Lutoslawski is definitely the best of this tough batch. Difficult, challenging music, yes, that's true, but ultimately rewarding. A great provider of spellbinding, albeit taxing beauty and lushly forbidding Musicalscapes masterfully realised. Love it.
Thank you for playing the ending of Lutoslawski's Third. One of the proufound miracles in the history of music--or in the history of any art form. The way the texture suddenly crystalizes, accelerates, and ascends. I am astonished by this every time I hear it. Now, concerning William Schuman: Count me in as an absolute fan. As an adolescent brought up in Texas, his music represented an escape to urbanity, sweeping gestures, modernism, skyscrapers. I love the third movement of the 8th Symphony. Majestic yet jazzy. There's nothing quite like it.
Schuman was a tough interview, too. I had the misfortune of asking him a few questions for an article about him being honored with some award, and let's just say the questions were not up to his expected standards of musical discourse. He let me know it, and shut me down hard. He then had a great time gossiping about Roald Dahl's married life with the photographer.
Thank God for this, Dave! When I first REALLY got into 20th century American music (outside of the standard Bernstein/Copland axis), I was delighted to discover the symphonies of Diamond, Hanson, Harris, Ives and Piston (amongst others). I also found William Schuman, and lashed out on the box set of his complete symphonies you have in your hand. Well! I perservered and was sure that repeated listening would reveal the magic. I chewed on the bones and the gristle and fought the music again and again. Now, that box is available to anyone who wants to come around and pick it up. What a disappointment, and what a relief that a pro like you shares my feelings about this music. I agree with you often - Shostakovitch! Nielsen! Vaughan Williams! Janacek! Martinu! I also disagree with you on many things too. But I feel in good company when it comes to the unlistenable toughness of Schuman. 🙂
Thank you for this analysis. I have always liked Lutoslawski's music a great deal. The Witt recordings are wonderful. I have never been able to listen to Schuman at all. Beyond me.
I really liked the comment about "struggling to achieve melody" - that captures well for me the drama and tension in Lutoslawski (that ending of the 3rd is one of my favorite moments in music, period). But it also, for me, rings true of Schuman, whose music I love. Schuman's music is always struggling furiously to achieve, if not quite melody, at least release from struggle, or perhaps "song." The symphonies are restless, tormented music; at their best (i.e. not 4, 7, and 10, which indeed seem, even to me, formulaic and uninhabited), something of value is won from it all, achieved from the struggle. That said, I think his masterpiece is The Mighty Casey (great songs, tight drama, and colorful, expressive orchestral interludes - it has everything, and deserves to be known).
Somehow, last night while looking for a movie online, I stumbled into something entirely different: the opera Die Soldaten by Bernd Alois Zimmermann. Normally something I would bypass but somehow it really gripped and grabbed me. Then I checked out his Violin Concerto and rather liked that, too. And I'm normally not a dissonance guy. It might have something to do with my current mood and embrace of complexity. Definitely a "tough" composer to maybe give a talk on, depending on whether you think much of him or not.
The finale of Lutoslawski's first is massively underrated. It's got this unique and amazing flippant attitude (i mean that in the best way) that is so hard to find in most other symphonies and because of that it sounds so fresh
My sense is that Schuman's Third Symphony is thought by many critics and musicologists to be "the" quintessential "American" symphony. I completely love the work, and always have. The other great one is the Eighth.
I honestly think Schuman is less formulaic than most US symphonists, and he had a very personal and clear sense of colour I find. As for melodic interest, that is definitely subjective! I know what you mean about his trying hard, I think it's more that he wanted his music to have a self-contained logic, that's a 'sense' I suppose you feel or not, it works for me.
yeah, formulaic perhaps (having reached your review point). Strikes me often as what i've described before, "film music, without the baggage of having actually seen the film". But at least harmonically it has more going for it than some modern film scores (cough cough 2-note Zimmer cough cough). Still, something about it clicks with me that I still listen. (of note, there's a passage I just got reminded of at the end of the 2nd movement of the 7th that is almost note-for-note something Leonard Rosenman used in his later career, especially in his 2 Apes film and the Bakshi Lord of the Rings - I wonder who did it first...)
I’ve been listening to and loving Wm. Schuman’s music since high school and that was the mid-’60s. One of my favorite pieces of music is “Credendum“ (“Article of Faith“) which was commisioned by UNESCO. Like a symphony, it consists of 3 movements. The fast movements are bright, polytonal and rhythmically propulsive. But the slow middle movement (“Chorale“) is one of the most beautiful heartfelt compositions I know of. And it is melodically very accesible.
Another fine edition in your Tough Symphonists series, Dave. I wasn't familiar with Valen, but I will definitely follow up on Lutoslawski's symphonies. Thanks. As for Schuman, I mostly agree with your assessment of his symphonic output. But I wholeheartedly recommend his 3rd. I've been listening to Schuman's 3rd Symphony for over 50 years, starting with Bernstein's first recording on a Columbia LP borrowed from the library. With the unfolding intensity of the opening Passacaglia (although it seems more like a fugato, don't you think?), I was instantly hooked. Memorable highlights for me include the powerful first climax of the Fugue on four virtuosic trumpets; the serene Chorale on divided violas and cellos with solo trumpet and flute; the exciting Toccata finale-kicked off by a bass clarinet solo-with divisi strings like an accelerating locomotive, fat eight-note pizzicato chords and the breathless coda punctuated by snare drum rimshots. Schuman's 3rd Symphony is a unique achievement and it gets my vote for “The Great American Symphony.” Speaking of GAS, Dave-is that a concept you would be interested in developing as a series?
Another great series David. IF you haven’t alreaydone him can I suggest Kabelač. I chanced upon his 8th symphony on a Czech radio station and bought his complete cycle on Supraphon.
No. Valen is a fine composer. Not all gray, not all grim, not that circumscribed emotionally if you can "get" it, which I do. Just looking at his scores is a satisfying experience. And no need to say that that experience beats listening to him as that would be a cheap shot.
Have always liked symphonies 3,4,5, and 6. The others I've heard not so much. A critic once sayd of the 6th "It pleads its case from the footlights." Also like Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra.
Love this series. After diligently collecting much of Lutoslawski and Schuman's orchestral stuff over the years, I have to acknowledge that with the exception of Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra and Polish Christmas Carols, Schuman's 3rd Symphony and V.C., they seldom make it off my shelves. I agree, much of Schuman sounds formulaic and mechanical. With Lutoslawski it's his style changes that throw me off. Mind you, Stravinsky used to give me the same problem but no longer. Valen's new to me. The excerpt you played sounds exactly like the Schoenberg pastiche in Hoffnung's 'Metamorphosis on Bedtime Themes'. I wonder who was taking off whom.
Great talk, like always. I would like to submit two composers for this serie: Aho and Vasks. I really like their music. It is accessible, but probably still quite tough for most listeners... And it would be great to hear about other works from both, in particular Vasks (concertos, choral music, etc.).
The Schuman clip reminded me that Gerry Schwarz did some good things in Seattle, and in particular really upped the brass section of the orchestra. Lutoslawski is one of my favorites, I fell in love instantly with the piano concerto (lush, nocturnal at times and exciting); I dove right into his other works. Lutoslawski's execution of aleatoric passages seems very natural and unforced even though his scores are highly notated and clearly meticulously conceived. Additionally as you alluded to David, certainly his later works always have endings that make complete sense in the context of the work and are incredibly satisfying. Please consider doing a talk about his concerti and other works!
Really, that's subjective. What about Penderecki, Shostakovich, Arnold, Bax, Lloyd, plus living composers, John Adams and the brilliant Kalevi Aho. That's just for starters. He was brilliant yes but the very best, that's too big a statement.
@@stuartraybould2574 havent really gotten into Penderecki... Shostakovich is great sometimes. Bax, never really got into his music. John Adams... Same thing never could get into him. Some of my favorite 20th-century composers are Ligeti, Rautavaara, Bibalo, Arapov... I guess i like atonality, 12tone if they can sort of sound Romantic, stir my passion that way, if you get my drift
@@jdiwkall I love Rautavaara too. If you like him you're going to love Kalevi Aho, he studied under Rautavaara. First four symphonies have a feel of Shostakovich and Rautavaara having a baby, after that though he really as his own voice. All his music is fantastic. Seidi and Symphony 5 are amazing. His Oboe and Orchestra Concerto is wonderful, very Arabic influence. Also his Symphony 15 cd on bis is world music, very interesting. Symphonic Dances and Symphony 10,very exciting. I'd start with Symphony 4,very beautiful but all his music is wonderful and bis cds sound amazing, a few are sacd in 5.0, symphony 12 is especially great in 5.0 but stereo layer is equally excellent. Penderecki, my favourites apart from the brilliant symphonies are Credo, Magnificant and piano concertos but it's all great. Oh, if you like Ligeti, give John Adams Scheherazade a go, it might change your mind about him.
Valen, yeah, darkly appealing. Relentless, as you say. A bit filmy, actually. Id never heard of him so many thanks. Ive queued the symphonies in RUclips Music...
Well, Schuman... My first encounter with him was live in a Bernstein-NYP-concert with US-composers only, featuring Gershwin („Rhapsody“), Copland („Lincoln“), Schuman‘s 3rd, Harris‘ 3rd, „Candide“-Ouverture and Ives‘ „Question“, the last two being a death sentence for the rest. But the Schuman was the one I remembered the worst. Later, I bought some of his symphonies and other stuff, but nothing was especially gripping; I remember a Viola concerto with women‘s choir, the „New England Tryptich“ and the opera „The Mighty Casey“, but very seldom I come home thinking „now it‘s time for having fun with Schuman“. Valen was THE composer, when I was in Norway with Antonio Bibalo. My problem with Valen is that he writes 4-voice-counterpoint all the time, avoiding color like death. There are a few impressive short works, but the symphonies and the Violin Concerto are tiresome. The best of the three is Lutoslawski, in my opinion, and I think that he isn‘t so hard to listen to. There is always something one can follow, and there’s a tension, which makes his music always so gripping. My suggestions for tough symphonists: Egon Wellesz, Peter Mennin (very interesting development, I guess) and Havergal Brian, the thorniest tonal music I know. Great talk, as always - thanks for all the inspiration!
wow, echoes of Prokofiev 3rd in that Lutoslawski 3rd. My first experience with Lutoslawski was being obligated to play the Concerto for Orchestra which I found too logical and symmetrical to be interesting. It took me a while to get into his other much much much more adventurous symphonic pieces( some smaller ones, not symphonies):-)
Thanks, Dave! I have the Naxos Schuman box and was determined to find it interesting as it is a major tranche of Americana. But yes, must admit don’t listen much. Lutoslawski though, oh boy. Yes, that ending of Symphony nr 3 is just marvellous and this finally emerged in the 1980s! Is it referencing Beethoven 5? No matter really maybe. But it has the bell type sounds of Slavic music and everything. Worth him taking 10 years to write in my view. Now we need a bit more of that in the concert hall…
“I think that Schuman tried too hard as a symphonist.” Spot-on. Something similar could be said for Robert Simpson in Britain. Big, rather gaseous works that perhaps offer intellectual stimulation but are difficult to love on a visceral level.
Dave’s opinion of W. Schuman’s symphonies very much resembles my opinion of Robert Simpson’s. Cold, cerebral music which a friend of mine has accurately described as “Nielsen without the tunes”.
Schuman is a bit of a struggle, I concur, and his string sections often feel like they're bogged down in mud or something. As for Simpson, his 6th and 9th are personal favourites. The 1st movement of the 6th is particularly visceral. But a lot of his music does sound rather gaseous. Still, to these ears Simpson is the better composer. I much prefer listening to musical nebulas than to tedious and pointless struggles;
What you say about symphonies it's also true with opera: the golden age is not the 19th century or the Baroque period, but the first half of the 20th century.
I actually find Valen's style somewhat interesting, but somehow the music has always made a bit stagnant impression. Despite the fact that his symphonies are short, I got bored because the music didn't seem to be going anywhere. But I'm looking forward to the next episodes of this series. There is an abundance of tough symphonists out there, like Penderecki or Schnittke for example. Not to mention Galina Ustvolskaya, who seems to have become something of a soup of the day -composer (at least for some). Or what about Joonas Kokkonen? I noticed that you found the first two of his four symphonies a bit too austere (or even grim), but numbers 3 & 4 considerably more appealing.
Valen and Lutoslawski put me in mind of another tough symphonist, Ib Nørholm, although recordings of his music aren't too easy to find. I'd be interested to know Dave's take on him.
I honestly don't know him well enough to judge. I've heard a few things and they didn't make a strong enough impression to motivate me to spend more time with him, but that doesn't mean anything.
Great discussion! I could never stand Schuman’s symphonies-so dry and academic. I tried to like his Third Symphony in a Bernstein recording, but it in no way compared to Harris or even Copland in their thirds. I have Schwarz’s disc with the the New England Triptych and Ives Variations and find the couplings of the Fifth Symphony and Judith boring. I don’t know Valen at all, but will have to become acquainted with his music. Now to Lutoslawski, probably my favorite symphonist of the late 20th century. I love his symphonies, but am still coming to terms with the difficult Second. Interesting that the Berlin Phil recently performed the First Symphony which is available on their Digital Concert Hall. That work reminds me not only of Bartok and Stravinsky but also of Roussel in its neo-classicism. There is a lot of choice now on CD for Lutoslawski. Lintu on Ondine is unbeatable, but Wit is also terrific. I still like Salonen a lot for the Fourth that was dedicated to him and the LAPO and was fortunate to see/hear them in concert when they came to the Kennedy Center years ago. ,
I find the Valen less interesting, mostly due to it's kind of depressive for me, and I need more motion, more grip, things that the other two composers do offer.
I had the Naxos Schuman symphony box a number of years ago, then donated it after realizing I’d never listen through it again. Muti performed the Schuman 9 with Chicago 4 or 5 years ago. Muti and the CSO wrung every ounce of interesting material they could put of the piece, and I still found it fairly forgettable.
Great discussion! I could never stand Schuman’s symphonies-so dry and boring, as you have indicated. The best word for them is “academic.” I tried to like his Third Symphony in one of Bernstein’s recordings, but it in no way compared to Harris or Copland in their similarly numbered works. I have Schwarz’s disc with the New England Triptych and Ives Variations, the only pieces I listen to and find both couplings of Judith and the Fifth Symphony dry as dust! I don’t know Valen at all, but will have to become familiar with him. Now to Lutoslawski, my favorite symphonist of the late 20th century. I love his symphonies, but am still coming to terms with the gnarly Second. Interesting that the Berlin Phil recently performed the First Symphony and may be viewed on their Digital Concert Hall. It reminds me not just of Bartok and Stravinsky, but also Roussel. There is a lot of choice on disc now for Lutoslawski. Lintu on Ondine is unbeatable in all four with the best sound, but Wit is also terrific. I still like Salonen a lot for the Fourth that was composed for him and the LAPO and was fortunate to see/hear them do it in concert when they came to the Kennedy Center years ago.
Quite agree about Wm. Schumann... I don't even like the 3rd, which is far and away his most popular and listenable in the genre. Valen I had never heard of. I thought the bit you played was slightly better than the buildup you gave, but not enough that I want to go exploring. Lutoslawski is among the 20th century's greatest composers. I particularly adore the Concerto for Orchestra. The thing is, some composers are better when they're gnarlier, and some even manage to pull off "grisaille" effectively. But those are rare cases. Great series!
Lutoslawski is definitely the best of this tough batch. Difficult, challenging music, yes, that's true, but ultimately rewarding. A great provider of spellbinding, albeit taxing beauty and lushly forbidding Musicalscapes masterfully realised. Love it.
Awesome!
Thank you for playing the ending of Lutoslawski's Third. One of the proufound miracles in the history of music--or in the history of any art form. The way the texture suddenly crystalizes, accelerates, and ascends. I am astonished by this every time I hear it. Now, concerning William Schuman: Count me in as an absolute fan. As an adolescent brought up in Texas, his music represented an escape to urbanity, sweeping gestures, modernism, skyscrapers. I love the third movement of the 8th Symphony. Majestic yet jazzy. There's nothing quite like it.
100% agree about the third movement of Schuman's 8th, such fun!
Schuman was a tough interview, too. I had the misfortune of asking him a few questions for an article about him being honored with some award, and let's just say the questions were not up to his expected standards of musical discourse. He let me know it, and shut me down hard. He then had a great time gossiping about Roald Dahl's married life with the photographer.
Thank God for this, Dave! When I first REALLY got into 20th century American music (outside of the standard Bernstein/Copland axis), I was delighted to discover the symphonies of Diamond, Hanson, Harris, Ives and Piston (amongst others). I also found William Schuman, and lashed out on the box set of his complete symphonies you have in your hand. Well! I perservered and was sure that repeated listening would reveal the magic. I chewed on the bones and the gristle and fought the music again and again. Now, that box is available to anyone who wants to come around and pick it up. What a disappointment, and what a relief that a pro like you shares my feelings about this music. I agree with you often - Shostakovitch! Nielsen! Vaughan Williams! Janacek! Martinu! I also disagree with you on many things too. But I feel in good company when it comes to the unlistenable toughness of Schuman. 🙂
I first encountered Lutoslawski’s music 🎶 through his piano 🎹 concerto written for Krystian Zimmerman and I was hooked since.
The concerto for orchestra of Lutoslawski is my first experience with this composer. And the symphonies are so imaginative , and full of treasure.
Thank you for this analysis. I have always liked Lutoslawski's music a great deal. The Witt recordings are wonderful. I have never been able to listen to Schuman at all. Beyond me.
I really liked the comment about "struggling to achieve melody" - that captures well for me the drama and tension in Lutoslawski (that ending of the 3rd is one of my favorite moments in music, period). But it also, for me, rings true of Schuman, whose music I love. Schuman's music is always struggling furiously to achieve, if not quite melody, at least release from struggle, or perhaps "song." The symphonies are restless, tormented music; at their best (i.e. not 4, 7, and 10, which indeed seem, even to me, formulaic and uninhabited), something of value is won from it all, achieved from the struggle. That said, I think his masterpiece is The Mighty Casey (great songs, tight drama, and colorful, expressive orchestral interludes - it has everything, and deserves to be known).
Somehow, last night while looking for a movie online, I stumbled into something entirely different: the opera Die Soldaten by Bernd Alois Zimmermann. Normally something I would bypass but somehow it really gripped and grabbed me. Then I checked out his Violin Concerto and rather liked that, too. And I'm normally not a dissonance guy. It might have something to do with my current mood and embrace of complexity. Definitely a "tough" composer to maybe give a talk on, depending on whether you think much of him or not.
@Outer Galaxy Lounge: if you have a chance you should watch "Die Soldaten" directed by Willy Decker. Best production of this piece ever!!!
The finale of Lutoslawski's first is massively underrated. It's got this unique and amazing flippant attitude (i mean that in the best way) that is so hard to find in most other symphonies and because of that it sounds so fresh
My sense is that Schuman's Third Symphony is thought by many critics and musicologists to be "the" quintessential "American" symphony. I completely love the work, and always have. The other great one is the Eighth.
Great series of videos that got me listening to a lot of new stuff
Glad to hear it!
I honestly think Schuman is less formulaic than most US symphonists, and he had a very personal and clear sense of colour I find. As for melodic interest, that is definitely subjective! I know what you mean about his trying hard, I think it's more that he wanted his music to have a self-contained logic, that's a 'sense' I suppose you feel or not, it works for me.
Thank you, David! I appreciate you mention Lutoslawski and the NAXOS box set.
Love William Schuman, even if most of his orchestral works habitually end with an energetic E flat major!
Same. Discovered him from the Bernstein Century recording (3,5,8) and opted to invest in the Naxos Schwarz cycle and never regretted it.
yeah, formulaic perhaps (having reached your review point). Strikes me often as what i've described before, "film music, without the baggage of having actually seen the film". But at least harmonically it has more going for it than some modern film scores (cough cough 2-note Zimmer cough cough). Still, something about it clicks with me that I still listen.
(of note, there's a passage I just got reminded of at the end of the 2nd movement of the 7th that is almost note-for-note something Leonard Rosenman used in his later career, especially in his 2 Apes film and the Bakshi Lord of the Rings - I wonder who did it first...)
I’ve been listening to and loving Wm. Schuman’s music since high school and that was the mid-’60s. One of my favorite pieces of music is “Credendum“ (“Article of Faith“) which was commisioned by UNESCO. Like a symphony, it consists of 3 movements. The fast movements are bright, polytonal and rhythmically propulsive. But the slow middle movement (“Chorale“) is one of the most beautiful heartfelt compositions I know of. And it is melodically very accesible.
Another fine edition in your Tough Symphonists series, Dave. I wasn't familiar with Valen, but I will definitely follow up on Lutoslawski's symphonies. Thanks.
As for Schuman, I mostly agree with your assessment of his symphonic output. But I wholeheartedly recommend his 3rd.
I've been listening to Schuman's 3rd Symphony for over 50 years, starting with Bernstein's first recording on a Columbia LP borrowed from the library. With the unfolding intensity of the opening Passacaglia (although it seems more like a fugato, don't you think?), I was instantly hooked. Memorable highlights for me include the powerful first climax of the Fugue on four virtuosic trumpets; the serene Chorale on divided violas and cellos with solo trumpet and flute; the exciting Toccata finale-kicked off by a bass clarinet solo-with divisi strings like an accelerating locomotive, fat eight-note pizzicato chords and the breathless coda punctuated by snare drum rimshots.
Schuman's 3rd Symphony is a unique achievement and it gets my vote for “The Great American Symphony.”
Speaking of GAS, Dave-is that a concept you would be interested in developing as a series?
Thanks for this. I don't know about Gilbert and Sullivan. We'll see.
Another great series David. IF you haven’t alreaydone him can I suggest Kabelač. I chanced upon his 8th symphony on a Czech radio station and bought his complete cycle on Supraphon.
No. Valen is a fine composer. Not all gray, not all grim, not that circumscribed emotionally if you can "get" it, which I do. Just looking at his scores is a satisfying experience. And no need to say that that experience beats listening to him as that would be a cheap shot.
Have always liked symphonies 3,4,5, and 6. The others I've heard not so much. A critic once sayd of the 6th "It pleads its case from the footlights." Also like Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra.
Love this series. After diligently collecting much of Lutoslawski and Schuman's orchestral stuff over the years, I have to acknowledge that with the exception of Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra and Polish Christmas Carols, Schuman's 3rd Symphony and V.C., they seldom make it off my shelves. I agree, much of Schuman sounds formulaic and mechanical. With Lutoslawski it's his style changes that throw me off. Mind you, Stravinsky used to give me the same problem but no longer. Valen's new to me. The excerpt you played sounds exactly like the Schoenberg pastiche in Hoffnung's 'Metamorphosis on Bedtime Themes'. I wonder who was taking off whom.
For me Schuman is hot and cold. Some of his symphonies bore me to death. But two of my favorite are his Third and Sixth.
Great talk, like always.
I would like to submit two composers for this serie: Aho and Vasks. I really like their music. It is accessible, but probably still quite tough for most listeners... And it would be great to hear about other works from both, in particular Vasks (concertos, choral music, etc.).
The Schuman clip reminded me that Gerry Schwarz did some good things in Seattle, and in particular really upped the brass section of the orchestra. Lutoslawski is one of my favorites, I fell in love instantly with the piano concerto (lush, nocturnal at times and exciting); I dove right into his other works. Lutoslawski's execution of aleatoric passages seems very natural and unforced even though his scores are highly notated and clearly meticulously conceived. Additionally as you alluded to David, certainly his later works always have endings that make complete sense in the context of the work and are incredibly satisfying. Please consider doing a talk about his concerti and other works!
Lutoslawski is the greatest 20th Century composer I have ever come across. His music ought to be more frequently performed.
You need to come across more composers! I mean, seriously, comments like this are meaningless.
Really, that's subjective. What about Penderecki, Shostakovich, Arnold, Bax, Lloyd, plus living composers, John Adams and the brilliant Kalevi Aho. That's just for starters. He was brilliant yes but the very best, that's too big a statement.
@@stuartraybould2574 havent really gotten into Penderecki... Shostakovich is great sometimes. Bax, never really got into his music. John Adams... Same thing never could get into him. Some of my favorite 20th-century composers are Ligeti, Rautavaara, Bibalo, Arapov... I guess i like atonality, 12tone if they can sort of sound Romantic, stir my passion that way, if you get my drift
@@jdiwkall I love Rautavaara too. If you like him you're going to love Kalevi Aho, he studied under Rautavaara. First four symphonies have a feel of Shostakovich and Rautavaara having a baby, after that though he really as his own voice. All his music is fantastic. Seidi and Symphony 5 are amazing. His Oboe and Orchestra Concerto is wonderful, very Arabic influence. Also his Symphony 15 cd on bis is world music, very interesting. Symphonic Dances and Symphony 10,very exciting. I'd start with Symphony 4,very beautiful but all his music is wonderful and bis cds sound amazing, a few are sacd in 5.0, symphony 12 is especially great in 5.0 but stereo layer is equally excellent.
Penderecki, my favourites apart from the brilliant symphonies are Credo, Magnificant and piano concertos but it's all great.
Oh, if you like Ligeti, give John Adams Scheherazade a go, it might change your mind about him.
Great series.
Valen, yeah, darkly appealing. Relentless, as you say. A bit filmy, actually. Id never heard of him so many thanks. Ive queued the symphonies in RUclips Music...
Postludium 1 is a good door to discover Lutoslawski
Orchestral short piece
Lutoslawski, every time, not the others, for me, at any rate.
Well, Schuman... My first encounter with him was live in a Bernstein-NYP-concert with US-composers only, featuring Gershwin („Rhapsody“), Copland („Lincoln“), Schuman‘s 3rd, Harris‘ 3rd, „Candide“-Ouverture and Ives‘ „Question“, the last two being a death sentence for the rest. But the Schuman was the one I remembered the worst. Later, I bought some of his symphonies and other stuff, but nothing was especially gripping; I remember a Viola concerto with women‘s choir, the „New England Tryptich“ and the opera „The Mighty Casey“, but very seldom I come home thinking „now it‘s time for having fun with Schuman“.
Valen was THE composer, when I was in Norway with Antonio Bibalo. My problem with Valen is that he writes 4-voice-counterpoint all the time, avoiding color like death. There are a few impressive short works, but the symphonies and the Violin Concerto are tiresome.
The best of the three is Lutoslawski, in my opinion, and I think that he isn‘t so hard to listen to. There is always something one can follow, and there’s a tension, which makes his music always so gripping.
My suggestions for tough symphonists: Egon Wellesz, Peter Mennin (very interesting development, I guess) and Havergal Brian, the thorniest tonal music I know.
Great talk, as always - thanks for all the inspiration!
wow, echoes of Prokofiev 3rd in that Lutoslawski 3rd. My first experience with Lutoslawski was being obligated to play the Concerto for Orchestra which I found too logical and symmetrical to be interesting. It took me a while to get into his other much much much more adventurous symphonic pieces( some smaller ones, not symphonies):-)
Thanks, Dave! I have the Naxos Schuman box and was determined to find it interesting as it is a major tranche of Americana. But yes, must admit don’t listen much.
Lutoslawski though, oh boy. Yes, that ending of Symphony nr 3 is just marvellous and this finally emerged in the 1980s! Is it referencing Beethoven 5? No matter really maybe. But it has the bell type sounds of Slavic music and everything. Worth him taking 10 years to write in my view. Now we need a bit more of that in the concert hall…
“I think that Schuman tried too hard as a symphonist.”
Spot-on. Something similar could be said for Robert Simpson in Britain. Big, rather gaseous works that perhaps offer intellectual stimulation but are difficult to love on a visceral level.
Dave’s opinion of W. Schuman’s symphonies very much resembles my opinion of Robert Simpson’s. Cold, cerebral music which a friend of mine has accurately described as “Nielsen without the tunes”.
Schuman is a bit of a struggle, I concur, and his string sections often feel like they're bogged down in mud or something. As for Simpson, his 6th and 9th are personal favourites. The 1st movement of the 6th is particularly visceral. But a lot of his music does sound rather gaseous. Still, to these ears Simpson is the better composer. I much prefer listening to musical nebulas than to tedious and pointless struggles;
What you say about symphonies it's also true with opera: the golden age is not the 19th century or the Baroque period, but the first half of the 20th century.
Very interesting comment in terms of how opera really got “serious”
I actually find Valen's style somewhat interesting, but somehow the music has always made a bit stagnant impression. Despite the fact that his symphonies are short, I got bored because the music didn't seem to be going anywhere. But I'm looking forward to the next episodes of this series. There is an abundance of tough symphonists out there, like Penderecki or Schnittke for example. Not to mention Galina Ustvolskaya, who seems to have become something of a soup of the day -composer (at least for some). Or what about Joonas Kokkonen? I noticed that you found the first two of his four symphonies a bit too austere (or even grim), but numbers 3 & 4 considerably more appealing.
Penderecki has been covered already.
Valen and Lutoslawski put me in mind of another tough symphonist, Ib Nørholm, although recordings of his music aren't too easy to find. I'd be interested to know Dave's take on him.
I honestly don't know him well enough to judge. I've heard a few things and they didn't make a strong enough impression to motivate me to spend more time with him, but that doesn't mean anything.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, Dave!
Great discussion! I could never stand Schuman’s symphonies-so dry and academic. I tried to like his Third Symphony in a Bernstein recording, but it in no way compared to Harris or even Copland in their thirds. I have Schwarz’s disc with the the New England Triptych and Ives Variations and find the couplings of the Fifth Symphony and Judith boring. I don’t know Valen at all, but will have to become acquainted with his music. Now to Lutoslawski, probably my favorite symphonist of the late 20th century. I love his symphonies, but am still coming to terms with the difficult Second. Interesting that the Berlin Phil recently performed the First Symphony which is available on their Digital Concert Hall. That work reminds me not only of Bartok and Stravinsky but also of Roussel in its neo-classicism. There is a lot of choice now on CD for Lutoslawski. Lintu on Ondine is unbeatable, but Wit is also terrific. I still like Salonen a lot for the Fourth that was dedicated to him and the LAPO and was fortunate to see/hear them in concert when they came to the Kennedy Center years ago.
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I think Bruckner was the first of the tough symphonists (sorry for digressing) I hope you do an article on him, if you already haven't..
There's an entire playlist: containing 31 videos on my channel home page. Have at it!
I find the Valen less interesting, mostly due to it's kind of depressive for me, and I need more motion, more grip, things that the other two composers do offer.
You're not alone!
I had the Naxos Schuman symphony box a number of years ago, then donated it after realizing I’d never listen through it again. Muti performed the Schuman 9 with Chicago 4 or 5 years ago. Muti and the CSO wrung every ounce of interesting material they could put of the piece, and I still found it fairly forgettable.
My picks for Lutoslawski's 1st would be either Hannu Lintu or Salonen. Avoid Gardner - much too fast in the 1st movement!
Great discussion! I could never stand Schuman’s symphonies-so dry and boring, as you have indicated. The best word for them is “academic.” I tried to like his Third Symphony in one of Bernstein’s recordings, but it in no way compared to Harris or Copland in their similarly numbered works. I have Schwarz’s disc with the New England Triptych and Ives Variations, the only pieces I listen to and find both couplings of Judith and the Fifth Symphony dry as dust! I don’t know Valen at all, but will have to become familiar with him. Now to Lutoslawski, my favorite symphonist of the late 20th century. I love his symphonies, but am still coming to terms with the gnarly Second. Interesting that the Berlin Phil recently performed the First Symphony and may be viewed on their Digital Concert Hall. It reminds me not just of Bartok and Stravinsky, but also Roussel. There is a lot of choice on disc now for Lutoslawski. Lintu on Ondine is unbeatable in all four with the best sound, but Wit is also terrific. I still like Salonen a lot for the Fourth that was composed for him and the LAPO and was fortunate to see/hear them do it in concert when they came to the Kennedy Center years ago.
Quite agree about Wm. Schumann... I don't even like the 3rd, which is far and away his most popular and listenable in the genre.
Valen I had never heard of. I thought the bit you played was slightly better than the buildup you gave, but not enough that I want to go exploring.
Lutoslawski is among the 20th century's greatest composers. I particularly adore the Concerto for Orchestra.
The thing is, some composers are better when they're gnarlier, and some even manage to pull off "grisaille" effectively. But those are rare cases.
Great series!