“Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form 3 practitioner” _shows an octogenarian and a 60-year old attempting to smack each other with sticks_
The philosophy of Soresu (and other lightsaber forms) can be applied in real-life sport sparring for various martial arts. Using blocks and dodges to tire an aggressive opponent, wait for them to make a mistake, then unleash a set of counterattacks to score points, rinse and repeat.
My instructors would disagree. Most martial arts would prefer you to take the leading a fight, especially for self-defense. If you can take the lead you can pressure the attacker to back off, dissuade them , or have the abillity to control the rest of the fight.
@danlomanalo4161 because you have to to be 100% effective with every parry and block, where as they only have to score one hit against you, essentially you would tire out more quickly than them pretty much everytime.
Soresu is also recommended to be mixed with other forms, that reposte very useful in transition to form v or form I. Many of form i's basic movements flow right into and right out of soresu.
Excellent work, my friend, as always. There are a few points that I wish to point out, of course: 1. Another reason for Obi-Wan's final victory over Grievous was the General's most recent injuries, thus reducing the usual effectiveness of his bladework; until that time, Obi-Wan had never been able to take a hand or two from Grievous. 2. Darth Bane made Zannah focus solely on Soresu because she lacked any physical requirements for the more aggressive forms of lightsaber combat. However, after the events of _Dynasty of Evil,_ I would wager that Zannah had adopted other forms into her style while training Darth Cognus.
DarthWill3 the injury was made uncanon what’s canon is count doku saying that obi wan is able to beat him along with anakin yoda mace and 1 or 2 other noobs
If you take a closer look at Grievous in _ROTS,_ during the Battle of Coruscant and before the final duel, you can see that the plates covering his internal organ sac is badly damaged. The green is shown through the cracks.
the injury being made uncanon is irrelevant. if it happened in legends, it happened. as for Kenobi never being able to 'take a hand or two from Grievous' i direct you to the episode Grievous Intrigue, where Kenobi bests Grievous and several magnaguards in combat and drives Grievous to retreat.
@@baoanhnguyen9186How I wish that were true. And how I wish Dooku and Anakin and Obi-Wan would not meet between their first duel on Geonosis and their last aboard Invisible Hand.
"12 strikes per second"? I thought Grievous's maximum attack speed was 18 strikes per second? Still, there's no question whatsoever that Obi-Wan Kenobi is the poster boy for Soresu Lightsaber combat.
+Jensaarai1 what is impressive is that obi wan's defense weren't over loaded until Griveous got to that point in the fight. That's proof that obi wan had earned his reputation as master of the third form during the clone wars.
When old Obiwan was fighting Vader on the death star, his old age combined with relatively weak force sensitivity especially relative to Vader, he was forced to rely on Shii Cho techniques he learnt as a youngling. He had to go back to the very basics as even Soresu was too demanding on his aged body.
@@TheFilthyFinch In the legends book series 'Jedi Apprentice', Obi wan as a youngling failed his padawan trials after begging multiple masters, including qui gon to take him on as a padawan. Windu was also very skeptical of him just as he was Anakin and wanted him not to progress in his training, but Yoda saw his potential and petitioned multiple masters to take him on. He was on the verge of being kicked out of the jedi order and sent to work in public service as a farm hand. When qui gon was assigned a mission to the planet that Obi wan was to work as a farmer, they worked together to complete the mission and Qui gon was impressed with his dedication and passion to being a Jedi and reluctantly took him on. In the recent series we see Obi wan struggling VERY hard against Vader, who was nowhere near his full human strength. In a new hope, we see him struggling even more, barely able to keep up the fight. Their 3rd duel is a pale shadow compared to both of their peak power in Mustafar. Vader was extremely cautious in his attacks as he remembered the last 2 times he was overconfident which is why his fighting style looked stripped bare.
Soresu and Makashi are both forms that even non-force sensitives could learn to decent competency given decades of training. They don't rely on force augmented power or acrobatics but deep knowledge and muscle memory of blocking slow travelling blaster bolts or thousands of hours of sparring with a droid, progressively increasing its capability as your own skill increases. It fits Obi wan's skillset perfectly- as someone with a relatively low midicholorian count even compared to a stock standard Knight but who works 10 times harder than anyone else in the Order, he has worked his way up out of pure dedication to the Jedi path to being one of the top combatants in the clone wars.
The following is an excerpt from the novel Labyrinth of Evil, written by James Luceno, and shows that Form III is more than capable with blaster bolt redirection associated with Form V: "Obi-Wan leapt to one side, raising his blade to deal with two bolts that got past Anakin. The first he returned toward its source; the second, he parried at a deliberately downward angle. Striking the grotto's hard-packed floor, the deflected bolt ricocheted to one wall, then to the ceiling, to the other wall, and back to the floor, from which it caromed squarely into the control panel that operated the tunnel door. Showering sparks, the device shorted out, and a slab of thick alloy dropped from its pocket in the wall, sealing the tunnel with a loud thud! Switching off his lightsaber, Anakin cast a complimentary glance over his shoulder. "Nicely done, Master." "The beauty of Form Three," Obi-Wan said with theatrical nonchalance. "You should try it sometime." "You've always been better at evasion than I have," Anakin said. "I prefer more straightforward tactics." Obi-Wan rolled his eyes. "Master of understatement.""
This is one style I can really get behind. Solid defense combined with tight, efficient movements to limit fatigue is something I can do. However, I do not believe I would have an answer for Soresu’s lack of dedicated offense. Like with Ataru, good, but not great.
Excellent overview, Jensaarai1. While I did state that I'd prefer Makashi, upon further reflection and deep contemplation, I do see myself as someone who would follow Soresu. I do like having a strong defense and am not the type to initiate combat, rather the type who responds and tries to counter attack/defend. I also realize this because maybe it is due to my introverted aspect, but I tend to internalize a lot to which Soresu does a lot. With that said, in your view, do those who partake in Soresu tend to be those who like to think two steps ahead and or have a baseline plan?
In terms of personality I also match Form III (I am at heart a pacifist). I often thought I would prefer either Djem So, Niman or a less acrobatic Ataru, but when I really think about it I am mostly suited to Form III and Form VI (pacifism and adaptability).
If you tend to counterattack with a strong offense and insane bladework, then you’d be a form 5 master. “Strong style” as the Sith called it. Like Anakin Skywalker by ROTS. If this shit was real, I’d deff take on form 5, and fall back on form 1 as a back up if only for the movement and fluidity combined with the strength and bladework of form 5.
Can't wait to see form 6! By far the most underestimated form from what I see on the interwebs. 3 and 6 are my favs personally :D Also, GREAT job man. Very informative.
Another great video for the new playlist of lightsaber forms. I also think that you or maybe one of your Council compatriots should make a full video about the reverse grip detailing it's perceived strengths and weaknesses and how the different forms utilize it. There are few force users who seem to exclusively or at least mostly exclusively use it but we've seen tons of different people use it here or there. I initially thought it was strictly a form V thing but having seen it in several other forms now I would love a more in-depth analysis of it.
My favourite form. To be honest my cousin and I have our own duels and I use this form almost extensively. Sometimes also combining some of form 2 along with it, whereas my cousin uses form 5
I think Obi-Wan successfully melded Soresu and Ataru into a singular style, being able to fluidly switch between the defensive applications of the former into the aggressive sequences of the latter seamlessly. Plus in the ROTS novel he employs an acrobatic Ataru movement, one that Dooku observed and executed an attack that should have cut Obi-Wan up, but he employed Soresu to cover himself and I believe it’s that moment that Dooku realises Kenobi’s true style isn’t Ataru, but rather Soresu.
Is it me or does soresu have some Tai’chi elements? “You are the calm in the storm while your opponents rage about.” Mediation and the Jian sword movements (circle of shelter) are big hints.
I’ve been a full sureso user for the past 2 years after leaving shi-cho I realize that it is hard to find opportunities to strike later in the fight, as they adapt to my form and use an offensive form. I think I should use a small sliver of Ataru. What do your think?
Soresu and Ataru are excellent styles if used properly. May I recommend some Dejm So/Shien as well? The problem with Soresu and Ataru is that they are complete opposites in terms of how they move. Soresu is a static style characterized by shifting from one block to the next, while Ataru is bouncy, energetic, and is noted to have complicated blade work. The couple seconds to shift your stance and your guard is extremely telling to anyone who is proficient. So form V should help you with the initial counterattack while you transition to Ataru while also providing more options both defensively and offensively.
may i recommend makashi, as makashi also relies on very efficient movements to maximum benefit as soresu does. you can use soresu until you notice a mistake in your opponent's attack, then switch to makashi sequences to try to exploit your opponent and throw him off. I would imagine practising makashi would be extremely similar to how you practise soresu
It's hilarious to me that Luminara Unduli once said: 'a master of Form 3 is truly invincible', yet as a true master of the form, she got outdueled by Ventress in TCW! Also, let's not forget about Jedi High Council member Coleman Trebor, well considered as a true master of Form '3' yet, got gunned down by Jango Fett in '3' shots!
10Tabris01 Kenobi was defeated multiple times before, in TCW. By Maul, Dooku, Cad Bane... Even forced to retreat by GG once. Plus, he never was just the true master of Form 3, he mastered Form 1, 4, 5 and 6 as well. He was a master of multiple forms and used all of them in combat. Kenobi was far from an one trick pony like those "A master of Form 3 is truly invincible" masters, who only mastered Form 3 along and thought they are unbreakable!
Well I personally find form 3's defensive abilities admirable, I have to echo the criticisms of the style. A lack of Offensive options is not so much a weakness as an intentional limitation, & that lack of options leaves the user vulnerable to the unexpected & unorthodox.
I have a few ideas for the versus series: 1. Galen Marek vs Obi Wan Kenobi 2. Darth Malgus vs Anakin Skywalker 3. Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Bane 4. Revan vs Darth Vader. 5.*Maul and Dooku and Vader vs Sidious 6. Satele Shan vs Starkiller (TFS2) What do you think?
1. Obi-Wan, but not easily. 2. Close, but most likely Skywalker by the skin of his teeth. 3. Bane. No question. 4. He said he's never using Revan, though this would be a good fight. 5. With their combined powers, Sidious would be destroyed, though Maul may be killed in the fight. 6. Most likely Shan.
Stephen Pennino 1. Well, I think it could go either way, with Kenobi having an experience/skill edge on Galen and Galen being physically on par and being slightly more powerful than Kenobi. 2. Why does Bane win no question? Anakin is more experienced, was said by Dooku to be the best Djem So user he'd ever seen (keep in mind he was one the best lightsaber instructors in the Jedi order) and easily one of the best duelists of his era, which says a lot considering how his era was filled with exceptional duelists. I believe that it was stated, if my memory serves me right, by the stunt director of ROTS that Anakin was on the same level as Yoda and Sidious when it came to dueling. His raw power with the force could contend with Bane's. Even Obi Wan said that Anakin had surpassed him. I think that Bane has a small edge against Anakin, but it would be an interesting battle. 3. Pity, though I'm confident that Vader would win. 4. I'm talking about Legends Sidious, though I still think that they would win through an epic battle and I more confident that Vader will die at the end by way of Sidious shorting out his respirator and Vader holds out until the end of the battle . Canon would be against Maul and Dooku, still would be an awesome fight. 5. I don't know, Satele may be a little more skilled than Starkiller, but I believe that Satrkiller is slightly more powerful than Satele and when it comes to physical ability, Starkiller may or may not be stronger than Satele while being just as skilled acrobatically.
Well done. i impressed with obi wan ability to block that many strikes per second. Very funny bit about using dual blades or doubladed lightsabers in form 3.
Which Form would be more sadistic in the hands of a Sith: Makashi or Soresu? Form II uses light cuts and linear stabs but Form III keeps you and your enemies alive longer (if only to endure more unnecessary pain).
A form which counters but never on the offensive. it's only weakness is delaying the inevitable when the opponent is not falling into a state of aggression and frustration. This form keeps you from tiring out easily as its moves is simple and minimal. Mix it up with other forms you get yourself a devastating unique style. All the forms can blend with this form except Form VII, Juyo/Vapaad is to unleash a furry/offence letting the flow of battle get to you that breaks the mentality of Soresu
galen marek uses soresu and juyo. the original one not the dual wielding clone who may not be a clone cuz vader is super shifty. for merging juyo and soresu, basically do what darth zannah did, master the technical aspect of it but not it's core philosophy so you get the defence and can also then throw in juyo.
Obi Wan blended Ataru with Soresu. Not to the extent of Vader's blended form, but Obi Wan's training of Ataru with Quick Gon influenced his technique when applicable. In other words Obi Wan is 95% Soresu 5% Ataru to add power to his counters.
If you look at the beginning fight of Vader and Obi-Wan in episode 3.Vader lept bringing his saber into fallen avalanche. Obi-Wan braced himself becoming a immovable object
I know you don't like Rebels, but a good example of an amateur level demonstration of Soresu in my opinion would be during the parts Kanan Jarrus used it during his first duel with The Grand Inquisitor.
2:27, I wouldn’t say that it’s anything to scoff at. The real issue is only letting this defense take away from the practitioners offense like with Zainah.
Was Yoda using Form III against Dooku in the AOTC novelisation? It sounded like he was using the Circle of Shelter technique before launching into his typical Ataru acrobatic assault.
Back when I practiced martial arts, my natural style was akin to Soresu. I remember stating to my various teachers that I always felt open when I attacked, and this was proven because I'd get hit almost every time. However, if I defended and let my opponent tire themselves out, I found that I was more inclined towards counter-strikes. Perhaps my disenchantment with martial arts is due to the fact that I tried to play their game instead of developing my own natural inclinations.
Martial Arts is a very personal thing in regards to development. My brother and I both studied the same styles for the same amount of time and there is a noticeable difference in skill. He is by far the better hand to hand fighter between the two of us, not because of a lack of skill on my end. The reason is his attack mentality. He's aggressive and dominates the fight whereas I'm more reactive in my tactics. Where things change is in grappling and weapons. For some strange reason I'm impossible to lock down in a pin and I spent more time practicing with weapons as a way to further improve my footwork. If you ever decide to pick it up, may I recommend Aikido? Its the most Soresu like martial art I've ever seen. It has next to no attacks in it and is instead a passive style that wins when the attacker gets tired of being thrown to the ground every time he attacks. Also to round it out, Jujitsu. Many people train for hand to hand, but know next to nothing about ground combat.
You sell Darth Zannah short in every video she's mentioned in. She defeated Bane, continued on with the Rule of Two and was presumably only defeated by her own apprentice turned master, Darth Cognus / the Huntress who was fairly skilled for being untrained. I don't get it.
I think that he has a strong preference for Form V people in general. Probably because Bane was a Djem So master and he was killed by a soreasu master/sith sorceress. Could be still salty lol. Zannah is SICK despite her short comings.
He NEVER sells Zannah short, he just states the facts. Zannah beat Bane through sorcery, something she was really good at and which Jen has always acknowledged. As a lightsabre duellist she was overspecialised. She had a super-defence but so did Kenobi and he never let that limit him from being great at other things.
Wright805 Agree to disagree. He seems to be really extraordinarily biased against a Sith Lord who just barely came into her own and likely went on to do great things including maintaining and continuing the Rule of 2 that even great and powerful characters like Vader and Sidious failed at.
Darth Zannah and Bane squaring off is like a Sith warrior and Sith inquisitor facing off. Zannah's defence was solid but her offence is not constant and lacking. Bane capitalize on that and barrage her with powerful attacks. Zannah did won through force powers not martial skill. She did put up a good fight. If it was a martial battle, Zannah will be killed eventually.
if I were force sensitive, I would study form 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 to accommodate my skill form 5 and 6 are alright, but not to my style since I want to focus on speed and defense over strength and offense, I also would have duel lightsaber's that can attach to each other at there end's to create a double edge lightsaber and have some light armor with me, that's my way, and I would live by the grey Jedi code
Off topic I know, but for a while I have noticed you have at least mixed views on TCW and I feel maybe a review of episode arcs or your thoughts on episodes would be interesting to hear, especially from you given your extensive research into Star Wars lore.
Jensaarai, I'm not sure what source book it is in, but there is a photo of Luminara Unduli holding her lightsaber in a downward parry position, in a one handed reverse grip, hilt at head height with the blade pointing downwards guarding the side or back (I cannot remember which). I was wondering if this was a variation of one of the guard positions you mentioned in this video, or could this be a guard used in Form V, specifically shien? This was a great video, I'm looking forward to your remakes of the other forms :-)
what I see from the opening stance is that it has a lot in common with i.33 sword work, it's an "action guard" the stance it itself doesn't do shit, but it puts the blade in position to be moved anywhere you need it to be.
for me, this form is great, but I don't have the patient's to properly use it, this form is for those that have the patient's and the skill to predict and counter your opponent's attack's weather it's with a lightsaber or a blaster, if either is missing, one cannot master it form 6 is more my style, I can take bit's of everything I need to form a style completely of my own to help my strength's and decreases my weaknesses
While this is a GREAT overall in depth description of one of, if not, my favorite lightsaber form, I would like a deeper description on the ripostes of soresu that you alluded to. I've always heard that it was all defensive and any offense would be incorporated through a through a different form. I would defiantly watch a separated video going in depth on how soresu is not, necessarily, a completely defensive form.
i would imagine that dual wielding with soresu would mean being more vulnerable to djem so strikes as that is the weakness of dual wielding and whilst a soresu practitioner could definitely defend against djem so strikes whilst using one lightsaber the idea that a soresu practitioner could defend successfully whilst dual wielding is just plain overpowered
this is the form i was most looking forward to in these new videos and u did it a massive amount of justice!!! BRAVO!!! so with that said, i have a question, in Jensaarai's opion, wot is best form to suppliment Soresu with?
you could go straight Obi Wan and use Ataru lol. But you could instead use makashi with Soresu. So you're like a lancer,a huge shield while picking apart your enemy with your spear(your spear is Makashi, your shield is soresu)
I agree with Pierce Wise to me the best combination of two forms is Soresu and Makashi. Their strengths counter the other form's weaknesses perfectly. Also Makashi and Soresu both use tight controlled movements and foot work so you don't have the break one form in favor of the other you can use them both in conjunction.
I'm not 100% certain but didn't Zannah employ acrobatics as part of her overall combat style? While I'm not implying that she used Form IV, could she have used its acrobatics and evasive movements to boost her personal use of Form III? After all, in the Book of Sith, Bane makes a note of Zannah's personal variation of the Fast style (precision, speed, acrobatics and footwork). Plus he also makes it clear that a Sith should only learn two styles: Fast style and Strong style (he also adds Juyo on the following page). While it is never confirmed anywhere I believe Zannah would have studied Strong style and Juyo independently from Bane, especially if she is going to someday train an apprentice of her own. Even Dooku, who's sole focus was Makashi, was not ignorant of the other Forms and possessed enough knowledge to instruct others such as Grievous and his Dark Acolytes in them.
There is more in the jedi path you can make videos about such as the three jedi core pillars. or even how they use the force, you now control, sense and alter and compare that too the Sith and the way they do it,or something like that.
FATBRUCELOL APPLEBEE yes and no, the one in this video has only a single short blade extending out at a 45° angle. It is identical to the lightsaber used by a Jedi in the clone wars (star wars Republic comic series) called Roblio Darte. It is the Legends version of the crossguard lightsaber seen in the new Disney Canon.
11:56 +Jensaarai One seems like a bit of a lowball of Soresu/Shi-Cho Dual blade fencing. You just finished going over how subtle shifts in weight in and movement from Obi-Wan v Grevious can deflect 18 strikes per second, from a true Master like Kenobi. If you're going to boil it down to "whoopdie fucking doo," at least acknowledge your intellectual inconsistency, and explain how covering extra flanks in a moving meditation with Soresu, has proven to be advantageous, IE the Maul, Savage vs Kenobi fight on Florum. Not only did Maul fight Kenobi with Master level Juyo and Niman, which is actually a horrible matchup for Soresu to ford, but as well as a sith trained beserker who's raw attacks can overload the defenses of regular knights. Kenobi not only outlasted them by dual weilding, but it gave him the time to exploit targets of opportunity such as Savage's locked knee. Imagine if this was Episode 3 Kenobi fighting them, they wouldn't be able to subvert any of his flanks and none of their strikes would be fast enough, in theory.
Yes it can. In the novel Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, Bane uses his curved hilt lightsaber to deflect raindrops during a downpour by using his skill in Form III. Not one drop of rain touched him during this exercise. Bear in mind Darth Bane had been using this lightsaber for 20 years, so he likely spent quite sometime adapting how he handled it to accommodate the move sets of Form III
It never made sense when its said that soresu has no offense. Unless a practitioner used the offense from Other forms, all a soresu user could do was stand there. It makes sense that it would have offense in there somewhere.
I would agree with you it does have offensive moves it's just that Soresu focuses on defense so much more than offense. I'd argue Soresu has offense moves like during a bladebind you could push your opponent's blade aside with very short defensive sweeps close to your body as well as using that same maneuver to rip your opponent's weapon out of their grasp in a disarming move.
@@ironinquisitor3656 makes sense. The offense would probably be more like countering after defending without leaving yourself exposed. Perhaps not like it is with Djem So, with the power attacks and such. Perhaps it is like we see how we see Obiwan fight the magna guards on the bridge of the invisible hand while rescuing palps.
Something odd just occurred to me. The odd nature of SW lore puts fans in much the same paradoxical situation as the Jedi themselves. Example: trying to rationalize how a purely defensive form's idle stances being all offensive makes sense, just as how the Jedi in universe have to square the circle of thinking the will of the force is peace through tranquility. I just watched the Philosophy of Kreia video again, if you're wondering where this comes from.
Hey jensaarai I really appreciate these in depth videos on the lightsaber forms and their history and use. With that said I have a rather off topic question in the context of this video. I recall an episode of The Council Forcecast where the topic was suggestions on the versus series. As a term for any suggestion towards yourself you would not do one with Revan and I was just wondering why this was. I personally am not the biggest fan of Revan myself but I was just wondering your reason for this. Anyways keep up the good videos and thanks for reading my comment.
And another thing, if we were going to pull Reven into the future through cryo or what even they could at least of had him do something constructive. Seriously how about a extended universe book in the legacy era where one of those sith cults/offshoots that keep popping up tries to find the "tomb" of Darth Reven and reawaken him to gain the power to destroy the Jedi and blah blah standard star wars Sith plot blah. the heroes try to stop them fail only for it to turn out that a lot of Revan's story was lost to time and they guy the woke is a Jedi and master strategist who is can pretty much turn their whole war against them. That stupid cheesy bit of exposition would be a hundred times better than what we got. rant over
+Jensaarai1 what tor did was wrong. Revan was no true Sith like Malak, he was a grey Jedi, a Jedi who could use both light and dark and still serve the order and the Republic willingly. that's what Revan was as a force user.
Something I need to get off my chest about Kreia. I don’t think we should be giving her too much credit when it comes to dueling, considering it was never her primary focus. At best, she’s an expert who knows every form on an academic level and could effectively teach anyone any of the forms to a certain degree. IMO, she knows she isn’t the greatest duelist, she relies heavily on the force to win the bout or shock and awe tactics to misdirect foes into thinking she’s better than she is. She knows each form, but is a master of none of them
I would argue that Anakin skywalker both in Revenge of the sith and during his time as Darth Vader was an expert practicioner of form 3 because technically, form 5 was created from form 3 and 4
format 5 was created as answer to to the almost complete lack of offense of form 3. I've read the Jedi Path as well and no other derivative form was mentioned. Form 5's dealing aspect is based on power strikes, completely the opposite of form 2.
The book says Form 5 derived from Form 3, not 2. Here I'll write out the exact line: "The form came into existence through the efforts of Jedi Masters who believe that Form III, Soresu, did not allow sufficient opportunities for counterattack." No mention of Form 2. That said I do agree with Darmeda 45. People overlook Anakin's defensive capabilities. That is _half_ of Djem So after all.
I'm torn about this Form because not only is it a form I would recommend to almost anyone who wanted to learn light saber combat in any capacity, but I'm not sure if I woulds specialize in it because to both does and doesn't fit my personal nature in regards to combat and conflict. I am normally an very passive person who likes to avoid combat, but once it becomes unavoidable by circumstance or by principle I do a complete 180 and become aggressive and confrontation. I go on the attack and in situations where I'm really stressed or angry get borderline berserk. Potentially great in a pinch but not the right mentality for a Soresu practitioner. Then again when I have spared I have found that when forced into a corner my defense works its best when I do drop into an Obiwan Kennobi "Let go of your thoughts and move with the flow" state of mind. I'm not sure if this is a form I would or should specialize in if I were to learn light saber combat. anyone got any thoughts on this.
As a passive guy also, I find it hard to pin down my favourite Forms (most of the time it's Forms V and VI). However, like you Form III fits me personally and philosophically. When I briefly studied karate a few years ago, in sparring my immediate response was to block or defend myself (I hardly ever made counters until I felt ready to). I see Form IV as the ideal partner to Form III, they have an almost yin/yang relationship. Based on your description I would say you're either a Form IV or Form VII attacker, but at your very core you are definitely Form III. Either attacking Form would make a great companion to the defensive Form. I hope this helps in some way
From the sound of it, Form V might be more up your alley. But I like Soresu if only for one thing, it lets you survive. If you're in over your head, it's a form that you can use to survive and regroup, a problem I have with Ataru and Juyo is their commitment to offense. To be fair, they work. But if you're ever in qui-gons position where you can't bring your skill to bear on an opponent, you have nothing else. In instances where those form practitioners couldn't break through an opponents defense, Kota vs Galen comes to mind, they have to change tact or be stuck in a situation they can't win in.
Nathan Fite I agree with your assessment on forms IV and VII. this is why I think I would fall more towards form V because its more about taking initiative than it is about offense. despite being the "Brute Force" style what its really all about is gaining control of a fight applying a from II mentality with a more aggressive fighting style.
Darth Marder I have also taken karate and have noticed that I favor defense if I'm not confident about my ability to attack. What I have noticed is that I have a lot more success when I stop passively responding and try to find a way to attack. My issue was that I was younger student and thus usually the small guy so I had an uphill battle. The problem with a passive response is that you often surrender control of the situation.
I've taken Karate as well. I agree with you that a passive response can easily allow for a lost of control for most people. However masters could potentially turn passivity into action. I.E drawing out a fight until the opponent collapses from exhaustion or drawing a fight to a more favorable location. I favor Maui Thai in my hand to hand combat. It works for me since it allows me to go into a defensive stance that I favor until my opponent slips up. But I do incorporate JuJitsu and other styles to be more rounded. So I'd go for Forms I-III while considering the Shien branch of form V if I were a Jedi. I like the versatility.
A perfect combo in my opinion, use Soresu to defend while conserving your energy as well as studying your opponent, then when they begin to tire hammer away at them with some Djem So cleaves.
isn't valenthyne farfalla a soresu user too? I mean he is most likely a makashi user but I mean makashi wouldn't help him survive as long as he did against bane
Form 3 Masters are said to be invincible with that said notable losses to form 3 Darth Bane, General Grievous, Darth Maul, Darth Vader pre-suit, in the right hands form 3 truly is invincible.
i like forms 1, 3, 4, 5 specifically shien, 6 niman and jar'kai, and 7 specifically vaapad. honorable mention i think juyo is interesting but it is not my most favorite.
Mine is Djem so, Soresu, Ataru, Niman, and Jar kai Honorable mention goes to Vaapad, I consider it to be the more complete version of form 7 in comparison to Juyo, but Jedi have fallen to the dark side because of their lack of understanding of how to properly use the form
I'm just wondering does this Stance clash somewhat with a mindset a Sith would have? I wonder what kind of a fighter a form 3 using Sith would be. I guess they could use some offensive ranged force powers?
@Jango The Ripper I know about Zannah but not sure how proficient she exactly was with Form 3. She does not strike me as that much of a lightsaber duelist. I think for a sorceress the usage of a double bladed weapon seems more of a hindrance than a boon. Overall I think she is a lackluster character, but she is admittedly a good example of a Sith Soresu user. In my own headcanon, most Sith would be too impatient for Form 3, and it unfortunately gives it that "good guys use it" characteristic. The two circumventions for a dark sider using it as a main weapon would be to augment their combat with insidious force abilities that sap vitality of the foe. And an older Sith master with a more cold, seething kind of disposition.
Ah, the "the better you get, the more unfair you become" form. I know that no piece of Star Wars media has ever really captured the stonewall approach of Soresu accurately, but whenever you or another versus RUclipsr talks about it, it's always in regards to Obi-Wan and somewhere the words "damn near unkillable" will appear. I prefer more dynamic lightsaber combat myself.
Is it just me or is combining Form 5 and Form 3 kinda pointless? Because for example Djem So focuses on defending and then counter attacking, same for Shien where as Soresu is just the defending.
11:56 Isn't that the point? With that kind of defense, you're basically invincible and all you have to do is wait and counter. With one blade, you're hard to hit, but still killable. With extra blades, you're untouchable and in fact have a better offense now.
Here's the problem. Two blades doesn't equal better. You lose the ability to block a strong attack since you can't align yourself with the blade for the most effective block, you're relying on parries which won't last once your opponent figures out what you're doing. Soresu also has next to no offense. Its a failing of the form, even if we assume the offense is the counters, it doesn't have a way to take control of the fight without defense or it being a circumstance of the fight rather than the skill of the user. With two blades, you're having to divert attention from honing your craft to learning how to use the two blades in tandem with little concern for tangling or lapses which isn't an easy task. What two blades offers is option, not superiority. With two blades I can block with one blade while stabbing my opponent, I can attack from multiple directions: a high downward attack and a low horizontal slash and more. Thats where Soresu doesn't take advantage of the dual blades. It's a bunch of stances with little to no movement to maximize defensive coverage. Dual blades are proactive by nature while Soresu is reactive.
And here's my problem: In the video Jensaarai1 just complains that it makes your defense better. Nothing about the actual flaws of form you point out, just "Your good defense is now better, whoopdy-f***ing-do." I appreciate your explanation though, Nathan.
You're welcome. I must point out though that at the time of the videos posting, Jensarri1 was under a copyright strike and was limited to 15 min videos. Given the amount information he wanted to put in, something would have to be on the chopping block.
Darth zhannah form 3 mastery edge in form 3 is speed and force perception while kenobi is force atunement and force perception. It really begs a question on how fast bane and zhannah really are,dooku is faster then general greivous. Not even in her prime she delt with 3 jedi masters on battle meditation when she fought bane in doe she noted bane was much faster than before. So where does exar kun rank in speed?
“Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form 3 practitioner”
_shows an octogenarian and a 60-year old attempting to smack each other with sticks_
An even better demonstration would be his last duel with Maul.
Sigh...this argument again.
@@callmev3531one of my favourites.
The high ground. The real soresu
Pshhh don't tell them!
The footballing equivalent of "parking the bus" in front of goal. lol gotta love these defensive formations! Definitely my favorite form.
I feel like it's more like Catenaccio, the Italian defensive style of playing.
Kenobi's pure mastery of Soresu is possibly why he's one of my favorite Jedi
The philosophy of Soresu (and other lightsaber forms) can be applied in real-life sport sparring for various martial arts. Using blocks and dodges to tire an aggressive opponent, wait for them to make a mistake, then unleash a set of counterattacks to score points, rinse and repeat.
Just don’t get too over reliant on it though. Because opponents who are familiar with the form and the tactics behind it can turn it against you.
My instructors would disagree. Most martial arts would prefer you to take the leading a fight, especially for self-defense. If you can take the lead you can pressure the attacker to back off, dissuade them , or have the abillity to control the rest of the fight.
@@kieranlock3070why attack when you can just tire out enemies? Like soresu😂😂
@danlomanalo4161 because you have to to be 100% effective with every parry and block, where as they only have to score one hit against you, essentially you would tire out more quickly than them pretty much everytime.
@@kieranlock3070 the point of soresu is minimal movement for maximum defense (basically shi-cho's parry/blocking but faster)
Soresu is also recommended to be mixed with other forms, that reposte very useful in transition to form v or form I. Many of form i's basic movements flow right into and right out of soresu.
So Basically Form 3 of lightsaber combat at it's mastery level is the ultimate expression of the Rope-a-dope!? I can dig it :D
Excellent work, my friend, as always. There are a few points that I wish to point out, of course:
1. Another reason for Obi-Wan's final victory over Grievous was the General's most recent injuries, thus reducing the usual effectiveness of his bladework; until that time, Obi-Wan had never been able to take a hand or two from Grievous.
2. Darth Bane made Zannah focus solely on Soresu because she lacked any physical requirements for the more aggressive forms of lightsaber combat. However, after the events of _Dynasty of Evil,_ I would wager that Zannah had adopted other forms into her style while training Darth Cognus.
DarthWill3 the injury was made uncanon what’s canon is count doku saying that obi wan is able to beat him along with anakin yoda mace and 1 or 2 other noobs
If you take a closer look at Grievous in _ROTS,_ during the Battle of Coruscant and before the final duel, you can see that the plates covering his internal organ sac is badly damaged. The green is shown through the cracks.
the injury being made uncanon is irrelevant. if it happened in legends, it happened.
as for Kenobi never being able to 'take a hand or two from Grievous' i direct you to the episode Grievous Intrigue, where Kenobi bests Grievous and several magnaguards in combat and drives Grievous to retreat.
In Legends, Obi-Wan’s battle with Grievous was his first ever.
@@baoanhnguyen9186How I wish that were true. And how I wish Dooku and Anakin and Obi-Wan would not meet between their first duel on Geonosis and their last aboard Invisible Hand.
"12 strikes per second"? I thought Grievous's maximum attack speed was 18 strikes per second? Still, there's no question whatsoever that Obi-Wan Kenobi is the poster boy for Soresu Lightsaber combat.
+Jensaarai1 what is impressive is that obi wan's defense weren't over loaded until Griveous got to that point in the fight. That's proof that obi wan had earned his reputation as master of the third form during the clone wars.
you mean The master
+Jensaarai1 1:32 -2:34 that right there is nothing short of art. I felt like it was a goal to expire to achieve that state of mind.
Jeremy Hicks I think you mean "ASPIRE"...........
josh tagge okay let's go with that
When old Obiwan was fighting Vader on the death star, his old age combined with relatively weak force sensitivity especially relative to Vader, he was forced to rely on Shii Cho techniques he learnt as a youngling. He had to go back to the very basics as even Soresu was too demanding on his aged body.
Source?
@@TheFilthyFinch In the legends book series 'Jedi Apprentice', Obi wan as a youngling failed his padawan trials after begging multiple masters, including qui gon to take him on as a padawan. Windu was also very skeptical of him just as he was Anakin and wanted him not to progress in his training, but Yoda saw his potential and petitioned multiple masters to take him on. He was on the verge of being kicked out of the jedi order and sent to work in public service as a farm hand. When qui gon was assigned a mission to the planet that Obi wan was to work as a farmer, they worked together to complete the mission and Qui gon was impressed with his dedication and passion to being a Jedi and reluctantly took him on.
In the recent series we see Obi wan struggling VERY hard against Vader, who was nowhere near his full human strength.
In a new hope, we see him struggling even more, barely able to keep up the fight. Their 3rd duel is a pale shadow compared to both of their peak power in Mustafar. Vader was extremely cautious in his attacks as he remembered the last 2 times he was overconfident which is why his fighting style looked stripped bare.
Soresu and Makashi are both forms that even non-force sensitives could learn to decent competency given decades of training. They don't rely on force augmented power or acrobatics but deep knowledge and muscle memory of blocking slow travelling blaster bolts or thousands of hours of sparring with a droid, progressively increasing its capability as your own skill increases. It fits Obi wan's skillset perfectly- as someone with a relatively low midicholorian count even compared to a stock standard Knight but who works 10 times harder than anyone else in the Order, he has worked his way up out of pure dedication to the Jedi path to being one of the top combatants in the clone wars.
The following is an excerpt from the novel Labyrinth of Evil, written by James Luceno, and shows that Form III is more than capable with blaster bolt redirection associated with Form V:
"Obi-Wan leapt to one side, raising his blade to deal with two bolts that got past Anakin. The first he returned toward its source; the second, he parried at a deliberately downward angle. Striking the grotto's hard-packed floor, the deflected bolt ricocheted to one wall, then to the ceiling, to the other wall, and back to the floor, from which it caromed squarely into the control panel that operated the tunnel door.
Showering sparks, the device shorted out, and a slab of thick alloy dropped from its pocket in the wall, sealing the tunnel with a loud thud!
Switching off his lightsaber, Anakin cast a complimentary glance over his shoulder.
"Nicely done, Master."
"The beauty of Form Three," Obi-Wan said with theatrical nonchalance. "You should try it sometime."
"You've always been better at evasion than I have," Anakin said. "I prefer more straightforward tactics."
Obi-Wan rolled his eyes. "Master of understatement.""
So glad that you are once again regularly making new videos, Jensaarai1! Thank you!
Heck yes!
Oh hell yeah!
My favourite form. Both philosophically and practically.
This is Floyd Mayweather jr.'s lightsaber style
tichneck and makashi he cut into fighters defences
And Mohammed Ali rope a dope
Jedi Consular 💚
🙏😌
My favourite forms:
Form I Shii cho
Form III Soresu
Form V Shien/Djem so
Form VI Niman
This is one style I can really get behind. Solid defense combined with tight, efficient movements to limit fatigue is something I can do. However, I do not believe I would have an answer for Soresu’s lack of dedicated offense. Like with Ataru, good, but not great.
this form is really just a tire out you enemies then strike pretty clever if you think about it
So this AND a video from Preston about Dorne, you sir have once again made my day!
Excellent overview, Jensaarai1. While I did state that I'd prefer Makashi, upon further reflection and deep contemplation, I do see myself as someone who would follow Soresu. I do like having a strong defense and am not the type to initiate combat, rather the type who responds and tries to counter attack/defend. I also realize this because maybe it is due to my introverted aspect, but I tend to internalize a lot to which Soresu does a lot.
With that said, in your view, do those who partake in Soresu tend to be those who like to think two steps ahead and or have a baseline plan?
In terms of personality I also match Form III (I am at heart a pacifist). I often thought I would prefer either Djem So, Niman or a less acrobatic Ataru, but when I really think about it I am mostly suited to Form III and Form VI (pacifism and adaptability).
If you tend to counterattack with a strong offense and insane bladework, then you’d be a form 5 master. “Strong style” as the Sith called it. Like Anakin Skywalker by ROTS. If this shit was real, I’d deff take on form 5, and fall back on form 1 as a back up if only for the movement and fluidity combined with the strength and bladework of form 5.
lmao, is that why I prefer djem so, the protagonist's form?
Can't wait to see form 6! By far the most underestimated form from what I see on the interwebs. 3 and 6 are my favs personally :D Also, GREAT job man. Very informative.
This video is just one of many and many examples why I love Star Wars to death.
Excellent video as always, Jensaarai. Thank you for the effort.
Another great video for the new playlist of lightsaber forms. I also think that you or maybe one of your Council compatriots should make a full video about the reverse grip detailing it's perceived strengths and weaknesses and how the different forms utilize it. There are few force users who seem to exclusively or at least mostly exclusively use it but we've seen tons of different people use it here or there. I initially thought it was strictly a form V thing but having seen it in several other forms now I would love a more in-depth analysis of it.
All of these videos have helped so much with immersion in games I GM for tabletop. Thank you so much for your series!
My favourite form. To be honest my cousin and I have our own duels and I use this form almost extensively. Sometimes also combining some of form 2 along with it, whereas my cousin uses form 5
I think the particular example of Obi and hes more agressive moments is due to the fact that he was also a specialist of form 4.
I think Obi-Wan successfully melded Soresu and Ataru into a singular style, being able to fluidly switch between the defensive applications of the former into the aggressive sequences of the latter seamlessly.
Plus in the ROTS novel he employs an acrobatic Ataru movement, one that Dooku observed and executed an attack that should have cut Obi-Wan up, but he employed Soresu to cover himself and I believe it’s that moment that Dooku realises Kenobi’s true style isn’t Ataru, but rather Soresu.
Is it me or does soresu have some Tai’chi elements? “You are the calm in the storm while your opponents rage about.” Mediation and the Jian sword movements (circle of shelter) are big hints.
Wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Tai Chi and Aikido both come to mind with Form III
As usual informative, entertaining and we'll put together.
I’ve been a full sureso user for the past 2 years after leaving shi-cho
I realize that it is hard to find opportunities to strike later in the fight, as they adapt to my form and use an offensive form. I think I should use a small sliver of Ataru. What do your think?
Soresu and Ataru are excellent styles if used properly. May I recommend some Dejm So/Shien as well? The problem with Soresu and Ataru is that they are complete opposites in terms of how they move. Soresu is a static style characterized by shifting from one block to the next, while Ataru is bouncy, energetic, and is noted to have complicated blade work. The couple seconds to shift your stance and your guard is extremely telling to anyone who is proficient. So form V should help you with the initial counterattack while you transition to Ataru while also providing more options both defensively and offensively.
may i recommend makashi, as makashi also relies on very efficient movements to maximum benefit as soresu does. you can use soresu until you notice a mistake in your opponent's attack, then switch to makashi sequences to try to exploit your opponent and throw him off. I would imagine practising makashi would be extremely similar to how you practise soresu
The Aikido of lightsaber form..
It's hilarious to me that Luminara Unduli once said: 'a master of Form 3 is truly invincible', yet as a true master of the form, she got outdueled by Ventress in TCW! Also, let's not forget about Jedi High Council member Coleman Trebor, well considered as a true master of Form '3' yet, got gunned down by Jango Fett in '3' shots!
well, coleman is a joke, and tcw's writers had no idea what they were doing
Inconsistencies in writing are the cause of that, just like the multiple stance given for the form.
I always found the "A master of Form 3 is truly invincible" phrase a smug and arrogant statement.
Well, in the end, the *true* master of Form III was never defeated at all until in the end he chose so
10Tabris01 Kenobi was defeated multiple times before, in TCW. By Maul, Dooku, Cad Bane... Even forced to retreat by GG once. Plus, he never was just the true master of Form 3, he mastered Form 1, 4, 5 and 6 as well. He was a master of multiple forms and used all of them in combat. Kenobi was far from an one trick pony like those "A master of Form 3 is truly invincible" masters, who only mastered Form 3 along and thought they are unbreakable!
Amazing Job with the new form videos. So much more detail.
One of my favorite form something I would take up if I were a Jedi I would want to achieve a level like Obi Wan.
Well I personally find form 3's defensive abilities admirable, I have to echo the criticisms of the style. A lack of Offensive options is not so much a weakness as an intentional limitation, & that lack of options leaves the user vulnerable to the unexpected & unorthodox.
I have a few ideas for the versus series:
1. Galen Marek vs Obi Wan Kenobi
2. Darth Malgus vs Anakin Skywalker
3. Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Bane
4. Revan vs Darth Vader.
5.*Maul and Dooku and Vader vs Sidious
6. Satele Shan vs Starkiller (TFS2)
What do you think?
1. Obi-Wan, but not easily.
2. Close, but most likely Skywalker by the skin of his teeth.
3. Bane. No question.
4. He said he's never using Revan, though this would be a good fight.
5. With their combined powers, Sidious would be destroyed, though Maul may be killed in the fight.
6. Most likely Shan.
Stephen Pennino
1. Well, I think it could go either way, with Kenobi having an experience/skill edge on Galen and Galen being physically on par and being slightly more powerful than Kenobi.
2. Why does Bane win no question? Anakin is more experienced, was said by Dooku to be the best Djem So user he'd ever seen (keep in mind he was one the best lightsaber instructors in the Jedi order) and easily one of the best duelists of his era, which says a lot considering how his era was filled with exceptional duelists. I believe that it was stated, if my memory serves me right, by the stunt director of ROTS that Anakin was on the same level as Yoda and Sidious when it came to dueling. His raw power with the force could contend with Bane's. Even Obi Wan said that Anakin had surpassed him. I think that Bane has a small edge against Anakin, but it would be an interesting battle.
3. Pity, though I'm confident that Vader would win.
4. I'm talking about Legends Sidious, though I still think that they would win through an epic battle and I more confident that Vader will die at the end by way of Sidious shorting out his respirator and Vader holds out until the end of the battle . Canon would be against Maul and Dooku, still would be an awesome fight.
5. I don't know, Satele may be a little more skilled than Starkiller, but I believe that Satrkiller is slightly more powerful than Satele and when it comes to physical ability, Starkiller may or may not be stronger than Satele while being just as skilled acrobatically.
Kenobi, Malgus, Bane, Revan, Vader+Sidious is overkill. Maul and Dooku are not in Vader's tier, let alone Sidious. Shan ftw.
Anyone who isn't Anakin/Vader, Obi Wan vs Bane, Sidious, and whoever else listed
I hope you will do rest of the forms, looking forward to it
Well done. i impressed with obi wan ability to block that many strikes per second. Very funny bit about using dual blades or doubladed lightsabers in form 3.
Which Form would be more sadistic in the hands of a Sith: Makashi or Soresu? Form II uses light cuts and linear stabs but Form III keeps you and your enemies alive longer (if only to endure more unnecessary pain).
Simply love Soresu! But my beloved Obi wasn't that much at ease with little Ani at Mustafar...Haha. Great video!
A form which counters but never on the offensive. it's only weakness is delaying the inevitable when the opponent is not falling into a state of aggression and frustration. This form keeps you from tiring out easily as its moves is simple and minimal. Mix it up with other forms you get yourself a devastating unique style. All the forms can blend with this form except Form VII, Juyo/Vapaad is to unleash a furry/offence letting the flow of battle get to you that breaks the mentality of Soresu
Well come to think of it, one can blend Juyo with Soresu but it's really difficult only masters can do that. Bane, malgus, vader can do that.
galen marek uses soresu and juyo. the original one not the dual wielding clone who may not be a clone cuz vader is super shifty. for merging juyo and soresu, basically do what darth zannah did, master the technical aspect of it but not it's core philosophy so you get the defence and can also then throw in juyo.
Obi Wan blended Ataru with Soresu. Not to the extent of Vader's blended form, but Obi Wan's training of Ataru with Quick Gon influenced his technique when applicable. In other words Obi Wan is 95% Soresu 5% Ataru to add power to his counters.
Gear N Beer Obi Wan also incorporates elements of Shii-Cho, Shien and Niman in his technique
If you look at the beginning fight of Vader and Obi-Wan in episode 3.Vader lept bringing his saber into fallen avalanche. Obi-Wan braced himself becoming a immovable object
good vid as always, your voice sounded cleaner and deeper in this one compared to others. new mic?
I know you don't like Rebels, but a good example of an amateur level demonstration of Soresu in my opinion would be during the parts Kanan Jarrus used it during his first duel with The Grand Inquisitor.
2:27, I wouldn’t say that it’s anything to scoff at. The real issue is only letting this defense take away from the practitioners offense like with Zainah.
Was Yoda using Form III against Dooku in the AOTC novelisation? It sounded like he was using the Circle of Shelter technique before launching into his typical Ataru acrobatic assault.
Soresu is my jam. Love the counter attacking as a means of offense.
Back when I practiced martial arts, my natural style was akin to Soresu. I remember stating to my various teachers that I always felt open when I attacked, and this was proven because I'd get hit almost every time. However, if I defended and let my opponent tire themselves out, I found that I was more inclined towards counter-strikes.
Perhaps my disenchantment with martial arts is due to the fact that I tried to play their game instead of developing my own natural inclinations.
Martial Arts is a very personal thing in regards to development. My brother and I both studied the same styles for the same amount of time and there is a noticeable difference in skill. He is by far the better hand to hand fighter between the two of us, not because of a lack of skill on my end. The reason is his attack mentality. He's aggressive and dominates the fight whereas I'm more reactive in my tactics. Where things change is in grappling and weapons. For some strange reason I'm impossible to lock down in a pin and I spent more time practicing with weapons as a way to further improve my footwork. If you ever decide to pick it up, may I recommend Aikido? Its the most Soresu like martial art I've ever seen. It has next to no attacks in it and is instead a passive style that wins when the attacker gets tired of being thrown to the ground every time he attacks. Also to round it out, Jujitsu. Many people train for hand to hand, but know next to nothing about ground combat.
This seems to fit me the most but i need to find a way to work in a better offensive side maybe add some shein or shii cho attacks
If I was a Jedi i would want Jensaarai to train me
If Luminara uses it, Its instantly my favourite.
I fucking knew obi-wan wasnt a form 3 specialist on Phantom Menace cause how aggressive he attacked. Told everyone that and nobody believed me.
You sell Darth Zannah short in every video she's mentioned in. She defeated Bane, continued on with the Rule of Two and was presumably only defeated by her own apprentice turned master, Darth Cognus / the Huntress who was fairly skilled for being untrained. I don't get it.
Zannah had a lot of strong qualities. Her physicality was not one of them.
I think that he has a strong preference for Form V people in general. Probably because Bane was a Djem So master and he was killed by a soreasu master/sith sorceress. Could be still salty lol. Zannah is SICK despite her short comings.
He NEVER sells Zannah short, he just states the facts. Zannah beat Bane through sorcery, something she was really good at and which Jen has always acknowledged. As a lightsabre duellist she was overspecialised. She had a super-defence but so did Kenobi and he never let that limit him from being great at other things.
Wright805 Agree to disagree. He seems to be really extraordinarily biased against a Sith Lord who just barely came into her own and likely went on to do great things including maintaining and continuing the Rule of 2 that even great and powerful characters like Vader and Sidious failed at.
Darth Zannah and Bane squaring off is like a Sith warrior and Sith inquisitor facing off. Zannah's defence was solid but her offence is not constant and lacking. Bane capitalize on that and barrage her with powerful attacks. Zannah did won through force powers not martial skill. She did put up a good fight. If it was a martial battle, Zannah will be killed eventually.
if I were force sensitive, I would study form 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 to accommodate my skill
form 5 and 6 are alright, but not to my style since I want to focus on speed and defense over strength and offense, I also would have duel lightsaber's that can attach to each other at there end's to create a double edge lightsaber and have some light armor with me,
that's my way, and I would live by the grey Jedi code
10:50 wait, why is that one of the worst episodes?
Off topic I know, but for a while I have noticed you have at least mixed views on TCW and I feel maybe a review of episode arcs or your thoughts on episodes would be interesting to hear, especially from you given your extensive research into Star Wars lore.
“A strongest defense is a swift and decisive offense”- Obi Wan Kenobi
Jensaarai, I'm not sure what source book it is in, but there is a photo of Luminara Unduli holding her lightsaber in a downward parry position, in a one handed reverse grip, hilt at head height with the blade pointing downwards guarding the side or back (I cannot remember which). I was wondering if this was a variation of one of the guard positions you mentioned in this video, or could this be a guard used in Form V, specifically shien?
This was a great video, I'm looking forward to your remakes of the other forms :-)
what I see from the opening stance is that it has a lot in common with i.33 sword work, it's an "action guard" the stance it itself doesn't do shit, but it puts the blade in position to be moved anywhere you need it to be.
for me, this form is great, but I don't have the patient's to properly use it, this form is for those that have the patient's and the skill to predict and counter your opponent's attack's weather it's with a lightsaber or a blaster, if either is missing, one cannot master it
form 6 is more my style, I can take bit's of everything I need to form a style completely of my own to help my strength's and decreases my weaknesses
What's your favorite of the 7 forms of lightsaber combat? Which do you think is best?
While this is a GREAT overall in depth description of one of, if not, my favorite lightsaber form, I would like a deeper description on the ripostes of soresu that you alluded to. I've always heard that it was all defensive and any offense would be incorporated through a through a different form. I would defiantly watch a separated video going in depth on how soresu is not, necessarily, a completely defensive form.
can't wait for the next one!!!
As soon as I get my Saberforge Lightsaber, I'll concentrate on Soresu!
i would imagine that dual wielding with soresu would mean being more vulnerable to djem so strikes as that is the weakness of dual wielding and whilst a soresu practitioner could definitely defend against djem so strikes whilst using one lightsaber the idea that a soresu practitioner could defend successfully whilst dual wielding is just plain overpowered
this is the form i was most looking forward to in these new videos and u did it a massive amount of justice!!! BRAVO!!! so with that said, i have a question, in Jensaarai's opion, wot is best form to suppliment Soresu with?
you could go straight Obi Wan and use Ataru lol. But you could instead use makashi with Soresu. So you're like a lancer,a huge shield while picking apart your enemy with your spear(your spear is Makashi, your shield is soresu)
I agree with Pierce Wise to me the best combination of two forms is Soresu and Makashi. Their strengths counter the other form's weaknesses perfectly. Also Makashi and Soresu both use tight controlled movements and foot work so you don't have the break one form in favor of the other you can use them both in conjunction.
I'm not 100% certain but didn't Zannah employ acrobatics as part of her overall combat style? While I'm not implying that she used Form IV, could she have used its acrobatics and evasive movements to boost her personal use of Form III? After all, in the Book of Sith, Bane makes a note of Zannah's personal variation of the Fast style (precision, speed, acrobatics and footwork). Plus he also makes it clear that a Sith should only learn two styles: Fast style and Strong style (he also adds Juyo on the following page). While it is never confirmed anywhere I believe Zannah would have studied Strong style and Juyo independently from Bane, especially if she is going to someday train an apprentice of her own. Even Dooku, who's sole focus was Makashi, was not ignorant of the other Forms and possessed enough knowledge to instruct others such as Grievous and his Dark Acolytes in them.
There is more in the jedi path you can make videos about such as the three jedi core pillars. or even how they use the force, you now control, sense and alter and compare that too the Sith and the way they do it,or something like that.
my 3 favourite forms are Makashi Soresu and Niman
i dont know anh duellust who breached Kenobis guard in his prime in a blade to blade confrontation
6:25 is this a Cross Guard saber this jedi is holding looks like one that Ezra picked up during Twilight of The Apprentince
FATBRUCELOL APPLEBEE yes and no, the one in this video has only a single short blade extending out at a 45° angle. It is identical to the lightsaber used by a Jedi in the clone wars (star wars Republic comic series) called Roblio Darte. It is the Legends version of the crossguard lightsaber seen in the new Disney Canon.
11:56 +Jensaarai One seems like a bit of a lowball of Soresu/Shi-Cho Dual blade fencing. You just finished going over how subtle shifts in weight in and movement from Obi-Wan v Grevious can deflect 18 strikes per second, from a true Master like Kenobi.
If you're going to boil it down to "whoopdie fucking doo," at least acknowledge your intellectual inconsistency, and explain how covering extra flanks in a moving meditation with Soresu, has proven to be advantageous, IE the Maul, Savage vs Kenobi fight on Florum. Not only did Maul fight Kenobi with Master level Juyo and Niman, which is actually a horrible matchup for Soresu to ford, but as well as a sith trained beserker who's raw attacks can overload the defenses of regular knights. Kenobi not only outlasted them by dual weilding, but it gave him the time to exploit targets of opportunity such as Savage's locked knee.
Imagine if this was Episode 3 Kenobi fighting them, they wouldn't be able to subvert any of his flanks and none of their strikes would be fast enough, in theory.
Would soresu with a curved blade work?
Yes it can. In the novel Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, Bane uses his curved hilt lightsaber to deflect raindrops during a downpour by using his skill in Form III. Not one drop of rain touched him during this exercise. Bear in mind Darth Bane had been using this lightsaber for 20 years, so he likely spent quite sometime adapting how he handled it to accommodate the move sets of Form III
Form 3 is the starter kit for Form 6.
It never made sense when its said that soresu has no offense. Unless a practitioner used the offense from Other forms, all a soresu user could do was stand there. It makes sense that it would have offense in there somewhere.
I would agree with you it does have offensive moves it's just that Soresu focuses on defense so much more than offense. I'd argue Soresu has offense moves like during a bladebind you could push your opponent's blade aside with very short defensive sweeps close to your body as well as using that same maneuver to rip your opponent's weapon out of their grasp in a disarming move.
@@ironinquisitor3656 makes sense. The offense would probably be more like countering after defending without leaving yourself exposed. Perhaps not like it is with Djem So, with the power attacks and such.
Perhaps it is like we see how we see Obiwan fight the magna guards on the bridge of the invisible hand while rescuing palps.
Something odd just occurred to me. The odd nature of SW lore puts fans in much the same paradoxical situation as the Jedi themselves. Example: trying to rationalize how a purely defensive form's idle stances being all offensive makes sense, just as how the Jedi in universe have to square the circle of thinking the will of the force is peace through tranquility.
I just watched the Philosophy of Kreia video again, if you're wondering where this comes from.
Mostly A Good Defensive Form For The Most Part Although Takes Lots Of Posture And Twisting, to turn out for the best
Hey jensaarai I really appreciate these in depth videos on the lightsaber forms and their history and use. With that said I have a rather off topic question in the context of this video. I recall an episode of The Council Forcecast where the topic was suggestions on the versus series. As a term for any suggestion towards yourself you would not do one with Revan and I was just wondering why this was. I personally am not the biggest fan of Revan myself but I was just wondering your reason for this. Anyways keep up the good videos and thanks for reading my comment.
Agreed they failed to capture his character, especially in the DLC. What the DLC did with him was stupid
And another thing, if we were going to pull Reven into the future through cryo or what even they could at least of had him do something constructive. Seriously how about a extended universe book in the legacy era where one of those sith cults/offshoots that keep popping up tries to find the "tomb" of Darth Reven and reawaken him to gain the power to destroy the Jedi and blah blah standard star wars Sith plot blah. the heroes try to stop them fail only for it to turn out that a lot of Revan's story was lost to time and they guy the woke is a Jedi and master strategist who is can pretty much turn their whole war against them.
That stupid cheesy bit of exposition would be a hundred times better than what we got. rant over
+Jensaarai1 what tor did was wrong. Revan was no true Sith like Malak, he was a grey Jedi, a Jedi who could use both light and dark and still serve the order and the Republic willingly. that's what Revan was as a force user.
I only like form 3 as a supplementary form, as with Ataru.
Something I need to get off my chest about Kreia. I don’t think we should be giving her too much credit when it comes to dueling, considering it was never her primary focus. At best, she’s an expert who knows every form on an academic level and could effectively teach anyone any of the forms to a certain degree. IMO, she knows she isn’t the greatest duelist, she relies heavily on the force to win the bout or shock and awe tactics to misdirect foes into thinking she’s better than she is. She knows each form, but is a master of none of them
Dat random Halo 3 music makes my day ;)
I would argue that Anakin skywalker both in Revenge of the sith and during his time as Darth Vader was an expert practicioner of form 3 because technically, form 5 was created from form 3 and 4
djem so was a synthesis of shii cho, makashi, and soresu. no ataru in it. ataru stands outside the evolutional tree of shii cho.
+Ruination1000 No source says anything about Form 5 being created from 2 and 3.
+Jeff Collins yes they do. jedi path and guide to the force
format 5 was created as answer to to the almost complete lack of offense of form 3. I've read the Jedi Path as well and no other derivative form was mentioned. Form 5's dealing aspect is based on power strikes, completely the opposite of form 2.
The book says Form 5 derived from Form 3, not 2. Here I'll write out the exact line:
"The form came into existence through the efforts of Jedi Masters who believe that Form III, Soresu, did not allow sufficient opportunities for counterattack."
No mention of Form 2.
That said I do agree with Darmeda 45. People overlook Anakin's defensive capabilities. That is _half_ of Djem So after all.
Thx. Gr8 as usual
I'm torn about this Form because not only is it a form I would recommend to almost anyone who wanted to learn light saber combat in any capacity, but I'm not sure if I woulds specialize in it because to both does and doesn't fit my personal nature in regards to combat and conflict. I am normally an very passive person who likes to avoid combat, but once it becomes unavoidable by circumstance or by principle I do a complete 180 and become aggressive and confrontation. I go on the attack and in situations where I'm really stressed or angry get borderline berserk. Potentially great in a pinch but not the right mentality for a Soresu practitioner. Then again when I have spared I have found that when forced into a corner my defense works its best when I do drop into an Obiwan Kennobi "Let go of your thoughts and move with the flow" state of mind.
I'm not sure if this is a form I would or should specialize in if I were to learn light saber combat. anyone got any thoughts on this.
As a passive guy also, I find it hard to pin down my favourite Forms (most of the time it's Forms V and VI). However, like you Form III fits me personally and philosophically. When I briefly studied karate a few years ago, in sparring my immediate response was to block or defend myself (I hardly ever made counters until I felt ready to).
I see Form IV as the ideal partner to Form III, they have an almost yin/yang relationship. Based on your description I would say you're either a Form IV or Form VII attacker, but at your very core you are definitely Form III. Either attacking Form would make a great companion to the defensive Form. I hope this helps in some way
From the sound of it, Form V might be more up your alley. But I like Soresu if only for one thing, it lets you survive. If you're in over your head, it's a form that you can use to survive and regroup, a problem I have with Ataru and Juyo is their commitment to offense. To be fair, they work. But if you're ever in qui-gons position where you can't bring your skill to bear on an opponent, you have nothing else. In instances where those form practitioners couldn't break through an opponents defense, Kota vs Galen comes to mind, they have to change tact or be stuck in a situation they can't win in.
Nathan Fite I agree with your assessment on forms IV and VII. this is why I think I would fall more towards form V because its more about taking initiative than it is about offense. despite being the "Brute Force" style what its really all about is gaining control of a fight applying a from II mentality with a more aggressive fighting style.
Darth Marder I have also taken karate and have noticed that I favor defense if I'm not confident about my ability to attack. What I have noticed is that I have a lot more success when I stop passively responding and try to find a way to attack. My issue was that I was younger student and thus usually the small guy so I had an uphill battle. The problem with a passive response is that you often surrender control of the situation.
I've taken Karate as well. I agree with you that a passive response can easily allow for a lost of control for most people. However masters could potentially turn passivity into action. I.E drawing out a fight until the opponent collapses from exhaustion or drawing a fight to a more favorable location. I favor Maui Thai in my hand to hand combat. It works for me since it allows me to go into a defensive stance that I favor until my opponent slips up. But I do incorporate JuJitsu and other styles to be more rounded. So I'd go for Forms I-III while considering the Shien branch of form V if I were a Jedi. I like the versatility.
so what if you combine djien sho and soresu? would you become unstoppable? i mean what form would be able to stand up to you
reaper of death I have the same question, hahaha
A perfect combo in my opinion, use Soresu to defend while conserving your energy as well as studying your opponent, then when they begin to tire hammer away at them with some Djem So cleaves.
Ah yes. A Star Wars video with halo music. Amazing
is it me, or is the sound only coming out of the right side?
isn't valenthyne farfalla a soresu user too? I mean he is most likely a makashi user but I mean makashi wouldn't help him survive as long as he did against bane
Form 3 Masters are said to be invincible with that said notable losses to form 3 Darth Bane, General Grievous, Darth Maul, Darth Vader pre-suit, in the right hands form 3 truly is invincible.
Great well put video
i like forms 1, 3, 4, 5 specifically shien, 6 niman and jar'kai, and 7 specifically vaapad.
honorable mention i think juyo is interesting but it is not my most favorite.
Mine is Djem so, Soresu, Ataru, Niman, and Jar kai
Honorable mention goes to Vaapad, I consider it to be the more complete version of form 7 in comparison to Juyo, but Jedi have fallen to the dark side because of their lack of understanding of how to properly use the form
So does Rey use Soresu ? In Battlefront 2 her defense is straight up Form III. Kylo is Form 5 just like his grandfather.
Meanwhile, Obi Wan is broken and feels completely stiff...
I'm just wondering does this Stance clash somewhat with a mindset a Sith would have? I wonder what kind of a fighter a form 3 using Sith would be. I guess they could use some offensive ranged force powers?
@Jango The Ripper I know about Zannah but not sure how proficient she exactly was with Form 3. She does not strike me as that much of a lightsaber duelist. I think for a sorceress the usage of a double bladed weapon seems more of a hindrance than a boon. Overall I think she is a lackluster character, but she is admittedly a good example of a Sith Soresu user.
In my own headcanon, most Sith would be too impatient for Form 3, and it unfortunately gives it that "good guys use it" characteristic. The two circumventions for a dark sider using it as a main weapon would be to augment their combat with insidious force abilities that sap vitality of the foe. And an older Sith master with a more cold, seething kind of disposition.
What is your favorite lightsaber form and tell me why is your favorite lightsaber combat for all Star Wars?
Ah, the "the better you get, the more unfair you become" form. I know that no piece of Star Wars media has ever really captured the stonewall approach of Soresu accurately, but whenever you or another versus RUclipsr talks about it, it's always in regards to Obi-Wan and somewhere the words "damn near unkillable" will appear. I prefer more dynamic lightsaber combat myself.
Is it just me or is combining Form 5 and Form 3 kinda pointless? Because for example Djem So focuses on defending and then counter attacking, same for Shien where as Soresu is just the defending.
not quite, djem so isnt defensive at all its all about power blows and countering through quick heavy cleaves
11:56 Isn't that the point? With that kind of defense, you're basically invincible and all you have to do is wait and counter. With one blade, you're hard to hit, but still killable. With extra blades, you're untouchable and in fact have a better offense now.
Here's the problem. Two blades doesn't equal better. You lose the ability to block a strong attack since you can't align yourself with the blade for the most effective block, you're relying on parries which won't last once your opponent figures out what you're doing. Soresu also has next to no offense. Its a failing of the form, even if we assume the offense is the counters, it doesn't have a way to take control of the fight without defense or it being a circumstance of the fight rather than the skill of the user. With two blades, you're having to divert attention from honing your craft to learning how to use the two blades in tandem with little concern for tangling or lapses which isn't an easy task. What two blades offers is option, not superiority. With two blades I can block with one blade while stabbing my opponent, I can attack from multiple directions: a high downward attack and a low horizontal slash and more. Thats where Soresu doesn't take advantage of the dual blades. It's a bunch of stances with little to no movement to maximize defensive coverage. Dual blades are proactive by nature while Soresu is reactive.
Shit! Appreciate the reply.
And here's my problem: In the video Jensaarai1 just complains that it makes your defense better. Nothing about the actual flaws of form you point out, just "Your good defense is now better, whoopdy-f***ing-do."
I appreciate your explanation though, Nathan.
You're welcome. I must point out though that at the time of the videos posting, Jensarri1 was under a copyright strike and was limited to 15 min videos. Given the amount information he wanted to put in, something would have to be on the chopping block.
Why not make a supplement video pointing out the forms flaws and direct people to it in the main video then?
Darth zhannah form 3 mastery edge in form 3 is speed and force perception while kenobi is force atunement and force perception. It really begs a question on how fast bane and zhannah really are,dooku is faster then general greivous. Not even in her prime she delt with 3 jedi masters on battle meditation when she fought bane in doe she noted bane was much faster than before. So where does exar kun rank in speed?
Anyone else notice he said Kenobi appears in the flesh in out of the 6 movies instead of 4 out of the 7?
because he recognizes the sequel trilogies are shit? And kenobi has only participated in four on screen lightsaber duels?
So where is that video on marks of contact and other miscellaneous lightsaber maneuvers?
obi wans legendary force augmented resilience plus being a seresu master is how he beat so many dangerous people