I think the bottom three Spriest Boomkin and Elesham all bring great things to the raid, healing, Homies, Decursing, B Rez, Totems, Buffs. They will for sure help out and are worth bringing. That was not the case before when ranged hunters were way down the totem pole, and rogues were deemed not bringing enough by most raids.
Yeah shamans are like mana batteries for the whole group and spriest does dmg and off healing really nicely and boomkins add nice debuff to bosses.. They may not be at the top of charts but they support all the players that do top the charts it's a symbiotic relationship.. It'd be one thing if they were totally useless but their far from it
I do feel sorry for boomkins who has suffered through most of SoD raiding. Even the good ones we have fall behind rogues, warrior and those stupid melee hunters. I would say if this was just one phase then fine but it keeps happening to them.
This is SoD though noone went those classes to bring utility, homies or battle rez. Was supposed to be able to at least do decent damage and not worry about getting invited to raids. Though it's not to that point yet if they don't fix it people will quit and it will get worse.
It is the armor of the bosses. In P2 people were like "casters are great" as the bosses had twice the armor as normal. Now that armor values are normal, melee are back on top.
I think I agree with Aggrend here. Shadow priests are bottom of the pack in terms of raw dps, but they are also the most sought after dps class when people are looking for raids. I dont really think every class has to do the same amount of damage to be similar values to the raid, and I think thats what Aggrend means
The reason they are sought after is because not many people play them due to shit bottom performing. Also it is a "you only bring one of" classes, which drives their numbers lower. Hearing warriors bragging that they did 19k executes when that's 1/2 your overall boss damage dealt, feels bad.
The problem is Classic era is a version of the game where everything was designed around classes complimenting each other with bringing either tanking, raw damage, healing, or support elements. But in 2024, people have later iterations of the game in mind where the it’s been reduced to tank healer dps. The support elements are there, but also everyone wants to PUMP as the kids say, so people tend to only use meters and logs as the metric for whether or not your class does well
I hard disagree. Aggrend is right with warcraft logs not meaning shit. Shadow priest brings utility for raids but where they shine most is pvp. They put two dots on you and you die.
parse logic ruined the game... having people refuse to "waste" a global on a kick where someone dies just because its the difference from a 98 and a 99 who cares i loved to play wow not wowlogs
Exactly. It's not always about "BIG NUMBAS!", it's about the utility you bring to the group. And in PvP, if spriests are left free casting in the back, you will be dead before you know what hit you
5% cares about pvp.. 95% cares about pve. Guess which community wins. Also, in bgs ppl reach 6k+ hp easily with pvp gear. i highly doubt that 2 dots can kill them. Shamans can however melt you in 2-3 secs... Dots killing you in 20 secs is not really a huge win. And besides, dots can be overhealed, dispelled etc... they won't kill most of the ppl except ungeared rogues/warriors.
@@Straff_Dis i play bgs a lot.. i just dispell all those nasty dots + ambolish disease to everyone... SP can't do dmg at all... lmao Warlock is far better + more dangerous than SP... dispell protection and tons of instant/passive healing, fear spam and perma resist.
Although it kinda sucks to not top meters all classes are wanted. The classes that do the most dmg bring the least utility. Balance and spriests bring tons of utility.
Yes This! We are a casual Guild and got 6/8 in our 2nd ST Raid as we only raid once a week for 2hrs atm. Without Battle-Rezzes or the passive Heal from the shadow priests we would struggle for sure. Also our ret and prot pally are doing most of the cleansing at the 2nd boss and list can go on. People should realy stop only checking parse logs... usually u suceed or fail depending on how good ppl play the mechanics and this is how it should be.
What does balance bring? Innervate is useless as the shamanistic rage and paladin mana return buffs make it a wasted global. Brez has some use of your raid is bad. 3%crit buff is really not that much considering most caster are 40% or higher spell crit with world buffs. But hey, at least I get forced to be decurser in the raid because the other classes that can do better damage. You want raid utility? bring another tank! Some of them are currently out DPS balance/
The need to harp on S priest is a bit much, s priest right now is pretty optimal because It heals more than a healer and does more damage than an arcane mage
Yea its like looking at warcraftlogs in retail and saying aug Evokers are bad. It’s ok for a hybrid raid buffing DPS to not do the same DPS as a rogue in raid. We may have wrath runes but the base game is still classic, there’s much more to the game than DPS rankings on a 3rd party site
I had no idea about this aspect of s priest. Honestly is it really comparable to Aug. Like as a retail player there was a time when it was ur default 5th in a 5 man group.
Yes but it heals only 4 people , and putting your Spriest into the meele/tank group , you're pretty much cutting off a meele from there just for VE.. You're trading TONS of dmg in exchange for some VE healing. Not worth. And if VE is "SOOO GOOD" ( its not) , just nerf it to the ground and give Spriest normal dmg.
I have 5 toons at 50. The worst playstyle I have is my melee hunter. I seriously out dps our ranged but wish I could just change. It doesn't play like a hunter at all and I just watch my character do a lil spin every few seconds...
Melee hunter is and has been incredibly overtuned for a class pressing basically one button and having a pet do 35% of your damage and does deserve nerfs, but ranged hunter is in an exceptional state atm. Solid A tier dps and you provide the hardest, second most important melee buff after windfury. Not to mention the playstyle is engaging.
Solid take Matt. I think your closing point about time invested vs output hits the nail on the head. Some people just want to play a class whether it be lore / old character/ ect. It sucks to suck quite literally. You shouldn't feel defined by what classes are feasible vs junk
Rogues have very strong passive runes, I hope other classes get the same treatment. Just doing normal rotation along with these runes gives you insane damage buffs on top of World Buffs the class is very powerful.
I know. Like why the fk they keep showing shammy, hunter, mage, other classes in different specs but call warlock "DPS warlock". Warlock has 4 different DPS specs and only one is viable in sod, and even the only one that's viable is still shit.
They have so much versatility I would say they are too strong for all they bring to a raid and in pvp for their ability to heal and control with totems.
It’s definitely a lot of alliance players but there is definitely merit. Shams are much better than their alliance equivalent. They are insanely powerful in PVP and they are one of, if not the best, tank in many situations.
when you have a class with the most utility in the game by far and be faction specific, and then have it be so high on the dps charts especially in comparison to its faction counterpart. its pretty simple stuff but still shaman mains and FoTM rollers continue to gaslight that its fine lmao.
In PvP they are able to fully heal with 5 stacks of maelstrom no problem. Instant cast, no mana cost -- no problem. And it's so easy to generate stacks. Virtually impossible to take down alone, unless you can open with stuns as a rogue
I bet most of those who are crying now that it's not balanced are those who didn't take certain classes to Gnomer in P2 and now can't cope with experiencing the same thing.
As someone currently playing balance druid and putting a fair amount of effort into being prepared for raid, I bring nature and shadow protection potions, all elixirs i can stack, mojo flasks, all 3 WBs, Blasted Lands consumes, Resorative potions and Free Action Potions; I consider it a good parse right now if im above my warrior tanks.I get druid is a utility class but right now my class is simply brought for the fact that we can innervate and offer a 3% spell crit.
following up my previous post: seems to me (if you read my post and understood the problems i take issue with) that spell damage having no natural counter is a major reason armor is bad. the vast majority of damage in pvp comes from spells and dots because its simply easier to hit your target as a caster than it is as i.e a warrior. i suggest we clap two problems with 1 stone by making spirit - yes the character statistic called _SPIRIT_ useful. make it mitigate a percentage of spell damage depending on level difference, just like armor does. this chould be different from class to class as well, just like strength and agi work differently from class to class. this is just an example of what the board _could_ look like: mages, warlocks, priests:: 3% spell mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit. paladin/shaman/druid: 1% spell mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit. rogue/hunter/warrior: 2% mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit. (add/remove diminish returns and hard/soft caps where needed). paladin, druid and shaman have spells of their own, but they also have decent armor (in theory) and they can all heal, so 1% every 10 spirit seems like a good middle ground. mage, warlock and priest get 3% every 10 simply to make spirit more attractive for casters as their only other hard stat is intellect. casters are also handicapped enough as it is by their glass canon nature, so some more resistance against spell effects could go a long way... lorewise it also just makes more sense that a wizard would be better at standing his ground versus spells. rogue, warrior and hunter would get 2% every 10 spirit purely because they don't have spells and heals of their own, and they need more defense vs. spell damage in general. hunters may or may not need to be lopped in with the druid/shaman/paladin since they are a ranged class though. now spirit is more attractive across the board, yet not attractive enough for melee/hybrids to want to stack it in the same manner they go for i.e strength, intellect or agility, but enough to be just a little bit more than they had previously (which was nothing). you could also make this board on a point-by-point basis, so i.e 1 spirit = 0.2 spell mitigation or whatever... i simply found the model i used above a simpler illustration.
You're 100 percent right. Even if you were in 99th percentile dps lets say as a lock, now you're doing half the dps of a bottom 25% of hunter players that are semi afking in the raid.... I literally quit playing actively, and just log on for PVP once in while.
Hummm s priests can put 2 dots on you and walk away, if you are a class without a heal, your dead. This is what he means by WCL is not everything. Also take into consideration all the passive healing from the S priest. And raid utility of shamanistic rage. Amazing buffs that don’t show up on the WCL. You’re looking at the point of the pencil. Don’t forget about the rest of the shaft bro ❤
Honestly bad take. While I tend to disagree with Aggrend on a lot of issues, I do agree with his point about DPS meters not being the only metric for which to judge a class. Your examples about Shadow Priest and Elemental Shamans needing to 'suck it up' due to doing less damage than a Warrior or Rogue is disingenuous. Shadow Priests, Elemental Shamans and other similar classes are referred to as 'hybrid' classes for a reason. They bring utility that pure damage dealer roles like Warriors/Rogues simply do not. If you're advocating for Hybrid classes to be neck-and-neck with pure damage dealers, that is a recipe for disaster. Priests, Shamans, Druids, Mages and Warlocks will ALWAYS have a spot in the raid due to their unique buffs and debuffs as well as additional utility like soul-stones, totems and healthstones. Not to mention PVP, while SoD PVP is currently and will likely always be a joke, those same classes that are at the bottom of the raiding damage meters are currently the most oppressive classes to face in PVP. If you were to buff a Shadow Priest for example, you would be making them an absolute unstoppable monster in Battlegrounds.
enhance shaman brings the same utility but his dps is not getting punished.. Why? And VE is not worth -2k dps. Also, it is clear to me that u have never played battlegrounds or wargames against GOOD players. if u did , u would know that the best classes for that are : Mage, hunter , druid.. and then shaman, paladin, Priest ( dmg). Also there are a lot of ways to make spriest do dmg and not effect pvp at all. Like twisted fate ( just add mind spike in the tooltip) or better pve gear ( pve gear in this phase gives almost the same spellpower as last phase). In order to have an valuable opinion on the matter you need to have the knowledge about some facts first. Otherwise you end up with bad takes like the one YOU made. Staysafe on the other hand had a much better take than you.
Regarding Aggrend’s point about WCL; I do think people need to chill a bit regarding balance. He is right in that regard of “there’s more to the game than WCL graphs 100%. That being said; it does feel super bad just being stuck at the bottom because certain classes don’t just pump as well. Keep in mind, ST bosses all have a lot of movement mechanics, melee can move and attack, casters struggling to spam 3sec casts then have to move or die, which is definitely a factor I don’t see talked about much. I do think they need to do something to bring the bottom end of pack up to be more inline with the bulk majority of classes. That being said, someone is always gonna be “the last”. In the past we used to throw around the “hybrid tax” argument, which was fair. Pure DPS classes should do more dps than hybrids 100%. Now in SoD, I think every class is considered “hybrid”. Should S priests be the biggest pumpers with their utility they bring? I don’t think they should be an outlier, but that doesn’t mean they should be scrapping the bottom of the barrel so to say. Aggrend had a convo in the pally discord basically saying, “look we’re not 60 yet, we have more tunes coming, we have more and new itemizations coming as well. We can’t spend all our time fine tuning every spec when all the cards aren’t on the table”. Tbh I’d rather see dev time going into new content than constant balancing every week like retail. Let’s see what we get at 60, and let’s make fair adjustments when we got the whole picture. Yes it sucks being “the worst” at times for sure, but that’s how these games work, all classes are not equal, they all aren’t going to perform the same.
"Anyway, I'm sure this is going to get screenshotted and put on Reddit because it always does, but what I think I was trying and failed to say to jello was that we are in a weird spot with these level up phases where we are trying to move so so so fast with a relatively small team, and sometimes we have to just let stuff lie for a bit even if we don't like it. I was agreeing with him and saying that I really do want SoC playstyle to be on par with martyr, but I'm just not sure when we'd be able to move the needle enough for it to be satisfying. That's a hard thing to say on Twitter, but I feel bad about the tone of my reply so I'm trying to be a bit more real here now. In general, I think we really want to get to 60 and get all the Runes out, and then we can actually sit down when everone has all the cards on the table and start making larger moves to truly solidify things. Spending enormous time turning individual knobs to get every playstyle amongst every spec perfect every level up phase is time consuming and we always have to weigh where we are spending our time when the content is coming this fast. That said, we are working on our first truly beeft set of Phase 3 changes which we hope to have out soon. Will it fix everything every one of you wants to Ret? No. But there's some stuff in there I do think you'll like that should help step in the right direction" - aggrend
I agree with most you are saying here. However, it's worth mentioning that the raid is also very movement reliant which is why alot of the "I need to cast my spells" classes are falling behind (Boomkin, Ele shaman more than anyone). Following a boss as a melee hunter, warrior or rogue is never an issue, hence why they do well on most, if not all encounters. We know, if they don't make raid changes, that encounters at 60 will be more friendly towards this patchwerk playstyle. If they want class balance in lvl 50 and not butcher upcoming runes that might change the "bad" classes at 60, it would be implementing a raid aura giving spell damage increase inside of ST (10% ish?). For anyone doing pvp, giving flat SP buff to the classes will be horrifying outside of the raid. Getting dotted by a Spriest is enough to kill most non healing classes. Maybe I'm wrong, Food for thought.
I don't think shadow priest scales that well with raw shadow damage. In general, 1.5sec casts and instant casts benefit slightly less from spellpower damage than 3+ second casts. So, for example, mind spike only benefits from 43% of spellpower, whereas it should benefit 50%. The reason SP stacks green spellpower gear is because intellect is a useless stat.
Exactly with nature damage. Wrath for druids has, is, and will continue to be sub par due to it's poor scaling. A substantial buff here would help, but it's less than half of their rotation and represents a fairly small of their overall damage.
i play hunter, warrior, druid and priest. I can tell you one thing if they buffed balance and s priest world content and pvp would be even more horrible than it already is. World questing and anything else as a warrior is fucking horrible. Basically every other class dumpsters on us and questing is a nightmare. Balance and shadow priest fucking wreck in the open world and in pvp so if you want to blame anything or have it changed they need to go with the system that when in pvp values of abilities change so you aren't one shotting people or getting one shot. Otherwise its just an unwinnable battle.
They've been trying to do that by having runes and set pieces give debuffs that increase spell damage taken and such. But it has so far not had a substantial effect. I don't play warrior so I don't understand how the guy in my raid bragging about 19k executes is having a hard time questing...?
@@samanthabazemore7729 exception don't make the rule..for locks to top meters you had to setup raid LITERALLY just for logs. Means a warlock off tank, running a horrible spec only to boost the other lock, and mage running a bad spec only to boost the lock damage. I know cuz I did that one raid LITERALLY just to get that one 99.99 parse..... Doesn't mean u can do that DPS as a stand alone dps in regular raid. Melee hunter is #1 DPS half way afk regardless of raid make up.
I would like to see something for Holy Paladins like.. Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Lob onto the field healing whatever is in that area, except if there is a rabbit in the targeted area, it explodes. Put it on similar CD as Wild Growth is for druids. Maybe like 15 yard range, since it's 'throw distance'. Maybe they could use that divine sac,horn of lordaeron/aegis slots for a good holy paladin rune on those pieces.
Call me crazy, but I don;t think we should be balancing for the top 5% because most of us reading this aren't in the top 5%. When you look at averages, it's still pretty good, with paladins dropping off a cliff (hence why paladins are complaining so much).
I think one of the things is, the Melee Scaling is Huge! compared to Spell Scaling. I only say it's a scaling problem because it was like BFD Had items with up to par with End game stats, Gnomer had MC and BWL stats. So when you get spell damage it's not as big as getting AP for Melee. Even if you change a game wide .15 spell damage increase would do tons for all spell caster classes. But then they need to think about 60.
It wasn’t balanced last phase either I just waited my turn to shine as melee being a rogue I didn’t cry about it just kept playing didn’t cry when rogue was the last class people wanted in the raid with them I just found a squad and made it happen
Warriors should be top, can war solo aoe farm zf for example. Or max level can war solo maraudon/dme jump. One shot anyone in pvp? Only thing warrior is good at is once a week doing crazy raid dps.
remember when caster were top during Gnomer and nobody said a thing just "git gud" or reroll but when caster aint top of the logs then suddenly its a problem
Warriors/enh sham were at the top by the end of the phase. Melee hunters were at the top the whole phase. Spriest/boomie was at the bottom by the 3rd week with frost mage. Keep crying your false narrative though just cause you didnt get invited to pugs.
The best way they could help keep things balanced through out the phases, is to have spells scale with your lvl. They can also make it so that scaling stops when you need to learn the new rank. This way you still have to visit your trainer like normal.
If you are advocating for a 10% buff to casters in general I could get on board with that, but spriest/boomkin/ele sham bring so much to a raid other than their damage and all three are in a great place right now. Expecting hyper balance on numbers is going to send us right down the road to retail.
Only if they balance by homogenizing skills. Hunter/warrior/rogue are very different classes but perform similarly at the top. Surely other specs/classes can be adjusted up and retain their classes/specs uniqueness?
@@neologismx These people throw the word retail around with 0 clue what that means. You're right, homogenization is the issue and bringing dps spec's potential in line is good for the game so you dont have specs rotting at the bottom cause that leads to players quitting.
melee damage should be higher because we have to _get in melee_ to do our damage. every raid is anti-melee mechanically, thus the fact we have to move around equals out with the ranged not having to do that. i feel the same about armor in pvp.. its ridiculous how it basically have no influence. wayyyyy too many abilities and spells for it to be really useful, but even when its supposed to be useful (i.e against physical damage) there is barely a difference between hitting a leather user vs a plate user. the damage mitigation based on armor class should be way more significant from tier to tier, aka the difference between cloth and leather should be noticeable, currently they are pretty much same same. the difference between leather and mail should be even more noticeable and the difference between mail and place be relatively noticeable (but not as much as between cloth/leather and leather/mail). the 2 highest classes of armor should actually function like armor and not be a fancy cosmetic, whereas in my headcanon cloth is literally no armor except for a symbolic amount and leather only being a bit up the road from that. the idea that classes like enhancement shaman should be a glass canon in pvp is fucking stupid, because that's what CASTERS are supposed to be, not a frikkin' melee class.. the only exception to this rule is the rogue, and that's because they got a bunch of cooldowns to help them cope with their natural weakness against other - more armored - melee opponents. i honestly felt like dps shaman running way of earth in pvp was just where the survival needed to be. it was the ability to dish out way too much damage at the same time that made this look OP... after the way of earth nerf enhancement is back to being a glass canon in bis pvp gear... we still stomp on people in a gcd or two, but we also die to a gcd or two, and i absolutely hate how this feels... i would gladly take a dps nerf to get to a middle ground where i don't die before cheap shot or frost nova root runs out, but where i also have to actually put in a bit more effort to secure a kill, cus currently once i catch someone 8/10 times its a guaranteed kill, would be 10/10 if they never had their cooldowns up.
I’d like to see them tweak mind blast, so it does dmg based on the players intellect. Lower intellect players take more damage than players with high intellect and scales on intellect.
Cool flavor, but the reality of the game right now is if you play a "low intellect" class right now you cannot heal and you will guranteed die after the spriest has put their two dots on you, even if you manage to kill them (you won't).
Drop WCL to 75th% and there should be basically no crusader influence, and the chart doesn't change that substantially. It actually drives the "hybrid tax" further in most (non shaman) cases.
As a hunter main for 10 years, I would love to see more flavorful updates to BM and Survival such as new pets, pet abilities like Beastial Cleave and new traps. Why not Hunter pet taming challenges like we’ve seen in Firelands and MoP? Vanilla is my least favorite version of the game as a Hunter because the expansions such as Cataclysm just did Hunter better.
Well, I do understand the dev to some degree. These graphs show pure dps, but not where it is coming from. Rogues and warriors only perform so well if they have windfury buff, which neither of them can provide. Actually, rogues do not provide any buff at all. So while the rogue has a long bar, it would hurt the raid far more to kick a good buffer (shaman, druid, paladin) than a rogue. I guess that this is what the dev actually meant when he said theres more than these logs.
It depends on the fights. In phase two there were fights that benefited range. Phase three their fights that benefit melee. Plus it's not even end game yet, so... I'm confused with the complaining.
I am a disc priest, yesterday I went as shadow in the raid. It feels like you have zero contribution other than for dispels and homunculi. People can’t say SP shouldn’t have buffs because PvP, every shaman has been busted in PvP since P2 start.
@@Lordturisas1 it is useless cus it's only Party wide. And u have to remove a meele from that group.. so u lose an extreme amount of dmg in return, which is not worth it. VE is not worth 2k+ dps.
I think nerfing won’t help but increasing sp on caster gear would help a lot. My BIS for phase 3 is only 3-5 more sp lol that’s crazy. Its needs to be around 8-12 more. Melee only gets better as we get closer to 60 so this is going to get ugly I think
This post just further validates my decision to quit midway through P2. The devs have ZERO understanding about how to balance abilities, not just for output but for mana costs, cd length and impact during fights. It boggles my mind that they added abilities twice as good as baseline spells but for half the cost. If people think things are bad now, just wait for when they give melee full lvl 60 world buffs and you end up with warriors doing 5k dps The only thing that attracted me to SoD was the idea of fun new pvp but everyone just dies in less than 3 secs and healers don't even have a job to do because players die so fast.
I literally quit over this crap. In phase 1 I rolled a BM hunter. Here comes phase 2 and they killed BM hunter. Ok I will roll a Warlock and a Shadow Priest. I ended up liking the SP as I really like the rotation better. Well here comes phase 3.....RIP SP. I'm not going to re-roll again. Love the idea of SOD but come on this is a 20y/o game, class balance should fairly easy to achieve.
a 3 hour raid once a week isnt a good metric for class balance chance the value of a shadowpriest dot by a small amount and it can become extremely opressive in pvp, even more so
Aggrend: The players who gatekeep are insecure and there's no real reason to gatekeep. Also Aggrend: **Creates conditions for gatekeeping with so much class imbalance - some classes are actively worse than those at that top no matter how hard they try**
Shadow Priest brings so much utility that I think you guys are doing a big disservice by talking about how much raw damage they do. They do a tonne of free healing, shadow vulnerability, and homunculi are about the best and most useful ability any class in the game has right now. You should be focussing more on the classes like arcane mage, balance druid, etc.
Also. It should be raised that NO ranged is in top 5. And in the bracket 6-10 melee are 1 and 3. So definitely melee is unbalanced to everyone else. Not just class but a huge difference between melee and range
Top damage isn’t everything. I don’t care that Spriest is meme damage. I bring utility that is valuable. That utility will always get me a raid spot 😌😎
The classes that only do dps are on top, and the classes that provide a ton of utility are on the bottom. Sure, it's not balanced, but it's way better this phase than last phase in terms of every class getting invited to the raid. If anyone was gonna "quit" due to class balance, they would have done it last phase. The only class that really needs buffs, in my opinion, is warlock. Cause they're more of a pure dps class.
So we want the homogenized sludge of retail where everyone can do everything and all are within a few %dps within each others range instead of evaluating other support features of classes into the calculation and ONLY looking at "Number on WoWlogs low"? I mean sure lets make SPriest to 88-94% while also healing at 45% of a dedicated healer, increasing shadow damage for the whole raid, dispelling, curing and silencing 8) (fear ward for every race next phase too) I bet people will love that balance wise compared to classes and specs which only do damage 8) This fucking QQ community, crazy (SPriest main btw)
Simple fix. Some bosses = Nature damage 200% more damage. Some bosses Arcane hurt them. Some frost. Some shadow damage. Put some armour on them to slow down melee. FIXED . Use the bosses to control the sweaty people. Put towels on the boss.
They should just make a discord server that is specifically for community feedback. It would be so much easier, all the information would be in one place. I know they have been active in most class discords lately but yeah a server that is just for questions like this and community feedback would be a game changer. Twitter is ass and not very user friendly compared to discord and a lot of people that play don't even use it.
Well there's just too many balance druids and shadow priests to ignore.. many of which have important positions ( officers) in guilds.. I am sure that a lot of them are getting cucked though. People are starting to wake up on the meele meta.. i see a lot of LF hunters/warriors.
I'm dps lock. just sitting there in the middle, which isn't the worst place to be. But yeah my guild had like 4 rogues and 4 wars so we still get that good dps. I just hope we see better balancing in P4...but i'm not getting my hopes up
Problem is that 99.99th percentile warlock can't touch the worst, semi afk hunter. Also warlocks have 4 specs, but literally only one meta is even viable, any other spec and u will get out performed by a hunters pet. Also warlocks runes SUCK BALLS this phase. Whoever designed warlock runes literally never played a warlock.
@@josipmarasovic2436 Well at the time locks were either Fire Lock or Tanking and I wanted to do neither. Having fun with Aff lock in P3 now but Hunter is still main.
Instead of nerfing the best classes why not buff the lower classes’ spells that aren’t instant cast / overly powerful in PvP because longer casted spells which are mainly used in PvE would balance things while not ruining things in PvP. For example, spriests dots are OP in pvp, so why not boost spriest casting spells which aren’t part of the normal pvp rotation… elemental sham buff lightning bolt which honestly never gets casted anyways in pvp and only gets used as filler in pre… solved!
honestly, the balance is pretty good. especially when you looked at the 50th percentiles. hunter should be top by an inch. its the only pure dps class and it brings no utility. same with rogue, lacklustre tank and always was the pure dps. the only problem is shamans being so high up there. you cant have a class bring the most utility in the game, including shamanistic rage araid wide innervate, and then also have it do SOOOO much damage like this. its been a problem for months at this point. but atleast theyre working on it, i guess.
@akhsdenlew1861 ummm? Lol dude, no.. I'm a 99 average parses on multiple classes. And you should really NOT only look at that.. what? Lol that's the whole issue, sigh... shamans are doing the amount of damage with 0 effort. They melee attack sith ss and do more than most classes. You're just wrong man.
@@sighz4086 First of all.. who the hell told you to flex on your parses and how is that relevant? lmao no i mean when you are taking samples for the classes you shouldn't look at green blue parses... Only orange and maybe purple. People with green and blue parses are obviously people who are incapable of pressing buttons and their statistics should not be taken into consideration when making videos and lists like this. Only players who use their class in their full potential are relevant. I am not exactly sure what's the exact threshold on that but it's for sure not bellow 90. And ofc i am obviously talking about mid-end of the phase not for someone who went into a raid for the 1st time and parsed blues. Anyway i think with your wierd parse flex and the rest we got out of my original point. my original point is that 50 parses is NOT average. it's a handicapped person.
They created the problem with warriors by giving them flat % damage buffs in their runes. If they touch rage I'm done with sod, changes to rage was why I quit retail in wod. They could easily have done fun things like reducing how well warriors scale with strength and the gave them ap based on armor. It plays into warrior fantasy and changes the bis list dramatically. Flat % damage increases is not fun for the player and is just lazy on the devs part.
every phase looked like this. I dont see why it's an issue now and not before. Ele already is a monster in PvP if they get a buff for pve they will get even better in pvp. shadow is like 75% of a dps and 75% of a healer, effectively making them worth 150% of a raid spot.
there's no way they are 75% of a dps... they are barely 25% of a dps.. lmao And they are definetly less than 50% of a healer since even in the tank group they get severly outhealed by normal healers.
There must always be a king of dps, and in wow classic, it has to be the warriors. They are the most sweatlord min max players out there and deserve the throne.
I wonder if people realize how much maintenance enhances actually is. Maintain 3-4 totems (track their durations of 45sec and 2min), move them (constantly on some fights), swapping them depending on the situation, refresh 2 imbuements every 4 minutes, refresh lightning shield at low charges, stormstike on cd every 6 sec, keep up flame shock every 12, potentially earth shock if you have time, lava lash every 6 sec MAYBE, chain lightning your five stacks which happen often, if chain is on cd then use bolt instead or if you don’t want to cleave. Oh btw all of this uses a global cd so have fun. My adhd brain loves it but it’s def harder than spamming raptor strike.. and majority of what other classes have to keep up with.
The problem is we are playing a classic era style game and expecting balance? This is what happens when you give all classes utility and and good damage also yall just care way too much about balance and parsing
They need to balance the classes... in regards that we are getting 60 next phase. Better start balancing the classes looking forward and preparing for the next phase so that every classes can be desired in the incoming raids. I dont really care about the current phase, ST nerf is enough to allow a lot of people to clear without a ''meta'' comp.
To make an observation the only reason you see unbalanced is caused by the world buffs. The devs won’t and should not make balance changes based on players using/abusing world buffs to clear raids.
This game is already boring 2 weeks in of phase 3...
The new content the added are repeatable braindead Nightmare loops and repeatable braindead Wild offering runs 😂 what content
💯
I think the bottom three Spriest Boomkin and Elesham all bring great things to the raid, healing, Homies, Decursing, B Rez, Totems, Buffs. They will for sure help out and are worth bringing. That was not the case before when ranged hunters were way down the totem pole, and rogues were deemed not bringing enough by most raids.
Yeah shamans are like mana batteries for the whole group and spriest does dmg and off healing really nicely and boomkins add nice debuff to bosses.. They may not be at the top of charts but they support all the players that do top the charts it's a symbiotic relationship.. It'd be one thing if they were totally useless but their far from it
@@aaronrodgers9202 yea its not like rogue last phase
so feral and enh should be bottom dps too no? they also bring all those things
I do feel sorry for boomkins who has suffered through most of SoD raiding. Even the good ones we have fall behind rogues, warrior and those stupid melee hunters. I would say if this was just one phase then fine but it keeps happening to them.
This is SoD though noone went those classes to bring utility, homies or battle rez. Was supposed to be able to at least do decent damage and not worry about getting invited to raids.
Though it's not to that point yet if they don't fix it people will quit and it will get worse.
It is the armor of the bosses. In P2 people were like "casters are great" as the bosses had twice the armor as normal. Now that armor values are normal, melee are back on top.
I think I agree with Aggrend here. Shadow priests are bottom of the pack in terms of raw dps, but they are also the most sought after dps class when people are looking for raids. I dont really think every class has to do the same amount of damage to be similar values to the raid, and I think thats what Aggrend means
The reason they are sought after is because not many people play them due to shit bottom performing. Also it is a "you only bring one of" classes, which drives their numbers lower.
Hearing warriors bragging that they did 19k executes when that's 1/2 your overall boss damage dealt, feels bad.
The problem is Classic era is a version of the game where everything was designed around classes complimenting each other with bringing either tanking, raw damage, healing, or support elements. But in 2024, people have later iterations of the game in mind where the it’s been reduced to tank healer dps. The support elements are there, but also everyone wants to PUMP as the kids say, so people tend to only use meters and logs as the metric for whether or not your class does well
I hard disagree. Aggrend is right with warcraft logs not meaning shit.
Shadow priest brings utility for raids but where they shine most is pvp.
They put two dots on you and you die.
parse logic ruined the game... having people refuse to "waste" a global on a kick where someone dies just because its the difference from a 98 and a 99 who cares i loved to play wow not wowlogs
Exactly. It's not always about "BIG NUMBAS!", it's about the utility you bring to the group. And in PvP, if spriests are left free casting in the back, you will be dead before you know what hit you
5% cares about pvp.. 95% cares about pve.
Guess which community wins.
Also, in bgs ppl reach 6k+ hp easily with pvp gear.
i highly doubt that 2 dots can kill them.
Shamans can however melt you in 2-3 secs... Dots killing you in 20 secs is not really a huge win.
And besides, dots can be overhealed, dispelled etc... they won't kill most of the ppl except ungeared rogues/warriors.
@@akhsdenlew1861play some pvp and wpvp. A spriest will always kill you in seconds.
@@Straff_Dis i play bgs a lot.. i just dispell all those nasty dots + ambolish disease to everyone... SP can't do dmg at all... lmao
Warlock is far better + more dangerous than SP... dispell protection and tons of instant/passive healing, fear spam and perma resist.
Although it kinda sucks to not top meters all classes are wanted. The classes that do the most dmg bring the least utility. Balance and spriests bring tons of utility.
Yes This! We are a casual Guild and got 6/8 in our 2nd ST Raid as we only raid once a week for 2hrs atm. Without Battle-Rezzes or the passive Heal from the shadow priests we would struggle for sure. Also our ret and prot pally are doing most of the cleansing at the 2nd boss and list can go on. People should realy stop only checking parse logs... usually u suceed or fail depending on how good ppl play the mechanics and this is how it should be.
The thing is people want to do damage not be utility bots like they are making s priest. Vamp embrace and battle rez isn't anything new.
Yea I dont get it. I compare my damage to people in my spec not to the warriors in my guild who are parsing 99
What does balance bring? Innervate is useless as the shamanistic rage and paladin mana return buffs make it a wasted global. Brez has some use of your raid is bad. 3%crit buff is really not that much considering most caster are 40% or higher spell crit with world buffs. But hey, at least I get forced to be decurser in the raid because the other classes that can do better damage.
You want raid utility? bring another tank! Some of them are currently out DPS balance/
@@neologismx innervate a wasted global? if mana is never an issue, then mana pots would be cheap as hell. They are not, therefor you are wrong sir.
The need to harp on S priest is a bit much, s priest right now is pretty optimal because It heals more than a healer and does more damage than an arcane mage
Yea its like looking at warcraftlogs in retail and saying aug Evokers are bad. It’s ok for a hybrid raid buffing DPS to not do the same DPS as a rogue in raid. We may have wrath runes but the base game is still classic, there’s much more to the game than DPS rankings on a 3rd party site
I had no idea about this aspect of s priest. Honestly is it really comparable to Aug. Like as a retail player there was a time when it was ur default 5th in a 5 man group.
Yes but it heals only 4 people , and putting your Spriest into the meele/tank group , you're pretty much cutting off a meele from there just for VE..
You're trading TONS of dmg in exchange for some VE healing.
Not worth.
And if VE is "SOOO GOOD" ( its not) , just nerf it to the ground and give Spriest normal dmg.
@akhsdenlew1861 ohhh so it's entirely moot I'm a raid leader as well as a healer. Breaking WF group is how to get replaced as RL easy.
I love how they fire a bunch of people and now want the community to come up with class balance
I’m a ranged hunter that refuses to play melee, if I wanted to play Merle I would roll a warrior or rogue
I have 5 toons at 50. The worst playstyle I have is my melee hunter. I seriously out dps our ranged but wish I could just change. It doesn't play like a hunter at all and I just watch my character do a lil spin every few seconds...
Absolutely love melee hunter playstyle.
Melee hunter is and has been incredibly overtuned for a class pressing basically one button and having a pet do 35% of your damage and does deserve nerfs, but ranged hunter is in an exceptional state atm. Solid A tier dps and you provide the hardest, second most important melee buff after windfury. Not to mention the playstyle is engaging.
@@dbmoose that's why I love it. It's easy and I can have fun. It's a game.
StaysafeTV, This is fantastic! I subscribed right away!
Solid take Matt. I think your closing point about time invested vs output hits the nail on the head. Some people just want to play a class whether it be lore / old character/ ect. It sucks to suck quite literally. You shouldn't feel defined by what classes are feasible vs junk
Rogues have very strong passive runes, I hope other classes get the same treatment. Just doing normal rotation along with these runes gives you insane damage buffs on top of World Buffs the class is very powerful.
Warcraft logs needs to have separate entries for Destruction, Affliction and Demonology, as well as a separate parse for Meta Tanks.
I know. Like why the fk they keep showing shammy, hunter, mage, other classes in different specs but call warlock "DPS warlock". Warlock has 4 different DPS specs and only one is viable in sod, and even the only one that's viable is still shit.
Warlock is: affliction, demonology, fire destro and shadow destro
Same for warrior arms / fury and a lot of other classes
Why is everyone still complaining about enhance shaman.. they’re 4th but everywhere people bring up shaman lol.
They have so much versatility I would say they are too strong for all they bring to a raid and in pvp for their ability to heal and control with totems.
It’s definitely a lot of alliance players but there is definitely merit. Shams are much better than their alliance equivalent. They are insanely powerful in PVP and they are one of, if not the best, tank in many situations.
It's mostly the utility they have in letting your raid never run outa mana and poison cleanse totem
when you have a class with the most utility in the game by far and be faction specific, and then have it be so high on the dps charts especially in comparison to its faction counterpart. its pretty simple stuff but still shaman mains and FoTM rollers continue to gaslight that its fine lmao.
In PvP they are able to fully heal with 5 stacks of maelstrom no problem. Instant cast, no mana cost -- no problem. And it's so easy to generate stacks. Virtually impossible to take down alone, unless you can open with stuns as a rogue
I bet most of those who are crying now that it's not balanced are those who didn't take certain classes to Gnomer in P2 and now can't cope with experiencing the same thing.
As someone currently playing balance druid and putting a fair amount of effort into being prepared for raid, I bring nature and shadow protection potions, all elixirs i can stack, mojo flasks, all 3 WBs, Blasted Lands consumes, Resorative potions and Free Action Potions; I consider it a good parse right now if im above my warrior tanks.I get druid is a utility class but right now my class is simply brought for the fact that we can innervate and offer a 3% spell crit.
following up my previous post:
seems to me (if you read my post and understood the problems i take issue with) that spell damage having no natural counter is a major reason armor is bad. the vast majority of damage in pvp comes from spells and dots because its simply easier to hit your target as a caster than it is as i.e a warrior.
i suggest we clap two problems with 1 stone by making spirit - yes the character statistic called _SPIRIT_ useful. make it mitigate a percentage of spell damage depending on level difference, just like armor does.
this chould be different from class to class as well, just like strength and agi work differently from class to class.
this is just an example of what the board _could_ look like:
mages, warlocks, priests:: 3% spell mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit.
paladin/shaman/druid: 1% spell mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit.
rogue/hunter/warrior: 2% mitigation against a lvl 50 player every 10 spirit.
(add/remove diminish returns and hard/soft caps where needed).
paladin, druid and shaman have spells of their own, but they also have decent armor (in theory) and they can all heal, so 1% every 10 spirit seems like a good middle ground.
mage, warlock and priest get 3% every 10 simply to make spirit more attractive for casters as their only other hard stat is intellect.
casters are also handicapped enough as it is by their glass canon nature, so some more resistance against spell effects could go a long way... lorewise it also just makes more sense that a wizard would be better at standing his ground versus spells.
rogue, warrior and hunter would get 2% every 10 spirit purely because they don't have spells and heals of their own, and they need more defense vs. spell damage in general. hunters may or may not need to be lopped in with the druid/shaman/paladin since they are a ranged class though.
now spirit is more attractive across the board, yet not attractive enough for melee/hybrids to want to stack it in the same manner they go for i.e strength, intellect or agility, but enough to be just a little bit more than they had previously (which was nothing).
you could also make this board on a point-by-point basis, so i.e 1 spirit = 0.2 spell mitigation or whatever... i simply found the model i used above a simpler illustration.
You're 100 percent right. Even if you were in 99th percentile dps lets say as a lock, now you're doing half the dps of a bottom 25% of hunter players that are semi afking in the raid.... I literally quit playing actively, and just log on for PVP once in while.
Hummm s priests can put 2 dots on you and walk away, if you are a class without a heal, your dead. This is what he means by WCL is not everything. Also take into consideration all the passive healing from the S priest. And raid utility of shamanistic rage. Amazing buffs that don’t show up on the WCL. You’re looking at the point of the pencil. Don’t forget about the rest of the shaft bro ❤
Honestly bad take. While I tend to disagree with Aggrend on a lot of issues, I do agree with his point about DPS meters not being the only metric for which to judge a class. Your examples about Shadow Priest and Elemental Shamans needing to 'suck it up' due to doing less damage than a Warrior or Rogue is disingenuous. Shadow Priests, Elemental Shamans and other similar classes are referred to as 'hybrid' classes for a reason. They bring utility that pure damage dealer roles like Warriors/Rogues simply do not. If you're advocating for Hybrid classes to be neck-and-neck with pure damage dealers, that is a recipe for disaster. Priests, Shamans, Druids, Mages and Warlocks will ALWAYS have a spot in the raid due to their unique buffs and debuffs as well as additional utility like soul-stones, totems and healthstones. Not to mention PVP, while SoD PVP is currently and will likely always be a joke, those same classes that are at the bottom of the raiding damage meters are currently the most oppressive classes to face in PVP. If you were to buff a Shadow Priest for example, you would be making them an absolute unstoppable monster in Battlegrounds.
enhance shaman brings the same utility but his dps is not getting punished.. Why?
And VE is not worth -2k dps.
Also, it is clear to me that u have never played battlegrounds or wargames against GOOD players.
if u did , u would know that the best classes for that are : Mage, hunter , druid.. and then shaman, paladin, Priest ( dmg).
Also there are a lot of ways to make spriest do dmg and not effect pvp at all.
Like twisted fate ( just add mind spike in the tooltip) or better pve gear ( pve gear in this phase gives almost the same spellpower as last phase).
In order to have an valuable opinion on the matter you need to have the knowledge about some facts first.
Otherwise you end up with bad takes like the one YOU made.
Staysafe on the other hand had a much better take than you.
Regarding Aggrend’s point about WCL; I do think people need to chill a bit regarding balance. He is right in that regard of “there’s more to the game than WCL graphs 100%. That being said; it does feel super bad just being stuck at the bottom because certain classes don’t just pump as well.
Keep in mind, ST bosses all have a lot of movement mechanics, melee can move and attack, casters struggling to spam 3sec casts then have to move or die, which is definitely a factor I don’t see talked about much.
I do think they need to do something to bring the bottom end of pack up to be more inline with the bulk majority of classes. That being said, someone is always gonna be “the last”. In the past we used to throw around the “hybrid tax” argument, which was fair. Pure DPS classes should do more dps than hybrids 100%. Now in SoD, I think every class is considered “hybrid”. Should S priests be the biggest pumpers with their utility they bring? I don’t think they should be an outlier, but that doesn’t mean they should be scrapping the bottom of the barrel so to say.
Aggrend had a convo in the pally discord basically saying, “look we’re not 60 yet, we have more tunes coming, we have more and new itemizations coming as well. We can’t spend all our time fine tuning every spec when all the cards aren’t on the table”. Tbh I’d rather see dev time going into new content than constant balancing every week like retail. Let’s see what we get at 60, and let’s make fair adjustments when we got the whole picture. Yes it sucks being “the worst” at times for sure, but that’s how these games work, all classes are not equal, they all aren’t going to perform the same.
"Anyway, I'm sure this is going to get screenshotted and put on Reddit because it always does, but what I think I was trying and failed to say to jello was that we are in a weird spot with these level up phases where we are trying to move so so so fast with a relatively small team, and sometimes we have to just let stuff lie for a bit even if we don't like it. I was agreeing with him and saying that I really do want SoC playstyle to be on par with martyr, but I'm just not sure when we'd be able to move the needle enough for it to be satisfying. That's a hard thing to say on Twitter, but I feel bad about the tone of my reply so I'm trying to be a bit more real here now.
In general, I think we really want to get to 60 and get all the Runes out, and then we can actually sit down when everone has all the cards on the table and start making larger moves to truly solidify things. Spending enormous time turning individual knobs to get every playstyle amongst every spec perfect every level up phase is time consuming and we always have to weigh where we are spending our time when the content is coming this fast. That said, we are working on our first truly beeft set of Phase 3 changes which we hope to have out soon. Will it fix everything every one of you wants to Ret? No. But there's some stuff in there I do think you'll like that should help step in the right direction"
- aggrend
I agree with most you are saying here. However, it's worth mentioning that the raid is also very movement reliant which is why alot of the "I need to cast my spells" classes are falling behind (Boomkin, Ele shaman more than anyone). Following a boss as a melee hunter, warrior or rogue is never an issue, hence why they do well on most, if not all encounters. We know, if they don't make raid changes, that encounters at 60 will be more friendly towards this patchwerk playstyle. If they want class balance in lvl 50 and not butcher upcoming runes that might change the "bad" classes at 60, it would be implementing a raid aura giving spell damage increase inside of ST (10% ish?). For anyone doing pvp, giving flat SP buff to the classes will be horrifying outside of the raid. Getting dotted by a Spriest is enough to kill most non healing classes. Maybe I'm wrong, Food for thought.
Not enough shadow dmg for sp. They really scale well with raw shadow dmg. Do boomkins scale as well with raw nature dmg ?
I don't think shadow priest scales that well with raw shadow damage. In general, 1.5sec casts and instant casts benefit slightly less from spellpower damage than 3+ second casts. So, for example, mind spike only benefits from 43% of spellpower, whereas it should benefit 50%. The reason SP stacks green spellpower gear is because intellect is a useless stat.
Exactly with nature damage. Wrath for druids has, is, and will continue to be sub par due to it's poor scaling. A substantial buff here would help, but it's less than half of their rotation and represents a fairly small of their overall damage.
The tough part is how do you balance a level up phase without causing big issues for end game phase
I mean the 50-60 balance jump would t be huge these charts will likely stay closely the same with Warrior likely topping when it’s all said and done.
i play hunter, warrior, druid and priest. I can tell you one thing if they buffed balance and s priest world content and pvp would be even more horrible than it already is. World questing and anything else as a warrior is fucking horrible. Basically every other class dumpsters on us and questing is a nightmare. Balance and shadow priest fucking wreck in the open world and in pvp so if you want to blame anything or have it changed they need to go with the system that when in pvp values of abilities change so you aren't one shotting people or getting one shot. Otherwise its just an unwinnable battle.
They've been trying to do that by having runes and set pieces give debuffs that increase spell damage taken and such. But it has so far not had a substantial effect. I don't play warrior so I don't understand how the guy in my raid bragging about 19k executes is having a hard time questing...?
I have enjoyed SOD for the first 2 phases, but now with incursions and a bunch of bugz, overpriced AH, bots, unbalanced classes i have decided to quit
@RichSmithson yea, really unfortunate..
So the entirety of phase 2 was casters being the only top dps and now that its the other way around everyone is bitching about it :D
Just wait for phase 4 melee gonna keep skyrocketing
That's completely not true. Melee hunter and ench shammy were literally head and shoulders above everyone what are you smoking lol
@@romanteni rofl. Go look at the logs right now. Top ranks on logs for phase 2 are locks and mages with a few melee sprinkled in
@@samanthabazemore7729 exception don't make the rule..for locks to top meters you had to setup raid LITERALLY just for logs. Means a warlock off tank, running a horrible spec only to boost the other lock, and mage running a bad spec only to boost the lock damage. I know cuz I did that one raid LITERALLY just to get that one 99.99 parse..... Doesn't mean u can do that DPS as a stand alone dps in regular raid. Melee hunter is #1 DPS half way afk regardless of raid make up.
you definetly didn't play P2.. lol.
Meele hunters and enhance shamans were the king , and mage/lock followed.
SoD pvp is the worst pvp in WoW history
I would like to see something for Holy Paladins like.. Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Lob onto the field healing whatever is in that area, except if there is a rabbit in the targeted area, it explodes. Put it on similar CD as Wild Growth is for druids. Maybe like 15 yard range, since it's 'throw distance'. Maybe they could use that divine sac,horn of lordaeron/aegis slots for a good holy paladin rune on those pieces.
cant judge the balance until the last phase imo when everyone has full talents and all their skills etc
Thats not true, specs like balance or Shadow gets no more dmg talents past lvl 41
You do realize lvl 60 just means more runes to get.. so yes it can change…
@@TheRampage1337 I do, but the comment I replied to talked about talents
Call me crazy, but I don;t think we should be balancing for the top 5% because most of us reading this aren't in the top 5%. When you look at averages, it's still pretty good, with paladins dropping off a cliff (hence why paladins are complaining so much).
I think one of the things is, the Melee Scaling is Huge! compared to Spell Scaling. I only say it's a scaling problem because it was like BFD Had items with up to par with End game stats, Gnomer had MC and BWL stats. So when you get spell damage it's not as big as getting AP for Melee. Even if you change a game wide .15 spell damage increase would do tons for all spell caster classes. But then they need to think about 60.
It wasn’t balanced last phase either I just waited my turn to shine as melee being a rogue I didn’t cry about it just kept playing didn’t cry when rogue was the last class people wanted in the raid with them I just found a squad and made it happen
Warriors should be top, can war solo aoe farm zf for example. Or max level can war solo maraudon/dme jump. One shot anyone in pvp? Only thing warrior is good at is once a week doing crazy raid dps.
remember when caster were top during Gnomer and nobody said a thing just "git gud" or reroll but when caster aint top of the logs then suddenly its a problem
Yeah in p2. It's p3 now they should have learnt from that. But they didn't. We got melee and dps fighting while blizzard is to blame
Warriors/enh sham were at the top by the end of the phase. Melee hunters were at the top the whole phase. Spriest/boomie was at the bottom by the 3rd week with frost mage. Keep crying your false narrative though just cause you didnt get invited to pugs.
@@FrostDK98 jelly bro
@@nopenope3678 Jelly of what? I mainly pvp as a spriest so I sht on every class u play lol
@@FrostDK98 okay kid cool story
The best way they could help keep things balanced through out the phases, is to have spells scale with your lvl. They can also make it so that scaling stops when you need to learn the new rank. This way you still have to visit your trainer like normal.
If you are advocating for a 10% buff to casters in general I could get on board with that, but spriest/boomkin/ele sham bring so much to a raid other than their damage and all three are in a great place right now. Expecting hyper balance on numbers is going to send us right down the road to retail.
Only if they balance by homogenizing skills. Hunter/warrior/rogue are very different classes but perform similarly at the top. Surely other specs/classes can be adjusted up and retain their classes/specs uniqueness?
@@neologismx These people throw the word retail around with 0 clue what that means. You're right, homogenization is the issue and bringing dps spec's potential in line is good for the game so you dont have specs rotting at the bottom cause that leads to players quitting.
VE is not a good enough reason for a -2k dps.
Homunculi and eye of the void are all utility that other classes can bring and even priest healers.
I mean... some classes are buffers, do you expect them to be topping too?
melee damage should be higher because we have to _get in melee_ to do our damage. every raid is anti-melee mechanically, thus the fact we have to move around equals out with the ranged not having to do that.
i feel the same about armor in pvp.. its ridiculous how it basically have no influence. wayyyyy too many abilities and spells for it to be really useful, but even when its supposed to be useful (i.e against physical damage) there is barely a difference between hitting a leather user vs a plate user. the damage mitigation based on armor class should be way more significant from tier to tier, aka the difference between cloth and leather should be noticeable, currently they are pretty much same same. the difference between leather and mail should be even more noticeable and the difference between mail and place be relatively noticeable (but not as much as between cloth/leather and leather/mail).
the 2 highest classes of armor should actually function like armor and not be a fancy cosmetic, whereas in my headcanon cloth is literally no armor except for a symbolic amount and leather only being a bit up the road from that.
the idea that classes like enhancement shaman should be a glass canon in pvp is fucking stupid, because that's what CASTERS are supposed to be, not a frikkin' melee class.. the only exception to this rule is the rogue, and that's because they got a bunch of cooldowns to help them cope with their natural weakness against other - more armored - melee opponents.
i honestly felt like dps shaman running way of earth in pvp was just where the survival needed to be. it was the ability to dish out way too much damage at the same time that made this look OP... after the way of earth nerf enhancement is back to being a glass canon in bis pvp gear... we still stomp on people in a gcd or two, but we also die to a gcd or two, and i absolutely hate how this feels...
i would gladly take a dps nerf to get to a middle ground where i don't die before cheap shot or frost nova root runs out, but where i also have to actually put in a bit more effort to secure a kill, cus currently once i catch someone 8/10 times its a guaranteed kill, would be 10/10 if they never had their cooldowns up.
Wait till they find out about the class balance in actual vanilla wow or classic era, whatever you wanna call it
you mean where S preist and balance druid are relevent for barely 1 phase and are pretty much meme specs? Yeah...
I’d like to see them tweak mind blast, so it does dmg based on the players intellect. Lower intellect players take more damage than players with high intellect and scales on intellect.
Cool flavor, but the reality of the game right now is if you play a "low intellect" class right now you cannot heal and you will guranteed die after the spriest has put their two dots on you, even if you manage to kill them (you won't).
Knowing now that these numbers were released before crusader enchant was banned from logs, would u say balance is in a much better place or no?
Barely anyone got Crusader to begin with
Not true, especially of the top 95th percent. I play with random dad gamers and we got like 3 so I'm guessing most guilds had a handful
Drop WCL to 75th% and there should be basically no crusader influence, and the chart doesn't change that substantially. It actually drives the "hybrid tax" further in most (non shaman) cases.
As a hunter main for 10 years, I would love to see more flavorful updates to BM and Survival such as new pets, pet abilities like Beastial Cleave and new traps. Why not Hunter pet taming challenges like we’ve seen in Firelands and MoP?
Vanilla is my least favorite version of the game as a Hunter because the expansions such as Cataclysm just did Hunter better.
I was looking at WCL and druids casted 100% of the innervates. This imbalance is a serious problem
Don't worry. Enough shamans or paladins in the raid make innervate a non issue.
If you make shadowpriest/balance do the same dmg as warrior on a 1 minut boss fight, then we will have a huge problem lool.
Ya'll are really OCD about this crap. Give it a rest.
The reason we OCD about this is because raid leaders(gate keepers) OCD about it.
@@TheSaltyAdmiraljust join a guild
resto druid need nourish to benefit from the improved regrowth talent. +50% crit rate
How hard could it possibly be to balance classic? Even if it is sod.
I think the devs need a new job, like fipping burgers or something
Well, I do understand the dev to some degree. These graphs show pure dps, but not where it is coming from.
Rogues and warriors only perform so well if they have windfury buff, which neither of them can provide.
Actually, rogues do not provide any buff at all. So while the rogue has a long bar, it would hurt the raid far more to kick a good buffer (shaman, druid, paladin) than a rogue.
I guess that this is what the dev actually meant when he said theres more than these logs.
It depends on the fights. In phase two there were fights that benefited range. Phase three their fights that benefit melee. Plus it's not even end game yet, so... I'm confused with the complaining.
I am a disc priest, yesterday I went as shadow in the raid. It feels like you have zero contribution other than for dispels and homunculi. People can’t say SP shouldn’t have buffs because PvP, every shaman has been busted in PvP since P2 start.
Spriests bring vamp embrace.
Sucks you're relegated to being a pseudo healer support spec, but not useless by any stretch.
@@Lordturisas1 it is useless cus it's only Party wide.
And u have to remove a meele from that group.. so u lose an extreme amount of dmg in return, which is not worth it.
VE is not worth 2k+ dps.
I think nerfing won’t help but increasing sp on caster gear would help a lot. My BIS for phase 3 is only 3-5 more sp lol that’s crazy. Its needs to be around 8-12 more. Melee only gets better as we get closer to 60 so this is going to get ugly I think
This post just further validates my decision to quit midway through P2. The devs have ZERO understanding about how to balance abilities, not just for output but for mana costs, cd length and impact during fights. It boggles my mind that they added abilities twice as good as baseline spells but for half the cost. If people think things are bad now, just wait for when they give melee full lvl 60 world buffs and you end up with warriors doing 5k dps
The only thing that attracted me to SoD was the idea of fun new pvp but everyone just dies in less than 3 secs and healers don't even have a job to do because players die so fast.
Long time ele changed to enhance but it’s more than the lower dps. Ele is clunky and unfun and needs some changes.
Yeah I’ve quit my Ele already :( which is my only lvl 50… going to wait for 60
I literally quit over this crap. In phase 1 I rolled a BM hunter. Here comes phase 2 and they killed BM hunter. Ok I will roll a Warlock and a Shadow Priest. I ended up liking the SP as I really like the rotation better. Well here comes phase 3.....RIP SP. I'm not going to re-roll again. Love the idea of SOD but come on this is a 20y/o game, class balance should fairly easy to achieve.
well that's the problem tbh.. everyone just looks at logs and just make the highest performing spec ( that is not a warrior).
They have changed the talent trees. Calssic stormstrike is 20 sec cd and in sod its 6 sec. They didnt move anything but they changed the spell cd.
a 3 hour raid once a week isnt a good metric for class balance
chance the value of a shadowpriest dot by a small amount and it can become extremely opressive in pvp, even more so
Aggrend: The players who gatekeep are insecure and there's no real reason to gatekeep.
Also Aggrend: **Creates conditions for gatekeeping with so much class imbalance - some classes are actively worse than those at that top no matter how hard they try**
I parsed in the high 90’s on Jammal and Oggy. One of our rogues parses the same percentage. I am 500+ dps behind him. 😎
Shadow Priest brings so much utility that I think you guys are doing a big disservice by talking about how much raw damage they do. They do a tonne of free healing, shadow vulnerability, and homunculi are about the best and most useful ability any class in the game has right now. You should be focussing more on the classes like arcane mage, balance druid, etc.
Also. It should be raised that NO ranged is in top 5.
And in the bracket 6-10 melee are 1 and 3.
So definitely melee is unbalanced to everyone else. Not just class but a huge difference between melee and range
Top damage isn’t everything. I don’t care that Spriest is meme damage. I bring utility that is valuable. That utility will always get me a raid spot 😌😎
Add +30 to +40 stamina on pvp trinkets, SoD's pvp is whack
The classes that only do dps are on top, and the classes that provide a ton of utility are on the bottom. Sure, it's not balanced, but it's way better this phase than last phase in terms of every class getting invited to the raid. If anyone was gonna "quit" due to class balance, they would have done it last phase. The only class that really needs buffs, in my opinion, is warlock. Cause they're more of a pure dps class.
As long as we can clear the raids, I don’t care about logs. Though it’s good fun to push the 99’s the most important is the loot 😊
So we want the homogenized sludge of retail where everyone can do everything and all are within a few %dps within each others range instead of evaluating other support features of classes into the calculation and ONLY looking at "Number on WoWlogs low"?
I mean sure lets make SPriest to 88-94% while also healing at 45% of a dedicated healer, increasing shadow damage for the whole raid, dispelling, curing and silencing 8) (fear ward for every race next phase too)
I bet people will love that balance wise compared to classes and specs which only do damage 8) This fucking QQ community, crazy
(SPriest main btw)
The problem for casters is all the moving in this raid. This raid is melee friendly. It's only fair because the last 2 raids were good for casters xD
as an unbiased warrior main, this is balanced very well.
Simple fix. Some bosses = Nature damage 200% more damage. Some bosses Arcane hurt them. Some frost. Some shadow damage. Put some armour on them to slow down melee. FIXED . Use the bosses to control the sweaty people. Put towels on the boss.
then the meta would revolve around the hardest/most important boss.
In this case, Eranikus.
affliction warlock not even on the logs - cool stuff haha
They should just make a discord server that is specifically for community feedback. It would be so much easier, all the information would be in one place. I know they have been active in most class discords lately but yeah a server that is just for questions like this and community feedback would be a game changer. Twitter is ass and not very user friendly compared to discord and a lot of people that play don't even use it.
The problem with melle hunter is that 90% of their build is runes, theyre busted no matter what talent tree their in
Are there any specs not being invited to raid because of DPS imbalance? If not, who cares?
Probably? I haven't really seen any arcane mages ever. What about the "only bring one of" classes/specs though? Do we care about them?
Well there's just too many balance druids and shadow priests to ignore.. many of which have important positions ( officers) in guilds..
I am sure that a lot of them are getting cucked though.
People are starting to wake up on the meele meta.. i see a lot of LF hunters/warriors.
I'm dps lock. just sitting there in the middle, which isn't the worst place to be. But yeah my guild had like 4 rogues and 4 wars so we still get that good dps. I just hope we see better balancing in P4...but i'm not getting my hopes up
Problem is that 99.99th percentile warlock can't touch the worst, semi afk hunter. Also warlocks have 4 specs, but literally only one meta is even viable, any other spec and u will get out performed by a hunters pet. Also warlocks runes SUCK BALLS this phase. Whoever designed warlock runes literally never played a warlock.
I swapped from DPS lock to melee hunter end of P1. Never looking back.
why if u enoy playing lock??? just why
@@josipmarasovic2436 Well at the time locks were either Fire Lock or Tanking and I wanted to do neither. Having fun with Aff lock in P3 now but Hunter is still main.
Ranged classes are busted in pvp, can't nerf melee dmg without changing their playstyle. That is why we need to talk about them and not range.
If blizzard buffs casters pvp is gonna be even more unbalanced. Maybe make the world buff more caster friendly
Classic NEVER was about balance. All that matters is that things are viable.
Instead of nerfing the best classes why not buff the lower classes’ spells that aren’t instant cast / overly powerful in PvP because longer casted spells which are mainly used in PvE would balance things while not ruining things in PvP. For example, spriests dots are OP in pvp, so why not boost spriest casting spells which aren’t part of the normal pvp rotation… elemental sham buff lightning bolt which honestly never gets casted anyways in pvp and only gets used as filler in pre… solved!
World buff from ST. Increase spell power by 85. All spell casters move up. If buffed :)
but it shouldnt change melee was ussles in gnormegan
honestly, the balance is pretty good. especially when you looked at the 50th percentiles. hunter should be top by an inch. its the only pure dps class and it brings no utility. same with rogue, lacklustre tank and always was the pure dps. the only problem is shamans being so high up there. you cant have a class bring the most utility in the game, including shamanistic rage araid wide innervate, and then also have it do SOOOO much damage like this. its been a problem for months at this point. but atleast theyre working on it, i guess.
you shouldn't look anything bellow orange parses tbh..
@akhsdenlew1861 ummm? Lol dude, no.. I'm a 99 average parses on multiple classes. And you should really NOT only look at that.. what? Lol that's the whole issue, sigh... shamans are doing the amount of damage with 0 effort. They melee attack sith ss and do more than most classes. You're just wrong man.
@@sighz4086 First of all.. who the hell told you to flex on your parses and how is that relevant? lmao
no i mean when you are taking samples for the classes you shouldn't look at green blue parses... Only orange and maybe purple.
People with green and blue parses are obviously people who are incapable of pressing buttons and their statistics should not be taken into consideration when making videos and lists like this.
Only players who use their class in their full potential are relevant.
I am not exactly sure what's the exact threshold on that but it's for sure not bellow 90.
And ofc i am obviously talking about mid-end of the phase not for someone who went into a raid for the 1st time and parsed blues.
Anyway i think with your wierd parse flex and the rest we got out of my original point.
my original point is that 50 parses is NOT average.
it's a handicapped person.
They created the problem with warriors by giving them flat % damage buffs in their runes. If they touch rage I'm done with sod, changes to rage was why I quit retail in wod. They could easily have done fun things like reducing how well warriors scale with strength and the gave them ap based on armor. It plays into warrior fantasy and changes the bis list dramatically. Flat % damage increases is not fun for the player and is just lazy on the devs part.
every phase looked like this. I dont see why it's an issue now and not before.
Ele already is a monster in PvP if they get a buff for pve they will get even better in pvp.
shadow is like 75% of a dps and 75% of a healer, effectively making them worth 150% of a raid spot.
there's no way they are 75% of a dps... they are barely 25% of a dps.. lmao
And they are definetly less than 50% of a healer since even in the tank group they get severly outhealed by normal healers.
There must always be a king of dps, and in wow classic, it has to be the warriors. They are the most sweatlord min max players out there and deserve the throne.
Why not contribute to the discussion you want to have instead of having a metacommentary on the value of the discussion.
I wonder if people realize how much maintenance enhances actually is. Maintain 3-4 totems (track their durations of 45sec and 2min), move them (constantly on some fights), swapping them depending on the situation, refresh 2 imbuements every 4 minutes, refresh lightning shield at low charges, stormstike on cd every 6 sec, keep up flame shock every 12, potentially earth shock if you have time, lava lash every 6 sec MAYBE, chain lightning your five stacks which happen often, if chain is on cd then use bolt instead or if you don’t want to cleave.
Oh btw all of this uses a global cd so have fun. My adhd brain loves it but it’s def harder than spamming raptor strike.. and majority of what other classes have to keep up with.
They have crapped on Wars this whole SoD release. If they give us normalized rage I’m just gonna quit.
Nobody gave a shit last season like they do this season...
Can’t Warcraft logs be edited before uploading? Yes
Don’t think players are editing their logs? Hmm
The problem is we are playing a classic era style game and expecting balance? This is what happens when you give all classes utility and and good damage also yall just care way too much about balance and parsing
Shadow Priests provide group healing. Warriors provide no healing. How to do balance both effects?
I did put a upvote, and then I removed it because... there is more to World of Warcraft than raid dps.
They need to balance the classes... in regards that we are getting 60 next phase. Better start balancing the classes looking forward and preparing for the next phase so that every classes can be desired in the incoming raids. I dont really care about the current phase, ST nerf is enough to allow a lot of people to clear without a ''meta'' comp.
This is exactly why I quit p2 as a rogue feels good to be on top for a bit
Add a spell hit buff to the ST world buff and casters will be doing better overall
When it gets to the point where hunters do top tier dps , “wow is in a bad spot.”
To make an observation the only reason you see unbalanced is caused by the world buffs. The devs won’t and should not make balance changes based on players using/abusing world buffs to clear raids.
World buffs exacerbate the problem, they aren’t the sole cause.
If you run a raid without world buffs, you will see less of a gap between classes. However, you will see a class or two lacking.