WOW. Doug i discovered your channel a week ago and have been watching through your build absolutely transfixed. What a project. Even more rewarding to work on with your family. Your grandson will probably find any sort of engineering or trade easy since you have introduced him to it so young. My dad got me working in the trades young although welding wasn't one of them. I look at the boat in your front garden and just think... god bless America. You would get arrested for doing something like that here in England. Plenty of pen pushers and nosy buggers have nothing better to do... But that aside. I'm not as technically skilled as you. But I think your automatic gearbox for that engine will get your started, but I'm not sure how long it will last seen as the torque converters don't lock up till higher RPM's. I don't know about the trucks and buses that run on US roads, but here in the UK until about 10 years ago. Most of our big HGV's (44-56 tons) had manual gearboxes. There was a smaller HGV manufacturer about 20 years ago called ERF which used Cummins diesel engines among others and they had manual gearboxes with 16 ratios - 8 gears with a splitter so there was a high and low ratio for each one. Generally manual gearboxes are protected from wear by the clutch which isn't massively difficult to replace and I've also never seen one fail completely. Normally you just loose a gear or two but can still limp in one of the others. It might take some rigging to run hydraulics and shifter cables for up to the pilot house but i think it could be less likely to fail completely without some warning.
+zoidberg444 Thanks. I've spoken to a couple of folks that rebuild and even customize Allisons for a living and I am encouraged by their opinions. Especially given that we have a controllable pitch propeller. Even so it is an experiment, but I like experiments. :)
+SV Seeker I would agree with the above, you would think a simple 3:1 reduction gear would work better. With that automatic you run the risk of being able to slip and not actually being able to drive the propeller without sufficient RPM (torque converter). Also a more simple system (less things to break and go wrong). Im sure that Cummins would push along nicely in just idle even, something you wouldn't really have with the automatic. I was thinking a transfer case off a 4x4 ( most range between 2.7:1-4:1 with all sorts of custom options), which would give you the reduction you're wanting, but also allow you to run another shaft off of the motor. Homemade PTO? It would give you the option of being able to run a bigger generator or hydraulic pump (whatever you wanted), by itself ( disengaged prop drive) or while under power to the screw? Just an idea. Either way. I wish I had seen these videos years ago, and I'm sure it will work out for ya. Id love to come help.
Hey Zoid You made some valid comments about the transmission not locking up at lower rpm's I am here in the USA and there are some locations where you cant do the things like what Doug is doing but all in all you can do what you want ( within reason) I watch a lot of British programs such as Grand Designs and of course Top Gear, and I am always amazed at pettiness of the counsels and it seems everybody wears an orange vest. I think James May said it best when he said Men in sheds can make great things. GB has given the world so many many super great inventions I just wonder if the creativity is being squashed! Anyway good luck to you
Another great video. It's always a pleasure to look at your work and I am sure that we are many. Encore une excellente video. C'est toujours avec plaisir que je regarde votre travail, et je suis certain que nous sommes plusieurs.
I loved the opening shot, it grabbed my attention . You did a great job editing, not a slow spot in the video. So happy to see you getting more help. I think carving Mt Rushmore was easier than what you are doing. Thanks for making and sharing.
Great video, that must be the most people you have had on board the boat at one time so far. I would call the pipe that the shaft runs through the 'stern tube' but then as far as i'm concerned a car has a bonnett and a boot and not a hood and a trunk haha. Its a good idea when you align the thrust block or pitch control box to the shaft, to clock the output shaft of the control box and measure how far the shaft can lift up in the bearing and then drop the box down half that distance to allow the shaft to rise up in the bearing as it rotates, otherwise the prop shaft will be forcing the output shaft to rub on the bottom half of the bearing. Just a thought.
Aweigh@Sea I think it's the most people we have had working at the same time. Lift up in the bearing? The thrust bearings? I don't think they have any appreciable movement.
Yeah, sorry, you are right, the control box has roller bearings so it isn't an issue. Sorry about that. With plain bearings where the shaft "floats" (hydrodynamic lubrication) on a film of oil when running then it would apply. Sorry about that, anyway I'm by no means an expert.
SV Seeker I shook hands with a guy today I will be the proud owner of a steel 29ft bilge keel sailboat this thing is mint condition its is huge inside its fit out perfect and i got it for $14k
Doug: I don't know if an earlier poster has mentioned this (I didn't read all the posts) but it would be a good idea to make the mount of the propeller control box adjustable in height. When a boat sits on land it "hoggs" and when you put it in the water the shape of the hull and the alignment between this box and the prop shaft can change. I had this on a 34' cruiser I had. When we slipped it for anti-fouling, the alignment between the engine gearbox and prop shaft would change measureably.
Are you looking at some extra oil cooling for the transmission and/or servo for rudder? Commonly used on high torque sportscars or heavy towing to increase efficiency and longetivity of transmission and oil.
peterpunch1 There is a heat exchanger for the transmission and we'll install a temperature gauge on that. I been told by the transmission guys that keeping the transmission oil cool is critical to it's longevity.
Your getting more & more help which that's great & your boat will soon be done. Love the new hats you have there. You should put up a little store to sell your hats & other stuff you may have & that money will help you on your boat project. Keep up the great work :)
SV Seeker Then have other hats available for purchase. On the back they could read...."I'm not helping build the boat, but hoping for a ride!" See you at the docks with my bags packed !
Is there enough of a footprint on the base to spread the loads to avoid point loading & print through? Might be overkill, but I'd add longitudinals to tie it together and extend the cross braces to further spread the loads.
I feel the same as CH. "Hard spots" : vibration : stress cracking in the long term. I also reckon the hull deadrise angle ("V") is probably quite a lot too shallow to be an effective substitute for longitudinal girders. If the keels were closer together (and did not stop short of the aft bulkhead) they would arguably have served, but would not be well place for their primary functions. As it is, there are serious "hard spots" at the aft ends of each keel, particularly in respect of fore and aft pitch, so you might want to consider another pair of girders out by the keel, to help to stiffen the hull bottom. This will prevent cracking from those locations, a bit like a 'bucket handle tear' in a kneecap. Here's the minimum scantlings from Dave Gerr's "The Elements of Boat Strength" for steel engine beds on a steel hull for an engine your size: (a pair of T-girders, with horizontal flange sitting centered on a vertical web, running longitudinally) Flange thickness: 8mm, Flange width: 100mm, Web thickness 6mm Web Height: 150mm (ie 5/16', 4", 6") These are on the assumption of framed construction, in which case they would be welded to upstands integral to the transverse framing of the hull bottom (aka 'floors'). In the absence of frames, I would recommend the depth be increased in the vicinity of the engine and the Hundested unit, to at least 200mm (8") These girders would run fore and aft all the way to the nearest bulkheads. Gerr stipulates "tripping brackets" (I call them gussets) welded at intervals between flange and web to maintain the rigidity of the flange. These gussets (sniped at the corners) should also connect to the hull in your case, given that there are no frames to stabilise the girders. Gusset thickness same as web thickness. I realise you were not asking for advice on this point, so I apologise for offering it uninvited, and I don't consider you're under any obligation to take any notice of it.
I also would be concerned with fatigue of the drive supports and simple plate to hull contact. The 47' I skippered had a 2x6 steel channel support box frame welded 6" flat against the hull for the engine as well as the transmission case. All the mounts were then welded to that so there was no telegraphing of flex or stress load to the hull via the rubber vibration isolation mounts. I'm sure you've designed it in already but be sure to leave yourself fairly easy access to the engine while running. No telling what belts, hoses or hydraulic lines will decide to leak or pop off while in open water. You dont always have the luxury of docking somewhere to make repairs. ;~)
A 2 stroke Cat motor would have been an awesome motor for the Junk. If you got bore you could water ski behind it.Maybe plane up onto the side keels. lol I wish I could have been there when you were in full smelting operation. So much I want to learn about the smelt.
Doug; Nice progress and good to see folks helping you out. One thing to do when you finally get the boat running is to limit your redline on the engine so that you don't cavitate the propeller. You mentioned about a 700 RPM shaft speed so I did some quick calculations. Typically we try to limit maximum water flow speed to about 100 ft/sec in piping design to avoid cavitation and that also works for the propeller spinning in water. I am not quite sure what your propeller diameter is, so here is the max RPM for 3 different sizes: Diameter Max RPM 90%RPM 2.5' 760 680 2.75' 700 630 3.0' 640 580 You can do linear interpolation of the RPM for your exact diameter. These would be the maximum RPM you would want to run for short periods of time, more likely you want to run at 90% of max for long periods. Regards; Ron Kluwe
I think the diameter is 27" with a anticipated 26" pitch for cruising. I've never seen size related to RPM. Where did you get those numbers. I read is was increased surface area that reduced cavitation, but the shroud show diminish cavitation as well.
Doug; Increased blade area at max diameter plus the shroud will help with controlling cavitation, but sooner or later you hit a speed where you will get cavitation across the whole length of the blade edge at the maximum diameter point. You can also do some tricks with the geometry of the blades to help reduce cavitation, but that takes a supercomputer to figure out all the angles, etc. At 27" diameter, the propeller should be fine for 90% run rate at 700 to 730 RPM. Knowing the numbers to use is the benefit of a chemical engineering degree plus 35 years working as an engineer. Basically the 100 feet per second comes from the ratio of water density to air density and the sonic speed of sound. If I ever make it to Tulsa, I will swing by with a good bottle of wine and bore you to tears with laminar flow theory, Reynolds numbers, roughness coefficients, etc. This ratio of water to air is used by aeronautical engineers to do simple testing of airfoils in water tunnels instead of air tunnels since the velocity of water can be much less to get the same effect as close to sonic air flow. One interesting story on propeller cavitation is that Toshiba was almost blacklisted from selling anything in the U.S. during the 1980's because they sold some 5 axis CNC machines to the Russians that allowed the Russians to machine their submarine propeller blades so that cavitation was significantly reduced. Since it was the blade cavitation that was used by U.S. subs to track Russian subs, the U.S. Navy was more than upset by Toshiba significantly improving the Russian subs sound reduction capability. Regards; Ron Kluwe
I liked steve's shirt, brings back memories... I was part of the Big Red One, 1-7 FA same brigade as 1-18.. I just ran across your videos, what your doing is nuts!! haha I love it though, keep it up!
As a arm chair shade tree mechanic I would like to offer a few observations. Now that you have your engine squared away in the engine room you might want to consider the oil reservoir, oil and fuel filters being mounted remotely from the engine, such as on a bulk head as this will make maintaining the engine much easier. Also I read someone saying your engine might be too small for your ship. Torque, not horsepower will consistently push your junk through the water. I believe your engine to be a 10 or 11 liter diesel, which should have a computer connection. Contact the manufacturer for the engine program and you can setup the engine for what have you. A real time laptop will save you hundreds of gallons of fuel over the life of your junk. Good luck. I love your videos. You make me proud to be American. Papajon.
I'll repeat what someone said earlier. Look at the yokes at 11:15. The U joints must be aligned "rifle barrel" style, inline, and they are not. IE with front joint end caps level, the rear one must have a level cap as well
I heard something I really like to hear from time to time, when you were indicating the shaft. It was the words spoken " I don't know". So many people I have worked with are just plain scared to admit they don't know something!
mparkerlisberg Yes. The cutlass bearing is rubber and is lubricated by water. There is an expensive PSS dripless seal between the shaft long and the propeller shaft, and it has a water line connection to provide a flow of water through the cutlass bearing.
he made that variable pitch prop, himself,that's impressive, some real skill. I love to build and fab stuff, but,usually simpler more crude and functional ,never casted anything i find that fascinating, thanks for making the video.
are you keeping the radiator??? obviously uou will have a heat exchange and raw water pump. whill it run off a belt how are you mounting ? what size? I suggest go huge pump driven from double pulleys. you can double as a wash down pump if you go big, and big heat exchange.
What a brilliant idea.. I love simplicity. One thought. Have you considered what happens if you take boat to tropical waters. Is the heat transfer through that steel enough? Perhaps you could put a heat exchanger in as a back up that could run off the electrical washdown pump that could be turned on with cocks to add cooling if in warm water and not enough heat transfer?
Doug another classic video update. May I offer Armchair advice? I think 0.020 inch runout is way too much and would be looking to improve on that. Was the engine sitting on old mounts or new ones? If sitting on new mounts they will creep and settle after a while - say a month and you will need to go back in and re shim for alignment. You really do need to establish if the shaft has a bend in it and correct if necessary. On the engine room decks I would recommend angle iron construction with portable plate infill. It will give you the access you need and flexibility in terms of installing new equipment. Brilliant progress, it's amazing the difference extra hands make - even just fetchin'and carrying, particularly when the fetchin involves up and down ladders. 😃
Nice work, but from where the video shows the shaft from the transmission to the prop control box it looks like the u-joint is out of phase. A cardan universal joint goes through 2 speed change cycles per revolution, requiring the second joint in the system to be 90 degrees out of phase with the first to cancel out vibrations. All that to say, the two inner yokes need to be in the same plane, which makes the leading yoke of each joint 90 degrees out of phase with each other. An easy fix with the spline in the shaft. Keep up the good work.
How about converting the diesel oil pan to a marine size pan, and I wonder if there is a baffle difference in marine/auto pans ? And the trans pan also, will that be working correctly if the boat is healing over ?
Good point Brian Bayer ! You need internal baffles that will hold the oil close to the pickup when the boat is healed over. Same with the trans. A smart engine person could handle the design and welding, although a dry sump with a separate tank is really optimal. Also, those sump pans are sheet metal and will see salt water. Carrying a spare pan for each and a couple of gasket sets is not crazy. You will need to inspect and repaint those pans often. (P.S. A manual transmission has a heavy cat iron case all the way around !)
It appears the driveshaft is in alinement between transmission and gearbox. The issue is i don't think the U joins will get proper lubrication if there isn't some angle in the shaft. I've personally experienced this issue several times when connecting large drive motors by way of driveshafts to machinery. Just an FYI for you. There is a formula for calculating this but I lost it many years ago. You may already have the proper angle on the shaft, as video is hard to see.
I apologize if this has been mentioned in another video. I did see in the comments you talked about corrosion and salt maintenance on the hull and some sheet metal parts. However it accrued to me that you are using a water-cooled system. Will you be drawing cool water in from below the waterline or will you be using a closed system such as the one that came in the bus? I’m sure with regular flushing of the system to keep the water jackets and coolant passages clear of salt/rust build up you could run it directly into the engine. Have you considered building a heat exchanger out of brass or aluminum so that you could draw outside water in, but not actually run it thought the engine its self? Joe, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Joe Richards We are not using raw water for cooling. We will circulate the coolant through the skeg where the heat will be drawn into the surrounding water. See: ruclips.net/video/ZnzHJVd_M9A/видео.html
Hi Doug, Great channel!! I run an engine oil valve from fumotousa which replaces the sump plug, makes oil changes real easy. Also I'm running Evans Coolant which is waterless so it never needs changing and doesn't cause corrosion, another plus for you is it doesn't pressurize the cooling system like a water based coolant. Have you thought about a bow thruster? Makes life much easier when docking....
SV Seeker Yes it is expensive, I didn't realise the skeg held so much. I'm sure they will sponsor you if you give them a plug ;-). Anyway good luck with the build can't wait to see this thing in the water....even better sail it over to Australia! Tony
A hydraulic driven bow thruster would be a superb coup de grace on this boat. I wonder if the hydraulic pump is electrically powered, would the bow thruster be an emergency use motor/secondary engine.
On sacrificial anodes, how will you mount them? with studs on the surface?, will you go with zinc or aluminum?, I don't remember if this was mentioned at all, but I think it's an important aspect. Mounting them sounds like it could be an issue unless they can be tack welded to a "rough" plate welded on top of the surface? (assuming they are cast with steel tabs). Heck, are these expensive? I would consider making my own, you have everything at hand and they don't have to be pretty.
My current plan is to weld on some small stainless plates to the hull and then weld the zincs to the stainless. I don't think they are that expensive but we could cast them ourselves. I'm not sure if aluminum are as good a zinc.
SV Seeker I'm not sure either, but it sure is worth looking into to protect the investment. I would also consider the fact that some may get lost so I would have clusters of them instead of a couple big anodes, plus in theory that would provide more surface area which should help in theory, I'm not sure how you'll get the stainless not to rust once it's joined with the steel, as it will get contaminated, brazing?
SV Seeker The anode material should be different depending on the water salinity. Magnesium is best for fresh water and zinc for salt. You are trying to neutralize the electrical potential between the different metals, by making a battery with the anodes. If you put too many on, you reverse the process, and start corrosion, in the opposite direction. I would simply weld an extra plate of steel to the hull for each of the anode mounts, and not use stainless since that is yet another bi-metal junction which would cause corrosion, even though stainless is pretty low on the chart. They make corrosion sensors that give you an accurate count of your electrical potential, and alert you for eroded anodes and other stray currents.In a steel boat that would be a good idea.
hey I have a brand new stainless prop shaft I got for my boat because I thought I had a bent shaft but wasnt,, now I have a 1 1/4 x 63 shaft I have no use for,, im sure its too small for your use but thought I would ask,, if you have any use for it let me know,, its tapered and keyed on one end and keyed on the other,,
wouldn't it be easier (and more precise) to mount the pitch controller and the engine on something like adjustment screws? so you can easily balance everything out once it is set up, and you could eliminate vibrations from unbalances that will occure later (because i guess that everything will distort a bit once it will have to take forces)...
+Christopher 051 Certainly in a conventional shaft layout you need to adjust the engine mounts to true up the coupling once the boat has been launched, as the hull inevitably flexes a little from the changing forces (keel hanging down, hull supported by water instead of vice versa). But Doug's got those universal joints and sliding splines in his shaft, so there shouldn't be any need for that.
Depois de ter acompanhado com admiração e entusiasmo, todo o vosso trabalho através dos Videos que vão publicando, não posso deixar de felicita-los pelo grandioso exemplo que têm vindo a dar a todos que apreciam a vossa obra.
Hard to tell, but you want the driveshaft ears inphase with each other. if not, you can get vibration. So when you put the shaft on its spline, ensure the ears are inline. Awesome mounts you made though!
@@SVSeeker Do you worry about lack of redundancy? The 5.9 is dead reliable, but if you have a fuel issue... would be good to have some kind of back up. The sails wouldn't be worth much when in the harbour / navigating small water.
I must commend you on what looks like an interesting build however I would have some concerns that your engine is not big enough for a vessel of that size and weight. I don't mean in terms of horse power but in terms of sheer physical robustness. There is a lot of difference in ability between a 200hp outboard engine, a 200hp truck engine and a 200hp fishing boat engine. Looking at the size of the boat and the amount of steelwork I would probably be wanting something in the 12 litre range regarding size such as a CAT C12 or the identical FPT C12. It may just be the video but your engine looks about half that capacity? I would also fit a marine gearbox. Automotive gearboxes just aren't designed for the duty life of a marine application.
lol, I could sell you a new one( www.cryco.co.uk )? Joking aside ebay usually has a few on it. I understand it's a sailing vessel but your still going to need to motor in and out of port and in adverse winds. I have to say I'm new to your channel but enjoying it. I'm a marine engineer and for a short time I was also a ROV pilot tech so your projects are right up my street.
+Chris Ryan Indeed, the Allison trans. is the weak link in this picture. The engine however looks like a 6B Cummins used in many tug boats and pushers. It will get the job done.
if you want power on the boat you need to think about a way to use the motor to turn a generator. running on battery's should never be a main source of power
Few concerns here. I'm think .005 on run out would be exceptable on the shaft. If your shaft is bent you need to take it out and put it between v blocks to check it and if it is out then heat shrink it with a torch to bring it with in .010 max. should do a final alignment on the shaft and prop control drive on the final install. All this will make it last. It will work like it is, but you need it to last. Also need to install the yoke's on the drive shaft inline of each other if you didn't know that? I don't think the transmission is going to like the hours and hours of running in first gear. I could be wrong on that, but a lest make sure the torque convert is got to lock up in first or the transmission will over heat or if you can get rid of the heat, it would be a huge waist of energy.
SV Seeker Further on the yokes: if the deflection angles of the universals are equal and OPPOSITE (meaning the crankshaft is parallel to the Hundested axis) then the yokes should be inline (in phase), as others have said. (I think you said deflection angles of 3/4 degree each?) If the angles are equal and the SAME direction (eg: engine level, driveshaft 3/4 deg down, Hundested 1 1/2 deg down) then the universals should be set at 90 degrees (out of phase). Great progress, good to see!
+Mike G. Rivas I'm down to welding pieces together. Buy the friendly folks at Interstate Steel and Metals will be glad to help you out. Tell them the guy building the big boat sent you.
I was going to make some of the same points as the comments below, so some additional points, vibration dampers,and slosh plates in the oil pan so the engine does not cavitate,a common issue with automotive engines in boats ,I would be interested in a marine engine specialist shimming in on this thread Thanks CptnUwe
It's a trade off between fuel consumption, speed, power, how much you plan on actually using it, and cost. The values for every persons variables will be different.
InvalidMemberAccount We may draw the fresh air into the engine room over the intercooler or fork out for an air to liquid heat exchanger. That decision is still down the road.
I didn't see enough video or narration on how you lined up the prop shafts angle with the muff couplers angle . The muff coupler unit didn't appear to have a universal on it , nor any adjustment on the muff coupler units mounting brackets. I'm sure you know a perfect alignment is needed here to insure long term reliability. Did I miss something ?
Building that temporary mount was the trick. The muff coupler is ridged so we measured alignment of the shaft with a dial indicator sitting on the shaft log.
SV Seeker ok , I watched the alignment part a few times . I'm still concerned. My advice... First, make sure the prop shaft is perfectly straight , if not , make it straight and center the prop shaft perfectly in the shaft log. Then , make a very snug sleeve ( perfectly straight ) to fit over all the exposed prop shaft with it long enough to go through the center of the entire muff coupler ( all the inners out ) . Now you can dial in the exact alignment of the muff coupler with the prop shaft. Bolt down the muff coupler housing. Recheck the alignment buy spinning the prop shaft with the sleeve at both ends of the muff coupler. I know how to get a perfect alignment, I'm just not sure how to write how to do it . I'm just concerned that the muff couplers shafts within its housing MUST be perfectly in line with the prop shaft since the muff coupler is rigidly mounted. Any misalignment here is future trouble. There are probably other ways to do it too . Please give it the time and effort.
offplanetevent Shaft is straight. The cutlass bearing is not yet set, but ti will be glued in after it's pined in place with set screws while on the shaft.
offplanetevent If he has to adjust the alignment of the muff coupler, he could make an adapter plate with slots, between the hard mounts and the muff coupler. The mounts themselves probably would not have to move.
Kevin Hornbuckle yeah, he could make the mounting plate with some slots for adjustment , both for angle, parallel alignment and perpendicular alignment (prop shaft with the pitch drive box shaft ) . He may need to use some shims too and hopefully a lock down system once it's been dial in perfectly . Yes, all this because I have been thinking about thrust force , bearing load and vibration. I Don't think you want any detectable vibration, the prop shaft and the pitch drive box both being rigidly mounted MUST be in perfect alignment to one another on all planes, Every moving part has a frequency vibration due to harmonics, which aids in lubrication . I'm not sure why you think it needs vibration for lubrication.
Engine Room. All Ahead Full!! :P I see some others have already suggested plumbing an oil drain line, so I don't have to. :D Personally, I'd think you might want a little more longitudinal reinforcement on the drive box. The hull plates might warp a little under load and pull the shaft out of alignment. But I tend to "over-engineer" stuff anyway. :)) Great progress! I can hardly wait till I can take a few days off & visit again. :D
Hey Jeff. I think we are going to do that with removable tanks. I what to be able to make room around the main engine and keep flexible for installing other equipment. I don't thing and additional framing is needed. It's no more that 2000 pounds of force and that V in the hull along with the bulkheads and keels make that room one of the strongest in the boat.
SV Seeker my proffesional opinion is to re inforce it, you get vibrations in it, so it would be a good thing to do (the heavier and stronger it is , the better!
SV Seeker Building (and repairing) boats! (and everything on board, electronics, diesels generators, propulsion etc etc! (type VRM marine in you tube, one of the video's is the engine of my private tug boat!), like your video's, respect for the way you made your proppeller blades!
MrBugsier5 Cool. I have a 70Hp JohnDeere in a 185chm Sullair air compressor. I'd like have that engine coupled to the compressor pump with a PTO drive shaft so that it can also be coupled to a 30wk generator head. Is that possible?
Hey don't forget to align the yokes on the drive shaft, looks like you have your spline rotated off a little, if the ends are not aligned you will eat u-joints, common mistake in drive shafts
doug, could i ask what the bhp output of the bus engine is if you know that is and when it was a school bus do you know how many miles per galion it returned. she sure is taking shape now, looking better and better each film that you post. good luck and stay warm.....
SV Seeker thanks doug for the links. i used to work for a company called speedy power here in england which is why i asked about the tanks the other time.i used to make wiring looms and set up building site or events electrical supply solutions etc. when you need help with the electrics and wiring etc shout me up and i will jump strait on a plane to you. also good with hydralics. learnt to weld when i was in the workshop both mig and stick. power supply solotions is my better skills. looking forward to the next film, jakob....
I think the u joints on the drive shaft should be lined up with each other. )====( two piece spline shaft. Having them misaligned will cause vibration. Look at a solid drive shaft the ends are aligned.
Normally a boat wold have an engine BED installed to spread the load from the drivetrain OUT into the hull to prevent damage to the hull due to vibration and stress from the drive train. In a BOAT the drivetrain never gets to COAST as in a bus the Drivetrain when underway is under LOAD all the time. Without a bed you put ALL the stress loads on the small welded points on the hull. Eventually it WILL fail at that point and may compromise the hull itself flooding the boat. AT the LEAST you need to install LARGE PADS welded to the hull THEN weld the mounts to the pads. Just a thought, (;-) TP
Hi Doug I'm going back though the videos. where you are mentioning gear ratios on the Alison transmission you probably don't need to be to concerned. a gear box is a torque multiplier it needed to move a 10 ton bus not a propeller. I think it should run OK in top gear thus reducing the revs of the engine needed to make 700 rpm on the prop. they are normally geared 1to1 or close to in top gear, so making your rpm your prop speed. usually max rpm on a diesel engine is 2200 rpm I doubt you will get 700 on the prop in 1st gear
Doug was there any desire to start the motor up with everything connected to see how well things work? Also did I understand you correctly you'll be doing a dry exhaust ?
Too many other things have to be installed before the engine can turn the prop, so that will wait until final assembly. And yes, I am considering a dry exhaust vented through the aft mizzen mast.
offplanetevent The shaft goes into the muff coupler. You want some vibration. But not too much. If the angle is right, lube happens. Pay attention to thrust.
I have been watching with wonder! Good for you go get what you want. You are just getting to the good part putting the spinny parts in. I have read the comments on this vid up until this moment and have just a couple of comments. Sea trials should involve tattle tails like a snug fitting o-ring around the spline on the shaft between trans and the VP box will show deflection in drive line that you can see and measure. some well placed dixie cups with water in them will show vibes in the hull. And a shaft loop is a good idea if the aft u-joint lets go.
SV Seeker Got many more thoughts but you have a confidence I hate to shake. A small story bout me, Former Mk3 USCG and I just kinda know how stuff works. currently a Srvice tech
SV Seeker My feet have been on the dry for way too long! Grew up here in the Great Lakes and have kin lost at sea! watching your drive inspires! Thanks!!
Hi - Great work I love seeing the progress. I have a question - Do you plan to add additional framing internally? Seems like very large spans of unsupported steel.
No. I believe the hull to be adequately strong due to it's shape. People are accustomed to seeing hulls constructed on frames. The frames are there to give you some place to put the hull sheeting. Origami does not need that.
SV Seeker Doug - I agree the frames are not necessary for hull strength (in terms of coping with the competing forces of displacement and buoyancy) Some sort of local structure is however (I reckon) absolutely necessary at specific locations, wherever large forces need to be fed into the hull. You are correct in thinking the propulsion thrust forces are not a biggie, because they are smoothly applied (fluidly coupled) and moderate in amount, even at their peak. However there are considerable inertial forces caused by the concentrated mass of the main engine, which wants to stay put when a big wave smacks into the quarter and the boat staggers and lurches away from under the engine. Plus vibrational forces, which more than make up for their small quantity by their prodigious quantity, being applied thousands of times a minute. These can cause cracking in the strongest structure, at the locations where the local stiffness (different from strength) is not up to the task. Steel is very strong, and rather springy, but mild steel cannot act as a spring indefinitely. Long-span steel bridges invariably crack over time, because it's just too expensive to make them stiff enough. So ... the length of the cracks is carefully monitored: when a crack reaches a certain percentage of the "critical length" for that particular grade of steel, it must be repaired, or it will run away and cause a failure. A strong crane which (say) can lift 20 tons without a whimper will likely fail around the plates connecting the hydraulic ram to the boom if a load of 5 tons suddenly drops a yard or two, to be arrested by the crane. It may survive one such incident, but it will be condemned and cut up. It's hard to get unanimity from marine engineers and architects and yards, but I think engine beds is a rare exception. Dispensing with these can REALLY end in tears (both sorts)
Gottenhimfella The nice thing is that it will be easy to monitor and modify if needed. It will be fun to have some strain gauges hooked up to an Arduino to monitor various locations on the boat.
While I know those Allison transmission are solid, I would have looked for a manual transmission. Less complicated. The drive shaft seems kind of long, unless you were trying to get the engine closer to the midship. Where is the "stuffing box" ? A certain amount of "leakage" around the stuffing is considered normal and actually help lubricate the stuffing. This means you will ALWAYS have some water in sloshing around down there ! Any "plates" (flooring) over anything in the engine room need to be easily removable. That could mean a small permanent overhead winch on a trolley. Also, if you have to remove the floor in heavy seas, how are you going to stow it ? Consider using "expanded metal" over rotating parts so you can see if they are spinning properly.
theoldwizard998 Right, moving weight forward and getting more work room behind it. No stuffing box. We have one of those expensive PSS seals. Plan to be able to remove the decking as well as the steel supports for the decking. And we are going to put a porthole in the pilothouse floor that lets us look into the engine room below. The expanded metal over the drive line is a good idea. Thanks
Running the diesel at around 2500 rpms? Peek hp is 22-2300 rpm (torque drops dramatically at 2100 rpm), so that gives you a lot of throttle to work with. More progress!
I think the optimal RPM for that engine is 1700. It comes down to fuel efficiency and life of the engine. I guess he could always shift into second gear! Will the tranny need a cooler?
I'm a little worried that some people (me included) might confront you on false advertising in this video Doug...... You mentioned muff coupler more than once, AND NOT ONCE DID I SEE ANY BLOODY MUFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You got me all exited mate :(( Hahaha Couldn't resist I do apologise. It's all starting to happen mate, engine going in etc etc. It's really starting to resemble a boat now. You must be getting exited, because every video you are so much closer to completion.... ATB Matt
Hey Doug I just started watching your Channel today. You're doing a great work, I love it. Just wanted to find out if there are any other engine room videos?
always watching your videos. Cant wait to see the boat done
WOW. Doug i discovered your channel a week ago and have been watching through your build absolutely transfixed. What a project. Even more rewarding to work on with your family. Your grandson will probably find any sort of engineering or trade easy since you have introduced him to it so young. My dad got me working in the trades young although welding wasn't one of them.
I look at the boat in your front garden and just think... god bless America. You would get arrested for doing something like that here in England. Plenty of pen pushers and nosy buggers have nothing better to do... But that aside.
I'm not as technically skilled as you. But I think your automatic gearbox for that engine will get your started, but I'm not sure how long it will last seen as the torque converters don't lock up till higher RPM's. I don't know about the trucks and buses that run on US roads, but here in the UK until about 10 years ago. Most of our big HGV's (44-56 tons) had manual gearboxes. There was a smaller HGV manufacturer about 20 years ago called ERF which used Cummins diesel engines among others and they had manual gearboxes with 16 ratios - 8 gears with a splitter so there was a high and low ratio for each one. Generally manual gearboxes are protected from wear by the clutch which isn't massively difficult to replace and I've also never seen one fail completely. Normally you just loose a gear or two but can still limp in one of the others. It might take some rigging to run hydraulics and shifter cables for up to the pilot house but i think it could be less likely to fail completely without some warning.
+zoidberg444 Thanks. I've spoken to a couple of folks that rebuild and even customize Allisons for a living and I am encouraged by their opinions. Especially given that we have a controllable pitch propeller. Even so it is an experiment, but I like experiments. :)
+SV Seeker I would agree with the above, you would think a simple 3:1 reduction gear would work better. With that automatic you run the risk of being able to slip and not actually being able to drive the propeller without sufficient RPM (torque converter). Also a more simple system (less things to break and go wrong). Im sure that Cummins would push along nicely in just idle even, something you wouldn't really have with the automatic.
I was thinking a transfer case off a 4x4 ( most range between 2.7:1-4:1 with all sorts of custom options), which would give you the reduction you're wanting, but also allow you to run another shaft off of the motor. Homemade PTO? It would give you the option of being able to run a bigger generator or hydraulic pump (whatever you wanted), by itself ( disengaged prop drive) or while under power to the screw? Just an idea.
Either way. I wish I had seen these videos years ago, and I'm sure it will work out for ya. Id love to come help.
Hey Zoid You made some valid comments about the transmission not locking up at lower rpm's
I am here in the USA and there are some locations where you cant do the things like what Doug is doing but all in all you can do what you want ( within reason) I watch a lot of British programs such as Grand Designs and of course Top Gear, and I am always amazed at pettiness of the counsels and it seems everybody wears an orange vest.
I think James May said it best when he said Men in sheds can make great things.
GB has given the world so many many super great inventions I just wonder if the creativity is being squashed!
Anyway good luck to you
Another great video. It's always a pleasure to look at your work and I am sure that we are many.
Encore une excellente video. C'est toujours avec plaisir que je regarde votre travail, et je suis certain que nous sommes plusieurs.
Thanks
I appreciated the 1-18 INF shirt; served with those guys in Africa and they are first class. Glad to see things coming together!
I loved the opening shot, it grabbed my attention . You did a great job editing, not a slow spot in the video. So happy to see you getting more help. I think carving Mt Rushmore was easier than what you are doing. Thanks for making and sharing.
Robb's Homemade Life Thanks Robb
Great video, that must be the most people you have had on board the boat at one time so far. I would call the pipe that the shaft runs through the 'stern tube' but then as far as i'm concerned a car has a bonnett and a boot and not a hood and a trunk haha. Its a good idea when you align the thrust block or pitch control box to the shaft, to clock the output shaft of the control box and measure how far the shaft can lift up in the bearing and then drop the box down half that distance to allow the shaft to rise up in the bearing as it rotates, otherwise the prop shaft will be forcing the output shaft to rub on the bottom half of the bearing. Just a thought.
Aweigh@Sea I think it's the most people we have had working at the same time. Lift up in the bearing? The thrust bearings? I don't think they have any appreciable movement.
Yeah, sorry, you are right, the control box has roller bearings so it isn't an issue. Sorry about that. With plain bearings where the shaft "floats" (hydrodynamic lubrication) on a film of oil when running then it would apply. Sorry about that, anyway I'm by no means an expert.
Aweigh@Sea No worries, I'm no expert either. Thanks of helping.
SV Seeker I shook hands with a guy today I will be the proud owner of a steel 29ft bilge keel sailboat this thing is mint condition its is huge inside its fit out perfect and i got it for $14k
Doug: I don't know if an earlier poster has mentioned this (I didn't read all the posts) but it would be a good idea to make the mount of the propeller control box adjustable in height. When a boat sits on land it "hoggs" and when you put it in the water the shape of the hull and the alignment between this box and the prop shaft can change. I had this on a 34' cruiser I had. When we slipped it for anti-fouling, the alignment between the engine gearbox and prop shaft would change measureably.
Please don't ever finish it! I really don't know what I will watch. I've loved this up to know, than you so much for sharing, hi from Yorkshire, U.K.
Your videos haven't been showing up in my recommended list.....i have missed so many.....great to see the progress .......not long now!!
I love the mag-drill. One of my favorite tools of all time.
Really cool to see the progress. If i get the chance i'll take a trip on your boat. Just getting used to being on the sea now here in Norway ;)
Are you looking at some extra oil cooling for the transmission and/or servo for rudder? Commonly used on high torque sportscars or heavy towing to increase efficiency and longetivity of transmission and oil.
peterpunch1 There is a heat exchanger for the transmission and we'll install a temperature gauge on that. I been told by the transmission guys that keeping the transmission oil cool is critical to it's longevity.
Your getting more & more help which that's great & your boat will soon be done. Love the new hats you have there. You should put up a little store to sell your hats & other stuff you may have & that money will help you on your boat project. Keep up the great work :)
No, the hats are for crew and must be earned. :)
Good idea. They have to work for the hat.
SV Seeker Then have other hats available for purchase. On the back they could read...."I'm not helping build the boat, but hoping for a ride!"
See you at the docks with my bags packed !
SparksMagoo Might do that. :)
Fascinating. America is alive and kicking with the freedom of Individual's projects.
-gilpin 5-20-16
Is there enough of a footprint on the base to spread the loads to avoid point loading & print through? Might be overkill, but I'd add longitudinals to tie it together and extend the cross braces to further spread the loads.
Crunch Hardtack The sides of the hull form a V in that area and so I believe it to be abundantly strong.
I feel the same as CH. "Hard spots" : vibration : stress cracking in the long term.
I also reckon the hull deadrise angle ("V") is probably quite a lot too shallow to be an effective substitute for longitudinal girders. If the keels were closer together (and did not stop short of the aft bulkhead) they would arguably have served, but would not be well place for their primary functions.
As it is, there are serious "hard spots" at the aft ends of each keel, particularly in respect of fore and aft pitch, so you might want to consider another pair of girders out by the keel, to help to stiffen the hull bottom. This will prevent cracking from those locations, a bit like a 'bucket handle tear' in a kneecap.
Here's the minimum scantlings from Dave Gerr's "The Elements of Boat Strength" for steel engine beds on a steel hull for an engine your size:
(a pair of T-girders, with horizontal flange sitting centered on a vertical web, running longitudinally)
Flange thickness: 8mm, Flange width: 100mm, Web thickness 6mm
Web Height: 150mm (ie 5/16', 4", 6")
These are on the assumption of framed construction, in which case they would be welded to upstands integral to the transverse framing of the hull bottom (aka 'floors').
In the absence of frames, I would recommend the depth be increased in the vicinity of the engine and the Hundested unit, to at least 200mm (8")
These girders would run fore and aft all the way to the nearest bulkheads.
Gerr stipulates "tripping brackets" (I call them gussets) welded at intervals between flange and web to maintain the rigidity of the flange. These gussets (sniped at the corners) should also connect to the hull in your case, given that there are no frames to stabilise the girders. Gusset thickness same as web thickness.
I realise you were not asking for advice on this point, so I apologise for offering it uninvited, and I don't consider you're under any obligation to take any notice of it.
I also would be concerned with fatigue of the drive supports and simple plate to hull contact. The 47' I skippered had a 2x6 steel channel support box frame welded 6" flat against the hull for the engine as well as the transmission case. All the mounts were then welded to that so there was no telegraphing of flex or stress load to the hull via the rubber vibration isolation mounts.
I'm sure you've designed it in already but be sure to leave yourself fairly easy access to the engine while running. No telling what belts, hoses or hydraulic lines will decide to leak or pop off while in open water. You dont always have the luxury of docking somewhere to make repairs. ;~)
sotxbob We will see. I'll let you be concerned for me.
A 2 stroke Cat motor would have been an awesome motor for the Junk. If you got bore you could water ski behind it.Maybe plane up onto the side keels. lol I wish I could have been there when you were in full smelting operation. So much I want to learn about the smelt.
Hi Great work. it is good to see the engine being positioned.
note the drive shaft should have both yokes at each end aligned to prevent resonances
There is an old video. The engine is permanently installed now. It will be in the next video.
Doug;
Nice progress and good to see folks helping you out. One thing to do when you finally get the boat running is to limit your redline on the engine so that you don't cavitate the propeller. You mentioned about a 700 RPM shaft speed so I did some quick calculations. Typically we try to limit maximum water flow speed to about 100 ft/sec in piping design to avoid cavitation and that also works for the propeller spinning in water. I am not quite sure what your propeller diameter is, so here is the max RPM for 3 different sizes:
Diameter Max RPM 90%RPM
2.5' 760 680
2.75' 700 630
3.0' 640 580
You can do linear interpolation of the RPM for your exact diameter.
These would be the maximum RPM you would want to run for short periods of time, more likely you want to run at 90% of max for long periods.
Regards;
Ron Kluwe
I think the diameter is 27" with a anticipated 26" pitch for cruising. I've never seen size related to RPM. Where did you get those numbers. I read is was increased surface area that reduced cavitation, but the shroud show diminish cavitation as well.
Doug;
Increased blade area at max diameter plus the shroud will help with controlling cavitation, but sooner or later you hit a speed where you will get cavitation across the whole length of the blade edge at the maximum diameter point. You can also do some tricks with the geometry of the blades to help reduce cavitation, but that takes a supercomputer to figure out all the angles, etc. At 27" diameter, the propeller should be fine for 90% run rate at 700 to 730 RPM.
Knowing the numbers to use is the benefit of a chemical engineering degree plus 35 years working as an engineer. Basically the 100 feet per second comes from the ratio of water density to air density and the sonic speed of sound. If I ever make it to Tulsa, I will swing by with a good bottle of wine and bore you to tears with laminar flow theory, Reynolds numbers, roughness coefficients, etc. This ratio of water to air is used by aeronautical engineers to do simple testing of airfoils in water tunnels instead of air tunnels since the velocity of water can be much less to get the same effect as close to sonic air flow.
One interesting story on propeller cavitation is that Toshiba was almost blacklisted from selling anything in the U.S. during the 1980's because they sold some 5 axis CNC machines to the Russians that allowed the Russians to machine their submarine propeller blades so that cavitation was significantly reduced. Since it was the blade cavitation that was used by U.S. subs to track Russian subs, the U.S. Navy was more than upset by Toshiba significantly improving the Russian subs sound reduction capability.
Regards;
Ron Kluwe
Ron Kluwe Yeah. Greg Cotton is a submariner, and I despises Toshiba too.
That's really exciting to see the power plant in place.
Yeah, I was fun to see it in place.
I liked steve's shirt, brings back memories... I was part of the Big Red One, 1-7 FA same brigade as 1-18.. I just ran across your videos, what your doing is nuts!! haha I love it though, keep it up!
just subbed ,,huge undertaking for a back yard project .cool
Front Yard. And welcome.
Nice project! I've been watching for about a year now and it's can a long way
Incredible teamwork there on the engine room work. Amazing video!
Thats a hell of alot of work you guys have done so far. Its really cool seeing it starting to come together though.
As a arm chair shade tree mechanic I would like to offer a few observations. Now that you have your engine squared away in the engine room you might want to consider the oil reservoir, oil and fuel filters being mounted remotely from the engine, such as on a bulk head as this will make maintaining the engine much easier. Also I read someone saying your engine might be too small for your ship. Torque, not horsepower will consistently push your junk through the water. I believe your engine to be a 10 or 11 liter diesel, which should have a computer connection. Contact the manufacturer for the engine program and you can setup the engine for what have you. A real time laptop will save you hundreds of gallons of fuel over the life of your junk. Good luck. I love your videos. You make me proud to be American. Papajon.
I'll repeat what someone said earlier. Look at the yokes at 11:15. The U joints must be aligned "rifle barrel" style, inline, and they are not. IE with front joint end caps level, the rear one must have a level cap as well
I heard something I really like to hear from time to time, when you were indicating the shaft. It was the words spoken " I don't know". So many people I have worked with are just plain scared to admit they don't know something!
Appalachian Stillhunter That's one of the benefits of having really high self-confidence.
Will you have any seal to prevent water ingress though the prop shaft ?
Malcolm
mparkerlisberg Yes. The cutlass bearing is rubber and is lubricated by water. There is an expensive PSS dripless seal between the shaft long and the propeller shaft, and it has a water line connection to provide a flow of water through the cutlass bearing.
he made that variable pitch prop, himself,that's impressive, some real skill. I love to build and fab stuff, but,usually simpler more crude and functional ,never casted anything i find that fascinating, thanks for making the video.
are you keeping the radiator??? obviously uou will have a heat exchange and raw water pump. whill it run off a belt how are you mounting ? what size? I suggest go huge pump driven from double pulleys. you can double as a wash down pump if you go big, and big heat exchange.
+Boadecia Journey Not keeping the radiator. The skeg will be filled with coolant and replace it. No raw water pump.
What a brilliant idea.. I love simplicity. One thought. Have you considered what happens if you take boat to tropical waters. Is the heat transfer through that steel enough? Perhaps you could put a heat exchanger in as a back up that could run off the electrical washdown pump that could be turned on with cocks to add cooling if in warm water and not enough heat transfer?
nice work, think i would have used saddle plates on the hull for mounting the engine and especially the box with 1300lbs thrust pressure.
Doug another classic video update. May I offer Armchair advice? I think 0.020 inch runout is way too much and would be looking to improve on that. Was the engine sitting on old mounts or new ones? If sitting on new mounts they will creep and settle after a while - say a month and you will need to go back in and re shim for alignment. You really do need to establish if the shaft has a bend in it and correct if necessary.
On the engine room decks I would recommend angle iron construction with portable plate infill. It will give you the access you need and flexibility in terms of installing new equipment.
Brilliant progress, it's amazing the difference extra hands make - even just fetchin'and carrying, particularly when the fetchin involves up and down ladders. 😃
Nice work, but from where the video shows the shaft from the transmission to the prop control box it looks like the u-joint is out of phase. A cardan universal joint goes through 2 speed change cycles per revolution, requiring the second joint in the system to be 90 degrees out of phase with the first to cancel out vibrations. All that to say, the two inner yokes need to be in the same plane, which makes the leading yoke of each joint 90 degrees out of phase with each other. An easy fix with the spline in the shaft. Keep up the good work.
Cummins power!
Like the variable pitch setup as well
Just think, by the middle of next year we might be watching you power down to the gulf in your scratch built boat.
Optimistic, but I like the positive vibes.
How about converting the diesel oil pan to a marine size pan, and I wonder if there is a baffle difference in marine/auto pans ? And the trans pan also, will that be working correctly if the boat is healing over ?
Brian Bayer Interesting. They make different oil pans for marine? I know about dry sumps, but never hear of a marine oil pan.
More square in shape as it does not need to go over an axle. My truck holds 3 gallons, my boat holds 4 gallons,
Good point Brian Bayer ! You need internal baffles that will hold the oil close to the pickup when the boat is healed over. Same with the trans. A smart engine person could handle the design and welding, although a dry sump with a separate tank is really optimal.
Also, those sump pans are sheet metal and will see salt water. Carrying a spare pan for each and a couple of gasket sets is not crazy. You will need to inspect and repaint those pans often. (P.S. A manual transmission has a heavy cat iron case all the way around !)
Just a quick note. You'll need to ensure that the Universal Joints in your intermediate shaft are phased to reduce vibration and premature wear.
+sam sneddon Copy that
wow brilliant work lads
It appears the driveshaft is in alinement between transmission and gearbox. The issue is i don't think the U joins will get proper lubrication if there isn't some angle in the shaft. I've personally experienced this issue several times when connecting large drive motors by way of driveshafts to machinery. Just an FYI for you. There is a formula for calculating this but I lost it many years ago.
You may already have the proper angle on the shaft, as video is hard to see.
I apologize if this has been mentioned in another video. I did see in the comments you talked about corrosion and salt maintenance on the hull and some sheet metal parts. However it accrued to me that you are using a water-cooled system. Will you be drawing cool water in from below the waterline or will you be using a closed system such as the one that came in the bus? I’m sure with regular flushing of the system to keep the water jackets and coolant passages clear of salt/rust build up you could run it directly into the engine. Have you considered building a heat exchanger out of brass or aluminum so that you could draw outside water in, but not actually run it thought the engine its self?
Joe, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Joe Richards We are not using raw water for cooling. We will circulate the coolant through the skeg where the heat will be drawn into the surrounding water. See: ruclips.net/video/ZnzHJVd_M9A/видео.html
Hi Doug, Great channel!! I run an engine oil valve from fumotousa which replaces the sump plug, makes oil changes real easy. Also I'm running Evans Coolant which is waterless so it never needs changing and doesn't cause corrosion, another plus for you is it doesn't pressurize the cooling system like a water based coolant. Have you thought about a bow thruster? Makes life much easier when docking....
Rex Venom Thanks. $30 a gallon and I need about 200 gallons. hmmm.. :)
SV Seeker Yes it is expensive, I didn't realise the skeg held so much. I'm sure they will sponsor you if you give them a plug ;-). Anyway good luck with the build can't wait to see this thing in the water....even better sail it over to Australia! Tony
A hydraulic driven bow thruster would be a superb coup de grace on this boat. I wonder if the hydraulic pump is electrically powered, would the bow thruster be an emergency use motor/secondary engine.
Kevin Hornbuckle We're still kicking that idea around.
SV Seeker retractable 360° electric bow thruster, like the cruise ships have , only smaller.
On sacrificial anodes, how will you mount them? with studs on the surface?, will you go with zinc or aluminum?, I don't remember if this was mentioned at all, but I think it's an important aspect. Mounting them sounds like it could be an issue unless they can be tack welded to a "rough" plate welded on top of the surface? (assuming they are cast with steel tabs). Heck, are these expensive? I would consider making my own, you have everything at hand and they don't have to be pretty.
My current plan is to weld on some small stainless plates to the hull and then weld the zincs to the stainless. I don't think they are that expensive but we could cast them ourselves. I'm not sure if aluminum are as good a zinc.
SV Seeker I'm not sure either, but it sure is worth looking into to protect the investment. I would also consider the fact that some may get lost so I would have clusters of them instead of a couple big anodes, plus in theory that would provide more surface area which should help in theory, I'm not sure how you'll get the stainless not to rust once it's joined with the steel, as it will get contaminated, brazing?
gushhnet well doh, the anodes are for that purpose. I was just thinking in terms of materials.
SV Seeker The anode material should be different depending on the water salinity. Magnesium is best for fresh water and zinc for salt.
You are trying to neutralize the electrical potential between the different metals, by making a battery with the anodes. If you put too many on, you reverse the process, and start corrosion, in the opposite direction.
I would simply weld an extra plate of steel to the hull for each of the anode mounts, and not use stainless since that is yet another bi-metal junction which would cause corrosion, even though stainless is pretty low on the chart.
They make corrosion sensors that give you an accurate count of your electrical potential, and alert you for eroded anodes and other stray currents.In a steel boat that would be a good idea.
Stuart Warren The stainless give you a place to weld without having to repaint.
I'm sure you already have had comments about properly phasing a drive shaft. But great work and ambition.
hey I have a brand new stainless prop shaft I got for my boat because I thought I had a bent shaft but wasnt,, now I have a 1 1/4 x 63 shaft I have no use for,, im sure its too small for your use but thought I would ask,, if you have any use for it let me know,, its tapered and keyed on one end and keyed on the other,,
infrareddreamz Thanks but I have no need for it. You might want to hang onto it. Never know when you might find a big rock. :)
SV Seeker Good advice!
wouldn't it be easier (and more precise) to mount the pitch controller and the engine on something like adjustment screws? so you can easily balance everything out once it is set up, and you could eliminate vibrations from unbalances that will occure later (because i guess that everything will distort a bit once it will have to take forces)...
+Christopher 051 Certainly in a conventional shaft layout you need to adjust the engine mounts to true up the coupling once the boat has been launched, as the hull inevitably flexes a little from the changing forces (keel hanging down, hull supported by water instead of vice versa). But Doug's got those universal joints and sliding splines in his shaft, so there shouldn't be any need for that.
Keel coolers or inboard heat exchanger? What about transmission coolers? Won't it heat up like a an oven in there?
Skeg cooling and you'll appreciate the warmth when there is ice on the deck.
Depois de ter acompanhado com admiração e entusiasmo, todo o vosso trabalho através dos Videos que vão publicando, não posso deixar de felicita-los pelo grandioso exemplo que têm vindo a dar a todos que apreciam a vossa obra.
Antonio Vitor obrigado
You almost have a shipyard happening there now! Looks like a lot of fun, too bad you are about 2,000 miles away!
Guy came in from Glasglow. That's 4,258 miles away. :)
This is true, plus I could drive all the way as well.....haha
Tail
Shaft loop do you need , a loose bearing type?
Tail Shaft loop? I that the piece of steel that contains the shaft when the u-joint fails?
love engine and box, 1st gear with 700 rpm on that prop should mean in second gear you can water ski hahah, I bet you try second at some stage...
+Marc wire We'll certainly see what 2nd does. It's our backup if 1st gear goes out. :)
Hard to tell, but you want the driveshaft ears inphase with each other. if not, you can get vibration. So when you put the shaft on its spline, ensure the ears are inline. Awesome mounts you made though!
Copy That. Thanks
Huge boat, little engine... I used to run a 55' fishing charter... twin 8.3 Cummins. How fast do you think that single 5.9 is going to push the boat?
Maybe seven knots in flat calm water. It’s definitely not a fishing charter. :-)
@@SVSeeker Do you worry about lack of redundancy? The 5.9 is dead reliable, but if you have a fuel issue... would be good to have some kind of back up. The sails wouldn't be worth much when in the harbour / navigating small water.
getting good at the old navy ladder slide lol
Glad to see boat work being done. Without the boat, nothing else matters.
Are you going dry or wet exhaust?
Have not decided yet.
Enough people in this video its like you're more of a construction foreman than boat builder!
How are you planning on changing the oil in that with it mounted so close to the keel?
There is about 6 inches of clearance under it, but we may still attache a hose to the oil pan so we can simply pump the oil out.
GeorgeGraves I tried that once. It was working, but damn was it slow.
I must commend you on what looks like an interesting build however I would have some concerns that your engine is not big enough for a vessel of that size and weight. I don't mean in terms of horse power but in terms of sheer physical robustness. There is a lot of difference in ability between a 200hp outboard engine, a 200hp truck engine and a 200hp fishing boat engine. Looking at the size of the boat and the amount of steelwork I would probably be wanting something in the 12 litre range regarding size such as a CAT C12 or the identical FPT C12. It may just be the video but your engine looks about half that capacity? I would also fit a marine gearbox. Automotive gearboxes just aren't designed for the duty life of a marine application.
Chris Ryan SV = Sailing Vessel. ...and if you have a Twin Disc you're not using then you're welcome to ship it to me.
lol, I could sell you a new one( www.cryco.co.uk )? Joking aside ebay usually has a few on it. I understand it's a sailing vessel but your still going to need to motor in and out of port and in adverse winds.
I have to say I'm new to your channel but enjoying it. I'm a marine engineer and for a short time I was also a ROV pilot tech so your projects are right up my street.
***** The weight is not really an issure, but I will NEVER own another Cat because they thing their manuals and special tools are made of gold.
+Chris Ryan Indeed, the Allison trans. is the weak link in this picture. The engine however looks like a 6B Cummins used in many tug boats and pushers. It will get the job done.
if you want power on the boat you need to think about a way to use the motor to turn a generator. running on battery's should never be a main source of power
Muff Coupler!?
I'll just stay away from that one.
Big Mike's Hobby Channel The jokes never stop when your fitting a shaft into the muff.
SV Seeker
Will you be installing boat side thrusters? I know it is late now but you still have the thing on Land so :P
No. They are great for boats that live in marinas, but this is not that kind of boat.
Yea you are right.. you have said that many times :-)
did you think to run your engine with gasifier ? :)
Few concerns here. I'm think .005 on run out would be exceptable on the shaft. If your shaft is bent you need to take it out and put it between v blocks to check it and if it is out then heat shrink it with a torch to bring it with in .010 max. should do a final alignment on the shaft and prop control drive on the final install. All this will make it last. It will work like it is, but you need it to last.
Also need to install the yoke's on the drive shaft inline of each other if you didn't know that?
I don't think the transmission is going to like the hours and hours of running in first gear. I could be wrong on that, but a lest make sure the torque convert is got to lock up in first or the transmission will over heat or if you can get rid of the heat, it would be a huge waist of energy.
bigblockcutlass123 The transmission guy I spoke said that trans will lock up in 1st. And thanks for the yoke alignment tip. That makes sense.
SV Seeker Further on the yokes: if the deflection angles of the universals are equal and OPPOSITE (meaning the crankshaft is parallel to the Hundested axis) then the yokes should be inline (in phase), as others have said.
(I think you said deflection angles of 3/4 degree each?)
If the angles are equal and the SAME direction (eg: engine level, driveshaft 3/4 deg down, Hundested 1 1/2 deg down) then the universals should be set at 90 degrees (out of phase).
Great progress, good to see!
Gottenhimfella Got it. thanks
you got anymore of that thick plate you'd be willing to sell? i need about a 4 foot by 8 foot piece.
+Mike G. Rivas I'm down to welding pieces together. Buy the friendly folks at Interstate Steel and Metals will be glad to help you out. Tell them the guy building the big boat sent you.
I was going to make some of the same points as the comments below, so some additional points, vibration dampers,and slosh plates in the oil pan so the engine does not cavitate,a common issue with automotive engines in boats ,I would be interested in a marine engine specialist shimming in on this thread
Thanks CptnUwe
I love a good muff coupler!
Great video how did you decide the size of the engine for the ship
It's a trade off between fuel consumption, speed, power, how much you plan on actually using it, and cost. The values for every persons variables will be different.
It looks like your engine has a turbo with an intercooler. Have you decided how to cool your post turbo air?
InvalidMemberAccount We may draw the fresh air into the engine room over the intercooler or fork out for an air to liquid heat exchanger. That decision is still down the road.
There are people who know the best way to meet your needs. And the best way is the best way.
I didn't see enough video or narration on how you lined up the prop shafts angle with the muff couplers angle . The muff coupler unit didn't appear to have a universal on it , nor any adjustment on the muff coupler units mounting brackets.
I'm sure you know a perfect alignment is needed here to insure long term reliability.
Did I miss something ?
Building that temporary mount was the trick. The muff coupler is ridged so we measured alignment of the shaft with a dial indicator sitting on the shaft log.
SV Seeker ok , I watched the alignment part a few times . I'm still concerned.
My advice...
First, make sure the prop shaft is perfectly straight , if not , make it straight and center the prop shaft perfectly in the shaft log.
Then , make a very snug sleeve ( perfectly straight ) to fit over all the exposed prop shaft with it long enough to go through the center of the entire muff coupler ( all the inners out ) .
Now you can dial in the exact alignment of the muff coupler with the prop shaft.
Bolt down the muff coupler housing. Recheck the alignment buy spinning the prop shaft with the sleeve at both ends of the muff coupler.
I know how to get a perfect alignment, I'm just not sure how to write how to do it .
I'm just concerned that the muff couplers shafts within its housing MUST be perfectly in line with the prop shaft since the muff coupler is rigidly mounted. Any misalignment here is future trouble.
There are probably other ways to do it too .
Please give it the time and effort.
offplanetevent Shaft is straight. The cutlass bearing is not yet set, but ti will be glued in after it's pined in place with set screws while on the shaft.
offplanetevent
If he has to adjust the alignment of the muff coupler, he could make an adapter plate with slots, between the hard mounts and the muff coupler. The mounts themselves probably would not have to move.
Kevin Hornbuckle yeah, he could make the mounting plate with some slots for adjustment , both for angle, parallel alignment and perpendicular alignment (prop shaft with the pitch drive box shaft ) . He may need to use some shims too and hopefully a lock down system once it's been dial in perfectly .
Yes, all this because I have been thinking about thrust force , bearing load and vibration. I Don't think you want any detectable vibration, the prop shaft and the pitch drive box both being rigidly mounted MUST be in perfect alignment to one another on all planes, Every moving part has a frequency vibration due to harmonics, which aids in lubrication . I'm not sure why you think it needs vibration for lubrication.
Engine Room. All Ahead Full!! :P
I see some others have already suggested plumbing an oil drain line, so I don't have to. :D
Personally, I'd think you might want a little more longitudinal reinforcement on the drive box. The hull plates might warp a little under load and pull the shaft out of alignment. But I tend to "over-engineer" stuff anyway. :))
Great progress! I can hardly wait till I can take a few days off & visit again. :D
Hey Jeff. I think we are going to do that with removable tanks. I what to be able to make room around the main engine and keep flexible for installing other equipment. I don't thing and additional framing is needed. It's no more that 2000 pounds of force and that V in the hull along with the bulkheads and keels make that room one of the strongest in the boat.
SV Seeker my proffesional opinion is to re inforce it, you get vibrations in it, so it would be a good thing to do (the heavier and stronger it is , the better!
MrBugsier5 Thanks. So what is your profession?
SV Seeker Building (and repairing) boats! (and everything on board, electronics, diesels generators, propulsion etc etc! (type VRM marine in you tube, one of the video's is the engine of my private tug boat!), like your video's, respect for the way you made your proppeller blades!
MrBugsier5 Cool. I have a 70Hp JohnDeere in a 185chm Sullair air compressor. I'd like have that engine coupled to the compressor pump with a PTO drive shaft so that it can also be coupled to a 30wk generator head. Is that possible?
Really coming along! awesome!
Thanks
Hey don't forget to align the yokes on the drive shaft, looks like you have your spline rotated off a little, if the ends are not aligned you will eat u-joints, common mistake in drive shafts
Thanks
Great video,
Haha, around 11:18 your fingers describing things make that custom drive shaft look like 2" long.
David Finch :)
doug, could i ask what the bhp output of the bus engine is if you know that is and when it was a school bus do you know how many miles per galion it returned. she sure is taking shape now, looking better and better each film that you post. good luck and stay warm.....
Here is what I know: svseeker.com/diesel_engine.htm
SV Seeker thanks doug for the links. i used to work for a company called speedy power here in england which is why i asked about the tanks the other time.i used to make wiring looms and set up building site or events electrical supply solutions etc. when you need help with the electrics and wiring etc shout me up and i will jump strait on a plane to you. also good with hydralics. learnt to weld when i was in the workshop both mig and stick. power supply solotions is my better skills. looking forward to the next film, jakob....
I think the u joints on the drive shaft should be lined up with each other. )====( two piece spline shaft. Having them misaligned will cause vibration. Look at a solid drive shaft the ends are aligned.
tagoooU Thanks
Normally a boat wold have an engine BED installed to spread the load from the drivetrain OUT into the hull to prevent damage to the hull due to vibration and stress from the drive train. In a BOAT the drivetrain never gets to COAST as in a bus the Drivetrain when underway is under LOAD all the time.
Without a bed you put ALL the stress loads on the small welded points on the hull. Eventually it WILL fail at that point and may compromise the hull itself flooding the boat.
AT the LEAST you need to install LARGE PADS welded to the hull THEN weld the mounts to the pads.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
I'm betting I don't, but if we go missing someday you can put forth your theory. :)
Nice, i must point out one thing, you have the cv joint misaligned, its going to vibrate. Just being helpful.
I thought you rebuilt an engine for the vessel
No, I messed with a Ford 7.3 IDI for a submarine. This is a Cummins 5.9. svseeker.com/diesel_engine.htm
Hi Doug I'm going back though the videos. where you are mentioning gear ratios on the Alison transmission you probably don't need to be to concerned. a gear box is a torque multiplier it needed to move a 10 ton bus not a propeller. I think it should run OK in top gear thus reducing the revs of the engine needed to make 700 rpm on the prop. they are normally geared 1to1 or close to in top gear, so making your rpm your prop speed. usually max rpm on a diesel engine is 2200 rpm I doubt you will get 700 on the prop in 1st gear
+simon aldridge Right. It's actually a 3.5:1 reduction in first gear and we want about 300 rpm
Whats the plan for exhaust? Out of the prop? BMP cheech it
xx4x4x4 BMP? Is that a brand? Home boat builders choose between wet or dry exhaust and then build it themselves. :)
+SV Seeker Canadian... Beg my pardon..
Serious achievement there!
Thanks
Doug was there any desire to start the motor up with everything connected to see how well things work? Also did I understand you correctly you'll be doing a dry exhaust ?
Too many other things have to be installed before the engine can turn the prop, so that will wait until final assembly. And yes, I am considering a dry exhaust vented through the aft mizzen mast.
SV Seeker I really like the idea of the exhaust through the mizzen. I can't wait for that one. You can call it ...mizhaust.
offplanetevent
The shaft goes into the muff coupler. You want some vibration. But not too much. If the angle is right, lube happens. Pay attention to thrust.
Kevin Hornbuckle :)
Weird question... what brand of boots do you were?
Whatever is on sale. : )
A lot got accomplished! Where there is a will there is a way is probably an overused cliche', but you epitomize it.
I have been watching with wonder! Good for you go get what you want. You are just getting to the good part putting the spinny parts in. I have read the comments on this vid up until this moment and have just a couple of comments. Sea trials should involve tattle tails like a snug fitting o-ring around the spline on the shaft between trans and the VP box will show deflection in drive line that you can see and measure. some well placed dixie cups with water in them will show vibes in the hull. And a shaft loop is a good idea if the aft u-joint lets go.
Thanks. Good ideas.
SV Seeker Got many more thoughts but you have a confidence I hate to shake. A small story bout me, Former Mk3 USCG and I just kinda know how stuff works. currently a Srvice tech
Mike Purdy sorry did'nt get to finnish. Sevice Tech for hydraulic recycling equipment. Welder fabricator and all around handy kind.
Mike Purdy Welcome. You've got my attention. I routinely consult with a Canadian CG mechanic.
SV Seeker My feet have been on the dry for way too long! Grew up here in the Great Lakes and have kin lost at sea! watching your drive inspires! Thanks!!
Hi - Great work I love seeing the progress. I have a question - Do you plan to add additional framing internally? Seems like very large spans of unsupported steel.
No. I believe the hull to be adequately strong due to it's shape. People are accustomed to seeing hulls constructed on frames. The frames are there to give you some place to put the hull sheeting. Origami does not need that.
SV Seeker I suspected that to be the case. The compound curves are inherently strong themselves. I cant wait to see this thing hit the water.
SV Seeker Doug - I agree the frames are not necessary for hull strength (in terms of coping with the competing forces of displacement and buoyancy)
Some sort of local structure is however (I reckon) absolutely necessary at specific locations, wherever large forces need to be fed into the hull.
You are correct in thinking the propulsion thrust forces are not a biggie, because they are smoothly applied (fluidly coupled) and moderate in amount, even at their peak.
However there are considerable inertial forces caused by the concentrated mass of the main engine, which wants to stay put when a big wave smacks into the quarter and the boat staggers and lurches away from under the engine.
Plus vibrational forces, which more than make up for their small quantity by their prodigious quantity, being applied thousands of times a minute. These can cause cracking in the strongest structure, at the locations where the local stiffness (different from strength) is not up to the task.
Steel is very strong, and rather springy, but mild steel cannot act as a spring indefinitely. Long-span steel bridges invariably crack over time, because it's just too expensive to make them stiff enough. So ... the length of the cracks is carefully monitored: when a crack reaches a certain percentage of the "critical length" for that particular grade of steel, it must be repaired, or it will run away and cause a failure.
A strong crane which (say) can lift 20 tons without a whimper will likely fail around the plates connecting the hydraulic ram to the boom if a load of 5 tons suddenly drops a yard or two, to be arrested by the crane. It may survive one such incident, but it will be condemned and cut up.
It's hard to get unanimity from marine engineers and architects and yards, but I think engine beds is a rare exception. Dispensing with these can REALLY end in tears (both sorts)
Gottenhimfella The nice thing is that it will be easy to monitor and modify if needed. It will be fun to have some strain gauges hooked up to an Arduino to monitor various locations on the boat.
Hope you all put the engine on a rubber mount
Are you going to have a backup or is an out board enough? :))
Yes, Wind and Sails :)
While I know those Allison transmission are solid, I would have looked for a manual transmission. Less complicated.
The drive shaft seems kind of long, unless you were trying to get the engine closer to the midship.
Where is the "stuffing box" ? A certain amount of "leakage" around the stuffing is considered normal and actually help lubricate the stuffing. This means you will ALWAYS have some water in sloshing around down there !
Any "plates" (flooring) over anything in the engine room need to be easily removable. That could mean a small permanent overhead winch on a trolley. Also, if you have to remove the floor in heavy seas, how are you going to stow it ?
Consider using "expanded metal" over rotating parts so you can see if they are spinning properly.
theoldwizard998 Right, moving weight forward and getting more work room behind it. No stuffing box. We have one of those expensive PSS seals. Plan to be able to remove the decking as well as the steel supports for the decking. And we are going to put a porthole in the pilothouse floor that lets us look into the engine room below. The expanded metal over the drive line is a good idea. Thanks
700 rpm for the propellor is very much ! most props run 100 to 120 rpms,
is your prop actually designed to take 700 rpm ?
I just hope that thing will work out fine...
I hope not. It would make life so dull.
Running the diesel at around 2500 rpms? Peek hp is 22-2300 rpm (torque drops dramatically at 2100 rpm), so that gives you a lot of throttle to work with. More progress!
kbbacon Exactly. The VPP should make it easy to keep the engine around 2500 rpm even when motorsailing.
I think the optimal RPM for that engine is 1700. It comes down to fuel efficiency and life of the engine. I guess he could always shift into second gear! Will the tranny need a cooler?
Kevin Hornbuckle I'm wondering how the tranny will hold up?
Kevin Hornbuckle Is it?
DSCKy We'll find out.
I'm a little worried that some people (me included) might confront you on false advertising in this video Doug......
You mentioned muff coupler more than once, AND NOT ONCE DID I SEE ANY BLOODY MUFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You got me all exited mate :(( Hahaha
Couldn't resist I do apologise.
It's all starting to happen mate, engine going in etc etc. It's really starting to resemble a boat now. You must be getting exited, because every video you are so much closer to completion....
ATB
Matt
Matthew Gischus Thanks. It's fun to watch from this side too.
Mounting the engine to the hull like that might not work. Vibration may eventually crack the plate.
+Robert Loblaw You're right. I might not work. Life wouldn't be interesting if everything worked.
Hey Doug I just started watching your Channel today. You're doing a great work, I love it. Just wanted to find out if there are any other engine room videos?
+legendaryWar23 Thanks, and sorry to say, not yet.
14:25 {O_O} bonitas gorras y buena ayuda con los amigos
Daily Llop Gracias
SV Seeker keep up the good work!
Did you make the engine skids out of the bus bumpers?
Yup :)
SV Seeker haha, I thought so! That is awesome material re-purposing. :)
shouldn't there be a bronze bearing where the shaft log enters before the stuffing bow
David Alexander The Hundested VPP control box contains the thrust bearings.
Are you planning to install a generator? Love your videos.
***** Yes. And a compressor, and pump, and washing machine.