because the motor was ideal for use with a standard Lithium Battery. It would be nice to get some specs and maybe links to thget the magnets etc so we can try making one.
It might be safe to use capacitors for torque bursts and lithium for constant power
@@niiiiiix Yeah some electric go-karts use supercapacitors as the electric equivalent of NOS
To be fair, Bill Nye did the same thing building a to scale model of the solar system to demonstrate why people don't bother building them. It was cool but he literally needed a bike to go from the sun, a 3 meter balloon, all the way out to where pluto was, at the size of a golf ball, several kilometers away.
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
Differences in capacity and self-discharge rate means that your series capacitor bank is going to drift out of balance very quickly. This means that individual caps can be driven to reverse polarity during discharging and/or some caps will be overvolted during charging. You can get little balancer boards for these supercaps - definitely indicated in this application.
Or just put them in parallel, and use caps rated at a suitable voltage. Using caps in series seems an unusual choice anyway, caps aren't really made for that. He seems to be using them like they're batteries.
He didnt only test the capacitors, he also build a BLDC motor from scratch. This is insanely amazing!
Yeah, that was the most impressive part of the video. I almost forgot the purpose of the video is about powering the bike from super capacitors. The caps were underwhelming as I expected. But that MOTOR!! WOW! I wish I was that smart. I could form my own e-bike company (powered by Li batteries, of course, not caps 😊).
@@ChristmasEve777 Good news is, spend a bit of time tinkering with motors you build, you very quickly become very good at it. They really aren't that complicated, and the best way is to do hands on work. You can even use wood or plastic for holding stuff together till you get a design down. Then get the parts made for it.
I was making motors when I was a kid. And now, I could easily make something like this. However, the real issue comes down to precision. If you're building a motor where efficiency is needed. I would just buy a manufactured one. Everything needs to be an exact fit, smooth high quality bearings, no vibration.
It's actually great to see it almost fully recharging the capacitors when you go downhill.
This would be great for electric scooters if the energy storage amount was bigger.
Massive props for creating the electric motor from scratch.
SIR ENERGY "SALVAGE" from REGENERATIVE BRAKING WAS FOR YEARS ~15% .........GOING DOWN A MOUNTAIN (,CONTINENTAL DIVIDE / ROCKY MOUNTAINS ) NO POWER NEEDED , + CHARGING BATTERIES/ CAPACITORS ...
Yes, making that motor is impressive skill. But though, is not from scratch.
People got so used on buying things...
So, there was insulated copper wire, magnets, aluminum. aaand .... some advanced electronics. Assembling this into an motor is a skill few have, maybe less than 1 percent of population.
But, drop the guy on a deserted big island, and let him make the motor. I make the concession giving him the tools though. A shovel to dig the ore, a furnace to smelt the ore, a hammer... I stop here you got the idea.
Sorry if my comment full of negativism, but I got tired of this kind of videos, make your own solar panel, ... but I see how to assembly solar cells. Make your own battery, but I see how to assembly a bunch of batteries. Only once I saw a guy making a lead battery, but still so pitiful, that was not actually usable. Was just a proof of concept. We are so dependent on industry...
Left alone, few of us will be able to make basic things like a clay pot or a wood spoon.
@@ehombane So what? If you want to watch ore smelting go to a different video, this video would be hours longer with multiple different mechanical fields involved that it would lose focus and take forever if it would have been done your way. This is not a primitive technologies channel.
@@CheeseOfMasters It seems you did not got my message.
It is not about what I want to watch. It is about a statement not entirely true. I explained that I am tired of exaggerations. He could have said.. designed and built a motor, which is impressive enough. Leaving that .. from scratch, out, would not have ruined the message and the statement would have been true.
Sure in these days when lies and deceit are the norm, this little exaggeration may seem natural.
@@ehombane "from scratch" merely means "from the beginning"
Building a motor "from scratch" does not mean you cast the iron yourself. It simply states that you build the motor with the unassembled parts used to build a motor instead of using preassembled Groups. Beeing an engineer working on large scale logistics applications i can assure you that there is a vast difference between these two concepts in terms of money and time.
Its not him lying....Its you having a false grasp of what "from scratch" means in the eyes of a specialised worker
A steel plade on the opposite side of the rotor will increase the flux-density on the coil side, AND eliminate the magnetic attraction on the chain. Alternatively, place another set of coils on that side, also with a back-plate. Also, a boost controller will keep the motor voltage up even when the capacitor voltage drops.
I was thinking about using the boost controller as well, it's cheap and easy to implement
The motor torque is created by magnetic flux trying to find a path of minimum reluctance. This is what really happens when you align magnets NS NS (relatively straight wide magnetic path - min reluctance) vs NS SN (magnetic path pinched between magnets - max reluctance). The problem with your design is that most of the magnetic path is in the air around the motor, so reluctance changes are small - low torque. You can greatly reduce that fixed reluctance by "closing" the circuit by e.g. placing mild steel plates on each side of the motor in such way they touch the magnets and electromagnets. This will also reduce the magnetic flux leakage attracting (trying to find its way through) the chain. As someone mentioned eddy currents may cause power losses, especially at high rpms - avoid conductive materials in the magnetic path.
I.e., no aluminum rotor magnet mounts either!
@@muffin_simp good point, that's where the flux is changing the fastest, so losses could be an issue. I'd also add iron cores for the coils (currently plastic). One problem with these changes is the increase in the force pulling both halves together, this probably means the frame and bearings would need an upgrade as well.
@John Green, Thanks for writing all this. I've been thinking about making my own motors and was wondering about magnetic flux and electric currents.
Perhaps he could remove the chain and fashion a belt drivetrain
@@adamb724 that may be a good thing to do in any case. Guiding magnetic flux will help a lot but I would still expect one percent or so of the flux to leak.
hmmm, charge the capacitors with the bike
good idea!
3:13
Cool project Tom. "Supercap" in the title pretty much grabs me any time. Have you considered iron cores for the coil cores? This should magnetically saturate more efficiently. The rest of the rotor could stay aluminum, and just have coil cores be iron. You'd see a large increase in torque, though likely a moderate decrease in range.
Looking at the video, the motor runs quite fast, and soft iron cores are generally not super good for higher frequencies, though I'm not sure if you'll notice it in this case. It'd be interesting to test
@@willemschipper7736 Eddy currents are the bigger problem. At 240 rpm, for a 1.5 cm thick block of steel, you burn about 4 kw per kg of core. And that loss is just from the magnets passing by the steel at that speed- no more coasting. It's a very effective brake.
You also need a backing plate (or a second rotor on the other side) to complete the magnetic circuit- using cores is not enough. The point of the core is to lower the impedance. If you only replace 20% of the flux path with steel, it's like putting a wire 20% across a battery. You're still gonna have a very high resistance.
@@harperwillis5447 maybe a ferrite core?
Unfortunately I misread the title as “supercrap,” and was sorely disappointed when 5 minutes in no one is sharting.
@@youkofoxy ferrite =iron
You can avoid some of the problems with the permanent magnets sticking by using steel sheets and wires to focus the magnetic fields in a specific area and/or direction. There are videos about this on the channel Tech Ingredients.
And by the way, you can also add a dynamo hub on the front wheel to help recharge the batteries/capacitors.
I hope he does regenerative charging if would be really cool.
It's been a long time since I watched that video. Would a steel channel around the back side (chain side) of each magnet be ideal for focusing the magnetic field toward the stator? Would this affect its efficiency or power?
Iron cores would massively increase the motor torque due to reducing magnetic resistance.
Not sure, can iron cores significantly increase efficiency too?
Look for "3d-printed Halbach Motor - Building Instructions" by Christoph Laimer.
Tom could get more torque by putting coils on the other side of the rotor too, and not using aluminium as a rotor which will leach energy in the form of eddy currents.
There are many designs of ebike motors - Tom's is not one of them! It would be better used in a wind turbine!
ruclips.net/video/jXP6YwH6o1ku/видео.html4u4
Ah, I love these projects because they're... pretty good at explaining why supercapacitors don't really have an application in vehicles. The charge rate of a capacity may be high, but because they have such low capacity the actual volumetric and gravimetric power density is usually on par with or sometimes even worse than batteries. Also, batteries tend to charge fastest at relatively low charge, while supercaps charge at very low power from empty and only really reach their full potential around 2/3rds charge.
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
What's being produced at this time, yes, take up more space, usually with less weight. But in the future chemical batteries will loose.
Don’t forget that batteries hate charge cycling, while capacitors don’t. Using any sort of regenerative braking with just batteries will degrade them super fast, but charging supercapacitors whenever possible helps to take the edge off (and can supplement voltage for higher torque when accelerating)
In theory, you should set the motor in the first bike to serve as generator while regenerative braking. You can use this feature to charge the capacitors using your leg power, and store this power for uphill biking part of the way.
Given the weight of the super capacitors, I'm surprised you didn't just quadrupole the battery count. Maybe, for round 2, you could integrate the supercapacitors to the regen braking system and use Lithiums for drive.
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
@@bene6270 did you see how slow the start was? With that hand-built e-motor, literally has less than 2lbs of torque. probably less than 1.
@@bene6270 modern lithium ion batteries can be charged or discharged very rapidly, at more than 5c, for very short bursts, rendering capacitors useless.
@@harsimranbansal5355 yeah but super capacitors have more potential than lithium batteries in certain applications
thas what i was thinking it will ad weight but the lithium batteries cant charge that quick so it would maybe be good
Very cool project!
Just some thoughts on the DIY motor: Maybe align the magnets in a Halbach array and use iron cores in the coils. Should vastly improve efficiency and torque.
ruclips.net/video/jXP6YwH6o1k/видео.html
In General it seems like there would have been some better motor options.
Iron cores wont help when you dont have whole magnetic circuit
Hi
Man, you need back iron in both rotor and stator. Just adding this would make the motor 2-3 times more powerful.
Everyone building a DIY motor seems to forget this (including me 5 years ago!), but the fact that all commercial motors are a big lump of laminated iron should give you a clue that the iron actually improves the machine.
Additionally, if the motor is redesigned with a multiple of three windings, you may be able to drive it using a standard three-phase FOC-controller.
And, additionaly, the reduction ratio is not optimal. For better performance you may change the gear, or winding count, or change connection schematics from "triangle" to "star".
yup
Agreed, Every motor needs some kind of back iron so that the magnetic flux has an easy path to go through, just make sure to keep saturation of the iron into account in your design.
It will greatly benefit the power and efficiency of the motor like andrei mentioned.
I would put a plate of solid steel 1010, 1018 or 1020 over the magnets, and I would do a double rotor, magnets with back iron plates on both sides of the coils. In the stator I would put cores made of laminations from some salvaged old transformers. The magnetic flux will be much stronger and will provide a lot more torque. Inside the stator the core must be laminated because the flux field oscillates and produces eddy currents, and the laminations keep the eddy currents to minimum. In the rotor the yoke/ back iron can be solid because the field does not oscillates, it stays constant all the time due to the magnets.
I feel dumb af
About what part?
@@nednelp9051 The whole... 😢
Admitting you’re dumb is better than pretending you’re smart. The former leads to possible enlightenment while the latter is only voluntary ignorance.
Smarter than the 27 people that say first in every fucking comment section
Tip for the next time you wind coils: Do 5 or 10 revolutions before adding on the calculator. Speeds up the process by a lot because you don't have to switch after every revolution and pick up the wire again, and 5 is still easy to count (10 also with some practice) :)
Lol
why is it important to have exact number of revolutions btw? Does it matter if coils have +-2% difference?
@@dandin8189 yes, the magnetic field for that coil would also vary slightly in strength, and the coil would draw more or less amperage then others. This could also make a vibration or imbalance in the motor.
If you have the talent to build and code the controller, building a coil winding machine with turn counter would be easy. fit coils, with an iron backplate, on the opposite side of the rotor too.
I can count to 20 and im only 32 :)
Usually if i ride down a small hill, I can get around 40% of the way up the next hill just with the momentum gathered. If you trialed the bike on a series of small up and down hills whilst continuing with momentum i bet it would keep up a good pace, add in some strategic pedalling and it will be flying. Would be good to see a pump track version that automatically detects when to apply power/regenerate
Except to charge the bike as you go down the hill the capacitors are going to slow you down, in theory meaning you aren’t going to get 40% up the next hill anymore. The energy in the capacitor has to come from somewhere.
For a rough guestemation that seems about right on that 40%, or at least it aligns with his numbers. In your case you are just trading between potential and kinetic energy then back to potential energy. This is just due to simple physics laws and nothing too complex. If the two hills are identical in height, and you only make it 40% up the second hill, then you lost 60% of your total initial energy to friction (air resistance included which is probably the biggest factor). If you take and convert as much of your starting potential energy into electrical potential energy, then assuming no losses in the conversion to electric potential, you stand to recover again about 40% of the height back up the second hill with maybe a touch extra height as air resistance is equal to velocity squared. Though the conversion to electric potential is never 100% efficient so I would imagine whatever savings in energy you have by reducing downward speed (in the conversion of energy and thus velocity to electrical potential) you would lose in the conversion. For the weight spent, just having batteries would be a better storage of energy per kg.
An e-bike challenge would be interesting. Contestants get a certain size and capacity battery for assist on the course. It's up to the teams to determine the best place to use it and to come up with the best motor/gearing etc.
how about a gaslever like in motorbikes and mopeds? easy accelaration by a turn of the grip or thumbing a lever. no need for automation and electronics and you get direct input without changing anything else of how you normally ride your bike
Somebody get perpetual motion RUclips on the line, this guy's solved it!
@@chris12456 yeah, but it allows you to spread out the energy needed over time by recovering some of the extra you don't need when going down hill, making the climbs easier but the downhill harder
So you never explained: Why did you build your own axial motor for this project? Or was this really two separate projects you wanted to do, and just combined them in this video?
This ^
Sounds like you answered your question.
Yes.
now we have no idea if the capacitors are the issue or the stupid motor idea.
@@johnfunk4313 I mean he did hook it up to his specialized bike. But like he talked about capacitors have both very low spacific energy, and and the energy output drops as the square of it's discharge percentage.
I guess maybe that's why he started making that motor, because he needed something with a wide operating range including working at high current and low voltages. That's something he could have done with an off the shelf motor though, and custom speed controller firmware.
Maybe he'll do another video with this motor though and a proper custom speed controller. Those H-bridges he used are... less than ideal for this application.
Introducing some iron to direct the magnetic flux would drastically improve the power of this motor. An iron backing to the magnets on the out side and also opposite so that the coils are sandwiched in between would significantly increase the flux seen by the coils as well as improve its orientation. The iron would have to rotate with the magnets to avoid losses due to eddy currents. This arrangement would also shield the bicycle chain from effectively being a shorted coil as it is in the current arrangement.
10months late but maybe
Excellent insight dude
Jo Tom I have an Idea...
Super Caps are good for regenerative Breaking and short fast acceleration. Lithium-Ion Cells are good for low Amperage but long durations...
Im thinking a Hybrid Bike. Half electric and half electric. Use a few light supercaps for energy storage while breaking and release it while acceleration, and maintain the speed whith liIon Cells. You could make a Hybrid power supply witch changes sources. There are 4 Stages:
1. Accelerate until Caps are LOW
2.Switch to LiIon Cells and drive
3. Break regenerative into the LiIons
4. extinguish the Bike
maybe there can be an maintaining mode: If the bike has stopped and the caps are emty, charge them with your normal cells for fast energy deloivery.
ps: next time use 2 plates with magnets. One for each side of the spools.
sorry for my badf english, I love your Videos, keep the good work up.
I agree, and don't worry about your bad English, if I tried making this it would be a case of "extinguish the bike".
He can get a small fire extinguisher for a Moto race bike to mount on the frame.
But honestly why is there no electric bikes that can be charged by pedaling them? It just seems logical to me. Never having to plug the bike in
@@dav1dbone it's not free energy. The battery (or legs) gets the mass moving. How does (in the real world) that mass get slowed down? The conventional way is by friction which produces heat. That heat is normally wasted (again real world application ie brake pads). If that kinetic energy can be converted to electrical energy and then stored and used to propel the mass again, then that is recovering energy that would normally simply disappate as heat into the environment. Even if not 100% efficient, the normally wasted energy is reused.
You could make it regenerative such that when you are at smooth/slope roads with enough speed for you to lightly pedal, the capacitors would charge
And when you need torque, to start from zero, you could use that energy stored.
Wouldnt last you'd be peddling in minutes trick is to not stop peddling or generating power even when stoped mixed with solar
ruclips.net/video/jXP6YwH6o1k/видео.html
I feel like these would be good for pedal assist with regenerative breaking. You could have like half motor and half pedal. The fast charge rate could charge the same speed you pedal or regen break, this would give you some extra kik when pedaling while having infinite range. When they die, just pedal for
A minute.
I was very disappointed when he made it without regenerative braking as it seems like the only real world use for using the super capacitors. Was ecstatic when he swapped bikes and it worked. With some tweaking I could see it as viable and useful.
@Pedro why would he write it to the author? You know most RUclipsrs don't read their comments. Who has time to go through thousands of mostly dumb comments reading them thoughtfully?
The people watching the video are the most likely to to see and respond to a comment you make.
I wonder why you decided to make the stator of the motor as solid metal, as it induces a lot of eddy currents which causes alot of inefficiencies. Most motors use laminated electric steel with insulation in between them, to reduce this.
Edit: Tom used alluminium I didn’t realise. Alluminium isn’t ferromagnetic so it doesn’t affect the magnetic field. Using steel laminate however would’ve made the motor stronger
ordering steel sheets is much more expensive than machining aluminum plates I guess?
How is he to build that with a cnc machine? Guessing it was just more practical and sturdier than a 3d printed part that spins to avoid centrifugal forces from the magnets breaking it.
Cut the stator from couple of thin metal plates and glue them togeather but I think for the purpose of this video this was sufficient effort
I was thinking about aluminum being paramagnetic, wouldn't that effect the efficiency of the field generated?
@@CannaCJ it was aluminium? At that point you might as well just 3D print the stator because I’d assume the alluminium there isn’t really doing anything, it’s not structural it is the stator after all. I think Tom Could’ve saved some money and time not machining that part out of alluminium.
You just need to have a charging station every 50 meters :-) But having capacitors for rapid storage of braking power and lithium battery for long runs could be it.
Batteries can already take all the energy from regen braking, though - that isn’t a limitation
@@audigex yeah
@@audigex They can - with degradation. With supercap buffer, their life could be extended
Hi
I always show your videos to my dad and then we'll sit and have dinner while watching your videos. It's a tradition :)
That's what I'm thinking, the capacitors would be great for instantaneous charging/discharging while the lithium ion pack for range.
@@redsquirrelftw think you replied to the wrong comment fella
@@nickpierpoint4116 I apparently did lol. Meant to reply to one about using batteries in addition to caps. Not sure how that happened.
@@redsquirrelftw hahah
Hi
It might be worth swapping the chain for a timing belt. I imagine the magnetic flux between the chain and magnets creates a lot of resistance in he motor, especially at faster rpms
The fact that you just started right into the content is amazing, no five minute introduction. Subscribed.
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
@@bene6270 ok genius , now can you stop spamming or you want a trophy for a tech tgat tesla already uses
absolutely love the homemade motor, makes me wonder if with a little more time invested in it that you could make a better one say with like 10 times the coils and instead of having the magnets on a plate to have them laterally mounted in a tube structure.
You've learned so much about fabrication! Getting really professional. I really enjoyed the part about making all of the motor parts.
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
Really amazing, especially the fact that the regenerative braking on the orange bike recharges the capacitors. I wonder if this could be used to replicate a video game style speed boost. The power could be used to make pedaling easier for the rider, which would maybe make the rider feel like they are getting a speed boost while pedaling (enable them to reach higher speeds easier).
I feel like combining the rapid charge function of the capacitors with the high energy density of a battery may have serious potential, especially for regen braking. Imagine using the battery to drive the bike, and when coming to a stop, the capacitors recapture some of that energy and then use solely that energy to get going again, instead of the battery.
Aren't capacitors more efficient at storing energy than batteries? that's definitely be a good idea if that's the case. Maybe if you beefed it up a bit the higher discharge rate of the capacitors could mean a very powerful boost :D
Or much simpler to use a spring loaded startup by using a mechanical braking energy windup coil.
yeah just commented about this concept, regen 40% of the energy you put into an ebike that never has to charge, all it needs is an optimized battery-capacitor solution
@@sharan4700 simpler in design but not in operation.
@@sharan4700 Bingo! I've that idea for years. Mechanical regenerative breaking.
The regen of 40% is actually really good , I always thought super caps would be good for regen braking.
“I don’t know how much range I have, so I’m going to turn around.”
Yeah, you’d really hate to have to walk the 15 feet back.
In all seriousness, I love you’re outside the box thinking on projects like this. Keep it up!
Physical exertion is anathema for those whose brain is the predominant consumer of blood flow and oxygen over muscles 😎
You should add the iron (better laminated steel) inside the coils, instead of plastic. This will increase the efficiency much more of your motor and help magnetic flux return correctly. More further make the iron core of the rotor and make the shape of your coil core in Ш-shape.
Good luck!
As someone riding bicycles in city traffic a lot, I see great potential in a regenerative breaking/boosting system.
Triple the capacitor bank , use overcharge protection on the cap banks.
Use in combination with lithium batteries.
Program a controller so the caps are used when the bike goes from a standstill to a decent speed.
The Regenerative braking has priority in charging the caps first before charging the batteries.
You can use a relay to switch in the capacitor power when needed.
This was my thought, might be a bit harder to implement but could probably really improve regen, especially when hitting the brakes for short periods.
Relays are likely to weld at high currents, perhaps some sort of high power solid state switching?
For my capstone project we made supercapacitors by hand using more green materials. We were able to make 70 farad capacitors, and what we found was that in order to step up the voltage to power a 12v motor, wiring capacitors in series significantly lowers the total capacitance. Then the amount of weight on the motor then requires more amperage to be able to turn it (we powered an rc car). And it could barely move with the weight of the cap bank on it, but ran for a 1-2 mins when we lifted the bank off of the car.
I've been a bike mechanic for 47 years and all I can say is...Super cool! Also, would it make sense to combine batteries and capacitors into EV's, where the capacitors could handle the large accelerations (discharge) and decelerations (charge) and act a an energy buffer for the battery?
I think it's a good idea but would be somewhat hard to make it work without trouble.
@@theelectro15 with a properly coded controller and set of sensors to know when to implement the switching between each mode of power source / regen charging it shouldn't be all that difficult to work. And by using an app on your smartphone connected through bluetooth or usb to control the higher functions associated with the capacitors it wouldn't add extra failure modes and complexity to an existing off the shelf eBike controller that has a brake lever cut off function. The capacitors could be restricted to only being used to go from 0mph to 10mph speed. Which is where most amps are used on an eBike. A lot less power is used to keep the bike going once up to speed relative to getting the bike there. If the capacitors are charged only via braking and only used to accelerate the bike I wonder if they would be able to significantly increase the range over the regular regenerative braking power recovered?
@@publicdomain4890 cool, I would love to see it work
Exactly. I read years ago that supercapacitors can greatly extend the life of a battery by doing exactly what you just stated.
@@publicdomain4890 Are there start and run versions of supercapacitors?
“Eight legged starfish” sounds like a band from the 80s
And 'Cut the Rotor of the Motor' was their number one album!
ruclips.net/video/jXP6YwH6o1kj/видео.html4i4
Jefferson Starfish
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
If you want a near constant voltage out of super caps, you can start with a mostly parallel arrangement and switch to a progressively more series arrangement as the voltage drops.
8, 4, 2, 1, nothing nearly constant. Every switch a 100% jump.
BTW: changing the arrangement on the fly is not an easy task.
@@peterebel7899 Not necessarily when you deal with larger numbers or matrices, ie. 6x2, 4x3, 3x4, 2x6, 1x12. But you are right it takes a lot of circuitry to make it happen. And you may also have to deal with matching issues because it's hard to find caps that are equal in value.
@@AccessAccess Those jumps on both ends are 100%, in the middle it is not so bad.
But the whole thing is nonsense.
Far better to have a fixed array and cope with the variable voltage. This is by far less of a pain especially when you use fancy synchron motor drivers.
Or a buck/boost converter to keep the voltage relatively constant.
@@kimchristensen2175 Do the whole conversion from cell voltage to driving the motor's coils or whatever you intend to do in one step.
This reduces losses & components.
With a more efficient motor/generator, this could be really impresive in terms of regenerative braking.
This is what I was thinking. Much more efficient way to use going down one hill to get up another. Like a booster kinda thing
This is exactly why Lamborghini uses super capacitors for their "hybrid". Only, the electric part of that system accounts for 34 of the 774hp.
You explain everything so clearly I believe you would be an excellent teacher.
I've heard about a method to double the voltage at the expense of a faster discharge rate (to keep the total power constant). This would be a fun application to get more of that "full power till the end" despite using capacitors
Your engineering is truly impressive.
@GamingTroop mistakes will be made. Do you have any videos of stuff you built?
@GamingTroop
Let's see you do it, then
@GamingTroop I think he wired the caps in series so he has a lower energy for a longer range, otherwise he'd go really fast for a few seconds
@@josedorsaith5261 This is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen.
With logic like that, no one can point out any mistakes.
Did you get an over-salted dish at a restaurant? Either show me how you cook that dish, or shut up and eat it.
Are there illogical moments in the movie? Show me your scripts. You don't have any? Then shut up.
The man was smart not to respond to your nonsense.
@@Bagasl
Keep whining
Nice build, honestly! One thing: aluminum does have a magnetic response, it is due to Eddie currents. So, having the motor built using aluminum lowered its efficiency a little bit.
Yeah it induces a resistance just like dropping a piece of aluminum down a copper tube.
@@jamesa8851 I'm no scientist but I never heard someone mention that before.. Is there a name for that effect so I can search youtube for videos measuring it?
@@ChristopherJones16 Lenz's law: a changinge electric field can generate a magnetic field in a metal such that the generated field opposes the original field
@@zucc4764 cool thanks. I hope someone made a video on a test using a copper pipe and a piece of aluminum being dropped down it. That’s fascinating.
I misspoke about copper on aluminum. It’s a magnetic fields affect on copper or aluminum. Even though they’re non magnetic they will resist motion of a magnetic field because they’re conductive they become an opposing electromagnet in the moment an actual magnet is moving near them.
I think this quick Regen breaking would be amazing to eliminate the need for push start on some esk8. Also having a small independent battery for starting and breaking would be so nice
Supercaps have one advantage over lithium cell. They are more efficent in charging. So for regenerative breaking they are a bit better
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However you are at one sixth the capacity if they are in series, needs rewinding with smaller gauge and more turns appropriate laminate electromagnets and two gears
They also have a MUCH longer cycle life.
Wow, a lot of work for this experiment. Probably a bit pricey too. I just like the fact that you built the entire project. Congrats on that!
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
“The next step is to cut the rotor of the motor”. He rapping yall
This is truly awesome. I’d really like this sort of “hybrid” to help me a little bit when going uphill, without the need to charge from the outlet.
My favorite part is when he said, "...the rotor of the motor."
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
Thats what I was waiting for. A lot of stories at instagram and boom. Good job mate! Keep UP the good work.
ruclips.net/video/jXP6YwH6o1ku/видео.html4u
2:20 need to get yourself a guitar pickup winder ;-) it'll wind super fast and keep count for you
If you want to revisit building a bike motor, I would suggest 3 changes
1, use a halbach array for the magnets, this will make them more directional and increase the flux in the direction you want
2, add a second rotor to the other side of the coils, this will trap the flux between the two rotors where you want it
3, make the thing holding the coils out of something not ferromagnetic to reduce eddy current losses
Excellent motor build. A couple of improvements you can make. 1. Use ferrous cores in your coils to increase flux. 2. Stacked magnets are not nearly as strong as single magnets of the total dimensions, like about half...so find the right size magnets for the job without staking them. Was that a Teensy you used?
Love your videos Tom! The passion for motors, batteries, electronic control, transportation and experimentation is evident. Your determination is equally impressive, keep up the awesome work!
Capacitors for taking off quickly from the start, li-ion batteries for cruising, with regenerative braking recharging your capacitors specifically. Now that'd be neat!
OMG finally someone did this!!! I had this idea for years (so I loved your flywheel bike) but to invent a circuit that perfectly uses the energy in the Supercap is too much for me and I never started to build anything like that on my own
Here's a tip: if your capacitors reach the lower discharge limit (so your motor won't run anymore), switch pairs of capacitors in series, which doubles their individual voltage. Now you can use more of the stored energy. When the pairs also reach their limit, you may be able to switch groups of four capacitors in series, etc. All it takes is some clever wiring, and a few "gear change" switches. You can also switch everything electronically of course.
Oh snap! Well the recovery is definitely more efficient when directing the power to caps as apposed to the battery. I'd try figure out a way to use a dual system that works off both technologies. The caps would be used to regain power and then somehow supply that power to the battery...
I'd be interested in seeing how the full DIY bike does on charging with pedal power and reducing the output voltage from the capacitors to reduce load. Basically just enough power from the motor to overcome resistant forces and allowing you to pedal faster. What would it look like to charge, use the motor, while you pedal?
Exactly I was hoping he would try to implement charging by manpower
Your channel is pretty much the epitome of "quality over quantity". Love it.
11:40 Almost all subways has this system.
You can replace a Lead Acid battery in a car with a lightweight box containing a Lithium Ion battery, an array of Supercapacitors, and a management circuit.
Reduced weight, increased starter power, and longer accessory runtime, all in one package. The downside is that it won't do too well with cold.
Also complexity, lead acid batteries are very robust and dead simple
You really dont need the caps. There is high current lithium batteries that easially starts a car. While the crank amps is usually 500-800A.. when it cranked the first half round ot droppes to about 100.
Keep in mind lithium batteries degrade many times faster than lead acid. There is a reason why Lead acid batteries are common for automobiles
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@@aleksandersats9577 that really depends on what lithium chemestry you compare with. LTO and LFP have shelf life that are simular to that of a lead accid battery. The self discharge rate is also farily slow.
One problem with modern cars is that they draw current on standby. This kills a lead battery over time.
This is bloody cool!
It's less like an electric vehicle, and more an integrated assistance mechanism for recovery like in F1 vehicles. think on long journeys with a large enough capacity, it could help reduce the effort input from the rider having to push their effort as hard, recovered from their previous input energy. you could fine tune it to have a maximum output discharged to make how fast/or how much extra torque it would give you on each push of the pedal I reckon
NextVideoTM?
Idea: Have it set up so when you accellerate, it draws from the super capacitors, but when your cruising, it draws from Lithium-ion batteries.
This is how it has to be done. The heavy part, the starting to be done with the supercapacitor
It'd be interesting to see a updated version of this. In the last 3 years super caps have gotten very good. And there's some very efficient motors that you can get.
Very interesting video. Super caps are best to retrieve the energy from breaking or going down hills, then to use that power to partly recharge the batteries. I like using the 2600 farad caps myself. Go big or go home. 😁 You did a lot of hard work for this experiment. I wish I could give more than just 1 thumbs up. Thank you again for a great video.
Would be interesting to charge capacitors by generator on pedals
Great video! Your motor design is awesome. I hope you continue on this path and make your own motor controller and possibly increase the HP of your motor..
Would you talk about cutters/speeds/feeds you used to make your aluminum parts?
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The hill is a great place to do testing. Chalk the lowest point as middle, chalk a straight path line, and see how far the charged caps get you from the bottom of the hill up on both sides, mark them then compare that to how far you can go just by free wheeling, from and to those marked points.
If you use a boost regulator (easily bought online), you could keep the battery voltage constant for a large portion of the discharge. It has some losses, but not bad and should buy you some more energy out that is usable. Also, it seems like you should PWM the output drive, and make it low at first since there isn't much power needed to accelerate in the lower speed range. That would leave you more energy to reach a higher top speed. Even so, the best feature of the caps (as you stated) is to charge and discharge quickly, so focusing on it as a KERS and using the battery for the main range should work very well. The caps could also be put in line with the battery output briefly for a boost when already moving (assuming they were charged by the battery or downhill earlier). That would let you get a small and quick speed boost which you could recover the energy back again over time.
My dream was to create a hybrid car using "Super Capacitors" as you're cruising with little gas engine charging the capacitors and the engine throttles down when full then when you "punch it" it becomes a super car. You only need enough "Super Capacitors" to get you down a quarter of a mile. I feel with "Super Capacitors" with a gas engine a *generator" could be the ultimate drag car.
Damn! IS THIS THE TRUE POWER OF COMMON CORE PHYSICS?!?
1) Small, noisy, shakey gas motor
2) To power a generator
3) Which charges batteries
4) Which also charges supercaps
5) Where the power is connected to electric wheel motors
6) Which power the car
7) So I can live my life 1/4 mile at a time
OR
1) Pick any GM V8, like an LS3, of 450-500 cubic inches
2) Put a TH700 transmission on it
3) Stick it into chassis of your choice
4) Enjoy reliable 600-800 HP delivered smoothly all day
Seems like old tech is about 50% more efficient.
@@alphaforce6998 You clearly have not seen how a unmodified Tesla Plaid smokes 99.99% of ICE cars in a drag race, and it can do it over and over at the equivalent of close to 95 mpg.
Just have a lithum battery pack feeding the capacitors for the speed run, and have the car switch back to running directly off the lithium after the ¼ mile.
@@macrumpton I doubt it. You're watching videos that feed into what you want to believe. The fastest electric drag cars will not touch the fastest combustion drag cars, such as those powered by nitromethane. And no, it's not getting 95 mpg because electric cars run on coal. So how many tons of coal had to burn to charge your toy?
My god, you have superpowers with all the things you can do with machining and coding/chips/things I don't understand at all
And you not only built the bike but documented and told the story of it expertly. Hats off, this vid was great
It'd be cool to add generators to the wheels to charge the capacitors and it'll give you a boost button when you need it!
Although making your own motor makes interesting content also, i start to wonder how much better the bike would be running on supercaps with the most energy efficient electric bike motor.
Use a gas powered motor to charge the li-ion batteries, use these batteries to charge the capasitors, use these capasitors to generate HHO, use the HHO to power the generator.
100% efficient at wasting energy :)
hahaha😆😆😆🤌👏👏👏
Tf
Amazing work!!!!!... and love 6:40 "helmet", made me laugh.. Awesome video.
This may not work to run the bicycle by itself, but (as you showed at the end) works great using it like the KERS system on F1 cars.
Impressive how much energy you recovered down the hill. So how much could you recharge through actually pedalling while going downhill? If it was enough to get you up the next hill, then you're really onto something.
With this setup, nothing... the capacitors reached full charge before the end of the descent, as you can see on the graph
The more speed you generate the more losses due to aerodynamics you have.
@@peterebel7899 I think the idea was to feed the pedal power directly into the batteries without speeding up the descent.
41% round trip efficiency is very impressive!
hell yeah, this is gonna be a good one boys
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Great project, a small tip: instead building a hall sensor around your motor, you can use Zero Crossing effect of the free coil in each cycle of your motor.
Very very nice video, as always! Love your projects
9:40
Tom :I've built my bike fully from scratch
Also Tom: *uses a pre-made bike*
E-bikes: cool but retarded.
@@scottmerrow1488 What? Why? They get an incredible amount of use by people who have no reason to look cool.
Regenerative brakes on this project would be awesome
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Handy tip, if someone already hasn't said, use a little baggie with the epoxy. You can twist off above it, mush it around to mix then cut the tip to dispence.
Laminated iron cores for the coils, same for the backing plate. Put caps in parallel with the battery.
Oh boy, bet this is going to be good, Tom your videos are always brill:-)
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I think you've demonstrated that this project could be useful to compliment an electric bike system, as a separate regen device. I like your diy motor, and you've proved that it is adequate to charge the supercaps on a decent downhill stretch, I'd be "inclined" to use a regular hub motor though for drive- if anything even just as a test to see how it performs. Looking forward to your next upload.
Seems like a false choice to me.
This should be used in tandem with an e-bike, as a boost mode.
🗿
Thank you Tom for being so curious. Very interesting topic. Energy recovery for bicycles is desirable. I want it.
Love your vids Tom. Always interesting. I would love to see what you could come up with to do with hydraulics
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A capacitor ebike could actually be a viable solution. Capacitors are much lighter than batteries. If you could gradually use mild regen to charge enough for just 5 minutes of range it could get you up tough hills and accelerate for standing stops in traffic. You’d get some ebike advantages without ever having to worry about recharging.
When designing a new rotor, use the free space between magnets to make a hallback array
Hi