Stop Over Proofing Your Sourdough, Use This Experiment to Find Your Optimum Proof
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Testing four different proofing times & combinations to improve my sourdough process. Plus a sneaky test to see how long the dough keeps proofing in the fridge during a cold retard.
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Chapters
0:00 The Process
1:35 Dough Recipe & Method
3:45 Dough Temp in Fridge
4:36 Test Subject 1
5:17 Test Subject 2
5:55 Test Subject 3
6:30 Test Subject 4
7:20 What’s next
#sourdough proofing 
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I've watched quite a few of these types of experiments on various channels, with people pushing the limits of variables like proving time, "over" kneading, sourdough starter timing etc. It seems that often the result shows that, while there is an optimal preference for each variable, the extremes either side are actually usually quite forgiving. This is reassuring for amateur bakers like myself
75% bulk, 2 hour proof and in the fridge works magic! The oven spring is amazing😊
Thank you!
Nice one, it’s great a great feeling when it comes together 👍
I think your methodology is spot on! Thanks for sharing your thought process. I'm excited to see how much of this is repeatable.
We'll see! Cheers Alexander :)
Been watching videos for years now, thank god I came across this channel, by far the best content out there! thanks for another fire video :)
I like test comparisons like this. I hadn't thought about comparing different proofing times vs different situations and its effect. Thanks.
Cheers Sheila
What I have been doing is bulk fermentation between fifty and seventy five percent in my oven with the oven turned off. It usually takes between two or three hours to reach that desired fermentation. I then form my individual loaves and place the baskets in the oven for one hour additional bulk time before placing them in the refrigerator for a twelve hour cold fermentation period. Although this process is not as controlled as your process it has been very consistent and produces a light lacy crumb similar to your preferred loaf from the video. I have experimented with higher proofing temperatures during the bulk periods and I have concluded that the room temperature bulk has given me my best results.
Dude this is the video i have wanted for the last like 4 years. I’ve just never had the time or motivation to run this type of experiment. Great great video, I would definitely like to see a range of these where you compare the % of bulk vs proof vs cold proof.
What if it's NOT like 4 years? Would it be LIKE 29 years?
THANK YOU! One of the best explained, least variable test videos about baking!
Pleased it was helpful Benjamin
Thank you for the time and effort you put into your videos - this is really good stuff for people wanting to learn and make great bread.
Kudos on you for stating the temperature of the fridge. No one does this. And it's bloody important~!!
Howdy from across the pond again. I'm sitting at 13/16 succes ratio thus far. I tried a few before using your recipe and techniques. Honestly with family, work, and school it continues yield great sour dough for my family every time. Thank you sir.
I'm really pleased that the schedule is working out for you. It's pretty solid!
Many thanks for sharing your journey. What i tested with spelt sourdough was 10% increase and 3 hrs bench proofing (75 to 100% rise) before cold proofing. I manage this way to get for first time few pockets in spelt bread. Open crumb for spelt bread seems to be very challenging.
in germany these big holes in bread are considered a flaw. as whatever you want to put on there is trapped in the holes. consider fresh cheese, honey or any type of jam, it just runs through. also if you want to overbake it with cheese, like french croque monsieur, the cheese runs through. so air pockets should be around 2mm in size, not more. the rest has no practical use
2mm? that would be very tight crumb, i think 3-4mm is still perfectly fine.
That's a different type of bread. Not all bread is the same or is made the same
@@crystinamcdonough9120 yes but what is the purpose of bread with big holes? to eat it single? cause neither butter can be spread properly. nor any other soft thing. also it takes more space, uselessly. and falls apart while cutting. ? it just makes no sense logically
Thank you for all your hard work and amazing video.
this is the exact kind of sourdough video I've been hoping for ever since I started sourdough.
so many other recipes call for less bulk fermentation, or more or less fridge time and there was never any consistency and it was really frustrating to know what method would give better results.
This video shows very well how the different variables affect the result
Pleased it was useful. There are so many possible combinations, more or less volume during the bulk fermentation, longer or shorter proofing in the basket. I think it's worth testing some combinations out yourself, pushing the boundaries a little and seeing what happens. Cheers for taking the time to comment :)
Thank you Philip for all your video's tips and great info you are an inspiration to us soughdough bakers out there.
Warm regards
Vera
No worries Vera, I'm pleased you enjoy the videos, happy baking :)
Very enjoyable to watch, as always!
Cheers Martha
Your crusts turn out so beautiful! (I like being able to enjoy the entire loaf of bread, including the bottom.)
I find baking on a good stone gives great results, especially for the bottom of the loaf. When I use my challenger pan I reduce the temperature to 210 and am careful not to pre-heat it for too long, that gives great results too
Thanks a lot this really came in a time of knead
Great vid as always Phil, and one I've been hoping you ( along with cold start vs pre heated) as it's been my biggest bad habit of over proving.
Certainly helpful, cheers mate
Cheers Chris. There are so many combinations to play around with. The cold start Vs pre-heat is on my list
@@CulinaryExploration have you thought about bulk fermentation to different levels, eg 35%, 50%,?
I know many who don't go to 100%, just wondered your thoughts?
@@chrisjones6439 I have tried down to 50% bulk, but my results weren't great. I did that in last week's video.
@@CulinaryExploration so you did, what a stupid question 😂😂
I am starting over with my starter because it got contaminated. I bought some straight sided canning jars that are ONLY for sourdough, and I also bought some sanitizer to clean jars and utensils to prevent future contamination. I also had issues with the kitchen being too cold over the winter, which made it difficult to have consistent results. I am pretty sure that Bob's Red Mill Artisan Flour is better than King Arthur based on my experience and it doesn't seem to be as difficult to obtain now. I am looking forward making some new attempts this spring/summer with these changes.
What an excellent video - You bake well sir!
The ear is all about the angle of scoring. French bakers are taught to score with their first finger knuckle pointing upwards to present the blade at an angle to the dough. I don't like ears, they make for sharp crust edges in the mouth. So I hold the blade vertically to the dough.
TBH This ear thing is North American fashion. Born of Chad Robertsons signature Tartine style. If you watch French artisan baking videos they seldom score ant an angle to make an ear.
If I might add though the fermentation is arrested in the fridge the protease enzymes continue to work, albeit slower. These enzymes 'cut up' the gluten structure and it is this weakened gluten structure which gives the large irregular vacuoles in the finished bread.
Having said that the enhanced flavour in naturally leavened bread is caused by the organic acids , mainly reduced by the LAB bacteria, reacting with the alcohol made by the yeast. These reactions are much slower than the yeast fermentation which is why slow fermentation and, or retarding in the fridge gives the finished bread that much more flavour. In both cases we slow the yeast and LABs to enable the organic acids etc time to keep up.
Superb video, great baking and thanks for the fridge temperatures and times. Excellent!
I love this!! Philip could the uneven crumb come a bit from your shaping technique which I have adopted. You handle your doughs much more gently than others do and as seen on many RUclips vids. I know because it took me a long time to change.
Could be Vic! I have just finished recording a session where I lightly shape one dough and where I am a lot firmer with the other! I'll find out tomorrow :)
Thanks for the effort you have been made to create such a nice video. I have a question for u . At what volume growth did u start pre-shaping your bread?
Great video! I do a lot of experiments. I live in the tropics so its around 27c room temperature. To stop it over fermenting overnight in the fridge I now put it in the freezer for half an hour once it's put in the banneton and then in the fridge overnight. This brings the temperature right down and it doesn't overproof in the fridge.
That’s very sharp thinking! Good use of temp control!
Have you tried using a cool box with ice blocks to lower the temperature and extend the fermentation? Ive had good success with that :)
@@CulinaryExploration yes I have but it's hard to maintain a stable temperature that way, particularly in the summer lol. I find it ok to ferment at 27c to 30c but it was taking too long for the dough temp to come down in the fridge overnight when proofing so the freezer trick has really helped.
Absolutely you are giving good practice might we asking our self about , I’m following you as beginner , but I’m facing a problem with starter and I been watched all your videos about starter dough and following ( floating test and smell ) but my dough never raised , my problem how starter is ready to use , thank you if you can help .
I like your new proofing fridge.
I use a reptile heating mat to create the perfect proofing temp.
It takes up a little less space 😁
Nice Gary. Ive got one too, I’ve been using in a cool box fir a smaller solution during winter
love the video and thanks for measuring the temperature v time for dough in the fridge to chill, i often wondered this. I knew that dough definitely continued to prove after putting it in the fridge, for a certain amount of time. Could actually do a whole video on how long it take ingredients to reach temperatures, for instance when making crumpets I like to use room temperature milk , which invariably I forget and leave in the fridge and heating up always ends up too hot. I often say to myself i, I wonder how long that fridge stored milk will take to reach room temperature! cheers great videos , Martin
Very interesting because I was recently struggling with producing really great looking loaves (externally), but inside I would have some random bits of very dense areas usually about 3/4 from the top and often in the center of the loaf where the volume is the greatest in terms of height.
I had been bulk fermenting to a state of very "jiggly" with lots of little fermentation bubbles. It's what many said was where it had to be . I was doing four sets of stretch and folds and I know the structure was there and my starter is very active, etc.
It was very frustrating. I use Robin Hood all purpose unbleached, and I'm at about 72% hydration overall when you include the starter hydration.
I decided to back off on the bulk fermentation time. I waited until the dough had some jiggle, but not a lot (about 4.5 + hours at 80 degrees F). Then I pre shaped it and let it rest for about 15 min. After that I shaped it and let it final proof on the counter for about 55 minutes (usually I would only be able to let it final proof for about 20 min. before the finger test failed and no spring back would occur).
Voila..the best bread I have made thus far. It sounds counterintuitve, but it worked for me. The crumb is actually much more dry which is great since it isn't as chewy when toasted like it was previously. The crumb is also fairly consistent regionally. Not really open, but not super tight either. I think that is more about shaping and the amount of tension I apply when shaping. I can play with that. The main thing is that those little gummy bits are gone. I'm super happy about that.
Now I can start final proofing it in the fridge again to find out how long I will need using that component since it does add a lot of flavor to the end result.
Cheers Magnus, sounds like you've got it spot on :)
@@CulinaryExploration Thank you my friend. You were a huge influence and a major reference point when I started on the journey.
Hmmm, sounds like my exact issue! I'll have to try your method!!! Do you put in the fridge? I wonder if I'm fridging too long 🤔
For the recipe I've created I can have almost a 100% increase in volume but if I don't have any doming near the top it can still be underfermented. I've found that different recipes can have really different fermentation requirements. There are just enough variables to keep us all experimenting.
Great job!
Cheers bud
Nice experiment. I agree with you. The las loaf has the best looking crumb. I don't know what has happend, but my control jar has stoped to work for me. The problem is that the control pease of dough is not rising in the jar for many many hours (and the main dough as well). And when i finally see it increase in volume the dough is overproofed. Can not understand why. It worked perfect before.
Amazing Mate! Great vid!
Cheers bud. Hope it was useful 👌
@@CulinaryExploration any tips on dough always collapsing? Not forming and always sticky?
"Flukey one-off" is the name I should probably give to most of my successful loaves...
I hope this will be helpful. I seem to get great bulk fermentation by leaving it out on the counter over night (maybe over-proofing) but in the end lack in oven spring. I haven't refrigerated my dough at all. I'll try your method and see if it helps. I've been learning a lot form your videos, thanks for taking the time.
Keep me posted Trudee
@@CulinaryExploration Okay, still no oven spring though the crumb is improved. I noticed as well that my dough doesn't hold it shape like yours when I transfer it to parchment. I sprayed the inside of the dutch for steam but it didn't seem like it would be enough (20 covered +25 uncovered @ 425). The scoring just looked like scars after baking, no ear at all. I did notice while baking the first loaf the second loaf and my test dough rose some while setting out on the counter. I'll give a report on the second loaf after baking.
I’m meticulously doing a 1-1-1 on my starter to improve its strength. Hopefully it will help with the oven spring. I won’t be baking for a couple of days so I’ll let you know how things turn out with an improved starter.
Thanks Philip for your video. I was not aware that once you put the dough in the frig it continues to ferment for several hours. I had a few loafs that did not rise very well and I suspect that 18-20 hours in the frig was too long.
Could be Al, worth considering
thank you, u have encouraged me back into "business" i also wonder how can i actually bulk ferment not in fridge and bake same day?
I ADORE READING
I have an ongoing problem: my crumb is always somewhere between moist and gummy. It is never flaky like store bought. However, The flavor is KILLER!! Everyone loves the flavor.
I’ve tried less water, baking longer, Dutch oven, no Dutch, rye starter, all purpose starter, short, medium, long proofing, etc. I am open to any and ALL suggestions.
Btw, love your vids!
Hi Phil, thank you for the very nice video’s! Did you notice any differences between the use of rice flour or semolina to seal the dough? I always use semolina so I'm curious to know the reason of your choice!
I always used my bread flour, but one day I tried rice flour out of curiosity. The dough isn't inclined to stick at all so I've stayed with it. Now I'm milling at home I may switch and start experimenting with the bran I sift out of the milled flour.
I like this...!! As myself is from India ...(which has different temperature during the seasons in different territory too....)
Thanks for this! New to the journey so this helps. Would you say the 75% + 2hr cold is closer to 100% rise once taken out of fridge (when cold ferment is finished)?
Gorgeous bread 🤩
Thank you!
I've been experimenting with levels of sourness and have learned some interesting things. I can increase sourness by retarding in the fridge for up to 72 hours. Each 24 hours adds more tang. I also found that I can bulk ferment for much longer (and thus increase the tang) by using a very young starter.
Still learning and loving it!
Interesting Dane, when you say "young starter" you mean recently fed?
@@CulinaryExploration Yes, recently fed and not fully ripe. I can increase the bulk ferment by a few hours and get more tang.
By the way, thank you for the videos! Super informative.
I extended my fridge time the last 2 loaves and got poor spring/overproofed bread. Wonder if I need to BF to 50 or 75% if I'm going to do a longer fridge time... agree on the flavor when it's in there longer!
@@chrisdeangelis4616 You do sacrifice oven spring. I think a good trade off is start your fermentation with unfed starter, then do the final fridge proof for only 24-48 hours.
@@999Dane hmmm, unfed starter? That's interesting. I guess you'd have to make up the flour/water you'd use to feed with... how much are you using?
Hello Phil. Lots of good facts. I was never real good at science in school. I believe that is why I suck at sourdough bread. Cheers
I sucked at everything at school, not just science ;)
Oh I don't believe that. You are really producing quality videos. You keep them to the perfect length. Great Job
I use a proofing box for my starter and keep it at 77 degrees. 🙌🏻
Hi Phil, thank you for this informative Video. Our life is not long enough to learn everything about this "easy" topic. Anyway, I am looking for 50-60% increase during Bulk Fermentation, shaping carefully, off course some bubles pop and depending on the Temperatur i leave the dough proofing in the Basket 1-2 hours bevor stsrting the cold Fermentation for 12-20h. I beleave you can have the most accurate resaults by using a PH-meter. Be carefull, when accidity increases the Gluten breaks down.
Hey bud. I've got a decent PH meter on order, looking forward to playing around with it. Do you find the crumb is a bit random with that length of bulk fermentation? I get a nice loaf at 50% bulk but the crumb is a bit all over the place
@@CulinaryExploration hey Phil, in my breads I am using 60% self milling whole grain flours, a combination of rye, barley, spelt, wheat and oat about 75% hydration and 20% of Starter. So my crumb and Textur are a little bit different. The breads are still fluffy. I find all your breads excellent, but i know we always try to improve our skills and method. In my opinion, shaping, scoring and baking are extremly Important to the appear of the end product.
I forgott to write, i use the shaping of john from proofbread in Mesa.
ruclips.net/video/WhmboEstDPo/видео.html
@@athanasiospapakostoulis580 I am testing the shaping right now! It's fun fiddling around with the process, I thoroughly enjoy it - have a good Easter weekend :)
My theory of why test 4 turned out the way it did: you allowed it to proof longer in its final form/shape. I think that gave you the regular crumb structure. The other tests were properly fermented but didn't have enough time or opportunity to expand in their final form.
3 was proofed the same way but bulked till doubled 4 was bulked to 75%
@@vincentlabruzzo5368 That's a good point. I guess #3 was overproofed in comparison with #4. I wonder then whether #4 turned out the way it did because it was given longer than #1 and #2 in the basket (final form) and still had more active yeast, i.e. not overproofed.
Bloody beautiful looking bread
I use 100% Einkorn flour for health reasons, but this was what I was going to try next myself (won't get as much of a rise due to the nature of Einkorn). My recipe calls for 3 turns but the dough gets really tight, I've suspected 2 turns with a bit more time in between might be the thing. I've already been doing 75% on bulk ferment and longer second proof, I feel it gives better results.
I find 2 turns is more than enough for this dough, it works well with a no-knead approach too. How long are you leaving it in the basket for?
Hi Phil! I've been following your videos for a while now and they have been immensely informative and love the experiments that you have done. It seems like underproofing or placed in the baneton longer to proof doesnt seem to have much effect on the texture. I have been getting a gummy dough and wonder if it has got anything to do with baking temp and duration. Would you be able to share any tips on nailing the right duration or if you would have plans to do a video on it coming up?
Have you tried pushing your fermentation a little further to see if that helps with the gummy texture? I'll definitely have a video focussing on baking temps and times, but first I've got more exploring to do in the fermentation process :)
I had issues after moving recently. The common wisdom is 20/20 for covered/uncovered baking. Well, after the first 20, your bread should already be 92-95C. In my current oven that takes 30 minutes.
I just used a little digital thermometer, poked the middle, and figured it out that way. Worked really well, but took a few bakes to nail down.
I’ve also been getting this problem. It’s not awful but not where I’d like it to be. I’m experimenting with cooking longer covered and less uncovered. I think that actually made it worse. I’m going to try reducing my bulk fermentation time as my kitchen sits around 22 so maybe 6hrs is too long. If you manage to figure out what causes it I’d love to know!!
@@CulinaryExploration yup I did! I've also been using your hack of taking out a little piece so that i dont have to visually gauge the size of the dough in the bowl. I'll stay tuned for that and enjoy the other videos for fermentation in the meantime :)
@@mattymattffs hmm, i guess it also depends on how big or small the loaf is as well. I suspect the internal temperature may not hit it yet so I've purchased a instant read thermometer and shall wait for it to arrive before checking it like you do half way through!
Great video! My oval shaped dough always came out to round. Do you think it's because of overproofed?
Could be. Why don't you do a couple of experiments, changing the proofs time and comparing the results?
I've been playing around with various soughdough recipes for a year or so and after 60 loaves have settled on a different , maybe unique method but I doubt it LOL. One of the things I do is use a hand held blender to completely dissolve the starter into the water before adding flour, my logic is to obtain a more even distribution of starter yeast throughout the dough, that and the thought of a blob of starter in the middle of my loaf doesn't sound good 😃
That makes sense to me! Baked goods often turn out a more consistent quality with thorough mixing in carefully planned steps. Please let us know anything else you have discovered!
@@helenjohnson7583 My method is similar to @Culinary Exploration, I feed my starter the night before so its peaking around 7am, I warm my mixing bowl and the water, to around 95F, for my dough, add salt and dissolve then add starter and blend to a soup, add flour and mix, rest 30min then fold, rest another 30 min then fold, I then bulk rise the dough in my oven with just the light on for 4hrs, not sure what temp the dough is but the bowl is just warm to hold, I'll check the temp next time. Fold and shape the loaf, place in a basket covered with film ( I use a , new LOL, disposable shower cap) for 4 to 7hrs at room temperature (my kitchen can be between 20-25C) . Bake in a fan oven @ 425F on parchment in a preheated (45min) dutch oven for 25min followed by 15min @ 375F dutch oven lid off.
My loaves burn if I don't turn down the temp, I'm @ 3500ft and an arid climate but I've found this method produces very consistent results for me. My dough probably only rises about 50% each time on bulk rise and in basket, not that much really and my starter rarely rises more than twice its size, nothing like most of the RUclips videos. If I could get a little better baking rise I'd be delighted, any ideas?
Is the bulk fermentation information in this and the previous video valid for non-sourdough bread? Is it directly transferable to non-sourdough bread?
Your loaves look so easy to work with! Mine would spread out if I didn’t bake them in a crock. I have rice flour but never thought to use it to dust the loaves. Why this over AP or bread flour to dust? I’m going to try your final proofing suggestions as well as your recipe for the bread. Fingers crossed my dough is more resilient like yours. Thank you for making these awesome vids. So incredibly helpful. I got my start by buying the book Flour Water Salt Yeast. As detailed as it is and a great lesson book, your instructions on how and why, showing things that work and don’t work as well are necessary insight. Again, thank you.
Rice flour won’t develop if moist as would AP or bread flour. Hope this was useful!
Great video, must show it to the missus, as this is her dept. Cheers
Great exploration, truly. Bit of a shame you didnt keep using the dough in the jar to assess how far things had gone during basket proofing and refrigeration. For the first part of the experiment we have real data, then anecdote for the second. If you ever do this type of experiment again i'd be very interested to know what happening with the volume and texture of the dough in the jar all the way through up to the point it goes into the oven.
My test bread - good sprang and ears, but tight crumbs and few big holes. Original plan test #4 - Bulk Ferment 75% / Proof 2 hrs / Fridge overnight, ended up over fermented 😅, senior moment ... did not remove control dough till bulk ferment, should adjust to 60% increase in volume or poke test. Interesting experiment and nevertheless bread taste good !
To keep dough at 25c environment - Bulk ferment using instant pot yogurt function low setting, when dough reached 25c, turned off and left finish proofing, about 4 hours. After shaping, heated 2 cups water for 3 mins in microwave, put banneton inside, when dough reached 25c, removed water. Dough was able to maintain more or less 25c both methods. Overnight in fridge, dough temp was 9c, should have put in lower shelf.
LOL Becky. I'm interested to know what is your sweet spot for the dough during bulk fermentation. Lots of people have told me that they go down to 25% which produces a good crumb. I get an uneven crumb at 50%, the dough feels a little spent, saggy, loose at 100%, 75% seems to be my sweet spot
@@CulinaryExploration Still hit-and-miss, been keeping notes and pictures. Used to go 100% or more, bread not holding shape. Start doing 75% which produce best ears, good crumb and shape, as long as I remember to check. Hahaha!
@@BTs-he1lg LOL
Hi Phil, nice work. I’m also curious to know whether you can repeat the results of this 75% bulk expansion and 2h proofing.
I like the fact you remain open minded about your results. I can’t tell you how many videos I’ve watched where home bakers do these types of experiments and then tell you with certainty what knobs do what in the end. They don’t realize that perhaps their shaping inconsistencies or scoring skills caused most of the differences in the final loaf. Or that they weren’t careful in keeping same conditions for all experiments.
There is one sure way to know whether you have allowed for a proper bulk fermentation- use a high quality pH meter. Once you’ve determined the proper bulk time (pH between 3.9-3.7), which BTW, takes into account all parameters such as temperature, starter inoculation, flour, hydration, etc., you can then play with the proofing time, keeping your temperature constant as you’re doing.
Check this video out, if you haven’t already seen it. ruclips.net/video/itZMYgh5ZC0/видео.html
He has another video as well where he talks about the use of a pH-meter. Enjoy!
Hey bud, I have a pH meter on order... I haven't repeated the exact result in the crumb. There are so many things at play but I enjoy learning what tweaks I can make while remembering that the final outcome won't be 100% determined by what I do, but that's what makes bread beautiful in my opinion. You've sent me down a rabbit hole with that video, haven't you...
@@CulinaryExploration Haha! I have faith in you, Phil! BTW, that Hanna pH meter he uses, compensates for temperature, which is critical to get an accurate reading. It can also be calibrated as he showed. I know most of the video doesn’t have subtitles but hopefully you understand French…😉.
You've got me going down the rabbit hole...
@@CulinaryExploration ☺️
Thanks
Thank you so much for your super thanks Cacao Mimic! Happy baking :)
You proof/ferment at 77F ? Seems a tad low to me, but im still learning. 🤔
Ive read that the various strains of bacteria and wild yeasts that comprise a typical sourdough culture scatter in their optimum temp preferences in the mid to upper 80's thru the low 90's (F), and slightly higher for things like thermophilic yogurt (95-104F). Yeast has a broader thermal range (ale & wine yeasts like 70's & 80's, lager likes 40's & low 50's), but the strains most suited for baking like pretty much the same range, or a smidge warmer. For that reason ive been fermenting my sourdough in the vicinity of 89F internal as a thermal compromise. For example, if I park a 1 kg boule in a 2L cambro, spray lightly with oil, seal it, then drape with a tea towel as a light thermal buffer, i cen proof in my digital food dehydrator set for 95F ... it maintains a rock steady 88 - 89F internal temp in my dough. If I wanna slow it down, ill move it to my fridge at 35F, where activity speed drops about 5 fold (i e. 3hrs at room temp is in the neighborhood of 3x5=15 hrs in fridge).
Anyway, im just sharing my method ... id enjoy hearing temp targets and maintenance methods by other bread aficianados.
What does it mean increase the bulk fermentation? Does that mean let the dough ferment longer than what it needs to and by looking at how many overs so it's not over fermented? Like when you say by 75% bulk fermentation and 2 hours poofing
Thank you! I will love to know if we realy have to put the bread in the fridge or we cane bake it after fermentation? Thank you again for your respond!
You can bake it right after the proof in the basket :)
@@CulinaryExploration Thank you 😸 I would like to know how meny times in the pocesse that we have to stretch and fold? Thank you so much 😸
I noticed you didn't talk about changes in flavour. Would love to hear the variations
Out of curiosity where did you get that wooden slab we see at 0:49? Ive been looking for something similar since I have a similar worktop to you
It's an Ikea kitchen island. The eventual plan is to swap the fake top out for a proper wood block, but I haven't got around to it yet
How long do you like to keep your dough in the refrig after proofing?
Very interesting experiment. But I am using 100% Rey starter and organic whole spelt flour, so it's not rising as a white flour dought
Hey Svetlana. You hit the nail on the head! That's why it's good to carry out your own experiments and see what works best for your recipe and temperatures. It's good fun and you learn a lot about your process. Let me know how you get on :)
How long did it stay in the chamber after the rough shaping
Wouldn't proofing it for two hours be the same as bulk fermenting it for an extra two hours, shaping, and putting it in the fridge? Does it make a difference?
Question: for the 75% bulk/2 hour proof, what did you base the 2 hours on? Did you monitor your “control” dough to see when it had doubled, then called proofing done? Or did you just go by feel/poke test?
Thanks for the videos!!!
I've been asked that a few times Maury. I did think about using the control dough to continue monitoring the dough during proofing, but couldn't really see the point as the main dough is knocked about when shaping. So once it's in the basket I need to use touch to gauge when the dough is inflated properly, that won't be connected to what the control dough is doing. What are your thoughts?
@@CulinaryExploration Ahh that’s true. At that point, bulk fermentation is still continuing - but all the control would do is show expansion of the control. I’m always looking for a crutch, haha, but need to hone my skills in feeling and “poke testing” for proofing being done.
Really interesting tests! Using your recipe has given me the best results yet but my bread knife is not up to these crusts! Even after painfully sharpening each serration, which I regretted this morning after it bounced off the crust and straight into my finger which now looks like my dough after scoring. 😖 I wondered if you could recommend a knife up to the task? Thanks.
I am putting a new knife through its paces right now! First impressions ar awesome, I'll update everyone in the community email and in an upcoming video very soon :)
@@CulinaryExploration Thank You! 🙏🏻
@@CulinaryExploration My current recipe is a one day bake (never had much success with refrigerating the dough) which often leaves me with baked loaves well into the evening so I pop them into large zip lock bags but leave them open, it softens the crust for easy slicing the next morning. I always slice and freeze my loaves to save them going stale before I get to eat them all
@@CulinaryExploration Thanks.... I think ATK did a test on bread knives and I bought the Mercer Wave 10" and that seems to work well. I happen to have 4 other bread knives (Henkels, Victorinox ...) but the Mercer seems to do well.... I also had cut my finger before and learn to cut on the pull back and not push forward. I go slow initially until the cut has created a channel before going faster....
Thank you for sharing your experiment....
why when I take the bread out of the fridge it does not stay firm in the oil paste and when I carve it it deflates?
I have a quick question...I was told never to use stainless steel with sourdough, only glass, plastic or wood. Is this true as I see you using stainless steel?
I found that retarding in the fridge ruins the piquant sourness. I like a nice piquant bread. So I inoculate with very very little starter ((10 grams for 1500 grams of flour) and ferment overnight at 86F.
Thanks for all your videos & research Phillip. I've converted to the "Phillip of Greece" (my label for you) approach. I'm in the midst of experimenting with this video's changes and find the whole 75% vs 100% volume - which sounded fine when you explained it - is pretty difficult for me to assess. How are you determining when the ball of dough has hit "75% more" --- do you have any time estimate for this increase? Thanks a lot! -- Cynthia
Hey Cynthia, I remove a piece of dough after kneading and place it in a jar and push it down. I mark the outside of the jar with lines so I can judge how much it increases in volume during the bulk fermentation.
@@CulinaryExploration aha! got it >>> I saw the small jar; now I see what you're doing. Thanks!
Im not sure by what you main by putting it in the chamber?? Can you explain pls.
What I would like to know, does any of these experiments produce the tang that sourdough should have, I have yet to find anyones recipes or methods that end up with those results
Man, I saw one of your other videos where you used an Allatini yeast package and was surprised, now I see your fridge with all kinds of Greek goodies, do you live in Greece? :D
I do buddy, Athens :)
@@CulinaryExploration Cool, let me use this opportunity to say thanks for the great videos!
Can I ask - when you say bulk ferment to 100% original dough, does that mean the dough is sitting in room air until double in size?
Exactly, the dough is sitting covered at 25c until it doubles in size
Hello! How can you tell if it's 50% or 75% proofed? What does that mean exactly?
is it a must to fridge the dough overnight or can i bake it straight away once its done proofing in the banneton?
You can bake it straight away. I like the overnight ferment as it improves the flavour and makes the dough easier to turn and score before baking.
Phil, wouldn't giving the 75% dough another 2 hrs put it to 100%? would be helpful if you had marked them 50%, 75%, 100% and so on instead of time. Always a joy to follow your technics and experiments.
Not sure Mike. The bulk is easy to measure by volume. Measuring the increase in volume in the basket is a bit more tricky so I opted for time. I found that 2 hours in the basket was perfect, but cutting the bulk from 100% to 75% made the difference in the crumb.
@@CulinaryExploration but you had that extra piece of the dough in the jar, so what was its total raise after 2hr proof?
@@szkribi you degas the bread when shaping, so you cant just see the total fermantation time as a whole. Shorter bulk fermentation and longer proof gives the loaf extra time do develop the crumb in the final stage.
@@PoolProblems but that's not the answer to my question
@@szkribi but i don't see hows that relevant, since the extra piece hasn't been degassed like the actual loaf in the shaping process.
I’m relatively new to south Florida and haven’t had luck with rise. The humidity is always over 70%, so I’ve reduced the water by about 10%. Still, my loaves are too dense. Any thoughts?
I'm not sure, to be honest Greg, It's a bit tricky without seeing your process. Feel free to ping me some pics of the process if you'd like, and I'd be happy to try and help (email on the website)
Hi Phil, great videos. Here in Malaysia the kitchen temperature is between 32c and 34C and humid.Its hard to determine the correct bulk fermentation time at that temperature. I know a lot of people in SE Asia who have trouble making sourdough because of the temperature and humidity. Since you have you temperature controlled cabinet it would be good if you could investigate making sourdough at these temperatures. I know if would be appreciated by a lot of people. Otherwise if you don't get time, can you document how to set up a temperature controlled cabinet like yours, one that drops the temperature to 25C. Thanks
Hi John, I've uploaded a video on the YT channel and have a blog on the website about the fermentation chamber. You could try using a cool bag with an ice brick to create a cooler area to bulk ferment. I'd suggest trying to create a cooler fermentation area rather than trying to make sourdough in 34c temps. I'll have a video coming soon on baking in higher temps. Hope this helps
Agree with Phil.
Sometimes my house has high temperatures here is Australia. I use a cool box (esky, drinks cooler) and regulate using ice cubes in a plastic bag. Works better than sweating out my dough on the 30° counter top
I live in Singapore which is just south of Malaysia and just as hot and humid. I too have had success using a large cool box with an ice pack to maintain a temperature of about 20 degC for bulk fermentation and initial proofing. Works well enough, except that there will be some water condensation on the dough due to the high humidity here.
Hi I'm in Philippines same problems but I now chill all the ingredients I keep 2 kilos of flour permanently in the refrigerator then put the nearly ice water mix in a spiral for 5 mins cover the bowl for 20 mins or so then add starter and salt mixing for 6 to 8 mins on high this gets the dough to the right temperature about 25c then straight into refrigerator for bulk fermentation folding every 1 hour 4x then shape put in bannetons or cush straight in the refrigerator and bake at 7am the trick is don't start until the heat of the day has gotten cooler like around 6pm 7pm good luck and this guys channel is great oh and try 60 % and one at 65% or higher hydration and you'll be amazed cheers
Man, I really think I have been overproofing my loaves. I was getting some really beautiful loaves then suddenly they all got flat with no ear... wonder if because getting warmer here? Even did the sample dough method. Maybe my shaping technique changed (last couple were very difficult to handle - been at 76% hydration so maybe drop back a tad...) 🤷🏻♂️
If the temperature has increased it will push the fermentation along quicker. Keep a close eye on the bulk fermentation and proofing stages and dial them back if needed. Decreasing the hydration may help, especially if the increased temperature has made the dough trickier to handle or has caused the dough to spread a touch more when you turn it out of the basket.
Katsikisio tiri (Goat feta cheese) and Total yoghurt... got some serious Greek vibes from your fridge!
And lamb on the spit tomorrow ;) - happy easter!
@@CulinaryExploration sounds great! Kali anastasi!
Great ,thank you.what was your glour protein content? I'm trying to bake with all purpose organic flour . When I retard in the fridge it came out great,but when I profe in room temperature it was flate- ish.wonder what happening here? I'll be starting to experiment with strong flour soon,or regular glour superintendent with vital wheat gluten.
My flour has 13,2% protein but I'm experimenting with new flour at the moment, plus I'm learning how to mill my own at home. I'd suggest experimenting and seeing what works best for you
Hi there,
I was wondering what kind of flour you use.
Regards Johan
Hi Johan, I'm experimenting with new flours at the moment. But up until now my everyday flour has been produced by Robin Hood and has a protein content of 13,2%.
I’m very new to this and it’s confusing me! So once you have your dough you leave it out to prove before putting it in the fridge?
I have to say I tried that with my last loaf and the crum was so tight which really doesn’t make sense.
There are many combinations Bryony and it's tricky for me to know what's going on with the crumb without seeing the process. I'd suggest experimenting with different bulk fermentation and proofing combinations to see what works well for you.
@@CulinaryExploration there are so many I completely agree, I will have a play around now I have watched this video and have your advice, thank you. The last loaf taste wise was amazing ( I used a mix of white and spelt) I’m sure that will change the rise also. It’s very complex but also very satisfying (even if it’s not quite right)
Oval proofing baskets what size are they
Ok, help me out here, because I'm getting lost. What is "bulk fermentation" in your way of doing sourdough? Many people teach that you knead the dough, put it in it's final shaping basket and "bulk ferment" it in the fridge overnight, mean the bulk of the fermentation and "proofing" is done in the fridge overnight. I have only had one time that that method worked.
I'm thinking your method is much like how you work with regular yeasted dough, with a first rise, shaping, second rise... then your putting it in fridge overnight for the fermenting part?
Am I understanding it right?
Hi Jen, I have only used this method to make sourdough. The dough is mixed and sits covered for bulk fermentation period, in which time the dough is often stretched in some form. After the bulk fermentation the dough is shaped and placed in a basket for the final proof, and then baked. I hope this helps :)
How do you measure the percentages of the bulk fermentation? like the 100% or the 75%? I find that very difficult. Do you measure it only with the small testing piece?
Great Videos! With even better looking bread!
Yes, but more coming on that very soon :)
Cambro makes translucent (polypropylene) and clear (polycarbonate) , food-safe containers with printed volume measurements and lids in various sizes that are not expensive. If you bulk ferment your dough in it, you can see the height of your dough to easily track the increase. I put a small piece of masking tape on the outside of the container to mark the starting point of the dough.
From the last experiment at 75% and 2 hrs in the basket, had the dough risen to 100% before retarding in the fridge?
not sure why my dough never stretches like that. using a 12.7% bread flour with the "how i bake sourdough bread every day in less than 30 minutes" recipe. i am using a scale as well.
Can you tell us more about yours proofing chamber ? 🙏
Very soon! I'm putting that video together at the moment!
I’d highly recommend the Brod & Taylor proofing box. I love it!
@@tarachristie472 Hi Tara, what's the temperature range?
@@CulinaryExploration It goes from 21c to 90c with 60-80% humidity and it folds flat into a laptop shape when you’re not using it. I love it!! I haven’t used it with sourdough yet though I thought a long slow proofing would develop better flavour. Maybe I should rethink that. On yeasted doughs I have found it a godsend. The dough rises consistently and doesn’t require covering because it’s in a humid environment already. I would highly recommend it to anyone that was an avid baker.
Thanks so much for all your content. I really love your videos!
@@tarachristie472 Cheers Tara!
To reduce chance of over proofing while in retardation in fridge put the loaf first into freezer for 1 hr. (30° lower temp speeds up drop)
So your dough is 70% hydration, have you try higher hydration like 82% ? You may found the bulk may have to decrease to 30%-50% raise before the cold restard at below 5C.
I haven't looked at that in any detail yet Chrissy, but I am looking forward to experimenting with higher hydrations and measuring the bulk fermentation. Appreciate your comment
@@CulinaryExploration thank you for all your effort.. and it's very interesting topic indeed
Do you know roughly how long the dough took to rise by 75 and 100%?
I'll be recording all of the times accurately soon, but 75% took about 5 hours and 100% took about 6 hours at 25c
@@CulinaryExploration i tend to leave about that long and mine often come out of the fridge flat rather than domed. Can never work out if im leaving too long or not enough! Thanks for getting back, really helpful video.
Interesting video. I watched but I missed the duration(s) of the bulk fermentation. Where is this described? The method I use is different. I don’t proof in the basket. I go right from shaping to banneton to retard in fridge. I may try to proof to see the difference but I always wind up with a nice open crumb. I also bake covered for longer (25 covered/10 uncovered) at a higher temp. So interesting to see the different methods!
Hi Tim, my bulk fermentation time was 5 hrs for the dough to increase by 75% of the original volume and 6 to increase by 100%. Cheers for letting us know your method. I don't think any two peoples scenario is the same and it's really interesting to understand how the processes differ. Cheers for stopping by
Why didn’t you take the sample after the kneeling? I’d have kept it uniform right up until you went four ways.