A lot of people think porting most games for linux is eazy as click on export to linux on unity or unreal. The problem with this side of argument is that its not that eazy to port and company will prefer not caring about linux at all. Most of the time devs are using os specific libraries to get more performance and thats why i think proton will only do good to linux gaming, even if devs don't care, in the end we're getting the games.
Eventually they'll care, thanks to the Steam deck if it's a success. It'll push them to make their Windows games perform well in Proton. So in the end we win.
This is definitely true to some extent. But then again, look at Stadia - Their service is running on Linux. Bethesda, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Sega - you name it - all have their games running on Linux. They're willing to put in the effort when its in their favour.
@@hotrodjones74 Alternatively, there'll be a series of less than perfect ports and when people complain the publishers will blame Linux and recommend people install Windows.
@@ugh.idontwanna They are when there's a big market. Also Stadia has a very specific distro and set of libraries to target, so it's quite a different beast than porting to generic Linux desktop distros with different varieties, DE, drivers and so on 😕
@@ugh.idontwanna while true, the problem with Stadia is that the act of making a Stadia version means releasing a cloud-based version, so while the work needed to support a desktop Linux version was undertaken to make the Stadia version, it doesn't push devs/publishers to budge and release the build for Desktop. The logic and set of practice within the larger game industry makes that the case, where as those who traditionally port well (Ryan C. Gordon, Ethan) understand how building for other platforms can be done in a portable fashion that leads into multiple releases.
I tried to game through WSL2! Its terrible xD If you are asking why: SimCity 4 Deluxe wont run natively on Windows but it runs without problems through Proton so i tried to do that but it was awfull.
@@cnr_0778 Meanwhile I tried to compare running a 2008 Windows-only game on Windows 10 and Manjaro through Steam Proton Guess which one worked without any hassle
This discussion is the ideal showcase of why idealism is dumb: You will be villainizing the best you can get not because it is not doing what you wanted but because it’s not doing it the way you wanted it to do it. In my book Proton has no drawback for desktop Linux Gamers… other than growing their library (also don’t kid yourself 95% would have NEVER got a native port, macOS market share is bigger and still does not justify a native port for many studios)
@@hotrodjones74 that would be very cool yea. After all it’s about choice, if all your tools are ok macOS it’s the best operating system for you same as for Windows and Linux.
@@hotrodjones74 That would be cool because it would really make PC gaming just one thing and not Mac gaming, Linux gaming and Windows gaming (and BSD gaming?). It would be really cool if Proton would just turn into an "API" that game devs could support to make games that work on any computer out there.
Game devs by and large are unfamiliar with Linux and can't be bothered to make a good port, and support that port indefinitely. The Proton route meanwhile is a great compromise we can propose for these devs: Don't bother making a bad port, but do a few little tweaks to ensure platinum compatibility.
Slight correction: Proton is developed by CodeWeavers, the team behind WINE. Valve hired them to fork a gaming-specific version of WINE that comes prepackaged with essential libraries for running within Steam’s ecosystem, but Valve didn’t create and doesn’t develop Proton by itself.
@@xolagix depending on what game you're installing with lutris, there are still hoops you need to jump through that are a turn off for the average person. E.g. installing libraries, adding repos, etc.
I'm against native Linux games at this point as long as games are designed to be ran on Windows AND Proton since the performance especially on optimized titles using OpenGL / Vulkan is often better or even much better than the performance on Windows. But on applications? No if the dev only provides a Windows version and i couldn't avoid using it i would use Proton to run it but using Proton as a substitute for native Linux apps is wrong in my opinion.
Developing with Proton as a target would also just be a good development practice, not relying on system quirks such as in the case of different Java implementations for example.
@@dafnelately And what is really exciting to me is that you can port Proton to FreeBSD for example and expect it to just work like an API! That's so unbelievably cool.
@@okay4634 "Isn’t it like saying port x to Ubuntu instead of GNU/Linux well or Linux as most call it. " Nope, because Ubuntu is a Linux distribution, FreeBSD is not.
Many games work better under proton than they do natively (at least from my limited sample size). I recall that native rocket league was absolute garbage, while the proton version was just like in windows. A more recent example would be a game I ran about a week ago called "Golf with friends" on its free weekend. The native version ran like crap on its default settings. It took a while to load, and when I set the graphics settings to high, it was unplayable. The proton version on the other hand ran flawlessly on the max settings. I'd rather have the developers put in work to make the game run really well under proton, than make a native version that runs like shit.
Native Rocket league generally ran for me almost 40 FPS more linux natively than playing it ON windows. but the Proton version of the game, still runs the game better than it does on windows so idk haha
people yelling for native versions have probably never played on linux: I've been on linux for years and even tho I love Feral and their work, the ports are atrocious compared to just running the same game via proton. Proton will be kept updated and improved, those ports are "frozen" and they seldomly get updates. Most linux-native ports are either gimped (missing features) or is not updated with newer tech (older OpenGL implementations over newer Vulkan renderers) EDIT: Also, if the game is not using Steam's runtime, you'll most likely have issues with missing or mismatched libraries
If developers keep on developing for Windows and use proton as an easy fix they NEVER learn to optimize games on Linux. So in the long run those developers shoot them selfs in the foot by not going for Linux Native design. Also most native games run better then via Proton, for example Dota2 and CS:GO are both native and run as good or better on Linux then on Windows so it depends on the games and on how much effort developers put in the ports.
Something that also happens on Windows and nobody complaints about it. And to be honest, companies don't care about backwards compatibility, just look at the re-releases of old games like GTA San Andreas, they are not even interested in improving the port and adapting it to current hardware and current Winodows versions, and fans must fix what the developers should be doing. They just want easy money.
@@tjaytje shore you got the point but Linux is to hardware dependent and there are tons of configurations to be keept uptodate , it not about to learn , it is how much market share exist , most fames are closed source , if Linux would become similar to what android did the there would be allso devs , in order to have great aops you need 3 things 1 HAL,2 Great framework, 3 great API, see it can be done if there are interest
As long as it makes Linux more usable (no need to dual boot) it's good news. Porting is hard, specially if well optimized, plus we have to accept that the Linux market is still miniscule. I'm more excited about the apps tho, hope they find a way to make them work.
Fully agree with what you've stated in the video. I even have old version of SketchUp (the last one with really free license), that has problems to run correctly on windows, but has no problem to run in wine, including old plugins :) So yeah, it's not black and white. I do believe with more options come more users.
- First we need games running on linux at any cost - Then gamers will move over to linux (they are price sensitive, why pay for windows if linux works) - At that point developers have more reasons to optimize more for Linux than windows and the overhead of proton will be left behind some day I hope it happens like this
Even if there aren't "native" Linux games anymore if proton keeps improving and more people use it the development of proton will be improved and maybe game companies will help improve proton as well or at least start testing and reporting issues in proton with their games so valve AND the community can work on fixing those.
The DLSS and FSR thing is so true. I watched videos comparing the different modes vs native, and even when zoomed in it's basically the "Corporate needs you to find the difference between these pictures" meme to me.
Given the big excitement for the Steam Deck, I'm hoping the Deck will increase mainstream interest in Linux on the desktop, especially if Proton continues to improve.
Native is preferable because Microsoft will likely try to stop Proton from making them irrelevant. I’m not a programmer but couldn’t they implement some OS feature/requirement that Proton wouldn’t be able to replicate?
We as a Linux community are still a small fish in the pond. If proton works as good as a native port, by all means let devopers just use that. Less work on their part, more apps and support for us. And more people could start using Linux as a daily driver, meaning more attention and support for us. And of course more people getting into FOSS and all it's benefits. Win-win if you ask me.
It does matter... in the long run. I'm absolutely happy proton exists, but it probably takes Valve a LOT of resources to keep maintaining it, they probably do it because they wanted to launch the steam deck and the real question is: Will Valve keep maintaining it if the steam deck fails ? My biggest fear with the reliance on proton is Valve dropping its support because it doesn't meet the return on investment expected and even if the community is skilled: you can't really compete with Valve's funding. In the end what can happen is proton falling behind and gaming on linux crashing. It's a great tool, but depending so much on a corporation is scary. For the time being: Proton is great. Let's just hope it doesn't follow a pattern way too common in FOSS: maintainer losing interest and app not running on future version of your distro.
For that to happen, first linux on the desktop have to grow a big enough marketshare for devs to even think about it. 1%of steam gamers pretty much nothing, even if they would be a highly well payin group, but over time, as this marketshare grows, more and more devs will "convert", move their asses over too, or new ones grew out of the new users, and it will start to happen more often. But still, for that to happen, more people have to use it at home, at work, at everywhere to have a significant userbase. The question of how long valve will support and develop proton, is a good one, but again, only on the long run. For nwo, to the next two years valve need it to make the Deck succesfull.
It's honestly amazing how quickly they managed to get proton working for most games. There's a few outliers that keep me from switching to Linux full time like Sea of Thieves and Titanfall 2. But it's mostly because Origin and Xbox Live aren't exactly going to work easily out of the box. If valve thinks they can get those working + anti-cheat support, then I'm excited
@@gragogflying-anvil3605 i just hope that proton gets adopted by pretty much every developer. Valve has done most of the work for them to port to an extra platform
@@PanosPitsi eh, its mostly friends why i still play thieves, and after getting used to titanfall's movement mechanics it makes you feel so sluggish in other games. I hope respawn or somebody else is working on a successor for TF|2
@@TheLinuxEXP moreover you are free from Windows overheads that is caused by spyware and data collection, telemetry, and ads stuff; so it balances out pretty well.
@@dorukhan8707 Yeah,everytime i'm using the VM Windows is always doing something in the background consuming cpu and lagging my games on there, and when I shutdown the VM and an windows update appears,I'm just like "Nope" and force shutdown the vm,don't care if it break or not I can just restore a snapshot lol.
@@SuperVista64 yeah, whenever I boot up my windows vm to play my 1 anticheat protected game, I feel so much sorrow for people who use windows on a daily basis as it's so much slower than my linux host, not to mention, I've noticed the CPU was having high usage after starting up and I literally counted for like 10-20 minutes until it dropped down to proper idle CPU usage (had task manager open)
5:54 The thing with Rocket League is a really bad example imo because they dropped support for Linux after getting bought by Epic and the reason is the EG store only officially supports windows and they’re not selling the game on Steam anymore
We won't get locked to Steam, it is good to have a friend with as much influence as them, and if they step out of line the can get forked. Also, on the performance stuff and not having Native ports, would be grand if people from valve and wine and dxvk etc., they could help major engine makers with a higher understanding of what they do in DirectX that is more or less expensive to translate to Vulkan in Linux, then they can keep making windows games but the performance would increase in proton.
Call me tinfoiled. Proton is a big boon to linux as a whole right now no doubt about that and it will bring more people over (as it did for me as well). Thing is what i'm afraid of that this dependency on that translation layer which basically in return depends on how windows api calls work and will work. If the marketshare rises quickly enough, it might work out in the end, but there is the potential that with windows 11/windows 12/whatever, microsoft might decide to completely rewrite their APIs and functions, which would cause games created specifically for that newer standard to end up borked with a a lot of work needed to be done on the side of the WINE team. While this situation seems unlikely, i agree on that, since microsoft has always been big trying for backwards compatibility, this is still a danger that in my eyes shouldn't be disregarded.
Do you remember Vista. That was that, originally when it was Longhorn. They were trying, but at the end they ended up shipping something, what have changed, but not that much as they wanted originally.And yet, people were still pissed of with vista (tried its beta, i actually liked it, but when i actually made the swithc from xp it was almost already win7 time, so my femily and i ended up spending no time on vista afterall. Then there was win8. I liked it (probably same reason why i like GNOME), yet most people hated it while ms tried to change things again, so ms ended up walking backwards on what they ahve did, and give the people what peopel wanted, same oldschool os they were using already for decades. thats an another ig hurdle for linux to overcome. To change the way people thingk and interact with their pcs on windows, the linux wasy are.. completely different. And for some it will be a hard bite. (Till i didnt realized it, it was actually angering me, why things were different, why i couldnt do things the same way like on windows.. uhh, boy, the first few months were somewhat hard as i was slowly loosing the windows habits.)
I look forward to having all my games and controllers, especially steering wheels, working in Linux, whether native or via Proton. Then I can finally dump Windows forever. I hate having to boot into Windows to play a game, especially now that I've upgraded my PC and now my Windows is deactivated 😕
@@cnr_0778 idk honestly, a generic one. It runs perfect on Windows using x360ce, do you know about some way to make it work in linux? It would be really cool c: Edit: i mean make the joystick work, not x360ce
I watched few videos with comparisons between Windows, Linux native, Linux/Proton, Linux/Proton/DXVK performance In games and Linux with with Proton + DXVK was second only to Windows. Outperformed even native Linux games, for some reason. Still far from perfect, but close to good. Nice channel by the way.
After my gaming rig died, I got a new, fairly basic gaming pc. Dumped windows and am now a "Linux gamer". Would love to see other store fronts officially support Linux but gotta say I was pleased with how simple and easy it was to install Origin and the sims 4 through Lutris.
Although there is one problem you didn’t cover. Drivers. I have an Elgato HD60S and it had no driver support for linux… and the community project is dead, last i checked. It’s probably the main thing holding me back from switching completely
I know it isn't ideal, but can't you sell this model and buy one with native Linux support? And have you tried changing your kernel version? Maybe you can get lucky with older kernel versions that might have the driver you need.
Getting Linux and Windows gaming on essentially the same platform is a huge boost. As mentioned, Linux has a minimal market share, which means minimal effort goes in. But if the same client can be used on both, we benefit, especially if Microsoft makes breaking changes to their OS, because I doubt Proton will follow suit.
About other stores, I play WatchDogs 2 on uPlay through proton, using Lutris. It works pretty well and only multiplayer is broken due to anticheats. In the same way, I have the Epic Launcher 😊
If we give devs proton and let them develop with it then they might start using linux for proton development and after windows fully looses the gaming market share then maybe they will start making games with linux in mind
linux = 2.38% unknown = 8.04% unknown + linux = 10.42% so linux percentage could be anywhere between 2% and 11% of the market , since we don't know what the 'unkown' is and linux is very well known for not being very well track-able.
Thanks for explaining what proton actually is. Everyone discuss proton but I could never work out how it actually worked so I appreciate your intro to it.
Since a few years of using win10 and it breaking constantly on updates requiring me to wipe clean install basicly each year. (i used win7 and winvista without inssues for years never had to clean install them).One of the reasons iam not dual booting is afraid windows will do something even crazier :(. Hoping for anti cheat fixes to swap.
My Windows install does not want to get updated. It always end with BSoDs after a short time on newer versions than 1803. Glad I've made some full disk backups. My Ubuntu disk in the same PC however has no problems. Dual booting should be fine when windows has its own disk. It looks to overwrite the bootloader with its own, which doesn't matter when it has its own disk. Works fine for me für little over a year now.
Yes, Windows 7 was last best windows version, which is why Microsoft had to make it not viable for use, mainly... It doesn't support uefi natively (which makes it hard to use windows 7 with gpio/GPU passthrough), and to get the gamers moving to 10 they had 7 not support DirectX 12 (and probably push devs to always use the latest versions of their products) and make it EOL
One very important next step for Wine/Proton is native support for Wayland, (currently in development by Collabora) and with that, get all the benefits that Wayland windows get + lower input latency by not requiring XWayland. If we do need to compare native and Wine/Proton performance, then the latter usually has less frame stability overall. Shadow of the tomb raider for example is super stable and wouldn't necessarily need adaptive sync, even getting higher frame rates than on Windows with the same settings. Wine/Proton can have very noticable frame drops so now and then while playing AAA games.
I have an issue with xorg on my system when something will randomly freeze if its in fullscreen so I installed gnome Wayland and it works like a charm for everything Including proton games (I assume running through xwayland)
@@spagettech Wayland has the idea that every frame has to be perfect. This makes the overall Wayland experience extremely nice, however for gaming this can become a challenge as the compositor + forced vsync can introduce a lot of extra input latency. And that's without XWayland as extra layer on top of it. To enable a good gaming experience on Wayland there is something called direct scanout (added to Sway and KDE) which bypasses the compositor and avoids extra buffering which reduces latency. The forced vsync can however be a problem, which could be resolved by adding an option for asynchronous page flipping as an option for fullscreen windows. This would introduce tearing but Sway and KDE also support adaptive sync (freesync/gsync) to make sure you wouldn't see that.
for me an another bigger issue were game capture on wayland when the games were running on vulkan (as most proton game will run on DXVK or VKD3D, thus on vulkan), thenkfully its been solved now, obs got a plugin not long ago, and it works like a charm (ofc, i was fucking blind, and for a week i couldnt figure otu why it wasnt working.. i had to run OBs with the right env variable to enable it.. YEAH. RTFM :D). obs-vkcapture the name of it.
Proton is often better than some ports because the ports are not very good. Some "native" versions are only the Windows version bundled with some ancient version if Wine. Hollow Knight is one of the good ports from my experience.
i am currently using WINE to run windows specific application on Linux and frankly for basic application I find it run more smoother and faster on Linux on my old desktop as compared to use those application on windows 10
Native ports aren't really about performance IMO. It's about stability and the ability to mod games easily. That's my concern. I think Proton should always be a thing, because people should be able to _choose_ what how they want the game to be played. However Valve shouldn't hold all the cards as that means if anything happens to Valve, we're fucked. We should put the application as close to the hardware as possible. Additional programs will cause additional issues. Especially when it comes to game launchers with DLC
I really think a well-made Native Linux game is really better than a Proton Game. Proton might be slightly worse from performance than a game running natively on windows but a proton game will be lacking a lot in terms of performance to a well made linux native Vulkan Game. I think Proton is amazing for letting us get more applications and people but our end goal should probably be to aim for good Linux games as they offer greater performance and integrate better in the system and don’t take up as much storage and have a lot of advantages I do think Proton is Amazing tho and I really appreciate everyone working on it
Another video game example: Overcooked 2 in native and Proton. Native worked perfectly, but quits suddenly whenever my controller gets disconnected from my PC. And native doesn't have online multiplayer/crossplay. Proton worked perfectly too. But it didn't quit suddenly when a controller disconnects. And it has crossplay support. Hosted all my friends for online play, when their own Windows games couldn't host everyone for some reason. I love having a native Linux port, but you'll still feel that features aren't always as up-to-date. I don't mind having a Proton-compatible game, esp if the game is mostly compatible.
Great discussion. I use proton everyday. It runs Battlefield 5 on ubuntu GREAT. The big issue is that NO ONE is paying a Windows Tax to play a AAA Game anymore.
Yeah, it doesn't matter cuz hardly any company cares to make a native linux game Anyways, we are literally playing games via proton and wine so we shouldn't be bothered when steam is promoting PROPER proton ports which is tested by the companies to run the games without issues. Also I really want anti cheat support for linux out this whole situation so I can play genshin impact, rss, and other games on pc without working several hours to patch a game for linux and play it by double clicking on the icon like a normal person 😭
@@TheLinuxEXP I am really excited too. Also these companies should realize that anti cheat can be better on Linux and how much control they can have to provide a recommended experience than on windows. I know it's a lot of work but for starters that can just dual launch their products and wait for market to grow. I am sure gamers would love to save 100-200$ (not buying windows license) or spend it elsewhere like more powerful GPU, cpu, SSD, motherboard or ram. Microsoft still can't figure out how to deliver updates without pissing off everyone.
The ONE THING stopping me from gaming on Linux is that Discord screen sharing doesn’t share the audio of the window you’re sharing. That’s legit the biggest reason. If I could hop online every weekend without anyone saying “you forgot to switch back to windows!” then I’d have no use for Windows as far as gaming goes!
The real question is the latency time better than the native? For example do the frames get delayed and you get to see the screen 1-2 ms later? In competitive games it does matter a lot
I've tried Arch with the last version of proton, and all 50 games I've tried worked perfectly. I did have to use wineprefix in 3 or 4 of them which would be super cool if it was done automatically as this alone could turn off some users. There was not information available on the games I ran and I'm not an expert on the subject so I had to go by trial and error. Some games that had native versions, did not even work, but worked perfectly under proton. The only issue I ran into with proton is that games made with Unreal Engine ran significantly slower under proton. A few ran 10 FPS slower, while others ran 25 to 100 FPS slower than on Windows. Games done on other engines were fairly close.
Personally, I'd like it if more Linux ports were developed and maintained. But I also understand why that is rarely the case. At the end of the day I don't care if it's a native binary or not, as long as it works. It's nice to see gaming under Linux starting to take off, in any case.
The fact that even John Carmack, which was a major proponent of open technology, was against native ports really speaks volumes in what direction linux gaming should prioritize.
You know what I want? I just want a simple WSL-like system-wide Proton/Wine, with a preset winepfx/bottle that can handle 90% of apps plus an auto-detection method for when they need a specific winepfx/bottle. Steam did that very well, but I wish Valve would allow pulling from protondb to automate the launch commands and protontricks process even further. And then someone (CodeWeavers?) at some point adapting that for normal apps and non-Steam games too (which they're close to doing tbf, with CrossOver and Bottles, but it's still too spotty for me to rely on).
Gaming has always been a sticking point when it come to me staying with Linux. Personally, I don't care about how a game is able to play on Linux. I only care that I can play all of my games at the same, or near same, performance. If I could do that, then I would switch to Linux in a heart beat. I don't use any software that I couldn't easily use an alternative in Linux. The thing about Proton is that it doesn't matter if you're using Arch, Elementary, Zorin, KDE, or any other distro, because it works across the board. As far as the nay sayers that claim it will be the end of Linux.......It will only be the end of Linux if Linux stops being what it is today. In other words, as long as it's still open source, free (for the most part), and not some sort of data collector (ahem Windows), it will be fine. While Linux market share is supposedly low, it's still a big enough community that it would never be an issue.
I’m one of the few who really wants/needs apps (not games) to run on Linux. I dual boot Win10 just to run Quicken. But I don’t see them ever making a proton version. I think web apps are much more likely for apps that don’t need a lot of CPU/GPU resources. Browsers will be the cross platform method, which creates a whole new set of problems.
Nick, I rarely disagree with you, but in this case I definitely do. While your points about update frequency and crossplay compatibility are valid, you're overlooking two issues. 1. Relying on proton will drastically reduce the headway gained in Linux program availability, something that has plagued non windows OS's for years and has only recently started to change. 2. What happens 5, 10, 15 years down the line with legacy support? If you want to use an old version of something and a necessary library is no longer maintained or available? If you want to play/use that game/application, your only recourse would be a Windows partition, something I refuse to do. As an avid FOSS user and supporter, I really don't like anything that takes away focus from FOSS projects. While I use and appreciate proton, I see it as a patchwork fix for the larger problem.... Not enough native support. If there's a 5-20% performance hit for an application, less frequent updates, etc for the proton layer, what is the incentive to use the Linux for the average person? On top of that, PC gamers are always chasing performance. What's the incentive to using Linux if there's a ~10% performance hit on average? Anyway, keep up the good work my friend. I love your content.
Games weren’t FOSS in the first place ;) This is a boon, and Proton will work for legacy compatibility, it already does with older versions of Proton :)
Hey Nic o/ You can already use Proton outside of Steam with other game stores or non-Steam games in Steam with Proton. One way to e.g. run your GoG game with proton is just adding it to the non-steam-games option to your Steam and use Proton that way. The other way is e.g. with Lutris to specify for your GoG game with what wine or even proton version it should run with.
@@TheLinuxEXP True. Proton integration has to happen for convenience. I suspect it will, since it is open - as soon as there are enough requests or demand for it. I myself am very excited for the prospect of SteamOS 3.0, the polishing of Proton and the efforts of Valve on getting the hurdle of Anti-cheat on Linux out of the way. Also the Wayland implications ... For years I wanted to move to Linux completely but there was always that one or two games that made you boot into Windows and at the end I booted Windows more regularly and often again than my Linux instance. With the increasing pressure for Windows 10 and now 11, I can finally show Microsoft the entire finger. I despise Windows 10 and still use Win 7 for games. Sea of Thieves only supports Win 10 upwards? Bah, just install it on Linux, run it through Proton, no Win 10 needed :)
proton is amazing and it have changed gaming on Linux a lot. I hope in the future all will good and all games we can easily run in Linux without any issues :) In my PC now I can't run only Unreal games. They are in 20-30% less performance than in Windows.
I would say that there is nothing to worry about. Game development on GNU&linux is here to stay and it isn't going anywhere. For many their 1st to go platform is some linux based distro and Windows/other OS's comes secondary. Think about this; looking at W3School market share for Linux distro's is between 4% and 6% while on the market compared to platforms such as Steam, GOG, Itch.IO there is 15% to 25% of total native games counted in compared to Windows OS. In my opinion this is success for itself. Not to mention 100% HTML5 compatibility, same goes for JAVA(JAR) based games, flash not exactly 100% but it's getting less relevant nowadays, gaming on emulators etc. Proton in itself ads extra layer for those who can't function without it. Regardless I would say to support native whenever you can, even if port isn't the best if more effort is put into it I can see it becoming better later on. Moreover tool selection is important when having development in mind and for those who didn't had linux in mind at the start Proton will be good choice to ensure it's compatibility . Other than that rest assured that native games aren't going away. Minor cases such as FrozenByte's Trine 4 or online only games such as HON are exception, other games will not just fill the gap but instead offer more choice and widen game selection.
Gaming was the big thing keeping me from switching my private computer to Linux. Proton was a godsend. If client-side anticheat never makes it to Linux, I count that as a win.
Package distribution on Linux is a mess for a reason. Snaps, Flatpak and AppImage have their place but native builds are at a disadvantage from the start. There is a portion from this discussion missing - architecture and design limitations. We could be looking at x86_64 dominance for quite some time but developing a native linux port could mean having the tools for aach64 or ppc64 port with limited additional requirements. While I adore Proton for what it does, I would love to see a lot more being pushed into Wine and off-shoot projects like box86/box64 in conjunction with Proton itself. Architecture support has a lot more to do with infrastructure that is hard to resolve.
i heard they have a vulkan translation api that you can add to your DX game so then you just have to port the game to Linux which is not that hard. So basicly your game will be native and still be doing DX calls but to a Vulkan translation layer. This is great makes it simpler to do ports and in the future i am sure most games will have Vulkan backends anyways
I wouldn't have cared about Linux, accept that Microsuck keeps reaching its hand deeper and deeper into my privacy. Gaming is the only reason I have stuck with Microsoft so far, but I checked the steam comparability index, and 90% of my game library will play on Linux, so its time to jump ship.
This is a Linux-user friendly development, but unless I'm mistaken this looks like nothing will change for Linux-using developers as they'll continue to have to port to Windows. I'm curious if there'll be any efforts in that regard.
A bunch of Source games are known for running better under Proton compared to native, which is funny because Source is Valve's engine. Black Mesa runs at much higher frame rates under proton than native and has a lot less bugs (that game was broken as hell as a native release)
I use Proton all the time, but for every game I have to look into which version of proton to use, what startup commands I have to pass it, and then deal with the shortcomings, such as missing textures, network issues and lower frame rates and quality compared to the same game running on windows on the same hardware.
For people who believe this could be the end of linux, I disagree. If anything, this could be the best thing to make things like Embrace, Extend, Extinguish or other existential threats to the platform (perceived or real) less effective. I'd also love to see some kind of user-friendly and open source Proton Hub pop up in the coming years to make installing and managing programs that use it a bit easier. It might already exist? But newcomers to linux are probably going to want something that you can just install and run with minimal effort. I do hope some developers like the guys at Reaper will keep up their work on their linux versions though, even if they're a bit behind the Windows version sometimes :3
I'm so into Linux distros based on Arch and would like to use it as a daily driver in my work but unfortunately SAPgui is not running well on any Linux distro because of few things. Firstly it has it's own Java port but it works bad with developers transactions. In few years SAPgui will be dropped for developers to move for Eclipse which is good but for now it's impossible to work only in Eclipse :(.
I'm all for Proton. I found that Crusader Kings II works better through Proton than the Linux port on Ubuntu. I welcome the changes and more newcomers. Hopefully this concept bleeds into other app compatibility projects. Android app compatibility could make a Linux smartphone and tablet reality. There might as well be some kinda Proton app for MacOs. This is all a breath of fresh air giving us more options and freedom in regards to our personal computers. I for one welcome the change.
I don't think developers relying on Proton for Linux compatibility is a good thing at all. Note that this is coming entirely from a philosophical standpoint and not a technical one. I don't like relying on Windows and proprietary Microsoft technologies when on a FOSS operating system, running FOSS software wherever I can. I'll take a native port over Proton any day. That said, I still like Proton, think its a great technology that needs to continue to develop and progress. Proton is great for running software from devs that couldn't care less about supporting an OS in the minority. Then again... perhaps I'd be less salty if they got Persona 4 Golden running in Proton... it's the one reason I have Windows 10 installed on an external HDD!
A lot of people think porting most games for linux is eazy as click on export to linux on unity or unreal. The problem with this side of argument is that its not that eazy to port and company will prefer not caring about linux at all. Most of the time devs are using os specific libraries to get more performance and thats why i think proton will only do good to linux gaming, even if devs don't care, in the end we're getting the games.
Eventually they'll care, thanks to the Steam deck if it's a success. It'll push them to make their Windows games perform well in Proton. So in the end we win.
This is definitely true to some extent. But then again, look at Stadia - Their service is running on Linux. Bethesda, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Sega - you name it - all have their games running on Linux. They're willing to put in the effort when its in their favour.
@@hotrodjones74 Alternatively, there'll be a series of less than perfect ports and when people complain the publishers will blame Linux and recommend people install Windows.
@@ugh.idontwanna They are when there's a big market. Also Stadia has a very specific distro and set of libraries to target, so it's quite a different beast than porting to generic Linux desktop distros with different varieties, DE, drivers and so on 😕
@@ugh.idontwanna while true, the problem with Stadia is that the act of making a Stadia version means releasing a cloud-based version, so while the work needed to support a desktop Linux version was undertaken to make the Stadia version, it doesn't push devs/publishers to budge and release the build for Desktop. The logic and set of practice within the larger game industry makes that the case, where as those who traditionally port well (Ryan C. Gordon, Ethan) understand how building for other platforms can be done in a portable fashion that leads into multiple releases.
Meanwhile in some parallel universe: "Native vs WSL - IT DOESN'T MATTER!"
Hahaha yeah that could happen
I tried to game through WSL2! Its terrible xD
If you are asking why: SimCity 4 Deluxe wont run natively on Windows but it runs without problems through Proton so i tried to do that but it was awfull.
@@cnr_0778 Meanwhile I tried to compare running a 2008 Windows-only game on Windows 10 and Manjaro through Steam Proton
Guess which one worked without any hassle
@@trailblazercombi Manjaro + Proton
@@cnr_0778 I mean, did you passthrough the GPU (I can't believe I'm saying this in Windows host, Linux guest context)
Top tier content. Thanks for this.
Thanks, man ;) I appreciate it!
I too appreciate it!
This discussion is the ideal showcase of why idealism is dumb: You will be villainizing the best you can get not because it is not doing what you wanted but because it’s not doing it the way you wanted it to do it.
In my book Proton has no drawback for desktop Linux Gamers… other than growing their library (also don’t kid yourself 95% would have NEVER got a native port, macOS market share is bigger and still does not justify a native port for many studios)
Exactly!!
This is why a Proton compatibility layer should be developed for MacOs too. It's not as good as Linux, but many people use it.
@@hotrodjones74 that would be very cool yea. After all it’s about choice, if all your tools are ok macOS it’s the best operating system for you same as for Windows and Linux.
@@hotrodjones74 That would be cool because it would really make PC gaming just one thing and not Mac gaming, Linux gaming and Windows gaming (and BSD gaming?). It would be really cool if Proton would just turn into an "API" that game devs could support to make games that work on any computer out there.
Native Ports are way faster at starting up than Proton
Game devs by and large are unfamiliar with Linux and can't be bothered to make a good port, and support that port indefinitely.
The Proton route meanwhile is a great compromise we can propose for these devs: Don't bother making a bad port, but do a few little tweaks to ensure platinum compatibility.
Slight correction: Proton is developed by CodeWeavers, the team behind WINE. Valve hired them to fork a gaming-specific version of WINE that comes prepackaged with essential libraries for running within Steam’s ecosystem, but Valve didn’t create and doesn’t develop Proton by itself.
I honestly couldn’t care less about gaming on linux, but I’m so happy to see linux getting more and more attention.
I hope that, one day, there will be a "proton app store" where all non native applications can be downloaded and ran on Linux.
Sounds awfully lot like Lutris.
@@xolagix depending on what game you're installing with lutris, there are still hoops you need to jump through that are a turn off for the average person. E.g. installing libraries, adding repos, etc.
Isn't Steam kinda it?
But, it would be cool huh.
@Victor Lopes Yea
I'm against native Linux games at this point as long as games are designed to be ran on Windows AND Proton since the performance especially on optimized titles using OpenGL / Vulkan is often better or even much better than the performance on Windows. But on applications? No if the dev only provides a Windows version and i couldn't avoid using it i would use Proton to run it but using Proton as a substitute for native Linux apps is wrong in my opinion.
Developing with Proton as a target would also just be a good development practice, not relying on system quirks such as in the case of different Java implementations for example.
@@dafnelately And what is really exciting to me is that you can port Proton to FreeBSD for example and expect it to just work like an API! That's so unbelievably cool.
@@cnr_0778 FreeBSD?!..
Isn’t it like saying port x to Ubuntu instead of GNU/Linux well or Linux as most call it.
@@okay4634 The different BSD systems are pretty different as far as i know.
@@okay4634 "Isn’t it like saying port x to Ubuntu instead of GNU/Linux well or Linux as most call it. "
Nope, because Ubuntu is a Linux distribution, FreeBSD is not.
Many games work better under proton than they do natively (at least from my limited sample size). I recall that native rocket league was absolute garbage, while the proton version was just like in windows. A more recent example would be a game I ran about a week ago called "Golf with friends" on its free weekend. The native version ran like crap on its default settings. It took a while to load, and when I set the graphics settings to high, it was unplayable. The proton version on the other hand ran flawlessly on the max settings. I'd rather have the developers put in work to make the game run really well under proton, than make a native version that runs like shit.
Keep in mind that ALLOT if not ALL game developers don't know how to optimize games in Linux.
Might have to try proton, Golf With Friends hasn't been running the best for me
Agree with you and I would probably rather the same.
Native Rocket league generally ran for me almost 40 FPS more linux natively than playing it ON windows. but the Proton version of the game, still runs the game better than it does on windows so idk haha
@@Fluffy_Eevee Yea
people yelling for native versions have probably never played on linux: I've been on linux for years and even tho I love Feral and their work, the ports are atrocious compared to just running the same game via proton. Proton will be kept updated and improved, those ports are "frozen" and they seldomly get updates.
Most linux-native ports are either gimped (missing features) or is not updated with newer tech (older OpenGL implementations over newer Vulkan renderers)
EDIT: Also, if the game is not using Steam's runtime, you'll most likely have issues with missing or mismatched libraries
If developers keep on developing for Windows and use proton as an easy fix they NEVER learn to optimize games on Linux. So in the long run those developers shoot them selfs in the foot by not going for Linux Native design. Also most native games run better then via Proton, for example Dota2 and CS:GO are both native and run as good or better on Linux then on Windows so it depends on the games and on how much effort developers put in the ports.
Something that also happens on Windows and nobody complaints about it.
And to be honest, companies don't care about backwards compatibility, just look at the re-releases of old games like GTA San Andreas, they are not even interested in improving the port and adapting it to current hardware and current Winodows versions, and fans must fix what the developers should be doing.
They just want easy money.
@@Sumire973 Funny you mention San Andreas while there are credible rumors going around for a remake/remaster of exactly that game.
@@eziothedeadpoetthey only making it for more money
@@tjaytje shore you got the point but Linux is to hardware dependent and there are tons of configurations to be keept uptodate , it not about to learn , it is how much market share exist , most fames are closed source , if Linux would become similar to what android did the there would be allso devs , in order to have great aops you need 3 things 1 HAL,2 Great framework, 3 great API, see it can be done if there are interest
As long as it makes Linux more usable (no need to dual boot) it's good news. Porting is hard, specially if well optimized, plus we have to accept that the Linux market is still miniscule.
I'm more excited about the apps tho, hope they find a way to make them work.
Yeah I’d love that!
i havent dual boot in months , win10 is so good
Imagine:
Having your Win32 apps
Automatically update
With no need to fetch any installers
@@trailblazercombi autoupdate ? isnt that hated?
@@orkhepaj Its not the same like on windows. More seamless, way less performance and time consuming, etcetera.
Fully agree with what you've stated in the video. I even have old version of SketchUp (the last one with really free license), that has problems to run correctly on windows, but has no problem to run in wine, including old plugins :) So yeah, it's not black and white. I do believe with more options come more users.
- First we need games running on linux at any cost
- Then gamers will move over to linux (they are price sensitive, why pay for windows if linux works)
- At that point developers have more reasons to optimize more for Linux than windows and the overhead of proton will be left behind some day
I hope it happens like this
Me too!
Even if there aren't "native" Linux games anymore if proton keeps improving and more people use it the development of proton will be improved and maybe game companies will help improve proton as well or at least start testing and reporting issues in proton with their games so valve AND the community can work on fixing those.
for real. companies that can actually afford to do native probably care too much about profit to do it. while the rest just can't afford to
Uh, just pirate windows.
The DLSS and FSR thing is so true. I watched videos comparing the different modes vs native, and even when zoomed in it's basically the "Corporate needs you to find the difference between these pictures" meme to me.
Yep, it’s impossible to tell
The Steam Deck will convince some people to play on Linux and then developers will have more chance to produce quality native versions.
Valve encourages game devs to make Proton optimized versions instead of native Linux versions.
@@cnr_0778 However they said there was a developement kit for Steam OS, if I'm not mistaken.
@@elrhim7767 Hmm true... But they also need to optimize their games for the special controlls and other Steamdeck exclusive features.
Given the big excitement for the Steam Deck, I'm hoping the Deck will increase mainstream interest in Linux on the desktop, especially if Proton continues to improve.
Native is preferable because Microsoft will likely try to stop Proton from making them irrelevant. I’m not a programmer but couldn’t they implement some OS feature/requirement that Proton wouldn’t be able to replicate?
We as a Linux community are still a small fish in the pond. If proton works as good as a native port, by all means let devopers just use that. Less work on their part, more apps and support for us. And more people could start using Linux as a daily driver, meaning more attention and support for us. And of course more people getting into FOSS and all it's benefits. Win-win if you ask me.
It does matter... in the long run. I'm absolutely happy proton exists, but it probably takes Valve a LOT of resources to keep maintaining it, they probably do it because they wanted to launch the steam deck and the real question is: Will Valve keep maintaining it if the steam deck fails ? My biggest fear with the reliance on proton is Valve dropping its support because it doesn't meet the return on investment expected and even if the community is skilled: you can't really compete with Valve's funding. In the end what can happen is proton falling behind and gaming on linux crashing. It's a great tool, but depending so much on a corporation is scary.
For the time being: Proton is great. Let's just hope it doesn't follow a pattern way too common in FOSS: maintainer losing interest and app not running on future version of your distro.
That's what I'm thinking, in the future, developing for native Linux version should in the dev mindset.
For that to happen, first linux on the desktop have to grow a big enough marketshare for devs to even think about it. 1%of steam gamers pretty much nothing, even if they would be a highly well payin group, but over time, as this marketshare grows, more and more devs will "convert", move their asses over too, or new ones grew out of the new users, and it will start to happen more often. But still, for that to happen, more people have to use it at home, at work, at everywhere to have a significant userbase.
The question of how long valve will support and develop proton, is a good one, but again, only on the long run. For nwo, to the next two years valve need it to make the Deck succesfull.
The first 1 000 people to use the link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/thelinuxexperiment08211
Such a wonderful and educational video. A far cry from the toxicity I've been seeing in recent days in reddit and twitter. Thanks for this.
Thank you :)
As a Novice Dev Native Matters.
If you want to port to Linux, that’s super cool, but IMO, it’s not mandatory
It's honestly amazing how quickly they managed to get proton working for most games. There's a few outliers that keep me from switching to Linux full time like Sea of Thieves and Titanfall 2. But it's mostly because Origin and Xbox Live aren't exactly going to work easily out of the box. If valve thinks they can get those working + anti-cheat support, then I'm excited
I've seen footage of Sea of Thieves running on the Steam Deck. The future is bright.
@@gragogflying-anvil3605 i just hope that proton gets adopted by pretty much every developer. Valve has done most of the work for them to port to an extra platform
Both of these games are dead so you should probably just play something else anyways
Like how Valve put extra effort to get Cyberpunk 2077 working under Proton right at launch of the game.
@@PanosPitsi eh, its mostly friends why i still play thieves, and after getting used to titanfall's movement mechanics it makes you feel so sluggish in other games. I hope respawn or somebody else is working on a successor for TF|2
Even if you run Cyberpunk on a Windows VM with GPU passthrough, you lose on avg 2-4 frames per second, which I'd really not care about.
Yep. That difference is negligible
@@TheLinuxEXP moreover you are free from Windows overheads that is caused by spyware and data collection, telemetry, and ads stuff; so it balances out pretty well.
That's an interesting way to look at it. Using Linux feels so freeing. All that telemetry and overhead...yuck!
@@dorukhan8707 Yeah,everytime i'm using the VM Windows is always doing something in the background consuming cpu and lagging my games on there, and when I shutdown the VM and an windows update appears,I'm just like "Nope" and force shutdown the vm,don't care if it break or not I can just restore a snapshot lol.
@@SuperVista64 yeah, whenever I boot up my windows vm to play my 1 anticheat protected game, I feel so much sorrow for people who use windows on a daily basis as it's so much slower than my linux host, not to mention, I've noticed the CPU was having high usage after starting up and I literally counted for like 10-20 minutes until it dropped down to proper idle CPU usage (had task manager open)
Well, it's better to at least have a somewhat stable way to use a software rather than having nothing.
Exactly!
5:54 The thing with Rocket League is a really bad example imo because they dropped support for Linux after getting bought by Epic and the reason is the EG store only officially supports windows and they’re not selling the game on Steam anymore
No, they removed support because they needed DX features they couldn’t do with OpenGL.
@@TheLinuxEXP They got bought by Epic and Epic only supports windows officially
@@realtimestatic no? What about gta? I play it on a daily using heroic, it cause of what he mentioned before.
Once too many peeps use Linux let us switch to BSD and start convincing again ;)
We won't get locked to Steam, it is good to have a friend with as much influence as them, and if they step out of line the can get forked.
Also, on the performance stuff and not having Native ports, would be grand if people from valve and wine and dxvk etc., they could help major engine makers with a higher understanding of what they do in DirectX that is more or less expensive to translate to Vulkan in Linux, then they can keep making windows games but the performance would increase in proton.
Call me tinfoiled.
Proton is a big boon to linux as a whole right now no doubt about that and it will bring more people over (as it did for me as well).
Thing is what i'm afraid of that this dependency on that translation layer which basically in return depends on how windows api calls work and will work.
If the marketshare rises quickly enough, it might work out in the end, but there is the potential that with windows 11/windows 12/whatever, microsoft might decide to completely rewrite their APIs and functions, which would cause games created specifically for that newer standard to end up borked with a a lot of work needed to be done on the side of the WINE team.
While this situation seems unlikely, i agree on that, since microsoft has always been big trying for backwards compatibility, this is still a danger that in my eyes shouldn't be disregarded.
It would be folly for Microsoft to do that as it'd be a lot of work with no benefit for anyone.
Do you remember Vista. That was that, originally when it was Longhorn. They were trying, but at the end they ended up shipping something, what have changed, but not that much as they wanted originally.And yet, people were still pissed of with vista (tried its beta, i actually liked it, but when i actually made the swithc from xp it was almost already win7 time, so my femily and i ended up spending no time on vista afterall. Then there was win8. I liked it (probably same reason why i like GNOME), yet most people hated it while ms tried to change things again, so ms ended up walking backwards on what they ahve did, and give the people what peopel wanted, same oldschool os they were using already for decades. thats an another ig hurdle for linux to overcome. To change the way people thingk and interact with their pcs on windows, the linux wasy are.. completely different. And for some it will be a hard bite. (Till i didnt realized it, it was actually angering me, why things were different, why i couldnt do things the same way like on windows.. uhh, boy, the first few months were somewhat hard as i was slowly loosing the windows habits.)
I look forward to having all my games and controllers, especially steering wheels, working in Linux, whether native or via Proton. Then I can finally dump Windows forever. I hate having to boot into Windows to play a game, especially now that I've upgraded my PC and now my Windows is deactivated 😕
Isn't controller support on Linux even better than controller support on Windows?
@@cnr_0778 they say so, but a didn't get mine to work with Rocket League on Proton
@@InakiArzalluz What controller where you using?
@@cnr_0778 idk honestly, a generic one. It runs perfect on Windows using x360ce, do you know about some way to make it work in linux? It would be really cool c:
Edit: i mean make the joystick work, not x360ce
@@InakiArzalluz So it's just some no name controller? Hmm you might be able to get it working through Steam input if Steam can detect it.
I watched few videos with comparisons between Windows, Linux native, Linux/Proton, Linux/Proton/DXVK performance In games and Linux with with Proton + DXVK was second only to Windows. Outperformed even native Linux games, for some reason. Still far from perfect, but close to good.
Nice channel by the way.
After my gaming rig died, I got a new, fairly basic gaming pc. Dumped windows and am now a "Linux gamer".
Would love to see other store fronts officially support Linux but gotta say I was pleased with how simple and easy it was to install Origin and the sims 4 through Lutris.
Amazing news love from Nepal
For some reason youtube decided not to notify me of this one haha, but it was suggested to me
Damn it RUclips…
This is amazing news
Although there is one problem you didn’t cover. Drivers. I have an Elgato HD60S and it had no driver support for linux… and the community project is dead, last i checked. It’s probably the main thing holding me back from switching completely
I know it isn't ideal, but can't you sell this model and buy one with native Linux support? And have you tried changing your kernel version? Maybe you can get lucky with older kernel versions that might have the driver you need.
Well, with more people on linux it will change too, slowly but will. Or elgato will loose marketshare.
Getting Linux and Windows gaming on essentially the same platform is a huge boost. As mentioned, Linux has a minimal market share, which means minimal effort goes in. But if the same client can be used on both, we benefit, especially if Microsoft makes breaking changes to their OS, because I doubt Proton will follow suit.
You're doing a great job helping to bring Linux to the masses!
Thank you :)
About other stores, I play WatchDogs 2 on uPlay through proton, using Lutris. It works pretty well and only multiplayer is broken due to anticheats. In the same way, I have the Epic Launcher 😊
If we give devs proton and let them develop with it then they might start using linux for proton development and after windows fully looses the gaming market share then maybe they will start making games with linux in mind
Steamdeck is a huge help on that front: increases linux install base.
there's a new app called Bottles that runs apps with Proton pretty easily
thankyou, I will try it out!
9:45 it will always look out of place if you use a different toolkit than the rest of the system
this also goes for e.g. Inkscape and GIMP on Windows
linux = 2.38%
unknown = 8.04%
unknown + linux = 10.42%
so linux percentage could be anywhere between
2% and 11% of the market , since we don't know what the 'unkown' is and linux is very well known for not being very well track-able.
Thanks for explaining what proton actually is. Everyone discuss proton but I could never work out how it actually worked so I appreciate your intro to it.
Since a few years of using win10 and it breaking constantly on updates requiring me to wipe clean install basicly each year. (i used win7 and winvista without inssues for years never had to clean install them).One of the reasons iam not dual booting is afraid windows will do something even crazier :(. Hoping for anti cheat fixes to swap.
My Windows install does not want to get updated. It always end with BSoDs after a short time on newer versions than 1803. Glad I've made some full disk backups. My Ubuntu disk in the same PC however has no problems.
Dual booting should be fine when windows has its own disk. It looks to overwrite the bootloader with its own, which doesn't matter when it has its own disk. Works fine for me für little over a year now.
Yes, Windows 7 was last best windows version, which is why Microsoft had to make it not viable for use, mainly... It doesn't support uefi natively (which makes it hard to use windows 7 with gpio/GPU passthrough), and to get the gamers moving to 10 they had 7 not support DirectX 12 (and probably push devs to always use the latest versions of their products) and make it EOL
What Linux distro do you use as your daily driver? Love your videos man!
Thanks a lot! I use Manjaro KDE and KDE neon on my laptop.
One very important next step for Wine/Proton is native support for Wayland, (currently in development by Collabora) and with that, get all the benefits that Wayland windows get + lower input latency by not requiring XWayland.
If we do need to compare native and Wine/Proton performance, then the latter usually has less frame stability overall. Shadow of the tomb raider for example is super stable and wouldn't necessarily need adaptive sync, even getting higher frame rates than on Windows with the same settings. Wine/Proton can have very noticable frame drops so now and then while playing AAA games.
I have an issue with xorg on my system when something will randomly freeze if its in fullscreen so I installed gnome Wayland and it works like a charm for everything Including proton games (I assume running through xwayland)
@@spagettech Wayland has the idea that every frame has to be perfect. This makes the overall Wayland experience extremely nice, however for gaming this can become a challenge as the compositor + forced vsync can introduce a lot of extra input latency. And that's without XWayland as extra layer on top of it. To enable a good gaming experience on Wayland there is something called direct scanout (added to Sway and KDE) which bypasses the compositor and avoids extra buffering which reduces latency. The forced vsync can however be a problem, which could be resolved by adding an option for asynchronous page flipping as an option for fullscreen windows. This would introduce tearing but Sway and KDE also support adaptive sync (freesync/gsync) to make sure you wouldn't see that.
for me an another bigger issue were game capture on wayland when the games were running on vulkan (as most proton game will run on DXVK or VKD3D, thus on vulkan), thenkfully its been solved now, obs got a plugin not long ago, and it works like a charm (ofc, i was fucking blind, and for a week i couldnt figure otu why it wasnt working.. i had to run OBs with the right env variable to enable it.. YEAH. RTFM :D). obs-vkcapture the name of it.
You made one mistake.
GOG started working on their Linux client (and GOG as a store already supports Linux games)
That’s cool!
Every time there is a game that has a native Linux port, I just force it to be played through proton. Exceptions are Valve's game. CSGO, L4D2 etc.
Proton is often better than some ports because the ports are not very good. Some "native" versions are only the Windows version bundled with some ancient version if Wine.
Hollow Knight is one of the good ports from my experience.
i am currently using WINE to run windows specific application on Linux and frankly for basic application I find it run more smoother and faster on Linux on my old desktop as compared to use those application on windows 10
what DE/DISTRO are you using at 9:06. it's very beautiful! i want it!
also any guides on how to use proton with software?
Native ports aren't really about performance IMO. It's about stability and the ability to mod games easily. That's my concern. I think Proton should always be a thing, because people should be able to _choose_ what how they want the game to be played. However Valve shouldn't hold all the cards as that means if anything happens to Valve, we're fucked. We should put the application as close to the hardware as possible. Additional programs will cause additional issues. Especially when it comes to game launchers with DLC
I really think a well-made Native Linux game is really better than a Proton Game. Proton might be slightly worse from performance than a game running natively on windows but a proton game will be lacking a lot in terms of performance to a well made linux native Vulkan Game.
I think Proton is amazing for letting us get more applications and people but our end goal should probably be to aim for good Linux games as they offer greater performance and integrate better in the system and don’t take up as much storage and have a lot of advantages
I do think Proton is Amazing tho and I really appreciate everyone working on it
Oh man, this video made me happy, the future is bright for us Linux users.
Totally!
Proton platinum compatible *>* shoddy Linux port all day any day.
Exactly
Meanwhile my horrible project:
Native version: 60fps
Windows version with Proton: 60fps
Excellent!
windows 120fps
@@orkhepaj locked to 60 as well
So far every Windows game I've thrown at Proton worked absolutely fine. However I still prefer native titles.
Im increasingly interested in escaping WINDOWS, thank you for giving me HOPE!
Another video game example: Overcooked 2 in native and Proton.
Native worked perfectly, but quits suddenly whenever my controller gets disconnected from my PC. And native doesn't have online multiplayer/crossplay.
Proton worked perfectly too. But it didn't quit suddenly when a controller disconnects. And it has crossplay support. Hosted all my friends for online play, when their own Windows games couldn't host everyone for some reason.
I love having a native Linux port, but you'll still feel that features aren't always as up-to-date.
I don't mind having a Proton-compatible game, esp if the game is mostly compatible.
Great discussion. I use proton everyday. It runs Battlefield 5 on ubuntu GREAT.
The big issue is that NO ONE is paying a Windows Tax to play a AAA Game anymore.
Awsome to see how proton is so good you cant feel the framerate drop
Yeah, it doesn't matter cuz hardly any company cares to make a native linux game Anyways, we are literally playing games via proton and wine so we shouldn't be bothered when steam is promoting PROPER proton ports which is tested by the companies to run the games without issues.
Also I really want anti cheat support for linux out this whole situation so I can play genshin impact, rss, and other games on pc without working several hours to patch a game for linux and play it by double clicking on the icon like a normal person 😭
That’s going to happen pretty soon ;)
@@TheLinuxEXP I am really excited too.
Also these companies should realize that anti cheat can be better on Linux and how much control they can have to provide a recommended experience than on windows.
I know it's a lot of work but for starters that can just dual launch their products and wait for market to grow. I am sure gamers would love to save 100-200$ (not buying windows license) or spend it elsewhere like more powerful GPU, cpu, SSD, motherboard or ram. Microsoft still can't figure out how to deliver updates without pissing off everyone.
The ONE THING stopping me from gaming on Linux is that Discord screen sharing doesn’t share the audio of the window you’re sharing. That’s legit the biggest reason. If I could hop online every weekend without anyone saying “you forgot to switch back to windows!” then I’d have no use for Windows as far as gaming goes!
The real question is the latency time better than the native? For example do the frames get delayed and you get to see the screen 1-2 ms later? In competitive games it does matter a lot
Correct me if the terms I used are incorrect.
I've tried Arch with the last version of proton, and all 50 games I've tried worked perfectly. I did have to use wineprefix in 3 or 4 of them which would be super cool if it was done automatically as this alone could turn off some users. There was not information available on the games I ran and I'm not an expert on the subject so I had to go by trial and error.
Some games that had native versions, did not even work, but worked perfectly under proton.
The only issue I ran into with proton is that games made with Unreal Engine ran significantly slower under proton. A few ran 10 FPS slower, while others ran 25 to 100 FPS slower than on Windows. Games done on other engines were fairly close.
Personally, I'd like it if more Linux ports were developed and maintained. But I also understand why that is rarely the case. At the end of the day I don't care if it's a native binary or not, as long as it works. It's nice to see gaming under Linux starting to take off, in any case.
The fact that even John Carmack, which was a major proponent of open technology, was against native ports really speaks volumes in what direction linux gaming should prioritize.
Running on Proton/Emulation/Trickery is the difference between running like butter and running through butter.
I am excited for Proton anticheat and hoping it won't be closed source and tied to the Steam Deck hardware. But it may be...
I hope it’s widely available, yeah!
The end of Linux? More like the end of WIndows. Hail Proton
You know what I want? I just want a simple WSL-like system-wide Proton/Wine, with a preset winepfx/bottle that can handle 90% of apps plus an auto-detection method for when they need a specific winepfx/bottle. Steam did that very well, but I wish Valve would allow pulling from protondb to automate the launch commands and protontricks process even further. And then someone (CodeWeavers?) at some point adapting that for normal apps and non-Steam games too (which they're close to doing tbf, with CrossOver and Bottles, but it's still too spotty for me to rely on).
I just love seeing that the part of the video most skipped to is right after the sponsor 😂
I genuinely enjoy your content and the topics you cover man, please keep it up !
Thank you!
Gaming has always been a sticking point when it come to me staying with Linux. Personally, I don't care about how a game is able to play on Linux. I only care that I can play all of my games at the same, or near same, performance. If I could do that, then I would switch to Linux in a heart beat. I don't use any software that I couldn't easily use an alternative in Linux. The thing about Proton is that it doesn't matter if you're using Arch, Elementary, Zorin, KDE, or any other distro, because it works across the board. As far as the nay sayers that claim it will be the end of Linux.......It will only be the end of Linux if Linux stops being what it is today. In other words, as long as it's still open source, free (for the most part), and not some sort of data collector (ahem Windows), it will be fine. While Linux market share is supposedly low, it's still a big enough community that it would never be an issue.
I personally don't care. It's not emulation anyway, it's just API calls in the end
and if game devs have to deal with a single set of them then great.
Exactly!
I’m one of the few who really wants/needs apps (not games) to run on Linux. I dual boot Win10 just to run Quicken. But I don’t see them ever making a proton version. I think web apps are much more likely for apps that don’t need a lot of CPU/GPU resources. Browsers will be the cross platform method, which creates a whole new set of problems.
Nick, I rarely disagree with you, but in this case I definitely do. While your points about update frequency and crossplay compatibility are valid, you're overlooking two issues. 1. Relying on proton will drastically reduce the headway gained in Linux program availability, something that has plagued non windows OS's for years and has only recently started to change. 2. What happens 5, 10, 15 years down the line with legacy support? If you want to use an old version of something and a necessary library is no longer maintained or available? If you want to play/use that game/application, your only recourse would be a Windows partition, something I refuse to do.
As an avid FOSS user and supporter, I really don't like anything that takes away focus from FOSS projects. While I use and appreciate proton, I see it as a patchwork fix for the larger problem.... Not enough native support. If there's a 5-20% performance hit for an application, less frequent updates, etc for the proton layer, what is the incentive to use the Linux for the average person? On top of that, PC gamers are always chasing performance. What's the incentive to using Linux if there's a ~10% performance hit on average?
Anyway, keep up the good work my friend. I love your content.
Games weren’t FOSS in the first place ;)
This is a boon, and Proton will work for legacy compatibility, it already does with older versions of Proton :)
Hey Nic o/ You can already use Proton outside of Steam with other game stores or non-Steam games in Steam with Proton.
One way to e.g. run your GoG game with proton is just adding it to the non-steam-games option to your Steam and use Proton that way.
The other way is e.g. with Lutris to specify for your GoG game with what wine or even proton version it should run with.
Yeah but it’s not as practical as native support
@@TheLinuxEXP True. Proton integration has to happen for convenience. I suspect it will, since it is open - as soon as there are enough requests or demand for it.
I myself am very excited for the prospect of SteamOS 3.0, the polishing of Proton and the efforts of Valve on getting the hurdle of Anti-cheat on Linux out of the way. Also the Wayland implications ... For years I wanted to move to Linux completely but there was always that one or two games that made you boot into Windows and at the end I booted Windows more regularly and often again than my Linux instance. With the increasing pressure for Windows 10 and now 11, I can finally show Microsoft the entire finger.
I despise Windows 10 and still use Win 7 for games. Sea of Thieves only supports Win 10 upwards? Bah, just install it on Linux, run it through Proton, no Win 10 needed :)
proton is amazing and it have changed gaming on Linux a lot. I hope in the future all will good and all games we can easily run in Linux without any issues :) In my PC now I can't run only Unreal games. They are in 20-30% less performance than in Windows.
I would say that there is nothing to worry about. Game development on GNU&linux is here to stay and it isn't going anywhere. For many their 1st to go platform is some linux based distro and Windows/other OS's comes secondary. Think about this; looking at W3School market share for Linux distro's is between 4% and 6% while on the market compared to platforms such as Steam, GOG, Itch.IO there is 15% to 25% of total native games counted in compared to Windows OS. In my opinion this is success for itself. Not to mention 100% HTML5 compatibility, same goes for JAVA(JAR) based games, flash not exactly 100% but it's getting less relevant nowadays, gaming on emulators etc. Proton in itself ads extra layer for those who can't function without it. Regardless I would say to support native whenever you can, even if port isn't the best if more effort is put into it I can see it becoming better later on. Moreover tool selection is important when having development in mind and for those who didn't had linux in mind at the start Proton will be good choice to ensure it's compatibility . Other than that rest assured that native games aren't going away. Minor cases such as FrozenByte's Trine 4 or online only games such as HON are exception, other games will not just fill the gap but instead offer more choice and widen game selection.
Gaming was the big thing keeping me from switching my private computer to Linux. Proton was a godsend. If client-side anticheat never makes it to Linux, I count that as a win.
Correction: Linux has a runner for proton besides steam: It's called Lutris and has been around for year.
Package distribution on Linux is a mess for a reason. Snaps, Flatpak and AppImage have their place but native builds are at a disadvantage from the start.
There is a portion from this discussion missing - architecture and design limitations. We could be looking at x86_64 dominance for quite some time but developing a native linux port could mean having the tools for aach64 or ppc64 port with limited additional requirements.
While I adore Proton for what it does, I would love to see a lot more being pushed into Wine and off-shoot projects like box86/box64 in conjunction with Proton itself. Architecture support has a lot more to do with infrastructure that is hard to resolve.
i heard they have a vulkan translation api that you can add to your DX game so then you just have to port the game to Linux which is not that hard. So basicly your game will be native and still be doing DX calls but to a Vulkan translation layer. This is great makes it simpler to do ports and in the future i am sure most games will have Vulkan backends anyways
DXVK Native
I wouldn't have cared about Linux, accept that Microsuck keeps reaching its hand deeper and deeper into my privacy. Gaming is the only reason I have stuck with Microsoft so far, but I checked the steam comparability index, and 90% of my game library will play on Linux, so its time to jump ship.
This is a Linux-user friendly development, but unless I'm mistaken this looks like nothing will change for Linux-using developers as they'll continue to have to port to Windows. I'm curious if there'll be any efforts in that regard.
Another example of better performance is team fortress 2 which runs natively but it's so poorly optimized proton increases fps
Hello, is the theme you use in KDE a ready-made theme or did you make it yourself, if it is a ready-made theme, can you write the theme name?
I'm glad that you will be focusing on your RUclips channel, I wish all the best in life and may success follow you.
Good luck!!!
Thanks a lot!
A bunch of Source games are known for running better under Proton compared to native, which is funny because Source is Valve's engine. Black Mesa runs at much higher frame rates under proton than native and has a lot less bugs (that game was broken as hell as a native release)
another point (not sure if it was already made, probably) but most people already game on steam... so you don't have to purchase again for linux
Write once run anywhere
So it saves developers from screwing up. Doesn't seem like such a good thing essentially. Not in the long run at least. Great right now though.
Good video! On point and unbiased with enough information (also fun and entertaining)
Thanks for heart!
I use Proton all the time, but for every game I have to look into which version of proton to use, what startup commands I have to pass it, and then deal with the shortcomings, such as missing textures, network issues and lower frame rates and quality compared to the same game running on windows on the same hardware.
For people who believe this could be the end of linux, I disagree. If anything, this could be the best thing to make things like Embrace, Extend, Extinguish or other existential threats to the platform (perceived or real) less effective. I'd also love to see some kind of user-friendly and open source Proton Hub pop up in the coming years to make installing and managing programs that use it a bit easier. It might already exist? But newcomers to linux are probably going to want something that you can just install and run with minimal effort.
I do hope some developers like the guys at Reaper will keep up their work on their linux versions though, even if they're a bit behind the Windows version sometimes :3
Exactly!!
I'm so into Linux distros based on Arch and would like to use it as a daily driver in my work but unfortunately SAPgui is not running well on any Linux distro because of few things. Firstly it has it's own Java port but it works bad with developers transactions. In few years SAPgui will be dropped for developers to move for Eclipse which is good but for now it's impossible to work only in Eclipse :(.
People shouldn't be too greedy. I'm happy for what Proton is doing. Will only get better and will attract attention the better it gets.
I'm all for Proton. I found that Crusader Kings II works better through Proton than the Linux port on Ubuntu. I welcome the changes and more newcomers. Hopefully this concept bleeds into other app compatibility projects. Android app compatibility could make a Linux smartphone and tablet reality. There might as well be some kinda Proton app for MacOs. This is all a breath of fresh air giving us more options and freedom in regards to our personal computers. I for one welcome the change.
I don't think developers relying on Proton for Linux compatibility is a good thing at all.
Note that this is coming entirely from a philosophical standpoint and not a technical one.
I don't like relying on Windows and proprietary Microsoft technologies when on a FOSS
operating system, running FOSS software wherever I can. I'll take a native port over Proton any day.
That said, I still like Proton, think its a great technology that needs to continue to develop and progress.
Proton is great for running software from devs that couldn't care less about supporting an OS in the minority.
Then again... perhaps I'd be less salty if they got Persona 4 Golden running in Proton... it's the one reason I have Windows 10 installed on an external HDD!
Alternative approach: Develop as Linux native, then use Windows Subsystem for Linux to make the Windows version.