Instantly made my pull-ups and pressing feel 10x stronger and better. I’ve been f-ing up my shoulder and scapular movement with “down and back” for a long time. Thanks 🙏
I’m so glad you make these videos! I knew the cues I was receiving from other videos just weren’t right from the feel and especially the results. These little cues opened up a world of strength opportunities and postural potential. Thank you, genuinely
I can't thank you enough! I took your guidance and for the last two days tried to make it a habit to compliment my arm movement with scapular movement and it's basically cured my right shoulder's impingement issue that I've had for the last month and a half. I'm astounded, now I just need to make this movement a habit and never reach overhead with my scapula down and back.
I needed this video so bad. That makes perfect sense for me. I also get the scapular winging sometimes in certain positions and resulted in some shoulder pain. I will try this especially on my over head pressing 👍
I actually believe his word about the back and down on bench press But I just do it because that's the only way there's no other option haha And I make up for it by training Rotator cuffs with resistance bands
@@rdg665 look up Eden's test or Halstead's tests, these are literally tests for nerve compression by pulling the shoulders back and down. Don't take my word for it; look it up!
@@MSKNeurology It is always recommended to depress the scapula so that the shoulders won't be engaged in a bench press to protect them from damage. What is your point of view about that? As an example here. m.ruclips.net/video/ItVl70_M544/видео.html
Thank you for your many helpful videos. I basically started weightlifting without knowing what the hell I was doing and with absolutely shitty posture from being a computer nerd. I became super imbalanced on one side, I got some major thorracic outlet syndrome (nerve numbness and clamminess down my arm into my hand) symptoms from shit posture and form. I was doing rowing wrong on my left, weak side, anterior-rotating my scapula and mainly using my rhomboid. I was also doing shitty form on benches and basically everything, since I only followed idiotic bro-science for technique. Now I have a super weak left shoulder and nerve pain, and piss-poor scapular control on that side. Doctor says I have cervicalgia which I guess is just a catchall term for neck pain. So I'm working on strengthening my neck (I definitely had/have a badly bent neck, thanks for the "cervical hinge" informative videos) and getting my posture right (standing taller, extending the neck and raising the shoulders slightly). I'm also strengthening and activating my serratus anterior muscles because I think by benching so much with the "back and down cue" I had basically killed my serratus' ability to protract my scap or to even fire. With my new scap control, I'm working on rowing (without weights for now, and never past 90 elbows degrees again unless I have a good reason) in the proper form, and it feels so damn good to turn on my lats, my serratus and my whole shoulder again. Progress feels slow at times but I am deeply thankful that you have posted so many help videos and information on your website. It's great to know why the hell my arm feels numb when lifting, so I can stop doing it, and fix it. Thank you Kjetil.
I just wanted to second Julius-I am pretty much in the exact same position he is and your article on TOS has really changed my life. Now I've been watching all you videos and reading your articles trying to reverse all the damage I did to myself while lifting improperly. I really, really, really, really, appreciate you man, you're a blessing. Hope you get a whole lot of good karma coming your way
I knew that there was always something horribly wrong with my bench press, but I never knew exactly what it was. If I can overcome my current state of dysfunction, I would be so excited to be able to start lifting and working out the way I want to.
Thank you very much for your videos and articles! When can we expect next upcoming live courses? I guess the ones on your your Website 11/12th July have already took place in 2021?
I have a question, during the bench press it’s right that my traps are flexed/shrugged to maintain the position that you show? Do you have another tip maybe to get the position right? Very informative video, shoulder pain is better with your position but when bench pressing I feel too much my traps more precisely the region close to the neck.
So, I noticed when you were demonstrating the rowing movement, as well as the bench movement that you would demonstrate bad form by rounding at the shoulders. Now, for example, the rowing exercise, I've always been taught to keep the chest big and not letting it collapse when bringing the elbows back. Is it safe for me to continue bringing the elbows back as long as I don't round my shoulders and collapse my chest, essentially keeping the scapula from rotating the way you showed? Would be appreciative for some advice, thanks!
I struggle to find out the reason why the scauplar abduction is bad when it's often proposed for serratus strenghtening i.e. push up plus exercise. Thanks!
Too bad I didn't know about it 4 years ago. After many repetitions of Dumbell & barbell shoulder press + Farmer's walk with depressed shoulders, one morning I got seriously injured (felt like a neck spasm, I couldn't sit back then because of pain in the shoulder blade area) from a DB shoulder press resulting in a Neurogenic Vascular Thoracic outlet syndrome /some kind of nerve entrapment. And oh boy, it doesn't go away (Even with the provided protocol) My lumbar & cervical spine is perfectly fine, so there are only a few suspects. Unfortunately, about 6 months after the injury, I started to notice signs of mild one-side (same side) hip labral tear (deep wide weighted barbell squats, probably due to muscle imbalance). I also noticed I'm unable to sit without having buttock pain. I fixed the hip pain with PT but the awful both-sides buttock pain while sitting never went away and I'm unsure who is the culprit that needs attention (TOS/hip). I wish I could solve it without surgeries
This is fascinating. I wonder if you've ever done lectures, or are you currently trying to get this information out there so that more Physios and Orthopedists can adopt this new information? It seems pretty crucial.
These videos are absolutely amazing, thank you so much for showing the correct mechanics! I had one question, during the deadlift, or specially the RDL, should the scapula be in a slight upward and protracted position? Should the shoulders be "more" protracted aka. pulled forward during the bottom portion of the movement when the weight is pulling the arms downwards? And during the top of the movement, would a slight retraction (while keeping the scapula slightly upward) be fine?
We need to come up with a better cue than 'back and down', a lot of people also understand the 'back and down' thing as shoulder packing technique where you're basically setting the scapulas up for push movements. It's not literally depress it so far down which most people understand wrong about the 'back and down' cue
@@MSKNeurology I agree the cue isn't even remotely accurate since we don't really bring the scapulas down so much at all. We really just sort of engage the muscles around the scapulas but it's really not easy to teach this to someone who doesn't get the idea
@@MSKNeurology Would they be considered an overall easier movement for the scapula, since the shoulders would normally sit a good height above the clavicle during the movement? And just be sure to lock out at the elbows at the top of the movement to keep that scapula elevated?
Some questions (not related to this vid)- in which cases in the neck is it allowed to stretch it because it sounds like you are against it completely? Can I train my neck muscles every day or do I need days off in between? And why do all physiotherapists say it is worth stretching are they less experienced and less researched? I would be happy if you answer
Superb video, Kjetil! Very valuable knowledge in a content rich, but very homogeneous, subject. If you don't mind sharing, what are your thoughts on rib movement(repiration) and thoracic spine position(arch) on those exercises? It seems to affect both neurological and vascular systems, even the scapula biomechanics itself.
The respiration is too off-topic, but with regards to spinal positioning, T spine should extend as the degree of scapular upwards rotation and posterior tilting increases. Don't overthink this.
Hi , your videos are fantastic . I have a question , do you think that the push ups are superior movement than bench press ? I think during the bench the serratus anterior is only for stability and it isn’t an active muscle that press like the chest , on the other part during the push ups I think the serratus press and lower traps too . I feel the weighted push-ups more stable in the back and strong than the bench press , what do you think ?
Your stuff is wonderful! Thank you. Can you please comment about bench press and how scapular positioning would change for a powerlifter using a strong upper back arch? Because then it is closer to a decline bench, so it seems like maybe as in one of your older videos, the scap could follow the arm with less risk?
There's a cheat to get around it but I don't recommend it. Very hard to pull off without getting injured in the long run. Over-arched benching sucks anyway.
@@MSKNeurology how much of an arch would you recommend whilst performing bench pressing? It feels like the greater the upper back arch =the harder it is to maintain 'latspread' on the bench
Thank you so much for your videos and content. You have saved me from lower back pain. One question. On overhead press we should not bring the bar down to our upper chest/shoulders. Does that mean we should also avoid front squats and cleans? Those are exercises that place the bar on the upper chest/shoulders?
@@MSKNeurology thank you. I have shoulder and wrist pain doing them. Was wondering if the reasoning was similar to bringing the overhead press to the upper chest.
@@MSKNeurology i appreciate your time and the thought. I took your advice on arching the lower back. I stopped squatting low and pulling anything from the floor to maintain the arch. And it cured my lower back pain. Unfortunately I still deal with discomfort in the shoulders and knees. I think it’s the Olympic lifts. Even though I don’t pull from the floor, I still do hang power cleans, hang snatch and jerk. I use them to train explosive. But will drop them. There are other exercises to train explosiveness. Thanks again for your time.
I mess up my shoulder following advice of Pavel Tsatsoulin, Starret and other people telling that you should let elbow touch ear when doing weighted dips and similar advices. Total supraspinatus tendon and SLAP tear including insertion of biceps long tendon. Of course that was after a few years of wrong advice after another.
Just 2 questions: 1: I have trouble to do a lat spread if I lying on the bench. Any (cue) advise for that? 2: If I train my back with rowing pulling exercises and I do that like you do, should I actively retract my scapula at the end, when I'm in the parallel position? (thanks for your content and knowledge sir)
Ive been dealing with shoulder impingement for a while now, and have always felt uncomfortable in my shoulder during the down and back scalpula que… Gonna start trying these ques during my floor presses and other “getting back to my normal exercises exercises” and see how this affects my shoulders going forward.
Hi you're fantastic ! Question please : When you say " keep your scapulas up, just like a sort of lat spread" Does it mean in an another Way that we basically push each scapulas away from each other ? Cause i feel that pushing scapulas to the sides make them Also come up, like you on the video Thanks
I have a question separate from this about proper neck posture, when you say to bring the back of the head up to the roof and pull the chin down. Do you mean to tilt the head forward/nod forward causing the neck to come forward slightly? Or do you mean to pull the chin back while lifting the back of the head up so that it tucks the chin down and back?? Asking because when I try to have a long neck I end up tilting down and forward, thank you 🙏
@@MSKNeurology I watched the videos aha I just don’t know what you meant by pulling the chin down, it might just be that I have inactive deep neck flexors, thank you for replying, which video is the most accurate on neck posture? You said to tuck the chin in one video but I think in a future video you corrected yourself and others that the chin should not be tucked. Again, I can’t say this enough these videos are very well put together and well explained however it’s my own incompetence that has led to my lack of understanding, thank you :)
@@MSKNeurology yeah I was just confused because on your website talking about this you said this “ Teach them to pull the back of the head toward the roof and slightly tuck the chin, while also slightly extending the thoracic spine.”
Several years ago I may have used the term "tuck" to imply "down", but what I mean is "down" not back. This is clearly shown in all the videos. I made a follow-up video explaining the correction of the craniovertebral junction.
Would you say that these bench press cues cater to regular gym goers and not so much powerlifters, who have to lift a pretty insane amount of resistance and get into an extremely stable (and almost mechanically harmful) position? Thank you for posting! I had anticipating for a while.
Potentially, but I hate how these powerlifting cues are harming people that could give a rats ass about powerlifting because they are oozing into regular peoples belief systems
Hi. I am sorry if I am repeating a question if it has been asked before. But would you recommend avoiding touching the chest with the bar on the bench press? It seems like that range of motion would pull the scapula back, and elbows end up behind the body. On the rows you said not to pull the elbows behind the body. Would that principle also apply to the bench press? Would it be safer stopping 2-3 inches away from the chest?
Hey. I have a question. When i do rows with a wide grip my left shoulder shrugs up to the ear as i move my arm backwards and lowers back down when my arm moves forward. It also pops at The coracoid region. When i sit relaxed The affected shoulder sits a little higher than The nonaffected one. Also... The affected shoulder sits a little more retracted than The nonaffected one. Is this pec minor weakness?
Quick question KJETIL : Are we ok to say that it is biomechanically impossible with alien's arms to touch the chest during bench press or rows using the "lat spread's cue" instead of the "Back and down's cue" ? Because everyone thinks that I'm a noob in the gym for not touching the chest :'( and I tell them that I am from the future and that they can't understand ^^
@@MSKNeurology Thank you for your answer. I am confused in this case, because with my long arms and my small rib cage, the only way for me to touch the chest in the bench press was to retract my scapulas and I think I'm not the only one in this situation, and I have watched your videos over and over again, I do not see how to do in this case with the lat spread cue :/
@@ghost-qi4wt I suspect your elbows would be pointing far too outward (parallel to shoulders) which would decrease your range of motion because your wrists would be on a weird angle in combination when your grip width. Make sure your elbows and Infront of your shoulders and experiment with grip width that feels comfortable when benching
I’ve been looking for the answer for my upper back rhomboid achiness and honestly they’ve drilled the whole “down and back” thing in me so much that it’s undoubtedly the case that it is faulty mechanics since I have not improved. And I began questioning especially with rowing, how can it be anatomically optimal to keep the scap down and back through the whole movement? These ridiculous physios got me to the point where my upper traps are actually atrophied now and I can barely shrug any weight. Going to try what this guy is saying.
If you're struggling book a session with Kjetil. I also had a lot of aches in de rhomboid area, which is getting a lot better thanks to him. He diagnosed TOS and concluded it's probably the dorsal scapula nerve that created the ache in my upper back. Just raising my shoulder slightly in everyday life made the pain 80% less, after YEARs of working with so called professionals
@Westward Thinking hey man I've seen that you've had some good success with this. Would you be able to explain how you have set up for bench press with this technique e.g arching back or keeping it neutral? Plus did you get much soreness in the traps from keeping them slightly raised all day?
Kjetil, vil du være så snill å hjelpe meg? Jeg snakker bare litt norsk :P My complaint is my right side just doesn't feel or contract like my left side. I am right arm dominant. It's hard to get a pump on my right side when I work out, though I can get through the motions. I notice weakness all over my right side especially in bench press. My right shoulder is lower than the left, the shoulder is rolled forward and down. I have no pain, with the exception of when I sleep on it but it fades away fast. I believe I have scapular dyskinesis on the right. I have a compound bow and can't draw it properly for fear it will dislocate. Also, when I do wide grip pulldowns, I feel a pop in my lower lat, as though a muscle is grinding over a bone. I have been to physical therapy and nothing is working. What do you recommend, if you can? I feel really down because I feel like I cannot progress without fixing this.
when doing pulldowns or pullups we should avoid touching the chest or the clavicle with the bar, just like when rowing we shouldn't go full ROM, to avoid that forward rounding of the shoulders, is that correct?
This can be solved by changing the pulling angle by arching your upper back a little , You can touch your clavicle and keep a retracted Scapula that way , Think of it like a chest to bar pull-up , Same idea
You can touch bar to chest with full range of motion without rounding your shoulders. It's just you need to work on where the range you at. If you cant hit full range on pullups yet. It sounds like you need to digress and work on muscles on your backside. They sound like they weak
For the starting position for the military press should we have a slight posterior tilt with the elevation or keep them neutral with elevation of the scapula ?
As I said, scapular tilting (combination of PT and UR depending on whether the scapula is situated more at a coronal or sagittal plane) should occur when the arms elevate
@@MSKNeurology so no benefit in hyperextending? I know it won't help with lat/teres major but I thought it would help with rear delts. also what about pulling at 90 degrees?
@@MSKNeurology I respect your thoughts a lot! That's why I'm asking! Your videos have helped me out a lot. I'm only asking because my rear delt training has always consisted of hyperextending at 70-90 degrees. But if i may have only 1 question answered, I just want to know your reasoning on why hyperextending isn't necessary for rear delts. Thanks
It is complicated, which is why I didn't want to get into this in the first place, because it takes too much time and will only be helpful to yourself and 3 other overthinkers in this world. I already showed in this (?) or another video that when you pull past the body, what is more likely to happen is NOT shoulder hyperextension, but rather, anterior tilting of the scapula. Even if you were able to fix the scapula and pull into hyperextension, now you are putting abnormal forces on the joint and torting it. To get a good activation of the teres major and rear delt ,the scapula must remain fixed in decent position, as I show in the video. Only the lat will activate, really -- in a nondesireable way, with the scap in a wrongful position.
Hey man, I appreciate the video. A large majority of resources continue to recommend scapular depression and retraction and I have yet to find an issue with this method (for myself). However, I realize that although I initiate the movement with this initial retraction and depression, I have zero problems reaching an optimal level of shoulder protraction and achieving a strong chest contraction. It’s sort of like I am rowing the weight back to my chest to achieve scapular retraction, and then allowing my scapula to move as I reach full horizontal adduction. I guess my question is, is this correct? The scapulohumeral rhythm means we must allow a certain degree of scapula movement in order for the arm to move (in the case of the bench press across the body horizontally). Although I return to the retracted and depressed position after each rep, I feel as though I am still able to protract the scapula for a good amount of ROM. I’ve only seen you, and Eugene Teo cover this subject, and I’d be interested to hear more about it. Happy holidays!
I know what you mean, it's more of a neutral retraction, so you set up, retract your scapula but you dont actively squeeze it down and back, you set your position So for example, you set up your bench press, retract down and back (get real tight, you know that sensation I am talking about) then you go through your motion as usual, you mentioned "rowing the weight back to my chest" which is very good, that's why the movement feels so solid... So yes you are 'retracting' your scapula, but you're not ACTIVELY purposely squeezing it down and back and holding it's position, you retracted it, got into position, then allowed your biomechanics to peform in unison. in my HUMBLE opinion, the retraction of the scapula is a specific cue, for a specific group of people experiencing issues with their bench press, the trick is not to HOLD that retraction actively (consciously) but its merely to allow you to get into a tight position into the bench press, and to flow through the bench press natural having ANCHORED yourself to the bench I prefer to call it ANCHORING myself to the bench press, but I dont ACTIVELY retract my scapula the entire motion, I do the "lat spread" sort of flexion of the upper back when I am actively pressing, then I "row the bar" back down to me.... I think the problem with these types of cues is they run into being blanket generalized statements, when there's meant to be a caveat for them, they get taken too far to the extreme. So long story short, you are correct
@@David-lu4th awesome man, I like the retraction cue but I never really realized that lots of people keep it locked in throughout the lift. As you say I do it initially because it gives me a good platform to push from, although subconsciously I do allow my scapula to protract naturally. It’s pretty eye opening actually, as a coach myself for a few years now I really like this cue and had not considered that it may be affecting range of motion in some lifters, as in my own training It never did. This is great information, and thank you for the comment, Happy holidays!
I injured my AC joint after I stopped pulling scapula back during bench press. Doing it for 3 years with no injury and after few months of not pulling back scapula I get injury, didn't even realize I had injured it until I started noticing a bump on my shoulder. Of course it's only anecdotal, but at least that was my experience. Could be I started locking out my scapula without thinking about it because of my change in scapula position. Who knows.
Remember that the pressing trajectory in dips is DOWNWARD so the scapula should not significantly upwardly rotate and certainly not posteriorly tilt in this exercise.
@@westwardthinking6403 No because trajectory of pull is downward rather than forward. Much greater margin of error. In this case, the scapula should point forward and tip slightly down (but not depress). Like on a dip.
Just a follow up question on this- would appreciate your input! when doing pushing movements where we are pushing straight down e.g tricep pressdowns. Is straight elevation ( without worrying about anterior/posterior tilt) correct?
Slight elevation in a "semi latspread" basically? Interesting, been waiting to hear about your knowledge regarding these movements. Would like to know your opinion on scapula movement in a chestfly.
So on the bench you wouldn't touch the chest right, otherwise the scapulae would have to be pulled back to accomodate this. Furthermore movement of the scapula while the bench is restricting it wouldnt be ideal.
slight retraction occurs in the bottom before reversal. It's really complicated to explain. Try not to overthink details unless you're already a very strong lifter.
@Deep Thinking That's a half truth. As the exercise is done with humeral internal rotation, it predisposes one to poor mechanics as it encourages downwards scapular rotation. But it's not inevitale. Good control is possible.
Instantly made my pull-ups and pressing feel 10x stronger and better. I’ve been f-ing up my shoulder and scapular movement with “down and back” for a long time. Thanks 🙏
Same here bro
I’m still working on it. Nice to hear what you’re saying. Do you have any videos I could check out?
@@heyitskashmoneyNot sure if you meant to reply to me, you mean videos about scapular movement during the pull-up?
@@JSmillaa the bench press
@@heyitskashmoney I don't really do any benching but I think this guy has a video on that too
I’m so glad you make these videos! I knew the cues I was receiving from other videos just weren’t right from the feel and especially the results. These little cues opened up a world of strength opportunities and postural potential. Thank you, genuinely
This man speaks the scientific and common sense anatomical truths......listen to his brilliant advice !!!
Perfect! This is probably one of the most important technique videos out there. Thanks man, this should be a must watch for anyone learning lifting.
I agree
Instantly subscribed. Going to incorporate this information immediately, as most mainstream cues have caused me more harm than good. Thanks!
What kind if harm? I get pain from the nerve that goes into the pinky fingers
I speak for everyone when I say this was *the* video we were waiting for! Thanks Kjetl!
I can't thank you enough! I took your guidance and for the last two days tried to make it a habit to compliment my arm movement with scapular movement and it's basically cured my right shoulder's impingement issue that I've had for the last month and a half. I'm astounded, now I just need to make this movement a habit and never reach overhead with my scapula down and back.
Hey bro suffering from impingement since 3 weeks or so did you have deep pain in the lateral side of you shoulder and in the shouldee joint?
@@viralcontroversialshortsyt No sir, my pain was in the front delt/bicep tendon area
I needed this video so bad. That makes perfect sense for me. I also get the scapular winging sometimes in certain positions and resulted in some shoulder pain. I will try this especially on my over head pressing 👍
I also used to do the scapular back and down that so many videos say you should do, that also messed up my shoulder.
I had to double take and make sure that you were the same person as in the "dont back and down shoulders" video. Nice transformation hahaha
I actually believe his word about the back and down on bench press
But I just do it because that's the only way there's no other option haha
And I make up for it by training Rotator cuffs with resistance bands
@@rdg665 look up Eden's test or Halstead's tests, these are literally tests for nerve compression by pulling the shoulders back and down. Don't take my word for it; look it up!
@@MSKNeurology It is always recommended to depress the scapula so that the shoulders won't be engaged in a bench press to protect them from damage.
What is your point of view about that?
As an example here.
m.ruclips.net/video/ItVl70_M544/видео.html
@@Dispensationalism NEVER PUSH THE SHOULDERS DOWN
@@Dispensationalism ruclips.net/video/OSTqlujE9sw/видео.html
Thank you for your many helpful videos. I basically started weightlifting without knowing what the hell I was doing and with absolutely shitty posture from being a computer nerd. I became super imbalanced on one side, I got some major thorracic outlet syndrome (nerve numbness and clamminess down my arm into my hand) symptoms from shit posture and form. I was doing rowing wrong on my left, weak side, anterior-rotating my scapula and mainly using my rhomboid. I was also doing shitty form on benches and basically everything, since I only followed idiotic bro-science for technique. Now I have a super weak left shoulder and nerve pain, and piss-poor scapular control on that side.
Doctor says I have cervicalgia which I guess is just a catchall term for neck pain. So I'm working on strengthening my neck (I definitely had/have a badly bent neck, thanks for the "cervical hinge" informative videos) and getting my posture right (standing taller, extending the neck and raising the shoulders slightly). I'm also strengthening and activating my serratus anterior muscles because I think by benching so much with the "back and down cue" I had basically killed my serratus' ability to protract my scap or to even fire. With my new scap control, I'm working on rowing (without weights for now, and never past 90 elbows degrees again unless I have a good reason) in the proper form, and it feels so damn good to turn on my lats, my serratus and my whole shoulder again.
Progress feels slow at times but I am deeply thankful that you have posted so many help videos and information on your website. It's great to know why the hell my arm feels numb when lifting, so I can stop doing it, and fix it. Thank you Kjetil.
I just wanted to second Julius-I am pretty much in the exact same position he is and your article on TOS has really changed my life. Now I've been watching all you videos and reading your articles trying to reverse all the damage I did to myself while lifting improperly. I really, really, really, really, appreciate you man, you're a blessing. Hope you get a whole lot of good karma coming your way
How do it go Jalius
You have such an entertaining way of explaining that makes the topic easy to follow. Thank you for making such a valuable content.
New suscriber.
Very well explained tried it huge difference, anterior tilt on rows were killing my shoulders.
This is very good information and I feel like 99% of people just assume retracting the scapula back and down is the correct method
Great video man. This will help save a lot of people pain and confusion 💪🏼
I knew that there was always something horribly wrong with my bench press, but I never knew exactly what it was. If I can overcome my current state of dysfunction, I would be so excited to be able to start lifting and working out the way I want to.
could you explain how to do the bench press properly according to this video
Excellent video , worth the wait :)
Thank God
Excellent video! Covered a lot of my concerns
“And we’re gonna need some coffee for this one” 1:04 😂😂
Completely opposite to what I read before. Thank you. I will try. I hope my neck will feel better !!!!
Thank you very much for your videos and articles! When can we expect next upcoming live courses? I guess the ones on your your Website 11/12th July have already took place in 2021?
hi Doc, can we get scapular cues/correct motion for dips ?
I have a question, during the bench press it’s right that my traps are flexed/shrugged to maintain the position that you show? Do you have another tip maybe to get the position right?
Very informative video, shoulder pain is better with your position but when bench pressing I feel too much my traps more precisely the region close to the neck.
So, I noticed when you were demonstrating the rowing movement, as well as the bench movement that you would demonstrate bad form by rounding at the shoulders. Now, for example, the rowing exercise, I've always been taught to keep the chest big and not letting it collapse when bringing the elbows back. Is it safe for me to continue bringing the elbows back as long as I don't round my shoulders and collapse my chest, essentially keeping the scapula from rotating the way you showed? Would be appreciative for some advice, thanks!
really wish we could see a proper benching (military press and rowing) demonstration
This is GOLD
Tried this cue and... damn, I was doing push ups with just bw and I felt my chest for the first time in a long time.
Good lad
Do you have a Reddit we can chat on ?
So glad this info is getting more prevelant l. Its a shame this is not yet common knowledge
Hi. Can you recommend any other videos about this topic?
Does this apply when doing pull-ups?
really good info thanks
Been waiting on this video so long!
I struggle to find out the reason why the scauplar abduction is bad when it's often proposed for serratus strenghtening i.e. push up plus exercise. Thanks!
Do you mean retraction?
@MSKNeurology protraction in the positive portion of the movement. I happened to understand you didnt recommend in the video.
Too bad I didn't know about it 4 years ago. After many repetitions of Dumbell & barbell shoulder press + Farmer's walk with depressed shoulders, one morning I got seriously injured (felt like a neck spasm, I couldn't sit back then because of pain in the shoulder blade area) from a DB shoulder press resulting in a Neurogenic Vascular Thoracic outlet syndrome /some kind of nerve entrapment. And oh boy, it doesn't go away (Even with the provided protocol)
My lumbar & cervical spine is perfectly fine, so there are only a few suspects.
Unfortunately, about 6 months after the injury, I started to notice signs of mild one-side (same side) hip labral tear (deep wide weighted barbell squats, probably due to muscle imbalance). I also noticed I'm unable to sit without having buttock pain.
I fixed the hip pain with PT but the awful both-sides buttock pain while sitting never went away and I'm unsure who is the culprit that needs attention (TOS/hip). I wish I could solve it without surgeries
This is fascinating. I wonder if you've ever done lectures, or are you currently trying to get this information out there so that more Physios and Orthopedists can adopt this new information? It seems pretty crucial.
These videos are absolutely amazing, thank you so much for showing the correct mechanics! I had one question, during the deadlift, or specially the RDL, should the scapula be in a slight upward and protracted position? Should the shoulders be "more" protracted aka. pulled forward during the bottom portion of the movement when the weight is pulling the arms downwards? And during the top of the movement, would a slight retraction (while keeping the scapula slightly upward) be fine?
Don't overthink the DL, as there is no significant movement of the shoulder joint. Just put the scapula a little bit up an forward.
Should you arch during bench presses?
He said no matter which exercise you must lock your shoulders
Why does everyone else say to retract scapula? I’m going to try this since I’m having pain. Thanks
We need to come up with a better cue than 'back and down', a lot of people also understand the 'back and down' thing as shoulder packing technique where you're basically setting the scapulas up for push movements. It's not literally depress it so far down which most people understand wrong about the 'back and down' cue
To get "better" we need to be more specific. And when we get specific, it becomes increasingly clear that the cue was shit since its genesis.
@@MSKNeurology I agree the cue isn't even remotely accurate since we don't really bring the scapulas down so much at all. We really just sort of engage the muscles around the scapulas but it's really not easy to teach this to someone who doesn't get the idea
Excellent information. How would you translate these scapular kinematics to doing dips?
Dips are different due to the pressing angle (down).
@@MSKNeurology Would they be considered an overall easier movement for the scapula, since the shoulders would normally sit a good height above the clavicle during the movement? And just be sure to lock out at the elbows at the top of the movement to keep that scapula elevated?
@@MSKNeurology then what is a push up?
Some questions (not related to this vid)- in which cases in the neck is it allowed to stretch it because it sounds like you are against it completely? Can I train my neck muscles every day or do I need days off in between? And why do all physiotherapists say it is worth stretching are they less experienced and less researched? I would be happy if you answer
fantastic video sir, thank you
Superb video, Kjetil! Very valuable knowledge in a content rich, but very homogeneous, subject.
If you don't mind sharing, what are your thoughts on rib movement(repiration) and thoracic spine position(arch) on those exercises? It seems to affect both neurological and vascular systems, even the scapula biomechanics itself.
The respiration is too off-topic, but with regards to spinal positioning, T spine should extend as the degree of scapular upwards rotation and posterior tilting increases. Don't overthink this.
Hi , your videos are fantastic .
I have a question , do you think that the push ups are superior movement than bench press ? I think during the bench the serratus anterior is only for stability and it isn’t an active muscle that press like the chest , on the other part during the push ups I think the serratus press and lower traps too . I feel the weighted push-ups more stable in the back and strong than the bench press , what do you think ?
Yes but bench is more alpha
Your stuff is wonderful! Thank you. Can you please comment about bench press and how scapular positioning would change for a powerlifter using a strong upper back arch? Because then it is closer to a decline bench, so it seems like maybe as in one of your older videos, the scap could follow the arm with less risk?
There's a cheat to get around it but I don't recommend it. Very hard to pull off without getting injured in the long run. Over-arched benching sucks anyway.
@@MSKNeurology Thank you so much for your response! I really appreciate it :)
@@MSKNeurology how much of an arch would you recommend whilst performing bench pressing? It feels like the greater the upper back arch =the harder it is to maintain 'latspread' on the bench
Thank you so much for your videos and content. You have saved me from lower back pain. One question. On overhead press we should not bring the bar down to our upper chest/shoulders. Does that mean we should also avoid front squats and cleans? Those are exercises that place the bar on the upper chest/shoulders?
Depends on technique. They can be done in certain ways
@@MSKNeurology thank you. I have shoulder and wrist pain doing them. Was wondering if the reasoning was similar to bringing the overhead press to the upper chest.
@@victorcashwr Would have to see the execution
@@MSKNeurology i appreciate your time and the thought. I took your advice on arching the lower back. I stopped squatting low and pulling anything from the floor to maintain the arch. And it cured my lower back pain. Unfortunately I still deal with discomfort in the shoulders and knees. I think it’s the Olympic lifts. Even though I don’t pull from the floor, I still do hang power cleans, hang snatch and jerk. I use them to train explosive. But will drop them. There are other exercises to train explosiveness. Thanks again for your time.
I mess up my shoulder following advice of Pavel Tsatsoulin, Starret and other people telling that you should let elbow touch ear when doing weighted dips and similar advices. Total supraspinatus tendon and SLAP tear including insertion of biceps long tendon. Of course that was after a few years of wrong advice after another.
elbow touch ear in dips? how is that even possible?
Just 2 questions:
1: I have trouble to do a lat spread if I lying on the bench. Any (cue) advise for that?
2: If I train my back with rowing pulling exercises and I do that like you do, should I actively retract my scapula at the end, when I'm in the parallel position?
(thanks for your content and knowledge sir)
try to flex serratus anterrior at any cost. your welcome
As I said, if you can't do it then you'll need coaching.
Ive been dealing with shoulder impingement for a while now, and have always felt uncomfortable in my shoulder during the down and back scalpula que…
Gonna start trying these ques during my floor presses and other “getting back to my normal exercises exercises” and see how this affects my shoulders going forward.
Did it worked ?
Any update?
Worked for me
Hi you're fantastic !
Question please : When you say " keep your scapulas up, just like a sort of lat spread"
Does it mean in an another Way that we basically push each scapulas away from each other ? Cause i feel that pushing scapulas to the sides make them Also come up, like you on the video
Thanks
up please :)
Kind of but it's so easily misinterpreted.
Nice video very informative! Thank you
Thank you.
I have a question separate from this about proper neck posture, when you say to bring the back of the head up to the roof and pull the chin down. Do you mean to tilt the head forward/nod forward causing the neck to come forward slightly? Or do you mean to pull the chin back while lifting the back of the head up so that it tucks the chin down and back?? Asking because when I try to have a long neck I end up tilting down and forward, thank you 🙏
Why don't you just watch my videos on this topic?
Never pull the chin back
@@MSKNeurology I watched the videos aha I just don’t know what you meant by pulling the chin down, it might just be that I have inactive deep neck flexors, thank you for replying, which video is the most accurate on neck posture? You said to tuck the chin in one video but I think in a future video you corrected yourself and others that the chin should not be tucked. Again, I can’t say this enough these videos are very well put together and well explained however it’s my own incompetence that has led to my lack of understanding, thank you :)
@@MSKNeurology yeah I was just confused because on your website talking about this you said this “ Teach them to pull the back of the head toward the roof and slightly tuck the chin, while also slightly extending the thoracic spine.”
Several years ago I may have used the term "tuck" to imply "down", but what I mean is "down" not back. This is clearly shown in all the videos. I made a follow-up video explaining the correction of the craniovertebral junction.
Doing Pull ups or deadlifts commonly uses the scapula back and down cue. What scapula movement/cue would you recommend for pull ups and deadlifts?
curious also
Would you say that these bench press cues cater to regular gym goers and not so much powerlifters, who have to lift a pretty insane amount of resistance and get into an extremely stable (and almost mechanically harmful) position?
Thank you for posting! I had anticipating for a while.
Potentially, but I hate how these powerlifting cues are harming people that could give a rats ass about powerlifting because they are oozing into regular peoples belief systems
If my serratus anterior hurts when using him, does that mean that muscle is very weak and need significant strenghtening? Thanks in advance Kjetil :)
Should our shoulders always be up, or are there times when they should drop
Are there ever any exercises/times you would want to retract and depress shoulders. (for calisthenics or gymnastic movements as well)?
Retract yes, depress no
Take that Athlean x Mr know it all.
Hi. I am sorry if I am repeating a question if it has been asked before. But would you recommend avoiding touching the chest with the bar on the bench press? It seems like that range of motion would pull the scapula back, and elbows end up behind the body. On the rows you said not to pull the elbows behind the body. Would that principle also apply to the bench press? Would it be safer stopping 2-3 inches away from the chest?
Incline and overhead, yes -- flat bench, no
should i just lat spread when doing bench press
It's not that simple
Could you do a follow up to this video in the gym ? Atleast just for the bench press 😅.
Or a camera view of what your back is doing ?
See my video on upwards rotation
@@MSKNeurology thanks for the reply ser! Will rewatch it
Hey. I have a question. When i do rows with a wide grip my left shoulder shrugs up to the ear as i move my arm backwards and lowers back down when my arm moves forward. It also pops at The coracoid region. When i sit relaxed The affected shoulder sits a little higher than The nonaffected one. Also... The affected shoulder sits a little more retracted than The nonaffected one. Is this pec minor weakness?
Book a session and let's look at it
Did you figure out the issue ? I believe I have something similar
Can you make a video on how to stretch the chest properly too?
Should we be aiming to bench with neutral thoracic spine or try to maintain a slight arch still?
And what about the squats?
Any ideas on flat t spine?
I have same. Only cure is more musclemass gl bro 💪
Quick question KJETIL : Are we ok to say that it is biomechanically impossible with alien's arms to touch the chest during bench press or rows using the "lat spread's cue" instead of the "Back and down's cue" ? Because everyone thinks that I'm a noob in the gym for not touching the chest :'( and I tell them that I am from the future and that they can't understand ^^
No ide what you're talking about. I certainly touch the chest when I bench, and you should too.
@@MSKNeurology Thank you for your answer.
I am confused in this case, because with my long arms and my small rib cage, the only way for me to touch the chest in the bench press was to retract my scapulas and I think I'm not the only one in this situation, and I have watched your videos over and over again, I do not see how to do in this case with the lat spread cue :/
@@ghost-qi4wt The scap must retract slightly in the bottom
@@ghost-qi4wt I suspect your elbows would be pointing far too outward (parallel to shoulders) which would decrease your range of motion because your wrists would be on a weird angle in combination when your grip width. Make sure your elbows and Infront of your shoulders and experiment with grip width that feels comfortable when benching
I’ve been looking for the answer for my upper back rhomboid achiness and honestly they’ve drilled the whole “down and back” thing in me so much that it’s undoubtedly the case that it is faulty mechanics since I have not improved. And I began questioning especially with rowing, how can it be anatomically optimal to keep the scap down and back through the whole movement? These ridiculous physios got me to the point where my upper traps are actually atrophied now and I can barely shrug any weight. Going to try what this guy is saying.
If you're struggling book a session with Kjetil. I also had a lot of aches in de rhomboid area, which is getting a lot better thanks to him. He diagnosed TOS and concluded it's probably the dorsal scapula nerve that created the ache in my upper back. Just raising my shoulder slightly in everyday life made the pain 80% less, after YEARs of working with so called professionals
@Westward Thinking hey man I've seen that you've had some good success with this. Would you be able to explain how you have set up for bench press with this technique e.g arching back or keeping it neutral?
Plus did you get much soreness in the traps from keeping them slightly raised all day?
This is it chief.
Bench demostration pls 👍
I’m sorry maybe you guys call it different than in my country, but what rowing muscle are you talking about? Latissimus Dorsi?
Lats and teres major
Kjetil, vil du være så snill å hjelpe meg? Jeg snakker bare litt norsk :P My complaint is my right side just doesn't feel or contract like my left side. I am right arm dominant. It's hard to get a pump on my right side when I work out, though I can get through the motions. I notice weakness all over my right side especially in bench press. My right shoulder is lower than the left, the shoulder is rolled forward and down. I have no pain, with the exception of when I sleep on it but it fades away fast. I believe I have scapular dyskinesis on the right. I have a compound bow and can't draw it properly for fear it will dislocate. Also, when I do wide grip pulldowns, I feel a pop in my lower lat, as though a muscle is grinding over a bone. I have been to physical therapy and nothing is working. What do you recommend, if you can? I feel really down because I feel like I cannot progress without fixing this.
Hi book a session on my website
HOW TO POSITION THE SCAPULA FOR CHEST EXCERCISES PLEASEE (benche press, dumbell press, inclinated,etc)
There is no hope for you
@@MSKNeurology ohh shit, so want am i supossed to do? lol
how 'bout watch the video?
@@MSKNeurology i did it ._., but could not notice any part where u mention how to perfom this excercise. Or maybe i am just mistaken
@@MSKNeurologyshould have came out the wood works like "just retract your scapula in an upward position after you sip down a nice cold bud light
Can anyone make a video of this movement (pushups)? I've watched the video 3+ times and still don't get it :(
when doing pulldowns or pullups we should avoid touching the chest or the clavicle with the bar, just like when rowing we shouldn't go full ROM, to avoid that forward rounding of the shoulders, is that correct?
Exactly.
This can be solved by changing the pulling angle by arching your upper back a little , You can touch your clavicle and keep a retracted Scapula that way , Think of it like a chest to bar pull-up , Same idea
You can touch bar to chest with full range of motion without rounding your shoulders. It's just you need to work on where the range you at. If you cant hit full range on pullups yet. It sounds like you need to digress and work on muscles on your backside. They sound like they weak
For the starting position for the military press should we have a slight posterior tilt with the elevation or keep them neutral with elevation of the scapula ?
As I said, scapular tilting (combination of PT and UR depending on whether the scapula is situated more at a coronal or sagittal plane) should occur when the arms elevate
Sir, should I always be posterior tilting my shoulder? Is that what good posture is?
Is it the same with Pullups? The military press que? Up on the way up and up on the way down? Thanks
I've been doing "renegade rows" which everyone goes beyond the point of arm being pararell to body and it's injured now :/
Can you do a vid on temporal arteritis?
What's your thought on neurokenetic therapy? And do you have a therapist to recommend in Sweden?
Also, what is your opinion on LLLT treatment in conjuction with muscle strengthening rehab?
@@mirrekhan1607 I prefer to focus on my own work.
@@MSKNeurology fair enough. You just seem very knowledge so I thought it worth to ask your opinion on other aspects of the field, so to speak.
Sorry but I avoid shit storms when I can.
but for rows, wont pulling behind your back sttimulate rear deltoids? I've read rear delt are stimulated in hyperextension
Pull at a 45 ish degree angle and your rear delts will blossom
@@MSKNeurology so no benefit in hyperextending? I know it won't help with lat/teres major but I thought it would help with rear delts. also what about pulling at 90 degrees?
ah yes let's go back and forth on this a few more times just because. Follow my advice or not, it is your choice.@@bakerk5030
@@MSKNeurology I respect your thoughts a lot! That's why I'm asking! Your videos have helped me out a lot. I'm only asking because my rear delt training has always consisted of hyperextending at 70-90 degrees. But if i may have only 1 question answered, I just want to know your reasoning on why hyperextending isn't necessary for rear delts. Thanks
It is complicated, which is why I didn't want to get into this in the first place, because it takes too much time and will only be helpful to yourself and 3 other overthinkers in this world. I already showed in this (?) or another video that when you pull past the body, what is more likely to happen is NOT shoulder hyperextension, but rather, anterior tilting of the scapula. Even if you were able to fix the scapula and pull into hyperextension, now you are putting abnormal forces on the joint and torting it.
To get a good activation of the teres major and rear delt ,the scapula must remain fixed in decent position, as I show in the video. Only the lat will activate, really -- in a nondesireable way, with the scap in a wrongful position.
Hey man, I appreciate the video. A large majority of resources continue to recommend scapular depression and retraction and I have yet to find an issue with this method (for myself). However, I realize that although I initiate the movement with this initial retraction and depression, I have zero problems reaching an optimal level of shoulder protraction and achieving a strong chest contraction. It’s sort of like I am rowing the weight back to my chest to achieve scapular retraction, and then allowing my scapula to move as I reach full horizontal adduction.
I guess my question is, is this correct? The scapulohumeral rhythm means we must allow a certain degree of scapula movement in order for the arm to move (in the case of the bench press across the body horizontally). Although I return to the retracted and depressed position after each rep, I feel as though I am still able to protract the scapula for a good amount of ROM.
I’ve only seen you, and Eugene Teo cover this subject, and I’d be interested to hear more about it. Happy holidays!
I know what you mean, it's more of a neutral retraction, so you set up, retract your scapula but you dont actively squeeze it down and back, you set your position
So for example, you set up your bench press, retract down and back (get real tight, you know that sensation I am talking about) then you go through your motion as usual, you mentioned "rowing the weight back to my chest" which is very good, that's why the movement feels so solid...
So yes you are 'retracting' your scapula, but you're not ACTIVELY purposely squeezing it down and back and holding it's position, you retracted it, got into position, then allowed your biomechanics to peform in unison.
in my HUMBLE opinion, the retraction of the scapula is a specific cue, for a specific group of people experiencing issues with their bench press, the trick is not to HOLD that retraction actively (consciously) but its merely to allow you to get into a tight position into the bench press, and to flow through the bench press natural having ANCHORED yourself to the bench
I prefer to call it ANCHORING myself to the bench press, but I dont ACTIVELY retract my scapula the entire motion, I do the "lat spread" sort of flexion of the upper back when I am actively pressing, then I "row the bar" back down to me....
I think the problem with these types of cues is they run into being blanket generalized statements, when there's meant to be a caveat for them, they get taken too far to the extreme.
So long story short, you are correct
@@David-lu4th awesome man, I like the retraction cue but I never really realized that lots of people keep it locked in throughout the lift. As you say I do it initially because it gives me a good platform to push from, although subconsciously I do allow my scapula to protract naturally. It’s pretty eye opening actually, as a coach myself for a few years now I really like this cue and had not considered that it may be affecting range of motion in some lifters, as in my own training It never did. This is great information, and thank you for the comment, Happy holidays!
www.apicareonline.com/index.php/APIC/article/view/597/798
I injured my AC joint after I stopped pulling scapula back during bench press. Doing it for 3 years with no injury and after few months of not pulling back scapula I get injury, didn't even realize I had injured it until I started noticing a bump on my shoulder. Of course it's only anecdotal, but at least that was my experience.
Could be I started locking out my scapula without thinking about it because of my change in scapula position. Who knows.
Would you recommend doing a DB bench press from the floor? Is there any issue in opting for this over using an actual bench? Thanks
damn I was two years late into discovering this video
So basically in over head press its okay to push it back a little bit if upward rotation occured? Seems like Chinese weightlifters do it in such way.
Depends on elbow trajectory
How do the mechanics differ in dips? Sounds like there would be a lot of anterior tilting doing them. How can one ensure healthy technique doing them?
Remember that the pressing trajectory in dips is DOWNWARD so the scapula should not significantly upwardly rotate and certainly not posteriorly tilt in this exercise.
@@MSKNeurology Should the shoulder blades slightly depress during dips?
@@MrHumptyDumpty Slight elevation and anterior tilting. Not depress.
@@MSKNeurology ok so not as elevated as bench press? I meant more depressed than bench press position.
@@MSKNeurology thanks
Bench press @3:20
Wouldn't having the scapula in a position that isn't retracted make you have a less stable connection to the bench and make you leak energy?
No, then you're pulling them too far forward (overly protracted)
@@MSKNeurology ok thanks
Hello! How can I do a zoom meeting with you? Both of my ears are clogged and Im having TMD isues that causes me vertigo and ETD. Please help me.
Does the bench press setup change in any way when doing incline press?
A little. More load on the trap and a slightly greater upwards rotation is needed. The short answer: not really.
@@westwardthinking6403 No because trajectory of pull is downward rather than forward. Much greater margin of error. In this case, the scapula should point forward and tip slightly down (but not depress). Like on a dip.
@@westwardthinking6403 Anterior tilt, yes. Farmer straight up.
Just a follow up question on this- would appreciate your input! when doing pushing movements where we are pushing straight down e.g tricep pressdowns. Is straight elevation ( without worrying about anterior/posterior tilt) correct?
If this guy can bench his bodyweight for reps with his technique, ill follow the info
Slight elevation in a "semi latspread" basically? Interesting, been waiting to hear about your knowledge regarding these movements.
Would like to know your opinion on scapula movement in a chestfly.
Not making a video on that useless topic. Watch my video on the importance of scapular medial rotation
@@MSKNeurology Sure, thanks.
So on the bench you wouldn't touch the chest right, otherwise the scapulae would have to be pulled back to accomodate this. Furthermore movement of the scapula while the bench is restricting it wouldnt be ideal.
slight retraction occurs in the bottom before reversal. It's really complicated to explain. Try not to overthink details unless you're already a very strong lifter.
@@MSKNeurology Thank you!
Hey Kjetil, I just noticed your website is down :( Will it be back online soon? Hope all is well.
Some articles got hacked with a virus. It has been resolved.
So pull ups have same scapula movement as overhead press but reversed movement? For dips it's same scapula position as bench press?
Dips can allow some anterior rotation of the scapula as long as you're not pulling it down. The dip is kind of difficult to do right.
during rowing , why dont we just retract ? is it bad ?
Disengages the teres major. Makes your back smaller. Promotes scapular dyskinesia.
Upright rows less so, but horizontal rows and pulldowns, definitely.
@Deep Thinking That's a half truth. As the exercise is done with humeral internal rotation, it predisposes one to poor mechanics as it encourages downwards scapular rotation. But it's not inevitale. Good control is possible.
Are you still available for skype consults? How do i go about it?
Hello. How do I book a skype consult with you ?
How massive is he now!!
9:21 Did you just say wide grip bench press is good??! Wide grip bench press is horrible for the shoulder.
Safer not to comment if you don't understand a word that's being said
He was talking about a wider bench pillow..not a wider grip
Yes wider pillow with also a moderate dose of Robitussin for a better night's sleep