Rutger Bregman on elites, survival of the friendliest, rethinking human history
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- Опубликовано: 21 май 2020
- Rutger Bregman is a Dutch writer and historian known for shaking up social norms. Last year, he attracted global attention at the World Economic Forum in Davos when he turned on his wealthy audience and called out those who avoid paying taxes.
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He has also argued for a universal basic income. His latest work ‘Humankind’ offers a roadmap for how we might organise society differently, based on the idea that deep down most people are actually decent human beings.
He talks to Krishnan about his Ten Commandments to living your life in a good way, his arguments for a universal basic income and his observations of humanity during the coronavirus lockdown.
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I am near the end of the book, and I have to say it has made a deeper impression on me than almost anything else I have read. If I add that I am 71 years old, that I have a long academic background, and have read thousands of books and essays in more than one language, it may convey how Bregman has overturned so many of my assumptions. Everyone should read the book, which is a treasure trove of his extensive research and insightful thinking.
I take my hat of for you sir..in aknowledging many assumptions you've had are now overturned after reading Bregman. He is such an intelligent man, historian who comes with logic suggestions in solving many problems, based on historic facts and evidence. I hope they, the elite, will not be able to silence him.
Really? I'm not nearly as well read, and I went in agreeing with the guy, but left thinking his reasoning was a little bit moronic. Like it's clear he never actually read The Selfish Gene. Or if he did he misunderstood it. As that's the book I would point to for why I went into this agreeing with him. So dispite the author's best efforts I agree.
@@myself2noone What?!
@@myself2noone We are not merely our genes, though. We can think, act, feel. Genes can't. The "selfishness" of a gene is an abstraction; it really just is.
Finding Rutger Bregman was the best part of 2020. He’s such a good role model. I’m still reading the utopia for realists, so grateful for all his work!
Profound statement by Rutger - "When elite people look in the mirror, they assume other people are as selfish as they are".
Everyone has the desire to be more elite
@@jodyqt I know a lot of people that feel as I do, we do NOT want to be an elite. That sounds like a real drag for many reasons. So I would disagree with your assumption.
Tim Shannon, ND I cant imagine a life without the struggle to do better achieve goals fix things create things push the boundaries of knowledge striving to be the best I can be. But if your saying that’s you and there are others like you then I’ll have to take your word for it. I can only beg you to try to be the best version of yourself you can achieve the struggle is worth it.
@@jodyqt Nah, most people just want some dignity in life, to be able to workfor/earn a living and to not live below the poverty line, not everyone is selfish and greedy.
@@jodyqt also imo to be the best version of yourself is not being 'elite,' to be elite is to be regarded as better than most/all.
Starts with apologizing for the AV quality of the content, proceeds to have an intelligent, interesting and thought provoking conversation.
The quality of content is not just fine, sir. It is exceptional.
At least someone is decent. More like him please.
Yes he has balanced views that cross through left and right, which seems very rare in this day and age. And it's high time that billionaires are held responsible for their global amassment and use of their massive wealth.
@@thefunkybassist9916 Which right leaning views do you see in Rutger?
@@thefunkybassist9916 held responsible for being rich?...I'm sorry, since when is that a crime?
Dont be fooled so easily, he's arguing for UBI which inherently spells disaster for a lot of people, they've given us a taste of that lifestyle with the furlough scheme.
You have to be very careful with these so called "opposers" of the elites, just remember if they were true opposition they wouldn't be invited to Davos, they wouldn't be getting interviewed on mainstream outlets either believe me...
I’m so glad you’re back Krishnan!! This is my favourite series because you’re such a powerful and insightful moderator. Thank for for doing what you continue to do - shining a light on how to make the world a better place!
He is a weasel
He's kind of reasonable in this interview, nice change.
This guy needs more airtime! The powers behind the curtain are not allowing it.
The powers that be LOVE guys like Bregman. Bregman's ideology is actually NOT a threat to Big business. In fact, the opposite is true.
The media is not a group of people sitting around a table.
Why do I keep seeing and hearing about him everywhere then?
@@kurisensei The answer is in his last name.
@@rossleeson8626 It actually is.
Oh my God, Rutger Bregman, you are a wonderful human being.
Yes, "understanding is not condoning." Such a necessary concept in everyday life.
Listening to an interview with Rutger Bregman is worth any amount of technical issues. Great interview, thank you.
FANTASTIC. Love Rutger Bregman so much. Such inspiring, novel ideas. So refreshing.
yeah , till the day he will start killing fields
Such a welcome breath of fresh air amidst all the turmoil in the world. Great motivation and insight. Thank you!
This was brilliant, I need to share this positive message beyond the echo chamber and hope that it reaches other mindsets. Thank you very much both Rutger and Krishnan.
Finally, yes Richie Alan this guy needs more air time. Seeing Rutger Bregman on Novara Media was also very informative
Great summary of the book for people who can't get their hands on the book from the library because it is so popular. I like the part at the end about designing schools that will bring out the best in our kids instead of the worst.
Honestly feel like if we were just taught that people themselves are basically a friendly lot who've outlived other hominids specifically bc of their capacity for cooperation and not simply 'survival of the fittest' all the damn time, the world would be a better place
'Survival of the fittest' needs to die a death pronto. Gives roots to the 'everyone out for themselves' nonsense.
this so much
This is a very beautiful discussion. We are in a time when we need to build on what is positive about humans to survive. Thank you for this uplifting perspective.
Thanks for this thought provoking video. When humanity left Africa approximately 270,000 years ago, they lived in cooperative societies without permanent elite leaders. Barry Brown's excellent book "Humanity, the world before religion, war & inequality", is also an eye opener.
There was a media strike in Israel in the 80s, and if I remember correctly, there was less violence during that period. The theory was that people talked to one another, and looked at people around them, rather than read/watch news, and get polarized views of how other groups are.
Sort of nice.
Just discovered Rutger. What a positive person. Will be watching his series on Netflix.
Rutger thank you for for focusing on the good life and wisdom!
I think this is a better format than the TV version. Seeing the discussion face to face makes me feel like a 'participant', rather than in the TV version as an 'observer'. Also, this segment is a crucial part of what makes C4 News more relevant to a thinking audience. I believe there is an audience like me that cares less about production quality and more about engaging and factual content.
I already do not watch the news on TV. I gave up my licence a few years ago in protest and dismay at the seeming willingness by another news channel to edit a video interview to hide the fact that the answer didn't fit the intended narrative. I would, therefore, welcome more C4 content on RUclips. I'm willing to pay a subscription for that.
Its very true the more negative news you watch the more depressive and hopeless you feel
Rule 11: Don't read the RUclips comments.
Probably best not to type them either, just to be safe.
Freakoutski why not ?
I disagree. Except that google now own your thoughts and statements for perpertuity.
The golden rule : do onto others as you would like done onto you. A reciprocal mutual arrangrment .
It's actually funny you say that because he directly opposes this saying in his latest book:
The Golden Rule of virtually every philosophy in world history is some form of: ‘Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.’ […]
These days, billions of parents repeat the Golden Rule to their children. It comes in two flavours: the positive injunction (‘Treat others as you wish to be treated’) and the negative injunction (‘Do not do unto others what you would not have them …’). Some neurologists even believe the rule is a product of millions of years of human evolution and is programmed into our brains.8
Even so, I’ve come to believe the Golden Rule falls short. Empathy can be a bad guide: the simple fact is we’re not always good at sensing what others want. All those managers, CEOs, journalists and policymakers who think they do are effectively robbing others of their voice. This is why you so seldom see refugees interviewed on TV. This is why our democracy and journalism constitute mostly one-way traffic. And this is why our welfare states are steeped in paternalism.
Far better would be to start by asking a question. To let citizens have their say, as in the participatory democracy in Porto Alegre (see Chapter 15). To let employees direct their own teams, as in Jean-François Zobrist’s factory (see Chapter 13). To let kids plot their own learning pathways, as in Sjef Drummen’s school (see Chapter 14).
This variation on the familiar maxim, also known as the ‘Platinum Rule’, was nicely summed up by George Bernard Shaw. ‘Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you,’ he advised. ‘Their tastes may be different.
Rutger is very interesting. This deserves loads of views.
The BBC documentary maker David Malone once interviewed the mathematical biologist Martin Nowak for his documentary, "Why are we here?" Malone interviewed Nowak about his mathematical modelling of "co-operation" which aimed to explore the question (paraphrasing), "if natural selection favours survival of the fittest, then why do we even have cooperation?" (BTW: cooperation is found EVERYWHERE in nature).
What his modelling found is that where groups of collaborators meet groups of non-collaborators, the collaborators "win". Why? Because behind every co-operator confronting a "defector" (the language he uses in his model), the co-operator has the support of lots of others behind him - and the defector does not. That's the good news. The bad news is that co-operation is mathematically stable at about 31% of the population, and those clusters of co-operation come and go over time. So there is more competition 'in the system' at any one point in time.
I guess one question is how "power" accumulates and stacks "the system" in favour of exploitative forces that seem to constrain cooperation, or define the rules in their interests. I'm thinking of things like zero hours contracts, gig economy platforms, lobbying that drives public policy, etc. I WANT to believe that being friendly wins, but I'm still cynical a lot of the time.
Msm propoganda goebbels pr is essential.
The anomalous individuals (psychopaths, sociopaths) seem to accumulate at the higher levels of hierarchy.
As for why they stay there- people don't seem to challenge them. A lot of authority is based on the fact people respect that authority. There are too few dissidents to stand up and say no. Group cooperation works against corrections then.
A refreshing view giving me hope.
Rutger Bregman is my favourite modern thinker and writer. I love his incredibly well-sourced optimism. Exactly the kind of thinker we need in our world today.
Nothing new in this, but probably one of those things which every generation has to learn for themselves.
I remember getting in trouble back in the 1960d with thr minister came into our confirmation class to tell the boys how it was their patriotic duty to fight in Vietnam for our country ( protests had started on campuses). I raised my hand. Said I was confused and asked how the people in Vietnam who we had raised our pennies for in our Bible classes for years had now become evil, our enemies and we needed to go across the ocean and invade their country to kill them. I was not being " smart mouthed", I really wanted to know as it did not make sense. Our course this was not well received.
Yes, Vietnam was a conspiracy by the U.S. to make money. War makes money by building weapons of mass destruction, and stimulates the economy. Ho Chi Mihn didn't want war. He just wanted to unify his country. We caused their civil war, and we killed 3 million Vietnamese, then left. And we sprayed Vietnam with agent orange which causes cancer. And is still causing birth defects in Vietnamese people people today.
Such an insightful conversation. Many of the comments reflected what I have learned from authors such as Charles Darwin, Georg Simmel and Sam Harris so now I want to hear more from Rutger Bregman. This is the quality of discourse which we need to incorporate into our everyday lives, e.g. politics and education.
Great interview.
Thanks to Rutger and Krishnan for providing a bit of optimisme. And to all the commentators her for confirming friendly conversation. Maybe the follow-up then will help us to understand why the destructors have so much more influence than the friendliest
It takes a sociopath to stir the mob into atrocious acts
(thanks C4, always a joy to read/hear Rutger Bregman's theories wonderfully tied to historical fact)
Our Nature is kind, our Culture is violent.
Thanks for that. Really hopeful and definitely needed in these times(/any times!)
This is an excellent interview. Good work Krishnan and Rutger
Fantastic interview, thank you! Looking forward to getting my hands on the new book
What a great interview and what fantastic ideas! It got me thinking about the stories we tell ourselves about who we are... Could Channel 4 News maybe start a kind of "Channel 4 Good News" series, in which you report on the things that provide some evidence for humans being kind to each other? I know that traditionally people are more interested in hearing about the threats, but just now, and probably also in the future, hearing more about our kind and cooperative sides might actually help change things for the better!
Virtually all the bad things going on can be attributed to Murdoch media
Pr
yep, Murdoch created his cancerous media model in the 60s/70s in Australia after being groomed for the industry by his father - Murdoch then began spreading this model of drama and sensationalism through the UK, and eventually to America - he's been very closely tied to numerous leaders in those 3 countries for decades, and his media practices has single-handedly played huge roles in the abuse of the political/journalistic landscape in Australia, the propagation of propaganda and the subsequent lack of trust for anything in America, as well as campaigning obsessively for Brexit - Name one person since Hitler/Stalin who has done more damage to the modern world.
Also, I'm australian, and yes, I am deeply ashamed that Murdoch was born here.
Krishnan was on telly when I was in primary school. He is still on the telly 40 years later and looks younger than I do.
lovely interview .. please pursue further dialogue and expand topics
Rutger Bregman is brilliant, genius in simplicity. Utopia For Realists and Human Kind are fantastic reads.
Fun fact: Being autistic does not mean you have an illness or disease. It means your brain works in a different way from other people.
It's something you're born with or first appears when you're very young.
If you're autistic, you're autistic your whole life.
Autism is not a medical condition with treatments or a "cure". But some people need support to help them with certain things.
Nice. We should move ahead in our lives with kindness for each other rather than with aggressive killer instinct to dominate other to attain our goal. We are all connected! A disease anywhere, is disease everywhere.
Yeah... working together, things get done. If the group is capable of and consistent with enforcing a policy of tolerance, being there us just so much... better. Calmer.
I just noticed this on a Minecraft server I come to- mods do very little, but the community is remarkably self-policing. Griefing, stealing, bad behavior- are very stigmatised.
We have the proper plugins, but when one group wanted to start a war, _literally every single mayor of every other town got together and decided we would never have wars._
Starting out isn't easy, so new players are directed and equipped with basic tools.
Any errant players are kept in check, and if anyone would repeatedly prove irreformable, there's a standing agreement they're free real estate for PKing. No one has crossed that line yet.
I just love this!
Fantastic interview. Thanks for the discussion and well thought questions/answers!
Thank you, great conversation, I have just started reading Humankind.
I really enjoyed this especially in lockdown in Melbourne I feel more positive for a moment
On the other side of kindness, there is the Stanford Prison experiment, where the students took a part as a prisoner or a guard. The guards became so cruel, the experiment had to be terminated. That is a very discouraging and frightening look at human nature,
Yes! Bregman! Very interesting ...perfect.
#TruthToPower good one Channel 4 xx
#RealLordOfTheFlies
Excellent stuff! thank you Krishnan and Rutger
It was a great talk. The don't watch the news part might have been a little difficult for you but your restraint was commendable
Yeah! Being nice feels good.
Very interesting podcast! I have a friend who literally just finished reading 'Humankind' and she really enjoyed it, and, feels hopeful for the future of mankind, so, wanted to know who he was and what he had to say!
Really great ideas. So good for the future of humanity. Love it!
I totally agree with his statement that nowadays news always depress us by sensationalising the issue.
Thank you for the professor speech
This was great thoughts, thank you so much. Must bay the book....
Sounds exactly like what we were taught at school.. . And I think it has worked pretty well for us. 🇳🇴
Both lovely people who bring the best in others. Thank you
Thanks Rutger. The basic needs of life for all creatures is the common ground with Love being the prime motivator. One Planet, One People. Peace.
Excellent conversation and what a remarkable viewpoint. Full on
Enjoyed that Thankyou.
He recommends at one point to just read a Sunday newspaper rather than follow the news. Can anyone out there recommend a good British newspaper/whatever to read each week to enrich ones life and stay up to date with things? 20 years old, living in london, feeling dispossessed.
I only looked him up because he called out the elites at Davos. Hope he doesn't disappoint.
Fun fact: When Shrek removes his helmet after saving Fiona, revealing himself to be an Ogre, he sarcastically asks if she was expecting Prince Charming. This turned out to literally be true in Shrek 2 (2004) where Fiona's purpose for being in the tower was revealed.
Thanks
Chris Whitty, where were you yesterday?
a wonderful interview. loved his book
Great stuff 😀👍 Can't wait to buy his books 😁
Reminds me of a professor I had at Uni, the friend I never had.
You may not like Bregman's ideas but you have to admit he makes you think. TheReaper!
Excellent podcast!
Rutger Bregman and a piano. 2 good things.
New book: Humankind
Not just Australia I live in the UK don't allways lock up at night and have left the back door open for 3 months once while abroad ,, no problems ,,
Don't assume the worst is very powerful!
Was it not Rousseau who argued that the arts and sciences had not been beneficial to humankind... Amazing how one person can have some good ideas but also some really really bad ideas!
Guys does Rutger Bregman have a RUclips channel ? I can't find it , could anyone help pls finding it if exist ?
He has a podcast but that’s all in Dutch though. The correspondent has a lot of translated material. So start there
I live in Aus and don't lock doors either 🌞
Rutger is awesome!
Thanks for this post! I love it and Rutger Bregman's contagious optimism. Human's aren't all shitheads. We need each other. We're interdependent, as the Dalai Lama says. Let's stop throwing mud at each other.
This is why Danes are the happiest people. We live bye those rules. Also we trust in people.
I enjoy this interviewer. I've defended his interview with Prof Dawkins as he asked insightful questions without necessarily displaying his personal views. Objective and intelligent - a treasure. People made the assumption that because he was culturally from the "dark sub-continent" that he was incapable of asking unbiased questions, and had an agenda about religion.
Thank you
Groeten uit Amsterdam (my regards from Amsterdam)
inspiring and motivating
Fun fact: In the scene where everyone is lining up with their magical creatures for sale, the woman that has Donkey is voiced by Kathleen Freeman. At one point she says "No! No!". This is said exactly the same in the 1980 film Blues Brothers where she plays a nun, and Jake offers to get her money to save the orphanage and she says "No! No! I will not take your..."
Anyone know the name of the Dutch school Rutger mentioned right at the end of the video?
The school is called Agora and located in the town of Roermond. It was founded (or restructured to its new philosophy, he's not clear on that in his writing) only recently in 2014, by Sjef Drummen.
Edit: Google says Agora is the name of the educational concept not the school itself. The school's name is Niekée school.
Edit: Here is the link to their website, though it's all in Dutch www.verenigingagoraonderwijs.nl
Rutger's ten commandments
21:10 1. When in doubt, assume the best
24:30 2. Think in win-win scenarios
25:45 3. Ask more questions
26:55 4. Temper your empathy, train your compassion
27:38 5. Try to understand the other even if you don't get where they are coming from
30:05 6. Love your own as others love their own
31:44 7. Avoid the news
33:25 8. Don't punch Nazis
35:10 9. Come out of the closet, don't be ashamed to do good
36:10 10. Be realistic
up the vol a bit...
I can see this is an important idea , thanks for showing it.
Their conversation from 10 mins is pretty funny given where things are now. People have adhered to what they said "actually, people aren't doing". Like Rutger, so i'd love to know his thoughts on how things have changed
There is no other social artifact as cooperative as the free market.
Been spending most of life liv'n in a competitive paradise!
Audio volume is very low
People are cruel and brutal because of early childhood trauma, brutality, abuse, violence and neglect during childhood.
Sound quality is not good
If people were'nt so scarred emotionally, by war, poverty, unmet needs in childhood, sexual and physical and verbal abuse, they would be much kinder. If out governments took good care of their populations, things could be so much better.
The Bill of Rights did more for civilization than toasters and video games.
Does anyone know exactly what school in the south of the Netherlands is he talking about?
Probably Agora in Roermond. agoraonderwijs.nl is their website. All in Dutch as far as I can tell.