Two Old English Words for "Fate"
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- Опубликовано: 15 фев 2024
- Two words for "fate"--'wyrd' and 'metod'--are often handled the same in translations of Old English poetry, but the two words have clearly different implications.
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Considering I'm doing my dissertation on fate and fatalism in Old Norse literature, any discussion of fate in the Germanic languages is absolutely welcome! Thereagain, I welcome every video you post because I find this stuff fantastically interesting in general, so there's that :D
You know it was cold out there when the hat has been replaced with a beanie
As someone who just recently found your channel, and finds it absolutely fascinating, it is very sad to hear that it doesn't really pay that well. I completely understand that you might want to focus more on the lectures in the future, but your videos are a gold mine of information on this subject, and with no pseudo science or modern guru bs. Thank you for all the great work you have done and continue to do in this field!
Now I want an Old English version of O Fortuna from the Carmina Burana.
I've just bought your book "A Wanderer's Havamal". So far it's amazing. It's a must-have.
You might consider "weird-staff" as gloss for "distaff". Particularly in view of "wyrd"'s root of 'wert-' (to turn) and the connection of fate in the Norse outlook being woven/determined by the Norns. Even 'Metod', the measurer, fits in with this conceit, as part of weaving is the measuring and cutting of thread.
Interesting thought: a 'turn-staff', eg a staff to be used with a spindle.
14:20 Théoden, nice one.
I appreciate the depth of knowledge and passion you bring to your content. Thank you for sharing and hello from Slovenia :)
The American timbre completely disappears from your voice when you speak OE. It was also nice to hear a reference to Weland that I hadn’t heard before.
Funny thing: Whenever I listen to reconstructed OE phonetics, it often reminds me of the kind of traditional western American accent that Dr. Crawford speaks. It felt to me like he was speaking his native language lol
I was gonna say the opposite, when he speaks it that quickly the American accent comes thru quite clearly, imo. in slower readings, such as the beowulf series with simon, there's much less american
In Scots the word "weird" is used for destiny. As in "Ye maun dree yeir ain weird" you must suffer your own destiny. But the word "weird" apparently is closer in meaning to the similar Dutch word "worden" which means something like become. In Scots it has a sense of being made to become something or to be directed in a direction or result.
Love it! Really enjoying your reading of Beowulf with Simon as well. Thank you for this!
Suggesting you and Roper craft a story where your characters meet again and discuss something in Old Norse and Old English. Maybe Rainieri should interrupt you and try to impose Roman rule.
"Undoomed" as basically "unfey" ... to me that's real interesting, like, I wonder about the route by which "fey" has come into modern language. It probably got there much the way elves did, i.e. that which was monstrous eventually became too good-natured and insubstantial to worry about.
Wyrd twists the thread, Metod measures it, who cuts it?
If Metod is the Providential God, he who measures it, cuts it.
Interesting that 'weird' only made it into modern English meaning strange and shed its wider meaning it had back then.
Your mordant sense of humor displayed near the video's end is delightful
Not in everyday speech, perhaps. Weird was still used for fate and the Fates in literature and poetry in the 19th century and early 20th. It even survived in folklore: "1899 With this green nettle And cross of metal I witches and wierds defy. J. Spence, Shetland Folk-lore 143". It has, of course, been revived in the second half of the 20th century by the renaissance of the fantasy genre. In more general literature it may sometimes be used for comedic archaic effect "1996 I am..hunched keening under the bedclothes with a Cadbury's Creme Egg, dreeing my feeble weird. Independent (Nexis) 25 February 42" The Scots seem more inclined to dree their weird. Was it ever an everyday topic in Old English?
In Scots we still use weird in the sense of fate, e.g. when saying that "a man must thole his weird" = a man must bear his fate.
Thank you so much for these videos. I would love to be able to contribute to your Patreon, but circumstances prevent it. One day... the sooner the better! It is generous of you to provide this education for free, and I am grateful to you for that. Such an interesting video as I have recently been thinking about wyrd and have noticed a number of recent books discussing matters Anglo-Saxon choose not to translate wyrd but leave it as it is.
Very interesting discussion - thanks for all the work you put into these videos, Doc! 🥰
excellent video there.
I like your videos, please don't quit 😢
Cool exposition!
I love that you note your growth and remain positive about it. If we hadn't once been there, then we would not now be here. I'm sure that sounds much cooler in Old English.
keep posting, i appreciate all the work you put in, its been of great service to me. i hope to be able to return the favor as i am able. for now, i look forward to your posts and shorts.
It seems the older the text, the more authentic it feels and resonates at a soul level. I’m 38 years old, I’ve read a fair share of the Bible, but nothing has been able to satiate the yearning for Truth that I’ve felt my entire existence. A truth that hasn’t been tampered with. Since I’ve found this channel, I’ve been experiencing synchronicities, symbols, and random crows showing up on nature walks. I feel most liberated when I dedicate my time in search of wisdom and truth. Especially during times like these. Thanks for creating a channel that supports those of us on that path.
I enjoy all your content, but the Old English - slash - Beowulf content is especially interesting for me, so...thanks! Greetings from SLC!
Peace
I thought something like Swedish "öde" would be one of the words for fate discussed here. I remember passing a road sign decades ago while driving south in Sweden, naming a community or place called "Ödeshög", which I thought meant "fate pile" back then, and wondered about it. Probably means more like "fate barrow" or "fate mound".
Öde also has the meaning of barren or empty. But in Ödeshög it's actually from a name, Ödhir. So the meaning is simply Ödhir's mound.
@@TinaWiman According to Swedish definitions and English translations, the most common usage of "öde" is destiny or fate. What you gave is the secondary definition.
@@Wadidiz In _Svensk etymologisk ordbok_ (1st ed., 1922) page 1229 has _Ödeshög, sn i Ögtl., fsv. Ödhishögh, snarast ej till fsv. sbst. ödhe (se öde 1), utan till ett fsv. personn._
In English, _Ödeshög_ is from Old Swedish _Ödhishögh,_ most likely not from Old Swedish noun _ödhe_ but to an Old Swedish given name.
@@Wadidiz I am Swedish. It's not a primary and secondary definition as in "more or less commonly used", it's two words that are spelled the same way but have slightly different etymologies, acquiring different meanings over time.
If you talk of an empty field or an old ruin, you call it öde. I you talk about the fate of a man you call it öde. Ödeshög, however, has a somewhat different etymological history. It's from a mans name, Ödhir, which can also be used as a name for Odin.
All of these words are from the same root, öde meaning fate, öde meaning "left to it's fate" i e ruined, barrened or empty, and Ödhir used as a name, and sometimes referring to Odin.
In the case of Ödeshög I'd say a large majority of native Swedish speakers would spontaneously favor the "ruin/empty" interpretation, since "hög" is a place, and places are more often ruins than somehow fatebound (sadly ;-) ). But by historians the name is interpreted as "Ödhirs (grave) mound". Ödhir being perhaps a man, perhaps Odin himself. I believe the mound is no longer there, but has been plowed down over the centuries.
Thanks for sharing your old presentation! Think I might cringe too much if I read my university work 😂
Does this make :'Metod' a bit like Tolkien's use of 'Providence' (a circumspect way of referring to God putting His finger on the scales)?
Love learning from your channel!
Thanks for sharing. I like the grey in the beard. Could be a lot bit longer...
The Weird of the White Wolf
The version of Beowulf that have was written when Christanty was becoming the ruling religon.
It was written down 300 years after Christianity became the established religion of the kingdoms of what is now England.
If you're doing some Old English word studies, could you perhaps make a video on "garsecg" on day? An Old English word for the sea that looks like a kenning (spear-man?) but appears in prose texts too and seems an unusual description.
What would be the word for destiny? I'm so intrigued how "wyrd" or "metod" relate to fate as to do with the arabic lot in astrology called the lot of fortune, which is often related to fate, as opposed to the lot of spirit which itself is often related to destiny! And the "allotter' as I can relate it perhaps to the Myth of Er and the three weavers that allot fate essentially, as I vaguely recall the Myth. How fascinating, in my mind, the resonances of the etymology for "fate" in Old English!
I wish we had word for word translations sometimes. But heck wryd is weird, and often we can't find the correct word when we will it, regardless what we want anyhow. Nothing personal *wink*
Loved this! ❤
Lastly, not the subject, BUT, I wonder how that effects Raknarok preparations.
What about "Orlay", from Old English orlæg?
i'm trying to figure out if the "atgeir" was really something like a bardiche that vikings used
What about Old English "hlot", from which modern English "lot" developed? In modern Dutch, "lot" is pretty much the only remaining word for "fate".
That's interesting. I'd like to more know as well.
Wyrd seems almost like karma, the fate you have earned, impersonal. But Metod, at least in this period, maybe invokes some sense of divine grace, In the Christian sense. Your wyrd can be averted by prevailing upon the grace of God to spare you? I'd really be interested in comparing conceptions of fate in the various Indo European traditions. (Spin, measure, cut, as in Greek...is Metod equivalent to the one who measures out strands of fate, or cuts it ?)
Seems like a reasonable way to translate “metod” would be “Providence”
Metod=orlog?
I couldn't find anyone asking about this in the comments, but I might have missed it. In völuspá Ask and Embla are called "orlogslausa" when the gods find them. It's my understanding that "orlog" is fate/destiny but the literal meaning is something along the lines of "that which is laid out". Could this be connected to the same idea as metod?
I'd like to purchase some lordly bale
Othin the All-Orderer and his pet Metod the All-Otter
And his favourite cooking ingredient, Garlic the All-ium. (Do I have to mention it means spear-leek? Of course not, you know that.)
It's a shame we don't have the Pre-Christianized version of Beowulf preserved, the Christian translators whom we've inherited the story from likely changed some of the contextual meaning of how these terms were used and thought of in the heathen context.
It would have been much wyrder.
... sorry about B-ing off-topic, BUTTT, NOT sure when or how 2 ask this, + hearing a response, this DEFINITELY, would have worked better, during may-B after Hrolf Kraki episode (which i have yet 2-C) BUT,just dying 2 know if you have ever read ANY of Poul Anderson's Norse fiction/" Historic "-fiction, books, especially "Hrolf Kraki's Saga, King Harold Hardrede(sorry!spelling!?!) Any way 2 me a SUPER -LAYMEN", just the atmosphere of his Norse writing's...just curious if you have ever read ANY...Thank You 4 your time...
Would "fortune" and "providence" be fair (if awfully Rumisk) glosses for "wyrd" and "metod"?
Can you, perhaps in a future video, explain "odde on baele" (burnt on bale)? That is a phrase that has no meaning to me.
I like the use of archaic English translations, notably when they parallel the Old English /Old Norse text with cognates. I would prefer a translation that was word-for-word and which selected cognates for each word as a base...and then an idiomatic translation (as in Wanderer's Havamal) to accompany it. I have noticed that, at least with Middle English, if you get your brain in the right groove of which cognates and sentence structures to use, a modern person can pretty much just read it. Reading along with you in these videos, there is a hint that one could read Old English that way too.
I wish i had time to take your Old Norse class.
Can we get an etymology of Hønefoss
Go Dawgs!
Fate is not what you believe it to be. Fate is what happens. You can argue with a personal god. Fate happens and we roll with it.
Some people will go to absurd lengths to reject fate. Fate is revealed even if your eyes are closed.
They tried to edit an all powerful theocracy into the high seat. They couldn't get rid of fate. It's like saying what happens isn't real.
They aren't in control anymore, their faith out of popularity. Fate still happens, and we keep observing it.
The connection between "Wyrd" and the auxiliary verb "weorthan" also seems to be relevant to interpreting "Wyrd" more in the nature of "outcome" than "fate."
I'd probably 'become' instead of outcome.
Wyrd bith swithost 'fate is strongest.'
@@demi3115 Except that "become" isn't a noun
Maybe translate _metod_ as Providence, capitalized so.
Fate and doom? How does this relate to wyrd?
Doom?
OÞER
second.
I swear, it's a dead-on impression of the Swedish Chef.
Ayo first
Wyrd is likely "future", "what will happen", compare to German "wird", "destiny". Writing it as "weird" instead is plain wrong and misleading as that is a way different word.
Weird comes from wyrd, and 'weorthan' is become in old English, wyrd is related to it just like urthr is related to verthandi. What form of German is wird? In high German it was wurt and old Saxon it was wurd... Ever heard of 'the weird sisters' in Macbeth? The weird there doesn't mean strange.
@@redwaldcuthberting7195 What I say is that writing wyrd as weird is incorrect and misleading, great example with Macbeth. As for the German, my example is modern. But I don't dive too far into the wowel-issue, wowels tend to change, I focus on the w*rd/t and on the actual meaning. If you haven't learned German - no disrespect - I strongly suggest you do, it is a fun language. And thank you indeed for supplementing, good food for additional thought.
Sister languages? Yes! My Swedish born friends living in America speak English with no accent. Norwegian-Americans believe the Norwegian language is awful after attending their parents' Norwegian speaking churches.