Why Catholics Can’t Reject Vatican II w/ Timothy Gordon
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Today I chat with Tim Gordon about V2 and why Catholics can't actually reject it. We'll also be taking your questions.
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Thanks for watching today and thanks for having me, Matt. You definitely deserve your large audience and I’m glad to see this channel growing. Matt is a good man who seeks the truth. Deus Vult!
First time hearing of you Tim. Forgive my ignorance. But thanks for speaking out.
Timothy, thank you for what you do!!! God bless and keep you.
Tim, if you are looking for a traditional latin mass is south Mississippi in the Biloxi diocese they have one at 12:30 on Sunday at Our Lady of the Gulf. Thank you for speaking truth and sharing with us, God bless you and your family.
@@jaymieshaw9483 thank you!! We have been driving to New Orleans
@@STEPHANIEGORDON1 you are welcome! It's in Bay Saint Louis. It's a beautiful old church right on the beach. They are having mostly low masses right now but my husband told me they are training more alter servers so we can have more high masses.
As someone who has been born and raised Muslim and now thanks to the grace of God is a Catholic it is astounding to me how many Catholics try to defend Islam and pretend we believe in the same God. WE DON’T! And it doesn’t help Muslims at all to say such a thing. It does them a disservice.
Please be honest to Muslims and share the gospel with them. Show them Who Christ is and why He gave His life for them! Please care so much for their souls as to want them in heaven in all eternity worshipping the Holy Trinity.
Only Christ can save, Islam can’t. Telling them we believe in the same God might be fun in this world in which we try to get along and be courteous, but they will not thank you in the next world. Please pray for them and be honest with them, because living in the light of Christ is the best thing that can happen to anyone. Telling them the truth (in a friendly manner) is the most loving thing one can do. Christ told us to share the gospel with every tongue, nation and tribe, let us listen! 🙏🏻
Agree
Unfortunately Vatican II is the one promoting the idea that we all worship the same God. It is a heretical robber council that is promotd by antipopes.
How has your relationship been with your family been since converting to Catholicism?
And I believe that the statement from the V2 about Islam and muslims should be amended to eliminate any confusion.
Also I think this documentary, ruclips.net/video/TIw1OPH6QvM/видео.html ,can be very beneficial for anyone in dialoguoe with a muslim. It pretty much proves islam is false.
And from my understanding Dan Gibbson, the man behind the discovery that all of the earliest mosques point to Petra Jordan, has found the first Kaba in Petra. He will be publishing his work on this finding in spring.
@tom st It's the exact opposite of pride to submit to an ecumenical council, the highest form of the Magisterium. Tell me, do you think Pius X was wrong about Islam as well? Maybe, just maybe, you're wrong about this specific theological issue?
@tom st documents of an ecumenical council don't need to declare themselves infallible. It's already the highest authority there is in the Church, and the fact that the council documents fall short of containing actual error (despite the obviously bad intentions behind some of the bishops, especially the aftermath) is proof of the protection of the Holy Spirit. Accusing people of desperately trying to defend the council just makes you sound schismatic - if the council can be defended, it should be.
Timothy Gordon has been fascinating to watch this past year as somebody who seems obsessively focussed on the truth no matter if it costs his job his reputation his friends. He has been an inspiration
thats what pushed me into buying his rules for retrogrades book. it had been in my cart for ages after watching his channel (i watch it regularly with taylor marshalls channel too). knowing he really is a man of principle put his book to the top end of my purchase list. if you have not read it, its like the sun tzu art of war x aurelius meditiations. catholics and traditionalists need to really start paying attention to the subversion that has been occuring over the centuries. return to tradition, seek out the knowledge of our ancestors.
@@romeisfallingagain got the book as well, and it really is good
@@crusadereducation8545 if you are looking for a short read, Baltasar Gracian - How to use your enemies. he was a 17th century spanish priest. the book will fit very nicely alongside Rules for Retrogrades. I bought the Penguin Classics black edition version for about £2 or £3 i think, so its a cheap read
👍👏
Out of all of our more trad inclined brothers, I really find Tim Gordon most relatable, interesting, and honest/transparent as a truth seeker. Very much agreed.
Deep respect for Timothy Gordon for digging deep into the documents of Vatican II and acknowledging his own surprise. Hardworking and humble ... there's a man on the path of holiness!
Couldn't agree more. I used to have a chip on my shoulder about him and I needed to work on that but I respect the man for learning
Me too. I avoided him for years but this was really balanced. I learned a lot from this video. One day I’ll read all the documents for myself.
@@eoinmcg88 He certainly did.
I see it didn't take long for the nutjobs to make their way into the thread lol
@@justinitsthatguyme010 Yeah nutjobs aka sedes aka PROTESTANTS who just won't admit they're not Catholic.
As a protestant looking in (with a desire to convert), the problem is not the novus ordo in the sense of it being in english, facing the congregation, etc. The problem is that so many of the novus ordo priests and bishops just teach outright heresy at this point, or don't make any kind of effort to protect the truths of the faith. Say the mass in English, thats all well and good- nothing wrong wtih allowing the faithful to understand better what is going on, but it's the watering down of the faith and the continued liturgical abuses that make what is supposed to be a still-reverent mass into a goofy mockery of the mass.
I totally agree with you re: Novus Ordo Masses. I have attended many that are truly faithful to the teaching of the Church and are "holy", and sadly, others that are shockingly heretical and lack any semblance of faith and true worship. (Don't get me started on the awful music in some of them). Language is not necessarily the issue, though I think every Catholic and aspiring Catholic would gain so much by knowing the liturgy in Latin. I'm a convert. I went in with my eyes open, knowing there is a crisis in the Church, but because I had a clear sense of calling to work with those who are committed to purifying the Church from within and restoring her to her true mission. Some of the best Catholics today, and the most devout, are converts, I have found. Go for it! Your insight is needed.🙏
@@RosWeeks Thanks, Rosalind, and God bless you. Id appreciate it if you would pray for me, sister. I desire to convert, despite all of the crisis, but we are protestant and my husband is deeply, deeply opposed to Catholicism and has let me know that conversion could be grounds for separation in his eyes. We have two young children, and as deeply as I desire to enter the church, I know God does not want me to tear my young children's home asunder (my husband is a very loving and devoted faith and husband and provider, this is just the one area on which he is irrationally immoveable due to fear and ignorance of the truths of the Catholic faith). And so, I grow in my Catholic faith in my heart and mind, and pursue Catholic practices in the privacy of my prayer closet (and before the pandemic I occassionaly had the opportunity when alone to attend a mass or adoration, though rarely), but right now I am in a holding place of praying that the Lord might soften my husban'd hearts. Sorry that is so long! But as a convert I am sure you understand my desire to enter the fullness of the faith and receive the sacraments, so your prayers are very much appreciated. God bless you!
@Christine Alyse Thank you, sister!
If any of you don’t have one, I highly recommend getting a missal from before Vatican II. Then compare the modern one in the pew from Vatican II. The Mass has been over simplified to the point where many have no clue what is going on and they just go through the motions.
There are good priests and a few good bishops out there. The Truth is still the Truth even if no one believes it anymore. I believe sometimes God wants to be hidden so only those who truly love him can find him in all the choas of this world. I hope you will find and embrace the Truth.
00:02:02 start & intro
00:03:27 guest Timothy Gordon
00:07:45 Vatican-2 & the "Hermeneutic of Continuity"s
00:10:38 Paul6 quote
00:11:45
00:12:11 Vatican-2 doctrine error
00:47:47 questions
00:47:50 SSPX and Novus Ordo Missae
00:51:31 Pachamama...
00:53:03 ... another council needed?
00:54:41 Michael Lofton on?
00:54:55 New movements?
00:55:21 Magisterial technicalities
00:56:53 Vatican-2 favorites?
01:00:47 t&t
01:06:46 ...devicive? Private vs Public
01:07:50 ...3 more questions
01:11:43 end
.
Thanks
This is really helpful. Thanks.
Wow! So refreshing to see someone seeking truth rather than pursue an agenda. Timothy Gordon won me over today!
@Mr Joy I just meant generally speaking these days, most people seem to be pursuing an agenda rather than seeking truth.
The agenda of Vatican II means the lose of souls. Not the salvation of souls especially if they're not practicing Catholics.
Peace ✌️ out 👍
Tim won me over too
You go Tim...God Bless You and Yours..
@Mr Joy That's begging the question and exactly what Tim was telling you is NOT the case, as he discovered while researching for his book.
Just loved this interview, really! I used to listen to TnT and was very sad by their decision to split-up. But, man... this discussion was awesome. Timothy showed so much care to be fair to any criticism he finds reasonable and to point out in a honest manner what he discovered to be a misleading message.
It was Thomistic. Truth has no fear of other points of view.
TNT was awesome tho
I would really love for TnT to come back.
Same here
@@workin4alivin585 If one is Thomistic, one must reject Vatican II. The periti of Vatican II llike Hans Kunng, Karl Rahner, Yves Congar, Dominique Chenu, to mention a few are imbued not with the philosophy of St. Thomas but that of Immanuel Kant. Thomistic philosophy is absolutely objective, Kantian philosophy is subjective. Transubstantiation is of Thomistic philosophy. The emphasis in Kant is a de-emphasis of the Holy Eucharist such that the Novus Ordo mass is degraded into just a memorial celebration much like that of the Protestant or Lutheran mass. Nope, to be Catholic is to reject Vatican II.
This was a very good show. Matt thank you for having the insight of having someone like Tim Gordon on the show. You’re right someone from Catholic answers would have not reached me the same way. But having Tim on defending 2VC docs was a great idea because I was struggling with this Question for some time. Thank you
Ditto. You know he's on to something when he's getting attacks from both camps of faithful Catholics.
My biggest criticism of Vatican II, as a council not necessarily the documents themselves, is that the Church has appeared to have capitulated to the culture.
Pope St. Pius X has declared modernism 'the synthesis of all heresies' and yet the council was concerned about the needs of "modern man", as if man is any different from when he was ejected from the Garden of Eden.
@General Reinhard Gehlen start using the catechism of the catholic church instead of a concordance. Christ was not being racist when he rebuked them and brood is a possible translation. When Martin Luther changed the Bible to force it to line up with his theology there were an insane amount of translation errors not to mention straight up removing things he didn't like and wanted to remove a significant more but was resisted by the other schismatics
@General Reinhard Gehlen the truth already set me free. I gave up being my own authority and have submitted to the authority Christ left on earth
@General Reinhard Gehlen you are a pompous arrogant hypocrite, I do not claim any superiority over anyone else because as a Christian I am aware of my own inadequacy and have no issue admitting so.. In this day and age anyone can translate the Greek manuscripts and see that what your promoting is false. You are no where close to Cardinal Vigano. May God have mercy on your soul for the lies which you hold in your heart.
Matt Fradd, you really have been helping to do the Lord's work with these last few intervIews, Dr.Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin and now Timothy Gordon's espescially are giving much needed attention and even being a balm for the wounds and woes of the Church (espescially the online aspects).
Thank you and God bless you, brother. Amen.
He does it for the money.
We finally have a proper bridge that fills the gap between VII and Trads. Thanks Matt and Tim! This video literally gives the first step in the right direction for Catholics to move forward together.
@@ACF1901 many Protestants would say the same thing about Trent. Schismatics will be and always have been schismatics
@Ben Thiemann
“[The Council] has invested its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium, which ordinary magisterium is so obviously authentic that it must be accepted with docility and sincerity by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council as expressed in the nature and aims of the individual documents.”
- Pope St. Paul VI
Infallible or not, it is still binding upon the faithful.
@Ben Thiemann really not sure what your point is here sir
@Ben Thiemann a deference to the authority of the magisterium of the church is required, whether the teachings are infallible or not.
To ignore, disparage, or reject Vatican II is to call into question the living teaching authority of the Church itself, which was given by Christ (CCC 874) and is accomplished in the Holy Spirit (CCC 78). It is to place oneself in a dangerous spiritual attitude with respect to “the fullness of the means of salvation” (CCC 824)-the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church-by setting oneself above its Magisterium as judge.
@Ben Thiemann I see your point. Well spoken. I think the big difference here is to note that doctrine, unlike dogma, is a living and breathing thing. If we find that doctrine has shifted over the years, we should not be alarmed, but understand that the true and Christ-ordained church is here with us now. We should defer to the authority of their teaching, unless there is something gravely evil in what we are being told to do.
I think you guys should do this often😁 Its so authentic and really feels like your having Pints together, Love love love this!
Important distinction: Vatican II was intentionally ambiguous. The authors of the documents admit this. Previous Church documents were not ambiguous by intentional design. When found to be ambiguous, previous documents were further clarified as the intent was doctrinal clarity rather than ambiguity.
Ummm....... *"intentionally ambiguous" EXACTLY!!* .......securing "plausible deniability" it would appear!!
Well we all know why it is intentionally ambiguous. Just as the “lawyers” and “politicians” of today are purposely ambiguous so that they can interpret the law however they see fit - to fit their own agenda and oppose their opposition without any pushback. It’s much easier to upend a system when the foundation is rotted to begin with.
Yay! I just watched Matt and Tim on PwA from a year ago and enjoyed it so much! Glad Tim is back for a return engagement!
Thank you for this! I watched Taylor Marshall’s video about Vatican II and it distressed me greatly. I searched and could not find any Catholic voices that I trusted that were willing to even interact with Marshall and his read criticisms of Vatican II. Thank you Matt for being willing to engage with these topics.
@@ACF1901 then why won’t Taylor Marshall debate him?
@@ACF1901 I vehemently disagree. I am sympathetic to Marshall and a debate between him and Tim would be incredibly beneficial to me personally at least
He would have I think, If Tim and David didn’t attack him over his communion at an sspx post.
@@ACF1901 No one needs a theology degree to master and understand a subject.
@@ACF1901 With postgraduate degrees JD (ROME), Phl and MA.
Thank you both!!! This made so much sense. The Holy Spirit guides The Bride of Christ, the Church, in spite of us!! You two are smart, holy and funny. God reward you!!
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with her”
-Pope Eugene IV
BUT, do we cease to "exist" after we stop breathing? No. To wit...
Jesus told St. Faustina about the final moment of Mercy, that He would meet each soul at the bridge between life and death and each will be given a chance to choose Him or reject Him. Souls, though not within The Catholic Church during their earthly life, who lived according to God's Laws of Love will be open to The Truth and are more likely to embrace Jesus/His Church. We do not know the reasons souls do not come into The Church during their earthly life. We don't know their culpability. And frankly, if every Catholic actually lived the Faith, we couldn't keep most people out. Our personal and corporate sin is an enormous roadblock to Catholics and non-Catholics alike. Mea culpa.
@@rabbisoros7811 Well, the most literal interpretation of that was not the teaching of the Church in 1950. Invincible ignorance explains which Dante had a Limbo to provide a place for the Good pagans. and purgatory for the great bulk of us. What is tragic is that we have too many funerals where the eulogy supports the notion that few of us deserve purgatory or almost none of us hell.
@@workin4alivin585 lol don’t shoot the messenger
which is a completely heretical idea
Great interview and content! I'm in awe of Tim's mind. He demands the rest of us step up. Great teacher. Good man.
He's a fraud. He made false statements.
Thank you, Tim. I was very polarized by you and Marshall, and ate up your content together for a long time. It eventually became exhasuting and I grew discouraged by constantly looking over my own shoulder for corruption and liberalism. Priests who were good and true, who were faithful and rigorous, became sad and pathetic because they were Novus Ordo priests, and same with those who attended the Novus Ordo. In reality they are incredible, humble and obedient priests. It has been so much better for my private prayer and devotions to give up this paranoia and just trust the Church and simply get to a reverent mass with good priests. We deal with so much in our lives as it is; it's not easy to try to take on all the insanity happening in the Church, too. Even if that's how the corrupt bishops like it. I need to care for my own soul and guard against all kinds of poison, but pride is a soul-killer. It blinds us. I've seen many poisoned by it, skipping mass on Sundays because they cannot get to a Latin mass and making harsh judgements about honest priests. Things they would have never imagined doing before the radical traditionalist movement.
Same here, Jeffrey!
Nah, the Pope and Bishops in Rome are intentionally killing the TLM. Won’t be long until NO is only mass. You must submit to the Pope. That’s why I’m Orthodox, not Catholic.
Nah, the Pope and Bishops in Rome are intentionally killing the TLM. Won’t be long until NO is only mass. You must submit to the Pope. That’s why I’m Orthodox, not Catholic.
Over recent years, I’m beginning to better understand why nations strongly punished blasphemies heresies and subversiveness. It really is mind blowing how damaging it is when someone causes trouble with respect to standards and order
Wow. Very insightful. I learned that many of my hangups on V2 are actually wrong. It's important that we research and verify before buying into something, which was definitely my case. Will be reading the docs for myself...
@@ACF1901 I said reading them (so I know what they say), I didn't say interpreting them for myself...
This was so helpful for me, a newly confirmed Catholic who was feeling so much confusion about Vatican II. Tim did an excellent job.
Unfortunately he didn’t and he is representing many things in a false way. Please read the syllabus of errors and for example ‘letter to confused Catholics’ through this link: www.sspxasia.com/Documents/index.htm
I admit that I know nothing when it comes to this topic. I was born and raised in the NO (b. 1976) and still attend because it’s all I know. I never even knew there was a different type of Mass to attend because of lack of exposure and as a child seeing women with veils didn’t mean anything to me. I go to Mass to be with Jesus and to help me remember to me grateful for all that God has given me in my life of making bad choices. Now with 4 children (one being 20) I know I haven’t learned my faith properly and I am trying to learn the truth so I watch Catholic channels like this one and the like along with SSPX, Queen of Peace Media and EWTN (Mother Angelica and Fr Mitch) so I can get an explanation that I understand. So many of the documents of the church and comments here go right over my head. I appreciate Matt and Tim because I can understand and practically change my life.
Same age. I, too, grew up in the NO, but at least when I was young, we had older priests and would still implement some traditional aspects of the Mass, like the Kyrie and chant the Our Father. But then we got a new pastor.... oh goodness. I remember he handed out a paper to all of the parishioners with “100 names for God” and one of the “names” was “trickster.” I remember my mom being really angry and saying “That’s a name for the Devil!” I also had a seventh grade teacher- in a Catholic school- tell us that no one knew what was going on in the Mass when it was in Latin and the priest wasn’t facing the people. Again, my mom got angry and said, “That’s not true! We all had books with the Latin on the side and English on the other. We knew what was going on.” Now I’m so happy to belong to a TLM parish with solid priests.
Dr. Taylor Marshall yes is a faithful Catholic, love him, but he is also a "guys guy", and we need to pray for the Holy Ghost to grant him the virtue of humility. We all are sinful humans trying to get Our Lords approval. Still, now more than ever we Catholics need to put on our spiritual armour and not only fight against Satan, and his angels, but support one another through this battle. We are all brothers, and sisters in Christ!
Hail Mary Full of Grace.
"guys guy"? Elaborate please?
@@tenebrisnubes masculine, patriotic, alpha male. Not a bad thing, just tried putting it lightly, but since an elaboration is needed amongst the American born public to comprehend what I meant, then there it is.
@Lex Orandi I'd rather be dead then consider myself a feminist. Again, another troll looking for self recognition, not even knowing what you're talking about. Is this the biggest problem today? The self pretentious, needing a medal of approval for calling one out?
Tim Gordon rubs me the wrong way (don't like his views on women working, his tough machismo image, etc.) but his intellect relative to Taylor Marshall is like the sun to the moon. He is so smart, and I wish he always presented himself this way. He should be taken seriously. He has a lot of great things to say.
What are his views on women working? It is my understanding he does not thing they should at least if they are married but the popes of the past have shared this same view.
@@username1172 Women cant work if they're married? What?
@@blondetapperware8289 that’s what he says!
@@CDKV bruh
Thank you for your clarity and insight Timothy Gordon! Then Matt, always great work! Keep it up!
When I was a seminarian, I vastly struggled with liturgical purity and flawlessness. But it occurred to me that the first and highest Mass was conducted on a Cross, by an unclothed Man, Who is also God, with people there who were blaspheming Him, and countless other awful things going on. And I was struck to the heart by Jesus' response to the Greeks who approach Him through His Apostles in John 17. Jesus says "What shall I pray, 'Father save me from this hour?' But it is for this hour that I have come.... Father, glorify Your Name!" The Father responds, "I have glorified It, and will glorify It again!" I think that's a really important sentiment to keep ahead of ourselves when we're tempted to say that because this Mass is done so poorly it's bad in and of itself. But I don't think that can be justified. It's good precisely because Christ is there, and wants to be there, and invites you to be there. Despite the problems, which should be corrected, it is very good. Hope that helps!
Christ's presence is always good, but I would disagree that it doesn't matter how Mass is done or whether it's TLM or NO. Have you read the Ottaviani Intervention? It is a theological critique of the NO prior to it's promulgation. I found it very insightful.
Johnathan Blauw Great. Become a Protestant, since you seem to have exactly their mindset. Why? Vatican II.
The priest presides over a memorial supper.
that is a direct quote from the general instruction of the new mass promulgated by pope paul VI. That is the same as what calvin taught
@@lemonvariable72 that is not a direct quote. You are either mistaken or being dishonest.
This is the direct quote:
“At Mass or the Lord’s Supper the People of God is called together, with a Priest presiding and acting in the person of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord or Eucharistic Sacrifice.”
@@eamonob84 Citation?
Man, I miss TNT. Would never miss an episode.
For a simple layman like me, it comes down to the NO mass and the latin mass. Hands down the Latin mass is superior in every way.
And Tim and I would both agree with you, yet we defend Vatican II. The whole point is, a lot of things that came after Vatican II were not based on the Council. I attend the Latin Mass every Sunday at my parish.
I got into a debate about this with a priest and he tried telling me we all prefer certain liturgies based on what insecurities they soothe and I need to examine what insecurities I soothe by attending the TLM. Facepalm. Lol
@@ACF1901 by allowing the Average person to understand what’s being said? That’s ridiculous.
@@saintsm well said! While the Latin mass is beautiful, it’s ridiculous to just say the Latin mass is the only right way of worship.
To those so-called traditionalist Catholics, how about all other rites of worship? What about in the early church? What about in the eastern churches?
You guys r just wrong.
NO Mass vs Latin Mass is a false dichotomy. The official language of the liturgy of the Ordinary Form is Latin. I often attend an Ordinary Form Mass in Latin. It's very beautiful
I believe Tim to be a person of good will and really after finding the Truth. I appreciate hearing his point of view even if they differ from my own by some degree. What a confusing time for Catholics and the Church, but keeping the dialogue open about these topics is very important.
Such clarity in speaking and understanding from Tim. Love it!
Man, I enjoyed this conversation. I was in RCIA during the TNT days. I naïvely brought up the V2, TLM vs NO question (thinking all Catholics were traditionalists because so much of my conversion came from traditionalist youtubers, ie Matt, Scott Hann, Tim, Taylor, Fr Goring) and was quite literally hissed at. I couldn't belive the reaction I got. I couldn't even get my question out fully, at the mention of the TLM and the word "Novus Ordo" the room went into an uproar. I'm still at this Parrish, but searching for a more orthodox parish, the casual litergy, James Martin book clubs and "race and privilege" classes and homelies are too much to bare any longer. I've been to one TLM mass, and could not believe the contrast. One is decidedly more orthodox than the other.
@@ACF1901 ^ ok do NOT listen to this guy. Prime example why you should be weary of attending SSPX, because you might turn out sounding like this guy
@JennBull02, really sorry but not surprised this was the reaction you got. RCIA ia largely in an abysmal state, has been for sometime. keep hitting that TLM, and look for others in your area. That NO parrish sounds particularly poisonous. Not all of them are, but that one certainly does. Welcome to the fold!
@@ACF1901 Sedevecantism denies basic ecclesiology and falls into the same error of Martin Luther
@@ACF1901 you’re a Protestant wolf in traditional Catholic sheep’s clothing.
@@ACF1901 The ordinations are indeed valid as all the sacraments of the NO. Because of the authority of Christ who said He would be with the Church until the end of time!!! God does not force priests and bishops to do the right things with the liturgy. The NO is definitely filled with distractions, the conscience ignoring of Jesus' Real Presence many times during the Mass, and is malforming, but Christ is still present.
the title should have been 'why Catholics MUST reject Vatican II'
With all due respect...in an unprecedented fashion, we have too many laymen doing commentary on church teaching. This practice was always frowned upon by the church, until recently. Unfortunately because of the gaping wound left by V2, malformed (and possibly) invalid priests perform these duties sloppily or fail to triage the body of Christ. Ergo this episode and many of the same vein. If you want an excellent understanding of some of the heresies of V2 may I suggest listening to Fr. Gregory Hesse (now deceased). He was a Canon Lawyer and former assistant to Cardinal Stickler. He was an excellent teacher and gives you Thomistic tools with which to evaluate ecclesiastical arguments. Despite my opinions, I do appreciate you, Mr. Gordon, for your service to the faith and I do enjoy your commentary. May God bless you and your family!
Vatican II callee for laypeople to get more involved in the church.
@@naturegrace7134 and now ‘Susan of the Parish’ runs the show.
Depends on the standard of the commentary, this is good and in some ways important, in some ways it’s simply evangelisation for Catholics (who clearly need it). I can’t see how it is wrong or imprudent, it was one of the main reasons for V2, clericalism had become a significant problem, you can see this in places like Ireland which are now almost devoid of Catholicism. The fact is, apart from one or two notable clerical exceptions, this is some of the only basic (intro) level evangelism available for our day. If lay Catholics abdicate this responsibility it is clear the clergy will not do a thing, the level coming from the pulpit is leaving many people with no understanding or more commonly a perverse understanding of their religion. It certainly leaves them wanting to avoid the Church completely and his is clear from the studies looking at this. In this environment lay Catholics are left with the responsibility of stepping up to give reasons for their faith, as the Church has been leaving its young people and families stranded. It would be highly imprudent to simply leave this to the priests who are either unformed as you point out, or ‘heretics’ in the truest sense. A high standard also needs to be set which is partly what is being shown here.
Fr Hesse was instrumental to me while I was attending college. However (there is always a however lol) I don’t find him that helpful anymore. He is excellent at explaining the church’s teaching, and is quite good at pinning it against multiple parts of the V2 documents. But as with everyone with a massive bone to pick with V2, there is little effort to understand those problematic quotes in light of greater context, prior passages, and other interpretive guides. That is partly why I loved him, because I found it much easier to have an opinion on the council since it was so easy to condemn. He is also very forceful and sees everything “simply”- reductionism which is pretty unhelpful in our times
Canon 1013 of the 1917 Code: "The primary end of marriage is the procreation and upbringing of children."
You wouldn't know this from reading this: "ENCYCLICAL LETTER HUMANAE VITAE OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF PAUL VI TO HIS VENERABLE BROTHERS THE PATRIARCHS, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE, TO THE CLERGY AND FAITHFUL OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC WORLD, AND TO ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL, ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH
Honored Brothers and Dear Sons,
Health and Apostolic Benediction.
The transmission of human life is *a* most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God the Creator. It has always been a source of great joy to them, even though it sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships. ..."
Notice the "a"... in "The transmission of human life is *a* most serious role"... like there are other equally serious rolls.
@@amascia8327 Uh yeah?
Raising the children?
Educating the children?
Just being a parent in general?
xD?
Primary doesn’t mean SOLE end. I would even say that the primary end of marriage is to reflect the image of God as male and female.
@@michaeldonohue8870 Well, you can't do any of those until they exist, eh. Let me correct the original for you so it's clearer: The transmission of human life is the most serious roll... "the" not "a". Does that help?
Neighther Vatican II, nor Humanae Vitae contradict this.
Definitely buying Timothy's infiltration book when it comes out
Likewise. I find myself aligning more with Dr. Marshall, but I'd love to read Tim's book to see what else he has to say.
Specifically I'm curious to see him address Nostra aetate.
As someone who has also gone far down this rabbit-hole and has also been deeply affected by the consequences of the subject, I firmly agree with Tim. It truly amazes me to have seen, and unfortunately experienced, the numerous parallels between the spirit of the protestant deformation and that of the SSPX rebel protestant mindset. Add to that the chaos of our demon ruled age, the false evil spirit of the Second Vatican Council, Fatima, and the actual Second Vatican Council and one can’t help but see the influence of the evil one prying to tear the Church apart further. If Catholics knew and remained close to Tradition and the promises of Christ they would realize that to be a “traditional Catholic” means to cling ever more tightly to Holy Mother Church, strive for sainthood, and fight the forces of evil both within and external to the Church.
@@ACF1901 thanks for giving a fine example of what I said above. It would be comical if the implications weren’t so grave.
Same. I have Marshall’s. I read it once through. If I buy Timothy’s then I’m reading it again to see which one I agree with more.
Great interview. I laughed and learned. Good combo. Also, as always, 3 Hail Marys for each of you 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻📿
Remember: When Vatican I was in session, St. Anthony Mary Claret had a heart attack - because, he said, so many heresies were being uttered on the Council floor by bishops while in session (16:54)
Couple of things: 1) 21:15 Abp Vigano is right about the heresy of error regarding "the diversity of religions" contained in Vatican II, and the Syllabus of Errors confirms it, on grounds that it contradicts Church dogma ~ "there is one religion ordained by God". As Tim gives example to in Dignitatis Humanae at 26:08 with Rome allowing worship in various Temples... Vigano states the same diversity led to pachamama being placed squarely on the Tomb of St. Peter. Afterwards, Francis himself alludes that Vatican II calls for much more "diversity of religions" than has even been witnessed yet (so hold onto your britches)
. No one suggests forcing people to convert to Catholicism. Everyone already has freedom, but that also doesn't mean that (Catholics) are forced to invite demons into the Church.
2)
33:25 Re Pius X Catechism vs Nostrae Aetete (#12) ~ seems you left something out, Tim. Your observation is made under the question of "who are infidels":
St. Pius X Catechism refers to the Mohammedans as "infidels"
Quote:
"Who are infidels?
Though 'admitting' one true God (Tim's observation), they (Muslims) do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as yet to come, for instance, the Mohammedans and the like (are infidels)"
The Pius X Catechism literally calls Muslims infidels for not believing in the one true God, because of their rejection of Christ. They believe in God the Father, but not in God the Son and hence, are infidels. The title to your question is: "Who are infidels" and it's answered at the end, in the last sentence ~ "Mohammedans & the like"
Great show ~ all the same, I think I will keep embracing the same Catechism that my father taught to me, and I will continue teaching to my children: the Council of Trent is still valid after all this time... Ave Maria!
Hi Patrick, I think we see it the same way. A couple of times Tim makes reference to Moslems worshipping the same God. I honestly don't see it. I don't have the knowledge of church documents that you have but would you say the the RCC is opposed to the idea that the Muslims have the same God? I mean, if it's the same God then why bother becoming Catholic? One can play the game that the ecumenicals play or the New Age movement of the 1970s that said, "They are all pathways to God."
@@npickard4218 Tim basically takes the question out of context, when ceding the phrase, "they admit to 'one true God." The question posed is actually derived from the subject: "who is an infidel?" According to the Catechism of Pius X ~ Muslims "and the like" are infidels for refusing Christ (God the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost).
Two other issues with Vatican II regarding dialogue & ecumenism: "is there more than one way (other than Christ) to salvation?" Catholic dogma says no: "I am the way, the truth & the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Another main concern with V2 is ~ does "God will a plurality of religions" ~ big time against Church dogma. Christ (God incarnate) ordained only one Church on planet earth. Only one religion. One way "to the Father." Not others, nor their "ways"
@@SwiftRead Patrick, thank you for that response, it makes complete sense. I cut and paste it into a page of notes for the future. lol I read Tim's book Rules for Retrogrades and I have his book Catholic Republic, though I haven't read it yet. I lost a bit of respect for Tim since he gives credence to that "same God" idea. I like Taylor Marshall the best, he draws lines in the sand and doesn't retreat. I am Jewish and am interested in converting to traditional Catholicism, what the Novus Ordo and V2 has to offer is of no interest to me whatsoever. What TM has to offer is "red meat." Why would a person leave any religion for Catholicism if we are to believe that there are various, legitimate paths to God? That's rhetorical of course. We've all heard the phrase, "There is no salvation outside of the Church." The exclusivity of the RCC is the reason for looking into it and joining "the club."
Psychologically, a person wants to join a winning club. Nobody ever joined a group that announces, 'well, we're not that different from any other group, we're just as good as all others.' That line wouldn't even sell sneakers at the mall. It's obvious to me that Pope Francis has no business or marketing skills whatsoever. If he wants his Church to flourish or even to regain the respect it once had, he needs to frame it as EXCEPTIONAL, with a SINGULAR body of knowledge that no other religion has, and an EXCLUSIVE route to heaven given that the member follows the rules and guidelines. It appears as though he is intentionally running the Church into the ground in order to gain some sort of socialist 'equality of outcome' in comparison to other faiths.
It comes as no surprise to me that Catholics in Brazil are leaving the Church in record numbers and joining Protestant break off churches and RCC dioceses in America are folding due to lack of membership as their congregants are leaving the mother Church and joining protestant ones. My brother-in-law is an Irish Catholic and he left his parish and now attends a non-denominational church. He says that the church is filled with disaffected Catholics. Whatever Novus Ordo is, and I watch all the videos published by trads, it is a failure. People like Tim Gordon can speak for hours about arcane facts relating this or that church document and it's clear that he enjoys that level of mental abstraction. But here on the ground, if Novus Ordo were a business plan, the company would never get off the ground. It wouldn't even pass the demographic tests for potential viability. As for me, I'm learning the prayers in Latin, the TLM services are filled with people and bursting with energy. :-)
@@npickard4218 Even Muslims themselves state unequivocally that they don’t worship the same god. Many imams have found it laughable. Of course they don’t. They worship a capricious god who does whatever he feels like; changes his mind and contradicts himself. We worship (sing with the Jews) a Covenantal God. There’s no comparison. Again, one only has to read what St. Thomas Aquinas and other great saints have written about the Mohammedans.
@@RandDguy I agree 100%. Seems like Timothy is moving over to the Pope Francis "let's squish all religions together" position. :-(
Tim, I feel like you are misrepresenting quite a few things. At first I thought you had changed my mind on the bad portions of the documents from VII but the most basic research revealed the Pius XI quote you used from Mit Brennender Sorge is clearly him referencing that Catholics where being persecuted by the Nazis and not being allowed to teach their children. The Pope Pius IX quote from the Syllabus of Errors you used still seems to be entirely contradicted in portions of Dignitatis Humanae, even if the majority of the document isn't bad.
You do the same with your use of Catechism of Pius X, essentially changing the original meaning to meet your opinion on on Lumen Gentium. I agree that Muslims are attempting to worship the one God. But Lumen Gentium goes further to reference that they worship it "With us", which they clearly don't.
As much as I liked the conversation you had here with Matt many of the issues with the documents and the "coming out party" that followed them still stand. The documents may not wholly be bad but they did, in their original interpretation, allow this current crisis to flourish.
Thanks for writing this out so perfectly! This is exactly my view but you put it so much more eloquently! The thing is, if you ask Muslims, ‘do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?’ They would answer no! They would say Christians worship three gods (which we Christians obviously don’t, but that is their view) and Christians worship Jesus as God which Muslims don’t. So Muslims know they don’t worship the same God as Christians, why would we Christians be willfully ignorant and insist we do worship the same God? That doesn’t benefit and help anyone!
@Christine Alyse Thanks so much! 😊
I wish everyone would read this!
Regarding the question "do muslims and christians worship the same God" Bishop Schneider addresses that well in his book: Christus Vincit. He says that both religions refer to the same "being" as being God, although one seriously misunderstands God (no dogma of Trinity or Incarnation). However, we don't together "adore" God. Catholics adore God with a supernatural Faith, Muslims with a natural faith that is worse than a natural faith since it has many accretions because of their false religion. I think Schneider's view is that some religious non-christian person with no affiliations to a false religion would give better natural worship to God than a muslim, let's say, all things being equal.
Can you address the muslim issue raised by be skeptical of everything in the comments?
In my experience, this is being misused currently, especially among Muslim apologetic groups in kerala to spread a notion that Yahweh=Allah. The problem is that it doesn't stop there and they go on to slowly erode the divinity of Christ and gain converts.
I agree. This passage is totally taken out of context ALL the time to the benefit of the heretics. However it doesn't actually teach what the heretics claim it teaches. Ed Feser wrote a great article on this: "edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/12/christians-muslims-and-reference-of-god.html"
I do miss the TNT show. Tim and Taylor were great together.
Tim and Taylor show? Do they have YT channel together?
@@spike3346 they started off together doing a yt podcast. But then like the Beatles, they broke up.
Yeah, Tim was a decent check on Taylor. He’s gone a lil out there since they decided to go solo.
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.”
Then why does Bishop Barron say the Church through Christ is the "priveledged way" when speaking to Ben Shapiro, a Jew, regarding Salvation? Is he misrepresenting Vatican II? He seems to imply a religious indifference, i.e. all religions lead to Salvation. That is a Modernist belief and I can't stand listening to a word he says after hearing what he says about hell and Fatima. I am throroughly disgusted at the phrase "spirit of Vatican II" which is the Modernist mantra to destroy Catholic culture.
Logically this is like saying that Copernicus’ theory deserves privilege over that of Ptolemy.
Pray for all our bishops and priests. Except for the grace of God, we’d all be destined for hell.
If the Bishop said that then he is going against VII as this interview showed. Unfortunately caving before jews is quite common due to various reasons.
It's not about the Latin Mass. It's more about rejecting Jesus Christ.
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire."
- Ex Cathedra
Please fast and offer up other work, mortifications for me, Casey Thomas McKee. My salvation may very well depend upon it. I was away from the Church for 7 years. Please offer up sufferings for me and please could you all fast for me this week?
Challenge accepted brother. I have just come back to the Lord after months of infidelity to Him, although I wasn't gone for years, I know the feeling of being lost. I will fast today for you, and include you in my Rosary. Ill try tomorrow, ill comment and let ya know
@@davidjulian8643 thank you David
I will offer my pains for you for 48hrs.x
I will keep you in my prayers this week, Casey
Tomorrow is a penance day in our household. I will offer this for you along with rosary intentions. 🙏
Thank you so much, Matt! So glad you provided the space for this very smart and respectful dialogue. Tim is a smart dude and I believe an honest truth seeker. I’ve studied V2 in depth in grad school and it demands deep dives or it can be so easily misinterpreted by how it was lived or actually not lived by the left leaning Church.
We were promised that V2 changes would bring Protestants into the Catholic Church in droves. How did that work out??
it actually drove Catholics into the protestant churches
marcokite - exactly
Great show guys! Loved the discussion and I had a similar experience to Tim when I actually studied the documents when I was writing a paper on VII in college. I'd love to see more shows with the two of you!
G.K.Chesterton loved to debate and dine with his opponents, like George Bernard Shaw. Yet, he would neither dine nor debate with Aleister Crowley.
Matt, truly this was a great show. Thank you for having Tim on.
That being said, I am distraught that “left/right” terminology was used here. People already overly think of their faith in terms of secular politics and I suspect that the continual usage of these secular terms will only cause more confusion among people in the Church. There is no left or right in the Church. There is orthodox and heterodox.
That's what I dont like about Timothy (and americans in general), he talks a LOT about politics and the way he speaks online (ex. twitter) doesn't sound charitable at all. That being said, I appreciate his passion and all the research he does.
@C of course they matter. That isn't my criticism. My criticism is that we should not be distinguishing factions within the Church using secular terminology.
@C Yup. Take unions for example. Guns. Many libertarian issues which are incompatible with Orthodox Catholic teaching. Saying right/left in the Church gives the impression that the Church is divided right/left just like the secular world, but it shouldn't be. There is just Orthodox and Heterodox. People on the right and the left may be either of the two. Certainly, it is true that there is more in common with orthodoxy on the right, but the right is strongly tainted by libertarianism.
Left and right have objective meanings - traditional (illiberal) and liberal (anti-traditional). These map very well onto the major parties in the Church today, because they have the same origin as those in the political realm - enlightenment liberalism, the rejection of sacred understanding of the universe for a material one.
Before the Enlightenment, it would not make sense to speak left/right in the Church because those parties did not exist. It maps very poorly onto prior disputes. Who was left or right in the Guelph-Ghibelline disputes?
This is not to say that the average American media consumer uses the terms left or right correctly.
Agreed that the Church isn't ACTUALLY couched in terms of Left and Right. But sometimes this can be a quick and easy way for someone to get across a general point, given the common understanding of these terms, without having to drone into paragraphs of preparatory information.
Never ceases to amaze me how EVERYTHING becomes fodder for personality cults, celebrity feuds, and the marketplace. Really sickening.
While everyone gets stressed about all of this, I think we need great humility and trust in God. He knows we don’t know better, we can’t possibly know everything. We need to pray that HIS will be done and for the conversion of sinners. We of course need to seek the truth, but we really need to focus on love, even if we disagree with each other we need to LOVE. There’s no need to turn on each other like toddlers who can’t see eye to eye. We are Christian Catholics who are called to be in the state of grace, serve with love, pray that God’s will be made known to the world. Trust in God alone. But let’s be good Catholics while we are in the midst of confusion.
I think thats true. I dont want to be a heretic but i just have no clue anymore, and i know (and seriously hope) that God knows i dont have the mental capacity to figure out the truth in all the confusion. And I am really trying. But to focus on love and doing Gods will, thats always been the way. Im sure in His mercy, God will clear all this up eventually
As a new convert I am very glad you guys are having this conversation today. I became Catholic because of the ancient ways that go back to thousand years but I don’t know how to navigate the world that it’s called Tradd.
Dont go to that website. They are schismatics and are against the pope
Don't waste your time with heretical sede websites.
@Based Byzantine Why would you join the orthodox? you should know how many heresies they embrace. Also if you accept V2 why not join the orthodox? accoridng to benedict they are part of the church
Sometimes it seems rad trads hate evangelization as much as the "Susan from the parish council" set.
@@josephboyat-bt1jf sedes are heretics and schismatics.
Among the many great Catholic souls and thinkers I've come across, Tim Gordon is always one of the stand outs among fellow trads. His transparency, honesty, and zeal for the truth really shines.
You’ll have a hard time convincing me that Archbishop Viganò is not a Catholic (or that the Council was anything but a total wreck).
@@unam9931 reeeeeeeeeee
@@unam9931 Lefebvre did nothing wrong!
As a Protestant-leaning-towards-Catholicism: I think you present a rather Protestant state of mind. One of the major appeals of the Catholic Church is her claim to be infallibly guided by the Pope & Councils (& of course by the Holy Spirit). If you question one council, then another catholic may question another, then you can both just as well be Protestants. The Pope may not be wrong in so many things, but one MUST believe God will protect the church somehow. And I guess that is exactly the message of this podcast.
The Protestant questioning eats away at everything, never to find solid ground. We've tried "Sola Scriptura" (Bible Alone) but came up with a multitude of interpretations, disagreeing vehemently. So we tried the opposite, agreeing with all kinds (liberalism). You have examples of churches in Scandinavia where you're allowed to believe homosexuality is either a blessing or a sin - on a dogmatic level so you can have homosexual priests and "conservative" priests. The latter type is of course in the end shunned.
Anyway, I think I know where your questioning leads. As a Catholic, your opinion shouldn't really matter and that's the beauty of it. You will either have to trust God will preserve the church or claim that it was not the true church to begin with.
@@mortensimonsen1645 You present two common misconceptions. The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra which has only happened a few times. Second, Vatican II was a pastoral council so it has no authority over faith and morals. Also even if the Pope teaches something that doesn’t mean it’s correct if it contradicts all of the past Popes, sacred scripture, and tradition.
@@rabbisoros7811 Based rabbi.
"The Second Vatican Council is not dogmatic."
- The Roman Catholic Church
This was awesome. So helpful. Would love to see Tim on more frequently!
Me too! Tim is great
This was a great episode! Thanks to both of you!
I am so blessed to have listened to this talk. The last year or so I have been so down on the Norvus Ordo. But the bottom line to me and what I learned from this talk is the foundation of Vatican II are true, but it is man who inserts their own spin on the mass. Thank you and God bless and you and your family are in my prayers.
Tim is wrong.
Even Bergolio admitted the hermeneutic of continuity is BOGUS.
The council was high jacked. Listen to someone who wax ACTUALLY there, not arguing for a false belief.
VII is not equivalent to Catholicism.
ruclips.net/video/XcG733oDZ58/видео.html
Thanks guys it kind of seems nice to see two faces talking cheerfully at this crazy time and also educating
A couple of coolheaded guys taking on a difficult topic. Thanks to both Matt and Tim!
This is a great conversation. You answered so many questions I’ve been wrestling with. God bless the both of you and your families!
As a brand-new Catholic (18.5 hours now) this was VERY helpful! The principle idea is elucidated beginning at the 20:00 mark. In short, V2 is "ordinary magisterium" (Pope Paul VI), and the 1864 Syllabus of Errors tells us that Catholics must have "religious submission" to ordinary magisterium.
I will "like" this video just for this one minute and 40 second explanation!
What is religious submission?
@@TheLincolnrailsplitt I think it means "acceptance of church teaching". Now, if you ask me what that is, then I can't help you.
Has anyone read “An Open Letter to Confused Catholics” by Archbishop Lefebvre? If so would you recommend?
AWESOME, EYE-OPENING BOOK: LIFE-CHANGING FOR CATHOLICS WHO ARE RIGHTLY CONFUSED. ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE SUCCESSFULLY ARGUES THAT THE COUNCIL WAS HIGHJACKED, AND THEREFORE SULLIED. IT HAS RUPTURED WITH TRADITION, RATHER THAN ORGANIC REFORMS. IF THE LITURGY MESS WAS CONCOCTED THROUGH AMBIGUOUS LANGUAGE, THE REST IN LIKE MANNER, STINKS. BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL KNOW THEM. IT ALSO RUINED ANY RESPECT THAT THE EASTERN ORTHODOXY HIERARCHY: THE ORTHODOXY ARE WARNED FROM READING IT, AS A GROUP OF DANGEROUS BOOKS!
I disagree with the premise of this Vatican II 'apologia'
@@ryanlister2433 the new Mass came after the council, several years after, actually.
@@ACF1901 are you sure?
The thing I’ve read of his regarding non Catholics lines up with earlier sources, including St. Augustine and things like The Catechism explained.
I’ve generally agreed with most of your posts but I don’t think I’d call him an indifferentist, or he wouldn’t have taken such an issue with what was going on.
@@Arkangilos The person that posted that is likely a sedevacantist
One of the main views of Traditionalists is that Vatican II had such ambiguous writing. Many documents can be interpreted in the light of Tradition, but they can also be interpreted in a heretical light.
Jesus said, “by their fruits you will know them.” And this is why people fall into the “post hoc ergo propter hoc” ‘fallacy’, though whether it be an error is obviously still being debated.
I know they both mean well, but there's so much confusion in this:
What trads oppose to religious liberty is not religious coercion which was indeed condemned by the Church very early on and trads are well aware of that (to my knowledge, not a single trad out there advocates for religious coercion). But just because you have no right to force someone to adhere to the Truth does not mean that this someone has a natural right to adhere to falshoods either. This is an error, and it's been formally condemned by the Church on multiple occasions, not just by Pope Pius IX. And, though the State may not force someone to become Catholic, it may rightfully make provisions to promote the Catholic religion and curve the spread of false religions.
Sometimes, however, false religions may be tolerated within a given state in order to avoid civil unrest and hatred against the Church. That's the traditional notion of religious tolerance which differs from the notion of religious liberty as expressed in Vatican II. Dignitatis Humanae goes much further than Timothy says. It does not only talk about the "not compelling" aspect, but it also claims that religious liberty should become a civic right and that no one should be deterred from practicing any religion they see fit even in public.
There is a true "religious liberty" which consists in worshiping God in the way He Himself has established (because the right of the Creator trumps the right of the creature). So Catholics unlike non-Catholics do enjoy a natural, God-given right to practice their religion everywhere and at all times, that much is true. In fact, that's even a duty (which is really only the flipside of a right). But Dignitatis Humanae in this passage does not make a distinction between the Catholic religion and other religions. That's what trads are criticizing not the coercion part (again everyone agrees on that part).
Anyway, thought I'd mention it because that part of the talk was very misleading, and I hate to say it but it's not the only one...I don't know where this idea comes from that trads say Catholics need only adhere to Extraordinary Magisterium but not to Ordinary Magisterium, that's preposterous. I've never heard anyone say that. There's disagreement over what actually constitutes Ordinary Magisterium in and since Vatican II and what doesn't, for sure, but that's not to say that Ordinary Magisterium is irrelevant. No Catholic in their right mind would ever say such a thing and it's very misleading to say that's what trads are saying...
I think for future talks you might want to invite someone to represent the position you're criticizing to at least give a fair rather than false representation of the argument. I'm not saying that out of spite or anything I understand there was really no evil intent here, but I think it would avoid confusion about what trads and non-trads actually disagree on.
Please Pray For The Restoration of TRADITIONAL Latin mass
Let us pray for people like Taylor Marshall (and Michael Voris and those at LifeSiteNews), whom I have no doubt probably BELIEVE they are doing God's work, but are actually sowing confusion, spreading misinformation and, whether they intend to or not, encouraging schism within the Body of Christ. there will always be sin within the Church Militant. but that is not a good reason to go to extremes and create an atmosphere of fear and hostility based on self righteousness and pride that shields itself from necessary correction. we should not fear the truth, and those who attack the Church need to back up their claims with verifiable evidence. as a wise Jew once said, facts don't care about our feelings. Peace!
I love Church Militant. Straight to the point truth. No sugar coating.
Is it ironic that Timothy is going around accusing other people of adding words to documents, while repeatedly on this show, and on twitter, adding a word to his quote of the Catechism of St Pius X?
Why does Timothy keep inserting "the" into this quote to make it "[The] one true God"? The accurate quote is below, and completely undermines Timothy's point.
12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptized and do not believe in Jesus Christ,
because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting
one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of
Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.
he added a word in brackets so it's clearly not part of the original quote, and it's a device often employed by many writers and journalists; hardly an egregious rewrite. what's your point?
@@nchinth >basing an argument entirely on a word that you added into the quote
lmao if you can’t see my point I don’t think I can help you, sorry
@@NeonShadowsx In other words, you have no point. That clears that up, thnx.
@@nchinth Can’t tell if you’re lying (deliberately misrepresenting) or just dumb, so I will not be engaging any further.
May we all be charitable
I accept every dogma and anathema declared by the second Vatican Council.
I see what you did there! :D
@@mole215 Imagine thinking that putting an image of the Blessed Virgin Mary on a skateboard is not Blasphemy.
the Faith doesnt subsist in the Church it IS the Church
This was great. I'm really happy to see Tim is willing to listen. I used to enjoy TnT but then I think it got a little sidetracked. I respect Tim even more so now.
I have to say Matt after a very disappointing interview with one of my favorites, Fr. Goring you hit it out of the park with Tim!! You asked insightful questions to help us understand a sticking point. Tim’s humility in searching for truth is compelling; it makes me wonder if I’m clinging to any false truths.
Humility is measured by what you end up believing. It is not measured by self-effacing attitude or supposedly humble tone of voice. The definition of pride as a mortal sin is to esteem a created thing more than God. Humility, as its opposite, is possible only by knowing God. This knowledge is a gift gratuitously given, but it is incompatible with any human posture or sentiment of "we know so little" or "I feel so small" and it certainly isn't synonymous with any such posture or sentiment.
I attended a talk by a friend in Opus Dei the whole purpose of which was that Vatican 2 was reaffirming and not revolutionary. Tim Gordon's research and analysis is inspired. As an old baby boomer the hippy masses in the late 60's and early 70's to even my teenage brain were embarrassing and stupid. Let's just bring the celebration of the Mass back to it's universal embracing beautiful uniformity. Let's all pray for Pope Francis
Tim is wrong.
Even Bergolio admitted the hermeneutic of continuity is BOGUS.
ruclips.net/video/XcG733oDZ58/видео.html
Tim, I love your love of the Truth. Your earnest humility, a grace from the Lord, allows for this pure quest and love of the Lord, Truth Himself.
I bought & read Tim's book Rules for Retrogrades and really liked it. I have his book Catholic Republic in my pile of books, waiting to get to it. I am eager to read it although I'm reading my books in the order that I bought them and I have 3 more until I get to Catholic Republic. Tim is a thinker who is very refreshing.
The Tim Gordon redemption arc is glorious.
I went from virtually rejecting Vatican II to not only realizing that the documents "aren't bad" but that the general spirit of the council was absolutely necessary. The fact of the matter is, the modern world is not the same as antiquity or the middle ages. For instance, In 400, you could chant the mass in Latin, and be confident your hearers would understand; in 1580, you could chant the mass in Latin, knowing full well that most of the lay faithful wouldn't understand, but still be confident that they would live their lives more or less according to church teaching. Why? Because their way of life was so saturated with the faith, the images of the saints, and the stories of sacred scripture, that the liturgy (and how beautiful the Tridentine Mass truly is!) was simply an outpouring of that pre-existing culture. That, however, is simply not the case in the modern world. For most Catholics, the only time they will hear or see anything even vaguely religious in their daily lives is at Sunday Mass, that is, if they even go. Our new "pagan" culture is actually not even really pagan--it is dogmatically irreligious. At least the pagan Romans and Greeks understood natural religion--that's why Paul and the other missionaries to the gentiles were able to make the arguments they did (e.g. Acts 17). I sometimes meditate on what it would look like for St. Paul to go into the modern equivalent of the forum or areopagus (whatever that would be). What arguments would he make? To what emotion or circumstance would he appeal in his discourse? The most charitable reading of Vatican II is that the council was/is the church attempting to answer those very questions.
Jesus Christ said by the fruits ye shall know. What was the result of the Second Vatican Council for the Church? Millions have left the Catholic faith.Blasphemous Masses have increased significantly.The Council does not address the main issue of the 20th century: communism.You can think what you want about the council, but you cannot deny the reality.
And how did Vatican II solve the problem of Catholics in modern culture? Why did millions of people leave the Catholic Church after the council if these changes sound so good? The Catholic Church decays more and more. The new rite attracts almost no one to the Church. There are places where churches even close because no one goes.
The traditional Latin mass is centered on God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Where the N.O. Mass is centered on,” my brothers and sisters. The priest faces the brothers and sisters and turn his back on the Tabernacle.
Forgive me for questioning, but does not the priest bring Christ to the sacrificial alter? Does this not bring the focus to the sacrifice on the alter? I am a child of pre Vatican 2 and I remember being able to see for the first time sacrifice of the liturgy and the presentation of the body and blood of Christ. I was amazed at the time and to this day appreciate being part of the Mass. however I consider myself deeply traditional. I seek truth and therefore feel as though a desire to absorb as much information as I am mentally and spiritually capable.
Ad Orientum.
Posted to fb! Great interview!
Pope Pius IX's Quanta Cura (1864):
"And from this wholly false idea of social organisation they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, especially fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by our predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, namely that the liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed by law in every correctly established society... Each and every doctrine individually mentioned in this letter, by Our Apostolic authority We reject, proscribe and condemn; and We wish and command that they be considered as absolutely rejected by all the sons of the Church."
but the documents pay lip service to orthodoxy (while introducing novel and contrary formulations and doctrines)!
also you probably like, added a word! just like martin luther!! (please note I will not provide any example or evidence of this claim).
@@NeonShadowsx if you don’t support your accusation you should not make it.
@@Arkangilos I think (hope) he was being sarcastic
I’m a Catholic. I am not a trad. I am not the opposite of trad. Who came up with these words? If there was no Novus Ordo we wouldn’t have all this evil going on in the Church.
Would Tim be interested in discussing how Dignitatis Humanae can possibly be squared with the same Syllabus of Errors he quoted, namely errors 77 and 78?
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. - Allocution “Nemo vestrum,” July 26, 1855.
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. - Allocution “Acerbissimum,” Sept. 27, 1852.
One of the very best explanations of this is by Dr Thomas Pink. Watching his lecture (ruclips.net/video/lc6HTGrWHZU/видео.html) was a genuine eye-opener for me, because I had had concerns about Dignitatis Humanae in the past. I can't recommend it strongly enough!
To try and summarise the lecture, it's always been Catholic teaching that the State, viewed as the State in purely its native capacity, is incompetent to intervene in religious matters. Furthermore, in the past, when States did act on behalf of the Church, their authority to intervene in religious matters was actually "borrowed" from the Church's native competence, because the States were explicitly Christian, as communities of the Baptised who were led by Baptised leaders. In the modern era, States are explicitly agnostic, so they have forfeited their "borrowed" right to religious competence, and returned to their native incompetence. Dignitatis Humanae therefore made a prudential judgment that the Church practically no longer delegates its spiritual competence to States, because States are no longer even pretending to be Christian (though the Council made *explicit* that it was *not* changing the "traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ"). In other words, it's still expedient for Catholicism to be "held as the only religion of the State," but the State -- without joining itself to the Church's authority in a way analogous to the body joining itself to the soul (Pope Leo XIII's analogy) -- is not inherently capable of intervening in religious judgments. If that sounds like a watering-down of the Syllabus of Errors, note that one of the *condemned* propositions in the Syllabus itself is that "the civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government." This accords perfectly with Pink's argument that Catholic teaching has always maintained that the State, in itself, has no competency to interfere in "matters relating to religion". Sorry if my summary was a little convoluted; but please watch the lecture I linked to above! Peace.
SpencerBauly thank you for the recommendation, I’ve watched it! It left me walking away with a couple questions, chief of which is this; Dignitatis Humanae condemns the coercion against anyone in the field of religion, not just by a secular state, but by any entity. I would have no qualms if the declaration states that man has a natural right for that immunity from the state if the state seperates itself from the Church. But the document does not seem to do that. It states that man has a right not to be prevented from spreading his faith, be it true or false. However you and I would agree that if the state is Christian, man does not have that right.
What would you say to this?
@@bluecat243 Thank you for your gracious response -- I'm glad you watched the video and found it helpful. I think you make a good point. I'm no expert, but here is my initial response (and forgive me if it's too long and convoluted).
First, Dignitatis Humanae (DH) says that 'religious freedom' (as treated in this document) "has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society." In other words, DH is *only* talking about coercion in the context of *political society.* So, the Church still has the right to coerce its baptised members, but the State (by itself) does not normally have that right. But DH introduces some exceptional cases, where the State (even by itself) *would* be allowed in coerce; and this would include: "[the safeguarding] of the rights of all citizens, ... peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights, ... adequate care of genuine public peace, ...and finally out of the need for a proper guardianship of *public morality*." In other words, public morality should be defended, and this might sometimes allow the State (even when separated from the Church) to coerce in religious matters.
As for your point that "it states that man has a right not to be prevented from spreading his faith, be it true or false," DH does place limits on this. For instance, it says religious freedom has to do with "[honoring] the *Supreme Being* in public worship." That immediately rules out Atheism, and it also rules out Polytheism. So, at most, you'd be allowing Judaism, Islam, and Christianity to be spread in public. And, to the extent that Judaism or Islam might interfere with public morality, DH teaches that even a secular State could restrict this. Moreover, DH says that any proselytising "which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy" should not be allowed, even by a secular State. Now, if we were back in a properly Christian state, the Church could lawfully allow that the baptised Catholics who are in a position of authority can once again "borrow" the Church's authority to coerce in spiritual matters (just like in the good old days!). DH is entirely silent on this point, except for one sentence where it explicitly upholds the traditional teaching (with all of its pro-coercion teachings): "therefore [Dignitatis Humanae] leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ." So, while we live in purely secular State, the State theoretically has the right to prevent Atheists or Polytheists from proselytising, and to prevent unsavoury proselytising by Jews and Muslims (and technically even Christians). But if our State were a Catholic one, the traditional teaching about pro-Catholic coercion by the State would be entirely untouched, and entirely still in force. I hope that's helpful. Peace.
Tim's best interview. I really enjoyed it.
It would be great for Taylor and Tim to debate, in order to reach the Truth; not to entertain the Modernist Mob.
Anyone else notice the feed skip at 20:38? Scratch that I got so much lag. Several times throughout the stream. Seemed like sizeable chunks of dialogue missing.
Tim Gordon, thanks for your honesty and boldness.
I consider myself to be more traditional minded but Tim is pretty much spot on here. And the “trads” don’t do themselves or their side any favors when they start yelling at other Catholics and telling them that Novus Ordo mass is mortal sin.
I've always preferred listening to Timbo....less ego and more smarts.
That is not correct
@@DanielMaloneJr correct or not, it's just my opinion.
6:50 Matt's face when Timothy said "we were both kind of Catholic bad boys." LOLOL
Why would one need an interpretive aid to explain a council which is supposed to simplify and clarify?
I Stand with the Brilliant Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano’ Timothy! Look at the fruits of this aberration of a Council!!!
That’s exactly right. As ArchBishop Viganò states ... it’s the fact that it is being discussed in the way that it is, is proof of the confusion it has caused. If the documents were clear this show would have never happened. The documents are unquestionably confusing and unclear in numerous places.
We cannot reject Vatican II. But we can request that the ambiguous parts of the documents issued by the Council be properly clarified, as proposed by Bishop Athanasius Schneider.
1:10:39 That is wrong. *The Pachamama is an Andian goddess, not Amazonian.* And the Andian natives *do worship the Pachamama* nowadays.
The Vatican has done much to obscure this fact. The best construction that can be put on this is that it is like the practice of fifth Christians with Hellenistic educations to write long poems that refer to the Olympian gods. Why even refer to this goddess when we have Our Lady of Guadalupe to provide edification to Latin America?
@@JRobbySh and even more local titles from what I've heard, although I'm sorry I don't remember the specific one.
Thank you for making this video there are a lot of divisions right now because of what is going on I really don’t know how to explain them I just came back to the faith so sometimes I feel I discourage people and they discourage me but I like the fact that you guys are having an open and calm conversation I hope to learn a lot from both of you
I trust T Gordon and would love to hear watch debate with dr Marshall. If they don’t I would side with TG based on what I’ve heard from both men.
Thank you! I have been looking for this very conversation. You both did a great job
Love the offer to host the debate between TnT, Matt. I appreciate the debate.
The trouble with Vatican II and the novus ordo is this. The documents say one thing, but in practice it is another. Somehow Vatican II morphed into clowns during mass the removal of so many prayers in the mass specially the call for our Lady's intercession and that of the saints. Somehow Vatican II was used to remove the mention of hell more specifically the call for saints to pray for us so that we do not go to hell. This is the problem. Tim is right that what the documents say is not bad, it's what we see being practiced that is the problem.
Great talk! I respect all the three speakers: Taylor Marshall, Matt Fradd and Timothy Gordon.
Thank you Matt and Tim! God bless you!