World of Warcraft, the game that everyone views you as nothing but a number. Wanna do the content? Gotta have the logs. Wanna get the logs? Gotta do the content. No wonder new players don't stick around cause instead of doing the content, they're getting the esports treatment.
Even for classic, I wish there were no addons. If some functionality is essential for the game, it should be included in the main package. Otherwise, it is just trivializing the content.
In retail killing a boss after hours of progression doesn't give a spike of dopamine anymore, but instead its just a relief. Something has to change, i know dozens of people i raided with in the past. They just quit long time ago, same as me
hours? try days buddy. My guild wipes on hard bosses for well over a month normally. And not just because we have a lot of mistakes being made by a small number of people over and over and over again. That is an aspect of it, but it's far from the whole picture. You're right about the dopamine though. I killed Mythic Jailer, what did I feel, relief that it was finally over. Same with Sylvanas, Raz.....
I think this happens independently of the game. I have the same experience in Dark Souls though. I used to challenge run dark souls. I have spent weeks on a boss fight in the past and the feeling of finally getting the kill was amazing. These days I don't get the same satisfaction from it. It's a natural thing that could have more to do with the player than the game. But, it could also be the game, I don't know.
the last fight i remember having this spike of dopamine that is relevant in my memory till this day was shyvarra and antorus heroic in legion with my guild progression after months in it since then only the last boss of heroic of each tier raid gave me some dopamine but not even close to that of shyvarra not even with pugs that are suppose to be harder/more stressfull it dont give me that joy, just a relief.
I literally quit playing WOW because of this exact issue. Having only ever made one ticket in the 15 years I played I talked to whoever answered my ticket and they didnt even think I was making a valid ticket and told me that no one plays like that and made me feel so inferior to them I pretty much let him know I would never ever give him a cent of my money ever again.
I agree with Asmongold that there is too many raid difficulties that makes game scaling go crazy every other expansion and it's not really fun to see your character do less dmg then ten years ago. What i would do instead is... i would add invidual rating based on ppl performance in lfr. So players could see some improvements. I would even give people some nice title or transmog if they did well. I would add bots to LFR if there is not enough players. Then i would add scalable difficulty raid similiar to flex raids we had in mop. This difficulty should be much higher then lfr but nothing crazy so it could be done with any setup. Make these raids scalable from 10 to 40 players. This way everyone in your guild can play and noone is left behind. Everyone can get good gear and everyone is happy. Then implement mythic raids that don't reward gear but trangmog, titles and mounts. Make this difficulty crazy hard. Harder then what we have now. Gear progression should be something like this: quest rewards/leveling dungeons>hc dungeons/lfr>mythic dungeons/flex raids. Raid rewards are 10%ilvl higher then dungeons/quest rewards. IMO Blizzard is feeding players with too much garbage that keeps players busy but this only makes game worse. I think for casual players endgame should be mythic dungeons not raids. Also mythic raiders should not be forced to waste their time on split runs but playing hardest difficulty. This improves game for everyone.
Since Max said he wanted some retail players opinions here is one. As a 2800 M+ IO player and AOTC guild leader of a small friends and family guild, I agree with Asmon on most things here. I prefer smaller groups so I don't think I'd like the 40-person raids, but I don't like Add-ons or all the complicated interactions between abilities. I really enjoy watching the RWF, but as a player I would prefer the simpler life.
Asmo is right 100% on this. World of Addons, World of the Last Patch, World of 1000000 Buttons to Push, World of Parses. Meh. No thanks, yoloing SOD for now.
Meanwhile everyone in SoD is gatekeeping raids asking for purple logs and tryhard parsing a fucking LFR difficulty raid. Its hilarious. I swear, this is coming from someone with 20 cutting edge on retail in top 150 ranked guilds. The people in classic care more about parsing than any guild I have been in in retail. The difference between players in classic and retail is intelligence, nobody likes to hear it but that's the truth.
Who in the hell does he think is keeping WOW going? It is the sweatiest of the sweaties for the last 20 years that have been playing the game. Blizzard does not acknowledge Asmongold anymore. I think his feelings are hurt lol.
Think it needs to scale. Otherwise we're regressing back to the same cyclical conversation when Vanilla -> TBC went from 40 -> 25. I don't think it's the solution though, the communal culture of meta'ing through the path of least resistance is always the elephant in the room and the root of anything introduced.
10:40 - 11:10 that's where I'm at mentally also, Veteran players like us aren't going to put up with this stupidity and madness anymore @Staysafe, We know the drill ❤
IMO 40 man raids is the worst part of classic, I always play classic servers until 60 then quit because the raids are terrible. IDK why anyone would want them back they're such a pain in the arse to organise let alone the other problems they have. I think they should go the other way like SoD and have 10 mans be the raid size. Playing with friends is way more fun than playing with 20 odd people you're never spoken to and 10 that you barely know because the guild is so big.
I like 40 mans. Feels good to run them in a guild. Would not pug a 40 man though (that being said I also don't pug 10, 20 or 25 mans, the only thing I pug is 5 man dungeons).
Important factor is that the current/younger audience are more privy to the 'in/out' philosophy that a lot of other games in the market offer. The audience that finds 40man preferable are typically an older audience that did them when younger, most have other shit to do irl now, so organisation becomes more a case of the stars aligning for everyone. It's a bummer, but yeah.
@@thareus20 I pugged 40 mans at classic launch and I enjoyed it a lot. You saw a lot of the same faces and you almost always got in even if you were just pre-bis etc.
@@thareus20 I didnt say you dont, I said realistically finding that time to free up for 40mans is a lot less easier than when most were younger. I dig 40mans too.
He´s Absolutely Right! In order to bring more players into the game, do the game have to be easy to understand and play without any obstacles. Addons are first obstacle people run into, because addons are a huge burden for many people. Then we have the spells, there are too many of them, and as the last thing, any group content in the game feels like its made for the hardcore players
So he wants to limit the game to a certain audience instead of opening it up by having options. You dont have to mythic raid, you dont have to min-max your 20 spells, but for those who enjoy that, you can do it. But you'll get by just fine by not doing it as well and play lower difficulties. I'm pretty sure people would not flock back to modern WoW by doing these changes. Asmongold usually have somewhat good takes but I dont think hes thought this one through.
Ulduar hard mode would be to hard for 40man raids you could barely find 25 people that could do it. For 40 man raids somewhere between black temple and sunwell would be ideal.
If you could get 40 people together for Ulduar HM's I think it would be easier than BT. Most of WOTLK's raid challenges were organizational whereas TBC's mechanics were more punishing if mistakes were made and deaths could stack up. Eredar twins for example were more challenging than anything in Ulduar (minus Algalon) after the XT nerf.
@@theoutlander1411 I’m not sure we even played the same game. I never found anything in tbc as challenging or punishing as wotlk raids. A single mistake on lich king from just one player and it’s a wipe.
@@zdubzz1280 Well I'm talking Ulduar specifically, there really isn't anything like the Eredar twins in it. It's pretty easy to make some of the mistakes on that fight that cause a wipe to the rdps but in Ulduar they mostly aren't there. I think XT may be the closest if you don't run out but that's more on the organizational end, once that mechanic is explained and experienced its hard to make that same mistake again. ET it can be easy for someone to mess up and kill a chunk of the DPS. It could be based on our different experience with our respective guilds and how they handled things. In WOTLK I felt like once we downed a boss twice we never messed up again whereas with TBC someone making a slight mistake was more punishing.
@@theoutlander1411 All I see is a pathetic TBC fanboy trying to praise TBC based on his experience. You basically got unlucky during TBC for not finding good people and got lucky during Wotlk for finding good people. Saying that TBC raids were harder just because you wiped more it a stupid reason.
Besides 40 man raids I agree with Asmond he still has the classic mindset when WOW was one of the top games having a huge player base to pull in from for raids that's not the case now at all. I think flexible raids are the best thing to happen to WOW I can't count the times we had to force people to step out to reach the 10/25 player limit and I could never be one to step out because everyone was like we need your dps so I had to feel bad always taking a spot. I'd also say professions in retail also need overhauled its complicated for the sake of being complicated not fun at all.
The thing is for asmon clasic was the best because he was in school and have time to play, for other ppl dragoflith is the best etc...dont you se the irony?the thing is no matter what blizzard chage on retail some ppl will always hate some will alwas love, and btw wow haves over 7 mil subscribers now.
as long as executives have a say in the final design of the game the game will never be fixed. Classic's team has had more leeway in design (since Classic was an overwhelming fucking success) hence SoD being successful. Hopefully they can turn what theyve learned in SoD into a true fully fledged classic plus
You say that but they showed the subscriber count at GDC and it's over 7 million subbed, if you think even half that is people playing Classic your day dreaming.
Classic is whats holdingnthe numbers up. We dont know the exact numbers. But by all measureable numbers, classic is more popular. Vanilla obviously saved the game. Thats without a doubt as numbers skyrocketed above legion numbers. By tbc and wrath its dropped off alot. However, the numbers with both classic and retail mixed in for both SL and DF are still super low. So imagine if classic was removed from the mumbers. You are looking at 3m or less players. I put my money on 2m. @QuantumSplitter
Something that asmon doesn't have is Data. It's crazy how someone with a spot at a budding game production company thinks that the only metric that plays in what's going on is the addons or the runback to the bosses being long.
That’s the point. You can bring 40 under-average players and clear it anyway. With more numbers, more people can die or do bad dmg, because the strength is in the numbers, not the completion of mechanics or dmg checks.
1. Challenge is no longer a virtue. 2. Patience is a thing of the past. 3. Skill is secondary to gear. 4. Failure is not an option. 5. Group play is a thing of the past. 6. Risk is a four-letter word. 7. Homogenization is the norm. 8. Creativity is stifled. 9. The game world is a theme park but don't hold hands. 10. Cooperation and collaboration are seen as relics of a bygone era. 11. Most people think the game is a job. 12. Apparently the developers are the enemy. 13. The game is disposable. This is what the negative bias that happens in circles that churn opinion as objective facts and dwell around it for too long. I am being as callous he is. Seeing the shitters in SoD have a powertrip and ask for logs is right down pathetic.
@sinnis4993 facts are it's been around 20 years still the number 1 mmo out and made more money off haters like u then you will ever make in your life lmao that enough facts for ya bud smh ppl really jealous they suck at a game an can't invited to the raids so they hate it just get better not hard
@sinnis4993 also something that's been dying for 20 years 19 years according to you and still is a popular as it is isn't considered dying u must not know the definition of dying bud lmao
I agree with most. I do like smaller raids. Also LFD I don't takes away from the social experience like people claim, as other games with it are still very social (FFXIV for example.) LFR maybe. The over complexity, the need for mods, the insanity of mods, 100%.
The first thing Max said was just confrontational and also kinda devalues the whole discussion with the "im outnumbered here" meaning that even if he was objectively wrong (which he isnt) its because of fan boys rather then the quality of the arguments. I would say Asmon is correct however I fully agree with the retail community wanting the game to stay the same, i wouldn't like retail players making demands for Classic content.
Not sure how this is massively different from Wildstar. Guessing the aesthetic is pretty different. Game play was very similar to WoW though. Had 8 skills If I remember right, had 40 man raids and the difficulty was around Ulduar I'd say, at least the 20 man raid. 40 man raid did have a really hard first boss but like 20 guilds ever did it anyway
As a lurker of the wow community: remove addons, streamline the content and simplify classes. Gotta say im not a asmon fan by any means but he has some good points. I just skip over games nowadays that have +30 different usable skills. Its 2024, theres no need for it, you can still express mechanics/skills with a simplified kit (look at league of legends).
These days they get mad at you on the forums and hide your comment if it is anything negative about the game at all. They want you to just shut up and pretend you love it all. That hurts the game. Our complaints are what they USED to use to make the game good.
I am a retail player and miss that wow are funn to play. I am agree that it got to many addons in WOW and if you dont understand weak auras or dont know how to use addon, you will never be the best player in wow. Are missing to play the wow, but is hardcore grinding on the gear, mounts, pets and gold etc(or the rating inflation in solo shuffle) PPL are fleeing from the game for years and years now, I do always hope that blizz will wake up and change over the whole retail wow
It makes me sad that people can't stop making bad arguments, and even worse when the other side assumes that is the only argument and dismisses the whole thing out of hand.
I 100% agree with Asmon. I NEVER played WoW before because my first mmo was Runescape in 2001 and when I tried WoW for thew first time I only lasted for like 10 hours and quit.
@@Manderenn Indeed, an actual era (progression locked to tbc) server. Right now there is no way to play tbc on official, but vanilla classic and wotlk are available (and SoD and hardcore, of course). Tbc expansion content in wotlk doesn't count, the talents, skills, and some game mechanics (merged spell damage and healing bonus, itemization etc) are not what tbc had if you are revisiting outlands in wotlk.
They are high skilled and have their whole days to cultivate an audience that is impressed by their skills and ability to manage 23 addons that give them even more of an advantage. If the classes get pruned, if the game is easier and more fun for the masses, how do they stand out? You're damn right their careers depend on wow being the way it is now. Formulaic, addon required for high end content and bloated.
40mans are fine but with something like SoD its not. Most guilds are averaging around 10 members. Plus the amount of gate keeping you have going on with pugs, unless you are able to friend up multiple guilds into co-runs and the more they push 20mans and soon to be 40mans come p4 im sure you will have a huge content engagement drop.
I believe Blizzard is listening to player feedback more than they ever have. The "My opinion should be held sacrosanct" mentality via Twitter is toxic and I think Blizzard has done that for their own game long enough for us to see why that approach will get us nowhere!
This whole conversation feels like both sides are operating under the premise that there is a zero-sum competition between Classic and Retail. But that isn't true - Blizz has been running 2 MMOs (or 4, if you consider how we now have Era, SoD and Wrath/Cata simultaneously with Retail). Clearly Blizz is more comfortable with trying out new things and experimenting. As long as they aren't running like 12 versions of the game, the risk of fractionating the playerbase is low. Asmon's ideas are basically just Classic but paring back a bit of the tryhard qualities like addons, parses, etc. If anything, removing addons and especially parses/logs would be MORE like how Classic was back in 2004 for the vast vast majority of players. Blizz should give it a shot on 1 server at some point. I would definitely come back for it. As for the Retail mythic raiders on Twitter, I very much get the impression that they view an intentional dumbing-down and casualization of Retail as inherently a threat to their existence and what makes them special. Clearly some of them have built their identities off of their skill at the game. And that's fine honestly, that's what MMOs are fundamentally - a time sink to ascend a hierarchy from the ground up, which is especially attractive when real life isn't going so well. Or when real life is boring, or unfair. But the fact that guy is saying stuff like "this needs to stop" as if it's some existential threat and Blizz can't possibly grow the Classic team while also maintaining the current Retail team's size suggests he feels personally affronted when he really has no right to be---unless, of course, he has sunk so much of his sense of identity into the game that he feels it's an attack on him just to criticize Retail...
Retail is a gutted husk of the game many of us played. In classic leveling is fun and you never know what you will see to get to 60. Meanwhile retail is like shut up here is max level now join Disneyland where every tier we rush you through even if you didnt do any of the other content.
i hope asmongold someday plays Everquest on a TLP. because i feel like he would actually enjoy it even if the game is not streamable. i think anyone who is burnt out with retail wow should go play EQ for like, a month. it'll be a pallet cleanser and it might show you a new prospective on MMOs.
The only one of them I dont agree with is 40 man raids. Going back to classic ans trying to get 40 players on board to do soemthing is a pain in the ass. I see nothing wrong with 10 and 25 mans to me the smaller the raid group the tighter nit your guild and raid team is and it makes it much easier to get everyone on the same page.
Carried is common in video games. Asm Has opinion on everything in the world. Even random stuff that is dumb, that's why I stopped watching him years ago, but it does show you that you can became famous being a slob on camera for a single video game if you post everyday, and don't care what others have to say. I still remember the fat Cartmen southpark that is a reference to wow slobs.
I have played wow dragonflight since season 3, did 3k score on m+, did hc raiding, then quit, im playing sod now, also in this past year i did an hc run till 60, now im starting leveling on wotlk so i can try cataclysm, all to keep my self away from retail wow. I guess my opinion dosent metter too😂
Retail is where it's at and Classic is where it's at. Regardless it's good to hear other folks opinions, though I don't agree on all points with Asmon on this the add-on thing is a winner. Since when was someone having an opinion over a game some sort of crime. Want my opinion take wow remove everything including the lore and replace it with Hello Kitty Island adventures with nothing to do but Archeology and cooking. If that ruffles your feathers then sorry you have an issue here's a tissue. Also add flying monkey mounts.
i played retail since tbc, although i dont always agree with some views i agree with the add ons and spells comment he makes however the 40 man raids i dont agree with some guilds community have trouble getting 10-20 people together these days to raid, but i do agree the raids arent really fun any more the last time i raided properly on a rota was in legion in mythic progression raid i didnt find it fun even though i loved legion and mythic progression raiding killed raiding for me in its entirety i dont bother with raids anymore i want to have fun not be stressed for hours on end just my view.
They're having that reaction to asmongold because they agree with him deep down and are struggling to come to terms with it and don't have the tools to do so.
Asmon should just reply to these people with a screenshot of his /played and a comment with something snarky like "Sorry, you're not allowed to talk about this unless you have atleast X hours" I guarantee he has more played on his main than these people who fotm reroll for each tier minmaxing.
The kids nowadays are not interested playing a game where they have to pay a monthly sub. Most people I ask about the game they stop listening when I say you have have to pay each month.
Nobody reasonable said he wasnt allowed to have an option they just said his opinions are terrible. The majority of it is just extreamly out of touch and not at all what players acually want
The only addons that I could agree to remove are combat addons, DBM and Details for example. Using WA to show class CDs in a different way is fine. Addons like Vudoh that add QoL to healing also are fine, you take something like this away and healers will vanish, no way I am healing with the default UI. Having only 40 man raids? Fuck off, raids that large are dog shit. Less difficult dungeons and raids? Retail has less difficult tiers, not everyone needs to complete ultra hard content. I don’t clear mythic raids and I don’t care. Less buttons? Sure some abilities should be removed, but there are easy to play classes also.
Out of all my time raiding I have to say flex raids were my favorite, and only thing that I felt was good during MoP. Would be a cool addition to retail and classic. Alot of times its harder to coordinate 40 mans. Atleast with flex, all sorts of folks with all sorts of friend groups get to raid. Making shit accesible, and also not trivial is where the Balance must be met.
If Asmongold quits then that means there is about 15-70k people that regularly watched randomly twitch stream everyday of week to reconsidering how they spend their time online. He is almost like cult leader so these people might quit wow. There is some type of burnout feeling involved when patch has 6 months that farming takes over 3 months to get and nothing else to do.
Dude lets be real there is no way blizzard will bring back 40 raids, in a world where ppl are asking for 10 man raids...and retail is ok as it is with the m+ and raid format , m+ is one of the most popular pve content retail has ever had , it will not change for some ppl who left the game, the ones who left will never come back no matter what blizzard changes.
He gets backlash because he misrepresents the current aspects of the game he claims he dislikes in order to critique them and then makes suggestions based on that warped perception he has, he even admittedly said he stopped raiding in Legion, for him to have actual critique of the current state of Mythic raiding he would have to play it (a lot of things have changed since legion), that disconnect is evident by the amount of people who point it out, he's being attacked for misrepresenting a large amount of the current content and player base not because of his opinion, everyone has an opinion that's never been controversial.
I understand why some people are upset about his first 2 arguments. But there is no way, that even the sweatiest players don't see how addons are ruining the game.
he is right. Dota has 4 abilities and it still more complicated than wow. 10 spells is reasonable. I know its an mmo but if you can combined 10 spells in sets of 4 there are still too many combos to test for any one person.
Esports has had the most negative impact on games like WoW. PvP was already toxic af and the continued pressure on PvE players to switch over to PvP (in the form of mog and mount rewards) has led a lot of players to quit or at the least ignore all of the PvP aspects of the game. The problem children of WoW changing for the better are players that reach high ranked PvP status (PvP dog elitism) and longtime players that play all day every day in their mom's basement screaming that "it doesn't fit the lore" (story puritanicalists) or "they weren't here for that" (AOTC hound elitism). Eventually things change, but a net negative change is always being called for by the previously mentioned groups of players. Newsflash!!!! Stories evolve and grow, people hate missing out on fun they could potentially have and PvP (or at least it's associated toxicity) just needs to go altogether.
He's mostly correct, I just think the 40 man raids only thing is dumb. And I like 40 man raids, I just think flex is the only smart option for the game, for all difficulties. 20 man only mythic was one of the worst ideas the devs have ever had, and the playerbase was delusional enough to defend them for it.
I agree with you. Asmon isn't always right (of course no one is), but on this one I'm in agreement with him, EXCEPT 40-man raids. Not so sure I can agree on that.
40man raids give it so much better atmosphere and just overall make it feel a lot cooler. I started playing the game in BFA, played WoW for prob around 5k. hours and I quit at the start of dragonflight losing all hopes for the game. Half of the game is gatekeeping people treating it like its a job interview and you need to show them 10years work of experience just to kill 1 boss or run 1 dungeon. Making it all 1 difficulty somewhere in between hc and mythic would go along way. Focusing on the 1% players really aint it, your average players WoW experience right now is absolutely atrocious. Removing some addons might be beneficial so you dont have to balance all the fights around them but totally removing it seems just stupid, I want my UI to look the way I want it to and not have to deal with the default mess. Also I would strongly believe there are addons helping people with disability to even play the game. Also details is like half the fun, even in version like classic or ff14 or gw or any of these games. Its so much less enjoyable and just braindead button mashing if you dont focus on doing as much damage as possible. Not having it really takes away a lot of the fun for me.
I am an SoD enjoyer and I downloaded retail WoW for the first time since the 2nd patch of Shadowlands, which isn't even that long ago. The game had me click a button on my old character to "set me up" to start playing. I opened the game and had to read a ton of spells, saw talent trees that were filled out for me with no idea how to change specs and had no direction on where I should go and what I needed to do other than a quest to find some "trader currency". I logged out and I'm sure I won't go back and I played WoW off and on since TBC. It's insanity what's happening in retail and new players are not going to pick it up.
As a heavy retail and only played classic vanilla guy, asmon is far off. The real goal is to bring the classic community back to retail how they do that is a miracle but gutting m+, the classes, and mythic raiding ain't it.
if you guys genuinly believe that 40man raid will safe wow, you are just mentally not fit. we barely manage to have 20 people for mythic raiding. asmon is the biggest meme in wow and he should be completely ignored when it comes to game balancing. he doesnt know shit.
People who enjoy classic are supporting one side and people who enjoy retail are supporting the other side. There will be no reconciliation between these 2 opinions. Personally, I will just continue playing Classic since its easier and requires less of a time commitment.
Taking into account all the issues WoW retail have. I think Asmongold not playing the game because he just not interested. Not because the game is bad. He says the classic is the best (WoW) game. Does he play it? No. Does he play SoD? No. Why? Because he just not interested. He wants a completely new game with Warcraft theme skin, but it doesn't mean he will play it.
My 8 year old nephew, the next generation of gamers, isn't going to be excited to get into WoW because of less abilities, no mods and 40 man raids. This is classic-andy-copium masquerading as accessibility because they think the game just needs to be easier in terms of mechanical skills but harder in terms of social skills in maintaining a big active guild - which unsurprisingly is effortless to someone like Asmon when you have an entire army of people ready to do whatever he says. Ya know what excites new players? Plunderstorm. The feeling of not being lightyears behind players in terms of the collection of lived experience, achievements, toys, mounts, transmogs, pets, knowledge of mechanics echoed over every expansion, etc. Why does that work? because it's basically a new game entirely where that huge "collection" no longer exists or means anything, and new players feel like they're on equal ground in new exciting uncharted territory.
This comment section is staggering. It boggles my mind that so many people seem to just echo sentiment that is so blatantly out of touch. I’m a retail player who started casually in season 3 of Shadowlands and started playing the game a lot in Dragonflight. I am acutely aware of the new player experience and I’m now a 2 time CE player, 1600-2000 rating PvP player and a 3k IO mythic plus player. There are so many reasons to not like asmongold, but the easiest reason is that he just likes to stir the pot. There’s nothing wrong with having an opinion, however when you’re ignorant of the level of influence you have you’re bound to cause problems. There is plenty of things that retail is apt to receive criticisms about, like almost any other game out there. However these “solutions” Asmongold believes are so simple and easy are insanely out of touch, maybe besides the addons. Addons don’t need to permanently go but they should be reigned in. 40man raids is the most insane boomer take I’ve ever seen/heard about with this game. I obviously did not play during the time when they existed, however if any single person in this comment section DARED to try to get 20 people to commit to showing up at the same time to just raid normal or heroic, let alone mythic raid. Clearly it’s ignorance driving that talking point as there is no possible way anyone who cares remotely about retail would ever want that, if anything we want LESS people in raid groups. Asmongold is out of touch with the game, and he doesn’t give a shit about it. He is a parasitic being now that just moves to whatever he can farm interaction with. He doesn’t care about the game as he’s obviously moved on from it. He’s just making throw away comments that get clipped and go viral because of his drone like fans who also don’t play the game or care about it, just to create discourse. Its shameful.
Retail and Classic don't need to be more like each other. They offer different experiences for different player bases. And it seems like the MMO market overall is tighter than in its golden era as a genre. Fewer players. More options.
Asmongold is right. As a huge wow fan, i can't stomach retail (and haven't for years) addons are a plague, blizzard needs to redo the UI. They really need to squish abilities into 10 or so like asmon says. Needing a dozen plugins to time your shit to play is a joke. I played retail for a month in dragonflight and i dont even know what the dungeons look like, as i was staring at 50 different squares and timers letting me know how to play, and if i didnt have that i would be screwed. People cried when they first level squished, now its been done a few times. Squish the abilities, people will cry and be upset, and guess what they are so sweaty they will keep playing anyway. You might even get some actual MMO players back instead of actionRPG andies
Instead of all raids being 40 mans, I would want a minimum of 20 to a flex to 40 max, therefore they can still scale bosses to the 20 like mythic now and people can still contest of they need more people, however I can see this work both ways. As in make raids for 40 mans and flex the difficulty to if people can only raid with less than 40 people. Saying basically only true downs of bosses done right are by those guilds with 40 man raids.
in the end its never going to feel like a "world of warcraft" as long as we keep doing seasonal content and making gear from old raids irrelevant , the best thing they could do for the game is making level cap increases very rare to non existent get rid of item level and just give us a never ending season , It will never be a "world" if every spec only has one tier set and were only ever progressing one raid at a time, I think we need to get rid of the idea of any content dying how cool would it be if we could go to every raid in the game and they all have different tier sets that are just as relevant as the others I mean why were we ever making gear not matter it seems like a waste, the warglaives of azzinoth should always be the warglaives of azzinoth not just a transmog. Guilds should have to come together on raid nights and decide which of the 58 raids wow has to offer they want to do and all of the gear from them should matter in different ways and situations.
If anything I would say the opinion of Max is invalid, for the simple reason that it is his job. His whole world revolves around WoW being as competitive as possible. It's no longer a game to have fun in, it is a sweaty job you can make a living out of. I want to listen to the guy that wants the game to be fun.
World of Warcraft, the game that everyone views you as nothing but a number. Wanna do the content? Gotta have the logs. Wanna get the logs? Gotta do the content. No wonder new players don't stick around cause instead of doing the content, they're getting the esports treatment.
Even for classic, I wish there were no addons. If some functionality is essential for the game, it should be included in the main package. Otherwise, it is just trivializing the content.
In retail killing a boss after hours of progression doesn't give a spike of dopamine anymore, but instead its just a relief. Something has to change, i know dozens of people i raided with in the past. They just quit long time ago, same as me
hours? try days buddy.
My guild wipes on hard bosses for well over a month normally. And not just because we have a lot of mistakes being made by a small number of people over and over and over again. That is an aspect of it, but it's far from the whole picture.
You're right about the dopamine though.
I killed Mythic Jailer, what did I feel, relief that it was finally over.
Same with Sylvanas, Raz.....
I think this happens independently of the game. I have the same experience in Dark Souls though. I used to challenge run dark souls. I have spent weeks on a boss fight in the past and the feeling of finally getting the kill was amazing. These days I don't get the same satisfaction from it.
It's a natural thing that could have more to do with the player than the game. But, it could also be the game, I don't know.
the last fight i remember having this spike of dopamine that is relevant in my memory till this day was shyvarra and antorus heroic in legion with my guild progression after months in it since then only the last boss of heroic of each tier raid gave me some dopamine but not even close to that of shyvarra not even with pugs that are suppose to be harder/more stressfull it dont give me that joy, just a relief.
cause they replaced the adventure feeling with esport meta raiding
new expacs are just uninteresting furry trash and SL was just cringe
I literally quit playing WOW because of this exact issue. Having only ever made one ticket in the 15 years I played I talked to whoever answered my ticket and they didnt even think I was making a valid ticket and told me that no one plays like that and made me feel so inferior to them I pretty much let him know I would never ever give him a cent of my money ever again.
I agree with Asmongold that there is too many raid difficulties that makes game scaling go crazy every other expansion and it's not really fun to see your character do less dmg then ten years ago. What i would do instead is... i would add invidual rating based on ppl performance in lfr. So players could see some improvements. I would even give people some nice title or transmog if they did well. I would add bots to LFR if there is not enough players. Then i would add scalable difficulty raid similiar to flex raids we had in mop. This difficulty should be much higher then lfr but nothing crazy so it could be done with any setup. Make these raids scalable from 10 to 40 players. This way everyone in your guild can play and noone is left behind. Everyone can get good gear and everyone is happy. Then implement mythic raids that don't reward gear but trangmog, titles and mounts. Make this difficulty crazy hard. Harder then what we have now. Gear progression should be something like this: quest rewards/leveling dungeons>hc dungeons/lfr>mythic dungeons/flex raids. Raid rewards are 10%ilvl higher then dungeons/quest rewards. IMO Blizzard is feeding players with too much garbage that keeps players busy but this only makes game worse. I think for casual players endgame should be mythic dungeons not raids. Also mythic raiders should not be forced to waste their time on split runs but playing hardest difficulty. This improves game for everyone.
Since Max said he wanted some retail players opinions here is one. As a 2800 M+ IO player and AOTC guild leader of a small friends and family guild, I agree with Asmon on most things here. I prefer smaller groups so I don't think I'd like the 40-person raids, but I don't like Add-ons or all the complicated interactions between abilities. I really enjoy watching the RWF, but as a player I would prefer the simpler life.
Retail players are massive victims of the sunk-cost fallacy.
glad to see this years old convo picking up more steam
Asmo is right 100% on this. World of Addons, World of the Last Patch, World of 1000000 Buttons to Push, World of Parses. Meh. No thanks, yoloing SOD for now.
Meanwhile everyone in SoD is gatekeeping raids asking for purple logs and tryhard parsing a fucking LFR difficulty raid. Its hilarious. I swear, this is coming from someone with 20 cutting edge on retail in top 150 ranked guilds. The people in classic care more about parsing than any guild I have been in in retail. The difference between players in classic and retail is intelligence, nobody likes to hear it but that's the truth.
Who in the hell does he think is keeping WOW going? It is the sweatiest of the sweaties for the last 20 years that have been playing the game. Blizzard does not acknowledge Asmongold anymore. I think his feelings are hurt lol.
retail sux, its not even a game anymore. Buy gold for money, buy boosts get all the loot , done
if raids scaled to 40 cool but making them only 40 means that my guild of 15-20 raiders that have been raiding since bc wont be able to raid any more.
Think it needs to scale. Otherwise we're regressing back to the same cyclical conversation when Vanilla -> TBC went from 40 -> 25.
I don't think it's the solution though, the communal culture of meta'ing through the path of least resistance is always the elephant in the room and the root of anything introduced.
Then better start recruiting.
We need class pruning but also add more non combat abilities that add to the class fantasy like druid travel form or rogue pickpocket and lock pick
As an adult I support civil discourse and sharing ideas and opinions without resorting to calling someone I disagree with stupid.
10:40 - 11:10 that's where I'm at mentally also, Veteran players like us aren't going to put up with this stupidity and madness anymore @Staysafe, We know the drill ❤
IMO 40 man raids is the worst part of classic, I always play classic servers until 60 then quit because the raids are terrible. IDK why anyone would want them back they're such a pain in the arse to organise let alone the other problems they have. I think they should go the other way like SoD and have 10 mans be the raid size. Playing with friends is way more fun than playing with 20 odd people you're never spoken to and 10 that you barely know because the guild is so big.
I like 40 mans. Feels good to run them in a guild.
Would not pug a 40 man though (that being said I also don't pug 10, 20 or 25 mans, the only thing I pug is 5 man dungeons).
Important factor is that the current/younger audience are more privy to the 'in/out' philosophy that a lot of other games in the market offer. The audience that finds 40man preferable are typically an older audience that did them when younger, most have other shit to do irl now, so organisation becomes more a case of the stars aligning for everyone. It's a bummer, but yeah.
@@thareus20 I pugged 40 mans at classic launch and I enjoyed it a lot. You saw a lot of the same faces and you almost always got in even if you were just pre-bis etc.
@@merlylvsm i disagree. I am 23 and I love doing 40 mans.
@@thareus20 I didnt say you dont, I said realistically finding that time to free up for 40mans is a lot less easier than when most were younger. I dig 40mans too.
He´s Absolutely Right! In order to bring more players into the game, do the game have to be easy to understand and play without any obstacles. Addons are first obstacle people run into, because addons are a huge burden for many people. Then we have the spells, there are too many of them, and as the last thing, any group content in the game feels like its made for the hardcore players
So he wants to limit the game to a certain audience instead of opening it up by having options.
You dont have to mythic raid, you dont have to min-max your 20 spells, but for those who enjoy that, you can do it. But you'll get by just fine by not doing it as well and play lower difficulties. I'm pretty sure people would not flock back to modern WoW by doing these changes.
Asmongold usually have somewhat good takes but I dont think hes thought this one through.
Ulduar hard mode would be to hard for 40man raids you could barely find 25 people that could do it. For 40 man raids somewhere between black temple and sunwell would be ideal.
If you could get 40 people together for Ulduar HM's I think it would be easier than BT. Most of WOTLK's raid challenges were organizational whereas TBC's mechanics were more punishing if mistakes were made and deaths could stack up. Eredar twins for example were more challenging than anything in Ulduar (minus Algalon) after the XT nerf.
@@theoutlander1411 I’m not sure we even played the same game. I never found anything in tbc as challenging or punishing as wotlk raids. A single mistake on lich king from just one player and it’s a wipe.
@@zdubzz1280 Well I'm talking Ulduar specifically, there really isn't anything like the Eredar twins in it. It's pretty easy to make some of the mistakes on that fight that cause a wipe to the rdps but in Ulduar they mostly aren't there. I think XT may be the closest if you don't run out but that's more on the organizational end, once that mechanic is explained and experienced its hard to make that same mistake again. ET it can be easy for someone to mess up and kill a chunk of the DPS.
It could be based on our different experience with our respective guilds and how they handled things. In WOTLK I felt like once we downed a boss twice we never messed up again whereas with TBC someone making a slight mistake was more punishing.
Bro asmongold went for ulduar hardmode on stream, wipes on first boss and quit , he needs to shut up
@@theoutlander1411 All I see is a pathetic TBC fanboy trying to praise TBC based on his experience. You basically got unlucky during TBC for not finding good people and got lucky during Wotlk for finding good people. Saying that TBC raids were harder just because you wiped more it a stupid reason.
Besides 40 man raids I agree with Asmond he still has the classic mindset when WOW was one of the top games having a huge player base to pull in from for raids that's not the case now at all. I think flexible raids are the best thing to happen to WOW I can't count the times we had to force people to step out to reach the 10/25 player limit and I could never be one to step out because everyone was like we need your dps so I had to feel bad always taking a spot. I'd also say professions in retail also need overhauled its complicated for the sake of being complicated not fun at all.
Ya ur exactly right, and dumbing down the fights is pointless you can essentially just prog heroic if you want it easy
@@michaelmoran2125 People don't wanna do content that drops inferior loot.
@@MohawkPigeon there's no winning there they dumb the game down to pre legion levels it's just over.
@@michaelmoran2125 They need to add non power related rewards instead of better item level gear.
The thing is for asmon clasic was the best because he was in school and have time to play, for other ppl dragoflith is the best etc...dont you se the irony?the thing is no matter what blizzard chage on retail some ppl will always hate some will alwas love, and btw wow haves over 7 mil subscribers now.
as long as executives have a say in the final design of the game the game will never be fixed. Classic's team has had more leeway in design (since Classic was an overwhelming fucking success) hence SoD being successful. Hopefully they can turn what theyve learned in SoD into a true fully fledged classic plus
Im playing classic era for the last 3/4 years, and Im having a blast like I havent had for a long time. Maybe since Legion.
I would prune classes and have LFR-Heroic raiding only. Raiding would be flex 20-40man.
I think retail needs a full reset or something to be saved at this point
You say that but they showed the subscriber count at GDC and it's over 7 million subbed, if you think even half that is people playing Classic your day dreaming.
Classic is whats holdingnthe numbers up. We dont know the exact numbers. But by all measureable numbers, classic is more popular. Vanilla obviously saved the game. Thats without a doubt as numbers skyrocketed above legion numbers. By tbc and wrath its dropped off alot. However, the numbers with both classic and retail mixed in for both SL and DF are still super low. So imagine if classic was removed from the mumbers. You are looking at 3m or less players. I put my money on 2m. @QuantumSplitter
Lol retail has way more players and it's not even close
Something that asmon doesn't have is Data. It's crazy how someone with a spot at a budding game production company thinks that the only metric that plays in what's going on is the addons or the runback to the bosses being long.
I agree on his addon opinion for sure. The devs should be putting some of these things in the game rather than outside addons.
I agree with everything except the 40 man raids. Finding a minimum of 20 competent people is hard enough, let alone 40.
That's the beauty of classic, you need 40 people but you definitely don't even need 20 of them to be competent
That’s the point. You can bring 40 under-average players and clear it anyway.
With more numbers, more people can die or do bad dmg, because the strength is in the numbers, not the completion of mechanics or dmg checks.
It's just 40 so you can bring everyone. You probably don't even need them all.
Removing add ons and replacing with in game features is such a good idea
Also Asmong has been talking about this to for years not just after Plunder.
1. Challenge is no longer a virtue.
2. Patience is a thing of the past.
3. Skill is secondary to gear.
4. Failure is not an option.
5. Group play is a thing of the past.
6. Risk is a four-letter word.
7. Homogenization is the norm.
8. Creativity is stifled.
9. The game world is a theme park but don't hold hands.
10. Cooperation and collaboration are seen as relics of a bygone era.
11. Most people think the game is a job.
12. Apparently the developers are the enemy.
13. The game is disposable.
This is what the negative bias that happens in circles that churn opinion as objective facts and dwell around it for too long. I am being as callous he is.
Seeing the shitters in SoD have a powertrip and ask for logs is right down pathetic.
RaidOrDie, that is your mantra. The logic that brought retail to it's knees in WoD.
I would 100% love these changes. While I do love the harder difficulty content, I would not be opposed to these changes and would support them.
Nothing will bring people back to retail plain and simple, its slowly dying and it sucks for the players still riding it out.
Well it's 20 years old noting last forever had a good run
L take. Retail is dying since 2005. Stop commenting with emotions can start with facts. /s (for the not so smart people)
@sinnis4993 facts are it's been around 20 years still the number 1 mmo out and made more money off haters like u then you will ever make in your life lmao that enough facts for ya bud smh ppl really jealous they suck at a game an can't invited to the raids so they hate it just get better not hard
@sinnis4993 also something that's been dying for 20 years 19 years according to you and still is a popular as it is isn't considered dying u must not know the definition of dying bud lmao
meh i disagree.
I agree with most. I do like smaller raids. Also LFD I don't takes away from the social experience like people claim, as other games with it are still very social (FFXIV for example.) LFR maybe. The over complexity, the need for mods, the insanity of mods, 100%.
The first thing Max said was just confrontational and also kinda devalues the whole discussion with the "im outnumbered here" meaning that even if he was objectively wrong (which he isnt) its because of fan boys rather then the quality of the arguments. I would say Asmon is correct however I fully agree with the retail community wanting the game to stay the same, i wouldn't like retail players making demands for Classic content.
Not sure how this is massively different from Wildstar. Guessing the aesthetic is pretty different. Game play was very similar to WoW though. Had 8 skills If I remember right, had 40 man raids and the difficulty was around Ulduar I'd say, at least the 20 man raid. 40 man raid did have a really hard first boss but like 20 guilds ever did it anyway
As a lurker of the wow community: remove addons, streamline the content and simplify classes.
Gotta say im not a asmon fan by any means but he has some good points. I just skip over games nowadays that have +30 different usable skills.
Its 2024, theres no need for it, you can still express mechanics/skills with a simplified kit (look at league of legends).
These days they get mad at you on the forums and hide your comment if it is anything negative about the game at all. They want you to just shut up and pretend you love it all. That hurts the game. Our complaints are what they USED to use to make the game good.
I am a retail player and miss that wow are funn to play. I am agree that it got to many addons in WOW and if you dont understand weak auras or dont know how to use addon, you will never be the best player in wow.
Are missing to play the wow, but is hardcore grinding on the gear, mounts, pets and gold etc(or the rating inflation in solo shuffle)
PPL are fleeing from the game for years and years now, I do always hope that blizz will wake up and change over the whole retail wow
It makes me sad that people can't stop making bad arguments, and even worse when the other side assumes that is the only argument and dismisses the whole thing out of hand.
25 man should be the cap. I hated 40 man raids it was always annoying. Note: This hate does come from vanilla. So i’m not opposed to trying.
I 100% agree with Asmon. I NEVER played WoW before because my first mmo was Runescape in 2001 and when I tried WoW for thew first time I only lasted for like 10 hours and quit.
I wish we'd get tbc era servers this summer. It's insane that there aren't any.
We literally just got classic tbc before wrath? The fuck you smoking dude?
Maybe he means he wants a tbc era server that doesnt progress into wrath. Just like there are classic era servers
@@Manderenn Indeed, an actual era (progression locked to tbc) server. Right now there is no way to play tbc on official, but vanilla classic and wotlk are available (and SoD and hardcore, of course). Tbc expansion content in wotlk doesn't count, the talents, skills, and some game mechanics (merged spell damage and healing bonus, itemization etc) are not what tbc had if you are revisiting outlands in wotlk.
Notice the players so actively against those changes are the ones who rely on wow as a career and further proves asmon's point.
They are high skilled and have their whole days to cultivate an audience that is impressed by their skills and ability to manage 23 addons that give them even more of an advantage. If the classes get pruned, if the game is easier and more fun for the masses, how do they stand out? You're damn right their careers depend on wow being the way it is now. Formulaic, addon required for high end content and bloated.
40mans are fine but with something like SoD its not. Most guilds are averaging around 10 members. Plus the amount of gate keeping you have going on with pugs, unless you are able to friend up multiple guilds into co-runs and the more they push 20mans and soon to be 40mans come p4 im sure you will have a huge content engagement drop.
I believe Blizzard is listening to player feedback more than they ever have. The "My opinion should be held sacrosanct" mentality via Twitter is toxic and I think Blizzard has done that for their own game long enough for us to see why that approach will get us nowhere!
This whole conversation feels like both sides are operating under the premise that there is a zero-sum competition between Classic and Retail. But that isn't true - Blizz has been running 2 MMOs (or 4, if you consider how we now have Era, SoD and Wrath/Cata simultaneously with Retail). Clearly Blizz is more comfortable with trying out new things and experimenting. As long as they aren't running like 12 versions of the game, the risk of fractionating the playerbase is low. Asmon's ideas are basically just Classic but paring back a bit of the tryhard qualities like addons, parses, etc. If anything, removing addons and especially parses/logs would be MORE like how Classic was back in 2004 for the vast vast majority of players. Blizz should give it a shot on 1 server at some point. I would definitely come back for it.
As for the Retail mythic raiders on Twitter, I very much get the impression that they view an intentional dumbing-down and casualization of Retail as inherently a threat to their existence and what makes them special. Clearly some of them have built their identities off of their skill at the game. And that's fine honestly, that's what MMOs are fundamentally - a time sink to ascend a hierarchy from the ground up, which is especially attractive when real life isn't going so well. Or when real life is boring, or unfair. But the fact that guy is saying stuff like "this needs to stop" as if it's some existential threat and Blizz can't possibly grow the Classic team while also maintaining the current Retail team's size suggests he feels personally affronted when he really has no right to be---unless, of course, he has sunk so much of his sense of identity into the game that he feels it's an attack on him just to criticize Retail...
I quit retail when it stopped being an MMO and became a racing game: Gran Autismo
Retail is a gutted husk of the game many of us played. In classic leveling is fun and you never know what you will see to get to 60. Meanwhile retail is like shut up here is max level now join Disneyland where every tier we rush you through even if you didnt do any of the other content.
i hope asmongold someday plays Everquest on a TLP. because i feel like he would actually enjoy it even if the game is not streamable. i think anyone who is burnt out with retail wow should go play EQ for like, a month. it'll be a pallet cleanser and it might show you a new prospective on MMOs.
You'd think blizz would want the opinions of people who don't play but would like a reason to come back
Either cater to a smaller group of ppl and milk them dry or go mass (or at least larger) appeal. The choice is up to Blizzard.
The only one of them I dont agree with is 40 man raids. Going back to classic ans trying to get 40 players on board to do soemthing is a pain in the ass. I see nothing wrong with 10 and 25 mans to me the smaller the raid group the tighter nit your guild and raid team is and it makes it much easier to get everyone on the same page.
Carried is common in video games. Asm Has opinion on everything in the world. Even random stuff that is dumb, that's why I stopped watching him years ago, but it does show you that you can became famous being a slob on camera for a single video game if you post everyday, and don't care what others have to say. I still remember the fat Cartmen southpark that is a reference to wow slobs.
I love Asmon, but it's obvious he has never healed or had to decurse in a raid.
thats why the mechanics needs to be easier so you dont need 5 addons to do a decurse without dyng to 3 mechanics while dbm is beepin lmao
you dont need addons in a game if the game is develop in a way you dont need addons bro
I did heal in DF with only details and weak auras in my ui, they put clique into the base ui now so ur good.
Then Blizzard should make UI better and encounters not reliant on bullshit.
@@sephrinx4958 they just did the ui overall it's probably as good as it will ever get. I can't imagine dumping that kind of money into the game again.
I have played wow dragonflight since season 3, did 3k score on m+, did hc raiding, then quit, im playing sod now, also in this past year i did an hc run till 60, now im starting leveling on wotlk so i can try cataclysm, all to keep my self away from retail wow. I guess my opinion dosent metter too😂
Retail is where it's at and Classic is where it's at. Regardless it's good to hear other folks opinions, though I don't agree on all points with Asmon on this the add-on thing is a winner. Since when was someone having an opinion over a game some sort of crime. Want my opinion take wow remove everything including the lore and replace it with Hello Kitty Island adventures with nothing to do but Archeology and cooking. If that ruffles your feathers then sorry you have an issue here's a tissue. Also add flying monkey mounts.
i played retail since tbc, although i dont always agree with some views i agree with the add ons and spells comment he makes however the 40 man raids i dont agree with some guilds community have trouble getting 10-20 people together these days to raid, but i do agree the raids arent really fun any more the last time i raided properly on a rota was in legion in mythic progression raid i didnt find it fun even though i loved legion and mythic progression raiding killed raiding for me in its entirety i dont bother with raids anymore i want to have fun not be stressed for hours on end just my view.
They're having that reaction to asmongold because they agree with him deep down and are struggling to come to terms with it and don't have the tools to do so.
Asmon should just reply to these people with a screenshot of his /played and a comment with something snarky like "Sorry, you're not allowed to talk about this unless you have atleast X hours" I guarantee he has more played on his main than these people who fotm reroll for each tier minmaxing.
I hate the WoW community, they don't realize that 90% of the player base has quit for a lot of the reasons Asmon talks about
The kids nowadays are not interested playing a game where they have to pay a monthly sub. Most people I ask about the game they stop listening when I say you have have to pay each month.
Nobody reasonable said he wasnt allowed to have an option they just said his opinions are terrible. The majority of it is just extreamly out of touch and not at all what players acually want
every, single item he said is NEEDED to revive WoW. otherwise, it's dead and will never come back.
The only addons that I could agree to remove are combat addons, DBM and Details for example. Using WA to show class CDs in a different way is fine. Addons like Vudoh that add QoL to healing also are fine, you take something like this away and healers will vanish, no way I am healing with the default UI.
Having only 40 man raids? Fuck off, raids that large are dog shit.
Less difficult dungeons and raids? Retail has less difficult tiers, not everyone needs to complete ultra hard content. I don’t clear mythic raids and I don’t care.
Less buttons? Sure some abilities should be removed, but there are easy to play classes also.
Coca-Cola should totally try a Blue can.
Out of all my time raiding I have to say flex raids were my favorite, and only thing that I felt was good during MoP. Would be a cool addition to retail and classic. Alot of times its harder to coordinate 40 mans. Atleast with flex, all sorts of folks with all sorts of friend groups get to raid. Making shit accesible, and also not trivial is where the Balance must be met.
If you like 40 mans cool. Invite them; boss health/dmg goes up according to players in raid. What do you think @staysafe @asmongold ?
the wow community is weird
If Asmongold quits then that means there is about 15-70k people that regularly watched randomly twitch stream everyday of week to reconsidering how they spend their time online. He is almost like cult leader so these people might quit wow. There is some type of burnout feeling involved when patch has 6 months that farming takes over 3 months to get and nothing else to do.
Dude lets be real there is no way blizzard will bring back 40 raids, in a world where ppl are asking for 10 man raids...and retail is ok as it is with the m+ and raid format , m+ is one of the most popular pve content retail has ever had , it will not change for some ppl who left the game, the ones who left will never come back no matter what blizzard changes.
Most People rejected his mesage.
They hated Jesus because he told them the truth.
He gets backlash because he misrepresents the current aspects of the game he claims he dislikes in order to critique them and then makes suggestions based on that warped perception he has, he even admittedly said he stopped raiding in Legion, for him to have actual critique of the current state of Mythic raiding he would have to play it (a lot of things have changed since legion), that disconnect is evident by the amount of people who point it out, he's being attacked for misrepresenting a large amount of the current content and player base not because of his opinion, everyone has an opinion that's never been controversial.
I understand why some people are upset about his first 2 arguments. But there is no way, that even the sweatiest players don't see how addons are ruining the game.
10 man raids and we’re talking.
40 man raids is the worst
I would rather them make a new game with those parameters rather than try to make WoW fit into them
he is right. Dota has 4 abilities and it still more complicated than wow. 10 spells is reasonable. I know its an mmo but if you can combined 10 spells in sets of 4 there are still too many combos to test for any one person.
Esports has had the most negative impact on games like WoW. PvP was already toxic af and the continued pressure on PvE players to switch over to PvP (in the form of mog and mount rewards) has led a lot of players to quit or at the least ignore all of the PvP aspects of the game.
The problem children of WoW changing for the better are players that reach high ranked PvP status (PvP dog elitism) and longtime players that play all day every day in their mom's basement screaming that "it doesn't fit the lore" (story puritanicalists) or "they weren't here for that" (AOTC hound elitism).
Eventually things change, but a net negative change is always being called for by the previously mentioned groups of players. Newsflash!!!! Stories evolve and grow, people hate missing out on fun they could potentially have and PvP (or at least it's associated toxicity) just needs to go altogether.
Asmongold was absolutely right. If you need addons to play in a raid then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game.
I like his suggestions. 40 man also gives the BEST gear.
The bald man cometh
retail players have to try and shit on classic.
classic players could careless that retail is a thing.
He's mostly correct, I just think the 40 man raids only thing is dumb. And I like 40 man raids, I just think flex is the only smart option for the game, for all difficulties. 20 man only mythic was one of the worst ideas the devs have ever had, and the playerbase was delusional enough to defend them for it.
I agree with you. Asmon isn't always right (of course no one is), but on this one I'm in agreement with him, EXCEPT 40-man raids. Not so sure I can agree on that.
40man raids give it so much better atmosphere and just overall make it feel a lot cooler. I started playing the game in BFA, played WoW for prob around 5k. hours and I quit at the start of dragonflight losing all hopes for the game. Half of the game is gatekeeping people treating it like its a job interview and you need to show them 10years work of experience just to kill 1 boss or run 1 dungeon. Making it all 1 difficulty somewhere in between hc and mythic would go along way. Focusing on the 1% players really aint it, your average players WoW experience right now is absolutely atrocious. Removing some addons might be beneficial so you dont have to balance all the fights around them but totally removing it seems just stupid, I want my UI to look the way I want it to and not have to deal with the default mess. Also I would strongly believe there are addons helping people with disability to even play the game. Also details is like half the fun, even in version like classic or ff14 or gw or any of these games. Its so much less enjoyable and just braindead button mashing if you dont focus on doing as much damage as possible. Not having it really takes away a lot of the fun for me.
I am an SoD enjoyer and I downloaded retail WoW for the first time since the 2nd patch of Shadowlands, which isn't even that long ago. The game had me click a button on my old character to "set me up" to start playing.
I opened the game and had to read a ton of spells, saw talent trees that were filled out for me with no idea how to change specs and had no direction on where I should go and what I needed to do other than a quest to find some "trader currency". I logged out and I'm sure I won't go back and I played WoW off and on since TBC. It's insanity what's happening in retail and new players are not going to pick it up.
Ofc you can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's a pertinent opinion.
As a heavy retail and only played classic vanilla guy, asmon is far off. The real goal is to bring the classic community back to retail how they do that is a miracle but gutting m+, the classes, and mythic raiding ain't it.
40 man - the best raid comp in wow. Huh? Its worst raid comp that exist and this is why it never happens again in pve.
No way! People get mad when one of the biggest gaming streamers, who supposedly loves wow, says some of the dumbest shit that would ruin the game?
If Addons is taken away i would just straight up quit. Simple and not a question about it, but hey thats me. 😁
if you guys genuinly believe that 40man raid will safe wow, you are just mentally not fit. we barely manage to have 20 people for mythic raiding. asmon is the biggest meme in wow and he should be completely ignored when it comes to game balancing. he doesnt know shit.
Coke tried "New Coke" but the people wanted Classic Coke. And Coke listened and doesn't offer New Coke. Is Blizzard listening ?
People who enjoy classic are supporting one side and people who enjoy retail are supporting the other side.
There will be no reconciliation between these 2 opinions.
Personally, I will just continue playing Classic since its easier and requires less of a time commitment.
Taking into account all the issues WoW retail have. I think Asmongold not playing the game because he just not interested. Not because the game is bad. He says the classic is the best (WoW) game. Does he play it? No. Does he play SoD? No. Why? Because he just not interested. He wants a completely new game with Warcraft theme skin, but it doesn't mean he will play it.
i think you are right, and to be fair he played wow his whole life.
My 8 year old nephew, the next generation of gamers, isn't going to be excited to get into WoW because of less abilities, no mods and 40 man raids. This is classic-andy-copium masquerading as accessibility because they think the game just needs to be easier in terms of mechanical skills but harder in terms of social skills in maintaining a big active guild - which unsurprisingly is effortless to someone like Asmon when you have an entire army of people ready to do whatever he says. Ya know what excites new players? Plunderstorm. The feeling of not being lightyears behind players in terms of the collection of lived experience, achievements, toys, mounts, transmogs, pets, knowledge of mechanics echoed over every expansion, etc. Why does that work? because it's basically a new game entirely where that huge "collection" no longer exists or means anything, and new players feel like they're on equal ground in new exciting uncharted territory.
This comment section is staggering. It boggles my mind that so many people seem to just echo sentiment that is so blatantly out of touch.
I’m a retail player who started casually in season 3 of Shadowlands and started playing the game a lot in Dragonflight. I am acutely aware of the new player experience and I’m now a 2 time CE player, 1600-2000 rating PvP player and a 3k IO mythic plus player.
There are so many reasons to not like asmongold, but the easiest reason is that he just likes to stir the pot. There’s nothing wrong with having an opinion, however when you’re ignorant of the level of influence you have you’re bound to cause problems.
There is plenty of things that retail is apt to receive criticisms about, like almost any other game out there. However these “solutions” Asmongold believes are so simple and easy are insanely out of touch, maybe besides the addons. Addons don’t need to permanently go but they should be reigned in.
40man raids is the most insane boomer take I’ve ever seen/heard about with this game. I obviously did not play during the time when they existed, however if any single person in this comment section DARED to try to get 20 people to commit to showing up at the same time to just raid normal or heroic, let alone mythic raid. Clearly it’s ignorance driving that talking point as there is no possible way anyone who cares remotely about retail would ever want that, if anything we want LESS people in raid groups.
Asmongold is out of touch with the game, and he doesn’t give a shit about it. He is a parasitic being now that just moves to whatever he can farm interaction with. He doesn’t care about the game as he’s obviously moved on from it. He’s just making throw away comments that get clipped and go viral because of his drone like fans who also don’t play the game or care about it, just to create discourse. Its shameful.
Retail and Classic don't need to be more like each other. They offer different experiences for different player bases. And it seems like the MMO market overall is tighter than in its golden era as a genre. Fewer players. More options.
Asmongold is right. As a huge wow fan, i can't stomach retail (and haven't for years) addons are a plague, blizzard needs to redo the UI. They really need to squish abilities into 10 or so like asmon says. Needing a dozen plugins to time your shit to play is a joke. I played retail for a month in dragonflight and i dont even know what the dungeons look like, as i was staring at 50 different squares and timers letting me know how to play, and if i didnt have that i would be screwed. People cried when they first level squished, now its been done a few times. Squish the abilities, people will cry and be upset, and guess what they are so sweaty they will keep playing anyway. You might even get some actual MMO players back instead of actionRPG andies
Instead of all raids being 40 mans, I would want a minimum of 20 to a flex to 40 max, therefore they can still scale bosses to the 20 like mythic now and people can still contest of they need more people, however I can see this work both ways. As in make raids for 40 mans and flex the difficulty to if people can only raid with less than 40 people. Saying basically only true downs of bosses done right are by those guilds with 40 man raids.
in the end its never going to feel like a "world of warcraft" as long as we keep doing seasonal content and making gear from old raids irrelevant , the best thing they could do for the game is making level cap increases very rare to non existent get rid of item level and just give us a never ending season , It will never be a "world" if every spec only has one tier set and were only ever progressing one raid at a time, I think we need to get rid of the idea of any content dying how cool would it be if we could go to every raid in the game and they all have different tier sets that are just as relevant as the others I mean why were we ever making gear not matter it seems like a waste, the warglaives of azzinoth should always be the warglaives of azzinoth not just a transmog. Guilds should have to come together on raid nights and decide which of the 58 raids wow has to offer they want to do and all of the gear from them should matter in different ways and situations.
If anything I would say the opinion of Max is invalid, for the simple reason that it is his job.
His whole world revolves around WoW being as competitive as possible.
It's no longer a game to have fun in, it is a sweaty job you can make a living out of.
I want to listen to the guy that wants the game to be fun.