Hello, so alot of you guys brought up the reasons on why the ES44C4 and ET44C4 exist, and i'll admit, its quite impressive to say the least. While my opinion on GEVOs is still the same, the C4s are simply "okay".
Cowl Unit Productions, I’m sorry, But I like the look of GE locomotives with Their Cab’s smaller than their hoods. Also, The GE C40-8M is a Good looking locomotive.
@@okipullupon747sp what if the next video is every small diesel locomotive builders like the company that built the ingalls 4-s which was a one of a kind locomotive built by a small company
Hi okay so ATSF and BNSF nerd here: Okay so the ES44C4/ET44C4s were made because BNSF needed fast power for their high priority transcon trains. Its similar to ATSF asking for the B40-8W and GP60M, they wanted a locomotive that can quickly start up and keep the speed and power, while leaving the 6 axle power for other jobs that require all 6 axles. A1A was basically like BNSF asking GE for a 4 axle variant of a ES/ET44. GE, knowing BNSF would be the only customer of the "4 axle" variants, decided to just remove the traction motor from the 2nd set of wheels on the Hi-Ad, hence the A-1-A name. It would've been much cheaper for GE and BNSF instead of trying to make a new frame or trying to fit a GEVO onto a B40/B"44" frame. I hope this clarifies the reasoning for the ES44C4 and ET44C4.
I didn't know that! So, essentially, the ES44C4 and ET44C4 are express-freight versions of the ES44AC and ET44AC. In that way, the A1A-A1A arrangement makes perfect sense! Thanks for the information!
Got to love the Gevo. Here's a fun fact, I got to tour the cab of NS 8100 when it was in Ft Wayne displayed alongside Nkp 765. You also had me laughing super hard. (Edit): I'm surprised that the Gevo, Dash-9, and AC4400CW don't have a... MANDATED PASSENGER VARIANT!
A great sequel to a great video! Can't wait for what this channel has in store in the future. Never knew the transfer engines existed until now. The XP24 looks goofy but a bit like an ALCO. G&R is a nice touch for background music too. Just so happens that Paradise City is also my favorite G&R tune.
Loved the video. Thanks for featuring SP 3100, it’s one of the favorite locomotives to operate at the museum. Rides super smoothly and is wonderful to run. Sometimes just doesn’t like switching though thanks to the couplers being less than cooperative.
Having lived along a CN line in Minnesota for nearly 17 years, it just isn't the same without the BC Rail C40-8Ms around. I can always just imagine them snaking trains through the mighty mountains over in British Columbia.
So the reason for the A-1-A or "C4s" was that GE advertised these locomotives to match or exceed the performance of a C44-9W and ES44DC while using 2 less traction motors and more maintenance friendly AC motors. The cylinders on the truck side frames actually lifts the center axle enough to put all the locomotive's weight on the 4 drive axles and also featured a variable traction control system and this caught the eye of BNSF as they could, in their minds, have an AC traction locomotive for essentially the same price or even a little cheaper than the 6 motor DC counterpart. Unfortunately, this setup was alot better on paper that in real world conditions as these locomotives are prone to wheel slip especially on wet rail! It also didn't help when BNSF started hauling trains that these units really weren't designed for pulling. Most crews have told me that they performed best on high speed intermodal trains that are typically not as heavy as mixed manifest or even heavy unit trains!
Do you know how ge can fix the wheel slipping problem? I’m guessing that weight restrictions are a main reason why they can’t just add more weight to increase grip. Maybe better traction control software?
@@Jeragon186 CSX has a version of the standard ES44AC and ET44AC called ES44AH and ET44AH. These versions have extra weight and software enhancements to improve tractive effort. In the case of the C4s, they already feature similar software for monitoring tractive effort per axle and while adding more weight would slightly improve adhesion, it still wouldn't be enough to overcome being down 2 traction motors! Both the ES44C4 and ET44C4 were originally designed for high speed intermodal service, not for hauling heavy tonnage unit and mixed freight trains. The only real true fix, is to turn the C4s into true 6 motor locomotives. This is probably one reason there's still a good number of Dash 9s and standard 6 motor gevos still hanging around and would also explain why the EMD P4 version never took off either and could also be the reason both the SD75M and SD70MAC have seen a bit of a resurgence as well!
@@Jeragon186 I mean, the only real fix, if we're talking keeping the C4s in their current configuration, and again, this is what I've heard from crews that I've talked to, is adding extra locomotives to these heavy trains. Ironically, most BNSF loaded coal trains here on the Thayer Subdivision operate with a total of 5 locomotives in either a 2×3 or 2×2×1 configuration with ES44AC, AC4400CW, SD70ACe and SD70MACs in charge and can stretch out between 7000-8000 feet in length. The MEMTUL (Memphis, Tennessee to Tulsa, Oklahoma) and MEMKCK (Memphis, Tennessee to Kansas City, Kansas) train often only operate with a total of 3 operable locomotives (any extra locomotives that appear on these trains are usually offline or "boxcared" units) in a 2×1 configuration. Crews have often told me that if they can get 1 to 2 extra locomotives operating on these trains they would be in far better shape or an even better solution is to simply shorten the trains to around 7000-7500 feet in length, basically knocking around 2000 to 2500 feet off of what BNSF tries to currently run with these particular trains which can get as long as 11,000 feet in length.
I didn’t even know the Amtraks are GE locomotive, same thing with the ALCO locomotives. I thought the Amtrak can be their own locomotives, and alco are emd locomotives.
Correction with the U50C: It was aluminum wire that was part of the electrical (fire) issues, the same reasons why we kinda stopped using aluminium wiring in homes because higher resistance, oxidation and loose connections can overheat and start fires and cause electrical hazards. They did this because aluminium is cheaper than copper and lighter.
POV your the person who made the GE Battery 3000 and GE BQ23-7: hm. Lets make a design that’ll cost us SOOOO MUCH money and piss off the railroad community!
Funny!! Thanls for making me laugh along with making some valid points. Battery-powered locomotives as currently designed will never work. Can you imagine how bad a lithium battery fire would be in a major derailment/collision? God help anytone or anything that was close by. I hated the Dash 8 locomotives with the hump above the cab roof. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Try to find one that's still running. Or any Dash 8's for that matter. The only reason the Class ones are rebuilding a few of them out of desperation is because the new Tier-4 compliant engines suck. Bigtime. Looking forward to the Alco/Baldwin/F-M video.
Yeah, I now agree too. Infact I’m more supportive of replacing diesels with hydrogen locomotives and or Nationalizing the America class 1s(except KCS due to its upcoming Canadian Pacific merger) in order to get them to stop cutting corners over profits, and get them to electrify their network so EMD and GE can make electric locomotives for them to use instead of diesels.
No, the problem with the U50C was that they used _aluminum_ wire. Copper is superior, but they were trying to save weight with aluminum windings. The problem is that aluminum wire can experience 'cold flow' aka 'creep' and connections can arc and come loose. That's why aluminum wiring is banned in most construction projects and industrial equipment.
You forget some locomotives: 1.- The GE U36CG (a U36C with steam generator for passenger trains, like the SDP40). 2.- The GE C30-S7R 3.- The GE C30-S7N 4.- The GE C30-S7MP 5.- The GE B23-S7R 6.- The SF30C. 7.- The C30-7A. Greetings from Ciudad Juarez, México.
There is genius afoot here. Genius. I would buy you a drink... one of those flaming drinks, and shout "UP TURBINE" at the top of my lungs. The bouncer would throw me out into the snowbank, shouting never to show my face in there again, and I'd shout back "YOU DON'T EVEN GET IT, DO YOU?"
How could you miss the B30-7A(B)? Growing up with Burlington Northern was weird. Freight B-units and Cascade Green E-9s. Only hope there's picture or video of B30-7A(B)s operating with GP60Bs, just for added sillies.
5:28 Technically you weren't required to include that one, as you claimed to review every diesel, not electrics. Though you did include the steam-turbine electric and gas-turbine-electrics. So basically everything not powered by overhead wires or only built for export.
Someone mentions something Estonian in a video Estonians: E L A G U E E S T I !!!!!! Fun fact, the Estonian C36-7i engines are all compatible with Russian 1520mm gauge.
Indeed! Considering how many locomotives they've manufactured (from the MPxpress commuter-rail locomotives to the low-emissions switchers), I'd say they deserve a video!
@@adillakandi.r well yes, because they were custom ordered BY bnsf. Just because something is successful doesn’t mean everyone has them. That being said, BNSF ordered about 200 or so of these, so it’s safe to say they found them successful. EMD even tried a similar concept afterwards in direct response, with the SD70ACE-P4.
Not every RR needs big beefy tractive effort of 6 axles AC traction engines. That's one of the reasons why BNSF become the largest operator of ES/ET44C4 also SD70ACe-P4/T4. Simmilar performance characteristic compared to the older 6 axles DC traction engines with less component, and as a bonus the idling axle/trailing axle could be lifted so the load can be transferred to the powered axle which equals to better wheel to rail grip/contact.
@@ajidamarjati BNSF mostly use them to be a DPU on intermodal or others manifest train so that's the reason i think since intermodal didnt need a big traction to move
please do an Alco video!....only not so fast, I had to watch the video 4 times to get a good look at some of these gems that were kept in the dark as much as possible lol. thanx dude!
Thanks you were correct on the locomotive cause that locomotive was called Antaibao 3, one of three former Conrail (née Erie Lackawanna) U33C's after recently being rebuilt. These units were sold to Island Creek Coal and rebuilt from January to February 1987 for the Antaibao surface mine, a joint venture with the Chinese government.
Hello, so alot of you guys brought up the reasons on why the ES44C4 and ET44C4 exist, and i'll admit, its quite impressive to say the least. While my opinion on GEVOs is still the same, the C4s are simply "okay".
Isn't 1:33 a steam engine?
@@Mr._funny2006
Yes...
Ge e33
Do a every rr in 10 words
Cowl Unit Productions, I’m sorry, But I like the look of GE locomotives with Their Cab’s smaller than their hoods.
Also, The GE C40-8M is a Good looking locomotive.
ah yes, the three genders: freight, passenger, and new jersey
/Reading or LIRR LOL
4:11 now the pyromaniac variant for just $19.99
Can you do alco next?
5:54
I was thinking the same thing
After this it shall be baldwin.
@@okipullupon747sp what if the next video is every small diesel locomotive builders like the company that built the ingalls 4-s which was a one of a kind locomotive built by a small company
*no*
4:25 mandated new york variant
Hi okay so ATSF and BNSF nerd here:
Okay so the ES44C4/ET44C4s were made because BNSF needed fast power for their high priority transcon trains. Its similar to ATSF asking for the B40-8W and GP60M, they wanted a locomotive that can quickly start up and keep the speed and power, while leaving the 6 axle power for other jobs that require all 6 axles. A1A was basically like BNSF asking GE for a 4 axle variant of a ES/ET44. GE, knowing BNSF would be the only customer of the "4 axle" variants, decided to just remove the traction motor from the 2nd set of wheels on the Hi-Ad, hence the A-1-A name. It would've been much cheaper for GE and BNSF instead of trying to make a new frame or trying to fit a GEVO onto a B40/B"44" frame.
I hope this clarifies the reasoning for the ES44C4 and ET44C4.
I didn't know that! So, essentially, the ES44C4 and ET44C4 are express-freight versions of the ES44AC and ET44AC. In that way, the A1A-A1A arrangement makes perfect sense!
Thanks for the information!
Got to love the Gevo. Here's a fun fact, I got to tour the cab of NS 8100 when it was in Ft Wayne displayed alongside Nkp 765. You also had me laughing super hard.
(Edit): I'm surprised that the Gevo, Dash-9, and AC4400CW don't have a... MANDATED PASSENGER VARIANT!
You forgot the cw60ac
A great sequel to a great video! Can't wait for what this channel has in store in the future. Never knew the transfer engines existed until now. The XP24 looks goofy but a bit like an ALCO. G&R is a nice touch for background music too. Just so happens that Paradise City is also my favorite G&R tune.
5:10 indeed I love these. They’re my favorite locomotives because of their nice and good sounding K5HLs.
2:56
They were using aluminum wiring, not copper. Copper is a way better electrical conductor
I know absolutely nothing about trains, and still laughed my way through this video. Hope more people discover your channel, this sh*t good.
Loved the video. Thanks for featuring SP 3100, it’s one of the favorite locomotives to operate at the museum. Rides super smoothly and is wonderful to run. Sometimes just doesn’t like switching though thanks to the couplers being less than cooperative.
1:42 I have a freaking N-Scale TOY of this...
we must need an ALCO version
Having lived along a CN line in Minnesota for nearly 17 years, it just isn't the same without the BC Rail C40-8Ms around. I can always just imagine them snaking trains through the mighty mountains over in British Columbia.
So the reason for the A-1-A or "C4s" was that GE advertised these locomotives to match or exceed the performance of a C44-9W and ES44DC while using 2 less traction motors and more maintenance friendly AC motors. The cylinders on the truck side frames actually lifts the center axle enough to put all the locomotive's weight on the 4 drive axles and also featured a variable traction control system and this caught the eye of BNSF as they could, in their minds, have an AC traction locomotive for essentially the same price or even a little cheaper than the 6 motor DC counterpart. Unfortunately, this setup was alot better on paper that in real world conditions as these locomotives are prone to wheel slip especially on wet rail! It also didn't help when BNSF started hauling trains that these units really weren't designed for pulling. Most crews have told me that they performed best on high speed intermodal trains that are typically not as heavy as mixed manifest or even heavy unit trains!
Do you know how ge can fix the wheel slipping problem? I’m guessing that weight restrictions are a main reason why they can’t just add more weight to increase grip. Maybe better traction control software?
@@Jeragon186 CSX has a version of the standard ES44AC and ET44AC called ES44AH and ET44AH. These versions have extra weight and software enhancements to improve tractive effort. In the case of the C4s, they already feature similar software for monitoring tractive effort per axle and while adding more weight would slightly improve adhesion, it still wouldn't be enough to overcome being down 2 traction motors! Both the ES44C4 and ET44C4 were originally designed for high speed intermodal service, not for hauling heavy tonnage unit and mixed freight trains. The only real true fix, is to turn the C4s into true 6 motor locomotives. This is probably one reason there's still a good number of Dash 9s and standard 6 motor gevos still hanging around and would also explain why the EMD P4 version never took off either and could also be the reason both the SD75M and SD70MAC have seen a bit of a resurgence as well!
@@randallellison6421 So more wheels = more adhesion is my understanding. What can be down with the ES44C4 keeping with the A1A concept?
@@Jeragon186 I mean, the only real fix, if we're talking keeping the C4s in their current configuration, and again, this is what I've heard from crews that I've talked to, is adding extra locomotives to these heavy trains. Ironically, most BNSF loaded coal trains here on the Thayer Subdivision operate with a total of 5 locomotives in either a 2×3 or 2×2×1 configuration with ES44AC, AC4400CW, SD70ACe and SD70MACs in charge and can stretch out between 7000-8000 feet in length. The MEMTUL (Memphis, Tennessee to Tulsa, Oklahoma) and MEMKCK (Memphis, Tennessee to Kansas City, Kansas) train often only operate with a total of 3 operable locomotives (any extra locomotives that appear on these trains are usually offline or "boxcared" units) in a 2×1 configuration. Crews have often told me that if they can get 1 to 2 extra locomotives operating on these trains they would be in far better shape or an even better solution is to simply shorten the trains to around 7000-7500 feet in length, basically knocking around 2000 to 2500 feet off of what BNSF tries to currently run with these particular trains which can get as long as 11,000 feet in length.
@@randallellison6421 Would this be the same for general manifest trains or even other types of bulk trains IE: grain?
I'll be looking forward to the Alco, Baldwin, and Fairbanks-Morse video.
3:40 that is cool
5:10 These are my fav GEVO's
Mandated passenger variant meme will never end
Do more of these, these are hilarious!
GE DASH -8 IN ONLY 2 WORDS!!
“ EMD KILLER”
KEEP THEM ROLLING BROTHERS!!
👍👍
The GTEL 3 fucking killed me jesus christ
Same
3:29 They may have been an absolute mechanical nightmare, but I will always like them
2:37 *SCREAMS OF HORROR*
0:46 Pet the 20 toner
Manadated *New Jersey* Variant
12/10 best fucking description of the 34
I love how you used paradise city, I really love GNR.
[Sigh] say it with me now.
Mandated. *PASSENGER VARIANT.*
The GE C40-8Ms need some saving. More mandated passenger variants. Cowl Unit Productions, you are so hilarious.
The ES44AC was so good... that everyone got them and now they are the only thing you see...
At CAD Rail in Montreal, the Battery 3000 is sitting on display... stripped. 🤦♂😂
5:18 and 5:24 That's everyone's question
Also 6:08 , pretty sure you meant to say "Don't use aluminum wiring in your locomotives"
I love the 20/23 ton boxcab, it’s adorable.
Indeed, they are adorable! Probably some of the cutest switchers I've heard of yet!
I like your music choices. Guns and roses will always be amazing.
you should make an episode that covers the rebuilds and exports of both emd and ge, we need those here
I didn’t even know the Amtraks are GE locomotive, same thing with the ALCO locomotives. I thought the Amtrak can be their own locomotives, and alco are emd locomotives.
Can you do "what your favorite rail company says about you" next?
Correction with the U50C: It was aluminum wire that was part of the electrical (fire) issues, the same reasons why we kinda stopped using aluminium wiring in homes because higher resistance, oxidation and loose connections can overheat and start fires and cause electrical hazards.
They did this because aluminium is cheaper than copper and lighter.
POV your the person who made the GE Battery 3000 and GE BQ23-7: hm. Lets make a design that’ll cost us SOOOO MUCH money and piss off the railroad community!
2:51 lamo
Holy sh- is so big XD
This is quite a funny video! Thanks for making them!
Mandated passenger variants:
2:20
2:43
3:49
Funny!! Thanls for making me laugh along with making some valid points.
Battery-powered locomotives as currently designed will never work. Can you imagine how bad a lithium battery fire would be in a major derailment/collision? God help anytone or anything that was close by.
I hated the Dash 8 locomotives with the hump above the cab roof. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Try to find one that's still running. Or any Dash 8's for that matter. The only reason the Class ones are rebuilding a few of them out of desperation is because the new Tier-4 compliant engines suck. Bigtime.
Looking forward to the Alco/Baldwin/F-M video.
Me: Why do you hate battery locomotives?
Me after finding out their range sucks: Oh, makes sense now. Do you like Hydrogen locomotives any better?
Because he, along with others believe that the battery is going be a flop.
Yeah, I now agree too. Infact I’m more supportive of replacing diesels with hydrogen locomotives and or Nationalizing the America class 1s(except KCS due to its upcoming Canadian Pacific merger) in order to get them to stop cutting corners over profits, and get them to electrify their network so EMD and GE can make electric locomotives for them to use instead of diesels.
2:27.yup and i like it and i have a model of it.
Wait i f-ed up it was 2:21 ,the u28cg
AC4400CW supremacy
The reason the U50C's were bad was because of the LACK of copper wiring. They used aluminum wiring instead, and that's why it was so bad
No, the problem with the U50C was that they used _aluminum_ wire. Copper is superior, but they were trying to save weight with aluminum windings. The problem is that aluminum wire can experience 'cold flow' aka 'creep' and connections can arc and come loose. That's why aluminum wiring is banned in most construction projects and industrial equipment.
5:10 where did these come from
I love the P32-8BWH and the paint scheme and that's why amtk 160 is my favorite
Indeed! The Pepsi-Cans are a classic!
You forget some locomotives:
1.- The GE U36CG (a U36C with steam generator for passenger trains, like the SDP40).
2.- The GE C30-S7R
3.- The GE C30-S7N
4.- The GE C30-S7MP
5.- The GE B23-S7R
6.- The SF30C.
7.- The C30-7A.
Greetings from Ciudad Juarez, México.
5:17
To fix hunting oscillation.
Why are you actually funny!😂
4:57 MO POWA BABEH
Battery powered trains
Nobody:
Railfans: 🤬
Great way to end the video my guy 🤣
wait, with the U50C, wasn't it ALUMINUM wiring that was the problem and not copper wiring?
Best 6:09 seconds of my life..
You mean, don’t use aluminum wires
1:45 It's wizard time mfs! FIREBALL!!!
It was a hoot!
Also, explain the ET44AC one guys...
There is genius afoot here. Genius. I would buy you a drink... one of those flaming drinks, and shout "UP TURBINE" at the top of my lungs. The bouncer would throw me out into the snowbank, shouting never to show my face in there again, and I'd shout back "YOU DON'T EVEN GET IT, DO YOU?"
The GE U50 is definitely the 3rd favorite Locomotive of mine
2:51 HOLY SHIT ITS SO BIG
5:18 5:24 The mandated bnsf version
How could you miss the B30-7A(B)? Growing up with Burlington Northern was weird. Freight B-units and Cascade Green E-9s.
Only hope there's picture or video of B30-7A(B)s operating with GP60Bs, just for added sillies.
I was wondering if we’d get a GE one! Fantastic 👌🏻👌🏻
1:44 IT'S WIZARD TIME
5:28 Technically you weren't required to include that one, as you claimed to review every diesel, not electrics. Though you did include the steam-turbine electric and gas-turbine-electrics. So basically everything not powered by overhead wires or only built for export.
Someone mentions something Estonian in a video
Estonians:
E L A G U E E S T I !!!!!!
Fun fact, the Estonian C36-7i engines are all compatible with Russian 1520mm gauge.
Too bad we only have 20 of them left, most got scrapped for spare parts for the C30-M's
The lake shore railway museum has a 20/23 ton boxcab locomotive but it's not operational
C36-7(Meanwhile in Estonia)
4:14 PN 8211 in a nutshell before it died XD
Es44s are EVERYWHERE
5:25 These too (GEVO ET44C4)
ES44-Series Of GE Deiseil locomotives
3:39 I literally cried because of how ugly that switcher is. Not ashamed, I think anyone would have that reaction.
THIS DAM COMPANY MADE MY DAM FRIDGE
I loved the video and your channel very good
These are great lol, you should do Alco, FM, and Baldwin at some point too.
Correction it was aluminum wiring in the U50C, they were prone to overheating
"I'm only doing diesel locomotives"
Puts a steam locomotive on the list less than 2 minutes into the video.
Wait, steam locomotive?
@@MackeyBigBoy4014 1:33
GE has easily the strangest designation scheme for its locomotives.
Now we need an mpi (motive power incorporated) one
Indeed! Considering how many locomotives they've manufactured (from the MPxpress commuter-rail locomotives to the low-emissions switchers), I'd say they deserve a video!
Actually the A-1-A gevos are pretty successful. Less axles to power means more power output, meaning better tractive effort.
Pretty successfull inded that only BNSF who bought them in a amount of quantity
@@adillakandi.r well yes, because they were custom ordered BY bnsf. Just because something is successful doesn’t mean everyone has them. That being said, BNSF ordered about 200 or so of these, so it’s safe to say they found them successful. EMD even tried a similar concept afterwards in direct response, with the SD70ACE-P4.
ok cheese man
Not every RR needs big beefy tractive effort of 6 axles AC traction engines. That's one of the reasons why BNSF become the largest operator of ES/ET44C4 also SD70ACe-P4/T4. Simmilar performance characteristic compared to the older 6 axles DC traction engines with less component, and as a bonus the idling axle/trailing axle could be lifted so the load can be transferred to the powered axle which equals to better wheel to rail grip/contact.
@@ajidamarjati BNSF mostly use them to be a DPU on intermodal or others manifest train so that's the reason i think since intermodal didnt need a big traction to move
2:52 that’s what she said
In 2022, The C42-9 looks good in Rock Island paint maroon and yellow
Just what I wanted!
A few universal units are missing
MANDATED PASSENGER VARIANT
You gotta make a video about every American electric unit. Include prototypes aswell, ones that didn't even exist. Just because there aren't alot.
please do an Alco video!....only not so fast, I had to watch the video 4 times to get a good look at some of these gems that were kept in the dark as much as possible lol. thanx dude!
1:45 so true
C36-8 GECX 607 showen, and GECX 609 C39-8CF showen are the same loco she got a upgrade and then a test to run on coal sludge. just something cool
5:27
What's your beef with battery electric engines?
They will be total flops 😭 they lose so much range when towing they shoulda just kept it in R/D
1:53 OERM/SCRM!!!!!!!!!!!! I live 5 minutes away from there!!!!!!!!!!!
YEAH BOI
That mandated NJ Unit hit me hard… CONSIDERING IM FROM NJ
What is that locomotive at 2:37? I’m curious about it
Wild guess but the would be a booster unit of the u33c , don't know much about it.
Thanks you were correct on the locomotive cause that locomotive was called Antaibao 3, one of three former Conrail (née Erie Lackawanna) U33C's after recently being rebuilt. These units were sold to Island Creek Coal and rebuilt from January to February 1987 for the Antaibao surface mine, a joint venture with the Chinese government.