This is HEAVEN: actual samples from little known musical idiom and so very eloquently explained. I would love more videos of this ‘tough’ kind. There will be a day I have seen all of your reviews, seriously.
Great talk! I guess that Gerhard is the hardest of the three, but he is convincing in his style. A short anecdote to Penderecki: He was such a great and warm person. Many years ago, I had a talk with him, it was the time, when he conducted Orffs "Carmina burana", and explained to me, what a great composer Orff was and how much he learned from him. Well, many years later I talked with Thomas Rösch, an Orff-specialist, about Orff, and Rösch told me, how intersted Orff was in Penderecki, especially in the earlier works and that he always said, how much he learned from him. In my opinion, Penderecki managed that even his earlier sound-objects are expressive in their own way. "Threnos" is completely unique as a sound-monument. And works like the St. Luke Passion, the "Devils of Loudun" or "Utrenja", which is especially dear to me, prove that the musical material says nothing about the expressivety of a work. The later works have a dark warmth and greatness an rank about the best works of their time. Tippett is a strange case for me: I adore "The Midsummer Marriage", but in the pure instrumental music, I prefer the later works, especially the 3rd and 4th symphony, the "Rose Lake" and that wonderful Triple Concerto. I think that the 4th symphony is one of the easiest non-tonal works to listen to, because the work has motives one can hold in mind, f.e. the dark brass at the beginning, then the fast jazzy clarinets a.s.o. And, yes, he, too, was a fine and witty person.
I have the Bamert/Gerhard set as well as a Spanish set on a label I can't remember, and the Decca (Davis and Solti) set of the Tippett. However the work that almost blew my mind was the Penderecki "The Seven Gates of Jerusalem" with that amazing choral harmony near the beginning, so thank you, David, for playing that to us. That is definitely on my shopping list.
Thank you for covering all three, but especially Roberto Gerhard, one of my favorite composers. I think his Fourth Symphony ("New York") is his masterpiece, but as you say, all of his work is 'rewarding'. It's so great to hear someone discuss him
@@robkeeleycomposer My first was Symphony 1, on the old Seraphim LP, conducted by Dorati. Such a fascinating composer. I love the works for chamber ensemble too
"A Child of Our Time" was my click-bait introduction to Tippett. I was a starving student who could not justify buying new LPs, so I bought all of his Symphonies at used record stores. One of the messages of this "tough composers" series is that you don't know what you are missing until you actually hear some of it. When I was a graduate student at UC Berkeley, Calvin Simmons broadcast performances with the Oakland Symphony and a public radio classical music host playing recordings championed Tippett, and it was all to my benefit. As for Penderecki, I imprinted on the budget LP recording of the St. Luke Passion, scary stuff and, I think a more relevant contrast to his Jerusalem symphony. Thanks for giving these composers more exposure.
Thanks to you, I’m learning to listen with fresh ears and an open mind to music I’ve formerly resisted. Tippett and Gerhard are prime examples. Now, on to Penderecki…
@@DavesClassicalGuide And this is precisely why I was saying earlier that throwing a little (just a little) more challenging music that you like into the mix wouldn't hurt. I've experienced the same thing as William Moreing thanks to you! Another thing you should be proud of! And I will leave it at that.
Being two years ago no one would read this, but my only live experience with a Gerard piece was at the Kennedy Center with Dorati conducting Gerhatd`s treatment of Camus’ “The Plague”. By the end of the piece one third of the audience stood and clapped in ovation mode, one third had already left the concert hall, and the last third sat in total, stunned silence. I’ll never forget it. “Orahhhhhhhn…..”. I came hear looking for Penderecki symphony suggestions. Was not disappointed.
Speaking of Tippett I think there is a need for a discussion about 'A child of our time'. I belive it's such a wonderfull choral work that really needs attention!!
I've never been able to get into Tippett, but both Gerhard and Penderecki are absolute favorites, regardless of the style they're using at the time. First Gerhard I ever heard was the acoustic/electronic 3rd, 'Collage', on Angel... which I took out of the county library. I own all the Chandos Gerhard discs. Must-own listening and entirely too underrated. Among all my Penderecki albums is one titled "Penderecki Gala", a hilarious oxymoron if there ever was one. And, of course, the reason his more avant stuff works so well is because he ALWAYS wanted to be expressive, to be serious, to project deep meaning through his music, hence that Anton Webern-meets-Carl Stalling opening to the First Symphony. No Cagean abolition of meaning for him!
I’m incredibly jealous that you got to hear Penderecki 7 live - the Seven Gates of Jerusalem is an absolutely stunner, one of my favorite choral symphonies. The Naxos (perhaps only?) recording is a delight and a treasure. “The Korean” No. 5 is wonderful too. By all accounts, Penderecki was a great guy as well, a fine composer and conductor who mentored Kenneth Woods of the English Symphony Orchestra and Colorado MahlerFest, among many other bright disciples.
I well remember Penderecki guest conducting the Seattle Symphony. He was a left handed conductor, by the way, which can be a bit confusing to an orchestra, a mirror image of what they are used to. But you've heard of people who can light up a room upon just entering it? Penderecki was like that only it was a 2500 seat concert hall.
So funny! I've been listening to Gerhard's Second lately--with great care and repeatedly. I've done the same for the Third and Fourth and will eventually get to the First. They are wonderful and more wonderful as I listen more and more. When I was listening to the Fourth, I compared it to Tippett's Fourth which I had heard years ago in Boston in concert. It was amazing how transparently easy the language of the Tippett was compared to the Gerhard, though both were great. Thanks for this one! Maybe sometime you could to a video on single symphony composers like Martin, Bloch (sort of), and Kodaly. Thanks again!
Another suggestion is Federico Ibarra, a Mexican composers. The commission for his first symphony, required it to be under ten minutes and was to mark the bicentenary of Mozart's death in 1791.
It felt more like a musical joke than a statement on struggle when the quote from Beethoven s 9th popped its head.Looking forward to taking a more careful look. Thanks for the presentation. Great choices.
I think Tippett is contrasting the optimism of the "Ode to Joy" with the events of the twentieth century. In addition, he says if God doesn't (or cannot) answer our prayers it's up to us to show our compassion.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I attended a concert performance of King Priam with a female friend and when she heard "Yes, Prince Hector will want his bath the moment he comes from fighting" she had problems suppressing laughter.
Bring on the toughness! Re Gerhard: his Concerto for Orchestra is great too. Re Penderecki's 1st Symphony: The"factory" opening of Penderecki's 1st, with its whip, vibraslap, anvil, etc., has always mesmerized me. Re Tippett: The brass chord that opens the 3rd Symphony is one of those miracles in music--somehow, drawing from the same 12 notes available to everybody else, a composer structures a chord that sounds like nothing else in music. (Dutilleux's chords illustrate this frequently and stunningly.)
Lovely that you give a shout out for Gerhard - a magnificent composer. If I may, I'd have given a taste of no 1, which was admired by Stravinsky. Hearing the opening of Penderecki 1 reminded me of the 'windmill' percussion towards the end of Gerhard 4 - a memory of sunny (pre-Franco?) Spain from a chilly Cambridge, maybe?
Normally I cannot stand modern classical music, but there is something about Gerhard that wants me to throw the music in the bin but keep on listening..his music pulls me apart
Thanks Dave, very thought-provoking. I’m so jealous you got to have lunch with Tippett, but even having a fly on the wall listen to what on earth you talked about would be fantastic :) They are all “political” composers in different ways, and sometimes I wonder where this kind of energy has gone. I mean here in the UK Tippett was lambasted for trying to be politically “trendy” but as you say nowadays he’s not politically “trendy” enough! It’s a shame because there is much musical marvellousness even if these days we cringe at some of the words. You’d hope that “A Child of Our Time”, “The Knot Garden”, “The Ice Break” etc might get done more in the US with some appreciation of how the fumbling he did around various issues was sincere, context dependent, and something most other composers wouldn’t go near. I like the music of various subsequent UK composers (Judith Weir, Birtwistle, MacMillan etc) but they have rather steered clear of this Tippett territory, and I wonder if that’s ultimately a good thing. “King Priam” is another marvellous thing, which is partly conditioned by anti-war politics. I liked that you focused on symphonies 1 and 3, but my guess if that if anyone wanted to hear one Tippett symphony, it’d be the second one, which brings together various aspects of his evolving style. That opening that had a disasterous premiere, well, people can p,at it now, and it really puts you on notice you are in for quite an experience! All best
@@DavesClassicalGuide oh and also, listening to the slow movement of Symphony 2 maybe we see here a man who really did learn from Holst (who you have been talking about lately). I expect Tippett studied Holst backwards back in the day. Apart from any strange moral-religious elements there is that “spaceyness “
@@DavesClassicalGuide How many Bloody Marys did he drink during your chat? He was a rather keen on the things, as was his partner at the time, Karl Hawker!
The influence of Sibelius in Gerhard's Pendrell Symphony produces a curious effect amidst all those Spanishy sounds. He's a composer you don't necessarily have to 'understand', just listen to him. Somebody once described his big works as 'throwing the orchestra against the wall'. Thrilling stuff. I've tried hard with Tippett but reached the conclusion that the only work I like as a whole is the triple concerto. For the rest, there are parts that appeal alongside cringeworthy sections, word-setting particularly. Given the huge amount of brilliant poetry, in all languages, out there, some of the texts chosen by composers (often their own or those of friends) make you shake your head.
To complement the Tippett 3rd, I recommend listening to the original Bessie Smith/Louis Armstrong sides (e.g., the all-time greatest "St. Louis Blues") that inspired Tippett's soprano & fluegelhorn dialogue. As for Tippett's words, I think they work better in the original Klingon. At least they couldn't work worse.
I don't think it's so much that Tippett was "into the number 4" so much as that he tended to write things in a sort of rotation where he'd do an opera, a symphony, a piano sonata etc and then do another cycle of everything. The reason there's four of things is he died slightly into round five.
I really love so much of Tippett up through and including King Priam but after that he leaves me behind. I was regifted A Mask of Time and wound up regifting it myself. For all I know its still being regifted like the the proverbial holiday fruitcake. Ah, but Midsummer Marriage. Yes. A masterpiece. The libretto is balmy but the music makes it all worthwhile. Yet the two recordings and live performances I know all make significant cuts, even in the ritual dances, and I resent it. I want to hear everything.
Hello Mr Bailey I still have my fruitcake so I may well agree with you when I get the chance to listen to it again. But this inspired me to listen again to bits of the operas, and really struck by how Wagnerian some of it sounds. This is really interesting as Britten doesn’t sound like Wagner, no doubt deliberately, but Tippett doesn’t care! He seems to have had less of an allergy to the 19th century. Must try and find out more.
@@murraylow4523 It's often struck me that Britten in Grimes and Budd was influenced by Strauss, the specific Strauss of Ekektra, esp in treatment of writing for lower brass, harmonically as well.
@@bbailey7818 yes yes but the most important influence there as I understand it was Berg’s “Wozzeck” because of the way it combined all those sounds with a rather cold musical structure, hence the passacaglias etc. I think Dave is keeping works like that in reserve, understandably. I don’t think Tippett sounds like R Strauss actually, I was thinking that passages in “the Midsummer Marriage” or “King Priam” sound exactly, and not in a bad way, like “Lohengrin” or early bits of the Ring cycle. So I’m wondering if Michael was trying to get back to a time before R Strauss
@@murraylow4523 No, I can't hear Straussian influence in Tippett either, Just some Britten. Britten was certainly influenced by Wozzeck though he later seems to have created his own brand of serialism--not that Wozzeck is serialist--in a tonal context in Turn of the Screw, an absolute masterpiece. And to think it, Midsummer, and Walton's Troilus all came within months of each other!
I remember hearing a documentary about Gerhard on Radio3 many years ago. It seems his favourite saying was "When you write an angry letter, walk slowly to the post-box." How's THAT as a motto re posting comments on-line?
Thank you for this! I didn't know any Gerhard before. I also met and had lunch with Penderecki, a very warm human being. Speaking of Polish composers, would you consider doing a series on Lutoslawski?
I recall listening (quite a bit) to Penderecki's Kosmogonia when I was at school; a work very much in his earlier style, and then there's the massive Eflat major chord around 7 minutes in, it is amazing and quite shocking. I absolutely love this work, and perhaps that chord was a foreshadowing of things to come?
It’s actually very interesting - that chord is sung on the word “Sol” from the Latin sentence “the centre of the Solar System holds the Sun”, or something similar. So similarly, Penderecki put the Sun in the middle of the piece.
Glad to see the "tough symphonists" series making a come back. I thougt you were mostly done with releasing videos on tough and challenging music, so that's a nice surprise. One of those videos popping up on a yt page was how I got wind of your channel, by the way.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Of course, and I wouldn't want you to. But a little more challenging and/or contemporary stuff thrown into the mix wouldn't hurt either. Don't forget the game on y-t is rigged by an a-i at the service of a technocratic propaganda machine, and promoting Haydn to the masses isn't exactly a top priority on its agenda either (do you really think it's a coincidence that the co-founder of netflix is a relative of E.Bernays?). To most people even a piano trio by Mendelssohn is challenging nowadays. The human senses are manipulated in such a way as to make a lot of people deaf, dumb and blind. Great music does the opposite
@@davidbo8400 Maybe, but I'm pretty happy with the mix. I've got three playlists on my home page devoted to contemporary music (73 videos), neglected composers and works (205 videos) and "challenging" music (47 videos). Of course, you could say that ALL classical music is "neglected," and if, as you say, a Mendelssohn trio is a push, then you sort of defeat your own argument for more difficult stuff. I'm not doing this out of some altruistic desire to promote music. I do it because the music gives me pleasure--all of it, equally--and I want to share that with others and try to convince them of its value as entertainment. I don't think you'll find a wider selection of stuff presented on YT, and I'm proud of that. Of course I could do "more" of this or that, but I'm only one person and we all have our limitations.
@@DavesClassicalGuide i think it's a bloody great channel, if you ask me, and so glad to be a subscriber! I'm sticking with you, my friend. What you're doing is wonderful. Essential even! As for Mendelssohn's piano trios, they're not a push for me and for most people on your channel. I love Mendelssohn's music so much! Apart from that, I agree with all your arguments. You're a 10/10 critic! Take care P.S.: and a whole lotta fun to listen to!
Terrific video. Many thanks. You are correct about Tippett -a lovely bloke who I admired immensely. Any chance of doing something on Benjamin Frankl's symphonies?
How about Robert Simpson? I think his symphonies are really got. A cycle of his eleven symphonies is available on Hyperion, all but one conducted by Vernon Handley. On the CD of the ninth, there is a talk by Robert Simpson himself, about the creative process of writing his ninth symphony.
One of the silliest talks I've ever heard by anyone. "Up a fifth, then another, then another, then another, then another, then another, then another..."
The Midsummer Marriage was my introduction to the music of Michael Tippett. However, nobody as far as I know has mentioned a view I have always had that Jenifer and Mark/Bella and Jack and Bella , actually represent different characteristic of the same couple. They never appear on stage at the same time and in Act I, Jennifer says she does not want to get married, while in Act II, Bella says "Ah, that's passed/past and gone. We're going to marry.." Is this so obvious to everyone that I doesn't need to be mention, or am I simple mistaken?
You are mistaken. The model for this opera is The Magic Flute. Mark/Jennifer=Tamino/Pamina, while Jack/Bella=Pappageno/Pappagena. No one suggests that in the Mozart they are different aspects of the same couple. They are contrasting couples.
Interest in Tippett was cisuderabke when he was alive but that interest ceased when he died. He suddenly went from being in fashion to being out of fashion. After a composer dies the scope for interviews certainly reduces but the music doesnt change. It is just as good as before. I need to get to kniw more Penderecki. He is also good.
@@murraylow4523 quite alot of music from the 1960s onwards seemed to sound like that. That was what was chisen to he played. There is a place for that sort of music but there seened to be too kuch of it. I used to listen to lots of it when i lived in London. These days there us mire neo-tobal music. There is room for both sorts of style of music. Time for me listen to Gerhard. There is another work based on a Lorca poem. Udo Zimmermann's Sinfonia come una Grande Lamento. If the level of dissonance varies that helps.
Chandos and Naxos have both done us a great service: Lot's of otherwise under-recorded music and musicians presented in good sound.
The conductors should take some of the credit too, having chosen something different for a change
This is HEAVEN: actual samples from little known musical idiom and so very eloquently explained. I would love more videos of this ‘tough’ kind. There will be a day I have seen all of your reviews, seriously.
Great talk!
I guess that Gerhard is the hardest of the three, but he is convincing in his style.
A short anecdote to Penderecki: He was such a great and warm person. Many years ago, I had a talk with him, it was the time, when he conducted Orffs "Carmina burana", and explained to me, what a great composer Orff was and how much he learned from him. Well, many years later I talked with Thomas Rösch, an Orff-specialist, about Orff, and Rösch told me, how intersted Orff was in Penderecki, especially in the earlier works and that he always said, how much he learned from him.
In my opinion, Penderecki managed that even his earlier sound-objects are expressive in their own way. "Threnos" is completely unique as a sound-monument. And works like the St. Luke Passion, the "Devils of Loudun" or "Utrenja", which is especially dear to me, prove that the musical material says nothing about the expressivety of a work. The later works have a dark warmth and greatness an rank about the best works of their time.
Tippett is a strange case for me: I adore "The Midsummer Marriage", but in the pure instrumental music, I prefer the later works, especially the 3rd and 4th symphony, the "Rose Lake" and that wonderful Triple Concerto. I think that the 4th symphony is one of the easiest non-tonal works to listen to, because the work has motives one can hold in mind, f.e. the dark brass at the beginning, then the fast jazzy clarinets a.s.o. And, yes, he, too, was a fine and witty person.
I have the Bamert/Gerhard set as well as a Spanish set on a label I can't remember, and the Decca (Davis and Solti) set of the Tippett. However the work that almost blew my mind was the Penderecki "The Seven Gates of Jerusalem" with that amazing choral harmony near the beginning, so thank you, David, for playing that to us. That is definitely on my shopping list.
Thank you for covering all three, but especially Roberto Gerhard, one of my favorite composers. I think his Fourth Symphony ("New York") is his masterpiece, but as you say, all of his work is 'rewarding'. It's so great to hear someone discuss him
It was the first piece of Gerhard's I heard (in the Colin Davis recording) and I become a Gerhard addict for life.
@@robkeeleycomposer My first was Symphony 1, on the old Seraphim LP, conducted by Dorati. Such a fascinating composer. I love the works for chamber ensemble too
@@mackjay1777 Same here, still have that lp. Like Rob Keeley, once I heard Gerhard I was hooked for life.
@@johns9624 So great to find other fans of Gerhard.
@@robkeeleycomposer Have you heard the LIVE Davis recording that's on RUclips? It may be even better than the commercial reliease, which is fantastic
"A Child of Our Time" was my click-bait introduction to Tippett. I was a starving student who could not justify buying new LPs, so I bought all of his Symphonies at used record stores. One of the messages of this "tough composers" series is that you don't know what you are missing until you actually hear some of it. When I was a graduate student at UC Berkeley, Calvin Simmons broadcast performances with the Oakland Symphony and a public radio classical music host playing recordings championed Tippett, and it was all to my benefit. As for Penderecki, I imprinted on the budget LP recording of the St. Luke Passion, scary stuff and, I think a more relevant contrast to his Jerusalem symphony. Thanks for giving these composers more exposure.
Thanks to you, I’m learning to listen with fresh ears and an open mind to music I’ve formerly resisted. Tippett and Gerhard are prime examples. Now, on to Penderecki…
Wonderful!
@@DavesClassicalGuide And this is precisely why I was saying earlier that throwing a little (just a little) more challenging music that you like into the mix wouldn't hurt. I've experienced the same thing as William Moreing thanks to you! Another thing you should be proud of! And I will leave it at that.
Being two years ago no one would read this, but my only live experience with a Gerard piece was at the Kennedy Center with Dorati conducting Gerhatd`s treatment of Camus’ “The Plague”. By the end of the piece one third of the audience stood and clapped in ovation mode, one third had already left the concert hall, and the last third sat in total, stunned silence. I’ll never forget it. “Orahhhhhhhn…..”. I came hear looking for Penderecki symphony suggestions. Was not disappointed.
The first thing that popped into my head when you played the opening of "Seven Gates of Jerusalem" was "O Fortuna." LOL
Penderecki admired Orff, and vice-versa.
Speaking of Tippett I think there is a need for a discussion about 'A child of our time'. I belive it's such a wonderfull choral work that really needs attention!!
I've never been able to get into Tippett, but both Gerhard and Penderecki are absolute favorites, regardless of the style they're using at the time. First Gerhard I ever heard was the acoustic/electronic 3rd, 'Collage', on Angel... which I took out of the county library. I own all the Chandos Gerhard discs. Must-own listening and entirely too underrated. Among all my Penderecki albums is one titled "Penderecki Gala", a hilarious oxymoron if there ever was one. And, of course, the reason his more avant stuff works so well is because he ALWAYS wanted to be expressive, to be serious, to project deep meaning through his music, hence that Anton Webern-meets-Carl Stalling opening to the First Symphony. No Cagean abolition of meaning for him!
I’m incredibly jealous that you got to hear Penderecki 7 live - the Seven Gates of Jerusalem is an absolutely stunner, one of my favorite choral symphonies. The Naxos (perhaps only?) recording is a delight and a treasure. “The Korean” No. 5 is wonderful too. By all accounts, Penderecki was a great guy as well, a fine composer and conductor who mentored Kenneth Woods of the English Symphony Orchestra and Colorado MahlerFest, among many other bright disciples.
There is another fine version on Dux.
@@DavesClassicalGuide oooooh, goodie gumdrops! I’ll have to give it a listen soon.
I well remember Penderecki guest conducting the Seattle Symphony. He was a left handed conductor, by the way, which can be a bit confusing to an orchestra, a mirror image of what they are used to. But you've heard of people who can light up a room upon just entering it? Penderecki was like that only it was a 2500 seat concert hall.
So funny! I've been listening to Gerhard's Second lately--with great care and repeatedly. I've done the same for the Third and Fourth and will eventually get to the First. They are wonderful and more wonderful as I listen more and more.
When I was listening to the Fourth, I compared it to Tippett's Fourth which I had heard years ago in Boston in concert. It was amazing how transparently easy the language of the Tippett was compared to the Gerhard, though both were great.
Thanks for this one!
Maybe sometime you could to a video on single symphony composers like Martin, Bloch (sort of), and Kodaly. Thanks again!
Another suggestion is Federico Ibarra, a Mexican composers. The commission for his first symphony, required it to be under ten minutes and was to mark the bicentenary of Mozart's death in 1791.
I truly enjoyed this video and thank you Dave and Chandos. 💎♾️🎶👂👍🙏🏼💯🫡
Thanks Dave for turning me on to Garhard!
It felt more like a musical joke than a statement on struggle when the quote from Beethoven s 9th popped its head.Looking forward to taking a more careful look. Thanks for the presentation. Great choices.
Yes, I agree with you. Tippett could be unintentionally funny--he was so quirky sometimes. And then there's the text...Oy!
I think Tippett is contrasting the optimism of the "Ode to Joy" with the events of the twentieth century. In addition, he says if God doesn't (or cannot) answer our prayers it's up to us to show our compassion.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I attended a concert performance of King Priam with a female friend and when she heard "Yes, Prince Hector will want his bath the moment he comes from fighting" she had problems suppressing laughter.
Bring on the toughness! Re Gerhard: his Concerto for Orchestra is great too. Re Penderecki's 1st Symphony: The"factory" opening of Penderecki's 1st, with its whip, vibraslap, anvil, etc., has always mesmerized me. Re Tippett: The brass chord that opens the 3rd Symphony is one of those miracles in music--somehow, drawing from the same 12 notes available to everybody else, a composer structures a chord that sounds like nothing else in music. (Dutilleux's chords illustrate this frequently and stunningly.)
Lovely that you give a shout out for Gerhard - a magnificent composer. If I may, I'd have given a taste of no 1, which was admired by Stravinsky. Hearing the opening of Penderecki 1 reminded me of the 'windmill' percussion towards the end of Gerhard 4 - a memory of sunny (pre-Franco?) Spain from a chilly Cambridge, maybe?
Normally I cannot stand modern classical music, but there is something about Gerhard that wants me to throw the music in the bin but keep on listening..his music pulls me apart
Thanks Dave, very thought-provoking. I’m so jealous you got to have lunch with Tippett, but even having a fly on the wall listen to what on earth you talked about would be fantastic :)
They are all “political” composers in different ways, and sometimes I wonder where this kind of energy has gone. I mean here in the UK Tippett was lambasted for trying to be politically “trendy” but as you say nowadays he’s not politically “trendy” enough! It’s a shame because there is much musical marvellousness even if these days we cringe at some of the words. You’d hope that “A Child of Our Time”, “The Knot Garden”, “The Ice Break” etc might get done more in the US with some appreciation of how the fumbling he did around various issues was sincere, context dependent, and something most other composers wouldn’t go near. I like the music of various subsequent UK composers (Judith Weir, Birtwistle, MacMillan etc) but they have rather steered clear of this Tippett territory, and I wonder if that’s ultimately a good thing. “King Priam” is another marvellous thing, which is partly conditioned by anti-war politics.
I liked that you focused on symphonies 1 and 3, but my guess if that if anyone wanted to hear one Tippett symphony, it’d be the second one, which brings together various aspects of his evolving style. That opening that had a disasterous premiere, well, people can p,at it now, and it really puts you on notice you are in for quite an experience! All best
We talked about cabbage soup recipes, mostly. And a few other things...
Somehow that does not surprise me!
@@DavesClassicalGuide oh and also, listening to the slow movement of Symphony 2 maybe we see here a man who really did learn from Holst (who you have been talking about lately). I expect Tippett studied Holst backwards back in the day. Apart from any strange moral-religious elements there is that “spaceyness “
@@DavesClassicalGuide How many Bloody Marys did he drink during your chat? He was a rather keen on the things, as was his partner at the time, Karl Hawker!
@@bannan61 good for them!
Marvellous video I bought the Penderecki box for 11 pounds.
It’s got some nice words from your good self at the back as I’m sure you know.
Thanks. I didn't know (or remember).
The influence of Sibelius in Gerhard's Pendrell Symphony produces a curious effect amidst all those Spanishy sounds. He's a composer you don't necessarily have to 'understand', just listen to him. Somebody once described his big works as 'throwing the orchestra against the wall'. Thrilling stuff.
I've tried hard with Tippett but reached the conclusion that the only work I like as a whole is the triple concerto. For the rest, there are parts that appeal alongside cringeworthy sections, word-setting particularly. Given the huge amount of brilliant poetry, in all languages, out there, some of the texts chosen by composers (often their own or those of friends) make you shake your head.
Can't wait for the next instalment!
I'm honoured to hear that ministress of culture of my country provided such a wonderful time for your mother and your friend.
She was a character!
Congrats. Dave on 12K subscribers--way to go!!
Thank you.
To complement the Tippett 3rd, I recommend listening to the original Bessie Smith/Louis Armstrong sides (e.g., the all-time greatest "St. Louis Blues") that inspired Tippett's soprano & fluegelhorn dialogue. As for Tippett's words, I think they work better in the original Klingon. At least they couldn't work worse.
Hey Dave!
Congratulations on 12K!!
Thank you!
Great vid! Do you reckon Per Nørgård is worth a shout in this series? His 3rd symphony is a favourite as you probably know.
Is there a video about the Henze DG boxset ?
I don't think it's so much that Tippett was "into the number 4" so much as that he tended to write things in a sort of rotation where he'd do an opera, a symphony, a piano sonata etc and then do another cycle of everything. The reason there's four of things is he died slightly into round five.
I like serial music when done right. I like its economy.
I really love so much of Tippett up through and including King Priam but after that he leaves me behind. I was regifted A Mask of Time and wound up regifting it myself. For all I know its still being regifted like the the proverbial holiday fruitcake. Ah, but Midsummer Marriage. Yes. A masterpiece. The libretto is balmy but the music makes it all worthwhile. Yet the two recordings and live performances I know all make significant cuts, even in the ritual dances, and I resent it. I want to hear everything.
Hello Mr Bailey
I still have my fruitcake so I may well agree with you when I get the chance to listen to it again. But this inspired me to listen again to bits of the operas, and really struck by how Wagnerian some of it sounds. This is really interesting as Britten doesn’t sound like Wagner, no doubt deliberately, but Tippett doesn’t care! He seems to have had less of an allergy to the 19th century. Must try and find out more.
Same here!
@@murraylow4523 It's often struck me that Britten in Grimes and Budd was influenced by Strauss, the specific Strauss of Ekektra, esp in treatment of writing for lower brass, harmonically as well.
@@bbailey7818 yes yes but the most important influence there as I understand it was Berg’s “Wozzeck” because of the way it combined all those sounds with a rather cold musical structure, hence the passacaglias etc. I think Dave is keeping works like that in reserve, understandably. I don’t think Tippett sounds like R Strauss actually, I was thinking that passages in “the Midsummer Marriage” or “King Priam” sound exactly, and not in a bad way, like “Lohengrin” or early bits of the Ring cycle. So I’m wondering if Michael was trying to get back to a time before R Strauss
@@murraylow4523 No, I can't hear Straussian influence in Tippett either, Just some Britten. Britten was certainly influenced by Wozzeck though he later seems to have created his own brand of serialism--not that Wozzeck is serialist--in a tonal context in Turn of the Screw, an absolute masterpiece. And to think it, Midsummer, and Walton's Troilus all came within months of each other!
I remember hearing a documentary about Gerhard on Radio3 many years ago. It seems his favourite saying was "When you write an angry letter, walk slowly to the post-box." How's THAT as a motto re posting comments on-line?
Thank you for this! I didn't know any Gerhard before. I also met and had lunch with Penderecki, a very warm human being. Speaking of Polish composers, would you consider doing a series on Lutoslawski?
Sure.
I recall listening (quite a bit) to Penderecki's Kosmogonia when I was at school; a work very much in his earlier style, and then there's the massive Eflat major chord around 7 minutes in, it is amazing and quite shocking. I absolutely love this work, and perhaps that chord was a foreshadowing of things to come?
It’s actually very interesting - that chord is sung on the word “Sol” from the Latin sentence “the centre of the Solar System holds the Sun”, or something similar. So similarly, Penderecki put the Sun in the middle of the piece.
Glad to see the "tough symphonists" series making a come back. I thougt you were mostly done with releasing videos on tough and challenging music, so that's a nice surprise. One of those videos popping up on a yt page was how I got wind of your channel, by the way.
Well, you can't make a career talking about music that no one listens to--unless you were an academic serialist in the 60s, of course.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Of course, and I wouldn't want you to. But a little more challenging and/or contemporary stuff thrown into the mix wouldn't hurt either. Don't forget the game on y-t is rigged by an a-i at the service of a technocratic propaganda machine, and promoting Haydn to the masses isn't exactly a top priority on its agenda either (do you really think it's a coincidence that the co-founder of netflix is a relative of E.Bernays?). To most people even a piano trio by Mendelssohn is challenging nowadays. The human senses are manipulated in such a way as to make a lot of people deaf, dumb and blind. Great music does the opposite
@@davidbo8400 Maybe, but I'm pretty happy with the mix. I've got three playlists on my home page devoted to contemporary music (73 videos), neglected composers and works (205 videos) and "challenging" music (47 videos). Of course, you could say that ALL classical music is "neglected," and if, as you say, a Mendelssohn trio is a push, then you sort of defeat your own argument for more difficult stuff. I'm not doing this out of some altruistic desire to promote music. I do it because the music gives me pleasure--all of it, equally--and I want to share that with others and try to convince them of its value as entertainment. I don't think you'll find a wider selection of stuff presented on YT, and I'm proud of that. Of course I could do "more" of this or that, but I'm only one person and we all have our limitations.
@@DavesClassicalGuide i think it's a bloody great channel, if you ask me, and so glad to be a subscriber! I'm sticking with you, my friend. What you're doing is wonderful. Essential even! As for Mendelssohn's piano trios, they're not a push for me and for most people on your channel. I love Mendelssohn's music so much! Apart from that, I agree with all your arguments. You're a 10/10 critic! Take care P.S.: and a whole lotta fun to listen to!
Terrific video. Many thanks. You are correct about Tippett -a lovely bloke who I admired immensely. Any chance of doing something on Benjamin Frankl's symphonies?
Honestly, I don't think that they're very good.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Each to their own I guess!!
I tell you someone really fine- Alan Rawsthorne. Then there is the whole phenomenon of the post-war Cheltenham Symphony….
How about Robert Simpson? I think his symphonies are really got. A cycle of his eleven symphonies is available on Hyperion, all but one conducted by Vernon Handley. On the CD of the ninth, there is a talk by Robert Simpson himself, about the creative process of writing his ninth symphony.
One of the silliest talks I've ever heard by anyone. "Up a fifth, then another, then another, then another, then another, then another, then another..."
The Midsummer Marriage was my introduction to the music of Michael Tippett. However, nobody as far as I know has mentioned a view I have always had that Jenifer and Mark/Bella and Jack and Bella , actually represent different characteristic of the same couple. They never appear on stage at the same time and in Act I, Jennifer says she does not want to get married, while in Act II, Bella says "Ah, that's passed/past and gone. We're going to marry.."
Is this so obvious to everyone that I doesn't need to be mention, or am I simple mistaken?
You are mistaken. The model for this opera is The Magic Flute. Mark/Jennifer=Tamino/Pamina, while Jack/Bella=Pappageno/Pappagena. No one suggests that in the Mozart they are different aspects of the same couple. They are contrasting couples.
Interest in Tippett was cisuderabke when he was alive but that interest ceased when he died. He suddenly went from being in fashion to being out of fashion. After a composer dies the scope for interviews certainly reduces but the music doesnt change. It is just as good as before.
I need to get to kniw more Penderecki. He is also good.
There's heaps music like Gerhard's 4th Symphony. Most wrote like that.
But not everyone did it as well...
I’m not sure most did, actually- who do you mean? Most recent classical music you actually get to hear is neo-tonal (by recent I mean since the 1990s)
@@murraylow4523 quite alot of music from the 1960s onwards seemed to sound like that. That was what was chisen to he played. There is a place for that sort of music but there seened to be too kuch of it. I used to listen to lots of it when i lived in London.
These days there us mire neo-tobal music. There is room for both sorts of style of music. Time for me listen to Gerhard.
There is another work based on a Lorca poem. Udo Zimmermann's Sinfonia come una Grande Lamento.
If the level of dissonance varies that helps.