TheDarthknight N7 I'm starting to see Niman more as an intellectual form, rather than a physical form. It may not be the most powerful, or fastest, but it takes an incredibly tactical individual to bring out its full potential.
"whatever an adversary brings to bear, a niman master will respond with the equal and opposite, defeating the opponent by harmonizing with them rather than overpowering them." that is the probably the best description that sums it up which is in itself beautiful.
A true Niman weapon master is a challenge to defeat not necessarily because of his overwhelming skill but because there is no tried and true way to defeat him, every engagement will be unique and will abide by its own individual circumstances.
@@cwrevenant I completely disagree. A "true" Niman Master would go to what works for what is happening. In a 1v1, they'd potentially be the human version of Grievous/An even deadlier version of Vader - constantly able to switch it up to confuse the opponent while having the defensive skills to counter what's coming their way. In a group or battle situation, they would cut back on the extra fluff and go purely to one or two Forms (Soresu and/or Shien probably) because that's what would get the Master out of the situation alive. A true Mastery of Niman would be the Makashi individual avoidance of being a slave to form taken to the nth degree with all five Forms. Heck, a true Mastery of Niman borders on the utterly supernatural "unbeatable" in most circumstances because they literally use everything from Forms 1-5 in the situations that those moves/skills are most optimised for. The biggest problems for Niman are two-fold: The sheer time required to master it to that extent is beyond what the majority of Jedi or even Sith would be willing to do. Because it's not mastering a Form, it's becoming a Master of FIVE Forms while doing so in their own unique personal style. And 2 - the Form itself has practically been relegated to nothing more than a lazy way for the Jedi to avoid actually mastering any lightsaber form because they don't consider themselves warriors.
OK so we all agree form 3 form 5 and form 6 are the only true viable forms. Form 4 and form 7 are absolute trash if you don't outclass your opponents. Form 4 is the absolute example of a trash form against an equally skilled opponent, example Yoda vs Palpatine and qui gon vs maul. Form 4 is useless in a real fight.
Theory: It may have come from seperate sources that contradicted each other, but all listed as canon at the time. I think it's possible that "way of the rancor" may have either refered to the use of dual sabers, being akin to the arms of a rancor being swung around, or the powers where one slashes and throws an opponent back, akin to the clawed swipe of a rancor slashing someone and sending them flying back.
Its called the way of the rancor because of the deceptive intelligence behind it. Rancors are semi sapient, as well as the above mentioned adaptability.
If Bruce Lee were a Jedi he would totally be a Niman master. “When the opponent expands I contract, when he contracts I expand and when there is an opportunity to hit I do not hit (holds up fist) it hits all by itself.” “Be water, my friend.”
So as someone who has studied JKD concepts under Guru Innosanto, I would point out that a lot of those general principles, as well as the concepts of Simple Direct Attack and Attack By Combination, would be found in Form I, postures allowing Attack By Draw are found in every form, and every form likely having their own views on Hand Immobilizing Attack. Only Makashi and Djem-so have the emphasis on linear dynamics that Lee favored, Form II alone with its emphasis on unique offenses and defenses follows the idea of absorb what is useful and discard what is useless, while the training for Form VII in it requiring mastery of multiple Forms mimics his own journey, and if the concept of Progressive Indirect Attack wasn't introduced in Form I it likely was in Forms II and V and only Forms IV and VII had the offensive emphasis for interception he emphasized. I would be curious as to how much of any of the other form conceptual basis gets consistently transferred over to Form VI.
"Moderation Form, the Way of the Rancor" Me: **looks at Rancor rampaging through Mos Eisely destroying everything, going one hundred percent into what it's doing and using brute force to fight**......I don't see the comparison at all.
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless they are provoked. Many Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either execution methods, warbeasts, "guard dogs" or gladiator challenges. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence due to them being semi-sapient.
@@calebkopp7636 Also Rancors are semi-sapient meaning that there is a deceptive intelligence to them (which is similar to the fact that most Niman masters use dirty tricks and tacticts in order to adapt to the varying circumstances of combat and confuse their opponents).
I find it ironic that the greatest Niman masters are the least "moderated." The great Niman masters rely on brutal excess paired with shock and awe tactics. To me, Kao is the only "moderate" Battlemaster Niman Practitioner. In Jensaarai1's Battlemaster vs Berserker video, Jensaarai described Kao as having the tactical mind of Kenobi (the reigning form 3 master of his era). I feel the ultimate Niman masters are either dirty shock and awe fighters or those who have the mindset of a form 3 master. Apply the most appropriate skill to get the job done and no more than that. This theory is backed up by the statement that Niman was mainly derived from Soresu. Though that is just my opinion and sorry if some of my spelling is wrong in advance.
Agreed. A good example being Exar Kun. Who, after his fall to the Dark Side, relied more on brute force. But this occurs when he has one of the blades of his short handled saberstaff.
Kevin Sanchez Thanks! When not using his saberstaff, Kun displayed a tendency for power attacks to brutalize his opponents. Also worth noting, that outside of Kao, the greatest Niman Masters are Sith. So when you think about it, Niman is more of a Sith form (the irony is strong with this form). A, u are a sith inquisitor who uses it so you have more time for force abilities and sorcery or your a Rule of Two Sith who spends more time on politics and manipulating people (Plagueis is the best example of this). B, your Exar Kun or Darth Krayt and just go for unpredictable dirty fighting.
I've noticed this before and I think you're absolutely right. I would blame this apparent disconnect on the lack of specific description of Niman. They initially labelled it as a jack-of-all-trades form, then gave it a whole bunch of specializations (unarmed strikes, saberstaves, dual lightsabers, force power integration). It doesn't surprise me at all that we ended up with the form's greatest masters flying in the face of its core tenant. That said, I don't really see it as such a disconnect. It makes sense to me that a jack-of-all-trades form would cover its inherent weakness with unorthodox techniques, and that dedicated masters could use these techniques to turn it into a form full of shock and awe tactics. It's also an example of the Sith taking something the Jedi have and corrupting it.
Ted Culbertson That's kinda the thing with Niman. I see that the Niman form is best suited for diplomats/peacekeepers and its roots are in Jedi philosophy.Though, the more you think about it, if you want to win a fight using a moderate jack-of-all-trades form, you would need to be a down and dirty fighter who uses the unorthodox to win the day. Diplomats Niman is great for Jedi and most Rule of Two Sith. But to me, a Sith is best suited for a combat specialist application of Niman. Its not a true disconnect. Instead, its a matter of practicality. If you want to win with a jack-of-all-trades style, you need to screw Jedi Philosophy and kick someone in the balls.
My take on Niman relates to the practice of martial arts. The other forms relate to styles of martial arts such as Karate, Jujitsu, Muay Thai, etc. They are their own unique practice. Niman was created by taking techniques from each of the other styles to create something new. Basically a mixed martial art. Those who trained in the diplomats version basically took a 6 month crash course in self defense. It's enough to help you survive if you need it but it's not much on depth. But if someone with a combat focus were to study Niman with the point of view of wanting to be well grounded in as many aspects of combat as possible they would be a true mixed martial artist, able to adapt in any way needed to the changes in a fight. That, IMO, would be when Niman would come into it's own and be truly effective.
This just came to me: casual Niiman is reactive. A Jedi in this way generalizes their opponet's weaknesses and then shifts the style best suited to counter them. However, Combat Orientated Niiman is proactive, with the Jedi here constantly changing styles and forcing their opponent to constantly be reactive trying and failing to predict what the Jedi will do next
yooo..... GREAT observation. i understand how to use the form a bit better now. i was wondering what gave niiman "some teeth", and applying "pressure" by changing styles FIRST makes sense
Niman is the lightsaber form of the "master of none", but if one were to truly go into hardcore training of Niman, it may become the "master of all". Of course, this is only theoretical, but it might be a dangerous form if one were to absolutely perfect it.
Found your series on the lightsaber forms and I’m glad I did. This is by far the most detailed explanation on Niman I’ve found on RUclips. Niman is my favorite form from Star Wars and I’m glad you have it the credit it deserves from the perspective of Niman fighters rather than scholars.
Niman maybe not a really standardized dueling study like forms I to V, so technically a Niman practitioner should be proficient at the previous forms before tapping into form VI's practice with the Force, either a formal cholar like Cin Drallig and somewhat Dooku since he rarely went to direct combat, or an outfield agent who often travels far and wide and prone to dangerous situations like Kenobi, Vader, Kyle Katarn and Grandmaster Luke.
This is, by far, my favorite form since it has so much potential. In reality, it's effectiveness depends on how the practitioner applies it and I agree with you that most users never take it to its highest level which is why it has such a bad reputation. In reality, it could be called the quissential Jedi form with Juyo being the Sith form. While Sith are all about power and aggression (Juyo), the Jedi are more about only using the necessary force to counter an opponent's attack before attacking their weaknesses (Niman). It's a bit telling that most of the Jedi that survived till the end of the war studied more aggressive forms and Yoda states in Star Wars Rebels that the Jedi lost their way because they became too focused and entrenched in the war. The dark side clouded their judgement and sight because they could only see the enemy in front of them and attacked it head-on instead of perhaps looking for a different tactic for victory like a Niman specialist would do. Though I do wonder why Niman is called the Way of the Rancor considering how aggressive rancors are and Niman... well isn't. Rancors also don't really come across as tricksters or anything. Lol.
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless when they are provoked. The majority of violent Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either elaborately gruesome execution methods, "guard dogs", warbeasts or gladiatorial entertainment. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence, which is due them being semi-sapient.
To Maul using Niman: Maul also implies his force abilities in the second half of the duel, another fact that speaks for him using Niman instead of Juyo
Very best described, dude! If you've seen _Rebels,_ we see Maul employing Niman against three Inquisitors in a manner very similar to that of Kao Cen Darach and Antares Draco.
@@DarthWill3 No it doesn't. That's Ataru. Lord Maul did alright with dueling against 2 people in TPM. And before u say Niman, no it wasn't it was Juyo.
@@tonywright9906 I've read _The Jedi Path_ plenty of times; Yoda comments that "Against multiple opponents, only a true Ataru master will prevail." Chapter 31 of _The Old Republic: Annihilation_ says Juyo is "the highly aggressive seventh form of lightsaber combat designed specifically to overwhelm a lone opponent in a one-on-one duel."
@@DarthWill3 Seeing and reading is two different things No practitioner of Form VII uses Juyo the same.Even Mace Windu has taken on multiple opponents using Vaapad.Maul has fought multiple opponents with Juyo. Maul used it against Qui Gon and Obi wan Kenobi.Maul has used it against Black Sun before Phantom Menace.And Maul used it against the Inquisitors. There is nothing lethal or ferocious about Niman. Each kill to the Inquisitors was ferocious,without mercy, and most of all Maul enjoyed it. The Jedi Path has its version but so does the Book of the Sith.And Darth Bane said it best.Sidious took out 3 Jedi Masters with Juyo!!! That wasn't Ataru,and damn sure wasn't Niman, it was Juyo.Yoda is no master of Juyo.Mace Windu is.Maul is.Sidious is.All three Masters of Juyo has taken on multiple opponents. Here's one more,Sidious beat Maul and Savage with Juyo. The Jedi Path says one thing Book of the Sith says another but the live action the novels the prequels say the same thing I've been telling you from jump Juyo or Vaapad doesn't limit themselves to one on one combat.Shatter Point proves this as well.But you left out another important fact.It also overwhelms the defenses of a Soresu master. A typical or average practitioner of Juyo can go one on one,But a specialist, a expert,a master is completely and utterly different.
Most styles have a particular trait or specialization, but I find that Niman and Shii Cho are unique in their potential for improvisational fighting. They have a similar goal but use a different approach to get there. It really comes down to one's learning style. Some are good learners who follow instructions well and would benefit most from a prearranged package built by previous masters - while others tend to go off on their own intuitively reinventing the wheel. Niman specialists being more academic tend to take the former approach, while a Shii Cho master is the latter. I picture Niman practitioners being more measured and calculated like Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, or Exal Kressh, while a Shii Cho master would most likely be more attuned to the living force like Qui-Gon Jinn, Kitt Fisto, or Fay. (I know they're not all practitioners of those styles, but the archetype fits) Both are capable of truly unique results.
Jensaraai1, please never stop making these videos. they are thoughtful and extremely informative, and some of the best analysis I have ever come across in either print or visual media.
Niman is my favourite form, I've been waiting for this video since you started this series and you did not disappoint. I never understood how Niman could be so underrated just because you get a bunch of second rate scholars using the absolute basics. People don't hate Soresu just because Coleman Trebor uses it, so why judge Niman because of all the bad examples? Ps. I liked how you used some of the terms from part 1 ofthe Plagiues review for this video. Very well done sir
Great video, good to see Niman getting some love. Most people just don't seem to consider that the type of person most likely to specialize in Form 6 also tend to be to the same ones that have less focus on combat.
Also Niman was the most popular Jedi fighting style of all time. Classic Niman was adopted as a fighting style long before the lightsaber became the standard weapon of the Jedi and it persisted long enough to be adapted into Form VII.
When will you make the videos of non-traditional lightsaber combat that includes the ones in the New Jedi Order, including Trakata, Lus-Ma, Kai-Kan, Strong Style, Medium Style, and Fast Style? Don't forget Jar'Kai.
THANK YOU! You covered more of my favorite dark Jedi, Exar, in this section. He was justly described. I do wish there was more on him, he was suuuuch a source of opportunity for amazing story. Still is imho.
My favorite saber form. Jedi I think should start off with this to have all bases covered, then branch out with a form he or she chooses. A good combo should be an understanding of Niman with Shien and Soresu. That's my preference anyway. Great vids!
Hey jensaari, my favorite form soresu, I was thinking a few days ago about this form, and what kind of Jedi it would be useful for, I think it's more useful for less lightsaber combat oriented jedis/siths, like maybe more skill based or more force focused, or even jedi deplomats, those are who I think soresu would be most useful for, because the would avoid having to use their lightsaber, but when they had to they would focus on defense. so to me,I knoe niman is sometimes called the way of the deplomat, but I agree with you statement in the forcecast, it's more of a soldier's form. so I think that soresu it more of a deplomats form, or you could say pacifist's form, what do you think?
Exar Kun didn't wield it as a quarterstaff. A quarterstaff is called this way because usually, you wield it at the edge (at one quarter of the staff) to get a reach advantage. You don't do that with a double lightsaber. Only in specific circumstances do you wield a quarterstaff in its middle.
FallenByTheHand wouldn't a lightsaber pike (the original version used by the Emperor's Shadow Guard from the Force Unleashed) be better used as a quarterstaff?
I like these videos a lot, I would be very interested to know more examples of Niman fighters who keep to a single blade style. I get the idea that most Jedi we see in combat are more than likely practitioners of the form, but seeing how it differs from the other forms (rather than as a sum of their parts) would be very interesting. It’s difficult with certain forms as there can be numerous overlap between tactics, maneuvers, etc. and I’m not even talking about Niman which was made to be an amalgam.
7:46, that mention of the Jedi with a green lightsaber reminded me of Qui-Gon Jinn and his failure again Darth Maul. Green blades are often a signifier of a Jedi who is more of a scholar a diplomat. Those who have a deeper spiritual connection to the Force. It’s only fitting that their combative prowess would diminish as they prioritize preparing and strengthening their spirit and mind rather than their body.
I think it would be awesome to mainly learn Makashi and combine it with Niman concepts to make it less specialized (take some tools to deal with power blows and multiple opponents). And maybe add a second shoto-saber in the off hand to be used like a parrying dagger with the main saber for more defense with the Makashi elements.
Not all Niman specialist are moderate. Some Niman specialist don't go for the moderation but went for Bruce Lee's be water my friend mentality. Shapeless and formless, mastering all seven and turn it all into one boundless form. Revan is one of those Niman type user.
As a Jedi Consular, i prefer Lightsaber Combat Form: Form I Shii cho - The Determination Form Form III Soresu - The Resilience Form Form V Shien/Djem so - The Perseverance Form Form VI Niman - The Moderation Form (The Diplomats Form) (The Consular Form)
Form VI is great for its unpredictability (an asset carried over by Form VII with its unpredictable, staccato sequences perhaps?) How many fallen Jedi turned Sith Lords were Niman practitioners compared to the number of Form V specialist Jedi who became Sith Lords? Glad to see Form VI is getting some appreciation :-)
So would a Jedi begin studying Form 6 after finishing basic form 1?? Or would they start after finishing training in the basics of 1-5??? I know Jensaarai mentions this but I've never heard it put that way before. I've heard you have to be somewhat skilled in the other forms before beginning form 6. But that doesn't quite make sense as you'd already be well versed in the basics of the previous forms. The way Jensaarai describes it, you can go into 6 right from form 1. Can someone clear this up for me? Is it a progression on the others requiring skill and knowledge in them before starting.. Or does form 6 get around that as it combines the fundamentals of 1-5 and you don't need to study them individually from form 6? Apologies for the rambling..
It is a bit confusing. The original Fightsaber article appears to say that a Jedi can spend a year or two studying Forms III, IV and V after completing basic Form I training *or* go straight into Form VI training which can take up to a decade to master. However the Jedi Path is laid out as if Padawans would go on to study Forms II to VI as part of their training. Given that both documents are a thousand years apart it is likely that training methods changed over the centuries so both are technically true. The short answer to your question I think would therefore be: it depends on the era in question. A thousand years before the movies: a Padawan would study all six lightsaber forms as an apprentice Around the time of the prequel trilogy: a Padawan would study either Forms III, IV or V (before specialising in one of them) or go straight to Form VI which is said to be the standard of Jedi training at that time. And I don’t mean to confuse even more but Obi-Wan Kenobi seems to use Forms IV, V and VI as a Padawan in TPM. The Fightsaber article is the holy grail of lightsaber combat lore but it’s description of Form VI seems to clash with every other source that has come out after it detailing the lightsaber forms. I’m really sorry if this hasn’t helped.
two full length single hilt sabers that can connect in the middle so you can use a single saber, dual sabers or the saber staff. However it's more of a question of what aspects of niman do you emphasize? I don't care for dual wielding, so I would emphasize force based attacks
Niman is another one of my favorite forms next to V and III. I often find myself displaying some skill with it when I'm practicing with my saberstaff or even my shoto
Shii Cho through 'diplomats' Niman seems to set an amazing benchmark for specialisation into other forms, except maybe Makashi due to its pinpoint focus and not being incorporated into the basic training of Niman(incorporates forms I, III, IV, V but not form II). Although Asajj Ventress successfully hybridised Makashi and Jar'Kai, proving it's not impossible. Still, my specialisation would likely be in Djem So with elements of Soresu, maintaining a strong defence while looking for an opening with either Djem So or an integrated force ability. From there, I would press the attack with Djem So, probably unintentionally using force rage. Not an infallible fighting style, but a likely accurate description of my style based on my known strengths and weaknesses.
Love this form! Aways wanted to have a Niman/Soreasu specialist jedi. Wear the opponent down and analyze their move set only to retaliate with the force force for openings.
Observering his fighting style from the game it seems he was learning it during his jedi training and most of his victories vs troopers and trilla he uses notable techniques from the form
Great video on Niman, but you left someone out: Revan. From what I've heard, Revan mastered all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, but the one that he generally preferred to use was Niman (even though his classic ready stance is more of a Juyo ready stance).
This is essentially Niman as described - anything or all of the above rather than a specific style. Having no style as style, as Bruce Lee would put it.
I agree with you saying that Niman is really a tricksters form, however if it were possible I would rather utilize it with Form 3 as a back up. Even if you were a combat orientated Niman user, the ability to simply stand your ground and stonewall is always useful when all other options fail you. And although with Form 6 these instances might not come up often because of the benefits the form contains, it still would help to pair it with a purely defencive form. So, in a universe in which this all possible, i would go for Forms 3 and 6.
This would be a from I world practice. I feel that this, not Shii-Cho, should be tutorial style of the Jedi. By having this as the basic training and then focusing on only one from, as Count Dooku suggested, you would have well rounded fighters with at least one specialized skill.
Honestly, I feel like Niman should be essential as a supplementary form, with the practitioner focusing on another Form. It's use of adaptation, I feel, is one of the most useful attributes a fighter can have; fight smarter, not harder.
I agree entirely, Niman would work as a lightsaber form that serves as a basis to advance a single form of specialization or to mix forms to the tailored desires of the duelist. In a way, it is no surprise that it was the standard of Jedi training during the Clone War Era, the only issue, is that it seemed that most Jedi just took Niman as far as step one and refused to go further, content with its basics. Such a waste of potential combative skill.
I agree if anything it's a great way for you transition into other forms if your defense is weak transition to soresu or shien and djem so or makashi for lightsaber to lightsaber dueling.
Niman is always interesting because it's pure swordplay is arguably the weakest. But it's arguably the best form when it comes to adding either a extra blade, or using the alter force abilities in the midst of battle. It's definitely at its weakest when only one sabre is used, and the force is not called upon as frequently.
I'd say it's the perfect form to start learning then use it as a transitions into other forms. I'd learn Niman first then move towards from 5 shien and soresu as a way of improving defence and offensive capability turning Niman into a supplement or back up form to address the weaknesses of form 5 and 3.
+Jensaarai1 I apologise if this has been asked already but what are your thoughts/opinions on Obi-Wan Kenobi being a possible Niman practitioner (or at least level of study in the Form?) I only ask because of his usage of Form I, Form III, Form IV and Form V throughout the prequel trilogy
You mentioned in a previous video that you consider the 3 rings of defense style a variant of Niman. Will you be exploring this in another video or doing a video of the 3 rings of defense style and other lightsaber combat styles that aren't traditional forms?
+Davisiim Davisiim Jensaarai can't post videos longer than 15 minutes because of his copyright strike, but maybe he could cut it up into pieces... yeah, RUclips is pretty shit right now.
What nobody ever mentions is, in Cestus Deception. Obi-Wan uses an unarmed variant of Seresu against Ventress. Does every form have this variant? Does it mirror the form specifically or is it a generic form of Jedi-Fu modified by the mindset of the individual Jedi?
Also, I thought Palpatine was a Niman practitioner - he was more heavily featured than maul, right? Or do you mean that maul was the most heavily featured combat orientated Niman specialist?
If I could make one retcon to Star Wars, it would be to make Qui-Gon Jinn a Niman master. Not only does it fit his displays of swordsmanship better than Ataru, but the way you describe Niman here really fits Qui-Gon's combat mentality of reacting in the moment. The only point of contention would be Qui-Gon lack of Force power integration in his attacks. This could be explained away by his reverence of the Force, however. He doesn't want to use the Force as a blunt instrument, so he refrains from battering his opponents with it.
noob question: what form did Revan employ? I've seen versus videos where he's employed either Niman or a combination of Ataru and Djem So. I've yet to see any official online record of what style he favored so any information\educated guesses are appreciated. Thanks.
Kevin Velazquez We don’t have a direct source, but Drew Karpyshyn (the head writer of KoTOR) has claimed that Revan knew all seven forms, especially Niman. He is also described as a generalist, rather than a specialist, so the common consensus is that his primary form was Niman, with a fighting style similar to someone like Darach.
Only 2 more months approximately until the copyright strike ends. I can't wait for your full length videos to come back. You're one of my favorite RUclipsrs. Form 6 is right in the middle for me, beneath Forms 2-4 and above form 1, 5, and 7. Not that I dislike any forms, I just prefer some to others.
Also, I'd use 2-4 and 6 primarily, with some elements of 1, 5 and 7. My style would look similar to a combination of Dooku's and Kenobi's. I would be less precise than Dooku and less defensive than Kenobi, but I'd be a close second to each of them, with the Force thrown into the mix. My main (and possibly only) problem would be my inability to dish out or deal with power blows, but my skill with Makashi would allow for deflection parries which would allow for minimal trouble with such attacks.
Love that you've redone your videos Jensaarai, although i wished like the originals this form 6 Niman video ended with that remake BSG theme. Anyways excellent stuff man thumbs up!
What style would the saber pike (one sided Legends version) best be complimented with? I'm curious as I am very much into the pikes. For RP purposes with my friends my entire pike is made of cortosis so it can block incoming saber attacks and gain significant reach.
I'd say an adapted version of Makashi and Dejm So. Makashi would have to be adapted since it was built with the standard in mind, but its stabbing principals would make effective use of the pike along with controlling distances. Then Dejm So given the length of your pikes hilt and the extra power it imparts from leverage along with use of the hilt itself as a defensive tool given its cortosis make.
A very practical style if wielded correctly along with the force. But one question, what on earth does the rancor have in common with moderation? It's like describing a T-Rex as placid
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless they are provoked. The majority of violent Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either elaborately gruesome execution methods, "guard dogs", warbeasts or gladitorial entertainment. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence, which is due them being semi-sapient.
One random question, who is the jedi twilek (don't know if that is the spelling) in the video? At first I thought it was your tipical "any jedi depiction" but she appears in several artwork so that made me curious
+Ben Lusis Never made a video, but I did make a long ass comment. Here it is: I have been trying to work on a matchup for over a year between 2 of the greatest niman master. Darth Krayt vs Exar Kun. While I keep going back and forth, I feel Krayt barely takes it off of force abilities. Slightly greater power in the force, more skilled tk user (shown more subtly and variety such as force throw), can deal with Kun's Sith Sorcery, Tutaminis allows him to deflect or at the least lower the dmg of his force blasts, and has shatterpoint+Dark Transfer. In terms of martial arts though, idk. Their tactics are way to similar to each other so that cancels out. Kun's raw talent makes up the combat experience diff, but Krayt has a logistical advantage. Kun uses his saberstaff by spinning the blade like a quarterstaff in order to counterattack (something I have used when wielding a quarterstaff in sparring matches). Krayt can use the openings created by the spinning due to the fact he has 2 blades. However, not only is Kun skilled in Jar Kai which means chances are he would be on guard for that, I have no idea how Krayt can deal with Kun's Trakata tactics since I believe Krayt has no knowledge about using it or defending against it. I think due to his massive amounts of experience, he could figure it out if he has enough time but chances are Kun could finish him off before that happens. This is further backed up by Kun's superior physique. He is younger, faster, and stronger. I would love peoples thoughts about this matchup. Is my analysis correct? Do you think Exar Kun would win? Thoughts? Also, like always to Jensaarai1, great video. I seriously enjoyed this one a lot and look forward to your future videos.
Another great video for the series. This is definitely the base form that I would aspire to because I love duel blade fencing and integrating force abilities into combat.
I definitely see myself as a combat-oriented Niman practitioner and use it as the basis of a personalized hybrid style that borrows elements from the other forms (similar to Battlemaster Kao Cen Darach or Darth Krayt)
Niman makes Vader scared as the style is so flexible and unpredictable. Niman is a excellent form but a form hard to master and easily rusty if one did not train.
Hence why the greatest Niman duelists are ones who took to the challenge of mastering it are among the premiere duelists of their era, and even among the greatest of all time. Examples: Darth Krayt, Darth Revan, Exar Kun, Kao Cen Darach, & even General Grievous.
Jensaarai1, what are your thoughts on a combination of shii-cho and Niman? Thinking on it, in m mind with consideration to the jedi order pre- order 66, It'd be a highly efficient study curriculum since you're already going to be learning shii-cho as a youngling starting out, and replacing the years training in the other forms as a youngling with Niman, which is essentially the same thing. Also since niman has many shii-cho practices and techniques, it's efficient to branch off from your standard shii-cho practices as a youngling into the shii-cho form as concerned with niman, and then extend into the rest of niman. There by optimizing your time in training towards early mastery of niman, and focusing on the shii-cho once that level has been attained, which the niman practices could help in dealing with shii-cho's mindset development to keep a practitioner in check and resist the use of deadly force, where a niman like solution can instead be just as efficient.
Based on this commentary, I suspect that either Form VI or a hybrid of Forms II and III would likely be my choice to master (were this universe possible).
aNice another great description looking forward to the rest oh and just a quick question will you be covering any of the force assisted martial arts techniques or not really?
I personally like niman quite a bit. It gives more of an opportunity to personalize and experiment more so than other forms. The two problems are that most people who use aren't combat specialist, but I've also noticed that a lot of niman practitioners have a tendency to become too reliant on the force, even the combat oriented ones.
If I was a Jedi I would want to be a Niman Combat Specialist. I would have mastered the basics of form 1, the precision of form 2, the defense and patience of form 3, the force imbued movement of form 4, the power and redirection of form 5 and the speed of form 7. Combining this while using force powers such as telekinesis, battle mind, fight sight, force drain, force speed and/or shatter point. There are other possible force abilities to use but this would overtax the user if he/she could not end the battle quickly.
After further study I would change my previous message. I would master Form I to establish a good ground with a lightsaber basic attacks and blocks. Then I would study Forms II through V bringing it all together with Form VI. Concentrating on Form V techniques intergrating them into my Form VI. I think that the to styles in Form V are pretty solid and if you intergrate them with Form VI along with a strong understanding of the other Forms you can have rather solid and adaptable fighting style.
Is the purpose of the Pushing Slash technique to disorient The opponent? The only other benefit I could think is giving the Niman specialist the ability to bear down on the enemy before they can Mount a stable defense, but that seems contrary to the moderation philosophy of the form.
form VI is my personal favorite style because of its adaptability and as a great man once said "Be water my friend "
TheDarthknight N7
Quoted by Bruce Lee. ^_^
TheDarthknight N7 I'm starting to see Niman more as an intellectual form, rather than a physical form. It may not be the most powerful, or fastest, but it takes an incredibly tactical individual to bring out its full potential.
Who said that? Your mom?
Salem Andrada Bruce Lee.
Team VLCN absolutely agree
"whatever an adversary brings to bear, a niman master will respond with the equal and opposite, defeating the opponent by harmonizing with them rather than overpowering them." that is the probably the best description that sums it up which is in itself beautiful.
A true Niman weapon master is a challenge to defeat not necessarily because of his overwhelming skill but because there is no tried and true way to defeat him, every engagement will be unique and will abide by its own individual circumstances.
That's why I disagree that the form isn't suited for battle
@Cody Brock that's true actually. Keyo Cen Derach used it against two Sith, whereas every Niman user on Geonosis died
@@cwrevenant Exactly. Id fall back on solely Soresu or Shien on a battlefield. But in a duel? Niman. All the way.
@@cwrevenant I completely disagree. A "true" Niman Master would go to what works for what is happening. In a 1v1, they'd potentially be the human version of Grievous/An even deadlier version of Vader - constantly able to switch it up to confuse the opponent while having the defensive skills to counter what's coming their way. In a group or battle situation, they would cut back on the extra fluff and go purely to one or two Forms (Soresu and/or Shien probably) because that's what would get the Master out of the situation alive.
A true Mastery of Niman would be the Makashi individual avoidance of being a slave to form taken to the nth degree with all five Forms. Heck, a true Mastery of Niman borders on the utterly supernatural "unbeatable" in most circumstances because they literally use everything from Forms 1-5 in the situations that those moves/skills are most optimised for.
The biggest problems for Niman are two-fold: The sheer time required to master it to that extent is beyond what the majority of Jedi or even Sith would be willing to do. Because it's not mastering a Form, it's becoming a Master of FIVE Forms while doing so in their own unique personal style. And 2 - the Form itself has practically been relegated to nothing more than a lazy way for the Jedi to avoid actually mastering any lightsaber form because they don't consider themselves warriors.
OK so we all agree form 3 form 5 and form 6 are the only true viable forms. Form 4 and form 7 are absolute trash if you don't outclass your opponents.
Form 4 is the absolute example of a trash form against an equally skilled opponent, example Yoda vs Palpatine and qui gon vs maul. Form 4 is useless in a real fight.
I've always found it odd that Niman, the "moderation form," is also called "The way of the Rancor."
Rancors aren't exactly known for their moderation.
But they're known for their adaptability.
Good point. I didn't think about that.
Denis wouldn’t call a rancor cute...
Theory: It may have come from seperate sources that contradicted each other, but all listed as canon at the time. I think it's possible that "way of the rancor" may have either refered to the use of dual sabers, being akin to the arms of a rancor being swung around, or the powers where one slashes and throws an opponent back, akin to the clawed swipe of a rancor slashing someone and sending them flying back.
Its called the way of the rancor because of the deceptive intelligence behind it. Rancors are semi sapient, as well as the above mentioned adaptability.
If Bruce Lee were a Jedi he would totally be a Niman master. “When the opponent expands I contract, when he contracts I expand and when there is an opportunity to hit I do not hit (holds up fist) it hits all by itself.” “Be water, my friend.”
Indeed. Though I may badly misunderstand Jeet Kune Do, Niman sounds a lot like it to me.
So as someone who has studied JKD concepts under Guru Innosanto, I would point out that a lot of those general principles, as well as the concepts of Simple Direct Attack and Attack By Combination, would be found in Form I, postures allowing Attack By Draw are found in every form, and every form likely having their own views on Hand Immobilizing Attack. Only Makashi and Djem-so have the emphasis on linear dynamics that Lee favored, Form II alone with its emphasis on unique offenses and defenses follows the idea of absorb what is useful and discard what is useless, while the training for Form VII in it requiring mastery of multiple Forms mimics his own journey, and if the concept of Progressive Indirect Attack wasn't introduced in Form I it likely was in Forms II and V and only Forms IV and VII had the offensive emphasis for interception he emphasized. I would be curious as to how much of any of the other form conceptual basis gets consistently transferred over to Form VI.
My thoughts exactly. Niman sounds alot like Jeet Kune Do.
"Moderation Form, the Way of the Rancor"
Me: **looks at Rancor rampaging through Mos Eisely destroying everything, going one hundred percent into what it's doing and using brute force to fight**......I don't see the comparison at all.
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless they are provoked. Many Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either execution methods, warbeasts, "guard dogs" or gladiator challenges. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence due to them being semi-sapient.
@@hectoraliegbe9429 so they're kinda like dobermans? They are known for being violent because people raised them that way, not because they are.
Not only that but Rancors are very adaptable to surviving in many different environments, just like Niman.
@@calebkopp7636 Also Rancors are semi-sapient meaning that there is a deceptive intelligence to them (which is similar to the fact that most Niman masters use dirty tricks and tacticts in order to adapt to the varying circumstances of combat and confuse their opponents).
I find it ironic that the greatest Niman masters are the least "moderated." The great Niman masters rely on brutal excess paired with shock and awe tactics. To me, Kao is the only "moderate" Battlemaster Niman Practitioner. In Jensaarai1's Battlemaster vs Berserker video, Jensaarai described Kao as having the tactical mind of Kenobi (the reigning form 3 master of his era). I feel the ultimate Niman masters are either dirty shock and awe fighters or those who have the mindset of a form 3 master. Apply the most appropriate skill to get the job done and no more than that. This theory is backed up by the statement that Niman was mainly derived from Soresu. Though that is just my opinion and sorry if some of my spelling is wrong in advance.
Agreed. A good example being Exar Kun. Who, after his fall to the Dark Side, relied more on brute force. But this occurs when he has one of the blades of his short handled saberstaff.
Kevin Sanchez Thanks! When not using his saberstaff, Kun displayed a tendency for power attacks to brutalize his opponents. Also worth noting, that outside of Kao, the greatest Niman Masters are Sith. So when you think about it, Niman is more of a Sith form (the irony is strong with this form). A, u are a sith inquisitor who uses it so you have more time for force abilities and sorcery or your a Rule of Two Sith who spends more time on politics and manipulating people (Plagueis is the best example of this). B, your Exar Kun or Darth Krayt and just go for unpredictable dirty fighting.
I've noticed this before and I think you're absolutely right. I would blame this apparent disconnect on the lack of specific description of Niman. They initially labelled it as a jack-of-all-trades form, then gave it a whole bunch of specializations (unarmed strikes, saberstaves, dual lightsabers, force power integration). It doesn't surprise me at all that we ended up with the form's greatest masters flying in the face of its core tenant.
That said, I don't really see it as such a disconnect. It makes sense to me that a jack-of-all-trades form would cover its inherent weakness with unorthodox techniques, and that dedicated masters could use these techniques to turn it into a form full of shock and awe tactics. It's also an example of the Sith taking something the Jedi have and corrupting it.
Ted Culbertson That's kinda the thing with Niman. I see that the Niman form is best suited for diplomats/peacekeepers and its roots are in Jedi philosophy.Though, the more you think about it, if you want to win a fight using a moderate jack-of-all-trades form, you would need to be a down and dirty fighter who uses the unorthodox to win the day. Diplomats Niman is great for Jedi and most Rule of Two Sith. But to me, a Sith is best suited for a combat specialist application of Niman. Its not a true disconnect. Instead, its a matter of practicality. If you want to win with a jack-of-all-trades style, you need to screw Jedi Philosophy and kick someone in the balls.
+Rob George Couldn't have put it better myself.
My take on Niman relates to the practice of martial arts. The other forms relate to styles of martial arts such as Karate, Jujitsu, Muay Thai, etc. They are their own unique practice. Niman was created by taking techniques from each of the other styles to create something new. Basically a mixed martial art. Those who trained in the diplomats version basically took a 6 month crash course in self defense. It's enough to help you survive if you need it but it's not much on depth. But if someone with a combat focus were to study Niman with the point of view of wanting to be well grounded in as many aspects of combat as possible they would be a true mixed martial artist, able to adapt in any way needed to the changes in a fight. That, IMO, would be when Niman would come into it's own and be truly effective.
Niman kinda reminds me of Jeet Kun Do, which Bruce Lee created and mastered.
You literally just described how Exar Kun used the Form. He was a warrior who wanted to be well balanced
I think Revan's fighting style is more in-line with traditional Niman than Kun or Krayt.
It is, I believe that he used Niman to balance his skills and use whichever one he felt was necessary to do what he needed to do
This just came to me: casual Niiman is reactive. A Jedi in this way generalizes their opponet's weaknesses and then shifts the style best suited to counter them. However, Combat Orientated Niiman is proactive, with the Jedi here constantly changing styles and forcing their opponent to constantly be reactive trying and failing to predict what the Jedi will do next
yooo..... GREAT observation. i understand how to use the form a bit better now. i was wondering what gave niiman "some teeth", and applying "pressure" by changing styles FIRST makes sense
Kao cen darach has such a cool fighting style imo. I watch the return trailer at least once a week.
diarrheasplatter ikr looked like he was walking on clouds lol, i watched that trailer for like 2 hours once lol
Niman is the lightsaber form of the "master of none", but if one were to truly go into hardcore training of Niman, it may become the "master of all".
Of course, this is only theoretical, but it might be a dangerous form if one were to absolutely perfect it.
Just like Windu did to Juyo.
If someone perfected Niman, it would be incredibly deadly.
@@skatefoil123
For example Exar Kun, Reven and Starkiller.
This is a great form for mixing and matching force techniques, duel blades, double blades, and unarmed combative moves mixed in together
Found your series on the lightsaber forms and I’m glad I did. This is by far the most detailed explanation on Niman I’ve found on RUclips. Niman is my favorite form from Star Wars and I’m glad you have it the credit it deserves from the perspective of Niman fighters rather than scholars.
Niman maybe not a really standardized dueling study like forms I to V, so technically a Niman practitioner should be proficient at the previous forms before tapping into form VI's practice with the Force, either a formal cholar like Cin Drallig and somewhat Dooku since he rarely went to direct combat, or an outfield agent who often travels far and wide and prone to dangerous situations like Kenobi, Vader, Kyle Katarn and Grandmaster Luke.
This is, by far, my favorite form since it has so much potential. In reality, it's effectiveness depends on how the practitioner applies it and I agree with you that most users never take it to its highest level which is why it has such a bad reputation. In reality, it could be called the quissential Jedi form with Juyo being the Sith form.
While Sith are all about power and aggression (Juyo), the Jedi are more about only using the necessary force to counter an opponent's attack before attacking their weaknesses (Niman). It's a bit telling that most of the Jedi that survived till the end of the war studied more aggressive forms and Yoda states in Star Wars Rebels that the Jedi lost their way because they became too focused and entrenched in the war. The dark side clouded their judgement and sight because they could only see the enemy in front of them and attacked it head-on instead of perhaps looking for a different tactic for victory like a Niman specialist would do.
Though I do wonder why Niman is called the Way of the Rancor considering how aggressive rancors are and Niman... well isn't. Rancors also don't really come across as tricksters or anything. Lol.
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless when they are provoked. The majority of violent Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either elaborately gruesome execution methods, "guard dogs", warbeasts or gladiatorial entertainment. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence, which is due them being semi-sapient.
If I was a Jedi, this is the Form I'd definitely employ!
I think I would mix and match multiple forms into a single style
I will use a mix between form 3 and form 6.
You're absolutely right about maul's duel on naboo being mainly a demonstration of his skill in niman.
To Maul using Niman: Maul also implies his force abilities in the second half of the duel, another fact that speaks for him using Niman instead of Juyo
Very best described, dude!
If you've seen _Rebels,_ we see Maul employing Niman against three Inquisitors in a manner very similar to that of Kao Cen Darach and Antares Draco.
I didn't see Niman being used against the Inquisitors. I saw Juyo.
@@tonywright9906 Juyo only works on single opponents.
@@DarthWill3 No it doesn't.
That's Ataru. Lord Maul did alright with dueling against 2 people in TPM.
And before u say Niman, no it wasn't it was Juyo.
@@tonywright9906 I've read _The Jedi Path_ plenty of times; Yoda comments that "Against multiple opponents, only a true Ataru master will prevail." Chapter 31 of _The Old Republic: Annihilation_ says Juyo is "the highly aggressive seventh form of lightsaber combat designed specifically to overwhelm a lone opponent in a one-on-one duel."
@@DarthWill3 Seeing and reading is two different things No practitioner of Form VII uses Juyo the same.Even Mace Windu has taken on multiple opponents using Vaapad.Maul has fought multiple opponents with Juyo. Maul used it against Qui Gon and Obi wan Kenobi.Maul has used it against Black Sun before Phantom Menace.And Maul used it against the Inquisitors. There is nothing lethal or ferocious about Niman. Each kill to the Inquisitors was ferocious,without mercy, and most of all Maul enjoyed it. The Jedi Path has its version but so does the Book of the Sith.And Darth Bane said it best.Sidious took out 3 Jedi Masters with Juyo!!! That wasn't Ataru,and damn sure wasn't Niman, it was Juyo.Yoda is no master of Juyo.Mace Windu is.Maul is.Sidious is.All three Masters of Juyo has taken on multiple opponents. Here's one more,Sidious beat Maul and Savage with Juyo. The Jedi Path says one thing Book of the Sith says another but the live action the novels the prequels say the same thing I've been telling you from jump Juyo or Vaapad doesn't limit themselves to one on one combat.Shatter Point proves this as well.But you left out another important fact.It also overwhelms the defenses of a Soresu master. A typical or average practitioner of Juyo can go one on one,But a specialist, a expert,a master is completely and utterly different.
Most styles have a particular trait or specialization, but I find that Niman and Shii Cho are unique in their potential for improvisational fighting. They have a similar goal but use a different approach to get there. It really comes down to one's learning style. Some are good learners who follow instructions well and would benefit most from a prearranged package built by previous masters - while others tend to go off on their own intuitively reinventing the wheel. Niman specialists being more academic tend to take the former approach, while a Shii Cho master is the latter. I picture Niman practitioners being more measured and calculated like Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, or Exal Kressh, while a Shii Cho master would most likely be more attuned to the living force like Qui-Gon Jinn, Kitt Fisto, or Fay. (I know they're not all practitioners of those styles, but the archetype fits) Both are capable of truly unique results.
Jensaraai1, please never stop making these videos. they are thoughtful and extremely informative, and some of the best analysis I have ever come across in either print or visual media.
The older I get the more I appreciate what Form VI has to offer
I love how there's so many discussions, theorizing, and talking about lightsaber combat in the comments to this video, it's great! :P
Niman is my favorite form, mostly because I absolutely love adaptive fighting styles
Great job on this video. Niman is one of my favorite forms and it is often underrated, but not here.
I like this form because it's up to the individual in how he or she wishes to mix and learn the different styles.
Niman is my favourite form, I've been waiting for this video
since you started this series and you did not disappoint. I never understood how Niman could be so underrated just because you get a bunch of second rate scholars using the absolute basics. People don't hate Soresu just because Coleman Trebor uses it, so why judge Niman because of all the bad examples? Ps. I liked how you used some of the terms from part 1 ofthe Plagiues review for this video. Very well done sir
Great video, good to see Niman getting some love. Most people just don't seem to consider that the type of person most likely to specialize in Form 6 also tend to be to the same ones that have less focus on combat.
Niman is the Jeet Kune Do of the lightsaber forms. It's the one that uses any and all styles that are effective and that work for the practitioner.👁👁
Also Niman was the most popular Jedi fighting style of all time. Classic Niman was adopted as a fighting style long before the lightsaber became the standard weapon of the Jedi and it persisted long enough to be adapted into Form VII.
I love these kind of videos. They really help me understand more about the forms that I want to learn how to do. Please keep making them.
When will you make the videos of non-traditional lightsaber combat that includes the ones in the New Jedi Order, including Trakata, Lus-Ma, Kai-Kan, Strong Style, Medium Style, and Fast Style? Don't forget Jar'Kai.
Exar Kun vs Darth Krayt: who is the true master of Niman
Exar Kun for sure. Darth Krayt was a true Jar'Kai master.
+TheSunStudio1 agreed
I did a comment about that matchup in this video. I say Krayt takes it though idk.
niman is a do what works for you so the question is who is more creative?
Joshua Vale Clearly Exar Kun then, he even created a unique weapon for his fighting style.
THANK YOU! You covered more of my favorite dark Jedi, Exar, in this section. He was justly described. I do wish there was more on him, he was suuuuch a source of opportunity for amazing story. Still is imho.
My favorite saber form. Jedi I think should start off with this to have all bases covered, then branch out with a form he or she chooses. A good combo should be an understanding of Niman with Shien and Soresu. That's my preference anyway. Great vids!
my combo is soresu/djem so/niman
+Elf Friend makashi,soresu,and djem so
I'd go Makashi, Soresu, and Djem So.
I'd use Form V and Form II because the strength-based attacks of Djem So might balance out the lack of kinetic force of Makashi.
Always liked the idea of Niman/Soreasu specialist. Wear the opponent downand understand their moves and counter with a barrage of the almighty force.
Hey jensaari, my favorite form soresu, I was thinking a few days ago about this form, and what kind of Jedi it would be useful for, I think it's more useful for less lightsaber combat oriented jedis/siths, like maybe more skill based or more force focused, or even jedi deplomats, those are who I think soresu would be most useful for, because the would avoid having to use their lightsaber, but when they had to they would focus on defense.
so to me,I knoe niman is sometimes called the way of the deplomat, but I agree with you statement in the forcecast, it's more of a soldier's form.
so I think that soresu it more of a deplomats form, or you could say pacifist's form, what do you think?
Exar Kun didn't wield it as a quarterstaff. A quarterstaff is called this way because usually, you wield it at the edge (at one quarter of the staff) to get a reach advantage. You don't do that with a double lightsaber.
Only in specific circumstances do you wield a quarterstaff in its middle.
FallenByTheHand wouldn't a lightsaber pike (the original version used by the Emperor's Shadow Guard from the Force Unleashed) be better used as a quarterstaff?
I like these videos a lot, I would be very interested to know more examples of Niman fighters who keep to a single blade style. I get the idea that most Jedi we see in combat are more than likely practitioners of the form, but seeing how it differs from the other forms (rather than as a sum of their parts) would be very interesting.
It’s difficult with certain forms as there can be numerous overlap between tactics, maneuvers, etc. and I’m not even talking about Niman which was made to be an amalgam.
7:46, that mention of the Jedi with a green lightsaber reminded me of Qui-Gon Jinn and his failure again Darth Maul. Green blades are often a signifier of a Jedi who is more of a scholar a diplomat. Those who have a deeper spiritual connection to the Force. It’s only fitting that their combative prowess would diminish as they prioritize preparing and strengthening their spirit and mind rather than their body.
I think it would be awesome to mainly learn Makashi and combine it with Niman concepts to make it less specialized (take some tools to deal with power blows and multiple opponents). And maybe add a second shoto-saber in the off hand to be used like a parrying dagger with the main saber for more defense with the Makashi elements.
Not all Niman specialist are moderate. Some Niman specialist don't go for the moderation but went for Bruce Lee's be water my friend mentality. Shapeless and formless, mastering all seven and turn it all into one boundless form. Revan is one of those Niman type user.
As a Jedi Consular, i prefer Lightsaber Combat Form:
Form I Shii cho - The Determination Form
Form III Soresu - The Resilience Form
Form V Shien/Djem so - The Perseverance Form
Form VI Niman - The Moderation Form (The Diplomats Form) (The Consular Form)
This has given me a greater appreciation for Niman and all its users
Form VI is great for its unpredictability (an asset carried over by Form VII with its unpredictable, staccato sequences perhaps?)
How many fallen Jedi turned Sith Lords were Niman practitioners compared to the number of Form V specialist Jedi who became Sith Lords?
Glad to see Form VI is getting some appreciation :-)
So would a Jedi begin studying Form 6 after finishing basic form 1??
Or would they start after finishing training in the basics of 1-5???
I know Jensaarai mentions this but I've never heard it put that way before. I've heard you have to be somewhat skilled in the other forms before beginning form 6. But that doesn't quite make sense as you'd already be well versed in the basics of the previous forms. The way Jensaarai describes it, you can go into 6 right from form 1.
Can someone clear this up for me?
Is it a progression on the others requiring skill and knowledge in them before starting..
Or does form 6 get around that as it combines the fundamentals of 1-5 and you don't need to study them individually from form 6?
Apologies for the rambling..
It is a bit confusing. The original Fightsaber article appears to say that a Jedi can spend a year or two studying Forms III, IV and V after completing basic Form I training *or* go straight into Form VI training which can take up to a decade to master. However the Jedi Path is laid out as if Padawans would go on to study Forms II to VI as part of their training. Given that both documents are a thousand years apart it is likely that training methods changed over the centuries so both are technically true.
The short answer to your question I think would therefore be: it depends on the era in question.
A thousand years before the movies: a Padawan would study all six lightsaber forms as an apprentice
Around the time of the prequel trilogy: a Padawan would study either Forms III, IV or V (before specialising in one of them) or go straight to Form VI which is said to be the standard of Jedi training at that time.
And I don’t mean to confuse even more but Obi-Wan Kenobi seems to use Forms IV, V and VI as a Padawan in TPM.
The Fightsaber article is the holy grail of lightsaber combat lore but it’s description of Form VI seems to clash with every other source that has come out after it detailing the lightsaber forms.
I’m really sorry if this hasn’t helped.
@@ariesstorm9577 it was helpful. Thank you.
What type of lightsaber would you say is best suited for Niman practitioners. One handed, Curved, Shoto, Duo, Saberstaff, Saberpike?
+Jensaarai1 "A blank slate that could be whatever the user needed it to be," can you go into more depth on this?
I'd say a standard lightsaber and shoto. Far more practical than two standard lightsabers.
Yes maybe a demo of it would help.
two full length single hilt sabers that can connect in the middle so you can use a single saber, dual sabers or the saber staff. However it's more of a question of what aspects of niman do you emphasize? I don't care for dual wielding, so I would emphasize force based attacks
can you do a versus video on darth maul vs exar kun
Niman is another one of my favorite forms next to V and III. I often find myself displaying some skill with it when I'm practicing with my saberstaff or even my shoto
Watching this video again has me wanting to see Krayt vs Kun versus series.
Shii Cho through 'diplomats' Niman seems to set an amazing benchmark for specialisation into other forms, except maybe Makashi due to its pinpoint focus and not being incorporated into the basic training of Niman(incorporates forms I, III, IV, V but not form II). Although Asajj Ventress successfully hybridised Makashi and Jar'Kai, proving it's not impossible. Still, my specialisation would likely be in Djem So with elements of Soresu, maintaining a strong defence while looking for an opening with either Djem So or an integrated force ability. From there, I would press the attack with Djem So, probably unintentionally using force rage. Not an infallible fighting style, but a likely accurate description of my style based on my known strengths and weaknesses.
Love this form! Aways wanted to have a Niman/Soreasu specialist jedi. Wear the opponent down and analyze their move set only to retaliate with the force force for openings.
Is Cal Kestis a Niman specialist? He uses the "come closer" technique or is that just a one-off technique made for the game?
Observering his fighting style from the game it seems he was learning it during his jedi training and most of his victories vs troopers and trilla he uses notable techniques from the form
Great video on Niman, but you left someone out: Revan. From what I've heard, Revan mastered all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, but the one that he generally preferred to use was Niman (even though his classic ready stance is more of a Juyo ready stance).
This is essentially Niman as described - anything or all of the above rather than a specific style.
Having no style as style, as Bruce Lee would put it.
Is Exar Kun the most powerful or the most greatest?
I agree with you saying that Niman is really a tricksters form, however if it were possible I would rather utilize it with Form 3 as a back up. Even if you were a combat orientated Niman user, the ability to simply stand your ground and stonewall is always useful when all other options fail you. And although with Form 6 these instances might not come up often because of the benefits the form contains, it still would help to pair it with a purely defencive form. So, in a universe in which this all possible, i would go for Forms 3 and 6.
Can someone please tell me where/what the footage starting at 6:10 is from?! That looks awesome!
This would be a from I world practice. I feel that this, not Shii-Cho, should be tutorial style of the Jedi. By having this as the basic training and then focusing on only one from, as Count Dooku suggested, you would have well rounded fighters with at least one specialized skill.
Honestly, I feel like Niman should be essential as a supplementary form, with the practitioner focusing on another Form. It's use of adaptation, I feel, is one of the most useful attributes a fighter can have; fight smarter, not harder.
I agree entirely, Niman would work as a lightsaber form that serves as a basis to advance a single form of specialization or to mix forms to the tailored desires of the duelist.
In a way, it is no surprise that it was the standard of Jedi training during the Clone War Era, the only issue, is that it seemed that most Jedi just took Niman as far as step one and refused to go further, content with its basics. Such a waste of potential combative skill.
I agree if anything it's a great way for you transition into other forms if your defense is weak transition to soresu or shien and djem so or makashi for lightsaber to lightsaber dueling.
This video reignited my love of Niman. Thanks Connor
Niman is always interesting because it's pure swordplay is arguably the weakest. But it's arguably the best form when it comes to adding either a extra blade, or using the alter force abilities in the midst of battle. It's definitely at its weakest when only one sabre is used, and the force is not called upon as frequently.
I'd say it's the perfect form to start learning then use it as a transitions into other forms.
I'd learn Niman first then move towards from 5 shien and soresu as a way of improving defence and offensive capability turning Niman into a supplement or back up form to address the weaknesses of form 5 and 3.
Curious to see what you do with Juyo.
I know it would take about 10 years to master Niman, but is that lightsaber combat only or does that include force abilities?
+Jensaarai1 I apologise if this has been asked already but what are your thoughts/opinions on Obi-Wan Kenobi being a possible Niman practitioner (or at least level of study in the Form?) I only ask because of his usage of Form I, Form III, Form IV and Form V throughout the prequel trilogy
You mentioned in a previous video that you consider the 3 rings of defense style a variant of Niman. Will you be exploring this in another video or doing a video of the 3 rings of defense style and other lightsaber combat styles that aren't traditional forms?
Would that include a video on Trakata? I personally love that fighting style.
+Wa7chfac3 Historian omg you are sooooo right about trykata. Neeeeeed an hour long video on that......and exar kun, but for 4 hours.
+Wa7chfac3 Historian that would be pretty sweet to see.
+Davisiim Davisiim Jensaarai can't post videos longer than 15 minutes because of his copyright strike, but maybe he could cut it up into pieces... yeah, RUclips is pretty shit right now.
Michael Laserroam that suuuuucks. I agree, chop chop chop
My favorite. Btw Jacen Solo was also an excellent example of Form VI which allowed him go best even the Battlemaster Kyke Katern
What nobody ever mentions is, in Cestus Deception. Obi-Wan uses an unarmed variant of Seresu against Ventress. Does every form have this variant? Does it mirror the form specifically or is it a generic form of Jedi-Fu modified by the mindset of the individual Jedi?
Also, I thought Palpatine was a Niman practitioner - he was more heavily featured than maul, right? Or do you mean that maul was the most heavily featured combat orientated Niman specialist?
If I could make one retcon to Star Wars, it would be to make Qui-Gon Jinn a Niman master. Not only does it fit his displays of swordsmanship better than Ataru, but the way you describe Niman here really fits Qui-Gon's combat mentality of reacting in the moment. The only point of contention would be Qui-Gon lack of Force power integration in his attacks. This could be explained away by his reverence of the Force, however. He doesn't want to use the Force as a blunt instrument, so he refrains from battering his opponents with it.
I like this one. Looking forward to Juyo. How much longer until it's finished?
noob question: what form did Revan employ? I've seen versus videos where he's employed either Niman or a combination of Ataru and Djem So. I've yet to see any official online record of what style he favored so any information\educated guesses are appreciated. Thanks.
Kevin Velazquez We don’t have a direct source, but Drew Karpyshyn (the head writer of KoTOR) has claimed that Revan knew all seven forms, especially Niman. He is also described as a generalist, rather than a specialist, so the common consensus is that his primary form was Niman, with a fighting style similar to someone like Darach.
Only 2 more months approximately until the copyright strike ends. I can't wait for your full length videos to come back. You're one of my favorite RUclipsrs. Form 6 is right in the middle for me, beneath Forms 2-4 and above form 1, 5, and 7. Not that I dislike any forms, I just prefer some to others.
Also, I'd use 2-4 and 6 primarily, with some elements of 1, 5 and 7. My style would look similar to a combination of Dooku's and Kenobi's. I would be less precise than Dooku and less defensive than Kenobi, but I'd be a close second to each of them, with the Force thrown into the mix. My main (and possibly only) problem would be my inability to dish out or deal with power blows, but my skill with Makashi would allow for deflection parries which would allow for minimal trouble with such attacks.
Hence the integration of some Form V techniques into your overall hybridised form.
+Nathan Mitchell I was more referring to me not focusing at all on my physical strength.
What was that game it was showing when he was talking about easy to learn form for librarians
Is the purple twi'lek (what's her name?) throughout this video a Niman specialist, too?
Yes but she was fluent in Shien as well.
Love that you've redone your videos Jensaarai, although i wished like the originals this form 6 Niman video ended with that remake BSG theme. Anyways excellent stuff man thumbs up!
What style would the saber pike (one sided Legends version) best be complimented with? I'm curious as I am very much into the pikes. For RP purposes with my friends my entire pike is made of cortosis so it can block incoming saber attacks and gain significant reach.
NERD IT UP The Saber pike I imagine you'd use Jar'kai.
Jar'kai is more for duel blades. The Saber Pike of Legends has one blade and a long shaft to grip from a wide area for different lengths of attack.
I'd say an adapted version of Makashi and Dejm So. Makashi would have to be adapted since it was built with the standard in mind, but its stabbing principals would make effective use of the pike along with controlling distances. Then Dejm So given the length of your pikes hilt and the extra power it imparts from leverage along with use of the hilt itself as a defensive tool given its cortosis make.
A very practical style if wielded correctly along with the force.
But one question, what on earth does the rancor have in common with moderation? It's like describing a T-Rex as placid
Rancors are peaceful creatures, unless they are provoked. The majority of violent Rancors seen in Canon and Legends were trained to be either elaborately gruesome execution methods, "guard dogs", warbeasts or gladitorial entertainment. Rancors are also known for their adaptability and deceptive intelligence, which is due them being semi-sapient.
One random question, who is the jedi twilek (don't know if that is the spelling) in the video? At first I thought it was your tipical "any jedi depiction" but she appears in several artwork so that made me curious
She's Rachi Sitra
Thanks man!
Erick Puma no problem
...How many requests for a Kun vs Krayt vs series are needed before it comes to life??
+Ben Lusis Idk but I can copy/paste my thoughts on this matchup. Still agree with my verdict I made a year ago.
Rob George What verdict a year ago? You already made a video on this match up? send me a link!
+Ben Lusis Never made a video, but I did make a long ass comment. Here it is: I have been trying to work on a matchup for over a year between 2 of the greatest niman master. Darth Krayt vs Exar Kun. While I keep going back and forth, I feel Krayt barely takes it off of force abilities. Slightly greater power in the force, more skilled tk user (shown more subtly and variety such as force throw), can deal with Kun's Sith Sorcery, Tutaminis allows him to deflect or at the least lower the dmg of his force blasts, and has shatterpoint+Dark Transfer. In terms of martial arts though, idk. Their tactics are way to similar to each other so that cancels out. Kun's raw talent makes up the combat experience diff, but Krayt has a logistical advantage. Kun uses his saberstaff by spinning the blade like a quarterstaff in order to counterattack (something I have used when wielding a quarterstaff in sparring matches). Krayt can use the openings created by the spinning due to the fact he has 2 blades. However, not only is Kun skilled in Jar Kai which means chances are he would be on guard for that, I have no idea how Krayt can deal with Kun's Trakata tactics since I believe Krayt has no knowledge about using it or defending against it. I think due to his massive amounts of experience, he could figure it out if he has enough time but chances are Kun could finish him off before that happens. This is further backed up by Kun's superior physique. He is younger, faster, and stronger. I would love peoples thoughts about this matchup. Is my analysis correct? Do you think Exar Kun would win? Thoughts? Also, like always to Jensaarai1, great video. I seriously enjoyed this one a lot and look forward to your future videos.
Another great video for the series. This is definitely the base form that I would aspire to because I love duel blade fencing and integrating force abilities into combat.
excellent analysis and commentary, niman is deff the most interesting form
I definitely see myself as a combat-oriented Niman practitioner and use it as the basis of a personalized hybrid style that borrows elements from the other forms (similar to Battlemaster Kao Cen Darach or Darth Krayt)
It was said that all form 6 users died at the battle of geonois
Out of curiosity, how many versus videos have you finished to put up when your strike is lifted?
Niman makes Vader scared as the style is so flexible and unpredictable. Niman is a excellent form but a form hard to master and easily rusty if one did not train.
Hence why the greatest Niman duelists are ones who took to the challenge of mastering it are among the premiere duelists of their era, and even among the greatest of all time. Examples: Darth Krayt, Darth Revan, Exar Kun, Kao Cen Darach, & even General Grievous.
Is the Jedi Path considered canon or legends?
Jensaarai1, what are your thoughts on a combination of shii-cho and Niman?
Thinking on it, in m mind with consideration to the jedi order pre- order 66, It'd be a highly efficient study curriculum since you're already going to be learning shii-cho as a youngling starting out, and replacing the years training in the other forms as a youngling with Niman, which is essentially the same thing. Also since niman has many shii-cho practices and techniques, it's efficient to branch off from your standard shii-cho practices as a youngling into the shii-cho form as concerned with niman, and then extend into the rest of niman. There by optimizing your time in training towards early mastery of niman, and focusing on the shii-cho once that level has been attained, which the niman practices could help in dealing with shii-cho's mindset development to keep a practitioner in check and resist the use of deadly force, where a niman like solution can instead be just as efficient.
7:08 Trakata is more worthy of being called the tricksters form. ... Are you going to do videos for forms other than the classic 7?
Based on this commentary, I suspect that either Form VI or a hybrid of Forms II and III would likely be my choice to master (were this universe possible).
Wasn't this the prefered form of Revan?
Favorite form for sure. I would devote myself to mastery of Niman if I were in the order.
aNice another great description looking forward to the rest oh and just a quick question will you be covering any of the force assisted martial arts techniques or not really?
Form 6 is Form 3 taken to the next level.
My favorite thing about niman is that some fanfictions have called it “The Way of the Stranger” makes it even better!
Well another user of this form is Revan, who used it as his preferred method for the broad skill set he had developed during his time as a force user
my favorite form and THIS! is a perfect explanation of it.
Is the page of 3:48 from a book?
Exar Kun vs Darth Krayt when the strike is removed. That video would be right up your alley.
I personally like niman quite a bit. It gives more of an opportunity to personalize and experiment more so than other forms. The two problems are that most people who use aren't combat specialist, but I've also noticed that a lot of niman practitioners have a tendency to become too reliant on the force, even the combat oriented ones.
If I was a Jedi I would want to be a Niman Combat Specialist. I would have mastered the basics of form 1, the precision of form 2, the defense and patience of form 3, the force imbued movement of form 4, the power and redirection of form 5 and the speed of form 7. Combining this while using force powers such as telekinesis, battle mind, fight sight, force drain, force speed and/or shatter point. There are other possible force abilities to use but this would overtax the user if he/she could not end the battle quickly.
After further study I would change my previous message. I would master Form I to establish a good ground with a lightsaber basic attacks and blocks. Then I would study Forms II through V bringing it all together with Form VI. Concentrating on Form V techniques intergrating them into my Form VI. I think that the to styles in Form V are pretty solid and if you intergrate them with Form VI along with a strong understanding of the other Forms you can have rather solid and adaptable fighting style.
Is the purpose of the Pushing Slash technique to disorient The opponent? The only other benefit I could think is giving the Niman specialist the ability to bear down on the enemy before they can Mount a stable defense, but that seems contrary to the moderation philosophy of the form.