Which Quenching Oil is Best for Knives?
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Which oil do you use for which steel? Can you quench too fast? These questions and more answered!
My corresponding article on this subject with more details and discussion: knifesteelnerd...
Knife Engineering book: www.amazon.com...
Knife Steel Nerds Patreon: / knifesteelnerds
Canola vs Mineral Oil study: pure.unibague....
Inconel probe video: • Demonstration of a Coo...
Jominy test video: • Jominy End Quench Test...
Thank you so much for doing actual experiments to document the effectiveness of quench options. I started with canola, as many do, but am now convinced that a proper HT oven and Parks 50 are what I need to get the most out of the 1084 I generally use for knives. Sure, I've made some decent knives without proper soak times and without the proper quenching solution, but I don't want to make knives that are only "decent."
Yes! Yes! Finally a video where someone used a scientific method with charts on hardness of quenching in different media! Thank you so much! I've been looking for someone to do this for ever! I would have myself, but the $$ and not having the time has been an issue. Great work!!
Love that this community has someone like you… as a lover of the scientific model I really appreciate the work you do👍
This. This is the best thing I’ve found in many years of funneling content into my system. The good stuff tends to be much higher preferred -/ this is the GOOD STUFF. THIS IS QUALITY CONTENT. Thoroughly impressed with your amount of knowledge, your scientific approach, and your demeanor. This is really good content and above par for the course. Thank you.
OUTSTANDING! You answered a lot of questions I had and some I didn't know to ask. I have been using Olive oil and it seems to be faster than canola... but I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy parks. Thanks again Larin!
If you going to use olive oil, mix a little salt with it and dip your bread in it, it's good, 😃. Ukrainian friend introduced me to it.
I was curious how soaps would work??? Made of whatever oil, then lye or potassium hydroxide if made from burned wood. Breaking the surface tension of the water. As this fellow said, he's a metallurgist, not a chemist or such.
Which these industrial oils, if some were converted to soap, maybe it could have benefit. 😃, which you have the train of thought to find out. There's books on thermal dynamics and heat transfer. Just mentioning as one day you might stumble across something.
I would love to see what would happen if you floated a gallon of quenching oil on top of water so that when you went to quench you could insert the steel into the oil only part for the first couple of seconds and then push down further to get to the water if it would help achieve a higher hardness as well as maybe prevent some of the issues from the extremely fast quenching of water.
I used to do that, mainly because there was a hole in the roof of my old shed and my quench bucket would get water in it when it rained.
Thank you! The only one explaining this things using science and experimentation... Not just "ive been doing it like this all my life " thanks
Thanks Larrin for your time and for sharing.
Regards
Davy Thomas
I have been doing some research on quench oils, and your video by far has been the most helpful of any information out there. Love the chart of metals to preferred quench types.
Hank you for putting this together. Every knife maker can benefit from your studies
Although I feel way out of my league watching this, I thoroughly enjoy scientific results. Thank you for all you do for the community Dr. Thomas.
Thank you so much for your contribution to the community! 😊
These videos of yours are a pure gold. Thank you.
As someone who is just starting hobby knife making I am sadened to know this about canola. But man is this an extremely informative and well put togther vedeo! Thank you
You answered a question that was asked so many times! I guess quenching oil demand will go up now. 😁 Thanks for this study! 👏
Fantastic video and fantastic work and testing performed! Thank you! Right now I am new to the hobby and have only used 5160 and vegetable oil. I'll be moving to parks 50 soon because I want to use other steels also.
Loved every second!!! Please consider making this a weakly or monthly vid! 🙏
Wow, a credible, unbiased catalog of knife steel with ratings, all in 1 place. Now I won't have to dig up and parse anecdotal information to make decisons!
I am in total agreement that canola is a sub-par quenchant for 1084 (or any fast quenchant steel), but your data seems to indicate that you could only achieve 41 hrc at .003 distance from the surface. This is what is going to set people off and make people question this test. Certainly canola isn't as good, but it can attain higher than 50 hrc on a regular basis. How could it perform so low on your test? It would be interesting to see the left side of that curve from surface hardening all the way to 0.03 depth to see if you're actually attaining the 50 or 55hrc that canola users see when doing tests.
I have no real way of responding to anecdotes about how hard someone else’s 1084 got with the same quenchant. If they overheated the steel it has higher hardenability. If the 1084 had higher Mn it will be harder. If it was thinner than 1/4” it would reach higher hardness, etc, etc. Of course if they aren’t properly checking hardness then the discussion is pointless. I laid out the process I used and this was my result. I can’t change it just because someone is unhappy about it.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Let's be clear, I'm not questioning the use of canola at all, its a poor quenchant, nor am I asking you to change your data. What people are questioning is that it seems to say that at 0.03" depth, the HRC was only 40. I'm asking what it was at the surface. Clearly you can get higher than 40hrc at the surface of 1084 with canola, is it dropping off that fast with depth is the question. If so, this is major new information. Did you gather any data at depths above 0.03 or just what you showed?
@@TyrellKnifeworks im not a knifemaker just like enjoying videos, but could it be because of the surface grinder is heating up the metal, maybe Knife Steel Nerds didnt cool it while surface grinding, again im not a knife maker just asking could it be that
@@sran9492then that would affect all the other samples..
He didn't overheat it like most forging guys.. plus even parks 50 struggled with 1095 and w2. Low temperature austenizing for 20 minutes is a lot different than forge quench at higher temp
I'm relatively new to knife making, I'm not understanding why video creator and you are using the term "overheating" why is there a limit to heating other than melting the carbon steel 1080/1084?
It's my understanding that if you heat up to 1800°F on 3rd cycle you can achieve 62H with Canola oil. Wouldn't it be worth it to have a higher heat treatment temperature if that's required to get a consistent 60+ hardness throughout the blade to the center of a 1/8" blade?
It's worth mentioning (different brands of Canola oil have different viscosity and properties like Gluten Free Non GMO Organic, vs cheap GV brand)
@@mikafoxx2717
Hello; Excellent video. Every knifemaker should at least have your book; I bought it twice (one for on my bookshelf, the other for in the workshop). I mostly use 1.2442 (my favorite steel), 1.2695, niolox and vanax superclean. You can probably tell I'm European and mostly make kitchen knives :D
Absolutely wonderful information as always thank you for all you done for all of us knife makers just starting out your book and videos are absolutely gold in my opinion.
My father was a metallurgist and worked for us steel. Unfortunately, he never talked about his work or his discipline. So I know nothing about this. But I am very interested in axe and knife making procedures and learned a lot from this video. Thanks.
What was his position and in what location did he work?
@@KnifeSteelNerds he started working for Tennessee Coal & Iron in Birmingham Alabama about 1940. When us steel bought this, he was sent to Pittsburg for 1 year. That was about 1950. Then he came back to Birmingham and worked in the tin mill quality control about 25 years. I don’t know his position but he was in management and had to live in the mill when labor went on strike. Funny - I have become a strong labor supporter.
I was so glad and surprised to see you on this platform! Thanks a lot for your work!❤️🖤
Nice job. A cool follow-up video would be interesting to see how some air quenching steels behave in oil versus plates versus still air.
440C quenched in hot 130 F AAA works very good wrapped in its stainless foil wrap. I use AAA for everything except old Nicholson files from garage sales. Those I use 180 F water and push-pull it up and down, do not wave sideways EVER when quenching anything. Unless of course you want a curve in your blade.
I love what you do. I am learning a LOT. Thank you
Thank you! I was just googling this last night! Happy to hear from the expert.👍
In general which is the best oil to get for doing a variety of steel.. I think you should try some of the old quenching methods such as olive oil animal fat coconut oil and a mixture of all of them and maybe even some used vegetable oil from a fryer
You have made something which was really needed and precious. God bless you.
This type of stuff is why I’m going to school to get a degree in metallurgy!
I'm a retired bio/engineer, and you'll have to get an engineering degree 1st. Be sure and research the field you want to go into, the maker of this video works for a steel company doing car skins, this is his hobby lol. He engineered the new stainless cutlery steel CPM Magnacut. Look it up, I believe there are several test videos of it on YT.
You probably just saved my first 1095 knife. I was going to use motor oil.
Do you plan to do any tests of "modified oils" such a cutting AAA with kerosene to speed it up to a fast oil or "super quench" brine etc? Would be great to see some of these things "Mythbusted" thanks for the hard work 👍
Very useful stuff, as always. Thanks for all the work you do!
Fantastic video mate. I’m so glad people like you exist.
Is peanut oil pretty much the same as canola?
Thank you for this. Mental retention is little because of hard tempering of brain, but it's in memory for recollection later, sort of like a primer.
Stunning data presentation. Thank you!
Great vid and that book is amazing, everyone who makes knives should consider giving it a read, IMO.
Breaking canola hearts!
Based on your articles and the video I've now got Parks 50. I would loved to see a brine solution tested as well. I've read some knowledgeable bladesmiths say brine is more controlled that plain water. Perhaps that's the "hard water" you mention? Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Brine is a bit different than hard water. Brine is supposed to help prevent vapor jacket formation for a more even quench. From the perspective of how fast it is brine we might not learn much as I would expect everything to be full hardness just like the plain water. But for making knives if you try it out you will find if you are having issues with warps and cracks.
I tested brine against water, and brine was victorious.
Superb video 👌🏻 Thank you for taking the time to do the leg work and share your results - invaluable to a maker such as myself. Perhaps put a drop of any oil on your evenheat door latch 😂
Thanks, man. You are the best! I have to try to fiddle with sunflower oil. Because it's the most common around here
I learned alot of new stuff form this video, thank you for all the effort!
I would love it if you addressed quenching in blood. I've read a lot of old wives tales and seen a lot of ancient texts about 15th century slave owners plunging hot steel through their slaves in order to quench these 'bloodblades'.
The quench might not be great but the enchantment is legendary.
Love it. Hope you put out more
Mind. Blown. Phenomenal video sir. Thank you much.
Excellent video
Thank you, Larrin. You’re knowledge is incredible and your website is invaluable. I saw your interview at one of the recent blade shows talking about Magnacut. Congratulations! I’ve only been making knives for a year or so and it’s going really well. I hope to get my hands on some Magnacut one day, lol. I would be very interested in you doing hardening tests on some stainless steels. I’m very fond of AEB-L. I usually plate quench and temper around 365 after a LN2 soak, but I’m not sure if that’s the best way. Any advice on that would be greatly appreciated. I’ll sub on patreon and reach out there. Thank you again!
Would love to see a similar video that includes salt bath quenching.......
Larrin, Thank You!
Thoroughly enjoyed you covered all steels I am likely to use thank you
Thank you for sharing this information, and I look forward to reading your book!
Wow, so for our beginner statting out with basic carbon steel, humble water is better than you'd expect.
Man this was great. Unfortunately I've been doing it all wrong apparently lol. Thank you for doing this video! 👊
where dos peanut oil fall on the nickel ball test chart?
What about heating the oils to different tempretures?
I found that at least with canola the oil temp has a very big impact
Did you know that canola has a shelf life so to speak? After being used so many times it breaks down and changes how it quenches. Also you're right on oil temps, canola for 01 steel needs to be 125-130 to work the best, but you might be better off with peanut oil rather than canola, it seems to quench faster.
Is olive oil significantly different than canola oil for hardening?
Thank you so much for this great video
I've heard that many of the old timers use transmission fluid
That would be correct. And Marvel Mystery Oil.
@@therory6888 just saw Kyle Royer using transmission fluid. I might have to give it a go
DUDE! YER FREEKIN AWESOME! Thanks for all you rwork but let me ask a question.....thanks.
I see many smiths full temper a knife then toss it in an oven at 400 for 2 hours. WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE STEEL/ TEMPER???????? Thank you
How tf do y'all only have 5K subscribers?
I have heat-treated thousands of blades that are oil Hardening,most 1/16 th material. A thought which I intend to try is to have 2 quench tanks ,1to emerse for a couple of seconds and the other to cool to handling Temp, I'm curious.
Very useful information. Thank you.
Hey do any of these oils ever expire or become less effective with time or use?
What about peanut oil?
I am quite confused on one part of your video. Namely, the hardness scale chart about 12 minutes in regarding 1084 quenching in canola oil and only getting 41 and lower on the scale. I, an admittedly amateur, am regularly using canola on 1084 and getting somewhere between 60-65 hrc according to my Tsubosan hardness files then tempering down to 55-61 depending on knife purpose. What am I missing in your data set?
Are you quenching 1/4” stock without bevels?
@@KnifeSteelNerdsno but 3/16" knife blanks. Is there that much difference in those? Wow!
What about quenching 1095 in transmission oil.
Thank you so much!
Which oil is fast oil? Can you tell me what type is Engine oil like used in electric transformal?
My wife got so pissed when she couldn't find her canola oil and saw what I did with it. I didn't think that through.
you ever heard of HOUGHTO-QUENCH® K? Apparently (nearly) as good/fast as Parks 50. Reason I ask is that it is avaialble here in Canada in a 5 gallon pail for $225+- plus shipping and sales tax...hard to find many options in small quantities. Thanks.
Could you elaborate slightly on what causes micro cracks? I know normalizing around 1550 (for 1095) gets carbon in solution and around 10 min is what you recommend in your book for a hold time if you’re trying to do it in a forge. What temp/ hold time would create conditions for “too much carbon in solution” and elevate chances of forming micro cracks?
Microcracks happen sometimes with very high carbon martensite called plate martensite. The micro racks can be “repaired” but the main thing is avoiding the plate martensite. It’s not a concern during normalizing since you aren’t quenching to martensite at that point. It’s all about how hot you austenitize before quenching. If you are heat treating in a forge I would probably recommend you avoid 1095 and instead use something like 8670 or 80CrV2 since they are lower carbon and not really in danger of having significant plate martensite.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you so much, I understand now. I greatly appreciate all the work you’ve done. So many of the questions you answer in your book were impossible to get clear answers for in the past. So much of blade smithing is muddled by folk practice and hearsay.
you quench 1084 with water? thought it needs oil?
Noob here. Was wondering which steel tested is closest to 5160? Thank you
I watched a video by Black Beard Projects called "Stainless Steel Heat Treatment: Oil vs. Plate Quench" and in that video he showed a reduced hardness resulted from oil quenching an air quench stainless steel (and warping). I can understand the warping, but why did cooling the knife faster cause it to be SOFTER than the air cooled sample?
Oil quenching doesn’t lead to lower hardness. It would have to be from some other factor like decarb or scale that wasn’t removed, testing hardness on a non-flat section (ie a warp), or just variation in heat treating and hardness testing.
Question : what would be a good steel to try making a knife at home ?
You can choose any steel if you send out for heat treating.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Not in US , I would like to heat treat at home :)
@@dimmacommunication if you have no real equipment, buy some low alloy steel and do it with a DIY forge (firebrick forge)
@@nils-ph3zs Yeah I know man, I was just asking , what are the easiest steels ?
People told me 1095 to start
@@dimmacommunication 1084, 1080, O1 are also good for that
Dr. Thomas, Alpha has the heat treat temp for 80CrV2 at 1545 to 1615 so the middle temp would be 1580 for five minutes and 1/4 thick I would hold for ten mins. They do instruct to quench in oil. Seems hot to me, but your results are not very good with any oil. It is actually more similar to O1 except a little less Carbon and no tungsten, plus it has .25% Silicon and .20% Vanadium.
Watch his video on 80crv2 or look at the article. This guy designs steel and heat treats for a living so whatever his suggestions are, are probably the best you can get. Bonus points for freezer cryo straight out of the quench.
Well now I'm just confused. Not sure exactly what the explanation is but I've done several 1084 and 1075 knives quenched in 140degree canola oil and got WAY higher hardness than your test results. Now, to be clear, I was getting my ROUGH hardness results from the hardness testing files so those certainly aren't exact at all but I was skating the 60-65 file. On top of that, I can certainly tell in use that the knives got way harder than 43 rockwell.
Would this may have something to do with the difference in you quenching a square flat chunk vs me quenching a ground blade?
I have those files too. I just heat treated a ground 1095 knife in motor oil and the 40 rockwell file bit in most of the knife. The tip was harder that 40.. I am getting parks 50 and going to re heat treat the knife.
@@kalblades could use water in the meantime. At worst you get forging practice.
Thanks Larrin! Could you test DOT3 brake fluid as a quenchant? I suspect it to be a fast oil, but I'm not sure.
80crv2 i was told to thermal cycle before hardening
I have a separate video all about thermal cycling
Man, eye opening. Just a home cook that enjoys knives, but love following along. Based on these new experiments, which quenchant would you lean toward for Magna Cut?
MagnaCut has high hardenability so plate quenching is my general recommendation. It is slower than oil, faster than air alone. Helps to maintain flatness.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you kindly Larrin
Has anyone done tests on the soluble oil with different mix ratios , being a thin oil that mixes with water it would have to work similar to a fast quench and no where near the ridiculous prices of parks 50
Hello again Dr Thomas. I caught your recent interview with Blade HQ (Blade Show) and enjoyed what was discussed. Relating to my first question about D2 relating to O2, and A2. Does the "2" in the three steel types derive the same value in all three?
The “2” just means it is the second steel in the group. So the second oil hardening steel (O2), the second die steel (D2), etc. But the order doesn’t mean anything.
Thank you Sir.
Hello. Which one do you recommend for 80Crv2? I don't know English. I use google translation. I will be glad if you answer
Love it.....so much 😁
Where do you think corn oil would come in?
Sorry my english isnt very good, when you said beyond 1/8 inch water hardening did you mean by that thicker or thinner metal 18:00, thanks in advance
Man! Great job!
But.... I just quenched 7 blades of 1095 in Canola =(
Hopefully they were thin enough!
Best to stick to brine water for 1095 and just hope they don't warp.
Great video. Just curious as to whether you heated up the canola oil to 130F or more for the experiment? This is something I have been told to do to get the best results out of canola. Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.
Yes
Hmmm, interesting. I did learn water isn't as bad an idea as I thought.
Try brine.
In my limited experience, water is a better idea with thicker blades- the one blade I successfully water quenched was a .220 80CRV2 blade. I’m ordering some .190 stock in that steel soon though, so we’ll see how that turns out.
Do any knife guys here do a cryogenic quench step?
Wow I guess I need to get parka 50
Ok, so can I quench 1084 in water since it hardened all the way through?
In general knifemakers avoid water because of increased risk of warping and cracking so be wary
I'm no steel engineer I have no idea about this stuff but for funzies would graphite suspended in oil quenching give any variation to the steel? I just want to see if anything added during the quenching prices can yield favorable results
What do you think might happen?
@@KnifeSteelNerds nothing haha I dunno i was wondering if a mixture in the quenching might add more carbon to the steel etc. Was wondering about graphene for a bit and I was confusing graphite like I said I know nothing figured I just ask
@@Therealphantomzero For carbon to diffuse into the steel it requires time and temperature which the oil wouldn’t provide
0:02
Hi Larrin.
This doesn't make any sense, to me at least. Firstly let me thank you for all your diligent experimental work. I commend the way you organized and presented these data. You are a good teacher as well. It was further refreshing to watch you dispel many myths held in knifemaking, like "Parks 50 not being the same as water". But you created some of your own. It seem like you have a bias against canola. Your data and arguments are contradictory. I'm sure you have great insight into this topic but how can you make a blanket recommendation to never use canola when you present a graph that shows 80CrV2 attaining (approximately) 58Rc, followed by 52100 at 62 Rc, 15N20 62Rc, then CruForgeV an excellent, in my humble opinion, of 64Rc? It would seem canola might have a place in the shop. Also I am confused at the Dubois photo showing a price of $131.82 for 5 gallons of oil. Parks 50 on Amazon runs $275.12. BTW canola runs $7.63 for 5 quarts at Costco (about $31for 5 gallon) which would be favorable to beginning amature knifemakers if and only if it were useful for the steel that they were using. Is it possible to cull from your findings that some steels can be quenched in canola oil to obtain a less than optimal yet a useful function? Thanks.
If the as-quenched hardness of the steel is several points lower than a fast oil that means that some pearlite has formed in the steel which is an unfavorable microstructure. It means that strength and toughness are reduced. Canola is only suitable for very high hardenability steels which are generally not being recommended to beginners. Might as well buy an oil designed for quenching.
Amazon is more expensive because it is resellers buying from the source and upcharging. Amazon is not the best place to buy everything.
I bought 5 gallons of quench 50 for $160 shipped from Texas to my door in Ohio. You also have to factor in the life of the oil in that cost. You never know when it’s time to replace your $31 worth of canola oil. Then What do you do with 5 gallons of bad canola oil every time you change it out.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsDefinitely. People see hardness and as a photographer, it's like people saying phone cameras have more megapixels and are better than my proper professional one.. which will out-resolve it at a quarter of the pixels because each one takes in far more light.
90% hardness quenched doesn't mean tougher, it means it was 10% unquenched.
@@mikafoxx2717 I have an article from 2018 where I compared rockwell hardness to megapixels in digital cameras: knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/12/rockwell-hardness/
You gots to use bacon grease
Google reads my thoughts, I was gonna sak about oil in another video and got this suggestion instead. I have tried canola, and it's useless. There is a book on metallurgy by a fellow calling himself Tubal Cain, it's full of bad advice.
There are so many problems with this little study, I don't know where to begin or end. I will try and keep it as brief and polite as possible. A similar and related study was conducted by one of the most reputable authorities in the field of heat treating. His name is George Totten. His results and conclusions are much different than yours. I will post a link to the study at the bottom of my comment for all who are interested. If the question is, "Which quenching oil is best for knives?", I see the oils but where are the knives? The flat square samples you used have nothing in common with blade geometry and blade geometry affects the way the blades cool, different areas of the blade cooling at different rates and different cooling mechanisms with different cooling rates working on different parts of the blade simultaneously during the quench, gets complicated. Obviously, a better approach would have been to use actual knife blades with a variety of thicknesses. Even if you had just used square wedged shaped samples of various thicknesses, you would have gotten more meaningful results, though likely more difficult, requiring perfect shims and many Rockwell tests on each sample. Since thin kitchen knives are the most common and widely used blades, wedged shaped samples or even strips at about 1/16 inch at the thickest would have been a better choice than what you used. Flat 1/4 inch thick samples are a gross overkill and will tell you next to nothing about knife blades. Who knows, maybe if you used 1/16 inch thick by 8 inch long fillet knife blades you may have discovered some other interesting, unexpected phenomenon, possibly varying degrees of warpage. You also assume that the only reason knife makers use canola is that it is cheap, maybe not. Availability of petroleum based fluids in some parts of the world may be very limited or nonexistent. Some knife makers may be looking for a safer more biodegradable alternative to the petroleum fluids. Since canola oil oxidizes and degrades faster than the others it needs to be changed out more frequently. In the long run, it would be more expensive than the others not a cheaper way to go. I suggest you submit your little study to the academic science community for peer review and see how far it gets. You have not put enough thought and effort into it or gathered enough specifically unique information to draw a reasonable conclusion or be taken seriously. Let's not write off canola so fast. There is probably a lot more we could learn about the properties of canola oil and any possible advantages and disadvantages it might have as a quenchant for knife blades, but it would require an opened mind, curiosity, sense of investigation, enthusiasm and a lot more work.
www.researchgate.net/publication/279490405_Vegetable_Oil_Quenchants_Calculation_and_Comparison_of_The_Cooling_Properties_of_a_Series_of_Vegetable_Oils
If it was so good, parks 50 wouldn't exist. Truth is, the stuff didn't harden completely. Even 1/8th inch. His paper didn't actually test real metal and there was no comparison to water or parks 50, notably. Sure canola works for slower steels like O1.
If you browse the forums the resounding advise is to pretty much always use oil, even for water hardening steels. Yet it seems from this video that many steels will never reach full hardness in oil or worse hardly harden at all. Why is there so much momentum against water quenching if this is the case? There are also a lot of thicker knives mass produced which I imagine are oil hardened in industry, are these knives not as hard as advertised?
Obviously a quench oil designed for that purpose was always going to be better than canola oil with the range of steels you used but I can't help look at how canola did with 1\8" and think its not too bad for a beginner using 1084. If you grind or file your bevels from 1\8" stock even if the spine stays close to full thickness, it being a little soft at the spine and where it is thickest doesn't seem too bad. Am i reading it wrong or does it not seem like an OK choice for a beginner using 1084 and just trying to make their first couple of knives?
Being a “little soft” isn’t good if you have an undesirable microstructure. If it was quenched too slowly and has pearlite it’s not going to be as good as it could be. I would tell the beginner to send out for heat treating until he can do it right.
Looks like I'm adding houghtons k quench to the shopping list
Just use brine water and take the risk. If you're just starting out, the first few knives won't be your best. Forge heat treats also won't be the best, even if you know what you're doing, which most barely do.. Get O1 steel instead of 1095 if you want to quench in cheap oil.