I use a DIY proof box with a heating pad controlled with a similar power control gadget like yours, I use it in winter when the house is in 60's to ferment at 77f, summer time my house is at mid 70's already, I just don't see the need to ferment at higher temp, specially if the dough is slightly more difficult to handle, thanks to your video I learned something new today . Excellent illustrations and as usual straight to the point. Thank you Philip.
Cheers Mike, I've successfully used a cool box with a heat mat which I'm guessing is similar to your set-up. I used a wire rack to elevate the container away from the heat source. I didn't have a temperature controller then so I tweaked the opening of the lid to regulate heat. But it worked well and was budget-friendly. Appreciate your feedback too :)
Excellent video. It confirmed my difficulty handling the dough here in Malaysia. I get around it by reducing the hydration. It also helps if i proofed it in a cooler bag with an ice pack (learned from elsewhere). Many thanks.
Thanks for your experiment and explaination. Each of your videos gives me some insights on bread making. Not all flours, recipes, non temperature act in the same way. I keep on improving my bread baking technic with you! Really enjoy your short and straightforward videos.
Hello again sir! Here in Florida we are hot and humid so I've been shooting for a total of about 11 hours. The last 90 minutes in a basket. I use linen in mine and fold the flaps over it to keep any debris out. My early fails were about a cold temp and a short bulk ferment. You were right when you said that over time an instinct about it will come. Keep up the good work sir.
Cheers John. Sounds like you've nailed it. Developing an instinct definitely comes with time and focusing on observing the dough by looking, touching and smelling. Cheers Bud
Thanks a lot for this as I have recently started baking, 2 weeks now and as you can imagine in addition to the frustrations of being a new baker I am also dealing with the ambient temperature of my kitchen being around 32 C in Mumbai. Once again loved all the effort you put in to your Videos thank you very much.
Cheers Nicholas, I can imagine you are having some "moments" in the kitchen. you'll get the hang of it. Feel free to drop me an email if you want any pointers.
The temp and humidity in the house makes such a difference. I love that each bread takes that on, plus one's own mood. I'd hate baking for conformity! I don't like to rush bread, but I do have a proofer and if timing is tight it is a great tool. Generally I may need to move bulk ferment along, but I compensate by a longer cooler time in shaping (straight to fridge instead of 45 mins at room temp first)
This simple video was incredibly helpful to me. Compared to the temperatures you're working with here my house has been terribly cold for all the months I have begun making sourdough bread. Now I can pinpoint the problems I've been experiencing in general. Thank you so much for clarifying this.
Always love your experiments! I live in tropical Singapore, my kitchen is 29-30c year round and I do not manipulate my temp. What I do is I use 15-20% levain depending on the flours I'm using, hydration ranges from 75-85% depending on the flours too. I bulk for 4.5hr to 5hr until it feels ready, then straight into fridge. My bread is yet as lacy as your room temp one so I won't say I got the bulk phase dialed in every single time, but pretty pleased with my results so far. I'd hazard a guess and say that if you'd cut your 2nd proof time by 30mins for that 30c dough, it would sink less in the fridge and have more strength. But I should try that extra room temp proof myself!
Hi Philip, this is what I am experiencing in Hong Kong now, warm and humid, dough is a lot stickier than back in Canada. Even the starter is runnier, I ended up cutting 10% of water in the starter to get the same consistency. The 50% whole wheat sourdough sure felt higher than 72% hydration. It still turned out pretty good. I am making all white Sourdough baguette now, will see how it turns out.
Hey Becky, hope you are enjoying Hong Kong and your family is well. Sounds like you have got the adjustments nailed. I was surprised at how different the dough felt.
Hello Phil, I want to begin by saying your videos and guidance are very well done, informative and most of the time, to the point. My sourdough experience has suffered for the fact I've move to different locales within the US and therefore distinctly different environments for Aldough, my sourdough starter. I live in Central Texas where the climate if between 44% and 95% relative humidity, with a temperature range of 25 F to 105 F. All that being said, poor Aldough has suffered lately. A couple of weeks ago I was housesitting for our daughter in the Texas Hill Country (90 miles from my home), not much drier, but definitely different air quality, etc. I took Aldough with us to just try it in that area. I fed Aldough and put it outside overnight with temperatures about 85-90F. It went crazy, belches its little heart out of the container and probably sang songs when no humans were around. I kept this up for the two week we were there. I brought this new happy Aldough back hom with me and it has just not been the same. Same feeding regimen, same ratio, but more hooch, less activity, slower if any rise... I hope I've supplied enough info, but I cannot sort what is wrong. The wild yeast here is most likely vasty different, the humidity is a small amount different, less sunny than there, temperature is somewhat the same.... Can wild yeast make that much of a difference?
Great content! Thanks for clarifying that. I got pretty much the same results in Korea. It's humid and over 30C here in summer. I make boules at about 65% hydration. It's dry and freezing here in winter. - 75% hydration.
Hi Philip, I live in tropical Singapore and the temperature in my kitchen at night is like 31°C. I've learned to proof my dough in a Styrofoam container with a ice brick. That's helped a lot. When I first started, my dough would get really watery and would not hold its shape. After lots of trial and error, I've realised that our humidity and heat here affects the dough such that I can't just follow any recipes from bakers based in cooler climates.
I'm in the Republic of Panama, temps lately around 35°C in the day... night goes down around 30°C.... it's crazy how sticky and problematic dough becomes in our tropical climates... I wonder if the solution would be to use the fridge for the whole process... Like get cold water, cold flour.. mix, put to the fridge, get it out to do the kneading folds, put it back... then let it proof again back in the fridge... i guess it can go longer like around 11-18 hours in the cold fridge... @@CulinaryExploration
@@JuanMiro507 You can use the fridge to chill the process down. But it's easy to make a DIY proofer and use ice bricks to balance the temperature. before I set up my proofing chamber I managed to hold around 25C/77F in my cool box while the ambient temp was 40C104F
@@CulinaryExploration what would you say is the right temperature.. i used an impermeable lunch box i got with one ice pad to put a poolish.... temp was around 23 steady for a while... in a 11-18hour fermentation what would be the desireable temp?
Great video… as Im baking in Panama City, that is in the middle of the rain forest with over 90F and 85% humidity all year. Im producing great sourdogh but im always on the edge of overproofing, folding, condensation etc in a homekitchen
Great video! Very informative, thank you. I'm in the tropics so my room temperature is usually 27c to 30c. After shaping I dont keep the dough out for proofing, I put it in the freezer for half an hour to reduce the temperature and then overnight in the fridge. Before the freezer technique it used to overproof in the fridge overnight but hasn't since I use the freezer. The main difference between our techniques is I incorporate a lot more folds for strength building. I do a stretch and fold, then a lamination and then 3 coil folds every 40 minutes. Then rise to 25% then shape, freezer, fridge. Maybe because my dough is out for longer for all the folds that's why I only need a 25% rise and no proofing. I will try your technique of only 2 laminations!
Philip, I've gone in a somewhat different direction from you and most of your subscribers and am very happy with the results. I do all of my fermentation at the same temperature - about 64F (18C) which I can achieve thanks to having a wine refrigerator. The mix to bake time around 24hrs. There is no distinction between "bulking" and "proofing" except that the second fermentation (about 12hrs) is after shaping - there is no "cold retard". Dough is very easy to handle throughout (I have 75% hydration). Nice crumb and loaf shape etc.
Thanks a lot. My room temperature is always around 30 deg C and the inside of my bread is quite gummy. Now I will not afraid to make any adjustments after watching your video ☺
Here in Malaysia I use a UK recipe but modify it. Instead of 500g bread flour, I use 425g bread flour + 25g wholemeal +25g whole spelt + 25g dark rye. I find I can then use the same amount of water. I also reduced the starter from 50g to 35g. I use cold water from the fridge. I find the specified 4 sets of stretch and folds doesnt give enough strength, so after these I do a lamination, later followed by a number of coil folds. Results in nice big loaf with a well formed ear. During the process if the dought gets to hot, I bung it in the fridge for a while.
Great video man, i just did a test from my last 2 batches at different temps. I did 24c and 30c. Loaves turned out identical looking, but the 30c was noticeably more tangy. I def think that yeast thrive more at the lower temperature and lactic and acetic acid thrive at the higher temps. Both were great, and i need more testing, but based on my first set that’s’ how it went 👍🏽
I’m really enjoying your experiment videos. Really looking forward to the scoring one. 👏🏻 Scoring is something I am less confident in. So any advice would be greatly appreciated.
This was exactly happened to the 2 loaves I made yesterday at room temp 30C. The dough I put to fridge at 80% grown, baked after 11hrs, was over proved not easy to score but ends up nicely baked. Another one I used 50% levain, put to basket when it grew to 40%, left 2hrs in room then 2 hrs in fridge, baked before I slept. Visually normal in size before getting into oven but ended up dense with not much oven spring 😢 . It is difficult to estimate how the levain behave especially in hot days. Better not to do sourdough when you are sleepy😉.
@@CulinaryExploration Baking when sleepy is where my disasters occur - if I start too late in the day to get it in for an overnight, I have been known to fall asleep at the TV and wake up enough to turn off the alarm and say "oh, time to put the bread in the fridge" and go back to sleep. Not good.
Hi there, thank you for your effort for teaching us how to make bread and I've one question sir , what is better oven using for baking sourdough bread , is it to open up and down inside the oven or just down flame?!
it was a challenge here in Montreal Canada when we went from cold winter to almost summer temps (our spring is barely existent or it swings back and forth from cold to hot temps) my first year of baking sourdough breads in the winter it can take between 8-12hrs my journey from mixing to fridge and in spring summer 5-7 hours from mixing to fridge it's really a challenging some days (especially the days in between) but the bread is soooooo good, its worth the challenge and i love cold fermentation, especially if you make it long term like 24 or 36 hrs in the fridge only thing i have not had the guts to do (cuz i dont want to spoil the dough before baking and all that work) is to put it in the fridge bareback (as ive seen many sourdough bakers do), the bottom has to dry out and i figure that will make for an even more tough bottom crust which is an already tough part of the crust without doing that, i always cover my banneton in the fridge with shower cap, easy to clean and dont waste so much plastic wrap and you can make a dome so they dont touch the dough and stick perfect video Phillip, i love these kinds of comparisons, makes it easier for us, tyvm
Another great video!! In my experiments I keep everything between 77 - 84°f from start of mixing to end of proofing @ 3hr. I have found that shaping then, putting in banneton, and in refrig for 18 - 21 hrs, gives me a perfect fermentation that is never over proofed nor under proofed. I use a 21 - 24 hr cycle for maximum fermentation.
@@CulinaryExploration the ambient proof is in the 3 hrs. After mix I do 3 sets of folds at 30min intervals. Rest until total of 3 hours. Then shape, put in banneton and refrig. The rest of proofing is done in refrig - takes about 6 - 8 hours until dough temp gets down to 38°f. There is also some minimal fermentation after 8 hrs to 21 hrs.
I live in a desert so my kitchen year round is always warmer than yours. Winter it's in the 70's and summer it's around 80 with AC running. In order to keep the dough temp down I use a large frozen ice pack under the dough container. A folded towel goes under the dough container to protect it. Then I cover the whole thing with a terrycloth towel and keep an eye on it using a infrared thermometer. I aim for the mid 60's in order to approximate your kitchen and recipe. So far this method works well for me.😊
Nice one Vic, you don't find that the dough gets too cold on the bottom of the bowl and touches the ice brick? Have you thought about popping the dough and the brick in a cooler and elevating the bowl with a cooling rack? You are dealing with properly warm temperatures!
@@CulinaryExploration Phil I do place a folded towel between the ice pack and the dough container to protect the dough. I've also experimented with using the empty microwave with the ice pack on the floor and the dough on the microwave rack.
Great video, but I'm surprised at how long your fermentation times are at that temperature and innoculation. I usually use a mixture of 11% protein white flour and whole grain flour at a 80/20 ratio, so maybe the whole grains make a big difference. At similar ratios and lower temps I am over fermented at 6.5 hours.
I live in the hot weather all seasons, my sourdough hydration is always at 80 to 82% my room temperature from 28 to 30c I have been banking with strong bread flour .. it handles well .. It took about 4 hrs or less to reach 30% raise, shape and straight to cold restard.. it came out really nice.. I have been using 20 % dark rye starter, 10% wholewheat and 10% dark rye in the main dough... I don't eat pure white breads..
@@lbamusic that's why I found it amazing that he could let his 70% white dough rise to 75% and let it proof somemore at 1 1/2 hr at 30C before cold restard.. that's got to do with the hydration and it's 100% pure bread flour, I don't think I can do that for my combinations ..my dough will " melt" LoL
Thanks for the viideo. I usually bulk ferment at 81 F or 27 C. I then shape, place in the banetton and refrigerate. I usually don't get much expansion in the overnight proof in the fridge. I'm concerned about it over proving from the higher temperature. The bread always comes out really nice, but I'd like to get some growth during proofing. I guess I need to just try to proof at room temperature, let it grow a little and then into the fridge for the cold overnight proof. I think I've been too paranoid about over proofed dough.
Hi, I dont know where you are but 25 Deg C is not room temp in the UK . You said that the loaves go into the fridge overnight for 18 hours. This is not over night, but all day. IMO 18 hours in the fridge would cause the loaves to over proof.
Maintaining a temperature for a small amount of dough is the hardest for me. My kitchen is on average 15-20c, except maybe for the height of summer. Any tips on this method for those situations?
Some people keep their dough in the oven to ferment with the light on. That has always made me a little nervous lol. I have used a seed mat in combination with a cooler and a wire rack. That holds temperature well, I used to keep a thermometer inside and play around propping with the lid open at different angles to regulate heat.
Hi Philip, why do u keep the dough outside at room temperature for 2 hours before putting them into the fridge? I live in Singapore with indoor temperature consistently at around 28-30 degrees. I usually put the dough straight into the fridge after shaping for 15-25 hours before baking. So far I have only achieved a big ear once though the oven spring is usually quite good just a small ear 😉 Any advice will be much appreciated! Thank you 🙏
I live in the high desert. I typically hydrate to 80%. There is no "cover with a tea towel" when the humidity is 10% or less. You need to protect the loaf from drying out. I use a gardeners seed starting heat pad for temperature regulation. Its like 20-25 dollars and is supposed to keep temps 75-80. At this altitude water boils at 201f(94c). So its like a reverse pressure cooker. Meaning you bake longer. We don't have air conditioning, but we get a couple of hot months. So mid june to mid september (100f) is a no baking season except for when we get the rare storm.
Sounds like that heat mat keeps the temperature spot on. I'm intrigued about baking at high altitudes, what altitude are you at? Is that the only adjustment you make and does it affect the fermentation period? (Sorry, I'm super curious)
@@CulinaryExploration I'm at 6k feet. All recipes must be adjusted because of the lower air pressure. Its something you get used to. Fermentation is the same as far as I know. I do homebrew beer too. No difference in fermentation there either. Other than temps tend to be cooler at altitude. We keep the house around 68f except for summer then it is what it is. I don't eat sweets, but apparently cookies are pretty tough to make here. They spread out thin and come out flat. Also, all beans must be cooked in a pressure cooker.
@@9ramthebuffs9 That's interesting, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to get back to me. I'm hoping to try a bit of baking at altitude soon, quite a few people have asked me what adjustments need to be made
I live at 4,500' (1,371meters) in the Sierra Nevada mtns, of California. I did notice faster fermentation with instant yeast. Sourdough I don't know, because I started it here about 20 some years ago, so have nothing to compare to. I had to nearly cut the instant yeast in half. I suspect it goes a little faster at elevation too, but really don't know.
I would *love* any tips you have about preventing your dough from cracking in the fridge. My Fridge Is set to 39F and I've tried: 1) straight into fridge 2) straight into fridge covered 3) into a zip lock bag and into fridge and 4) into a zip lock bag covered and into friday. Every single one of those crack attempts crack on the bottom of the basket (top of loaf). I've baked sourdough for the past like 4 yrs and this cracking didnt start happening until the past year with no real change in what I do. Any tips?
I have read that when bulk fermentation is done at higher temps that you should call is done sooner. For 80f, only 30% rise. So pretty much what you discovered.
Wouldn't a lower temperature would favor lactobacillus activity? For this reason, I would expect a difference in flavor. Was there a difference in flavor?
Not that I could tell, but I think the long proof helped balance that out. I'll be looking at fermentation vs flavour in some up and coming vids. Appreciate the comment
Great video man, thank you again for all your uploads. Can I ask: Firstly, When you bake at 220 C for 20 mins covered, do you then reduce the oven temperature for the uncovered time? Because in my oven if I left my loaves at 220 C for 25 mins uncovered they would come out black. Even at 200 C for 20 minutes uncovered they are coming out darker than yours appear to be. Secondly, what recipe are you using for these 70% hydration loaves? Is in the same as the beginner sourdough load video? And finally, I’m also finding it extremely difficult to get a white bread flour starter going. I’m not sure why, I think its maybe the Northern Irish climate. But every time I try it, it doesn’t seem to ever work. Have no problems at all getting a wholemeal flour going in 8-10 days at room temperature but would really love an active white bread flour starter like your own as wholemeal flour can sometimes be a bit too harsh on the old digestive system. Any tips on that? Many thanks again and good job with keep the channel going and progressing!
Hi Jeff, I don't reduce my oven temperature after uncovering the dough. Don't worry about my oven temperature too much either, you'll need to adjust your times and temps for your oven to produce a properly baked loaf. Yep, they are all 70% hydration. When I begin a starter I use 50% strong white flour and 50% wholewheat. After 4-5 days I switch over to all white flour. Have you tried converting your starter by switching it to wholewheat?
Have you measured the temperature with some external thermometer or just relying on your internal one from the oven? 200C and very dark bread seems unreal, unless some sugar/honey added into the dough
I ferment at 86ºF with a proofing box and have found that I must use the refrigerator directly after shaping or the dough will over proof and have less oven spring.
Instead of using time as the proofing (on banneton) period delimiter, I strongly recommend to keep the fermentation jar used to monitor bulk fermentation to keep track of the correct moment to go to the fridge. So if you use 75% of grown for bulk fermentation, something like 90-100% would be a good point to “end” the proofing time. I believe this would give a much more accurate tool, as all variables are included in this tracking strategy.
Hey Mario, I've thought about this quite a bit and will probably play around with it. I recently tested different ways of shaping (including pressure) using the same batch of dough. Each method produced a different loaf, I discovered that the more pressure I used, the more time I needed to leave the dough to proof in the basket to regain its volume to achieve a good crumb. So the control dough wouldn't have helped me to understand what was happening in each case. Let me know what your thoughts are, I'll be testing it in a couple of weeks. Cheers buddy
Very interesting experiment. You are really trying to evaluate all variables, great ! I think the size of the dough during proofing is related to how much gas is trapped and the tension developed during shaping. But the fermentation process is going on anyway and does not depend on these two factors. So, I believe the monitoring jar is still a good indicator of fermentation stage. And I think you’ll validate, or not, this theory !! Congratulation for your great work.
My initial comment should go on your other video “How Adjusting Bulk Fermentation Time Affects Sourdough Baking”, but I did here as when making dough comparisons (other than fermentation) it is crucial to keep fermentation as close as possible across doughs. While the more accurate way to track fermentation is pH measurement, the jar sample method is quite reliable if you control and keep constant temperature. I forgot to ask, what about the taste differences between the 25C and the 30C loaves? I would expect the 30C more sour…
@@mariospalmeida837 Sorry Mario, missed this one. I've got a pH meter on the way to do a few experiments. To be honest I couldn't detect a flavour difference and wondered if the 18hr rest in the fridge had anything to do with that. I'll probably do a different experiment to explore the flavour produced at different temperatures.
As a rule of thumb, yeast activity doubles every 5ºC. Based on this I'd say the 30º experiment fermented for too long. Not sure about how the bacteria activity changes with the temp. Also generally speaking, the ideal temp. for (bread) dough is somewhere between 24º-26ºC (or 25º-27º??? not quite sure, but less than 30º). Even if you reduce yeast (or sourdough) or shorten the fermentation time the dough will still cannot develop like it would develop at 25ºC. (Very) small batches of dough ferment also slower than big batches of dough. This makes the method with a small control batch imo very questionable.
Sou do Brasil Moro RS porto alegre gostaria muito que você colocasse legendas em seus vídeos para mim poder aprender mais com o mestre muito obrigado legendas em português
I really wish I had the time to be able to add subtitles in as many languages as possible. If I ever get to bring another team member on I may well be able to do it. I appreciate the feedback :)
That's an interesting point and I'm yet to make a video on this. Leaving the dough uncovered certainly works in some fridges, but not all. I can't do that in my main fridge as the dough will dry really quickly
I couldn't detect a difference although I would have thought the 30C loaf would taste sourer. I have a theory and it will be coming in a new video soon :)
Thank you for seeking answers to our questions! That will be a welcome bit of information! I would like to make "unsour" sourdough and wonder if fermenting time and temperature is the controlling factor. Looking foward to your explorations in that area!
This VDO answered all my questions. My kitchen can get up to 35 c and i have struggled to get a good (I won’t say perfect sourdough) My breads don’t raise, small crumbs, sticky and tough texture and shell. I am sure i will be successful with my next one.
I use a DIY proof box with a heating pad controlled with a similar power control gadget like yours, I use it in winter when the house is in 60's to ferment at 77f, summer time my house is at mid 70's already, I just don't see the need to ferment at higher temp, specially if the dough is slightly more difficult to handle, thanks to your video I learned something new today . Excellent illustrations and as usual straight to the point. Thank you Philip.
Cheers Mike, I've successfully used a cool box with a heat mat which I'm guessing is similar to your set-up. I used a wire rack to elevate the container away from the heat source. I didn't have a temperature controller then so I tweaked the opening of the lid to regulate heat. But it worked well and was budget-friendly. Appreciate your feedback too :)
Excellent video. It confirmed my difficulty handling the dough here in Malaysia. I get around it by reducing the hydration. It also helps if i proofed it in a cooler bag with an ice pack (learned from elsewhere). Many thanks.
That's a nice little trick to keep the dough cool, I was surprised just how soft the dough felt at 30c
Thanks for your experiment and explaination. Each of your videos gives me some insights on bread making. Not all flours, recipes, non temperature act in the same way. I keep on improving my bread baking technic with you! Really enjoy your short and straightforward videos.
I'm pleased the vids are helpful, enjoy your baking!
Hello again sir! Here in Florida we are hot and humid so I've been shooting for a total of about 11 hours. The last 90 minutes in a basket. I use linen in mine and fold the flaps over it to keep any debris out. My early fails were about a cold temp and a short bulk ferment. You were right when you said that over time an instinct about it will come. Keep up the good work sir.
Cheers John. Sounds like you've nailed it. Developing an instinct definitely comes with time and focusing on observing the dough by looking, touching and smelling. Cheers Bud
Thanks a lot for this as I have recently started baking, 2 weeks now and as you can imagine in addition to the frustrations of being a new baker I am also dealing with the ambient temperature of my kitchen being around 32 C in Mumbai. Once again loved all the effort you put in to your Videos thank you very much.
Cheers Nicholas, I can imagine you are having some "moments" in the kitchen. you'll get the hang of it. Feel free to drop me an email if you want any pointers.
Hi hi on bjjjjjo
The temp and humidity in the house makes such a difference. I love that each bread takes that on, plus one's own mood. I'd hate baking for conformity!
I don't like to rush bread, but I do have a proofer and if timing is tight it is a great tool. Generally I may need to move bulk ferment along, but I compensate by a longer cooler time in shaping (straight to fridge instead of 45 mins at room temp first)
Love it. Your videos helped me get on a daily routine of producing a solid loaf. Many thanks.
Nice one Bo Jankins, happy baking :)
This simple video was incredibly helpful to me. Compared to the temperatures you're working with here my house has been terribly cold for all the months I have begun making sourdough bread. Now I can pinpoint the problems I've been experiencing in general. Thank you so much for clarifying this.
I'm really pleased that helped out
Always love your experiments! I live in tropical Singapore, my kitchen is 29-30c year round and I do not manipulate my temp. What I do is I use 15-20% levain depending on the flours I'm using, hydration ranges from 75-85% depending on the flours too. I bulk for 4.5hr to 5hr until it feels ready, then straight into fridge. My bread is yet as lacy as your room temp one so I won't say I got the bulk phase dialed in every single time, but pretty pleased with my results so far. I'd hazard a guess and say that if you'd cut your 2nd proof time by 30mins for that 30c dough, it would sink less in the fridge and have more strength. But I should try that extra room temp proof myself!
To be fair though, his 30c loaf still turned out very good. I'd be happy with a loaf like that every time. I personally wouldn't even adjust anything.
Hi Philip, this is what I am experiencing in Hong Kong now, warm and humid, dough is a lot stickier than back in Canada. Even the starter is runnier, I ended up cutting 10% of water in the starter to get the same consistency. The 50% whole wheat sourdough sure felt higher than 72% hydration. It still turned out pretty good. I am making all white Sourdough baguette now, will see how it turns out.
Hey Becky, hope you are enjoying Hong Kong and your family is well. Sounds like you have got the adjustments nailed. I was surprised at how different the dough felt.
Hello Phil, I want to begin by saying your videos and guidance are very well done, informative and most of the time, to the point. My sourdough experience has suffered for the fact I've move to different locales within the US and therefore distinctly different environments for Aldough, my sourdough starter. I live in Central Texas where the climate if between 44% and 95% relative humidity, with a temperature range of 25 F to 105 F. All that being said, poor Aldough has suffered lately. A couple of weeks ago I was housesitting for our daughter in the Texas Hill Country (90 miles from my home), not much drier, but definitely different air quality, etc. I took Aldough with us to just try it in that area. I fed Aldough and put it outside overnight with temperatures about 85-90F. It went crazy, belches its little heart out of the container and probably sang songs when no humans were around. I kept this up for the two week we were there. I brought this new happy Aldough back hom with me and it has just not been the same. Same feeding regimen, same ratio, but more hooch, less activity, slower if any rise...
I hope I've supplied enough info, but I cannot sort what is wrong. The wild yeast here is most likely vasty different, the humidity is a small amount different, less sunny than there, temperature is somewhat the same.... Can wild yeast make that much of a difference?
Great content!
Thanks for clarifying that. I got pretty much the same results in Korea.
It's humid and over 30C here in summer. I make boules at about 65% hydration.
It's dry and freezing here in winter. - 75% hydration.
Hi Philip, I live in tropical Singapore and the temperature in my kitchen at night is like 31°C. I've learned to proof my dough in a Styrofoam container with a ice brick. That's helped a lot. When I first started, my dough would get really watery and would not hold its shape. After lots of trial and error, I've realised that our humidity and heat here affects the dough such that I can't just follow any recipes from bakers based in cooler climates.
Yep, learning how to make adjustments is super important :)
I'm in the Republic of Panama, temps lately around 35°C in the day... night goes down around 30°C.... it's crazy how sticky and problematic dough becomes in our tropical climates... I wonder if the solution would be to use the fridge for the whole process... Like get cold water, cold flour.. mix, put to the fridge, get it out to do the kneading folds, put it back... then let it proof again back in the fridge... i guess it can go longer like around 11-18 hours in the cold fridge... @@CulinaryExploration
@@JuanMiro507 You can use the fridge to chill the process down. But it's easy to make a DIY proofer and use ice bricks to balance the temperature. before I set up my proofing chamber I managed to hold around 25C/77F in my cool box while the ambient temp was 40C104F
@@CulinaryExploration what would you say is the right temperature.. i used an impermeable lunch box i got with one ice pad to put a poolish.... temp was around 23 steady for a while... in a 11-18hour fermentation what would be the desireable temp?
@@JuanMiro507 Aim for around 25C but don't get too over the top about it.
Great video… as Im baking in Panama City, that is in the middle of the rain forest with over 90F and 85% humidity all year. Im producing great sourdogh but im always on the edge of overproofing, folding, condensation etc in a homekitchen
This is totally the one I'm looking for.. its 29-30°C here.. love all your videos. Thanks for making all these videos. Highly appreciated 🙏 🙌 ❤️🌾🌾🌾
Awesome! Enjoy your baking :)
Great video! Very informative, thank you. I'm in the tropics so my room temperature is usually 27c to 30c. After shaping I dont keep the dough out for proofing, I put it in the freezer for half an hour to reduce the temperature and then overnight in the fridge.
Before the freezer technique it used to overproof in the fridge overnight but hasn't since I use the freezer.
The main difference between our techniques is I incorporate a lot more folds for strength building. I do a stretch and fold, then a lamination and then 3 coil folds every 40 minutes. Then rise to 25% then shape, freezer, fridge.
Maybe because my dough is out for longer for all the folds that's why I only need a 25% rise and no proofing. I will try your technique of only 2 laminations!
I've never tested the freezer method but I know it's popular. Perhaps I'll give it a go. Appreciate your comment Superfood smoothie!
I love experiments that work. Both lobes look amazing
Cheers Ral
@@CulinaryExploration ha, l meant loaves but lobes works as well..
Philip, I've gone in a somewhat different direction from you and most of your subscribers and am very happy with the results. I do all of my fermentation at the same temperature - about 64F (18C) which I can achieve thanks to having a wine refrigerator. The mix to bake time around 24hrs. There is no distinction between "bulking" and "proofing" except that the second fermentation (about 12hrs) is after shaping - there is no "cold retard". Dough is very easy to handle throughout (I have 75% hydration). Nice crumb and loaf shape etc.
Thanks a lot. My room temperature is always around 30 deg C and the inside of my bread is quite gummy. Now I will not afraid to make any adjustments after watching your video ☺
Let me know how you get on Judith
Here in Malaysia I use a UK recipe but modify it. Instead of 500g bread flour, I use 425g bread flour + 25g wholemeal +25g whole spelt + 25g dark rye. I find I can then use the same amount of water. I also reduced the starter from 50g to 35g. I use cold water from the fridge. I find the specified 4 sets of stretch and folds doesnt give enough strength, so after these I do a lamination, later followed by a number of coil folds. Results in nice big loaf with a well formed ear. During the process if the dought gets to hot, I bung it in the fridge for a while.
Hey there great video but I would have been interested to see if there was a difference in sourness!
Great video man, i just did a test from my last 2 batches at different temps. I did 24c and 30c. Loaves turned out identical looking, but the 30c was noticeably more tangy. I def think that yeast thrive more at the lower temperature and lactic and acetic acid thrive at the higher temps. Both were great, and i need more testing, but based on my first set that’s’ how it went 👍🏽
I’m really enjoying your experiment videos. Really looking forward to the scoring one. 👏🏻 Scoring is something I am less confident in. So any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Katie, I'll follow up with that one soon, stay tuned
This was exactly happened to the 2 loaves I made yesterday at room temp 30C. The dough I put to fridge at 80% grown, baked after 11hrs, was over proved not easy to score but ends up nicely baked. Another one I used 50% levain, put to basket when it grew to 40%, left 2hrs in room then 2 hrs in fridge, baked before I slept. Visually normal in size before getting into oven but ended up dense with not much oven spring 😢 . It is difficult to estimate how the levain behave especially in hot days. Better not to do sourdough when you are sleepy😉.
That was a real twist, I wasn't expecting. It just goes to show, that you never really know what's going to happen ;)
@@CulinaryExploration Baking when sleepy is where my disasters occur - if I start too late in the day to get it in for an overnight, I have been known to fall asleep at the TV and wake up enough to turn off the alarm and say "oh, time to put the bread in the fridge" and go back to sleep. Not good.
Hi there, thank you for your effort for teaching us how to make bread and I've one question sir , what is better oven using for baking sourdough bread , is it to open up and down inside the oven or just down flame?!
it was a challenge here in Montreal Canada when we went from cold winter to almost summer temps (our spring is barely existent or it swings back and forth from cold to hot temps) my first year of baking sourdough breads
in the winter it can take between 8-12hrs my journey from mixing to fridge and in spring summer 5-7 hours from mixing to fridge
it's really a challenging some days (especially the days in between)
but the bread is soooooo good, its worth the challenge and i love cold fermentation, especially if you make it long term like 24 or 36 hrs in the fridge
only thing i have not had the guts to do (cuz i dont want to spoil the dough before baking and all that work) is to put it in the fridge bareback (as ive seen many sourdough bakers do), the bottom has to dry out and i figure that will make for an even more tough bottom crust which is an already tough part of the crust without doing that, i always cover my banneton in the fridge with shower cap, easy to clean and dont waste so much plastic wrap and you can make a dome so they dont touch the dough and stick
perfect video Phillip, i love these kinds of comparisons, makes it easier for us, tyvm
Another great video!! In my experiments I keep everything between 77 - 84°f from start of mixing to end of proofing @ 3hr.
I have found that shaping then, putting in banneton, and in refrig for 18 - 21 hrs, gives me a perfect fermentation that is never over proofed nor under proofed. I use a 21 - 24 hr cycle for maximum fermentation.
So no ambient proof Ben? Straight into the fridge after shaping?
@@CulinaryExploration the ambient proof is in the 3 hrs. After mix I do 3 sets of folds at 30min intervals. Rest until total of 3 hours. Then shape, put in banneton and refrig. The rest of proofing is done in refrig - takes about 6 - 8 hours until dough temp gets down to 38°f. There is also some minimal fermentation after 8 hrs to 21 hrs.
I also use strong flour at about 14% and 75% total hydration (including starter)
@@lbamusic Gotcha! Cheers Ben
I live in a desert so my kitchen year round is always warmer than yours. Winter it's in the 70's and summer it's around 80 with AC running.
In order to keep the dough temp down I use a large frozen ice pack under the dough container. A folded towel goes under the dough container to protect it.
Then I cover the whole thing with a terrycloth towel and keep an eye on it using a infrared thermometer. I aim for the mid 60's in order to approximate your kitchen and recipe. So far this method works well for me.😊
Nice one Vic, you don't find that the dough gets too cold on the bottom of the bowl and touches the ice brick? Have you thought about popping the dough and the brick in a cooler and elevating the bowl with a cooling rack? You are dealing with properly warm temperatures!
@@CulinaryExploration Phil I do place a folded towel between the ice pack and the dough container to protect the dough. I've also experimented with using the empty microwave with the ice pack on the floor and the dough on the microwave rack.
@@VictorYepello Creative, I love it :)
Great video, but I'm surprised at how long your fermentation times are at that temperature and innoculation. I usually use a mixture of 11% protein white flour and whole grain flour at a 80/20 ratio, so maybe the whole grains make a big difference. At similar ratios and lower temps I am over fermented at 6.5 hours.
I live in the hot weather all seasons, my sourdough hydration is always at 80 to 82% my room temperature from 28 to 30c I have been banking with strong bread flour .. it handles well .. It took about 4 hrs or less to reach 30% raise, shape and straight to cold restard.. it came out really nice.. I have been using 20 % dark rye starter, 10% wholewheat and 10% dark rye in the main dough... I don't eat pure white breads..
Cheers Chrissy!
..yes that is also what I found...3-4 hrs to reach 30% - 50% rise before putting in refrig.
@@lbamusic that's why I found it amazing that he could let his 70% white dough rise to 75% and let it proof somemore at 1 1/2 hr at 30C before cold restard.. that's got to do with the hydration and it's 100% pure bread flour, I don't think I can do that for my combinations ..my dough will " melt" LoL
Thanks for the viideo. I usually bulk ferment at 81 F or 27 C. I then shape, place in the banetton and refrigerate. I usually don't get much expansion in the overnight proof in the fridge. I'm concerned about it over proving from the higher temperature. The bread always comes out really nice, but I'd like to get some growth during proofing. I guess I need to just try to proof at room temperature, let it grow a little and then into the fridge for the cold overnight proof. I think I've been too paranoid about over proofed dough.
I love this type of experimentation.
Hi,
I dont know where you are but 25 Deg C is not room temp in the UK . You said that the loaves go into the fridge overnight for 18 hours. This is not over night, but all day. IMO 18 hours in the fridge would cause the loaves to over proof.
This is highly dependent on your fridge temp.
Maintaining a temperature for a small amount of dough is the hardest for me. My kitchen is on average 15-20c, except maybe for the height of summer.
Any tips on this method for those situations?
Some people keep their dough in the oven to ferment with the light on. That has always made me a little nervous lol. I have used a seed mat in combination with a cooler and a wire rack. That holds temperature well, I used to keep a thermometer inside and play around propping with the lid open at different angles to regulate heat.
Hi Philip, why do u keep the dough outside at room temperature for 2 hours before putting them into the fridge? I live in Singapore with indoor temperature consistently at around 28-30 degrees. I usually put the dough straight into the fridge after shaping for 15-25 hours before baking. So far I have only achieved a big ear once though the oven spring is usually quite good just a small ear 😉 Any advice will be much appreciated! Thank you 🙏
I live in the high desert. I typically hydrate to 80%. There is no "cover with a tea towel" when the humidity is 10% or less. You need to protect the loaf from drying out. I use a gardeners seed starting heat pad for temperature regulation. Its like 20-25 dollars and is supposed to keep temps 75-80. At this altitude water boils at 201f(94c). So its like a reverse pressure cooker. Meaning you bake longer. We don't have air conditioning, but we get a couple of hot months. So mid june to mid september (100f) is a no baking season except for when we get the rare storm.
Sounds like that heat mat keeps the temperature spot on. I'm intrigued about baking at high altitudes, what altitude are you at? Is that the only adjustment you make and does it affect the fermentation period? (Sorry, I'm super curious)
@@CulinaryExploration I'm at 6k feet. All recipes must be adjusted because of the lower air pressure. Its something you get used to. Fermentation is the same as far as I know. I do homebrew beer too. No difference in fermentation there either. Other than temps tend to be cooler at altitude. We keep the house around 68f except for summer then it is what it is. I don't eat sweets, but apparently cookies are pretty tough to make here. They spread out thin and come out flat. Also, all beans must be cooked in a pressure cooker.
@@9ramthebuffs9 That's interesting, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to get back to me. I'm hoping to try a bit of baking at altitude soon, quite a few people have asked me what adjustments need to be made
I live at 4,500' (1,371meters) in the Sierra Nevada mtns, of California. I did notice faster fermentation with instant yeast. Sourdough I don't know, because I started it here about 20 some years ago, so have nothing to compare to. I had to nearly cut the instant yeast in half. I suspect it goes a little faster at elevation too, but really don't know.
@@barrychambers4047 Cheers Barry. I need to find an Airbnb at altitude and spend a couple of weeks there baking
I would *love* any tips you have about preventing your dough from cracking in the fridge. My Fridge Is set to 39F and I've tried: 1) straight into fridge 2) straight into fridge covered 3) into a zip lock bag and into fridge and 4) into a zip lock bag covered and into friday. Every single one of those crack attempts crack on the bottom of the basket (top of loaf). I've baked sourdough for the past like 4 yrs and this cracking didnt start happening until the past year with no real change in what I do. Any tips?
I have read that when bulk fermentation is done at higher temps that you should call is done sooner. For 80f, only 30% rise. So pretty much what you discovered.
Wouldn't a lower temperature would favor lactobacillus activity? For this reason, I would expect a difference in flavor. Was there a difference in flavor?
Not that I could tell, but I think the long proof helped balance that out. I'll be looking at fermentation vs flavour in some up and coming vids. Appreciate the comment
I didn't find the video where you talk about putting a piece of dough in a jar in order to check the fermentation. Would you mind linking it?
Great video man, thank you again for all your uploads. Can I ask: Firstly, When you bake at 220 C for 20 mins covered, do you then reduce the oven temperature for the uncovered time? Because in my oven if I left my loaves at 220 C for 25 mins uncovered they would come out black. Even at 200 C for 20 minutes uncovered they are coming out darker than yours appear to be.
Secondly, what recipe are you using for these 70% hydration loaves? Is in the same as the beginner sourdough load video?
And finally, I’m also finding it extremely difficult to get a white bread flour starter going. I’m not sure why, I think its maybe the Northern Irish climate. But every time I try it, it doesn’t seem to ever work. Have no problems at all getting a wholemeal flour going in 8-10 days at room temperature but would really love an active white bread flour starter like your own as wholemeal flour can sometimes be a bit too harsh on the old digestive system. Any tips on that?
Many thanks again and good job with keep the channel going and progressing!
Hi Jeff, I don't reduce my oven temperature after uncovering the dough. Don't worry about my oven temperature too much either, you'll need to adjust your times and temps for your oven to produce a properly baked loaf. Yep, they are all 70% hydration. When I begin a starter I use 50% strong white flour and 50% wholewheat. After 4-5 days I switch over to all white flour. Have you tried converting your starter by switching it to wholewheat?
Have you measured the temperature with some external thermometer or just relying on your internal one from the oven? 200C and very dark bread seems unreal, unless some sugar/honey added into the dough
Yes, you could use an infrared, point and shoot thermometer to check oven temperatures. Your oven may be running a bit hot.
I’m intrigued about your technique
Do you have a video for your usual SD recipe ?
Looks like a good example of the good kind of science!
Can you do this at a lower temp as well?
Reduce your inoculation when you have higher temps. Works great for me
Having some problems with dough sticking to the basket, any good way to avoid ?
I ferment at 86ºF with a proofing box and have found that I must use the refrigerator directly after shaping or the dough will over proof and have less oven spring.
Cheers, I think at the higher temperatures it may help to retard immediately in the fridge
I would love to see the differences the temperature around 20 degrees especially during winter time
I might do a 20c Vs 35c soon for a taste test :)
Instead of using time as the proofing (on banneton) period delimiter, I strongly recommend to keep the fermentation jar used to monitor bulk fermentation to keep track of the correct moment to go to the fridge.
So if you use 75% of grown for bulk fermentation, something like 90-100% would be a good point to “end” the proofing time.
I believe this would give a much more accurate tool, as all variables are included in this tracking strategy.
Hey Mario, I've thought about this quite a bit and will probably play around with it. I recently tested different ways of shaping (including pressure) using the same batch of dough. Each method produced a different loaf, I discovered that the more pressure I used, the more time I needed to leave the dough to proof in the basket to regain its volume to achieve a good crumb. So the control dough wouldn't have helped me to understand what was happening in each case. Let me know what your thoughts are, I'll be testing it in a couple of weeks. Cheers buddy
Very interesting experiment. You are really trying to evaluate all variables, great !
I think the size of the dough during proofing is related to how much gas is trapped and the tension developed during shaping.
But the fermentation process is going on anyway and does not depend on these two factors.
So, I believe the monitoring jar is still a good indicator of fermentation stage.
And I think you’ll validate, or not, this theory !!
Congratulation for your great work.
My initial comment should go on your other video “How Adjusting Bulk Fermentation Time Affects Sourdough Baking”, but I did here as when making dough comparisons (other than fermentation) it is crucial to keep fermentation as close as possible across doughs.
While the more accurate way to track fermentation is pH measurement, the jar sample method is quite reliable if you control and keep constant temperature.
I forgot to ask, what about the taste differences between the 25C and the 30C loaves? I would expect the 30C more sour…
@@mariospalmeida837 I enjoy experimenting and continue to realise how long this journey is. I appreciate your comment Mario
@@mariospalmeida837 Sorry Mario, missed this one. I've got a pH meter on the way to do a few experiments. To be honest I couldn't detect a flavour difference and wondered if the 18hr rest in the fridge had anything to do with that. I'll probably do a different experiment to explore the flavour produced at different temperatures.
I baked 3 loafs today and I bulk fermented them at 106f because I was in a hurry and they're much harder to handle for sure.
Now that sounds challenging!
WOW - that's 41C, I'm guessing it wasn't fun lol?
What is the percentage of starter you’re using?
I'm curious if the taste was any different?
do you use the steam or someting?
No spraying with water and no ice cubes, I simply cover the dough with a pot, that's it :)
As a rule of thumb, yeast activity doubles every 5ºC. Based on this I'd say the 30º experiment fermented for too long. Not sure about how the bacteria activity changes with the temp.
Also generally speaking, the ideal temp. for (bread) dough is somewhere between 24º-26ºC (or 25º-27º??? not quite sure, but less than 30º). Even if you reduce yeast (or sourdough) or shorten the fermentation time the dough will still cannot develop like it would develop at 25ºC.
(Very) small batches of dough ferment also slower than big batches of dough. This makes the method with a small control batch imo very questionable.
Great vid. Thanks
gracias por traducir al Español
Sou do Brasil Moro RS porto alegre gostaria muito que você colocasse legendas em seus vídeos para mim poder aprender mais com o mestre muito obrigado legendas em português
I really wish I had the time to be able to add subtitles in as many languages as possible. If I ever get to bring another team member on I may well be able to do it. I appreciate the feedback :)
What about flavor?
Absolutely no difference that I could tell, probably down to the 18 hour period in the fridge.
Btw, do not cover your 30C dough in the fridge.. u will have a dry nice dough
That's an interesting point and I'm yet to make a video on this. Leaving the dough uncovered certainly works in some fridges, but not all. I can't do that in my main fridge as the dough will dry really quickly
@@CulinaryExploration understood
Can you comment on the taste. Identical?
I couldn't detect a difference although I would have thought the 30C loaf would taste sourer. I have a theory and it will be coming in a new video soon :)
Was the taste affected by the warmer temperature?
Nothing that I could detect, I'm going to be diving deeper into fermentation times Vs taste soon.
Thank you for seeking answers to our questions! That will be a welcome bit of information! I would like to make "unsour" sourdough and wonder if fermenting time and temperature is the controlling factor. Looking foward to your explorations in that area!
@@swc2019 using a stiff starter reduces sour taste and not fermenting in to high a temperature and not proving to long in the fridge. I
Thank you for that bit of info!
Bom dia mestre
This VDO answered all my questions. My kitchen can get up to 35 c and i have struggled to get a good (I won’t say perfect sourdough) My breads don’t raise, small crumbs, sticky and tough texture and shell. I am sure i will be successful with my next one.
Keep on going, you'll get there :)
HA~!!! I buy the same brand berry preserves as you do.
❤
Ehm , i have not seen any difference between those to. Am i blind?