Verbal communication is not unique to humans it's found all throughout the animal kingdom most animals that aren't capable of speaking human languages however African greys have been shown to both understand and have shown a capacity to (relatively to other animals excluding humans) intelligently speak English and other languages on a simplistic level by our standards yes but it's not bad for an animal that has a brain the size of a pea Definitely not unique to humans however
@@butter-qv4wtI agree with everything you said but why do you need to add the aggressive uppercase and "honeypie" at the end? Gross. You know you can disagree with someone without getting weirdly bent out of shape, right?
Gua and Donald seemed very attached to each other, so I actually find the most cruel part of this video the fact that they were abruptly separated after having spent their entire life together and clearly depended on each other
Stollen children is the earmark of the eugenics dynamic disenfranchising families and children. Not even understanding that you don't get broken children and healthy adults without a lot of work but if they're broken you can make them believe anything especially in their own diminishment you can show them that they are not worth anything but slave labor which was the point of eugenics in the first place the justification of a slave labor force based on melanin and culture. Eugenics Is Alive And Well. It is pernicious and needs to be called out before it's everywhere again. Blessings and Truth For All
This experiment was so unnecessary for psych, people already knew at the time that there are limitations in anatomy of differing species. The Kellogs were some of the most frustrating and stupidly cruel researchers on the planet.
@@gggggggggggggggggg161 If you think he needs a tin foil hat then you clearly have no idea what's going on. You do know RUclips is banning people just for discussing the legality of some human rights issues, right?
Overall this isn’t the worst thing in the world. Arguably living in a human home likely isn’t any worse than living in a cage your whole life, but even so I agree. Fundamentally this experiment was unnecessary. As with many experiments in the time it’s simply to see “what would happen if” as apposed to looking for answers to a specific questions. Even I could have predicted the outcome of nearly everything in this video based on average reasoning, and I’m sure a scientist could too. While I believe this experiment could have been much worse in terms of torturous aspects, it’s hard to say there’s anything worse than worthlessly ripping a child away from their parents or using animals poorly without and positive outcome.
@@chubbydinosaur9148 Kellogg sucks but his backstory was interesting. At least Kellogg doesn't run around being a big dumb nearly indestructible mutant who kills peaceful talking deathclaws for LITERALLY no reason like Frank Horrigan. I'm still bitter about it
On the speech part of this, my mother was deaf and my father was a workaholic, but we had lots of cats. According to them, my first "words" were meows for attention and hisses when I was upset. Thank goodness we had a family next door I could play with. Then my real first word was "moon" (I think I was asking for it, not understanding it was far away.)
@@RisingRevengeance I actually grew up to be a volunteer with feral cats. People call me the cat whisperer because I can get through to even the most abused, terrified cat if given the time (and enough food.) It takes a long time of regularly feeding them then hanging out to help them get used to us. We spay and neuter all of them, or take care of kittens if we're too late and they've had a litter, then the ones that are young or had some sort of human interaction I work to get adopted. The rest live in a sterile feral "colony" I pay to feed and built a little playhouse for; doubles for warm shelter in the winter. I'll have to upload more videos of my progress.
The way they treated their kids made me realise my parents weren't loving and were abusive. I didnt realise it wasnt normal to treat your kids like robots that dont need love and only need to "act accordingly".
The scientists failed miserably, because they treated both as test subjects. Neither was raised like a human child. Another huge mistake was giving away Gua after 9 months. If they kept caring for Gua, even as a pet, I think it would be super interesting to see how they differ 10 years down the line. Instead they traumatized both children by separating them, leaving Gua with a weak immune system and Donald with stunted development. I’m sure the bond between Donald and Gua would have lasted a lifetime, even if Gua never acted like a human. This shit broke my heart man😪
Chimps can become quite dangerous once they hit puberty if I'm not mistaken. They long for lots of space to roam, they long for a mate. They are not meant for captivity.
Yep how you experiment if you fuck up the childs first year as you said (stunted development) That's a sign that they were not raised like 2 human babies... So the experiment was useless and stupid. .
Shooting off a gun to purposely startle a baby and a chimp? Spinning a child around until he is visibly sickened and in terrible distress? This is so disgusting.
This was before there were any ethical guidelines for psychological experiments. Thankfully, these types of experiments and studies would never be allowed today.
As someone with POTS, I have a feeling Gua’s disorientation after standing upright for long also had to do with her circulation not being suited for long upright times. She probably got less bloodflow to her head after standing upright for periods that were longer than the chimp’s system were built to handle.
Everyone is talking about how horrible it would have been for gua and i agree 100% but imagine how Donald felt. He was used along side Gua as an experiment child. He never really had a full social development as most of his prime development from infant to toddler were surrounded by experiments. Imagine having to hear gunshots and getting hit on the head at less than a year old. I think this experiment was pretty cruel, not just to Gua, but also to Donald. Glad the mother said to terminate it.
its sad that she only wanted it terminated and only saw an issue once donald started grunting. like yes lets fuck both these beings up emotionally and developmentally but got forbid my son says oo oo aa aa
@@DrFeelGoood to be fair that probably didn't mess him up too bad it is indicative of other poor ways they could have mistreated him I mean the bone density smack test is questionable especially after he already had X-ray data
i think it’s horrible for both, but i feel especially bad for the chimp. the kid was with his family and stayed with his family, the chimp was taken away from his family and then taken away from his new family and lived a life full of experimentation. so fucked up.
but the termination was also horrible. Gua was kicked out for the second time because even though the son was a human guinea pig for 9 months, they didn't care, but as soon as 'god forbid' he 'says oo oo aa aa grunt oo grunt aa aa oo' it's gone too far
It must have also been traumatizing for Donald to lose his sister because she was supposedly "holding him back". This experiment would have been better if they were actually treated more like normal children, and not like some lab rats.
@@dudermcdudeface3674theyre definitely scientists my guy. I get that youre angry and emotional but calling them pseudo scientists just comes off as a petty and low IQ cope
I'd say it's about 6-7. The double separation was exceptionally cruel for Gua, and I think she died due to a weakened immune system from not feeding from her mother, and being raised in a much more sterile environment than the wild. Chimps breastfeed until they're 5, so I feel this has some contribution. I was worried the whole time that Donald would get badly injured as chimps are much stronger than humans. I grew up hearing about St. James Davis and then Charla Nash...so I'm personally am terrified of primates so I was against it from the start of the video.
I agree Dale,chimpanzees are terrifying creatures,to think years ago people would happily sit and have their photo taken with one whilst on holiday,usually places like Spain,makes my blood run cold.
@@nickyblue4866 indeed,stuff of nightmares,they hunt small primates in the wild for fun,tear them apart,etc,I watched a documentary about it,it disturbed me on another level 😳
I still recall with the story of Travis, The Chimp, broke the news cycle... There was a (rich) kid in my class who had a "pet monkey", though I don't recall what kind. I know they bought it from a lab', while the animal rights activists were actively vandalizing such places... AND I never had much appreciation for the exotic animal trades... Even though all the more government has done is lay hefty fines and require certifications for training on car, maintenance, and handling... (U.S.) If you enjoy your blood curdling, boiling, and then freezing in your veins in various cycles, I highly recommend you look Travis up along with his "incident"... I'm NOT particularly terrified of apes, but I'm also a proficient reptile wrangler... so maybe not the best of role-models... I DID obtain my skills in animal handling generally from cleaning up the messes left behind between the exotics trades and the stupid activists who thought it might be a great idea to bust into a lab or storage facility and unlock all the damn cages... JeeYEEzzzuisss... Sometimes I've found it incrediblly easy to DESPISE the human species. ;o)
I feel so bad for Gua. She was forced apart from her mother, no clue as to why. Then in the gunshot experiment, she had no idea what danger that could have been so her reaction was to seek comfort in the man. Then she was forced apart from her best friend, her brother who she was inseparable from and loved dearly
@@pablorocky6064 Try forgetting about the ape for a minute...a innocent child was raised with a Chimp because of some Hair-brained experiment conducted on him by those who he depended on. He ended himself in the end. That's more than enough to sympathize with.
@@bigalsnow8199 There's nothing wrong with understanding that an animal is in a bad situation as well as a human. If a human and their dog are both homeless, we can feel bad for both of them. It's frankly inhuman how you cannot think of the pain of both the human and the chimp. That poor animal had no idea what was going on and neither did the baby.
I've read somewhere that the Kellogg ended up deeply regreting the experiment - not because of what it did to their son, but because it prevented him from being taken seriously as a scientist.
Imagine almost redeeming yourself and then actually doubling down on how violently disconnected from reality you've become. The ivory tower stretches high.
@@resikin either you're an actual psychopath with no empathy whatsoever, or a teen who thinks psychopaths are cool so you pretend to be a guy with no empathy.
Yes. That wasn't mentioned. Only that his educational development was late. But not about the effects it would cause both of them later since they were most probably strongly emotionally bonded.
I haven’t read all the comments but is it possible that Donald’s suicide in 1973 could be attributed partially to the death of his parents in 1972? Possibly helped along by the fact that he may have had an abnormal attachment due to being raised in relative isolation w only the parents and some scientists?
I don't think so, I may be wrong but the video says that the experiment ended in 9 months, so Donald was hardly 2 when that happened and I assume that he went to live a normal human life after that so besides the trauma of having his sister taken away I don't think he was scarred by the experiment
I agree that his suicide could probably be in part attributed to the death of his parents, but probably nothing to do with the experiment necessarily. I think most people get pretty sad when their loved ones pass away, especially if both of their parents die in the same year.
donald was too youn when the expirment ended to suffer any major effects but your probably right that he ended himself because the lose of his parents i know id likely do the same im a shut in hermit if i didnt have any family left it would be total hellish isolation.
@@naty8646 There's a lot of evidence for how much early experiences can play into development of the psyche. Both being so isolated from other humans, as well as having one of those few individuals he did interact with abruptly taken away could definitely have made an impact. That it happened at a time when he couldn't properly verbalise it might even have worsened it's impact, in that it would have been very abstract a trauma and thus difficult to process or even identify in later life. Simply a hard-to-pinpoint sense of isolation, loneliness or anxiety. To draw from personal experience: After a long period (4 years) of having to entirely repress emotions to survive, and then repressing the _memories_ of this time I've developed issues even isolating basic needs from general anxiety. When I experience anxiety I have to stop and ask myself if I am hungry, cold, tired etc. I can recognise these things. "Am I upset about this thing that happened (or is the anxiety spontaneous)?" is much more difficult for me to discern, even though I'm an adult and "the thing" happened the other day or an hour ago. Even in recognising and treating (with a psychologist) an identified trauma from when I was 4-5 years old, is incredibly difficult. It's a bit likehaving to reach blind into a bag to find potentially dangerous objects through touch.
It’s sad because the bond between Gua and the human boy was actually pretty heartwarming, it might have been cool to see both of them as adults, still having that same bond, though obviously this experiment is still a monstrosity.
Oh they wouldnt have that same bond as adults. Gua would eventually tear Donald's literal whole face off if not kill him. Chimps are extremely dangerous as adults even when raised in the most ethical of circumstances.
@lady jay mac that simple is NOT true.... there was a rehabber who raised his daughter among the primates (albeit their home was separate from the primate enclosures) he had- the one she bonded with the most, was eventually released into the wild ... when she was an adult, she and her father went to try and find him to see how he was doing (as an adult chimp)- they were able to find him and when he approached them, he was very very very gentle with her (even though she was now grown) and still rough (not in a harmful way) with her dad 🤷🏼♀️ Animals understand differences and how to be gentle- if they have a bond since they were young, and were treated well, they will always have that bond and act lovingly toward their human counterparts they bonded with... you can also see some places that try to rehab chimps but are unable to release them- one place, the keeper in charge of the chimps is stuck with the group of chimps sleeping in her bed 🤣🤦♀️ They got used to her having them in her room at night as babies and now that’s where they stay 🤷🏼♀️ Also some primates in the wild kidnap dogs and they don’t kill the dogs (who are much more fragile than them) 🤷🏼♀️ However if a chimp isn’t treated right or doesn’t have social time (as they are social creatures) with other chimps, they will become agitated and act out... if you don’t socialize a human (like genie) they will have similar behaviors
@@affordablehousing9116 no, chimps definitely rip their prey apart if it is in fact living prey. It's not fear mongering to say chimps are dangerous as adults, it is a fact. "it happened once" what happened once? whatever idea in your head you are referencing? because the op didn't mention a specific event, just warned what the chimp will do. There is not only one time that chimps have ripped living things apart, this is a known habit of theirs. if you mean just attacking humans? just look up chimps attacking humans and you'll find that its more common then the one time you're referencing. most times they're locked up in a cage at a zoo and cant get to you, so its real easy to say they don't attack people, but even then they still do. Educate yourself before trying to discredit factual information.
@@candicecart9786 one can simply say "Humans dont kill animals! i knew a guy who raised a guy who never once killed an animal!" but that doesn't mean that others don't. you knew a guy who raised a gal with a chimp and everyone lived happily ever after, cool, that may happen with quite a bit of people, but the reality is, that doesn't change how dangerous the animal is.
I think a huge fault of this experiment is how late they were on receiving the baby chimp. 7 months a lot of development missed, and her being raised by her own kind in those first several months would for sure impact the experiment. I know this for certain, since without even knowing I did something very similar. I have been raising baby cats for a long time now, and about a year ago my family found an abandoned kitten, who was still breastfeeding and could barely crawl. We bottle fed him, bathed him (he was extremely messy), and loved him a lot. He quickly understood that I and my family were basically his parents, and as he grew it became more and more apparent. What was the most noticeable change, was actually his form of speech. He wasn't exposed to other cats until his early teens, so his only reference for how he should sound was us speaking to him. Now he never meows, he simply makes "ahhs" and chirping noises. Much like a chimp (which is pretty funny to us, since we named him monkey lol). He would even scream a high pitched "ahhhh!" when he was upset by something. But to finish this example in explaining why they messed up before the experiment even began, is because a couple months after adopting monkey, we found a young malnourished kitten in front of our driveway coming home one night. She was unresponsive due to starvation and dehydration, but after a couple days of eating proper she started gaining her strength back. However, while she was raised by us early on in her life, she clearly was past breastfeeding when we found her, so her reactions and attitude were comparably different to Monkey's. She can meow, although chooses to do chirps around Monkey when they play. The two have different temperaments since they are two different cats, but the way they vocalize themselves is very different. They both have grown very attached to us, regardless. But yeah seeing this video reminded me a lot of that.
Dude I grew up on a farm 81 acres no internet until I was 20 I'm 28. Lots of cats and dogs around me I know exactly what you mean. About how they act completely different.
Donald died in 1973… “both” parents died in 1972, unusual and we’re not told how they passed. Regardless, the loss of one parent would be stressful enough, so I’m sure the loss of both added immensely to whatever other high stressors were weighing on him. What a sad and reckless experience.
This happend in Norway not even long ago. It wasn't an experiment though. A chimpanzee in the Kristiansand Zoo was rejected by his mother as a baby and the zoo director took him in with his family. Julius (The ape) Was raised alongside the director's kids and was treated like a human child. When Julius grew older the family tried introducing him back with the other chimpanzees several times without luck. Eventually, the leader of the chimpanzees died and Julius took the spot as leader. To this day he is probably what the Zoo is most famous for, and whenever the old Zoo director and his family comes to visit Julius he gets visibly excited.
@@wilhelmu whaa...sorry to disappoint you, but the movies from 2011 to 2017 are not remakes of the ones form 1968 to 1973; the ones from 2011 to 2017 are Origins to the ones from 1968 to 1973. @Fadaz in the first saga, the apes ruling the world venerate the ancestor who liberated them from the opression of the humans, and was called Caesar; so, yes, everything's related, but inspired in a different way.
I feel bad for Gua. You can tell she wanted love and after being taken from her mother she found it in the Kellogg family… only to feel like part of the family before taken away again.
That’s really sad that the Kelloggs evicted Gua once she wasn’t of use to them anymore. Were they not attached to her after months of treating her like their baby? The Kelloggs seem like terrible parents, not just to the chimp but to their human baby. Kids shouldn’t be their parent’s scientific experiments.
@@generaljuno6895 Even if they didn't evict her, she's still a wild animal. She would've had to be taken out eventually because they're not a domesticated species, and it takes years to achieve this. Some domestic species like hamsters still function closer to their wild parts. And other, when largely untamed, like lizards, exhibit wild animal behavior too. The difference is these have been continuously bred..some ethical and unethical to ward off wild traits. We know they require training but we can’t yield out every genetic trait.
that's far from worst parents in the world. it's not exactly good parents either but even in social care, where you aren't related, you develop affection towards the people you support, so the carers probably loved both the child and the ape. Yet there are crazy parents out there doing wayy worse things to their own children
The premise of the experiment is false. Children ‘raised’ by wolves aren’t fully included in the pack, it seems they were treated more like the runt and an outsider. Looking at the details the children were often fed by locals and weren’t fully wild. The fact they were human means they couldn’t fully behave like wolves, which is exactly what was found in this case.
They are canines. Runts and outsiders are treated like family (unless the mother thinks it won't be able to survive). Also, how would the wolves feed the child? Children cannot eat wolf food. That being said, adult humans can do live with wolves. They can feed themselves quite well and can help the pack by carrying loads, defending puppies, and especially breaking bones for marrow. Probably some hunter-gathers joined a wolf pack or small group for protection when they had nothing better to do.
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana My point is we're just not physically evolved for surviving in the wild. It's just a natural result of favoring intelligence over physical endurance.
I think the main issue in this experiment was that they focused too much on the experiment itself. If Gua and Donald were socialized around more people, especially developing children, I'm certain it would have been much more productive.
I agree. Both “children” weren’t treated like children. They were treated like experiments. If they wanted to fully immerse Gua into human behavior, more human connection would’ve been necessary.
@@Pandie2828 Very fair point. I don’t think the experiment was a good idea in the first place. My only thoughts were that they were too deep in to back out by the place they were at. Would’ve led to a lot of heartache whether Gua stayed or left after that long of being raised as a human.
Scientifically, this is not a comparison because the chimp was traumatized at 7 months by being removed from his mother. The human child did not have that kind of trauma (although being a test subject must be traumatic). Chimps don't stand upright because of anatomy and physiology. This is cruel. The name Kellogg has been synonymous with craziness... the whole sugar and fat lie started with Kellogg...
While I think the experiment was questionable at best, I don't think Donald even knew the concept of an experiment at that age, hence it wouldn't have affected him until much later.
@@amyisreallybored I was talking about him at a young age(infant/toddler), it's not until you're older the ghosts come out and haunt you. I think it's about perception and when you're younger and a teenager you aren't mentally developed enough to understand things that happened. As you get older that's when it starts to hit you and understanding it is the only help to move forward.
This is disgusting. It's both child AND animal abuse. It gave me the chills watching this video. All they had to do was be loving parents to two living babies and that would've been experiment enough but instead they treated both of them like objects. Truly disturbing. Are all Kelloggs psychopaths?
I find it hard to imagine the Kelloggs didn't try to experiment on Donald in other ways. I just know that poor kid had a terrible upbringing and I can't even imagine how difficult Gua's last bit of time was. She was subjected to even more experiments and probably had no idea what happened to her "brother" and "parents". She had found what she thought was her new family and they turned out to be cruel. It truly seems like Gua and Donald were each other's only comfort
@@laylalehlani6951 Perhaps it was the loss of his parents a year before? It's not easy for a man alone to continue on after both of their parents have pass on. Something I'm dealing with now. I would say the loss of his parents had more effect then experiments he probably doesn't remember. Of course perhaps you can say the parents poor raising of their child was the reason he couldn't find a wife and have a family of his own (I'm assuming this since the video didn't mention if he ever married). At the very least the kid would have been deaf by the age of 50. Never fire a gun near a child.
Imagine having a kid and going: "OMG! YES! Now I can make it grow up with a chimp and deprive it from normal human interactions ruining both lives forever! YASS!"
But did they? The video didn't say that they intentionally deprived either of human interaction. The video suggests they tried to raise both as humans, that was the entire point. All the grotesque atrocities, exploitation, social engineering and dishonesty in contemporary life, and people whinge about THIS video?
This is heartbreaking. The poor Gau ripped from from her parents to be thrown in to a human lifestyle which obviously she wouldn't adapt to or achieve that of a human child. Then ripped away again. She had no immune system from her mother so no wonder she died like that. She must of felt tortured her whole life. The child wasn't raised as a child, he and Gau were both experiments at a crucial age of their lives and both suffered emotionally.
This is so sad and disgusting. I read about this experiment and came upon this: "They even tried to convince Gua not to eat soap bubbles by jamming a bar of the product into her mouth." it's so sad, I feel so bad for Gua and Donald. They both were the subject of a CLEARLY abusive experiment that should have never been done in the first place because this is technically child and animal abuse. Rest in peace to Donald and Gua.
Cruel enough to never socialize their own damn child and raise them as "siblings" with an ape in some hairbrained experiment which discovered what everyone already knew for millennia; animals and humans have intrinsic differences in intelligence and sociability.
This is heartbreaking.. she had no idea why she wasn't able to be what they wanted her to be and then her brother, the person she loved the most, was ripped away from her.. she probably thought she was being punished for not being good enough
@@thehorde4868 Not necessarily, chimpanzees have similarly to humans very complex social behaviours and as such the capability to properly experience and process them, that is why emotionally Gua was developing quite similarly to Donald. The thought of being punished is questionable, however it is most certain that being suddenly ripped away from her family was a very traumatic experience.
I feel so bad for both children. Imagine growing and learning and bonding with your sibling only for them to be torn away from you without explanation.
A scientist who had more love for his professional intrigues than he had for his family. You can't raise a monkey like you can raise a human if you can't even raise a child right in the first place.
In some areas, a chimp obviously has faster physical developments than a human. It just baffles me that the researchers just tried to ignore these different stages of development. The human and chimp developmental timelines just don't perfectly mirror each other. What useful scientific findings can come from this?
Honestly I doubt wolves would ignore the developing rate of a human, we physically develop quite a bit slower and I'm sure when wolves raised human children they took notice of that and accepted that the humans would figure it out at their own pace. Why would we raise a chimp as the exact same pace as a child when they physically developed faster? If it wasn't an experiment and someone really took in a chimp that was in need they more than likely would work with the chimp at the chimps pace.
I think it goes to show how much of a difference evolution has made. Modern humans don't need things like higher bone density because we don't have to brave the same conditions that other primates do.
@@brattrox2939 Chimps don’t develop all that faster or faster in all areas. For one thing, they continue to drink their mother’s breast milk until they are about five years old, and compared to 18, it takes them about 13 - 15 years to mature. This entire experiment was so strange and cruel, especially to Gua, who was ripped from her family at such a young age.
I feel so bad for both children. When they were separated it must have been so traumatic for both of them. Especially for poor little Gua who was simply sent to be tortured and killed somewhere else, probably never fully understanding why she was taken from both families she had known. This was so needlessly cruel.
@@strawberrie6491 and that makes this ok somehow? Also you're wrong, she was a chimpanzee, therefore an ape, not a monkey. Chimpanzees are our closest genetic relative. Which is probably exactly why they chose a chimp for their deranged experiment. Chimps are literally the closest thing in nature to a human. So chimp or not, it was a child. A small child that had no understanding of why she was ripped away from her mother, tortured, then ripped away from the only affection she had da known in her life
@strawberrie I know this will be mind blowing.....but you don't have to think one is more important than the other to feel empathy for another sentient being who does have feelings, social awareness, language, and family bonds. I know, shocking! point being you only further highlighting that you aren't worth continuing to have any meaningful conversation with, but I did it anyways because I hope something clicks for you. it probably won't but I'm optimistic in humans changing with maturity and time 😊 bye bye now.
There were so many interesting tidbits from this, mostly the points where the chimp outperformed the human at some phase of development. Shows that nature is not wasteful and our vaunted capabilities may well come at a cost. But of course we could have gotten that by just doing some normal experiments with animals of various ages and comparing them to what we see in pediatric development, and a sample size of 1 or 2 makes any experiment useless.
Most mammals, including other primates, are born at a later development stage than humans are, because of the size of a human baby's head. It's not surprising that the chimp developed faster in physical skills and social/emotional intelligence -- these traits would be essential to survival in the wild. But humans nurture their babies in a much safer environment, and the human brain needs more time to develop because we are much more complicated cognitively than chimps are.
We've known for a long time now that human development comes at a huge cost and is extremely slow. Most animals are born at least somewhat self sufficient or develop some degree of self sufficiency extremely quickly. The problem is our enormous heads and tiny pelvises. Humans have to be born extremely early (comparatively) because otherwise our heads couldn't fit through our pelvises. In turn that means infants are nearly useless and require years of investment before any reasonable degree of independence is developed. It's super interesting really, the trade off between our intelligence/brain size and the utter and sheer uselessness of our infants. Doesn't take a genius to see that most animals are juvenile for at most a couple years, whereas humans can barely be self sufficient if needed in their mid teens, and our development isn't generally complete till our late teens. There's a lot of evolutionary biology and theories as to how this happened. Did our brains get too big too fast, was the trade off worth it (ie more years spent raising a kid = higher success rate even if it's a significantly riskier/costlier endeavor), why are our births so relatively risky, etc etc. tl;dr a lot of it is due to our comparatively large brain/head size. Babies have to be so young and useless because otherwise birth would literally be impossible Of course answering these questions also doesn't really require ethically dubious and scientifically non-sense studies like these.
@@nexaentertainment2764 if I recal correctly it's not quite so simple as head size alone, more that head size is a proxy for brain size, and that there's a hard limit to the amount of energy that a mother can provide through the placenta, and brain, being energetically expensive is kinda the limiting part. Thus the baby somewhat self equalizes with the size of the given mother's hips, otherwise, due to natural variations in size( smaller mother bigger father) you'd see more instances of a clash. Which explains why human babies are also *physically* underdeveloped, weak, helpless - so many resources are being dedicated to brain, that there's not much left over for the rest of the body. The pelvis indirectly puts limits to the size of the brain, and the size of the brain thus also puts limits on the rest of the body
"a sample size of 1 or 2 makes any experiment useless" This right here! A sample size of 1 is basically just anecdotal evidence--it's nothing you can develop any real conclusions on. Seems like the only thing any of this would be useful for is to suggest additional avenues (hypotheses) worth exploring with much more extensive and rigorous research/study (at best).
As Gua had spent 7.5 months with her natural parents, I'd assume she had learned things like the nest making from them and had retained that knowledge!
That’s right because at 7 months she was already further along the development path than a human she was probably like 2 in ape years. How could the scientists not compare the life span and cycles and account for such variables? No wonder they weren’t taken seriously. Lol the media probably loved them though. What tabloid fodder. still is to this day.
Or that was something built into her by her Creator. Bees have abilities we humans do not have… not learned or figured out intellectually… but endowed by their Creator.
What ended the experiment sounded like big bias. The experiment shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I'm inclined to believe there was a lot of "The stupid chimp was supposed to get smarter, not make MY son dumber!" Honestly both of the kids acted pretty normally given the situation. Donald, as stated in the video, was being socially stunted more because he didn't have many peers outside of Gua, so of course he started mimicking Gua. Gua seemed to develop normally for the most part, poor gal learned to be ashamed of not following human norms but otherwise was doing pretty well actually considering her biology definitely got in the way of doing some tasks. I give the experiment a 4. Was very stupid and unnecessary but it seemed like a majority of the time they were living relatively normal lives. Poor Gua didn't deserve to be experimented on more, nor should have since she'd be such a big outlier from other chimps at that point.
I don’t understand why Donald didn’t go to school. Or didn’t play with his cousins more. Or neighborhood kids. Gua probably didn’t have anything to do with his stunting. But yeah not the cruelest thing that happened here. But quite unnecessary and traumatizing for the chimp.
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan I don’t know, early preschool? I’m not American so I don’t know how early school starts there. I know it starts very early with something like pre school. I also know most Americans don’t associate with their cousins much which is strange.
The guy hit his son on the head with a spoon despite already knowing both human and ape skull hardness. I don't think he cares about his son, at least while he is young.
Did it occur to them to try teaching Gua sign language? It seems like the experiment was only looking for spoken language but I think that the limiting factor in that respect may be that Chimpanzees don't possess the larynx structure to speak.
That is exactly against the experiment. They had to teach BOTH the ape and child the SAME way. They would have to do an entirely separate experiment to do that, otherwise this one would be inconclusive as per how it was designed.
@@ZazooEel57 In otherwords, a flawed experiment, as Plainly suggested, the real human kid didn't even need to be involved. There is high probability that a Chimp has the mental capacity to speak(it understood more words than the human kid) but just never could because learning won't overcome physical limitations.
@@milksheihk yes, my thoughts exactly! It’d be like comparing the mental capabilities of a deaf child or child with damage to their vocal chords to one without those physical limitations. It’s inaccurate. It’s biased. It’s just plain wrong. I feel so bad for Donald an especially Gia, who was not only uprooted twice and denied a normal chimp upbringing, but who also was made to feel shame for not being a human.
Some apes can speak *some* words. There is even a video from a zoo with a lady asking a grown male chimp to say "mommy" in exchange for sweets. And he clearly said it, you can look it up. Rather than them being incapable, I think speaking is just too unnatural(well duh) and inconvinient for them. It's also more complex than sign so.
I'm gonna try to keep it short, but tell you about the same thing being done in Norway in the 80's. Definitely a much happier story! So in December 1979 the chimpanzee Julius was born in Kristiansand Zoo. His finger got bit off, and his mother did NOT care, she completely rejected him from the family. The director of the zoo decided to take Julius to the doctor, get him proper treatment, and then take him home. Julius lived with Edvard Moseid and his family for almost 5 years, together with Moseid's two daughters. (Funfact: my mom went to the same school as the sisters, same year as one of them) They wanted to give him a safe space to grow up, but also wanted to reunite him back to the pack. They made a tv show about him, and he is the most famous animal in Norway of all time. After about 5 years they tried to reunite him, as he was getting more aggressive. It didn't work as planned, so he was isolated in the zoo, until the leader of the pack died - then he was welcomed back with the others. He is still alive as of now, 2022. 42 years old, and the leader of the pack. He still gets super excited when "mom" and "dad" and his "sisters" come to visit.
Around 16:30, the experiment noted the child's inability to say words, but mimicked Gua's grunts. I've seen this firsthand. An older child had a lisp, which the mother failed to acknowledge. The younger sibling began to pronounce words similarly. It was sad that the mom refused speech therapy for the older child, thus both children suffered. The logic of this experiment was valid, but ultimately, the development timeline of the 2 species was not compatible.
Im seeing this happen fist hand. First child had autism, on top of a traumatic brain injury in infancy, on TOP OF being neglected by his parents and refused any verbal help. he was sat in front of a tv all hours of the day when he wasnt being loaded in the car and dropped off at grandmas house for the entire weekend. Parents didnt raise child number 1 so they figured having a second would be easy enough. Grandma started to refuse babysitting for so long, forcing parents to have to see the consequences of their actions. child number 1 will only scream, growl, roar, say "kay" when prompted or forced, and the only words he says are things and sounds he memorizes from movies-- he doesnt understand a single thing hes saying. he's 6. child number 2 has no autism, brain injury, etc. all she does is scream, whine, say "okay", and "go go go". She is four. meanwhile, my other nieces and nephews (all of whom are between 2-3) can speak FULL SENTENCES. I can genuinely have a conversation with two of my other nephews and one of my other nieces. I know you arent supposed to compare childrens development-- But there is a point when it isnt "late blooming" it's neglect. both of the parents regularly complain about how "much" the kids are, how big of failures they are, how much theyre lacking. The mother will often roll her eyes and say "yep. thats my kid" with so much regret in her eyes as she looks at child 2 scream and roll on the floor because someone looked at her wrong.
@@audrey2658 so upsetting. When you said it’s not late blooming it’s neglect, fr I can’t believe I’d never realized that. Every child deserves an attentive loving parent :(
@@audrey2658 this kind of happened to me, i never properly learned how to do most things because my dad is a drug addict and alcoholic and my mom worked too much and spent too much time away from home. then my dad left us when i was 6. i spent most of my childhood mute until i got into online games and started learning english. now i know english better than my actual language. but i also got diagnosed with bpd and started abusing drugs and alcohol. now the internet is my life because its the only place i really got love from my friends. and i am happy i have them but i cannot function in the real world and my parents hate me for causing problems for them, but i was raised this way. i wish i was born into a normal family
There are a lot of really little things and big things as well like that that can really change a lot for a kid growing up because it just becomes a habit or a lifestyle. It's basically the reason we don't show violent movies or swear a lot around really young kids who are still at the impressionable ages because they get to a point where they'll start swearing a lot, or they'll think violence is OK, or anything like that because that's just how they grew up.
@Chronic videos bruh they shot a gun and bopped em on the head and probably caused emotional damage from separating the two babies. Your supposed watch over and express your love for your kid.
@@lillygames6117 but they did not shot the children? It was for the reaction. And from the sound volume it would be the same as if we take babies to fireworks today. Not that dramatic I think. Hitting them is not good Indeed, but there are some medical tests were infants get "hit" on the head to controll behavior (for example when the child fell on their head)
"For this experiment, we will treat both of them as equals as if they were raised in a human family" *Proceeds to equally treat them as test subjects instead of actual children*
*The experiment is so shortsighted. They could've easily just taught them both sign language alongside actual spoken words (mainly for Donald to develop speech normally, and for Gua's hearing comprehension). Really sad how it ended for them.*
Years of research with multiple approaches indicate that chimpanzees and gorillas can't learn comprehensive speech (abstract thinking requires a high grade of cognitive performance) ruclips.net/video/e7wFotDKEF4/видео.html
I think actually the idea to teach chimps sign language came from looking at the results of this experiment and realizing Gua tried to communicate physically
When you said that this non-human species was taught to do everything ONLY in the "human way", it was an indication that things won't turn out good for the chimpanzee. When you try to force an animal to do anything but be itself, it'll get frustrated and find an outlet, whatever that may be. Maybe this wasn't the case for this situation, but it still resulted in the Gua suffering in the end.
From what I understand of people who keep chimps as ill-advised pets, training and discipline generally seems to go pretty smoothly while it's a child. Things tend to go sideways when the chimp hits sexual maturity, and then that frustration finds its outlet in attacking a human.
Donald had already developed object permanence when Gua was taken away. Having a sibling die is traumatic but to lose one in such an early stage of development must have been unfathomable.
@ Cat People some parents think like that and treat children like object because "he wont remember this so its ok." Pls dont think like that. Even if someone wont remember anything its not ok to hurt them.
I love how the whole point of this experiment was to see if a chimp would become more human-like if it were raised just like a human child. Yet they didn’t even raise their own human child normally so how on earth was that gonna work? *If you’re gonna do an experiment like this maybe you should’ve just done it with two normal parents and not two mad scientists.*
I'm surprised that pretty much nobody is pointing out how big of a problem it is that Gua only joined the family when she was 7.5 months old. I think that's the biggest issue with the experiment, one which completely negates its significance. Either use a newborn or don't run the experiment at all. It's pointless to do it when the chimpanzee has already lived with her parents for 7.5 months and was taught to act like chimpanzee, only then to be forcibly brought up as a human. I guess the "researchers" back then were grossly underestimating how much children can and do learn before they start talking, even in first months of their lives...
Why did they have to use a revolver specifically to test a reaction time? That could seriously hurt a kid’s ears, let alone a monkey. They’re lucky they didn’t deafen that poor kid when they let it off so close to them. A simple loud clap woulda done the same effect
@@richterman3962 I'm pretty sure you're referring to kids who live in bad neighborhoods, yes? If so, Freya's point still makes sense. There is no need to subject a child or ape to the sound of a gunshot when any sound would work. Making this point doesn't mean someone is innocent or sheltered, they just aren't gonna subject their child to gunshots for no reason. That does more harm than good.
You gotta be kidding to rate the ethical measure of this experiment at 5 or 6! The idea was theoretically ineresting, but the inherent cruelty with which it was carried out was enormous. I feel for Gua and for Donald.
The fact that Donald grew up to study psychiatry should speak volumes on how his whole upbringing affected his life. He was probably trying to understand why humans could do that to animals and other humans.
Psychiatry is more about the identification and diagnosis of mental illnesses, not so much focused on the “why” they arise, but focused on “how” to treat them. Maybe they were inspired to help others because of the unique experience he had
@@uva19274 I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Psychiatrists will diagnose patients and medicate them accordingly, they are less so there to create a strong connection with the patient and more so trying to address the issue at hand. A Psychologist is not licensed to give medication to any individual. This is why I said in response to the original comment, which is speculative in of its self and my response is also speculative; that he would most likely not be focused on the "why humans could do that", because if that were the case then they would have gone into the field of psychology/cognitive sciences to research human behavior, instead they've studied already found empirical data that allows them to become a doctor and then be able to give treatment to individuals who need it. So, no he is a psychiatrist because of whatever reason but if he cared for the "why" then he would have been a researcher, but he is not so its hard to assume that he was hung up on the why.
"They would be raised exactly as a human child would." >Proceeds to fire a revolver behind the children to see if they would react differently. I'm sorry?
@@MementoMoriGrizzly guns can cause hearing damage! Obviously the sound of a gun next to your ear is way different from a distance gun shot. The problem isn’t exactly the gun itself but rather the fact that they would go so far to the extent of hearing damage to achieve their goal, when you can accomplish literally the same thing by popping a balloon.
@@queeenie *Acting as if just because something is outlawed means no individual can obtain it. Fun fact: Most gun use in the US is actually not by the firearms registered owner, but rather by someone who acquired the firearm either "off the books" (bought it from another citizen and thus papers never changed properly) OR acquired it illegally (knowingly went to a black market dealer to purchase one).
How horrible that Gua was continuously ripped away from love as if she was without any feeling. Being poked, prodded, and admonished as if insignificant. I'm sure Gua was incredibly depressed. Apparently, Donald became depressed as well. As seen with all animal experimentation, human arrogance exhibits such emptiness.
My grandmother was a scientist who researched the development of children and how they think to find out ways to improve the school system. Her experiments, however, did not involve banging children with spoons to see how they reacted or firing a gun. Hers were things like looking at a picture and talking about what we saw - she used to do this with my sister and I when we were children.
I dont know why firing gun was necessary Kids also react if we clap or throw something heavy on the floor They could have recorded their reaction without destroying their weak ear drums I think these A holes did all that to get more media attention
@@LadyLakeland No Rorschach is not used in kids development. For kids, you usually show drawings with more or less details and ask if they can explain what is happening. Like someone cooking, sleeping in bed etc... You can see there their ability to explain a situation and how much they understand causality (cooking, because I'm hungry, sleeping because it's the night) etc... You can also of course, use drawings to see what they can find in the picture (roughly, where's waldo), but to check the understanding of color or numbers (how many pink rabbits, find a sleeping rabbit etc..)
I feel for the child more than anything. He basically born to be a test subject... Then again, I feel for Gua too I just can't relate the same way. I imagine it was very difficult and potentially damaging to let go of one another so suddenly. They loved eachother and being raised as siblings, were extremely close. So while Gua was no doubt traumatized in some way by losing her mama and then the adopted "family" or more or less most likely her big brother. Sad....
I can't help but feel more for Gua, At least Donald got to live a full life with parents that truly seemed to care for him, even if in some very fucked up ways. Gua got nothing but trauma and pneumonia... Poor baby just needed a hug, a kiss, and a proper home.
"Truly seemed to care for him....in...fucked up ways" ?!?!? Guess what that equals you dolt?! ABUSE!! And it is not caring at all!! I suspect his idiot parents were major narcissists, especially given they were into eugenics like Bill Gates' father! And look how Bill turned out!!
@@Slivertrust I completely agree. Imagine being ripped from your family, forced to work against your nature by weird creatures, hit, startled, embarrassed, and then just abandoned when you were no longer considered useful to the people you've basically stockholmed into loving. I bet the trauma and stress is what lead to the pneumonia. Donald's well being was what caused the experiment to end. Nobody gave a single crap about what was going on with Gua.
How cruel. Poor Gua. Gua trusted and thought of them as her family. Did you see her reaction after the gun shot. She crawled to her 'family' for support. And their own son used like this...so unethical.
Jesus Christ you people can overreact. According to all reports neither Donald nor Gua were psychologically affected by their separation or by spending 9 months together as infants. You know? Those things that have almost no brain capacity and who won't remember anything until about 2-3 years old depending on the individual? You people are probably all fucking meat eaters and want to talk about morality? Get lost.
Any time someone with the name Kellogg says the want to do experiments it should automatically be declined and looked into to see what kind of f'd up torture they want to perform.
@@AirQuotes The cereals are dubious, some rankings have them being "the best for ethics" (but this seems to be based on kellogg's self reporting) then others have them sourcing palm oil from illegally farmed sources, misleading advertising on actual levels of salt and sugars in their cereals (and subsequent loss of two class action lawsuits) and recently fired 1400 employees who were striking for a fair wage.
Of course Donald took his own life. Imagine being raised in this way. That detail at the end didn't shock me at all. Poor guy, and poor Gua. She died so soon after leaving their family, almost certainly from a weakened immune system
I doubt this experiment influenced Donald's decision to take his own life, but it does show how bad his parents were at parenting. All it really did was traumatise Donald and Gua and potentially get Gua killed
I honestly feel bad for these two. Gua, who was forced to conform to human normalcy and Donald who was never treated as a human child in the first place but rather a model for his parents to compare to.
If the human's development was limited by lack of socialization, wouldn't that do the same for the chimp? By existing in only a lab setting, I think they both would have been lacking substantial portions of the early human experience, and as such, human development.
There was a chimp called Julius that lived with a family (because his herd rejected him as a baby). He didn’t develop particularly further, but he bonded closely with the family and definitely had a sense of humor and when he became an adult and too dangerous to have in the house, he was reintroduced to a herd in the zoo and there he communicated more with humans than his peers.
as someone who's autistic and who goes nonvocal on occassion, the fact the experiment ended soley because gua couldnt vocalize is heartbreaking. she could obviously communicate!
@@jbcfamily4802 and yeah know half of me wants to say SO what if the child started speaking ape? My son went around growling like a dinosaur for a while. But i would have been interested to study whether or not the child's grunts effectively communicated information to the chimp? As the child wold be more naturally in tune with his "sibling" and the child is still non verbal and learning speech... i wonder.
I would agree because also, the ability to vocalize is not necessary to be “human.” Babies that are born deaf or mute and just deaf/mute people in general aren’t any less human, so there’s no reason the experiment needed to end because she couldn’t speak words
This is so cruel. How could you tear a baby chimp away from her mother, raise her for 9 months in your family, and then tear her away from the only home she's ever known? And then they gave her away to be experimented on...
Twice! It wasn't the only home she ever knew. She spent 7 months brought up with her mother, then 9 months with the human family, then separated again.
It's so disgusting and heartbreaking for both Gua and her mother that they just ripped them apart like that! And then again, poor Gua loses her family just months later. She must've been terribly miserable!
Still is day to day in family court, take the child away and make hate the another parent. People relate to the chimp, but divorce happens with little to no concern for the children.
@@massive_dick_gaming Interesting how vegans just assume something who expresses empathy for animals must be an omnivore and then proceeds to jump down that person's throat when there was no indication that they eat animas.
Did it not occur to anyone that Guess extreme shyness towards adults, though as normal as it might be, could have possibly stemmed from the trauma she experienced when she was with her parents? I don't recall if they were "apprehended" before or after her birth, but certainly it was adult humans that took her away from her mother.
yes, it just turned me apart :( gua loved her "sibling" and by the looks of it she also loved his "father", if she was distressed bcs they removed some little things from her bed rutine imagine what would she feel like when they removed what she entirely considered a family. she didnt even get to know what happend, i think she felt it was her fault (seeing that she felt ashamed and shy when failing in some experiments). Donald then learned and comprehend what happend, but gua... she didnt :(
@@billfrank471 not really, at the time of the experiment it was proven that chimpanzees had limitations and could never act fully human. The experiment was useless as most of the outcomes were already known
Jesus Christ you people can overreact. According to all reports neither Donald nor Gua were psychologically affected by their separation or by spending 9 months together as infants. You know? Those things that have almost no brain capacity and who won't remember anything until about 2-3 years old depending on the individual? You people are probably all fucking meat eaters and want to talk about morality? Get lost.
I'm taking a psychology class rn at college and I will say that some of the experiments that have been done in the past are frightening and horrendous. The little Albert experiment for an example was pretty messed up. There's been other ones too but it's crazy that not that long ago these experiments were taken place.
I think the worst one I ever learned about was that disgusting sick fuck Harlow's experiments with monkeys. Absolutely despicable pos human being for what he did and the lack of empathy that monster had for those animals Edit to clarify: Im not just talking about the monkey love experiments, which were also fucked up, Im talking mostly about the pit of despair experiments. Harlow was a pathetic excuse of a human being
@@gremlininblue2601 Honestly, the monkey attachement experiment was already terrible. Seeing this little monkey desesperatly trying to hug the female researcher only to be put in this cage was horrible to see. But the pit of despair experiments... my fucking god it's horrible.
@@yesterdayseyes nothing experimental in giving puberty blockers, has been done for a variety of medical reasons for decades. no kid as actually doing anything irreversible to their body when they take blockers.
@@yesterdayseyes Yes absolutely horrendous. I’ve also seen a picture of a thirteen year old being proudly showcased after getting the breasts removed. At that age… I have no words.
She deserved more for sure and should've never been there. They couldn't have kept her for long anyway, they get real strong and will lash out eventually.
Raising an ape as a human (so long as they aren't unreasonable with it, and acvount for their differences) isn't the thing that strikes me as unethical. What strikes me as unethical is the continued separation and the partly unreasonable raising of her. Not to mention, the abuse for both their son and gua. Personal rating is a 4.
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I think another aspect that should have been obvious is that for the humans raised with wolves, the humans would under-develop. But if another animal were to try and live the complex life a human would, they would have to dramatically over-develop, which without time to adapt and evolve to be capable, is basically impossible
While it's blatantly obvious how traumatic this was for Gua, and I believe led to her death, nobody mentioned the trauma inflicted on Donald. So awful for both of them. Very sad. 😔
Because people care more about a dumb, filthy chimp than they do about a human child, their own kind. At least the vast majority of people I see trying to end primate experiments altogether are misanthropes. They also don't seem to be very vocal at all about experiments on cats and dogs.
There are tons of comments regarding Donald… I think that, for some reason we’re conditioned to feel more sympathetic towards animals than people and someways. And I am sure that Gua went through more trauma than Donald after basically being abandoned by parental figures twice. Especially when they took her out of the household. That probably significantly influenced her to die very young because her soul probably was broken. But then who knows what else they did to Donald after that. They definitely sound like people that shouldn’t have children. But that’s also partially viewing it by today’s standards. Back then children were treated horribly. It was like adults didn’t believe the children were human…
It's amazing the tunnel vision humans can get when they have an idea. This may have attempted to be a comparative analysis, but ended up being a case study in early childhood trauma across species. It does not sound like either infant was treated with normal love and affection, while sharing in parental centered trauma. It's almost more shocking that the adults generating this study were so oblivious of normal that they couldn't see the obvious flaws. We wonder why so many systems were abusive around this time and think everyone in power was evil. Things like this show us how broken normal people were. Even when trying to create a good environment... they had no clue what that looked like.
Unfortunately, we as a society haven't even come that far. Just take a look at some of the comments under this video: 'The kid was too young to remember' or 'He lived until 43 and had a career, he was fine!'. SMH.
According to Wikipedia, Donald committed suicide in 1973 (at about 42) so he was clearly forever traumatised by being experimented on in a cruel way. His parents don’t sound like they were ever good to him. Gua’s story is sad but Donald had to live with his terrible upbringing for decades until presumably he couldn’t handle it anymore. I can’t imagine how torturous his life must have been.
How do you know it had anything to do with that? I mean, it might have but a lot can happen in 40 years of life. I honestly think it's more likely that Donald didn't remember most or any of this experiment. That's not to say it couldn't have cause emotional consequences but I think people are overreacting to this.
@@kobayashimaru8114 A lot can happen but a lot more of it does happen when you've been psychologically damaged by your upbringing, especially in the developing years. No one's overreacting, it's just some people know more about it than you.
Expecting a chimpanzee to basically become a human while being raised next to one is like thinking Romulus and Remus would’ve grown fur and claws on account of being raised by wolves.
I can’t believe both parents were allowed to do this. To actually use their own child in an experiment like this and then publish a book about it later. Depriving their child of a normal upbringing where he could socialise was extremely evil and bound to end badly. I wasn’t at all surprised when I heard he took his own life at 43 years old. This is such a tragic story that didn’t need to happen.
I can understand the child being stunted and that being an issue, but attributing the suicide of a 41 year old person to the 9 months which he likely cannot even remember 40 years prior... This is actually ridiculous.
@@RainbowTrainStation Firstly, their only child was taught monkey language , 9 months spent with the child’s ‘brother’ who was then taken away abruptly, never to be seen again. The child’s speech development was retarded and the consequent trauma of losing his only companion would have been devastating to the child and enough to crush all hopes of forming close bonds for life no matter what age he was when it happened. Experiences even in the womb affect humans during their entire lives.. I think this was a classic case of what happens to a human when you interfere with their growth and nurturing during their formative years.
@@kaygoski I guess there is no way that any other events in a span of 40 entire years could have contributed to it. Nope, the first several months of his life are the direct cause for him to do this 40 years later.
I feel so bad for gua 1: She was taken from her rightful home to be a test subject 2: She was forced to learn human like ways and actions while never meeting her kind 3:she built such a strong relationship with Donald just to be taken away for more test for being “not good enough” and “disappointing”~like she’s trying the best she can. Edit- okay so I have been seeing a bunch of little rats in the comments saying “ ohh she doesn’t care about the human” like bestie just because I care for one thing doesn’t mean I don’t care for the other thing. Geez grow up
i mean yeah obviously?? that’s the point of the video,,, thanks for pointing out its not right to take an animal from their habitat and experimented on lol
What's interesting to not is that Winthrop when the experiment was published, didn't regret it because of what he did to his son, but because the scientist community wouldn't take him seriously, a true monster
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first to reply
@@101kickart Nice 1, let me be the first to tell you to get a life.
@jonahwhale9047 big deal!
@jonahwhale9047 Yes Mr Whale, i speak American English, i am aware of the pronunciation, appreciate you man.
Verbal communication is not unique to humans it's found all throughout the animal kingdom most animals that aren't capable of speaking human languages however African greys have been shown to both understand and have shown a capacity to (relatively to other animals excluding humans) intelligently speak English and other languages on a simplistic level by our standards yes but it's not bad for an animal that has a brain the size of a pea
Definitely not unique to humans however
To raise the chimp as a CHILD (NOT pet ) and then just kick her out of your family is just diabolical.
Wat is diabolical is not letting the chimp be raised with its own kind.
THISSSS
I think having your face ripped off by a wild animal is slightly, SLIGHTLY worse than the alternative ngl
@@butter-qv4wtI agree with everything you said but why do you need to add the aggressive uppercase and "honeypie" at the end? Gross. You know you can disagree with someone without getting weirdly bent out of shape, right?
@@motiemour being dramatic, honeypie
"Straight away the Kelloggs started noticing the physical and behavioral differences between the 2 infants"... How observant of them!
😅
They must have been at the top of their class!
These people are asshats.
Woah
I love that their child was turning into a chimp.
Hey it wasn’t that easy to notice
"Ultimately, Gua was limited by the fact she was a chimpanzee"
Yes, I imagine that COULD be an issue.
"WHY THE FUCK YOU CAN'T FLY?
Ah got no wings huh?"
Well they had to figure It out somehow 😕
Best comment 😭
They try so hard to push evolution but never really get what they want
Lmfao, nice
Gua and Donald seemed very attached to each other, so I actually find the most cruel part of this video the fact that they were abruptly separated after having spent their entire life together and clearly depended on each other
Same 😥
I agree
They were both pawns for the scientists sick minds
EXACTLY!!!!!
Stollen children is the earmark of the eugenics dynamic disenfranchising families and children. Not even understanding that you don't get broken children and healthy adults without a lot of work but if they're broken you can make them believe anything especially in their own diminishment you can show them that they are not worth anything but slave labor which was the point of eugenics in the first place the justification of a slave labor force based on melanin and culture. Eugenics Is Alive And Well. It is pernicious and needs to be called out before it's everywhere again. Blessings and Truth For All
This experiment was so unnecessary for psych, people already knew at the time that there are limitations in anatomy of differing species. The Kellogs were some of the most frustrating and stupidly cruel researchers on the planet.
Oh, you have no idea... Go look up Trofim Lysenko. Makes these guys look like innocent children.
@Yummy Spaghetti Noodles hold on to your tinfoil hat^^
@@gggggggggggggggggg161 If you think he needs a tin foil hat then you clearly have no idea what's going on. You do know RUclips is banning people just for discussing the legality of some human rights issues, right?
Google John Money, you all have no idea
Overall this isn’t the worst thing in the world. Arguably living in a human home likely isn’t any worse than living in a cage your whole life, but even so I agree. Fundamentally this experiment was unnecessary. As with many experiments in the time it’s simply to see “what would happen if” as apposed to looking for answers to a specific questions. Even I could have predicted the outcome of nearly everything in this video based on average reasoning, and I’m sure a scientist could too. While I believe this experiment could have been much worse in terms of torturous aspects, it’s hard to say there’s anything worse than worthlessly ripping a child away from their parents or using animals poorly without and positive outcome.
There is something inherently evil about the name Kellogg.
@@chubbydinosaur9148 Kellogg sucks but his backstory was interesting. At least Kellogg doesn't run around being a big dumb nearly indestructible mutant who kills peaceful talking deathclaws for LITERALLY no reason like Frank Horrigan.
I'm still bitter about it
Amen
Kidnapper, cereal-themed puritanical sex obsessive, and baby abuser.
@@Dancingonthesun was just going to say this
Fallout 4 Kellogg always gets me in an angry mood
On the speech part of this, my mother was deaf and my father was a workaholic, but we had lots of cats. According to them, my first "words" were meows for attention and hisses when I was upset. Thank goodness we had a family next door I could play with. Then my real first word was "moon" (I think I was asking for it, not understanding it was far away.)
this is actually so cute :)
I get that it was bad for your development but I couldn't help but laugh. You must've been an odd kitty.
@@RisingRevengeance I actually grew up to be a volunteer with feral cats. People call me the cat whisperer because I can get through to even the most abused, terrified cat if given the time (and enough food.) It takes a long time of regularly feeding them then hanging out to help them get used to us. We spay and neuter all of them, or take care of kittens if we're too late and they've had a litter, then the ones that are young or had some sort of human interaction I work to get adopted. The rest live in a sterile feral "colony" I pay to feed and built a little playhouse for; doubles for warm shelter in the winter. I'll have to upload more videos of my progress.
My first “words” were barks and growls that I learned from my dog! Lol
@@pickles3128 this made my day! Thank you for your kindness.
What a sick experiment for both Gua and Donald. How abusive. How can anyone spin a child, listen to him cry but carry on spinning anyway. Creepy.
How did these people expect to treat a chimp like a human being when they couldn’t even treat their own child like a human being?
🤣😂
Beat comment. They behaved like sociopaths.
The way they treated their kids made me realise my parents weren't loving and were abusive. I didnt realise it wasnt normal to treat your kids like robots that dont need love and only need to "act accordingly".
Made me chuckle, nice way of putting the answer there the way you phrased that question, love it!
hahah that's so true!
The scientists failed miserably, because they treated both as test subjects. Neither was raised like a human child. Another huge mistake was giving away Gua after 9 months. If they kept caring for Gua, even as a pet, I think it would be super interesting to see how they differ 10 years down the line. Instead they traumatized both children by separating them, leaving Gua with a weak immune system and Donald with stunted development. I’m sure the bond between Donald and Gua would have lasted a lifetime, even if Gua never acted like a human. This shit broke my heart man😪
your comment is exactly what i think ty
I know. They could have at least just kept the chimp. Things would have probably ended quite differently I believe.
Chimps can become quite dangerous once they hit puberty if I'm not mistaken. They long for lots of space to roam, they long for a mate. They are not meant for captivity.
This
Yep how you experiment if you fuck up the childs first year as you said (stunted development) That's a sign that they were not raised like 2 human babies... So the experiment was useless and stupid. .
Shooting off a gun to purposely startle a baby and a chimp? Spinning a child around until he is visibly sickened and in terrible distress? This is so disgusting.
I agree! What about hitting their head with the metal spoon to hear the sound?? That's so mean and unnecessary
@@sofialancerin6958 *_AFTER_* they already knew their bone densities ...
The spinning thing is often done in Cults. Lucaferian, Satanic or even Christian Cults.
This was before there were any ethical guidelines for psychological experiments. Thankfully, these types of experiments and studies would never be allowed today.
Literally like what important information could they be getting from spinning a baby around until he cries?
As someone with POTS, I have a feeling Gua’s disorientation after standing upright for long also had to do with her circulation not being suited for long upright times. She probably got less bloodflow to her head after standing upright for periods that were longer than the chimp’s system were built to handle.
Oh wow that's a great point, I have POTS as well and that idea didn't even enter my mind.
Also, chimpanzees don't have the muscles for it, humans can stand upright because we have a giant ass and thick succulent legs
@@ronalddg9369 😭
I didn’t know this acronym and I thought you just had a lot of pots 😔😔😔
@@pumacatmeow Cooking is dangerous business, Pumacat.
Everyone is talking about how horrible it would have been for gua and i agree 100% but imagine how Donald felt. He was used along side Gua as an experiment child. He never really had a full social development as most of his prime development from infant to toddler were surrounded by experiments.
Imagine having to hear gunshots and getting hit on the head at less than a year old. I think this experiment was pretty cruel, not just to Gua, but also to Donald.
Glad the mother said to terminate it.
its sad that she only wanted it terminated and only saw an issue once donald started grunting. like yes lets fuck both these beings up emotionally and developmentally but got forbid my son says oo oo aa aa
@@DrFeelGoood to be fair that probably didn't mess him up too bad it is indicative of other poor ways they could have mistreated him I mean the bone density smack test is questionable especially after he already had X-ray data
i think it’s horrible for both, but i feel especially bad for the chimp. the kid was with his family and stayed with his family, the chimp was taken away from his family and then taken away from his new family and lived a life full of experimentation. so fucked up.
but the termination was also horrible. Gua was kicked out for the second time because even though the son was a human guinea pig for 9 months, they didn't care, but as soon as 'god forbid' he 'says oo oo aa aa grunt oo grunt aa aa oo' it's gone too far
That’s horribly sad
Imagine having a kid and immediately thinking, “I’m gonna use them as a test subject!” 💀
Poor child 😂😢
Sheldon would think that.
@@swastikadas3104 You mean the one from the big bang theory? if so, I agree with your opinion.
@@jamesxu9258 Yes!!
Bondrewd
It must have also been traumatizing for Donald to lose his sister because she was supposedly "holding him back". This experiment would have been better if they were actually treated more like normal children, and not like some lab rats.
Look up Travis and Sandra Herold if you still think that. Wild animals should be kept in the wild no matter how we feel like we can coexist
@@samueldurazzo5312 Ik not enough ppl are talking about how they just took gua away from her mom
Your wrong this experiment was stupid and cruel and seriously stunted their human son, who committed suicide. Horrible.
@@jbcfamily4802 I never said that it wasn’t cruel
@@jbcfamily4802 and I don’t trust humanity Ik it’s stupid that they did this to their son but that’s just contributes to not trusting humanity
Should have been followed up with another study: How a couple of pseudo-scientist sociopaths respond to living in the gorilla enclosure at the zoo.
Real
@vallecend6855 Science without philosophy is not science at all.
@@dudermcdudeface3674theyre definitely scientists my guy. I get that youre angry and emotional but calling them pseudo scientists just comes off as a petty and low IQ cope
Mad men who are cursed bastard what they are.
Gorillas are actually the gentle giants of the ape kingdom. It's the chimps you gotta watch....
I'd say it's about 6-7. The double separation was exceptionally cruel for Gua, and I think she died due to a weakened immune system from not feeding from her mother, and being raised in a much more sterile environment than the wild. Chimps breastfeed until they're 5, so I feel this has some contribution.
I was worried the whole time that Donald would get badly injured as chimps are much stronger than humans. I grew up hearing about St. James Davis and then Charla Nash...so I'm personally am terrified of primates so I was against it from the start of the video.
I agree Dale,chimpanzees are terrifying creatures,to think years ago people would happily sit and have their photo taken with one whilst on holiday,usually places like Spain,makes my blood run cold.
@@annofcleavers5791 you couldn't pay me enough to sit with one of those demons.
@@nickyblue4866 indeed,stuff of nightmares,they hunt small primates in the wild for fun,tear them apart,etc,I watched a documentary about it,it disturbed me on another level 😳
@LordGoomba Think it killed a human child as well.
I still recall with the story of Travis, The Chimp, broke the news cycle... There was a (rich) kid in my class who had a "pet monkey", though I don't recall what kind. I know they bought it from a lab', while the animal rights activists were actively vandalizing such places... AND I never had much appreciation for the exotic animal trades... Even though all the more government has done is lay hefty fines and require certifications for training on car, maintenance, and handling... (U.S.)
If you enjoy your blood curdling, boiling, and then freezing in your veins in various cycles, I highly recommend you look Travis up along with his "incident"...
I'm NOT particularly terrified of apes, but I'm also a proficient reptile wrangler... so maybe not the best of role-models... I DID obtain my skills in animal handling generally from cleaning up the messes left behind between the exotics trades and the stupid activists who thought it might be a great idea to bust into a lab or storage facility and unlock all the damn cages...
JeeYEEzzzuisss... Sometimes I've found it incrediblly easy to DESPISE the human species. ;o)
I feel so bad for Gua. She was forced apart from her mother, no clue as to why. Then in the gunshot experiment, she had no idea what danger that could have been so her reaction was to seek comfort in the man. Then she was forced apart from her best friend, her brother who she was inseparable from and loved dearly
It seems very odd to me...almost Kelloggish,
How you and others identify or sympathize with the Ape...and not the child.
@@bigalsnow8199 We feel for both of them
@@pablorocky6064
Try forgetting about the ape for a minute...a innocent child was raised with a Chimp because of some Hair-brained experiment conducted on him by those who he depended on. He ended himself in the end. That's more than enough to sympathize with.
@@bigalsnow8199 There's nothing wrong with understanding that an animal is in a bad situation as well as a human.
If a human and their dog are both homeless, we can feel bad for both of them.
It's frankly inhuman how you cannot think of the pain of both the human and the chimp. That poor animal had no idea what was going on and neither did the baby.
@@bigalsnow8199 Like I said, We feel for both! What do you not get about that?
I've read somewhere that the Kellogg ended up deeply regreting the experiment - not because of what it did to their son, but because it prevented him from being taken seriously as a scientist.
I- what the fuck is wrong with him. I at first thought this was cool, but seeing more in the vid this is sick
Imagine almost redeeming yourself and then actually doubling down on how violently disconnected from reality you've become. The ivory tower stretches high.
@@resikin r u serious.....
@@resikin don’t worry we can do that same experiment with you if you’re that excited about this.
@@resikin either you're an actual psychopath with no empathy whatsoever, or a teen who thinks psychopaths are cool so you pretend to be a guy with no empathy.
I feel so bad for Gua and Donald being pulled apart like that. I bet that was so hard for both of them 😢
Yes. That wasn't mentioned. Only that his educational development was late. But not about the effects it would cause both of them later since they were most probably strongly emotionally bonded.
I haven’t read all the comments but is it possible that Donald’s suicide in 1973 could be attributed partially to the death of his parents in 1972? Possibly helped along by the fact that he may have had an abnormal attachment due to being raised in relative isolation w only the parents and some scientists?
I wonder the same thing.
I don't think so, I may be wrong but the video says that the experiment ended in 9 months, so Donald was hardly 2 when that happened and I assume that he went to live a normal human life after that so besides the trauma of having his sister taken away I don't think he was scarred by the experiment
I agree that his suicide could probably be in part attributed to the death of his parents, but probably nothing to do with the experiment necessarily. I think most people get pretty sad when their loved ones pass away, especially if both of their parents die in the same year.
donald was too youn when the expirment ended to suffer any major effects but your probably right that he ended himself because the lose of his parents i know id likely do the same im a shut in hermit if i didnt have any family left it would be total hellish isolation.
@@naty8646 There's a lot of evidence for how much early experiences can play into development of the psyche. Both being so isolated from other humans, as well as having one of those few individuals he did interact with abruptly taken away could definitely have made an impact. That it happened at a time when he couldn't properly verbalise it might even have worsened it's impact, in that it would have been very abstract a trauma and thus difficult to process or even identify in later life. Simply a hard-to-pinpoint sense of isolation, loneliness or anxiety.
To draw from personal experience: After a long period (4 years) of having to entirely repress emotions to survive, and then repressing the _memories_ of this time I've developed issues even isolating basic needs from general anxiety.
When I experience anxiety I have to stop and ask myself if I am hungry, cold, tired etc. I can recognise these things.
"Am I upset about this thing that happened (or is the anxiety spontaneous)?" is much more difficult for me to discern, even though I'm an adult and "the thing" happened the other day or an hour ago.
Even in recognising and treating (with a psychologist) an identified trauma from when I was 4-5 years old, is incredibly difficult. It's a bit likehaving to reach blind into a bag to find potentially dangerous objects through touch.
It’s sad because the bond between Gua and the human boy was actually pretty heartwarming, it might have been cool to see both of them as adults, still having that same bond, though obviously this experiment is still a monstrosity.
Oh they wouldnt have that same bond as adults. Gua would eventually tear Donald's literal whole face off if not kill him. Chimps are extremely dangerous as adults even when raised in the most ethical of circumstances.
@lady jay mac that simple is NOT true.... there was a rehabber who raised his daughter among the primates (albeit their home was separate from the primate enclosures) he had- the one she bonded with the most, was eventually released into the wild ... when she was an adult, she and her father went to try and find him to see how he was doing (as an adult chimp)- they were able to find him and when he approached them, he was very very very gentle with her (even though she was now grown) and still rough (not in a harmful way) with her dad 🤷🏼♀️ Animals understand differences and how to be gentle- if they have a bond since they were young, and were treated well, they will always have that bond and act lovingly toward their human counterparts they bonded with... you can also see some places that try to rehab chimps but are unable to release them- one place, the keeper in charge of the chimps is stuck with the group of chimps sleeping in her bed 🤣🤦♀️ They got used to her having them in her room at night as babies and now that’s where they stay 🤷🏼♀️ Also some primates in the wild kidnap dogs and they don’t kill the dogs (who are much more fragile than them) 🤷🏼♀️ However if a chimp isn’t treated right or doesn’t have social time (as they are social creatures) with other chimps, they will become agitated and act out... if you don’t socialize a human (like genie) they will have similar behaviors
@@LadyLakeland Happened once, under bad circumstance, stop fear mongering.
@@affordablehousing9116 no, chimps definitely rip their prey apart if it is in fact living prey. It's not fear mongering to say chimps are dangerous as adults, it is a fact. "it happened once" what happened once? whatever idea in your head you are referencing? because the op didn't mention a specific event, just warned what the chimp will do. There is not only one time that chimps have ripped living things apart, this is a known habit of theirs. if you mean just attacking humans? just look up chimps attacking humans and you'll find that its more common then the one time you're referencing. most times they're locked up in a cage at a zoo and cant get to you, so its real easy to say they don't attack people, but even then they still do. Educate yourself before trying to discredit factual information.
@@candicecart9786 one can simply say "Humans dont kill animals! i knew a guy who raised a guy who never once killed an animal!" but that doesn't mean that others don't. you knew a guy who raised a gal with a chimp and everyone lived happily ever after, cool, that may happen with quite a bit of people, but the reality is, that doesn't change how dangerous the animal is.
I think a huge fault of this experiment is how late they were on receiving the baby chimp. 7 months a lot of development missed, and her being raised by her own kind in those first several months would for sure impact the experiment. I know this for certain, since without even knowing I did something very similar. I have been raising baby cats for a long time now, and about a year ago my family found an abandoned kitten, who was still breastfeeding and could barely crawl. We bottle fed him, bathed him (he was extremely messy), and loved him a lot. He quickly understood that I and my family were basically his parents, and as he grew it became more and more apparent. What was the most noticeable change, was actually his form of speech. He wasn't exposed to other cats until his early teens, so his only reference for how he should sound was us speaking to him. Now he never meows, he simply makes "ahhs" and chirping noises. Much like a chimp (which is pretty funny to us, since we named him monkey lol). He would even scream a high pitched "ahhhh!" when he was upset by something. But to finish this example in explaining why they messed up before the experiment even began, is because a couple months after adopting monkey, we found a young malnourished kitten in front of our driveway coming home one night. She was unresponsive due to starvation and dehydration, but after a couple days of eating proper she started gaining her strength back. However, while she was raised by us early on in her life, she clearly was past breastfeeding when we found her, so her reactions and attitude were comparably different to Monkey's. She can meow, although chooses to do chirps around Monkey when they play. The two have different temperaments since they are two different cats, but the way they vocalize themselves is very different. They both have grown very attached to us, regardless. But yeah seeing this video reminded me a lot of that.
I loved how you explain that brotha
Can you upload a video of the cats making these noises you're describing, I can't imagine it.
@@goblinbollocks2838 yeah I could try! I think it would be a funny video plus I can see what other people think of it.
Dude I grew up on a farm 81 acres no internet until I was 20 I'm 28. Lots of cats and dogs around me I know exactly what you mean. About how they act completely different.
I'm not reading that essay....tf wrong with you???
Donald died in 1973… “both” parents died in 1972, unusual and we’re not told how they passed. Regardless, the loss of one parent would be stressful enough, so I’m sure the loss of both added immensely to whatever other high stressors were weighing on him. What a sad and reckless experience.
Discoer the cover or else
@@oliveoliveolive8980?
@@oliveoliveolive8980?
@@oliveoliveolive8980?
@@oliveoliveolive8980?
This happend in Norway not even long ago. It wasn't an experiment though. A chimpanzee in the Kristiansand Zoo was rejected by his mother as a baby and the zoo director took him in with his family. Julius (The ape) Was raised alongside the director's kids and was treated like a human child. When Julius grew older the family tried introducing him back with the other chimpanzees several times without luck. Eventually, the leader of the chimpanzees died and Julius took the spot as leader. To this day he is probably what the Zoo is most famous for, and whenever the old Zoo director and his family comes to visit Julius he gets visibly excited.
Julius is a national treasure for us Norwegians
The good ending
So thats where Rise of the Planet Apes got their inspiration
@@FadazMada no, it's clearly inspired by that, since julius is the first name of Caesar, and the new movies are just remakes of the ones from 1970's
@@wilhelmu whaa...sorry to disappoint you, but the movies from 2011 to 2017 are not remakes of the ones form 1968 to 1973; the ones from 2011 to 2017 are Origins to the ones from 1968 to 1973. @Fadaz in the first saga, the apes ruling the world venerate the ancestor who liberated them from the opression of the humans, and was called Caesar; so, yes, everything's related, but inspired in a different way.
I feel bad for Gua. You can tell she wanted love and after being taken from her mother she found it in the Kellogg family… only to feel like part of the family before taken away again.
I feel bad for Donald
@@frasier9499 the Kelloggs ruined two perfectly good kids
I'm not sure how much love she'd have felt 😥
@@algofire no, they ruined one kid and one animal my man
There's a difference
@@matthiasknerl4272 to me, animal is young = kid
not necessarily a word for humans only, btw what does this change anyway? what's your point?
That’s really sad that the Kelloggs evicted Gua once she wasn’t of use to them anymore. Were they not attached to her after months of treating her like their baby? The Kelloggs seem like terrible parents, not just to the chimp but to their human baby. Kids shouldn’t be their parent’s scientific experiments.
What kind of parents would fire a gun a few feet behind a toddlers head? No, they were terrible people by most metrics.
IF you actually watched the video you would know the reason they evicted her is due to concerns of their son
@@generaljuno6895
Even if they didn't evict her, she's still a wild animal. She would've had to be taken out eventually because they're not a domesticated species, and it takes years to achieve this. Some domestic species like hamsters still function closer to their wild parts. And other, when largely untamed, like lizards, exhibit wild animal behavior too. The difference is these have been continuously bred..some ethical and unethical to ward off wild traits. We know they require training but we can’t yield out every genetic trait.
@@generaljuno6895 And those concerns should have meant not doing the experiment in the first place.
yeah early on in the video i realised they probably didnt love their kids...
I lost track of the number of times I sarcastically said "Almost like it evolved to survive in a rainforest environment."
Imagine being the worst parents in the world for two different species
Unreal 😮
I daresay there are a lot of people watching this who think the same. Poor little ones.
that's far from worst parents in the world. it's not exactly good parents either but even in social care, where you aren't related, you develop affection towards the people you support, so the carers probably loved both the child and the ape. Yet there are crazy parents out there doing wayy worse things to their own children
Could have should have Eugenics is making a comeback you sound like you're on board
THIS
The premise of the experiment is false. Children ‘raised’ by wolves aren’t fully included in the pack, it seems they were treated more like the runt and an outsider. Looking at the details the children were often fed by locals and weren’t fully wild. The fact they were human means they couldn’t fully behave like wolves, which is exactly what was found in this case.
They are canines. Runts and outsiders are treated like family (unless the mother thinks it won't be able to survive). Also, how would the wolves feed the child? Children cannot eat wolf food.
That being said, adult humans can do live with wolves. They can feed themselves quite well and can help the pack by carrying loads, defending puppies, and especially breaking bones for marrow. Probably some hunter-gathers joined a wolf pack or small group for protection when they had nothing better to do.
That makes sense. Our senses aren't nearly as strong, so of course we'd be seen as weaker in a sense.
@@TeamFriendship8600 Except touch. We are great with touch. Also the weird body position sense. Walking fully erect is hard.
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana My point is we're just not physically evolved for surviving in the wild. It's just a natural result of favoring intelligence over physical endurance.
@@TeamFriendship8600 On our own as children. As adults or in a group we are fine, although often miserable.
I think the main issue in this experiment was that they focused too much on the experiment itself.
If Gua and Donald were socialized around more people, especially developing children, I'm certain it would have been much more productive.
I agree. Both “children” weren’t treated like children. They were treated like experiments. If they wanted to fully immerse Gua into human behavior, more human connection would’ve been necessary.
@@erika89765 true but honestly it's probably for the best that they didn't can you imagine gua getting over-stimulated at a social event
@@Pandie2828 Very fair point. I don’t think the experiment was a good idea in the first place. My only thoughts were that they were too deep in to back out by the place they were at. Would’ve led to a lot of heartache whether Gua stayed or left after that long of being raised as a human.
It would've been cool if they were raised side-by-side together but sadly that never happened.
@@Pandie2828 Could slowly introduce gua to bigger groups of people
Scientifically, this is not a comparison because the chimp was traumatized at 7 months by being removed from his mother. The human child did not have that kind of trauma (although being a test subject must be traumatic).
Chimps don't stand upright because of anatomy and physiology. This is cruel.
The name Kellogg has been synonymous with craziness... the whole sugar and fat lie started with Kellogg...
While I think the experiment was questionable at best, I don't think Donald even knew the concept of an experiment at that age, hence it wouldn't have affected him until much later.
@@huldu you dont need to understand whats happening to you for it to be traumatic
@@amyisreallybored I was talking about him at a young age(infant/toddler), it's not until you're older the ghosts come out and haunt you. I think it's about perception and when you're younger and a teenager you aren't mentally developed enough to understand things that happened. As you get older that's when it starts to hit you and understanding it is the only help to move forward.
What is the surgar and fat lie ? , I've never heard of it
@@memener8020 fat being the dietary enemy of humanity and not sugar, the real problem
I can't help but imagine there's a man walking around a ''currently sunny'' corner of South-East England looking precisely like your profile picture .
Thought you were gonna say “wearing a top hat and glasses looking very much like a chimp”
Dont forget, hes named John.
To be fair, that's not the worst description of a large proportion of men in south east England 🤷♀️
You wouldn't believe how long it takes to show people his phone number on his patented phone number scale.... 👆
@Lola Briggada name jeff
This is disgusting. It's both child AND animal abuse. It gave me the chills watching this video. All they had to do was be loving parents to two living babies and that would've been experiment enough but instead they treated both of them like objects. Truly disturbing. Are all Kelloggs psychopaths?
Maybe they are all related and have a defective Kellogg sociopathic gene.
soooyyyyyy
Kelloggs are FRUIT LOOPS! 🤨
What kind of person can conduct these detestable experiments?
This seems more like sociopathic behavior, but I guess I'm splitting hairs a bit on that one.
I find it hard to imagine the Kelloggs didn't try to experiment on Donald in other ways. I just know that poor kid had a terrible upbringing and I can't even imagine how difficult Gua's last bit of time was. She was subjected to even more experiments and probably had no idea what happened to her "brother" and "parents". She had found what she thought was her new family and they turned out to be cruel. It truly seems like Gua and Donald were each other's only comfort
It’s crazy how people consider Donald’s suicide unexplained
@@laylalehlani6951 Perhaps it was the loss of his parents a year before? It's not easy for a man alone to continue on after both of their parents have pass on. Something I'm dealing with now. I would say the loss of his parents had more effect then experiments he probably doesn't remember. Of course perhaps you can say the parents poor raising of their child was the reason he couldn't find a wife and have a family of his own (I'm assuming this since the video didn't mention if he ever married). At the very least the kid would have been deaf by the age of 50. Never fire a gun near a child.
@@JimmyMon666 so the entirety of Europe was deaf by the 90s?
@@AndrewBrowneryes also aint no way u defending shooting guns next to babies ears💀💀
They weren't cruel. You seem to be letting your imagination get the better of you.
Imagine having a kid and going: "OMG! YES! Now I can make it grow up with a chimp and deprive it from normal human interactions ruining both lives forever! YASS!"
But did they? The video didn't say that they intentionally deprived either of human interaction. The video suggests they tried to raise both as humans, that was the entire point. All the grotesque atrocities, exploitation, social engineering and dishonesty in contemporary life, and people whinge about THIS video?
This is heartbreaking. The poor Gau ripped from from her parents to be thrown in to a human lifestyle which obviously she wouldn't adapt to or achieve that of a human child. Then ripped away again. She had no immune system from her mother so no wonder she died like that. She must of felt tortured her whole life. The child wasn't raised as a child, he and Gau were both experiments at a crucial age of their lives and both suffered emotionally.
The Kelloggs are evil people whether they had known it or not. Gau wasn't returned to her parents either. Soul-sucking bastards.
I know. This made me so mad
@@noweare1 yep and they were most certainly Christians
Who gives a fucking shit?
@@BlazRa Thanks for the useless information
This is so sad and disgusting. I read about this experiment and came upon this: "They even tried to convince Gua not to eat soap bubbles by jamming a bar of the product into her mouth." it's so sad, I feel so bad for Gua and Donald. They both were the subject of a CLEARLY abusive experiment that should have never been done in the first place because this is technically child and animal abuse. Rest in peace to Donald and Gua.
I agree 100% this is so sad. They didn’t raise them as a human child because they didn’t raise them with love or affection.
My mum used to wash out my mouth with soap is that not normal
@@katiefield3396 my dad used to threaten it. But it never happened. I'm pretty sure it's not normal.
@@katiefield3396it shouldn't be, that's fucked up bro
My parents washed my mouth out with soup whenever I said a bad word. I would never do that but it is normal.
You’re telling me that those people nurtured and loved a chimpanzee for 9 months and then just let her go ?
How cruel can one be.
Cruel enough to never socialize their own damn child and raise them as "siblings" with an ape in some hairbrained experiment which discovered what everyone already knew for millennia; animals and humans have intrinsic differences in intelligence and sociability.
And completly neglecting their own HUMAN child is some how less cruel
I don't think they nurtured and loved either of them. Or at least not Gua.
Lol this was 1932 … people didnt treat animals as humans in the west except in experiments
@@scruffmcgruff03 such a shitty argument. It’s like saying “it was 2022 cops didn’t trade blacks equal back then, so no biggie”
Their experiment failed because they didn’t watch SpongeBob so they never learned what the secret ingredient was, love
Would you consider leaving on 2 tables lamps with 2 different types of bulbs and seeing which lamp burns out first, an experiment?. :
Well yes, if there is a thesis that you want to prove or disprove@@oliveoliveolive8980
This is heartbreaking.. she had no idea why she wasn't able to be what they wanted her to be and then her brother, the person she loved the most, was ripped away from her.. she probably thought she was being punished for not being good enough
Honestly thats terrible at that point you're in it together, family to be tossed out like that, fuckin a dude that wasn't right
*was
I doubt they rationalized something that intricate but there had to be some incredible distress for sure
You're thinking too much
@@thehorde4868 Not necessarily, chimpanzees have similarly to humans very complex social behaviours and as such the capability to properly experience and process them, that is why emotionally Gua was developing quite similarly to Donald. The thought of being punished is questionable, however it is most certain that being suddenly ripped away from her family was a very traumatic experience.
I feel so bad for both children. Imagine growing and learning and bonding with your sibling only for them to be torn away from you without explanation.
6:41 the way Gua looks for reassurance from the doctor after such a loud sound behind him is one of the saddest and sweetest things I have seen.
@ghost mall you feel better now?
@@Thehoneybadger117 do you? 😆
true
@@killer_queen4062 do you? 😆
@@2Meows do you?
A scientist who had more love for his professional intrigues than he had for his family. You can't raise a monkey like you can raise a human if you can't even raise a child right in the first place.
Chimpanzees are apes, not monkeys.
In some areas, a chimp obviously has faster physical developments than a human. It just baffles me that the researchers just tried to ignore these different stages of development. The human and chimp developmental timelines just don't perfectly mirror each other. What useful scientific findings can come from this?
Honestly I doubt wolves would ignore the developing rate of a human, we physically develop quite a bit slower and I'm sure when wolves raised human children they took notice of that and accepted that the humans would figure it out at their own pace.
Why would we raise a chimp as the exact same pace as a child when they physically developed faster? If it wasn't an experiment and someone really took in a chimp that was in need they more than likely would work with the chimp at the chimps pace.
I think it goes to show how much of a difference evolution has made. Modern humans don't need things like higher bone density because we don't have to brave the same conditions that other primates do.
@@brattrox2939 Chimps don’t develop all that faster or faster in all areas. For one thing, they continue to drink their mother’s breast milk until they are about five years old, and compared to 18, it takes them about 13 - 15 years to mature. This entire experiment was so strange and cruel, especially to Gua, who was ripped from her family at such a young age.
@@TeamFriendship8600 It's a theory
Because these scientists believe humans were once apes.
I feel so bad for both children. When they were separated it must have been so traumatic for both of them. Especially for poor little Gua who was simply sent to be tortured and killed somewhere else, probably never fully understanding why she was taken from both families she had known.
This was so needlessly cruel.
Those Yerkes labs earned a terrible reputation for cruelty.
one is not a child. its a monkey.
@@strawberrie6491 and that makes this ok somehow?
Also you're wrong, she was a chimpanzee, therefore an ape, not a monkey.
Chimpanzees are our closest genetic relative. Which is probably exactly why they chose a chimp for their deranged experiment. Chimps are literally the closest thing in nature to a human.
So chimp or not, it was a child. A small child that had no understanding of why she was ripped away from her mother, tortured, then ripped away from the only affection she had da known in her life
@Pixie Souter don't feed the troll. it's sad when people who lack social empathy for other living being like them crop up. straight cringe
@strawberrie I know this will be mind blowing.....but you don't have to think one is more important than the other to feel empathy for another sentient being who does have feelings, social awareness, language, and family bonds. I know, shocking! point being you only further highlighting that you aren't worth continuing to have any meaningful conversation with, but I did it anyways because I hope something clicks for you. it probably won't but I'm optimistic in humans changing with maturity and time 😊 bye bye now.
at first i thought "aw, thats cute that they are treating a pet as their own child." and i was SO wrong
There were so many interesting tidbits from this, mostly the points where the chimp outperformed the human at some phase of development. Shows that nature is not wasteful and our vaunted capabilities may well come at a cost. But of course we could have gotten that by just doing some normal experiments with animals of various ages and comparing them to what we see in pediatric development, and a sample size of 1 or 2 makes any experiment useless.
Most mammals, including other primates, are born at a later development stage than humans are, because of the size of a human baby's head. It's not surprising that the chimp developed faster in physical skills and social/emotional intelligence -- these traits would be essential to survival in the wild. But humans nurture their babies in a much safer environment, and the human brain needs more time to develop because we are much more complicated cognitively than chimps are.
We've known for a long time now that human development comes at a huge cost and is extremely slow. Most animals are born at least somewhat self sufficient or develop some degree of self sufficiency extremely quickly.
The problem is our enormous heads and tiny pelvises. Humans have to be born extremely early (comparatively) because otherwise our heads couldn't fit through our pelvises. In turn that means infants are nearly useless and require years of investment before any reasonable degree of independence is developed.
It's super interesting really, the trade off between our intelligence/brain size and the utter and sheer uselessness of our infants. Doesn't take a genius to see that most animals are juvenile for at most a couple years, whereas humans can barely be self sufficient if needed in their mid teens, and our development isn't generally complete till our late teens.
There's a lot of evolutionary biology and theories as to how this happened. Did our brains get too big too fast, was the trade off worth it (ie more years spent raising a kid = higher success rate even if it's a significantly riskier/costlier endeavor), why are our births so relatively risky, etc etc.
tl;dr a lot of it is due to our comparatively large brain/head size. Babies have to be so young and useless because otherwise birth would literally be impossible
Of course answering these questions also doesn't really require ethically dubious and scientifically non-sense studies like these.
@@nexaentertainment2764 if I recal correctly it's not quite so simple as head size alone, more that head size is a proxy for brain size, and that there's a hard limit to the amount of energy that a mother can provide through the placenta, and brain, being energetically expensive is kinda the limiting part.
Thus the baby somewhat self equalizes with the size of the given mother's hips, otherwise, due to natural variations in size( smaller mother bigger father) you'd see more instances of a clash.
Which explains why human babies are also *physically* underdeveloped, weak, helpless - so many resources are being dedicated to brain, that there's not much left over for the rest of the body.
The pelvis indirectly puts limits to the size of the brain, and the size of the brain thus also puts limits on the rest of the body
"a sample size of 1 or 2 makes any experiment useless"
This right here! A sample size of 1 is basically just anecdotal evidence--it's nothing you can develop any real conclusions on. Seems like the only thing any of this would be useful for is to suggest additional avenues (hypotheses) worth exploring with much more extensive and rigorous research/study (at best).
@@nexaentertainment2764 *age 25ish
As Gua had spent 7.5 months with her natural parents, I'd assume she had learned things like the nest making from them and had retained that knowledge!
That’s right because at 7 months she was already further along the development path than a human she was probably like 2 in ape years. How could the scientists not compare the life span and cycles and account for such variables? No wonder they weren’t taken seriously.
Lol the media probably loved them though. What tabloid fodder. still is to this day.
Or that was something built into her by her Creator. Bees have abilities we humans do not have… not learned or figured out intellectually… but endowed by their Creator.
@@joan-mariecourneya3719 exactly
Or if you read too much sci-fi, it may be "Morphogenic Fields".
Not necessarily, most times, parents build their nest prior to having children
What ended the experiment sounded like big bias. The experiment shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I'm inclined to believe there was a lot of "The stupid chimp was supposed to get smarter, not make MY son dumber!"
Honestly both of the kids acted pretty normally given the situation. Donald, as stated in the video, was being socially stunted more because he didn't have many peers outside of Gua, so of course he started mimicking Gua. Gua seemed to develop normally for the most part, poor gal learned to be ashamed of not following human norms but otherwise was doing pretty well actually considering her biology definitely got in the way of doing some tasks.
I give the experiment a 4. Was very stupid and unnecessary but it seemed like a majority of the time they were living relatively normal lives. Poor Gua didn't deserve to be experimented on more, nor should have since she'd be such a big outlier from other chimps at that point.
I don’t understand why Donald didn’t go to school. Or didn’t play with his cousins more. Or neighborhood kids. Gua probably didn’t have anything to do with his stunting. But yeah not the cruelest thing that happened here. But quite unnecessary and traumatizing for the chimp.
@@fellipedasilva99 "I don't understand why Donald didn't go to school"
did you even pay attention to how old he was???
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan I don’t know, early preschool? I’m not American so I don’t know how early school starts there. I know it starts very early with something like pre school. I also know most Americans don’t associate with their cousins much which is strange.
@@fellipedasilva99 Preschool starts at 3, this kid was less than 2
The guy hit his son on the head with a spoon despite already knowing both human and ape skull hardness. I don't think he cares about his son, at least while he is young.
The parents should have been charged with child and animal abuse. It was a cruel experiment.
It sounds like you have a problem with mistreating monkeys. So you’re vegan right?
Did it occur to them to try teaching Gua sign language? It seems like the experiment was only looking for spoken language but I think that the limiting factor in that respect may be that Chimpanzees don't possess the larynx structure to speak.
There's a very interesting video about this. ruclips.net/video/e7wFotDKEF4/видео.html
That is exactly against the experiment. They had to teach BOTH the ape and child the SAME way. They would have to do an entirely separate experiment to do that, otherwise this one would be inconclusive as per how it was designed.
@@ZazooEel57 In otherwords, a flawed experiment, as Plainly suggested, the real human kid didn't even need to be involved. There is high probability that a Chimp has the mental capacity to speak(it understood more words than the human kid) but just never could because learning won't overcome physical limitations.
@@milksheihk yes, my thoughts exactly! It’d be like comparing the mental capabilities of a deaf child or child with damage to their vocal chords to one without those physical limitations. It’s inaccurate. It’s biased. It’s just plain wrong. I feel so bad for Donald an especially Gia, who was not only uprooted twice and denied a normal chimp upbringing, but who also was made to feel shame for not being a human.
Some apes can speak *some* words. There is even a video from a zoo with a lady asking a grown male chimp to say "mommy" in exchange for sweets. And he clearly said it, you can look it up.
Rather than them being incapable, I think speaking is just too unnatural(well duh) and inconvinient for them. It's also more complex than sign so.
I'm gonna try to keep it short, but tell you about the same thing being done in Norway in the 80's. Definitely a much happier story!
So in December 1979 the chimpanzee Julius was born in Kristiansand Zoo. His finger got bit off, and his mother did NOT care, she completely rejected him from the family. The director of the zoo decided to take Julius to the doctor, get him proper treatment, and then take him home. Julius lived with Edvard Moseid and his family for almost 5 years, together with Moseid's two daughters. (Funfact: my mom went to the same school as the sisters, same year as one of them)
They wanted to give him a safe space to grow up, but also wanted to reunite him back to the pack. They made a tv show about him, and he is the most famous animal in Norway of all time. After about 5 years they tried to reunite him, as he was getting more aggressive. It didn't work as planned, so he was isolated in the zoo, until the leader of the pack died - then he was welcomed back with the others.
He is still alive as of now, 2022. 42 years old, and the leader of the pack. He still gets super excited when "mom" and "dad" and his "sisters" come to visit.
Good job fam, you cheered me up after this shitpit of a story ruined my good mood
Good story! Thanks for sharing
That wasn't an experiment - that was good old fashioned caring. Works for all species, as far as I know. :)
Around 16:30, the experiment noted the child's inability to say words, but mimicked Gua's grunts. I've seen this firsthand. An older child had a lisp, which the mother failed to acknowledge. The younger sibling began to pronounce words similarly. It was sad that the mom refused speech therapy for the older child, thus both children suffered. The logic of this experiment was valid, but ultimately, the development timeline of the 2 species was not compatible.
Im seeing this happen fist hand. First child had autism, on top of a traumatic brain injury in infancy, on TOP OF being neglected by his parents and refused any verbal help. he was sat in front of a tv all hours of the day when he wasnt being loaded in the car and dropped off at grandmas house for the entire weekend.
Parents didnt raise child number 1 so they figured having a second would be easy enough. Grandma started to refuse babysitting for so long, forcing parents to have to see the consequences of their actions.
child number 1 will only scream, growl, roar, say "kay" when prompted or forced, and the only words he says are things and sounds he memorizes from movies-- he doesnt understand a single thing hes saying. he's 6.
child number 2 has no autism, brain injury, etc. all she does is scream, whine, say "okay", and "go go go". She is four.
meanwhile, my other nieces and nephews (all of whom are between 2-3) can speak FULL SENTENCES. I can genuinely have a conversation with two of my other nephews and one of my other nieces.
I know you arent supposed to compare childrens development-- But there is a point when it isnt "late blooming" it's neglect.
both of the parents regularly complain about how "much" the kids are, how big of failures they are, how much theyre lacking. The mother will often roll her eyes and say "yep. thats my kid" with so much regret in her eyes as she looks at child 2 scream and roll on the floor because someone looked at her wrong.
@@audrey2658 this is actually scary. Poor children 😞
@@audrey2658 so upsetting. When you said it’s not late blooming it’s neglect, fr I can’t believe I’d never realized that. Every child deserves an attentive loving parent :(
@@audrey2658 this kind of happened to me, i never properly learned how to do most things because my dad is a drug addict and alcoholic and my mom worked too much and spent too much time away from home. then my dad left us when i was 6. i spent most of my childhood mute until i got into online games and started learning english. now i know english better than my actual language. but i also got diagnosed with bpd and started abusing drugs and alcohol. now the internet is my life because its the only place i really got love from my friends. and i am happy i have them but i cannot function in the real world and my parents hate me for causing problems for them, but i was raised this way. i wish i was born into a normal family
There are a lot of really little things and big things as well like that that can really change a lot for a kid growing up because it just becomes a habit or a lifestyle. It's basically the reason we don't show violent movies or swear a lot around really young kids who are still at the impressionable ages because they get to a point where they'll start swearing a lot, or they'll think violence is OK, or anything like that because that's just how they grew up.
19:21 this poor kid is screaming from going around in circles and they just kept spinning him?
This is just so cruel. This isn’t raising a kid like a “normal” kid this is just testing and experimenting and traumatizing for them.
@Chronic videos hitting them on the head as infants maybe?
@Chronic videos oh I don’t know. Maybe experimenting on a baby? .-.
@Chronic videos bruh they shot a gun and bopped em on the head and probably caused emotional damage from separating the two babies. Your supposed watch over and express your love for your kid.
They're too young to remember it
@@lillygames6117 but they did not shot the children? It was for the reaction. And from the sound volume it would be the same as if we take babies to fireworks today. Not that dramatic I think. Hitting them is not good Indeed, but there are some medical tests were infants get "hit" on the head to controll behavior (for example when the child fell on their head)
"For this experiment, we will treat both of them as equals as if they were raised in a human family"
*Proceeds to equally treat them as test subjects instead of actual children*
*The experiment is so shortsighted. They could've easily just taught them both sign language alongside actual spoken words (mainly for Donald to develop speech normally, and for Gua's hearing comprehension). Really sad how it ended for them.*
I really do think that she could have learned sign language
@@scaredlobster they can!
Years of research with multiple approaches indicate that chimpanzees and gorillas can't learn comprehensive speech (abstract thinking requires a high grade of cognitive performance)
ruclips.net/video/e7wFotDKEF4/видео.html
I think this was before Washoe experiment so it didnt occur to people chimps could learn to sign
I think actually the idea to teach chimps sign language came from looking at the results of this experiment and realizing Gua tried to communicate physically
I’d give it 9/10 because an informed written consent hadn’t been obtained from Gua’s parents.
When you said that this non-human species was taught to do everything ONLY in the "human way", it was an indication that things won't turn out good for the chimpanzee. When you try to force an animal to do anything but be itself, it'll get frustrated and find an outlet, whatever that may be. Maybe this wasn't the case for this situation, but it still resulted in the Gua suffering in the end.
A chimpanzee can kill me. Let that sink in. Or steal shit from me and rhn away and theres literally.... Nothing i can do about it XD
From what I understand of people who keep chimps as ill-advised pets, training and discipline generally seems to go pretty smoothly while it's a child. Things tend to go sideways when the chimp hits sexual maturity, and then that frustration finds its outlet in attacking a human.
Donald had already developed object permanence when Gua was taken away. Having a sibling die is traumatic but to lose one in such an early stage of development must have been unfathomable.
@ Cat People that's right, but in the moment, they realized it.
@ Cat People actually its insanely easy for people at that age to gain permanenet lifelong trauma
@ Cat People Oh sweetheart. You’re misunderstanding how trauma effects the psyche. There’s a reason silent gen and boomers are so stunted lol,
@ Cat People some parents think like that and treat children like object because "he wont remember this so its ok." Pls dont think like that. Even if someone wont remember anything its not ok to hurt them.
@ Cat People That's incredibly wrong lol.
I love how the whole point of this experiment was to see if a chimp would become more human-like if it were raised just like a human child.
Yet they didn’t even raise their own human child normally so how on earth was that gonna work?
*If you’re gonna do an experiment like this maybe you should’ve just done it with two normal parents and not two mad scientists.*
Hit the nail on the head. I wonder if Donald ever got frustrated and threw with shit
Yo Hive player
@@mikitesfaye8079 Yes, he committed suicide.
@@blipvfx Ayo! No way!
@@huntercool2232 what were the chances
It’s really sad how they just abandoned her like that
I'm surprised that pretty much nobody is pointing out how big of a problem it is that Gua only joined the family when she was 7.5 months old. I think that's the biggest issue with the experiment, one which completely negates its significance. Either use a newborn or don't run the experiment at all. It's pointless to do it when the chimpanzee has already lived with her parents for 7.5 months and was taught to act like chimpanzee, only then to be forcibly brought up as a human. I guess the "researchers" back then were grossly underestimating how much children can and do learn before they start talking, even in first months of their lives...
This is what I was thinking too!
Exactly
Want to see more Dark Side of Science? Have any suggestions let me know below?
Oh oh oh!!! This is the "Reject humanity, return to monke" experiment.
Absolutely! These are the best
The Aversion Project, Hisashi Ouchi, Unit 731, David Peter Reimer
Ashley babbitt was killed over A big lie.
Have you done the triplets separated for science yet?
Why did they have to use a revolver specifically to test a reaction time? That could seriously hurt a kid’s ears, let alone a monkey. They’re lucky they didn’t deafen that poor kid when they let it off so close to them. A simple loud clap woulda done the same effect
Oh you innocent adult
@@richterman3962 explain?
@@kawaiilotus .
@@richterman3962 wdym
@@richterman3962 I'm pretty sure you're referring to kids who live in bad neighborhoods, yes? If so, Freya's point still makes sense. There is no need to subject a child or ape to the sound of a gunshot when any sound would work. Making this point doesn't mean someone is innocent or sheltered, they just aren't gonna subject their child to gunshots for no reason. That does more harm than good.
You gotta be kidding to rate the ethical measure of this experiment at 5 or 6! The idea was theoretically ineresting, but the inherent cruelty with which it was carried out was enormous. I feel for Gua and for Donald.
The fact that Donald grew up to study psychiatry should speak volumes on how his whole upbringing affected his life. He was probably trying to understand why humans could do that to animals and other humans.
Psychiatry is more about the identification and diagnosis of mental illnesses, not so much focused on the “why” they arise, but focused on “how” to treat them.
Maybe they were inspired to help others because of the unique experience he had
Bro I thought you were me, I was questioning if I had Alzheimer’s cuz I never recalled watching this video nor commenting for that matter
@@emaadawazem6971god bless
that would make him want to be a psychologist, not a psychiatrist that focuses on learning the treatment and not necessarily trying to identify cause
@@uva19274 I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Psychiatrists will diagnose patients and medicate them accordingly, they are less so there to create a strong connection with the patient and more so trying to address the issue at hand. A Psychologist is not licensed to give medication to any individual.
This is why I said in response to the original comment, which is speculative in of its self and my response is also speculative; that he would most likely not be focused on the "why humans could do that", because if that were the case then they would have gone into the field of psychology/cognitive sciences to research human behavior, instead they've studied already found empirical data that allows them to become a doctor and then be able to give treatment to individuals who need it.
So, no he is a psychiatrist because of whatever reason but if he cared for the "why" then he would have been a researcher, but he is not so its hard to assume that he was hung up on the why.
"They would be raised exactly as a human child would."
>Proceeds to fire a revolver behind the children to see if they would react differently.
I'm sorry?
Guess you never lived in a bad neighborhood.
@@MementoMoriGrizzly guns can cause hearing damage! Obviously the sound of a gun next to your ear is way different from a distance gun shot. The problem isn’t exactly the gun itself but rather the fact that they would go so far to the extent of hearing damage to achieve their goal, when you can accomplish literally the same thing by popping a balloon.
@@MementoMoriGrizzly yeah, bc guns are illegal where I live 💀
@@108wee or just clapping would do lol
@@queeenie *Acting as if just because something is outlawed means no individual can obtain it.
Fun fact: Most gun use in the US is actually not by the firearms registered owner, but rather by someone who acquired the firearm either "off the books" (bought it from another citizen and thus papers never changed properly) OR acquired it illegally (knowingly went to a black market dealer to purchase one).
How horrible that Gua was continuously ripped away from love as if she was without any feeling. Being poked, prodded, and admonished as if insignificant. I'm sure Gua was incredibly depressed. Apparently, Donald became depressed as well. As seen with all animal experimentation, human arrogance exhibits such emptiness.
Biggest difference... the animals treated them as family to protect, we treated them like experiements... its a human flaw of ours
My grandmother was a scientist who researched the development of children and how they think to find out ways to improve the school system. Her experiments, however, did not involve banging children with spoons to see how they reacted or firing a gun. Hers were things like looking at a picture and talking about what we saw - she used to do this with my sister and I when we were children.
Exactly. This experiment is quite unethical.
I dont know why firing gun was necessary
Kids also react if we clap or throw something heavy on the floor
They could have recorded their reaction without destroying their weak ear drums
I think these A holes did all that to get more media attention
"Looking and pictures and asking what you saw" aka a Rorschach test?
@@LadyLakeland No Rorschach is not used in kids development. For kids, you usually show drawings with more or less details and ask if they can explain what is happening. Like someone cooking, sleeping in bed etc... You can see there their ability to explain a situation and how much they understand causality (cooking, because I'm hungry, sleeping because it's the night) etc... You can also of course, use drawings to see what they can find in the picture (roughly, where's waldo), but to check the understanding of color or numbers (how many pink rabbits, find a sleeping rabbit etc..)
@@Choucheeeenn well said
I feel for the child more than anything. He basically born to be a test subject...
Then again, I feel for Gua too I just can't relate the same way.
I imagine it was very difficult and potentially damaging to let go of one another so suddenly. They loved eachother and being raised as siblings, were extremely close. So while Gua was no doubt traumatized in some way by losing her mama and then the adopted "family" or more or less most likely her big brother.
Sad....
I can't help but feel more for Gua, At least Donald got to live a full life with parents that truly seemed to care for him, even if in some very fucked up ways. Gua got nothing but trauma and pneumonia... Poor baby just needed a hug, a kiss, and a proper home.
"Truly seemed to care for him....in...fucked up ways" ?!?!? Guess what that equals you dolt?! ABUSE!! And it is not caring at all!! I suspect his idiot parents were major narcissists, especially given they were into eugenics like Bill Gates' father! And look how Bill turned out!!
@@Slivertrust I completely agree. Imagine being ripped from your family, forced to work against your nature by weird creatures, hit, startled, embarrassed, and then just abandoned when you were no longer considered useful to the people you've basically stockholmed into loving.
I bet the trauma and stress is what lead to the pneumonia.
Donald's well being was what caused the experiment to end. Nobody gave a single crap about what was going on with Gua.
Who asked????
@@driftr5174 attention seeker
How cruel. Poor Gua. Gua trusted and thought of them as her family. Did you see her reaction after the gun shot. She crawled to her 'family' for support. And their own son used like this...so unethical.
It's just an animal...
Jesus Christ you people can overreact.
According to all reports neither Donald nor Gua were psychologically affected by their separation or by spending 9 months together as infants. You know? Those things that have almost no brain capacity and who won't remember anything until about 2-3 years old depending on the individual?
You people are probably all fucking meat eaters and want to talk about morality? Get lost.
@@theshushu7940 could go for some bacon and eggs thanks chief
@@AndrD1406 ok
@@AndrD1406 no it's a living thing with feelings
The worst part is how both children were separated from each other after just 9 months. That's truly heartbreaking after the bond they formed.
Any time someone with the name Kellogg says the want to do experiments it should automatically be declined and looked into to see what kind of f'd up torture they want to perform.
Right. Has a Kellogg ever given the world anything good?
@@AirQuotes The cereals are dubious, some rankings have them being "the best for ethics" (but this seems to be based on kellogg's self reporting) then others have them sourcing palm oil from illegally farmed sources, misleading advertising on actual levels of salt and sugars in their cereals (and subsequent loss of two class action lawsuits) and recently fired 1400 employees who were striking for a fair wage.
@@cmotdibbler4454 and the whole circumcision thing
@@AirQuotes he (John Harvey) was a fan of genital mutilation of both sexes, he wrote women should have Carbolic acid applied to their clitoris.
@@AirQuotes pop tarts, rise krispy treats, froot loops, apple jacks?
Of course Donald took his own life. Imagine being raised in this way. That detail at the end didn't shock me at all. Poor guy, and poor Gua. She died so soon after leaving their family, almost certainly from a weakened immune system
I doubt this experiment influenced Donald's decision to take his own life, but it does show how bad his parents were at parenting. All it really did was traumatise Donald and Gua and potentially get Gua killed
I honestly feel bad for these two. Gua, who was forced to conform to human normalcy and Donald who was never treated as a human child in the first place but rather a model for his parents to compare to.
I wonder if Gua really died of a broken heart
And now Donald is in Hell :(
@@herdheaven, who's to say that? He might have gone up there, we wouldn't know.
If the human's development was limited by lack of socialization, wouldn't that do the same for the chimp? By existing in only a lab setting, I think they both would have been lacking substantial portions of the early human experience, and as such, human development.
underrated comment!
There was a chimp called Julius that lived with a family (because his herd rejected him as a baby). He didn’t develop particularly further, but he bonded closely with the family and definitely had a sense of humor and when he became an adult and too dangerous to have in the house, he was reintroduced to a herd in the zoo and there he communicated more with humans than his peers.
@@luminanza309 *troop
A group of chimps is called a troop.
Kellogg was doubly an idiot
@@luminanza309 That's so interesting!
I like how your pfp has a moustache
as someone who's autistic and who goes nonvocal on occassion, the fact the experiment ended soley because gua couldnt vocalize is heartbreaking. she could obviously communicate!
This would have ended far worse if they continued.
@@smoothie3993 true
The experiment was ended because their son started to communicate like an ape.
@@jbcfamily4802 and yeah know half of me wants to say SO what if the child started speaking ape? My son went around growling like a dinosaur for a while. But i would have been interested to study whether or not the child's grunts effectively communicated information to the chimp? As the child wold be more naturally in tune with his "sibling" and the child is still non verbal and learning speech... i wonder.
I would agree because also, the ability to vocalize is not necessary to be “human.” Babies that are born deaf or mute and just deaf/mute people in general aren’t any less human, so there’s no reason the experiment needed to end because she couldn’t speak words
This is so cruel. How could you tear a baby chimp away from her mother, raise her for 9 months in your family, and then tear her away from the only home she's ever known? And then they gave her away to be experimented on...
This was 1932 and no-one thought about animals feelings then…. At all .
Humans, don't be shocked as you can see they do it alot, hell they doing it now!!!!
@@scruffmcgruff03 most people don’t think about animals now either
Twice! It wasn't the only home she ever knew. She spent 7 months brought up with her mother, then 9 months with the human family, then separated again.
Old people used to throw bags of kittens in lakes, it was completely normal
It's so disgusting and heartbreaking for both Gua and her mother that they just ripped them apart like that! And then again, poor Gua loses her family just months later. She must've been terribly miserable!
Still is day to day in family court, take the child away and make hate the another parent. People relate to the chimp, but divorce happens with little to no concern for the children.
hundreds of cows are being slaughtered to be sold at the grocery store as youre reading this so whats your point
@@massive_dick_gaming maybe bc we don't eat chimpanzees
@@massive_dick_gaming
Interesting how vegans just assume something who expresses empathy for animals must be an omnivore and then proceeds to jump down that person's throat when there was no indication that they eat animas.
@@kuimiko with that stupid comment you‘re just supporting their point lmao
Thanks!
Thank you!
Did it not occur to anyone that Guess extreme shyness towards adults, though as normal as it might be, could have possibly stemmed from the trauma she experienced when she was with her parents? I don't recall if they were "apprehended" before or after her birth, but certainly it was adult humans that took her away from her mother.
Not to mention things like being hit on the head with a spoon, or being taught by the adults to be ashamed of certain things she couldn't do.
The gun firing behind her head.. could she know it was human adults who did it? We will never know but it startled me as well
This was a awful and cruel and most of all totally unnecessary experiment. Poor little Gua. She undoubtedly suffered the most.
yes, it just turned me apart :( gua loved her "sibling" and by the looks of it she also loved his "father", if she was distressed bcs they removed some little things from her bed rutine imagine what would she feel like when they removed what she entirely considered a family. she didnt even get to know what happend, i think she felt it was her fault (seeing that she felt ashamed and shy when failing in some experiments). Donald then learned and comprehend what happend, but gua... she didnt :(
Still a good experiment tho
@@billfrank471 not really, at the time of the experiment it was proven that chimpanzees had limitations and could never act fully human. The experiment was useless as most of the outcomes were already known
@@billfrank471
Not really. 😔
Jesus Christ you people can overreact.
According to all reports neither Donald nor Gua were psychologically affected by their separation or by spending 9 months together as infants. You know? Those things that have almost no brain capacity and who won't remember anything until about 2-3 years old depending on the individual?
You people are probably all fucking meat eaters and want to talk about morality? Get lost.
I'm taking a psychology class rn at college and I will say that some of the experiments that have been done in the past are frightening and horrendous. The little Albert experiment for an example was pretty messed up. There's been other ones too but it's crazy that not that long ago these experiments were taken place.
I think the worst one I ever learned about was that disgusting sick fuck Harlow's experiments with monkeys. Absolutely despicable pos human being for what he did and the lack of empathy that monster had for those animals
Edit to clarify: Im not just talking about the monkey love experiments, which were also fucked up, Im talking mostly about the pit of despair experiments. Harlow was a pathetic excuse of a human being
@@gremlininblue2601 Honestly, the monkey attachement experiment was already terrible.
Seeing this little monkey desesperatly trying to hug the female researcher only to be put in this cage was horrible to see.
But the pit of despair experiments... my fucking god it's horrible.
Have you seen the experiments they are doing on so called trans kids right now? Horrendous
@@yesterdayseyes nothing experimental in giving puberty blockers, has been done for a variety of medical reasons for decades. no kid as actually doing anything irreversible to their body when they take blockers.
@@yesterdayseyes Yes absolutely horrendous. I’ve also seen a picture of a thirteen year old being proudly showcased after getting the breasts removed. At that age… I have no words.
0:32 When you can pass as either 4 or 44
I can’t that poor child 😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂
This is considerably more adorable than I was expecting….
Edit: Up till they abandoned Gua….
She deserved more for sure and should've never been there. They couldn't have kept her for long anyway, they get real strong and will lash out eventually.
Raising an ape as a human (so long as they aren't unreasonable with it, and acvount for their differences) isn't the thing that strikes me as unethical. What strikes me as unethical is the continued separation and the partly unreasonable raising of her.
Not to mention, the abuse for both their son and gua.
Personal rating is a 4.
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You sound so similar to The Crime Reel! You two have got to be from around the same area!
Sounds like a Nazi experiment
I think another aspect that should have been obvious is that for the humans raised with wolves, the humans would under-develop. But if another animal were to try and live the complex life a human would, they would have to dramatically over-develop, which without time to adapt and evolve to be capable, is basically impossible
While it's blatantly obvious how traumatic this was for Gua, and I believe led to her death, nobody mentioned the trauma inflicted on Donald. So awful for both of them. Very sad. 😔
They both deserved better, gosh I hate humans
Because people care more about a dumb, filthy chimp than they do about a human child, their own kind. At least the vast majority of people I see trying to end primate experiments altogether are misanthropes. They also don't seem to be very vocal at all about experiments on cats and dogs.
Yeah, risking life of both the animal and more importantly the child. Stupid experiment.
There are tons of comments regarding Donald… I think that, for some reason we’re conditioned to feel more sympathetic towards animals than people and someways.
And I am sure that Gua went through more trauma than Donald after basically being abandoned by parental figures twice. Especially when they took her out of the household. That probably significantly influenced her to die very young because her soul probably was broken.
But then who knows what else they did to Donald after that. They definitely sound like people that shouldn’t have children.
But that’s also partially viewing it by today’s standards. Back then children were treated horribly. It was like adults didn’t believe the children were human…
🤔 She died of pneumonia.
It's amazing the tunnel vision humans can get when they have an idea. This may have attempted to be a comparative analysis, but ended up being a case study in early childhood trauma across species. It does not sound like either infant was treated with normal love and affection, while sharing in parental centered trauma.
It's almost more shocking that the adults generating this study were so oblivious of normal that they couldn't see the obvious flaws. We wonder why so many systems were abusive around this time and think everyone in power was evil. Things like this show us how broken normal people were. Even when trying to create a good environment... they had no clue what that looked like.
This kinda sums up why sex transition for children is child abuse.
@@Tetragramix: Exactly. The parents mean well, but if the kid is underage they really don't know what they want.
Unfortunately, we as a society haven't even come that far. Just take a look at some of the comments under this video: 'The kid was too young to remember' or 'He lived until 43 and had a career, he was fine!'. SMH.
Yup, spot on. A great example of how evil is inherent in all people, and we should all strive to give less power to other people no matter what.
They’re not stupid meow meows. They knew and just didn’t care. Science comes first or whatever.
According to Wikipedia, Donald committed suicide in 1973 (at about 42) so he was clearly forever traumatised by being experimented on in a cruel way. His parents don’t sound like they were ever good to him. Gua’s story is sad but Donald had to live with his terrible upbringing for decades until presumably he couldn’t handle it anymore. I can’t imagine how torturous his life must have been.
Today his parents would go to prison for allowing him to be subjected to this.
How do you know it had anything to do with that? I mean, it might have but a lot can happen in 40 years of life. I honestly think it's more likely that Donald didn't remember most or any of this experiment. That's not to say it couldn't have cause emotional consequences but I think people are overreacting to this.
@@kobayashimaru8114 A lot can happen but a lot more of it does happen when you've been psychologically damaged by your upbringing, especially in the developing years. No one's overreacting, it's just some people know more about it than you.
@@kobayashimaru8114 didn't he say "clearly"?
It's also possible that he killed himself because both his parents died the year before. We will never know and it's useless to speculate.
Expecting a chimpanzee to basically become a human while being raised next to one is like thinking Romulus and Remus would’ve grown fur and claws on account of being raised by wolves.
I can’t believe both parents were allowed to do this. To actually use their own child in an experiment like this and then publish a book about it later. Depriving their child of a normal upbringing where he could socialise was extremely evil and bound to end badly. I wasn’t at all surprised when I heard he took his own life at 43 years old. This is such a tragic story that didn’t need to happen.
I can understand the child being stunted and that being an issue, but attributing the suicide of a 41 year old person to the 9 months which he likely cannot even remember 40 years prior... This is actually ridiculous.
@@RainbowTrainStation Firstly, their only child was taught monkey language , 9 months spent with the child’s ‘brother’ who was then taken away abruptly, never to be seen again. The child’s speech development was retarded and the consequent trauma of losing his only companion would have been devastating to the child and enough to crush all hopes of forming close bonds for life no matter what age he was when it happened. Experiences even in the womb affect humans during their entire lives.. I think this was a classic case of what happens to a human when you interfere with their growth and nurturing during their formative years.
@@kaygoski I guess there is no way that any other events in a span of 40 entire years could have contributed to it. Nope, the first several months of his life are the direct cause for him to do this 40 years later.
@@RainbowTrainStationExactly people will say the most ridiculous things based on a pinch of info
bro it was the 1920s... the world was different back then
I feel so bad for gua
1: She was taken from her rightful home to be a test subject
2: She was forced to learn human like ways and actions while never meeting her kind
3:she built such a strong relationship with Donald just to be taken away for more test for being “not good enough” and “disappointing”~like she’s trying the best she can.
Edit- okay so I have been seeing a bunch of little rats in the comments saying “ ohh she doesn’t care about the human” like bestie just because I care for one thing doesn’t mean I don’t care for the other thing. Geez grow up
Yes feel bad for the non human
right lets not speak about the fact the baby was just as much a test subject as the chimp
Exactly they are sentient beings. I'm completely against any experiments on our two legged or four legged friends.
i mean yeah obviously?? that’s the point of the video,,, thanks for pointing out its not right to take an animal from their habitat and experimented on lol
they donated her after she was born she wasn’t taken
What's interesting to not is that Winthrop when the experiment was published, didn't regret it because of what he did to his son, but because the scientist community wouldn't take him seriously, a true monster
Are we not gonna talk about how they hit (?) a spoon against their skulls?!
real this experiment was crazy
Isn't it just normal scientist/Dr superiority complex.....